Arsenal
Decline at Arsenal - How did we get here?
Those were the days
By Radio Free Arsenal
July 14 2012
Part I – The Basic Issue One of my favourite song lyrics is from the Talking Heads “Once in a Lifetime” goes like this “And you may find yourself asking ….Well….how did I get here?” or for today “Well….how did Arsenal get HERE?” Indeed I think for the past several years many Gooners have also been asking “How did WE get HERE?” after the amazing run of historical success the football club and team achieved from 1998-2005. A period of excellence truly only matched at Arsenal in the Pre-War years under the immortal Herbert Chapman. Not even the often underappreciated glories and successes of the George Graham Era (bar one magical May night in 1989) approaches either era honestly though it’s not so far off either as some insist..
So many rightly find the fall from grace of this great club and the great sides that Arsene Wenger put together during that golden era difficult to comprehend and wonder how or why this happened and how and if it can be corrected.
Well let’s take a look
As I noted above 1998-2005 was perhaps the greatest single run of competitive success ever at Arsenal FC, with only the 1930’s under Chapman and Allison, and possibly the George Graham Era to compare.
However, 1998-2005 really stands alone for me – perhaps in part because I really saw all of it in real time. But also because it was a truly unique era which saw Arsenal not simply achieve greater more consistent competitive success than at any other time.
From 1998-2005 the club won more honours than at any other time in our illustrious and honour-laden history. Winning the FA Cup four times, and the League and Cup Double twice. We also of course achieved an unprecedented, in the 20th and 21 st centuries, Invincible season in 2004.
And that is hardly all. Unbeaten runs of 20 League matches in 1997-98, 32 League matches in 2001-2002, and of course 49 League matches in 2003-2004. Going unbeaten away in the Premiership in the entire 2001-2002 season as well obviously as the 2003-2004 season (when we did the same at home of course). When did any of Wenger's teams go on such a run in recent times?
All achieved with a style, dynamism, and flare unseen at Arsenal before as players like Patrick Vieira, Thierry Henry, Robert Pires, Freddie Ljungberg,, Sol Campbell ,Marc Overmars, Jose Reyes, Lauren, Jens Lehmann,., Gilberto Silva, Emmanuel Petit,, Kolo Toure, and Ashley Cole, just to name a few, all helped revolutionize Arsenal. It was not merely the success it achieved but the manner the club achieved it “Boring Boring Arsenal “ became ironic sarcasm hurled back by Gooners at fans of other clubs. Many of these players will be considered the best players ever seen at Arsenal decades from now, and some will be considered the best ever seen in English football.
Many of the players that initially achieved much of this with Arsenal were already legends like Tony Adams, Denis Bergkamp, David Seaman, Ray Parlour, Nigel Winterburn, Lee Dixon, Marin Keown, Steve Bould, and Ian Wright. But by 2001-2002 this was truly Wenger’s team. It could hardly have been better, Arsenal finished in the top two in the Premiership every single season, and could easily have finished first in 98-99 and 02-03.
So not only were the team actually winning more honours than it ever had, but it was in real contention to win even more than it actually did by a small margin. Which only highlights that much more just how historical, and even arguably unprecedented the success of Arsenal Football Club from 1998-2005 under Arsene Wenger really was.
The turning point and decline
From 2005 (more specifically the 2005-2006 Season) to now, well, there is no other way to put it, but tosay there has been a historical decline from the Wenger glory days.
Not a disastrous decline necessarily from a historical context but relative to 1998-2005 the decline from 2006-2012 is almost unprecedented at any top football club certainly in the Post-War Era, certainly in its suddenness and sharpness if not steepness..
Its not just the lack of silverware, the complete lack of it in this time, but the almost complete reduction to the point of disappearance of real opportunities to contend for it. Yes Arsenal reached the Champions League Final in Paris in 06, and two League Cup Finals in 07 and 11, but not once a finish in the Premiership top two, or the FA Cup Final.
Indeed it has been more a matter of sweating it out to win the final Champions league place, or scrapping with Spurs for a CL place more often since 2006 than winning anything of competitive value..
Not just about trophies
Clearly the team’s quality, skill, and willpower have diminished individually and collectively since 2006 though not as drastically as some would fear, but then again not as little as some would hope or believe.
From 1998-2005 the club averaged a finish of between first and second place and finished two total points behind Manchester United, won seven trophies to their eight and was well ahead of any other club.
But since 2006 the average finish is between third and fourth and finished and more often than not fourth after a struggle and we have finished a total of100 points behind United .The Gunners have gone trophy-less while United has won seven. Arsenal have won an average of 72 points each season, and have finished on average fifteen points behind the League Champions.
How sharp or serious this decline is can be debated. But what cannot be debated is that it is real and is ongoing and still begs the question “Well….how did WE get HERE?” We will look at this issue in the next section to be published.
End part 1
For Part 2 click on link below story
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StumbleuponDecline at Arsenal - How did we get here?
Discussion started by Arsenal Times , 14/07/2012 19:26
Arsenal Times
14/07/2012 19:26
14/07/2012 19:26
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:07:21:20:17:08 by Padre Pio.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:07:21:20:17:08 by Padre Pio.
