England
ENGLAND names 45-strong Preliminary Training Squad for RWC
By RFU Press Office
June 20 2011
ENGLAND today announced a 45-strong Preliminary Training Squad for the Rugby World Cup.
| England Rugby World Cup training squad |
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ENGLAND today announced a 45-strong Preliminary Training Squad for the Rugby World Cup. All of the 2011 RBS 6 Nations squad are included, while there are call-ups for Saracens’ Matt Stevens and Mouritz Botha and Gloucester wing Charlie Sharples, all of whom helped England Saxons retain the Churchill Cup against Canada on Saturday. Also named are Thomas Waldrom and Manusamoa Tuilagi – Rugby Players’ Association Player and Aviva Premiership Young Player of the Year respectively – as well as Richard Wigglesworth from champions Saracens. England Team Manager Martin Johnson said: “Every one of these players has the chance to be in that final 30 going to New Zealand. The camp is going to be intense and competitive, as you would expect leading up to a World Cup, but all the players are ready for it. “We have guys such as Lewis, Jonny and Mike Tindall who have been in this situation before but also a lot of players who won’t have experienced a World Cup training camp. It’s now up to all of them to set down their marker over the next 10 weeks before we head to New Zealand.”
Forwards (25)
Backs (20) * The final 30-man squad will be announced on Monday, August 22 |
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StumbleuponENGLAND names 45-strong Preliminary Training Squad for RWC
Discussion started by Unofficial England Rugby Union , 20/06/2011 10:22
Unofficial England Rugby Union
20/06/2011 10:22
20/06/2011 10:22
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A constant source of embarrassment that the largest & wealthiest union, with the biggest player base, consistently chooses southern hemisphere or pacific island players who would struggle to get near their own countries national teams to fill the dearth of suitable English talent.
Do you think any of these players would be playing their rugby in England if they were good enough to represent their home teams? This is not a post of ill will to any of those players who are taking their opportunity to play the highest level of rugby they can, just a sad observation on the state of English rugby. Surely the point of international rugby is that you represent your country, not somebody elses? That applies to all teams.
Do you think any of these players would be playing their rugby in England if they were good enough to represent their home teams? This is not a post of ill will to any of those players who are taking their opportunity to play the highest level of rugby they can, just a sad observation on the state of English rugby. Surely the point of international rugby is that you represent your country, not somebody elses? That applies to all teams.
Quote:My only quibble is why not Barritt at centre?
Because he offers even less than Hape?
Despite being a Sarries fan even I see that the overseas player selections are a bit OTT. Saddened that Waldrom is in over Narraway or Crane (especially as Crane was selected by Leicester ahead of Waldrom).
Yes I know MJ has picked in accordance with the existing laws but not sure its in the spirit of the law or of international rugby.
MJ is being pragmatic in an all out attempt to win the RWC, I get that but 2 things come from that; he had better win as he has made his bed now and what is the long term impact of this selection to English rugby after the RWC, not great I fear are we becoming Italy or Japan.
A champion is someone who gets up, even when they can't
Yes I know MJ has picked in accordance with the existing laws but not sure its in the spirit of the law or of international rugby.
MJ is being pragmatic in an all out attempt to win the RWC, I get that but 2 things come from that; he had better win as he has made his bed now and what is the long term impact of this selection to English rugby after the RWC, not great I fear are we becoming Italy or Japan.
A champion is someone who gets up, even when they can't
To the Doctor, there is a difference in picking men who had developed as players elsewhere (Waldron or Botha) from the selection of Tuilagi who has played for a series of English age group teams.
As an aside to that, Tuilagi's temper might be a problem.
As an aside to that, Tuilagi's temper might be a problem.
Well done Nick Narraway for saying what he thinks about being passed over by a New Zealander for the England's squad.
If England win the RWC, it will be a very hollow victory.
If England win the RWC, it will be a very hollow victory.
Tigeroo have you ever watched a rugby match in your life?
Barritt destroyed Hape in their latest meeting and made your Tiger centres completely ineffective in the AP final.
Waldrom is hugely overrated but he is a Tiger so gets the nod.
The Leicester factor is hardly surprising when you look at the England rugby coaching staff - MJ (ex Leicester),Wells (ex Leicester), Ford (one of his boys plays for Leicester).
Dan Cole is a permanent bench warmer for Tigers yet is a first choice prop for England?
Why are there so many Wasps players when the vast majority are past their sell by date? Tim Payne is average at best. Shaw is ancient,Flutey is 2 years out of date. Worsley is one dimensional and past his best.
The picks for the centres are appalling - a Anglo-Samoan 19 year boxer, two Kiwi journeymen and an ageing but experienced operator. This is of course if you don't include the most versatile lump around. He can play wing,centre,lock, fly half, scrum half,flanker, prop wherever.
MJ thinks Banahan is a centre. He also thought Monye was a full back.....
Barritt destroyed Hape in their latest meeting and made your Tiger centres completely ineffective in the AP final.
Waldrom is hugely overrated but he is a Tiger so gets the nod.
The Leicester factor is hardly surprising when you look at the England rugby coaching staff - MJ (ex Leicester),Wells (ex Leicester), Ford (one of his boys plays for Leicester).
Dan Cole is a permanent bench warmer for Tigers yet is a first choice prop for England?
Why are there so many Wasps players when the vast majority are past their sell by date? Tim Payne is average at best. Shaw is ancient,Flutey is 2 years out of date. Worsley is one dimensional and past his best.
The picks for the centres are appalling - a Anglo-Samoan 19 year boxer, two Kiwi journeymen and an ageing but experienced operator. This is of course if you don't include the most versatile lump around. He can play wing,centre,lock, fly half, scrum half,flanker, prop wherever.
MJ thinks Banahan is a centre. He also thought Monye was a full back.....
Childish bitterness about England? Ahhh must be a Sarries supporter. 
