Northampton Saints
Saints v Saracens - Playoff - Teams Up
By Saint Ted
May 12 2023
This is the Saracens v Northampton Saints playoff thread
Who: Saracens v Northampton Saints
Where: StoneX Stadium
When: Saturday 13th May 2023; 15:30
How do I watch: BT Sport 2/Ultimate
Tickets: Few left at Saracens
Saints take: Saints O'ffy
Officials:
Referee: Karl Dickson
Assistant referees: Ian Tempest and Sara Cox
No.4: Gareth Holsgrove
TMO: Stuart Terheege
| Northampton Saints | Saracens | |
| George Furbank | 15 | Alex Goode |
| James Ramm | 14 | Max Malins |
| Fraser Dingwall | 13 | Alex Lozowski |
| Rory Hutchinson | 12 | Nick Tompkins |
| Tommy Freeman | 11 | Sean Maitland |
| Fin Smith | 10 | Owen Farrell (c) |
| Alex Mitchell | 9 | Ivan Van Zyl |
| Alex Waller | 1 | Mako Vunipola |
| Tom Cruse | 2 | Jamie George |
| Trevor Davison | 3 | Marco Riccioni |
| David Ribbans | 4 | Maro Itoje |
| Alex Moon | 5 | Hugh Tizard |
| Courtney Lawes | 6 | Nick Isiekwe |
| Lewis Ludlam (c) | 7 | Ben Earl |
| Juarno Augustus | 8 | Jackson Wray |
| Replacements: | ||
| Robbie Smith | 16 | Theo Dan |
| Ethan Waller | 17 | Eroni Mawi |
| Paul Hill | 18 | Christian Judge |
| Lukhan Salakaia-Loto | 19 | Callum Hunter-Hill |
| Angus Scott-Young | 20 | Toby Knight |
| Sam Graham | 21 | Ruben de Haas |
| Tom James | 22 | Duncan Taylor |
| Tom Collins | 23 | Elliot Daly |
Not considered for selection:
Geordie Irvine, Emmanuel Iyogun, Joel Matavesi, Sam Matavesi, Matt Proctor, and Ollie Sleightholme.
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StumbleuponSaints v Saracens - Playoff - Teams Up
Discussion started by Marching On , 12/05/2023 13:22
Marching On
12/05/2023 13:22
12/05/2023 13:22
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:26:08:01:41 by Saint Ted.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:26:08:01:41 by Saint Ted.
Would have love Marty P on the bench. Coveres centres and wing. Presume Colin’s fb and wing, with oh Tommy fremmo on wing fulllback and centre?
would imagine that Matty P's proctective boot would hamper his pace though. Although his crutches could be useful in the tackle.*
Tom James has been training to cover wing too so all bases are covered in the backs assuming we don’t have a number of unfortunate injuries!
Looks good, but the Sarries side is formidable. We'll have to be at our best to win, but we do have a reasonable record there and have kept the last few games pretty close. The pitch and weather tomorrow should suit our game too. Hoping the travelling support will be a big boost to the team too, the home fans are not particularly loud - let's do a Munster to them.
Why not us?
Why not us?
Front row - advantage Sarries (Vunipola, George, Riccioni vs Waller, Cruse, Davison)
Second row - all square (Itoje, Tizard vs Ribbans, Moon)
Back row - adv Saints (Isiekwe, Earl, Wray vs Lawes, Ludlum, Augustus)
Half backs - all square (van Zyl, Farrell vs Mitchell, Smith)
Centres - all square (Tomkins, Lozowski vs Dingwall, Hutchinson)
Back 3 - all square (Goode, Maitland, Malins vs Furbank, Freeman, Ramm
Benches - Daly and Mawi add lots for Sarries. Salakaia-Loto and Collins also have the potential to change the game.
Second row - all square (Itoje, Tizard vs Ribbans, Moon)
Back row - adv Saints (Isiekwe, Earl, Wray vs Lawes, Ludlum, Augustus)
Half backs - all square (van Zyl, Farrell vs Mitchell, Smith)
Centres - all square (Tomkins, Lozowski vs Dingwall, Hutchinson)
Back 3 - all square (Goode, Maitland, Malins vs Furbank, Freeman, Ramm
Benches - Daly and Mawi add lots for Sarries. Salakaia-Loto and Collins also have the potential to change the game.