How did we get here? Your summery is very short term in it`s assessment and maybe you should take a look at our history over the long term, to get a better analysis.
You talk about other eras of success, but fail to mention the many,many years of our club without success.
If you look at a time-scale graph of Arsenal`s success in the old 1st div and the FAPL, you will see that, where we are at present, above what our medium is, over that time-frame.
In other words, Arsenal have gone better in the last 15 years than we`ve ever done before, in our success rate.
How did we get here? Because we have one of the best managers in the business.
Since the end of WW1, 1919, when the FA restarted its 4 tier football league, with Arsenal fc in the 1st div, there’s only ever been one club to have never been relegated from Div 1/ EPL.
Arsenal fc
Let’s keep making history
You talk about other eras of success, but fail to mention the many,many years of our club without success.
If you look at a time-scale graph of Arsenal`s success in the old 1st div and the FAPL, you will see that, where we are at present, above what our medium is, over that time-frame.
In other words, Arsenal have gone better in the last 15 years than we`ve ever done before, in our success rate.
How did we get here? Because we have one of the best managers in the business.
Since the end of WW1, 1919, when the FA restarted its 4 tier football league, with Arsenal fc in the 1st div, there’s only ever been one club to have never been relegated from Div 1/ EPL.
Arsenal fc
Let’s keep making history
Quote:weedz
How did we get here? Your summery is very short term in it`s assessment and maybe you should take a look at our history over the long term, to get a better analysis.
You talk about other eras of success, but fail to mention the many,many years of our club without success.
If you look at a time-scale graph of Arsenal`s success in the old 1st div and the FAPL, you will see that, where we are at present, above what our medium is, over that time-frame.
In other words, Arsenal have gone better in the last 15 years than we`ve ever done before, in our success rate.
How did we get here? Because we have one of the best managers in the business.
As you're looking at our whole history then our most sucessful period was the 30's - 5 titles in 8 seasons incl. 1 FA cup.
The last 7 years haven't been particularly sucessful when you consider the advantage we've had from the the millions of CL money which 16 teams haven't had.
Wenger was brilliant in 1998-2006, since then I think he's become stale, set in his ways, & obsessed with certain beliefs rather than moving with the times. All to the detriment of the team, & it's cost us success when we've had chances over the last 6 years.
the difference between some of those prolongued drought periods and now is that we have the resources to be doing a lot better.
Something or someone in the club is holding us back. People have different opinions as to what or whom this is though.
Something or someone in the club is holding us back. People have different opinions as to what or whom this is though.
Dennis BergKamp Arsenal 1995–2006.
Theodore roosevelt - In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.
Theodore roosevelt - In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.
i don't even know what to say about what is going on except to wear my jersey with pride!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can We Now Trust The Process 🤔🤷🏿♀️ or Should We Still Remain Cautious 🙇🏿♀️
Can We Now Trust The Process 🤔🤷🏿♀️ or Should We Still Remain Cautious 🙇🏿♀️
Quote:Gunners R Us
the difference between some of those prolongued drought periods and now is that we have the resources to be doing a lot better.
Something or someone in the club is holding us back. People have different opinions as to what or whom this is though.
exactly. And its a good piece by RadioFree. Despite all the p*sstaking he has to put up with on a daily basis, he's got the presence of mind to put an article up. Which a lot of people wont do. So fair play.
Quote:weedz
How did we get here? Your summery is very short term in it`s assessment and maybe you should take a look at our history over the long term, to get a better analysis.
You talk about other eras of success, but fail to mention the many,many years of our club without success.
If you look at a time-scale graph of Arsenal`s success in the old 1st div and the FAPL, you will see that, where we are at present, above what our medium is, over that time-frame.
In other words, Arsenal have gone better in the last 15 years than we`ve ever done before, in our success rate.
How did we get here? Because we have one of the best managers in the business.
Much of what you say is quite accurate weedz, as Arsenal have won a trophy in every decade after 1929 bar the 1960'as a record of historically consistent success unrivalled by any other English Club. And certainly there have been peaks and valleys in that success and one would rightly anticipate or expect over that length of time.
The real question however is does that reality genuinely have anything to do with this current decline? s this just an instance of history deciding it's about time to work against Arsenal for awhile again, just circumstance of the moment?
I don't think so in this case. I don't think that to say that because in fact we have had peaks and valleys in the past and we know we will again because every team in every sport does inevitably, that reality in fact dismisses the issue of this decline so quickly from such a high position again achieved relatively quickly at Arsenal.
As a rule of thumb isn't there meant to be at least five points in any feature which your average reader may not know.
It's well written and well researched but really the main content of it isn't something we didn't already know.
It's well written and well researched but really the main content of it isn't something we didn't already know.
Firstly I will consider any well written article from any viewpoint for publication.
Secondly it is quite clear if you read RFA that he is writing about the key successful periods in the club's history. Thus he mentions the 30s, and the Graham period.
Thus he is comparing periods of high success of which he argues the most successful was 1998-2005. From that highpoint it is clear that Arsenal have descended from the giddy heights.