Johnson... Leicester bias? A ludicrous myth that the bandwagon jumpers latch on to. His first choice starting XV usually has about 4 Tigers in it Cole, Croft, Youngs and Flood, all deserved.
Cole is quality, and far from a permanent bench warmer at Tigers, he and Castro rotate, something that will stand Cole in good stead when the WC comes around. His workrate is phenomenal.
Barritt is a mediocre centre playing to a mediocre level in a mediocre league. What did he accomplish on the European stage, nothing. Not saying Hape is international class, but Barritt is even worse. He offers nothing and rightly has 0 caps to his name.
The inclusions of Payne and Worsley though I wholeheartedly agree with you on though.
Quote:Waldrom is hugely overrated but he is a Tiger so gets the nod.
Johnson... Leicester bias? A ludicrous myth that the bandwagon jumpers latch on to. His first choice starting XV usually has about 4 Tigers in it Cole, Croft, Youngs and Flood, all deserved.
Cole is quality, and far from a permanent bench warmer at Tigers, he and Castro rotate, something that will stand Cole in good stead when the WC comes around. His workrate is phenomenal.
Barritt is a mediocre centre playing to a mediocre level in a mediocre league. What did he accomplish on the European stage, nothing. Not saying Hape is international class, but Barritt is even worse. He offers nothing and rightly has 0 caps to his name.
The inclusions of Payne and Worsley though I wholeheartedly agree with you on though.
No I just remember the 90s and early 2000s when England were actually a good side. Being routinely spanked by the Irish is not something I enjoy but evidently you do.
Remind me how did Tigers do in Europe and in the AP this season? Did you win any trophies? No.
You bombed out in the quarters of the HC despite having a relatively soft group. Lost 3 times to Saracens, didn't beat Gloucester once and got lucky in the AP semi against Saints as you should have been down to 14 men. Leicester are a very good side but are behind Saracens and Saints based on current form.
Cole is like most people new on the international scene. Start off well but worked out, bit like Youngs has now. Not just targeting them. Care,Armitage etc got worked out.
Tigeroo are you MJ in disguise?
Our "mediocre" centre outplayed your Tigers man Anthony Allen in the final. He completely smashed Hape in the Saracens vs Bath match too.
I think you're just bitter that Leicester haven't picked up a trophy this season.
A 19 year old outplayed the current England fly half. No I don't think Farrell is better than Flood but it shows that the Tigers boys are no longer invincible.
We had the group of death if you didn't realise. We didn't have an Italian side, a weak Welsh side and a French team which couldn't qualify for the HC.
Does everything that MJ do which is ineffectual involve Leicester? No. You are right most of the Leicester players in the England squad are well deserved.
On the other hand you know nothing about rugby if you think Barritt is worse than Hape.
I would even prefer Anthony Allen to Hape and Flutey.
MJ is a poor coach. Doesn't matter if he is a Leicester man or not.
Waldrom is an overrated Kiwi who shouldn't be near the England squad. Other overrated players include Hape,Fourie,Flutey,Payne,Worsley,Chuter(Brits took him to the cleaners),Banahan,Haskell (good ball carrier but that's it).
Remind me how did Tigers do in Europe and in the AP this season? Did you win any trophies? No.
You bombed out in the quarters of the HC despite having a relatively soft group. Lost 3 times to Saracens, didn't beat Gloucester once and got lucky in the AP semi against Saints as you should have been down to 14 men. Leicester are a very good side but are behind Saracens and Saints based on current form.
Cole is like most people new on the international scene. Start off well but worked out, bit like Youngs has now. Not just targeting them. Care,Armitage etc got worked out.
Tigeroo are you MJ in disguise?
Our "mediocre" centre outplayed your Tigers man Anthony Allen in the final. He completely smashed Hape in the Saracens vs Bath match too.
I think you're just bitter that Leicester haven't picked up a trophy this season.
A 19 year old outplayed the current England fly half. No I don't think Farrell is better than Flood but it shows that the Tigers boys are no longer invincible.
We had the group of death if you didn't realise. We didn't have an Italian side, a weak Welsh side and a French team which couldn't qualify for the HC.
Does everything that MJ do which is ineffectual involve Leicester? No. You are right most of the Leicester players in the England squad are well deserved.
On the other hand you know nothing about rugby if you think Barritt is worse than Hape.
I would even prefer Anthony Allen to Hape and Flutey.
MJ is a poor coach. Doesn't matter if he is a Leicester man or not.
Waldrom is an overrated Kiwi who shouldn't be near the England squad. Other overrated players include Hape,Fourie,Flutey,Payne,Worsley,Chuter(Brits took him to the cleaners),Banahan,Haskell (good ball carrier but that's it).
I can't stand being spanked by the Irish, but if they want to raise their game for one match a season and fail at world cups time and again that's their business. I quite enjoy beating Australia by record scores, having one of our players win IRB try of the year and lifting the Six Nations championship trophy. All with a side who are at the start of their development.
Why bring up Tigers? Why get so defensive about Sarries? We were talking about Barritt. My question was, has he shown anything on the European stage, and the answer is no. A mediocre player, playing in a mediocre side who play mediocre (but effective, in the Premiership at least) rugby.
You may think I'm biased towards Tigers, but this is an England board and I couldn't care less about Tigers really. I'm country over club every time. Whether you believe me or not, I really don't mind.
Who said they were? Why are you so obsessed with Leicester? You said it yourself, just because a player 'outplays' another in a match, doesn't make them the better player.
He isn't a coach. He's the team manager.
Saracens fans' bitterness about England does make me laugh. They're so easily wound up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:06:27:16:29:31 by tigeroo.
Why bring up Tigers? Why get so defensive about Sarries? We were talking about Barritt. My question was, has he shown anything on the European stage, and the answer is no. A mediocre player, playing in a mediocre side who play mediocre (but effective, in the Premiership at least) rugby.