Broadly agree Londonsaint, think their second row edges it perhaps, but prefer our back three. Think their bench front row looks stronger, but like our bench lock and back row options.
But I think the test will be can Saints tighten defence and discipline and play as an effective unit as well as Sarries do?
But I think the test will be can Saints tighten defence and discipline and play as an effective unit as well as Sarries do?
I'd agree about the going to sleep.
Two big areas to be on our toes, the first 15 minutes, we have had a tendancy to be 14 down before waking up, really need to make a big forward impact at the start
Second when we get, if we do, in front on the score board, we have seen it a few times, game won, few subs on, next thing you know we defending a slim lead and under the cosh.
However, I do look at the team sheet and feel if we can get Tommy and James in space we have a really good chance.
Two big areas to be on our toes, the first 15 minutes, we have had a tendancy to be 14 down before waking up, really need to make a big forward impact at the start
Second when we get, if we do, in front on the score board, we have seen it a few times, game won, few subs on, next thing you know we defending a slim lead and under the cosh.
However, I do look at the team sheet and feel if we can get Tommy and James in space we have a really good chance.
Sadly, discipline under Dickson is somewhat of a lottery.
Hopefully it stays dry and we don't knock on as the scrum looks like an area of dominance for Sarries in particular.
Hopefully it stays dry and we don't knock on as the scrum looks like an area of dominance for Sarries in particular.
Quote:Londonsaint
Front row - advantage Sarries (Vunipola, George, Riccioni vs Waller, Cruse, Davison)
Second row - all square (Itoje, Tizard vs Ribbans, Moon)
Back row - adv Saints (Isiekwe, Earl, Wray vs Lawes, Ludlum, Augustus)
Half backs - all square (van Zyl, Farrell vs Mitchell, Smith)
Centres - all square (Tomkins, Lozowski vs Dingwall, Hutchinson)
If you break it down to groups of individuals I don't think there is that between the sides but I would give them the edge at half backs, second row and make the back row even. Where I believe they are some way ahead of us is as a team, the ability to control the game or change the way they play, etc.
Back 3 - all square (Goode, Maitland, Malins vs Furbank, Freeman, Ramm
Benches - Daly and Mawi add lots for Sarries. Salakaia-Loto and Collins also have the potential to change the game.
Not sure Dickson can afford a bad match after recent publicity whether that was wholly justified or not……..
High intensity for every second of the match. Physicality. Win the gain line.
If we do that we have a chance.
If we do that we have a chance.
That's a bloody good Sarries team. Pity we're without Matavesi.
Never say never, but it's a big ask for sure.
Never say never, but it's a big ask for sure.
On paper the teams looks pretty even which a few years back wouldn’t have been possible. They’d have had a bench stacked full of top draw internationals like Skelton and Burger. So they look beatable.
Our defence has to be at its best collectively and individually. Trust the system. No dog legs. No shooting out the line Hutch et al. But still being aggressive in defence. More heroics like Mitchell’s tackle on Radwan last game.
Patience, composure and discipline. If it’s on go for it but avoid the overly risky 30/70 offloads liable to be knocked on. If we keep hold of the ball we will score. It’s not a big Sarries team. We have the players to stress their defence. Given size they will need to stay tight to counter the crash ball threat of the likes of Augustus, Lawes, Ribbans, Moon and Ludlam which allows more space out wide.
No easy penalties. Make them work for territory. Play smart. We are a threat to any team with 15 but concede points with 14 so better concede the try and play with 15 than give away a yellow. We can score tries. They have only 3 decent lineout options so pressurise their lineout. Be wary of the risk of kicking the ball over the dead ball line on the artificial pitch. Highlight to the ref when Sarries are going offside as they like to do. Work hard tracking back to protect our catchers. Get in their faces and let them know they are in for a fight. Celebrate like Itoje when we get a turnover.