It is not his intentions to write a year by year summary of all the shite seasons we have had over the years.The reason for this will become even clearer in his second part of this series.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Secondly it is quite clear if you read RFA that he is writing about the key successful periods in the club's history. Thus he mentions the 30s, and the Graham period.
Thus he is comparing periods of high success of which he argues the most successful was 1998-2005. From that highpoint it is clear that Arsenal have descended from the giddy heights.
It is not his intentions to write a year by year summary of all the shite seasons we have had over the years.The reason for this will become even clearer in his second part of this series.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Interesting analysis of cumulative points totals and distance from league leaders. Would suggest it's partly a cyclical thing, as in clubs have peaks and troughs that interact with those over their rivals. United were particularly strong when Ronaldo started to mature for example, and Chelsea were relentless point-takers over the period where we trailed.
I enjoy reading your posts Radio and I'm enjoying reading this. I like the angle and am interested to see how you think we got here.
Agree strongly with GRUs point.
Agree strongly with GRUs point.
Shane says that every reader knows these facts, possibly so, but many deny the conclusion they still say there is no decline and Wenger is about to hit the jackpot any moment.
Including Wenger's stupidist statement ever when he claimed the squad of two years ago was his best ever.
It never hurts to remind ourselves where we have been.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Including Wenger's stupidist statement ever when he claimed the squad of two years ago was his best ever.
It never hurts to remind ourselves where we have been.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
No mention of course about Abramovich's hundreds of millions, Mansours billion, our new stadium and the austerity measures for 8 years imposed to complete it, the front loaded sponsorships we had to undertake, ManU's massive debts and massive spending, 6 years of chronic injuries, the break-up of the best team in English domestic football history.
Obviously not worth mentioning as they are clearly mear side issues when put alongside the list of reasons Radio has mentioned in his article. Except he hasn't.
Which completely contradicts the title of this post. A post which, as Shane points out, contains nothing we didn't already know.
Part 2? Brace yourselves for another unsubstantiated rant about Arsenal's 'Board' and how poorly and corruptly they have run the Club.
Obviously not worth mentioning as they are clearly mear side issues when put alongside the list of reasons Radio has mentioned in his article. Except he hasn't.
Which completely contradicts the title of this post. A post which, as Shane points out, contains nothing we didn't already know.
Part 2? Brace yourselves for another unsubstantiated rant about Arsenal's 'Board' and how poorly and corruptly they have run the Club.
My reading of Arsenals recent history is that the horse has now bolted. The club cannot compete with Chelsea or Man City, there is no reason why it should be able to. Whether or not it should charge the seat prices it does then come into it, but they've even started to experiment in that regard and I think there are clear signs that season ticket uptake and attendances are on the downturn which should bring about some interesting times to come.
However, I will NEVER understand how Wenger lost the killer instinct that could have made successes of both the 2007-2008 and 2010-2011 seasons. Both seasons we were at the top of the league at the mid point, in 2008 we were 5 points clear the date we beat Blackburn 2-0. Both of these seasons Man City were not a factor yet, and Chelsea, due to Abramovics tinkering with his managers, were in a weak position. Both times EVERYBODY was crying out for a couple of signings, not even your rolls royce signings, just options, mainly defensive, and for AW to get rid of the selection of comedy goalkeepers that he continued to stick with until about 2 years later when he suddenly realised they were er, sh*t. This wasnt about sugar daddies, arab millions, Uniteds debt, the signings we needed to make were well within the range of the club and wouldnt have even threatened our financial state. In fact, in many cases, Wenger went and made the signings we needed, or dropped the players we were all criticising, but he did it when it was too late. You could work injuries into the reason for failure, as Simon will do, but injuries are part and parcel of football when you play several campaigns, again, Wenger has stuck with very injury prone players when other clubs, cynically, would probably have got rid of them.
I think this stubborness, you could call it arrogance, had a huge effect on the playing squad, and led to the disillusionment of key players. And we are NOW well past the tipping point, and the reasons for our lack of success now, are largely financial. The board, in recognition, are on the back foot and redesigning our aspirations and mission statement. They have decided to hang their hat very solidly on the fair play peg. I probably dont blame them. Strangely and paradoxically, Wenger looks a better bet to me now than he did 2 or 3 years, back, as we are in a sort of retirement zone where he can happily tinker with the side with no actual pressure or expectation other than top 4 place, which should always be well within our grasp, as one of the 4 richest clubs in the league.
But in summary I think the reason for our failure to pepper the recent past with at least one or two trophies, is a lot more to to with Wenger than anything else. We would still have ended up at roughly the same point we are now, but the mood and media angle about the club would be more positive, and some players might have hung about a bit longer as well.