You may think I'm biased towards Tigers, but this is an England board and I couldn't care less about Tigers really. I'm country over club every time. Whether you believe me or not, I really don't mind.
Quote:but it shows that the Tigers boys are no longer invincible.
Who said they were? Why are you so obsessed with Leicester? You said it yourself, just because a player 'outplays' another in a match, doesn't make them the better player.
Quote:MJ is a poor coach.
He isn't a coach. He's the team manager.
Saracens fans' bitterness about England does make me laugh. They're so easily wound up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:06:27:16:29:31 by tigeroo.
I feel that you might dislike Barritt as you are a Tigers fan. That's where the relevance comes in. Barritt has been playing well. I would honestly prefer A.Allen to Hape too. I want what is best for England which is to play your best players. Drop the dead wood like Hape and Flutey.
I want England to win a grandslam. Not allow the Irish,South Africans and Kiwis to repeatedly smash us.
In the 2000s I think we beat the South Africans 6-7 times in a row. Haven't beaten them since.
Beating the French and Aussies is enough for 4th-5th in the world but not top 3.
Bitterness? I just get angry with the inept job done by MJ. Manager or coach I don't care. He is in charge.
He has made good decisions like bringing in Wood,Foden,Ashton, Youngs etc but has mixed it up with numerous inept decisions too. Monye at FB and Banahan at centre stand out.
Also if Saracens are mediocre what does it make the rest of the sides in the AP who lose most of the time to us in the last 2 seasons?
You might counter that MJ won a 6 nations championship but a chimpanzee could have done it too -all he had to do was beat a Welsh side reeling from no wins in almost a year and win 3 games at home against Scotland (never won at Twickers in almost 20 years), Italy (never beaten England) and France who have a mental block vs England.
Robshaw is better than Fourie.
Narraway deserves a spot more than Waldrom.
Anyone over Worsley,Shaw and Payne.
Barritt and Allen over Hape and Flutey.
I would even have my doubts whether Wigglesworth and Botha deserve spots but winning the AP probably swayed it.
Goode or Brown over Armitage.
I want England to win a grandslam. Not allow the Irish,South Africans and Kiwis to repeatedly smash us.
In the 2000s I think we beat the South Africans 6-7 times in a row. Haven't beaten them since.
Beating the French and Aussies is enough for 4th-5th in the world but not top 3.
Bitterness? I just get angry with the inept job done by MJ. Manager or coach I don't care. He is in charge.
He has made good decisions like bringing in Wood,Foden,Ashton, Youngs etc but has mixed it up with numerous inept decisions too. Monye at FB and Banahan at centre stand out.
Also if Saracens are mediocre what does it make the rest of the sides in the AP who lose most of the time to us in the last 2 seasons?
You might counter that MJ won a 6 nations championship but a chimpanzee could have done it too -all he had to do was beat a Welsh side reeling from no wins in almost a year and win 3 games at home against Scotland (never won at Twickers in almost 20 years), Italy (never beaten England) and France who have a mental block vs England.
Robshaw is better than Fourie.
Narraway deserves a spot more than Waldrom.
Anyone over Worsley,Shaw and Payne.
Barritt and Allen over Hape and Flutey.
I would even have my doubts whether Wigglesworth and Botha deserve spots but winning the AP probably swayed it.
Goode or Brown over Armitage.
I dislike Barritt because I'm a Tigers fan? Don't be ridiculous. I don't think he's international quality, simple as that. Similar to Mike Brown, Jordan Crane or Phil Dowson. Good club players, but not international class.
I could be wrong but don't Bath play Banahan at centre these days? Weren't they the one who started that experiment? Johnson has only started him there by choice against Samoa and the Barbarians anyway.
Sadly, it makes them pretty poor. On the european stage anyway, barring a big game every now and then. There's a hell of a lot of safety-first, poor skills rugby around at the moment, with a few exceptions. Saints are very impressive on their day for instance.
Robshaw and Fourie are both quality, and are both in the squad.
I could be wrong but don't Bath play Banahan at centre these days? Weren't they the one who started that experiment? Johnson has only started him there by choice against Samoa and the Barbarians anyway.
Quote:Also if Saracens are mediocre what does it make the rest of the sides in the AP
Sadly, it makes them pretty poor. On the european stage anyway, barring a big game every now and then. There's a hell of a lot of safety-first, poor skills rugby around at the moment, with a few exceptions. Saints are very impressive on their day for instance.
Robshaw and Fourie are both quality, and are both in the squad.
England have 166,672 registered senior players and are picking new zealand no body has beens, disgraceful. New Zealand has 27,374.
It is funny reading your posts above though. keep the bickering up, reminds me of the good old days when Barney was here. I miss him
It is funny reading your posts above though. keep the bickering up, reminds me of the good old days when Barney was here. I miss him
Quote:I could be wrong but don't Bath play Banahan at centre these days? Weren't they the one who started that experiment? Johnson has only started him there by choice against Samoa and the Barbarians anyway.
Banahan started at outside centre against Ireland.
I think the issue is that if your going to play a non English player, they should be streets ahead of the other challengers for the shirt - no one is saying they aren't good players but this is the pinnacle of a players career playing for their national team
Waldron - Crane / Dowson / Narraway / Fearns
Fourie - Robshaw / Rees / Seymour / Johnson / Skaysbrook / Skirving / Saull
Botha - Borthwick / Skivington / Day
Flutey & Hape - Clark / Allen / Bell / Trinder / 12 Trees / Turner-Hall
Tuilagi is different (as are Hartley and Stevens), they have played age group, not moved here to play or taken England as a second best option
Waldron - Crane / Dowson / Narraway / Fearns
Fourie - Robshaw / Rees / Seymour / Johnson / Skaysbrook / Skirving / Saull
Botha - Borthwick / Skivington / Day
Flutey & Hape - Clark / Allen / Bell / Trinder / 12 Trees / Turner-Hall
Tuilagi is different (as are Hartley and Stevens), they have played age group, not moved here to play or taken England as a second best option
Tigeroo how can you tell a player is international quality or not if they aren't given a chance?