Sarries are rightly favourites but we showed against Tigers last year we are a threat and it feels like a game we can win - if we get the gameplan right and execute it well.
COYS!!!
Our defence has to be at its best collectively and individually. Trust the system. No dog legs. No shooting out the line Hutch et al. But still being aggressive in defence. More heroics like Mitchell’s tackle on Radwan last game.
Patience, composure and discipline. If it’s on go for it but avoid the overly risky 30/70 offloads liable to be knocked on. If we keep hold of the ball we will score. It’s not a big Sarries team. We have the players to stress their defence. Given size they will need to stay tight to counter the crash ball threat of the likes of Augustus, Lawes, Ribbans, Moon and Ludlam which allows more space out wide.
No easy penalties. Make them work for territory. Play smart. We are a threat to any team with 15 but concede points with 14 so better concede the try and play with 15 than give away a yellow. We can score tries. They have only 3 decent lineout options so pressurise their lineout. Be wary of the risk of kicking the ball over the dead ball line on the artificial pitch. Highlight to the ref when Sarries are going offside as they like to do. Work hard tracking back to protect our catchers. Get in their faces and let them know they are in for a fight. Celebrate like Itoje when we get a turnover.
Sarries are rightly favourites but we showed against Tigers last year we are a threat and it feels like a game we can win - if we get the gameplan right and execute it well.
COYS!!!
Quote:Saint Maul
On paper the teams looks pretty even which a few years back wouldn’t have been possible. They’d have had a bench stacked full of top draw internationals like Skelton and Burger. So they look beatable.
Our defence has to be at its best collectively and individually. Trust the system. No dog legs. No shooting out the line Hutch et al. But still being aggressive in defence. More heroics like Mitchell’s tackle on Radwan last game.
Patience, composure and discipline. If it’s on go for it but avoid the overly risky 30/70 offloads liable to be knocked on. If we keep hold of the ball we will score. It’s not a big Sarries team. We have the players to stress their defence. Given size they will need to stay tight to counter the crash ball threat of the likes of Augustus, Lawes, Ribbans, Moon and Ludlam which allows more space out wide.
No easy penalties. Make them work for territory. Play smart. We are a threat to any team with 15 but concede points with 14 so better concede the try and play with 15 than give away a yellow. We can score tries. They have only 3 decent lineout options so pressurise their lineout. Be wary of the risk of kicking the ball over the dead ball line on the artificial pitch. Highlight to the ref when Sarries are going offside as they like to do. Work hard tracking back to protect our catchers. Get in their faces and let them know they are in for a fight. Celebrate like Itoje when we get a turnover.
Sarries are rightly favourites but we showed against Tigers last year we are a threat and it feels like a game we can win - if we get the gameplan right and execute it well.
COYS!!!
Can we please stick you in the dressing room tomorrow !
Surprised Sam Matevasi isn't on the team sheet tomorrow considering he hasn't been named in the Navy squad for the Army Navy match tomorrow. Has he picked up an injury recently?
Also, as fantastic as Sam is, he is a little loose at times. Tomorrow we need our hooker to just do their job and do it well. There are games where we need Sams overall game but knockout rugby is about not making simple mistakes and keeping up pressure. I think its better for us all this way.
Why does an amateur game take priority over a pro game that pays him?
Quote:Olneybutchers
Why does an amateur game take priority over a pro game that pays him?
Because to the thousands of service men and women who follow the game, the Twickenham game is more important. The RN - and Army - understand that.
And the RN do pay him. He is employed by the RN and loaned to Saints.
My service days ended nearly thirty years ago but as far as I recall, Inter-service games were not well attended or followed by many other than those directly involved. The Army-Navy game appears to have become a much more social event than it once was which perhaps explains the conflict of interest this weekend. It’s hard for the player because he is torn between two groups of mates - it would be fascinating to know who made the final decision. Are there any other Service personnel playing in the Premiership these days other than Sam ?