However, I will NEVER understand how Wenger lost the killer instinct that could have made successes of both the 2007-2008 and 2010-2011 seasons. Both seasons we were at the top of the league at the mid point, in 2008 we were 5 points clear the date we beat Blackburn 2-0. Both of these seasons Man City were not a factor yet, and Chelsea, due to Abramovics tinkering with his managers, were in a weak position. Both times EVERYBODY was crying out for a couple of signings, not even your rolls royce signings, just options, mainly defensive, and for AW to get rid of the selection of comedy goalkeepers that he continued to stick with until about 2 years later when he suddenly realised they were er, sh*t. This wasnt about sugar daddies, arab millions, Uniteds debt, the signings we needed to make were well within the range of the club and wouldnt have even threatened our financial state. In fact, in many cases, Wenger went and made the signings we needed, or dropped the players we were all criticising, but he did it when it was too late. You could work injuries into the reason for failure, as Simon will do, but injuries are part and parcel of football when you play several campaigns, again, Wenger has stuck with very injury prone players when other clubs, cynically, would probably have got rid of them.
I think this stubborness, you could call it arrogance, had a huge effect on the playing squad, and led to the disillusionment of key players. And we are NOW well past the tipping point, and the reasons for our lack of success now, are largely financial. The board, in recognition, are on the back foot and redesigning our aspirations and mission statement. They have decided to hang their hat very solidly on the fair play peg. I probably dont blame them. Strangely and paradoxically, Wenger looks a better bet to me now than he did 2 or 3 years, back, as we are in a sort of retirement zone where he can happily tinker with the side with no actual pressure or expectation other than top 4 place, which should always be well within our grasp, as one of the 4 richest clubs in the league.
But in summary I think the reason for our failure to pepper the recent past with at least one or two trophies, is a lot more to to with Wenger than anything else. We would still have ended up at roughly the same point we are now, but the mood and media angle about the club would be more positive, and some players might have hung about a bit longer as well.
Both times EVERYBODY was crying out for a couple of signings, not even your rolls royce signings, just options, mainly defensive,
Nobody knows if he had any money to spend even on decent, not great players.
I can only summise there wasn't any.
Nobody knows if he had any money to spend even on decent, not great players.
I can only summise there wasn't any.
Quote:Simon68
Both times EVERYBODY was crying out for a couple of signings, not even your rolls royce signings, just options, mainly defensive,
Nobody knows if he had any money to spend even on decent, not great players.
I can only hope for his sakesummisethere wasn't any.
Yes Man City and Chavs have their billions, unlike plucky little Arsenal with only 2 billionaires owning the club.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Quote:celine dion
However, I will NEVER understand how Wenger lost the killer instinct that could have made successes of both the 2007-2008 and 2010-2011 seasons. Both seasons we were at the top of the league at the mid point, in 2008 we were 5 points clear the date we beat Blackburn 2-0. Both of these seasons Man City were not a factor yet, and Chelsea, due to Abramovics tinkering with his managers, were in a weak position. Both times EVERYBODY was crying out for a couple of signings, not even your rolls royce signings, just options, mainly defensive, and for AW to get rid of the selection of comedy goalkeepers that he continued to stick with until about 2 years later when he suddenly realised they were er, sh*t. This wasnt about sugar daddies, arab millions, Uniteds debt, the signings we needed to make were well within the range of the club and wouldnt have even threatened our financial state. In fact, in many cases, Wenger went and made the signings we needed, or dropped the players we were all criticising, but he did it when it was too late.
Why I say it is Wenger's fault is that we need two players and we have three injured and we get the hear the famous quote "******* will be like a new signing". Always believing he's got enough and not just addressing the problem.
Theodore roosevelt - In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.
Some fans are so thick.. Relying on injury-prone players, not buying the extra one or two players needed for success, trying to convert eboue and denilson into main dm and later relying on them including almunia in goal, saying it will be like new signing, and claiming to go for only super super quality etc were all signs that there was No Fucken Money to spend.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
Some fans are so thick.. Relying on injury-prone players, not buying the extra one or two players needed for success, trying to convert eboue and denilson into main dm and later relying on them including almunia in goal, saying it will be like new signing, and claiming to go for only super super quality etc were all signs that there was No Fucken Money to spend.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
There is just as much proof that there is money to spend as there isn't.
Even Eduardo has came out and said wenger has money, but maybe not as much as what the board have claimed.
You just don't want to believe that there is money to spend, cos if there isn't, it makes wenger look better.
Either way I am shocked people are suggesting there has not beein a decline at arsenal.If there is no money and people are using that as the excuse for the decline, then why are these people not questioning the use of a billionaire on the board?
Ther is a decline at arsenal on the pitch and a decline of ambition both on the board and in some parts of our fanbase.
Even Eduardo has came out and said wenger has money, but maybe not as much as what the board have claimed.
You just don't want to believe that there is money to spend, cos if there isn't, it makes wenger look better.
Either way I am shocked people are suggesting there has not beein a decline at arsenal.If there is no money and people are using that as the excuse for the decline, then why are these people not questioning the use of a billionaire on the board?
Ther is a decline at arsenal on the pitch and a decline of ambition both on the board and in some parts of our fanbase.
No point in giving Wenger money, he would only spend it on giving Chamakh £70K a week
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
I would say Wenger's great error in the period after the Invincibles team broke up was a tactical one, rather than to do with finances, the board or other clubs getting rich owners.