I am not sure how often Bath have played Banahan at centre but surely it can't be more than 10 games which is very little.
Most teams would struggle in the group of death. Only one team qualified from it.
Saints are good but their head to head vs the best sides in the AP recently is very poor.
Dobbin we all know what happened then....
Saint Tub I agree with you. It's not as if these foreigners are equivalent to the likes of Smith,Nonu and Kahui in the centres or Read at no 8.
Waldrom isn't even a starter for his club in the biggest matches e.g. vs Saracens in the AP final and Leinster in the HC quarter final. An overrated player who offers no more than other no 8s.
Fourie is hugely overrated. None of the top sides have signed him up. Hmm I wonder why.... He wouldn't get into any of Quins,Saracens,Leicester,Saints,Bath and Gloucester squads in my opinion.
I am not sure how often Bath have played Banahan at centre but surely it can't be more than 10 games which is very little.
Most teams would struggle in the group of death. Only one team qualified from it.
Saints are good but their head to head vs the best sides in the AP recently is very poor.
Dobbin we all know what happened then....
Saint Tub I agree with you. It's not as if these foreigners are equivalent to the likes of Smith,Nonu and Kahui in the centres or Read at no 8.
Waldrom isn't even a starter for his club in the biggest matches e.g. vs Saracens in the AP final and Leinster in the HC quarter final. An overrated player who offers no more than other no 8s.
Fourie is hugely overrated. None of the top sides have signed him up. Hmm I wonder why.... He wouldn't get into any of Quins,Saracens,Leicester,Saints,Bath and Gloucester squads in my opinion.
Instead of simply stating that this player and that player is "over-rated", why not try going a step further and enlighten us as to what aspects of their game do you think are lacking?
Because they've been given a chance for the full side, Saxons or midweek England touring sides.
And isn't that a bit hypocritical? How do you know Waldrom isn't international quality if we haven't even seen him in an England shirt yet?
Johnson has played Banahan out of choice on two occasions. Against Samoa and the Barbarians, and he seemed to do alright for someone who is still learning the ins and outs of the position. He's relatively quick for such a big man, and his offloading ability is seen as a strong point. Could be worse, Johnson could have stuck with Tait.
If you must drag this into yet another club p*ssing match... Saracens didn't just struggle, they lost 5 games out of 6 in their pool. Barritt has been nothing more than average at best. He works for Saracens' limited, negative gameplan, but at international level he would exposed horribly in all facets.
Quote:Tigeroo how can you tell a player is international quality or not if they aren't given a chance?
Because they've been given a chance for the full side, Saxons or midweek England touring sides.
And isn't that a bit hypocritical? How do you know Waldrom isn't international quality if we haven't even seen him in an England shirt yet?
Johnson has played Banahan out of choice on two occasions. Against Samoa and the Barbarians, and he seemed to do alright for someone who is still learning the ins and outs of the position. He's relatively quick for such a big man, and his offloading ability is seen as a strong point. Could be worse, Johnson could have stuck with Tait.
Quote:Most teams would struggle in the group of death. Only one team qualified from it.
If you must drag this into yet another club p*ssing match... Saracens didn't just struggle, they lost 5 games out of 6 in their pool. Barritt has been nothing more than average at best. He works for Saracens' limited, negative gameplan, but at international level he would exposed horribly in all facets.
The Barbarians and Samoa are hardly the toughest opposition. Looking good against weaker sides is much easier.Banahan was completely outclassed by the Irish centres. He is not an outside centre. Bit like Monye was not a full back - didn't stop MJ picking him there.
Fourie has been blown away in games I have watched. When he got his opportunity for England vs his home country he got outmuscled and smashed at the breakdown. When playing for Leeds he was outplayed by Saull who is probably not even seen as one of the top 5 opensides in the country by most. He got picked for England because of Neil Back. If Fourie is so good then why did none of the top clubs pick him up? Instead he was moved from the relegated side to 10th.
Waldrom looked one dimensional in the final. He is a good ball carrier but offers very little else in my opinion. He is not as versatile as other no 8s around.
Waldrom is a New Zealand reject. Has only had one season in the AP and has been bench warming for the big games.
At least Barritt is half English,is an English champion and has been one of the best inside centres in the AP for the last two years, starts most games too.
Tigeroo if we had a group as soft as yours we would have done a lot better in Europe. You will see a vast improvement from us in Europe this year with a much more favourable group. Saints got to the HC final because of an easy ride. If you don't agree look at the sides they beat compared to Leinster.
Negative limited gameplan? Who scored more tries in the AP final? It wasn't Leicester by the way. You lacked the attacking skill when it really mattered. The gameplan works. It shows the ineffectiveness of the other English sides to not be able to break us down.
Fourie has been blown away in games I have watched. When he got his opportunity for England vs his home country he got outmuscled and smashed at the breakdown. When playing for Leeds he was outplayed by Saull who is probably not even seen as one of the top 5 opensides in the country by most. He got picked for England because of Neil Back. If Fourie is so good then why did none of the top clubs pick him up? Instead he was moved from the relegated side to 10th.
Waldrom looked one dimensional in the final. He is a good ball carrier but offers very little else in my opinion. He is not as versatile as other no 8s around.
Waldrom is a New Zealand reject. Has only had one season in the AP and has been bench warming for the big games.
At least Barritt is half English,is an English champion and has been one of the best inside centres in the AP for the last two years, starts most games too.
Tigeroo if we had a group as soft as yours we would have done a lot better in Europe. You will see a vast improvement from us in Europe this year with a much more favourable group. Saints got to the HC final because of an easy ride. If you don't agree look at the sides they beat compared to Leinster.