Meanwhile we move on - Tom Cruse is no mug and Robbie Smith will be eager to get back in the groove as the Clubs best option in the number two shirt.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:08:54:41 by NGSB.
Meanwhile we move on - Tom Cruse is no mug and Robbie Smith will be eager to get back in the groove as the Clubs best option in the number two shirt.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:08:54:41 by NGSB.
Quote:NGSB
My service days ended nearly thirty years ago but as far as I recall, Inter-service games were not well attended or followed by many other than those directly involved. The Army-Navy game appears to have become a much more social event than it once was which perhaps explains the conflict of interest this weekend. It’s hard for the player because he is torn between two groups of mates - it would be fascinating to know who made the final decision. Are there any other Service personnel playing in the Premiership these days other than Sam ?
Meanwhile we move on - Tom Cruse is no mug and Robbie Smith will be eager to get back in the groove as the Clubs best option in the number two shirt.
A recent RN~Army game at Twickenham saw 83,000 attendees. It was described as a "Record for an amateur game"!
I had the good fortune to attend three, watching my son in law. I have never felt or witnessed such an atmosphere in or around the ground.
Chris Budgen and Semesa Rokoduguni were two regular Army players when S-I-L was playing. Jack Prasad has been playing for the Army at Fly Half for longer than chicken it seems.
Quote:LongersQuote:NGSB
My service days ended nearly thirty years ago but as far as I recall, Inter-service games were not well attended or followed by many other than those directly involved. The Army-Navy game appears to have become a much more social event than it once was which perhaps explains the conflict of interest this weekend. It’s hard for the player because he is torn between two groups of mates - it would be fascinating to know who made the final decision. Are there any other Service personnel playing in the Premiership these days other than Sam ?
Meanwhile we move on - Tom Cruse is no mug and Robbie Smith will be eager to get back in the groove as the Clubs best option in the number two shirt.
A recent RN~Army game at Twickenham saw 83,000 attendees. It was described as a "Record for an amateur game"!
I had the good fortune to attend three, watching my son in law. I have never felt or witnessed such an atmosphere in or around the ground.
Chris Budgen and Semesa Rokoduguni were two regular Army players when S-I-L was playing. Jack Prasad has been playing for the Army at Fly Half for longer than chicken it seems.
Seriously impressive figures and a far cry from what once was the case ! If only a few more of these people turned up at the Mobbs Memorial games at The Gardens and Goldington Road !
Arguably I would probably not sign an armed forces player if they will miss the biggest game of the season. Would never ever happen in any other sport.
Quote:Olneybutchers
Arguably I would probably not sign an armed forces player if they will miss the biggest game of the season. Would never ever happen in any other sport.
He's not. He's playing in it.
Seriously impressive figures and a far cry from what once was the case ! If only a few more of these people turned up at the Mobbs Memorial games at The Gardens and Goldington Road ![/quote]
There are many veterans who attend these matches so unsure where your comment comes from. The large majority of those servicemen and women attending this match are normally at bases across the country when the Mobbs match is being played so you can hardly expect them to travel 300-500 miles round trip for this match, a distance I used to have to regularly travel home at weekends if I wanted to watch saints at home.
There are many veterans who attend these matches so unsure where your comment comes from. The large majority of those servicemen and women attending this match are normally at bases across the country when the Mobbs match is being played so you can hardly expect them to travel 300-500 miles round trip for this match, a distance I used to have to regularly travel home at weekends if I wanted to watch saints at home.
Quote:Olneybutchers
Arguably I would probably not sign an armed forces player if they will miss the biggest game of the season. Would never ever happen in any other sport.
Your choice but with that sort of thinking the likes of Rory Underwood, Semesa Rokoduguni and many others would never have played international rugby.
They miss only one game in a season and the clubs get a lot more with having them since they are still servicemen and therefore do not command the high wages being paid to some others.
Quote:Stokey
Shouldn't be on the pitch. Dickson making things up as he goes!
Absolutely bizarre decision not to card him. Even Healey was in favour...
Talk about the ref favouring the dominant team. Someone should tell Dickson that it's only during the match, not the whole season.