He decided to move away from having a first 11 that combined flair (pires, Henry etc) with brute strength, height, aggression and physicality - Campbell, toure, gilberto, vieira, even Dennis, Henry and ljubgberg.
For reasons unknown he decided to ditch that strategy and try and build a Barcelona lite consisting almost entirely of physically light players who are small in stature, and valuing 'technical ability' to the exclusion of other attributes. The balance of the team became skewed.
Luckily he's started to see the error of this I think.
He decided to move away from having a first 11 that combined flair (pires, Henry etc) with brute strength, height, aggression and physicality - Campbell, toure, gilberto, vieira, even Dennis, Henry and ljubgberg.
For reasons unknown he decided to ditch that strategy and try and build a Barcelona lite consisting almost entirely of physically light players who are small in stature, and valuing 'technical ability' to the exclusion of other attributes. The balance of the team became skewed.
Luckily he's started to see the error of this I think.
To Pip, GRU and Flava. I don`t think there`s anyone at Arsenal who is holding the club back from winning silver-wear. Quite the opposite, in fact.
And I believe that history will prove me right. I answered a PM from Radio, explaining that my view(from afar) is that Arsenal fc is, at present, about half through a financial trough period, of between 12 to 15yrs, directly caused by our moving from Highbury to Emirates. I`ve said this many times, over the past few years and I have yet to be proved wrong.
Please believe me when I say, I hope I am wrong and we win the league this season, but I can`t see it.
I believe we can`t afford to win trophies at present. I also believe that, within the next 10 years, Arsenal will ascend to the top of Europe, because of how the club is being run now.
We, as fans, are paying the price of the move and we`ll keep paying that price for some time yet.
Since the end of WW1, 1919, when the FA restarted its 4 tier football league, with Arsenal fc in the 1st div, there’s only ever been one club to have never been relegated from Div 1/ EPL.
Arsenal fc
Let’s keep making history
And I believe that history will prove me right. I answered a PM from Radio, explaining that my view(from afar) is that Arsenal fc is, at present, about half through a financial trough period, of between 12 to 15yrs, directly caused by our moving from Highbury to Emirates. I`ve said this many times, over the past few years and I have yet to be proved wrong.
Please believe me when I say, I hope I am wrong and we win the league this season, but I can`t see it.
I believe we can`t afford to win trophies at present. I also believe that, within the next 10 years, Arsenal will ascend to the top of Europe, because of how the club is being run now.
We, as fans, are paying the price of the move and we`ll keep paying that price for some time yet.
Since the end of WW1, 1919, when the FA restarted its 4 tier football league, with Arsenal fc in the 1st div, there’s only ever been one club to have never been relegated from Div 1/ EPL.
Arsenal fc
Let’s keep making history
There's plenty of variables; financial elements, Arsene's reluctance to speculate in January, his reliance on p*ss poor personnel, the rise of mercenaries, some untimely injuries to very important members, Arsene's lack of prevision - they're all interweaved in one way or the other and all are attributable factors in 'how we got here'.
The league has been there for us a few times, as have other honours and it would've been really wonderful to have been able to win them under the current model, it would've made us a beacon of a successful club and we would've been heralded from all corners of the continent for succeeding in a time when the sport is being dominated by those who spend the most - but you get the impression we missed the boat and now the Wenger era is petering out.
It's be quite remarkable if we can get back to winning ways.
The league has been there for us a few times, as have other honours and it would've been really wonderful to have been able to win them under the current model, it would've made us a beacon of a successful club and we would've been heralded from all corners of the continent for succeeding in a time when the sport is being dominated by those who spend the most - but you get the impression we missed the boat and now the Wenger era is petering out.
It's be quite remarkable if we can get back to winning ways.
Thats certainly a bold claim De Times, that I am thick, and that there was no money to spend. Becsuse a glance at Wengers transfers during one of these periods, 2007-2008 shows that Wenger was throwing money about quite freely. Lassana Diara, who played precisely half a game, Sagna, Ramsay, then within half a year of each other Nasri and Arshavin for a combined fee of 30 mil with the only significant exit money spinning exit being Hleb. So you can try and tell me that there wasnt 8 million quid knocking about to replace Senderos and maybe half that to get a keeper in who was better than Almunia, but I wont believe you. Face it, De Times, during these periods Wenger only worried about a Rolls Royce attack. there was a gross imbalance in terms of quality when compared to the defence.Many succesful clubs keep the same defenders for 10 years. The Arsenal I was bought up with certainly did. Yet look back at our defensive elements of just 4 years ago. Almost all have left the club and most did so under a cloud and have since sunk without trace. Wake up De Times.
Well, ofcourse you know celine i didnt mean that you specifically are thick, just that the way this illogical line of thought has gone on over the years is quite sickenning. A girl told me two days ago that her boyfriend sometimes take her to some of the finest hotels in town and pretend as though he's rich with a very fine apartment, but can't take care of basic responsibilites, can't even replace some of his properties that went bad, and borrows money from her at times. Now this bf of hers is a nice person who knows what to do and isnt crafty, and so over time it became obvious to the girl that the boy has no fucken money, atleast not as he claim to have. Wenger over the years has put up a face as though he has money to spend, but when you begin to see us lose out on a player for 1m or lose our fine player cos we couldnt pay him extra 5k/week, and couldnt keep our legends claiming that they're too old when actually it's cos they earn what we consider unsustainable because we're going to buy an even much older player who earns significantly lower, then i'll prefer to trust my lying eyes instead of wenger or gazides PR talk - something you all call spin only when it's convenient for your argument.