Negative limited gameplan? Who scored more tries in the AP final? It wasn't Leicester by the way. You lacked the attacking skill when it really mattered. The gameplan works. It shows the ineffectiveness of the other English sides to not be able to break us down.
Quote:The Barbarians and Samoa are hardly the toughest opposition.
Exactly, hence trying him out against that opposition and seeing how he gets on in his first couple of caps in the position.
And as for Monye, again, Quins were playing him at fullback a fair few times before he was put there for England, but I agree, that was a big mistake by Johnson. It typified the safety-first rugby around from a year and a half ago.
Quote:Negative limited gameplan? Who scored more tries in the AP final? It wasn't Leicester by the way.
Again, I really don't care enough to get into a club p*ssing match, but well done on scoring a try in the premiership final. That must surely mean Sarries play in an attractive and positive way.
If you'd like to go down that route, over the season, Saracens have scored 35 tries. Leicester, 67, so please don't try and suggest Saracens don't play negative rugby more often than not.
Quote:The gameplan works. It shows the ineffectiveness of the other English sides to not be able to break us down.
This I agree with though, sad as it is for English club rugby.
Why play a winger at centre for warm up games? Wouldn't it be wiser to try out other centres instead? Banahan is not a centre. Let's not pretend he is.
I think you and I have different definitions of a fair few games. 10 or less games in a specific position isn't a fair few in my opinion.
I personally really dislike playing people out of position. E.g. I wouldn't put Flood or Wilkinson at inside centre either.
We played attractive rugby at the end of the 2009/2010 season for the last 6-7 games. Didn't win us the AP final though.
My point is you were not exciting at all against Saracens and neither are most sides. You did not play positive rugby vs us.
You are right we don't score a bucketful of tries but it's because we have focussed on winning. E.g. you had a try fest vs Gloucester but you drew a game at WR you should have really won.
I think you and I have different definitions of a fair few games. 10 or less games in a specific position isn't a fair few in my opinion.
I personally really dislike playing people out of position. E.g. I wouldn't put Flood or Wilkinson at inside centre either.
We played attractive rugby at the end of the 2009/2010 season for the last 6-7 games. Didn't win us the AP final though.
My point is you were not exciting at all against Saracens and neither are most sides. You did not play positive rugby vs us.
You are right we don't score a bucketful of tries but it's because we have focussed on winning. E.g. you had a try fest vs Gloucester but you drew a game at WR you should have really won.
Doesn't this make the point that international test matches are not the platform to experiment with players in positions they are not used to playing?
Surely, there are sufficient alternatives within the international structure to try out the players in alternative positions, if the management feel that is required/needed. Or does it again show that the Saxons is not necessarily the automatic single step away from full international honours, under the current regime at least?
Surely, there are sufficient alternatives within the international structure to try out the players in alternative positions, if the management feel that is required/needed. Or does it again show that the Saxons is not necessarily the automatic single step away from full international honours, under the current regime at least?
Quote:Doesn't this make the point that international test matches are not the platform to experiment with players in positions they are not used to playing?
Feel free to tell that to the head coaches of most international sides, as they all experiment with trying players in different positions.
Tigeroo look at Marc Lievremont and his experiments. Not exactly done France any good. Being humiliated by Italy was not his finest hour.
Give me a few examples of playing players out of position actually working.
Experimenting/blooding players is fine as long as it actually has some logic to it. E.g. blooding Youngs,Ashton,Foden etc was correct. On the other hand playing someone out of position in an important match is just silly.
Haven't examples like Banahan at centre,Monye at full back and Bergamasco at scrum half shown this?
Personally I would rather try out Manu Tuliagi at outside centre rather than continue with the Banahan experiment. I would have looked at Barritt and Allen as options at inside centre.
What has Banahan done to prove he could cut it as a centre at international level?
Give me a few examples of playing players out of position actually working.
Experimenting/blooding players is fine as long as it actually has some logic to it. E.g. blooding Youngs,Ashton,Foden etc was correct. On the other hand playing someone out of position in an important match is just silly.
Haven't examples like Banahan at centre,Monye at full back and Bergamasco at scrum half shown this?
Personally I would rather try out Manu Tuliagi at outside centre rather than continue with the Banahan experiment. I would have looked at Barritt and Allen as options at inside centre.
What has Banahan done to prove he could cut it as a centre at international level?
Mark Lievrement also won a grand slam though.
Ok, Keith Earls and Luke Fitzgerald being played at fullback, Jamie Roberts (originally a fullback) being given his first start at inside centre, James Hook being blooded at fullback by Wales, Nathan Hines playing in the back row, Andrea Masi at fly half, Schalk Burger at number 8, Matt Giteau being moved to 12, Adam Ashley-Cooper was new at inside centre when he was capped there, Sean Lamont likewise in this Six Nations, John Smit at tighthead, Stephen Donald at inside centre, Patrick Lambie likewise. The list goes on.
International rugby is full of players being shifted around. It's nothing new, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's out of necessity, sometimes it's to experiment.
Suddenly shifting a Lions winger to fullback and playing one of your core squad players in the same position he plays for his club nowadays, doesn't seem quite so silly does it. But again, obviously the Monye move was a mistake.
Will you come back to this topic next season saying that "Banahan isn't a centre" if/when Bath play him there for the majority of the season?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:06:30:17:20:49 by tigeroo.
Quote:Give me a few examples of playing players out of position actually working.
Ok, Keith Earls and Luke Fitzgerald being played at fullback, Jamie Roberts (originally a fullback) being given his first start at inside centre, James Hook being blooded at fullback by Wales, Nathan Hines playing in the back row, Andrea Masi at fly half, Schalk Burger at number 8, Matt Giteau being moved to 12, Adam Ashley-Cooper was new at inside centre when he was capped there, Sean Lamont likewise in this Six Nations, John Smit at tighthead, Stephen Donald at inside centre, Patrick Lambie likewise. The list goes on.