I think sarries are a good enough side to only play with 15 blokes, don't think they need Dickson but don't think he's got the message
Alex waller. What are you doing there. Don't deserve to win games when your players do that there. Brainless.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:16:03:41 by herbie85.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:16:03:41 by herbie85.
Wow Alex Waller after a great season for a senior player that was absolutely shocking. Dickson has had a shocker - Maitland has repeatedly taken players out in the air - but now we're imploding. Just need to get some possession and momentum though as defensively we've been good at times.
Men against boys.
We appear to have lost all knowledge of how the game is played. Very odd.
We can moan about Dickson all we want but it’s nothing to do with him at this point.
I’d be furious as a travelling supporter. What’s the point?
We appear to have lost all knowledge of how the game is played. Very odd.
We can moan about Dickson all we want but it’s nothing to do with him at this point.
I’d be furious as a travelling supporter. What’s the point?
Well it could have been a different game had Dickson made a braver decision early doors. But we're getting physically dominated here.
Quote:shiversaint
Men against boys.
We appear to have lost all knowledge of how the game is played. Very odd.
We can moan about Dickson all we want but it’s nothing to do with him at this point.
I’d be furious as a travelling supporter. What’s the point?
Agreed, Dickson has been poor imho but we've been worse.
Quote:herbie85
Alex waller. What are you doing there. Don't deserve to win games when your players do that there. Brainless.
Absolutley shocking from such an experienced player. No wonder he made such a good captain!!
Quote:That was an elbow to the chops, ffs.herbie85Quote:Stokey
Shouldn't be on the pitch. Dickson making things up as he goes!
Absolutely bizarre decision not to card him. Even Healey was in favour...
Oh well, I have a game in just under two hours, gotta go - if Saints lose, not my fault!
Dickson is rubbish but will not be the reason we lose this game.
We look like a side who are happy to sneak into top 4 and leave it at that.
Poor performance from a lot of players, maybe rusty after a few weeks no game time but you get what you put in and saints are getting what they deserve.
Poor decision making, poor execution sums up saints in the first half.
We look like a side who are happy to sneak into top 4 and leave it at that.
Poor performance from a lot of players, maybe rusty after a few weeks no game time but you get what you put in and saints are getting what they deserve.
Poor decision making, poor execution sums up saints in the first half.
Earls hand on the floor before the ball but let's not let laws get in the way of Dickson decision.
Sarries by far the better side but come on ref, there are 2 sides playing today!
Sarries by far the better side but come on ref, there are 2 sides playing today!
Quote:herbie85
Well it could have been a different game had Dickson made a braver decision early doors. But we're getting physically dominated here.
You know as well as I do that it wouldn’t make a jot of difference.
Haven’t seen Sarries coast like this in a long time.
Sums it up, the one thing going well is the line out drive and Mitchell takes it quickly and runs into a wall of five instead of going for the corner. Brain dead rugby
Quote:shiversaintQuote:herbie85
Well it could have been a different game had Dickson made a braver decision early doors. But we're getting physically dominated here.
You know as well as I do that it wouldn’t make a jot of difference.
Haven’t seen Sarries coast like this in a long time.
May have been more respectable against 14!
Fair enough we have a disparity in salary cap spend, but why are we so weedy and physically inept. Whole new coaching dept required.
Bristol fan here, so neutral....very confused how there was no sanction against Maitland for reckless challenge / head contact
Quote:henners0
Bristol fan here, so neutral....very confused how there was no sanction against Maitland for reckless challenge / head contact
Baffling decision for sure
2 tries by a player who shouldn't have been on the pitch and some terrible reffing decisions from Dickson. Granted we're not playing well but having almost every major decision go against you must have a mental and momentum impact.
Wallers stupidity another matter!
Wallers stupidity another matter!
Saints 2nd best. Dickson poor. Commentary one sided. Just heard Day-Glo give saints credit, did he lose the script.
Don't misunderstand me Sarries are deservingly have the lead but things going their way
Don't misunderstand me Sarries are deservingly have the lead but things going their way
Truly awful first half, only upside is they still have 40 minutes to restore some pride and put in a better performance, hopefully they will and it won’t end in another embarrassing defeat.