In the examples you gave celine you mentioned diarra, nasri, sagna, ramsey and sum them all together claiming we had money. You spoke about them as though they were luxury buys at the expense of a much needed defender and goalkeeper. But you never mentioned that diara was bought cos the club knew gilberto was going and that flamini was in the last year of his contract, and that sagna was bought to replace lauren and has become one of the best buys in this era. You didnt mention that nasri was bought only as replacement for hleb. How is ramsey a rolls royce attacker? If anything wenger was giving the midfield a chance to have what the defence already had in djorou and gibbs - young talented players looking to take over from the senior players.
What was wenger's alternatives, what could he had done differently. Well, intead of diara he couldve bought yaya or essein or cissoko or m.Diarra. Instead of nasri wenger first went in for silva and riberry. The only thing any reasonable individual can draw from these buys is that wenger settled for the less quality players who cost significantly less from those he wouldve bought if he had the money to. All the talk of wenger going for smaller players without physicality are all bs as we all know it wouldnt have been the case had wenger had money to buy players he first went in for such as yaya and essein. Gallas and toure were our first choice defenders and wenger couldve bought chielini and kompany as backups at the time but he had a small amount to spend which was only going into the first team. So wenger replaced kolo and gallas with vermaelen and kos, and now for the first time, in line with claims that we have some money to spend last season, wenger went and spent up to 8m on a backup defender who has strengthened us in that position. Wenger's buys made perfect sense at the time. If you have gallas and toure it's only sensible you buy a decent player like nasri for the attack instead of spend that money on a backup defender and leave the attack extremely weak just cos you think senderos couldnt be trusted as fourth choice defender. It makes perfect sense to add a decent player elsewhere than use the money to buy another average goalkeeper such as gordon for over 10m especially since almunia was still decent enough to be considered for England national team.
With the benefit of hindsight, it's clear that Wenger has always been ahead of us all, seeing things that will only take some of us years to have a chance of seeing.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
In the examples you gave celine you mentioned diarra, nasri, sagna, ramsey and sum them all together claiming we had money. You spoke about them as though they were luxury buys at the expense of a much needed defender and goalkeeper. But you never mentioned that diara was bought cos the club knew gilberto was going and that flamini was in the last year of his contract, and that sagna was bought to replace lauren and has become one of the best buys in this era. You didnt mention that nasri was bought only as replacement for hleb. How is ramsey a rolls royce attacker? If anything wenger was giving the midfield a chance to have what the defence already had in djorou and gibbs - young talented players looking to take over from the senior players.
What was wenger's alternatives, what could he had done differently. Well, intead of diara he couldve bought yaya or essein or cissoko or m.Diarra. Instead of nasri wenger first went in for silva and riberry. The only thing any reasonable individual can draw from these buys is that wenger settled for the less quality players who cost significantly less from those he wouldve bought if he had the money to. All the talk of wenger going for smaller players without physicality are all bs as we all know it wouldnt have been the case had wenger had money to buy players he first went in for such as yaya and essein. Gallas and toure were our first choice defenders and wenger couldve bought chielini and kompany as backups at the time but he had a small amount to spend which was only going into the first team. So wenger replaced kolo and gallas with vermaelen and kos, and now for the first time, in line with claims that we have some money to spend last season, wenger went and spent up to 8m on a backup defender who has strengthened us in that position. Wenger's buys made perfect sense at the time. If you have gallas and toure it's only sensible you buy a decent player like nasri for the attack instead of spend that money on a backup defender and leave the attack extremely weak just cos you think senderos couldnt be trusted as fourth choice defender. It makes perfect sense to add a decent player elsewhere than use the money to buy another average goalkeeper such as gordon for over 10m especially since almunia was still decent enough to be considered for England national team.
With the benefit of hindsight, it's clear that Wenger has always been ahead of us all, seeing things that will only take some of us years to have a chance of seeing.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
De Times you have your head so far up Wenger's @#$%& you can't see straight. The decision by Arsene to prioritise 'technical ability' over having a balanced team with strength, height and endurance was completely deliberate. It wasn't to do with finances, necessity or being forced into anything. It was wanting to play a certain way. He himself has admitted that his desire and 'philosophy' (on the pitch not off it) resulted in a team with players with (generally) slight stature, mobility and 'technical' skills above all else - basically a reversal of the Invincibles side that had the best of both worlds in the perfect balance.
Its a vision he tried to implement, and it was a big strategic error. In recent years he's realised this, hence the signings of people like Mertesacker, Arteta, Giroud, Podoloski......M'vila / Capoute......
Its a vision he tried to implement, and it was a big strategic error. In recent years he's realised this, hence the signings of people like Mertesacker, Arteta, Giroud, Podoloski......M'vila / Capoute......