International rugby is full of players being shifted around. It's nothing new, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's out of necessity, sometimes it's to experiment.
Suddenly shifting a Lions winger to fullback and playing one of your core squad players in the same position he plays for his club nowadays, doesn't seem quite so silly does it. But again, obviously the Monye move was a mistake.
Will you come back to this topic next season saying that "Banahan isn't a centre" if/when Bath play him there for the majority of the season?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:06:30:17:20:49 by tigeroo.
Tigeroo,
Yet again you've mistaken me for someone who gives a monkey's about what other international coaches do! I'm interested in what happens with England.
My point is simple; if England wish to try players out of position there are sufficient opportunities for them to do so without using a full test for the experiment! That said, I accept your point that sometimes it might be done out of necessity but, from the pool available, not to start a match !
Yet again you've mistaken me for someone who gives a monkey's about what other international coaches do! I'm interested in what happens with England.
My point is simple; if England wish to try players out of position there are sufficient opportunities for them to do so without using a full test for the experiment! That said, I accept your point that sometimes it might be done out of necessity but, from the pool available, not to start a match !
Quote:My point is simple; if England wish to try players out of position there are sufficient opportunities for them to do so without using a full test for the experiment!
What opportunities exactly, if not in a Test match? A Barbarians game once a year, and...?
Experimenting with player positions happens in international rugby, get over it. Sometimes it works (Jamie Roberts), sometimes it doesn't (Monye), and sometimes the jury is still out (Banahan, Smit, Hines etc). I don't know enough about Bath but I get the impression they see Banahan as a centre now. He certainly has the skillset to do well, just about getting the experience now.
As you are someone who always spouts off about the importance of playing "safe" rugby in internationals, I am surprised that you now seem to advocate a much riskier game. You really need to be more consistent with your PoV.
As I maintain, the time for trialling players in experiments is NOT the Test arena; surely that is one of the purposes of the levels below.
As I maintain, the time for trialling players in experiments is NOT the Test arena; surely that is one of the purposes of the levels below.
You mean like Harlequins trialling Monye at fullback and Bath playing Banahan at centre? That would be those 'levels below' you speak of. (even though your original point made it clear that there were opportunities for England to experiment, away from a Test match). Again, international sides don't always have the luxury of two year testing and trialling a player in an unfamiliar position. Sometimes players are thrown in (usually out of necessity) and coaches hope for the best.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:06:30:20:53:29 by tigeroo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:06:30:20:53:29 by tigeroo.
No, not necessarily at club level. There is an international structure in England which includes the "Saxons", for experimentation in suitability to the top arena.
Stephen Donald has just signed to play in france, England should pick him. He is a great 1st Five.
Horowhenua what are you on about? He will be playing for Bath next season as a fly half. Last time I checked Bath was in England.
Tigeroo most of those examples haven't really been success stories. Jamie Roberts - true but the others?Nathan Hines wasn't a success in the backrow. Fitzgerald has been woeful at FB when I have seen him there.Andrea Masi showed in the 6 nations where his best position is.Sean Lamont is a winger not centre. Hook proved that fly half is his best position.
Most of your examples have failed.
Banahan is not a centre bit like Monye and Hook are not full backs. Bergamasco is not a scrum half. Masi is not a fly half. Hines is not a backrow. Schalk Burger is not a no 8. Positions in rugby require specialist skills. You cannot just shunt around people for fun.
Tigeroo most of those examples haven't really been success stories. Jamie Roberts - true but the others?Nathan Hines wasn't a success in the backrow. Fitzgerald has been woeful at FB when I have seen him there.Andrea Masi showed in the 6 nations where his best position is.Sean Lamont is a winger not centre. Hook proved that fly half is his best position.
Most of your examples have failed.
Banahan is not a centre bit like Monye and Hook are not full backs. Bergamasco is not a scrum half. Masi is not a fly half. Hines is not a backrow. Schalk Burger is not a no 8. Positions in rugby require specialist skills. You cannot just shunt around people for fun.
Quote:Johnson has played Banahan out of choice on two occasions.
What a bizarre statement. Are you suggesting that Banahan was picked for the Ireland match against Johnson's will?
Beshocked, I honestly dont care where he is playing to be honest, I just glad he has left the country. He is horrible, wouldnt be surprised if he ends up playing for Eng at some stage in the future though.
Horowhenua,
You do realise that once a player is capped for a nation, from that moment on they can't play for another... right?
Dobbin, sorry you know what I meant I'm sure. His selection v Ireland was because of an injury to Tindall. My point was, Johnson clearly wants to ease Banahan in to playing Test match rugby at centre.
beshocked,
Yes, in a perfect world players would stick to their natural position and not deviate, but sadly real life isn't like that. Banahan is now a centre at his club, and Johnson is trying him out there for England, it really isn't that big a deal.
I ask again, will you come back to this topic next season saying that "Banahan isn't a centre" if/when Bath play him there for the majority of the season?
Also please tell me, why is it acceptable to state Waldrom (0 caps) isn't good enough to play for England, but when I suggest the same about Barritt (0 caps) you state 'how do you know if he hasn't been given an opportunity'?
Clearly you know better than Johnson, Mallett, Gatland, Kidney, Lievrement, Robinson, P Divvy, Deans and Henry. They all experiment with shifting players around, but you know better. It should never happen. Ever.
You do realise that once a player is capped for a nation, from that moment on they can't play for another... right?
Dobbin, sorry you know what I meant I'm sure. His selection v Ireland was because of an injury to Tindall. My point was, Johnson clearly wants to ease Banahan in to playing Test match rugby at centre.
beshocked,
Yes, in a perfect world players would stick to their natural position and not deviate, but sadly real life isn't like that. Banahan is now a centre at his club, and Johnson is trying him out there for England, it really isn't that big a deal.
I ask again, will you come back to this topic next season saying that "Banahan isn't a centre" if/when Bath play him there for the majority of the season?