Quote:henners0
Bristol fan here, so neutral....very confused how there was no sanction against Maitland for reckless challenge / head contact
Can only assume Dickson's recent spotlight on card decisions has played a part, also with how early in the match it was. May have missed it, but there seemed a surprising lack of TMO input on it?
Quote:shiversaintQuote:herbie85
Well it could have been a different game had Dickson made a braver decision early doors. But we're getting physically dominated here.
You know as well as I do that it wouldn’t make a jot of difference.
Haven’t seen Sarries coast like this in a long time.
Disagree - sarries don't get two of their tries if Matiland is off the field and the third if Waller doesn't switch off. And then it's pretty difficult to compete when you get pingged consistently and the other team doesn't at all - its even being picked up by independent critics. Sarries still clearly dominant and saints need to change that but they haven't been given a chance.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:16:28:20 by Saintfanh.
Quote:SaintfanhQuote:shiversaintQuote:herbie85
Well it could have been a different game had Dickson made a braver decision early doors. But we're getting physically dominated here.
You know as well as I do that it wouldn’t make a jot of difference.
Haven’t seen Sarries coast like this in a long time.
Disagree - sarries don't get two of their tries if Matiland is off the field and the third if Waller doesn't switch off. And then it's pretty difficult to compete when you get pingged consistently and the other team doesn't at all. Sarries still clearly dominant and saints need to change that but they haven't been given a chance.
Bro, Sarries would win with a neutral ref and 14 men. There's a genuine gulf in quality that is bigger than any match officials input.
Maitland - rugby incident for me. His hands went up to protect himself from the fall / collision after the two player's lower bodies had already made contact.
Waller - at the match so without the benefit of hearing the ref, but he looked to get back off the ball really quick so I assume he was told to leave it. Which he did, so why whistle so fast?
Got to cut the errors for this second half and find some penetration. Have we managed a line break yet?
Waller - at the match so without the benefit of hearing the ref, but he looked to get back off the ball really quick so I assume he was told to leave it. Which he did, so why whistle so fast?
Got to cut the errors for this second half and find some penetration. Have we managed a line break yet?
Quote:Matthew
...
Waller - at the match so without the benefit of hearing the ref, but he looked to get back off the ball really quick so I assume he was told to leave it. Which he did, so why whistle so fast?
...
He was told to leave but picked it up anyway.
BB
Well I think they have decided to carry on as they were, no pace, no accuracy, no heart, no pride
It’s irrelevant to the game I appreciate that, but if the shot clock is up why is he allowed to take the kick
Quote:Berkshire-Saint
It’s irrelevant to the game I appreciate that, but if the shot clock is up why is he allowed to take the kick
Well it’s simple - he’s not supposed to and ref should have called it.
But if there’s one thing you know KD will do, that is add a flavour of his own to the law book.
Shameful that the RFU back this guy, but hey ho, saints have bigger problems right now.
Lots of negativity on here, did anyone expect any different? In all honesty, how many of our players would get into that Saracens team? I reckon 2.
Dickson has made some shockers which have impacted the game. But Saint’s performance is probably about what I would have expected.
Dickson has made some shockers which have impacted the game. But Saint’s performance is probably about what I would have expected.
Quote:As he so often does when not given an armchair ride.Pint of Export
Mitchell having a shocker
Quote:northampton_lad
Lots of negativity on here, did anyone expect any different? In all honesty, how many of our players would get into that Saracens team? I reckon 2.
Dickson has made some shockers which have impacted the game. But Saint’s performance is probably about what I would have expected.
Yeah, no idea why people are so unhappy with our capitulation? We should just be happy to make up the numbers.
Quote:ajackQuote:As he so often does when not given an armchair ride.Pint of Export
Mitchell having a shocker
The game is pretty much done, might as well stick James on see if he can do anything with a decent chunk of time left.
Quote:Saint Sharky
Heartless performance. All round embarrassment.
Are you referring to your posts?!