Indeed Barcelona lite, or the poor mans tikka takka
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Slordio, could you please kindly produce one quote from wenger to backup your claim that he "prioritised technical ability over having a balanced team with strength, height, endurance" - one quote other than analysis from someone else.
And, in order not to digress, was it such priorities that made wenger stocked with denilson at or try to convert eboue to dm rather than buy yaya toure? Or went and buy silvestre rather than buy a young chielini/kompany? If it was so simply solely a matter of prioritizing technical skills, why then did wenger went agressively for baptista for our midfield, a player who is far from being technically great? Why buy chamakh instead of aguero and why try to look in the direction of bendtner and eboue for the right wing instead of just buy silva and ribbery who wouldve been ideal for such technicalities? These were all wenger's options, players he actually went for.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
And, in order not to digress, was it such priorities that made wenger stocked with denilson at or try to convert eboue to dm rather than buy yaya toure? Or went and buy silvestre rather than buy a young chielini/kompany? If it was so simply solely a matter of prioritizing technical skills, why then did wenger went agressively for baptista for our midfield, a player who is far from being technically great? Why buy chamakh instead of aguero and why try to look in the direction of bendtner and eboue for the right wing instead of just buy silva and ribbery who wouldve been ideal for such technicalities? These were all wenger's options, players he actually went for.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
Dont need Wenger to say it, check the stats, the team shrunk in size. He was copying Barca.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Quote:right after you find a quote where he say the club has no money.De Times
Slordio, could you please kindly produce one quote from wenger to backup your claim that he "prioritised technical ability over having a balanced team with strength, height, endurance" - one quote other than analysis from someone else.
Theodore roosevelt - In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.
[quote De Times]Slordio, could you please kindly produce one quote from wenger to backup your claim that he "prioritised technical ability over having a balanced team with strength, height, endurance" - one quote other than analysis from someone else."
spin on this De Times quote Wenger When asked about his height rule, Wenger said: “I don’t like to do that, in fairness. Usually I look at the quality of the player and not at the size. Because we play a very technical game, I usually choose smaller players.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
spin on this De Times quote Wenger When asked about his height rule, Wenger said: “I don’t like to do that, in fairness. Usually I look at the quality of the player and not at the size. Because we play a very technical game, I usually choose smaller players.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Nice one padre. That's the quite I remembered but couldn't find.
Detimes wenger got the physical balance of the team wrong for a long time chasing his 'technical excellence' philosophy. Not a good strategy in the premier league. I don't know why he did this, because the Invincibles team formula of flair + physical strength worked perfectly so why change it.
But he seems to have realised this with type of signings made recently and I'd guess there's a conscious effort to increase the physical competitiveness of the team. Which needed to be done a long time ago
Detimes wenger got the physical balance of the team wrong for a long time chasing his 'technical excellence' philosophy. Not a good strategy in the premier league. I don't know why he did this, because the Invincibles team formula of flair + physical strength worked perfectly so why change it.
But he seems to have realised this with type of signings made recently and I'd guess there's a conscious effort to increase the physical competitiveness of the team. Which needed to be done a long time ago
Quote:Is that really a Wenger quote? Cos it's strange wenger would just lie so blatantly. Most of his players are not small, so when does he mean "usually"?Padre Pio
I usually choose smaller players.
You need to provide the full transcript padre for clearer understanding of what wenger was talking about. Why would wenger contradict himself by saying he usually choose smaller players right after saying he usually look at the quality and not the size. It looks like a wenger spin to me honestly, a spin to defend the size of players he was stocked with.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
Yes its really a Wenger quote, I remember him saying it.
It was in an interview with John Cross who is an Arsenal and Arsene fan.
So heres the source John Cross
Bit why not believe your own eyes. Remember when Wenger's team were massive compared to the opposition? They felt beat before the game even started, now they see a bunch of midgets and think game on we can bully this lot
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
It was in an interview with John Cross who is an Arsenal and Arsene fan.
So heres the source John Cross
Bit why not believe your own eyes. Remember when Wenger's team were massive compared to the opposition? They felt beat before the game even started, now they see a bunch of midgets and think game on we can bully this lot
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Like i said padre, it was basically at best a wenger spin to defend the size of the players he was stocked up with at the club. Never did he say though that he prioritised technicalities over a balanced team with height, strength and balanced. That is the quote i'm talking about, if you can find it then you're right and i give up but if you can't then it's better to admit it was merely a myth. Wenger once said the taller the better and he actually went in aggresively for players with less techniques but more strength and endurance such as yaya, essein, baptista, sagna, gallas, song, kompany, adebayor, vermaelen, koscielny, barry, lescott, jagielka, alonso, richards, chielini, cahill, diarra, etc during the same period.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
"A club is a union between players, supporters and directors". - Wenger.
Arsene wenger has done an absolutely masterful job within the constraints he has... Every single year, he has outperformed our spending every single year he has been manager. It is extraordinary. -Gazides.
My sainted aunt de Times quote "Because we play a very technical game, I usually choose smaller players".