Also please tell me, why is it acceptable to state Waldrom (0 caps) isn't good enough to play for England, but when I suggest the same about Barritt (0 caps) you state 'how do you know if he hasn't been given an opportunity'?
Quote:Banahan is not a centre bit like Monye and Hook are not full backs. Bergamasco is not a scrum half. Masi is not a fly half. Hines is not a backrow. Schalk Burger is not a no 8. Positions in rugby require specialist skills. You cannot just shunt around people for fun.
Clearly you know better than Johnson, Mallett, Gatland, Kidney, Lievrement, Robinson, P Divvy, Deans and Henry. They all experiment with shifting players around, but you know better. It should never happen. Ever.
"Clearly you know better than Johnson, Mallett, Gatland, Kidney, Lievrement, Robinson, P Divvy, Deans and Henry. They all experiment with shifting players around, but you know better. It should never happen. Ever."
As ever, you are right! Who can forget the inspired shift by Mallet of Bergamasco to Scrum Half ? And as you spend every possible opportunity on every board highlighting the endless failings of Gatland, it seems strange that you should now defend him to endorse your latest bizarre PoV. All in my humble opinion of course.
As ever, you are right! Who can forget the inspired shift by Mallet of Bergamasco to Scrum Half ? And as you spend every possible opportunity on every board highlighting the endless failings of Gatland, it seems strange that you should now defend him to endorse your latest bizarre PoV. All in my humble opinion of course.
Mallett and Bergamasco? I thought you conveniently only wanted to discuss England?
This bizarre POV you speak of is quite simple and there's nothing new about it. Players are shifted around and tried in new positions all the time at international level either because of injury, wanting to fit them somewhere in the team or to adopt a specific gameplan. It's not ideal but it happens. The Monye experiment was a big mistake. Banahan, the jury's out. He has the skills to do well there.
This bizarre POV you speak of is quite simple and there's nothing new about it. Players are shifted around and tried in new positions all the time at international level either because of injury, wanting to fit them somewhere in the team or to adopt a specific gameplan. It's not ideal but it happens. The Monye experiment was a big mistake. Banahan, the jury's out. He has the skills to do well there.
Oh dear, Tigeroo. Are you able to have a conversation without twisting everything to somehow try and make your viewpoint credible?
Where have I said that I "conveniently only wanted to discuss England?" There is a massive difference between stating that I don't give a monkey's about what other international coaches do, which is what I actually said, and pointing out factual examples where your latest rambling falls short of the mark!
Where have I said that I "conveniently only wanted to discuss England?" There is a massive difference between stating that I don't give a monkey's about what other international coaches do, which is what I actually said, and pointing out factual examples where your latest rambling falls short of the mark!
Oh dear arquero, you say you don't give a monkey's about what other international coaches do (surely a bit ignorant and small-minded, why not expand your discussion to the entire rugby world?) but then you say...
Now, if you're capable of discussing [i]rugby[i], we can get back on topic please?
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Quote:Who can forget the inspired shift by Mallet of Bergamasco to Scrum Half ?
Now, if you're capable of discussing [i]rugby[i], we can get back on topic please?
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"Play O'Connor in midfield" - Horan
Tigeroo,
Have you even bothered to read my previous post? Read it slowly, then you might begin to understand the difference between "giving a monkey's about" and "taking cognizance of" what is going on!
Given your own, and singular, style of posting on the rugby network boards, I fail to see how you can accuse me of being incapable of discussing rugby!
For your benefit alone, the point I made on this particular thread was intentionally simple, yet you have still failed to address it. Given that the England management have at their disposal the pick of the crop and, I believe, the largest pool of players to call upon in the world of rugby union, I still cannot fathom why there is a need to start players out of their recognised and special positions by choice. I also cannot understand why the elite end of the game here is the place to experiment with said strategy. Is that really such a difficult observation to understand and give a valid explanation for?
I am always happy to be educated by those in the know, so why not start by telling me why this particular approach of moving players into different, and often untried, positions suits England? Oh, and while you're at it, as I know from your posts about Gatland and Wales that you are particularly concerned about the right motivation, how the leap-frogging of specialist players by relative novices, is good for team morale?
Have you even bothered to read my previous post? Read it slowly, then you might begin to understand the difference between "giving a monkey's about" and "taking cognizance of" what is going on!
Given your own, and singular, style of posting on the rugby network boards, I fail to see how you can accuse me of being incapable of discussing rugby!
For your benefit alone, the point I made on this particular thread was intentionally simple, yet you have still failed to address it. Given that the England management have at their disposal the pick of the crop and, I believe, the largest pool of players to call upon in the world of rugby union, I still cannot fathom why there is a need to start players out of their recognised and special positions by choice. I also cannot understand why the elite end of the game here is the place to experiment with said strategy. Is that really such a difficult observation to understand and give a valid explanation for?
I am always happy to be educated by those in the know, so why not start by telling me why this particular approach of moving players into different, and often untried, positions suits England? Oh, and while you're at it, as I know from your posts about Gatland and Wales that you are particularly concerned about the right motivation, how the leap-frogging of specialist players by relative novices, is good for team morale?
Nice to see you willing to discuss rugby for a change.
There's a difference between a core squad player (Banahan) being played in a new position of outside centre, potentially leap frogging a specialist... and bringing a player in who's played a few hours of rugby in two years and has clear commitment and personal issues.
Again, Bath consider Banahan a centre these days (Bath lot pls correct me if I'm wrong), and he's being played there 2-3 times for England, it's a non-issue. Let him grow into the role and see how he develops and gets on.
I'm bored of talking about Monye at fullback for two games, it was a huge mistake and couldn't have done Monye's confidence any good. Johnson's admitted he made mistakes, unlike Gatland who never admits it (never his fault, always blaming others).
Apart from those two examples in three years, that's the only shifting around Johnson's done. It really isn't a big deal.