Sorry only joking but come on this is a great Saracens performance, best defence we've played against all season and the best team in premiership. Saints haven't been as accurate as against Newcastle but they're clearly trying and attack is starting to get better against an incredibly well organised defence.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:16:46:31 by Saintfanh.
Quote:Matthew
Also, do we have some invisible 16th player? We keep passing to him....
He was Gregor Townsend's invisible friend back in the day if I recall correctly.
Quote:Saint SharkyQuote:northampton_lad
Lots of negativity on here, did anyone expect any different? In all honesty, how many of our players would get into that Saracens team? I reckon 2.
Dickson has made some shockers which have impacted the game. But Saint’s performance is probably about what I would have expected.
Yeah, no idea why people are so unhappy with our capitulation? We should just be happy to make up the numbers.
I don’t think it’s a capitulation (yet!). Agree performance could and should be better from Saints & ref. But it is a very good & experienced Sarries side, we were always going to be up against it
As I mentioned on the ref thread, Dickson makes his mind up early or even before the game who is going to be dominant and who he is going to penalise and he rarely changes his mind. One of the best 12 refs in the world, that really doesn’t say a lot for the quality of the rest. Momentum is huge in a game, Maitland gets a yellow or even red he doesn’t score and Sarries are on the back foot rather than Saints. He was always going to do something controversial
Good team try, playing the saints way. Nice to see some spark.
Shame about the conversion.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:16:58:46 by Berkshire-Saint.
Shame about the conversion.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:16:58:46 by Berkshire-Saint.
Quote:Berkshire-Saint
It’s irrelevant to the game I appreciate that, but if the shot clock is up why is he allowed to take the kick
Not sure it is irrelevant if Saints get within 3 points.
Assistants wearing Black and Red today too?
HINT: white line is the edge of the pitch.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:17:03:47 by Stokey.
HINT: white line is the edge of the pitch.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:17:03:47 by Stokey.
Nice big screen replay of Farrell's foot in touch down the opposite end to where Sarries are attacking now. Nothing done by officials of course.
What on earth was that penalty KD? Haven’t seen rolling with the ball called for many, many years. I shouldn’t be surprised but somehow he still pulls it out of the bag.
And now a penalty try. Absolutely mental passage of play.
And now a penalty try. Absolutely mental passage of play.
dickson really is shocking tbf. Sarries are significantly better than us, but these officials should be reviewed. Hope his incompetence isn't rewarded with a WC call up.
THIS IS THE WORST RUN PROFESSIONAL SPORT ON THE PLANET
A clear lineout on halfway for a foot in touch is “not allowed to be reviewed” but we can run back a maul for offside
Close to checking out from this sport to be honest
A clear lineout on halfway for a foot in touch is “not allowed to be reviewed” but we can run back a maul for offside
Close to checking out from this sport to be honest
Quote:Matthew
Nice big screen replay of Farrell's foot in touch down the opposite end to where Sarries are attacking now. Nothing done by officials of course.
Followed by a penalty try. FFS
Hope we don't get Dickson at the World Cup.
Penalty Try is fair decision but wasn't the TMO requested by a Sarries player after Dickson was adamant that it was. No Try.
Can players request TMO?
Can players request TMO?
Well we don't deserve anything. But the amount of decisions that have gone against us. Even innocuous ones, like Farrell being almost in the stand being allowed to play the ball, right under tempests nose. Just so so poor, which they go on to score from. As I said previously, sarries are good enough not to need freebies.
Sarries the better team. More hunger, physicality, better attitude.
Saints skills and accuracy poor for the majority of the game. Same with attitude apart from a good 20min spell.
A side note of this game is how poor the officiating has been, and can’t say any of them deserve to go to the RWC.
I still think we need a change in defence coach if we are to improve next year.
A sorry way to end the season.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:17:15:30 by Berkshire-Saint.
Saints skills and accuracy poor for the majority of the game. Same with attitude apart from a good 20min spell.
A side note of this game is how poor the officiating has been, and can’t say any of them deserve to go to the RWC.
I still think we need a change in defence coach if we are to improve next year.