If thats not saying it I dont know.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
If thats not saying it I dont know.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Your column on Arsenal's decline is important because so many Gooners and so many of the blogs refuse to even acknowledge that we are a team in steep decline from the 1997-2004 period. As you state, it could be one of the most dramatic declines in English footballing history. So why are so many fans blind to this reality? Some claim that it's cyclical and just another dip as opposed to a crisis. Some say don't compare us to The Invincibles, look at the big historical picture. Some say qualifying for Europe fifteen years in a row is achievement enough. Peter Hill-Wood says "it's not as if we've been relegated." But outside of Goonerdom, and to a large extent inside Goonerdom, we know only too well that sheikhs and financial doping aside, this team should have done much better than it has since 2004. We're always talking about being two players short of success but we never get those players.
Correctly, in my view, you identify lack of investment as the problem. We haven't got City's dosh but were Park, Squillaci and Chamakh the best we could have bought? Course not. We buy badly, stick with proven failures too long and never change tack. The very worst aspect of it all is the fact that the club never ever come clean with the fans they're happy to fleece. If they came out and said "we're sitting tight until FFP comes in, so deal with it" we could respect that. But the club says "we never deny the manager the funds to strengthen the squad". The manager says "this is my best squad ever" and seems to believe it. And still we start each season with a wafer-thin squad which annually disappoints. Worse, we've completely lost the expectation of success just like RVP has and it's killing us as fans. Acepting this state of affairs is not an option but what can we do?
Looking forward to Parts 3 and 4 in which you tell us what the way forward might be and why the club won't take it.
Correctly, in my view, you identify lack of investment as the problem. We haven't got City's dosh but were Park, Squillaci and Chamakh the best we could have bought? Course not. We buy badly, stick with proven failures too long and never change tack. The very worst aspect of it all is the fact that the club never ever come clean with the fans they're happy to fleece. If they came out and said "we're sitting tight until FFP comes in, so deal with it" we could respect that. But the club says "we never deny the manager the funds to strengthen the squad". The manager says "this is my best squad ever" and seems to believe it. And still we start each season with a wafer-thin squad which annually disappoints. Worse, we've completely lost the expectation of success just like RVP has and it's killing us as fans. Acepting this state of affairs is not an option but what can we do?
Looking forward to Parts 3 and 4 in which you tell us what the way forward might be and why the club won't take it.
Quote:Bertie1
Correctly, in my view, you identify lack of investment as the problem. We haven't got City's dosh but were Park, Squillaci and Chamakh the best we could have bought? Course not. We buy badly, stick with proven failures too long and never change tack. The very worst aspect of it all is the fact that the club never ever come clean with the fans they're happy to fleece. If they came out and said "we're sitting tight until FFP comes in, so deal with it" we could respect that. But the club says "we never deny the manager the funds to strengthen the squad". The manager says "this is my best squad ever" and seems to believe it. And still we start each season with a wafer-thin squad which annually disappoints. Worse, we've completely lost the expectation of success just like RVP has and it's killing us as fans. Acepting this state of affairs is not an option but what can we do?
QFT
Theodore roosevelt - In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.
Well, at the last AST meeting they did say precisely that they are waiting for fair play. But agreed that doesnt excuse the nonsense that has gone before.
Fair play is two years away, stagnation is not a strategy. If the club continues to fall behind it may well be unable to catch up by then
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
"When we had to suffer the team is a lion because they suffer together." 4 July 2020 at Wolverhampton Wanderers
Arteta on his team's first away victory at a club above them in the Premiership since September 2015 at Leicester.
Stagnation is not a strategy - classic. The sad thing is that Wenger was once the most astute, refreshing and intelligent figure in the English game. Now he's forced to endure constant humiliation and criticism. Sad. One of these days, post-retirement, he will write his biog and you wonder what he will say about this period. "There really was no money and they forced me to operate on a shoestring." Or, "I was determined to show that we could do it the hard way, without spending much." That's a book I would rush to buy.
Meanwhile, Arsenal and Wenger continue with their lame bluff that everything is part of a grand master-plan. Best squad ever. Convinced we will win everything this year. Fantastic spirit and resolve. I can buy who I want but we don't need to. Blah blah bleedin' blah. Fourth again, I reckon.
Meanwhile, Arsenal and Wenger continue with their lame bluff that everything is part of a grand master-plan. Best squad ever. Convinced we will win everything this year. Fantastic spirit and resolve. I can buy who I want but we don't need to. Blah blah bleedin' blah. Fourth again, I reckon.
Don't think it makes one bit of difference what the board tells the fans..there will always be something for people to complain about
Quote:Rockstaar
Don't think it makes one bit of difference what the board tells the fans..there will always be something for people to complain about
You smell like stale cheese - is that what you mean?
Quote:karsene16
right after you find a quote where he say the club has no money.
Hope you don't mind mu jhaving a go at this one Kars
From Arsene Wenger, 2010
“For years we have no money. Now we have money and we cannot find players to buy.”
In case you missed that here it is again
“For years we have no money..."
How is that? I can link the pice but the link simply restayes the quote as does the article heading...
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