Back to the point of this topic, injury-allowing I think we can all name 25 of the players who'll be on the plane to NZ, be interesting to number of specialist positions like hooker, 9 and 10 he'll take. If Youngs' knee is a bit dodgy will he risk only taking 2 scrum halves?
There's a difference between a core squad player (Banahan) being played in a new position of outside centre, potentially leap frogging a specialist... and bringing a player in who's played a few hours of rugby in two years and has clear commitment and personal issues.
Again, Bath consider Banahan a centre these days (Bath lot pls correct me if I'm wrong), and he's being played there 2-3 times for England, it's a non-issue. Let him grow into the role and see how he develops and gets on.
I'm bored of talking about Monye at fullback for two games, it was a huge mistake and couldn't have done Monye's confidence any good. Johnson's admitted he made mistakes, unlike Gatland who never admits it (never his fault, always blaming others).
Apart from those two examples in three years, that's the only shifting around Johnson's done. It really isn't a big deal.
Back to the point of this topic, injury-allowing I think we can all name 25 of the players who'll be on the plane to NZ, be interesting to number of specialist positions like hooker, 9 and 10 he'll take. If Youngs' knee is a bit dodgy will he risk only taking 2 scrum halves?
Thanks for finally answering my point; what a shame it was 20 posts later than it could've been!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:07:03:21:30:20 by arquero.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011:07:03:21:30:20 by arquero.
Tigeroo you might call Banahan a core squad player but he is not good enough to start in the position he was first picked for England - winger. Cueto and Ashton are the two starting wingers. The likes of JSD and Strettle aren't far behind the starters. This whole discussion about Banahan comes from the woeful options we have at centre because MJ won't pick Allen and Barritt.
Until Banahan actually proves himself in anyway against a good side as a centre I won't rate him. What exactly has he done as a centre? He's possibly a flat track bully. No more.
My centres would be Tindall,Tuliagi,Lowe,Barritt and Allen.
Barritt and Allen have been the best two inside centres in the AP for the last 2 years. Both have played in two AP finals in the last 2 years, winning one each.
George Lowe and Manu Tuliagi are two bright young prospects at outside centre. Tindall is there to help them develop.
Gatland has made some woeful decisions with Wales too. E.g. playing Phillips at scrum half and Hook at full back. After his honeymoon period he has gone downhill but that's a Welsh matter.
Difference between Waldrom and Barritt. One has an English mother, has won the AP final this year, is the best inside centre in the AP, outplayed the other best 12 in the final. One is an overrated Kiwi who has magically unearthed an English grandmother. He is 2nd fiddle to a player not even considered for the England squad. Found to be ineffective in the final.
You also seem to think we are so desperate at inside centre we need to rely on Hape and Banahan! We don't! Our best centres are being left at home.
With hindsight yes I have been proven correct over those coaches you mention.
Banahan might well become a centre next season but will he be any good? I doubt it.
Essentially England's biggest weaknesses are no 8 and the centres. Other sides will attack us there and rightly so. MJ has made no effort to strengthen these areas.
I think in the 6 nations bar Ryan Jones of Wales we have the worst no 8. This is without including the Southern Hemisphere. Our centres are woeful too - I think ours are the worst in the 6 nations. Yes even worse than Italy's.
Until Banahan actually proves himself in anyway against a good side as a centre I won't rate him. What exactly has he done as a centre? He's possibly a flat track bully. No more.
My centres would be Tindall,Tuliagi,Lowe,Barritt and Allen.
Barritt and Allen have been the best two inside centres in the AP for the last 2 years. Both have played in two AP finals in the last 2 years, winning one each.
George Lowe and Manu Tuliagi are two bright young prospects at outside centre. Tindall is there to help them develop.
Gatland has made some woeful decisions with Wales too. E.g. playing Phillips at scrum half and Hook at full back. After his honeymoon period he has gone downhill but that's a Welsh matter.
Difference between Waldrom and Barritt. One has an English mother, has won the AP final this year, is the best inside centre in the AP, outplayed the other best 12 in the final. One is an overrated Kiwi who has magically unearthed an English grandmother. He is 2nd fiddle to a player not even considered for the England squad. Found to be ineffective in the final.
You also seem to think we are so desperate at inside centre we need to rely on Hape and Banahan! We don't! Our best centres are being left at home.
With hindsight yes I have been proven correct over those coaches you mention.
Banahan might well become a centre next season but will he be any good? I doubt it.
Essentially England's biggest weaknesses are no 8 and the centres. Other sides will attack us there and rightly so. MJ has made no effort to strengthen these areas.
I think in the 6 nations bar Ryan Jones of Wales we have the worst no 8. This is without including the Southern Hemisphere. Our centres are woeful too - I think ours are the worst in the 6 nations. Yes even worse than Italy's.
I'm not sure whether this belongs on this thread but, following the latest shenanigans at the Ah-Eff-You, MJ is certainly going to have to show his mettle to keep himself and his squad focussed for the RWC in a few months time.
It's shameful the behaviour of some of those at the top of the pile, and the farce is of such proportions that, if Brian Rix is still active, he would be the ideal candidate for the Chairmanship, IMHO!
Thankfully, if one person can stay out of the k-rap that is going on all around him and maintain the job in hand with the players, I'd say that man is Johnno. Another good excuse to keep in reserve in case England fail to do well at RWC, though.
However, imagine if this were happening with Wales, this board would be alight with the posts of one particular individual!
It's shameful the behaviour of some of those at the top of the pile, and the farce is of such proportions that, if Brian Rix is still active, he would be the ideal candidate for the Chairmanship, IMHO!
Thankfully, if one person can stay out of the k-rap that is going on all around him and maintain the job in hand with the players, I'd say that man is Johnno. Another good excuse to keep in reserve in case England fail to do well at RWC, though.
However, imagine if this were happening with Wales, this board would be alight with the posts of one particular individual!
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