A sorry way to end the season.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:17:15:30 by Berkshire-Saint.
Genuine questuon; Is there a way for fans to complain about this referee? He should not be anywhere near this level.
Well, we were terrible in the first half. Not helped by poor officiating, but players like Waller gifting 7pts it was never going to be our day.
No wonder nobody likes Sarries, such a difficult team to warm to and full of really unsavoury players imo (needless shouting and smirks). Hope Tigers can win tomorrow so we avoid a dull bore fest final of Sanderson v McCall.
No wonder nobody likes Sarries, such a difficult team to warm to and full of really unsavoury players imo (needless shouting and smirks). Hope Tigers can win tomorrow so we avoid a dull bore fest final of Sanderson v McCall.
A fair reflection of where we are. We did well to make the top four and the play offs but we are still miles away from really competing against the best sides.
Saracens are a better team, but it would have been nice to gave a fair rub of the green in terms of the awful officiating.
It would be nice to see Mr Dickson on tv being interviewed and explaing his decioion not to card Maitland so that us lesser mortals could understand.
It would be nice to see Mr Dickson on tv being interviewed and explaing his decioion not to card Maitland so that us lesser mortals could understand.
We were 3rd best at the breakdown
Their forwards got the best of ours at every play
Earl was a consistent pain
We have no true 7 so really came up short
Lot of huff and puff but so little idea on how to break down Sarries defence
And that’s from a saints team with apparently the most attacking back line
So little intelligence from some players
Waller had a good few games
Got a contract renewal
Now back to his old penalty machine self
Hats off to Sarries
So well coached and organised
So much quicker of thought and action
Just determined to win
Saints need to severe the Boyd umbilical cord
Get a experienced defence coach
And have a wholesale review of coaching
Whatever is being coached today
Isn’t putting us in contention with the top teams
Blame the officials all you like
But if we had played 14 men we would still have lost
And probably by more
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:17:50:47 by Deesaint.
Their forwards got the best of ours at every play
Earl was a consistent pain
We have no true 7 so really came up short
Lot of huff and puff but so little idea on how to break down Sarries defence
And that’s from a saints team with apparently the most attacking back line
So little intelligence from some players
Waller had a good few games
Got a contract renewal
Now back to his old penalty machine self
Hats off to Sarries
So well coached and organised
So much quicker of thought and action
Just determined to win
Saints need to severe the Boyd umbilical cord
Get a experienced defence coach
And have a wholesale review of coaching
Whatever is being coached today
Isn’t putting us in contention with the top teams
Blame the officials all you like
But if we had played 14 men we would still have lost
And probably by more
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:13:17:50:47 by Deesaint.
Quote:henners0
How was that not a yellow for Itoje, knock on in the red zone....
Exactly. No doubt about it, Sarries the better side across all the metrics, but good god, Dickson should face some serious questions in his next assessment. Both he and the TMO conversed quite properly about the cover in determining whether or not it should be a penalty try, but unless I missed it they completely forgot to go through the escalation conversation that would have resulted in the appropriate sanction for it being a deliberate slap, preventing pass completion in the red zone.
In a way, this shocking oversight (when Sarries were away and gone and clearly going to win) is even worse than if the game was truly on a knife-edge: no nerves or adrenaline excuse for not going by the book. Same with the shot clock. He should have been calm, deliberate and methodical, and he wasn’t. Not helped by a pretty supine TMO, but again: no excuse.
Given the way in which the Maitland decision was handled, and the focus on sanctioning players for any dangerous outcome that they could, on the balance of probability, have reasonably avoided (a La Steward for Eng), he’s also a serious liability to any attempts to use the card system to force real change in terms of head contact.
Hey ho. Sarries were incredibly good, we weren’t - refereeing perfection would not have overcome that disparity. But one day, sadly, Dickson is going to get another crucial knockout game, one delicately and precariously poised, where his inexplicable and repeated incompetence is going to condemn one team unfairly to defeat. And unless the RFU do something, they are watching a car crash in slow motion that could really damage confidence in their assessment system.
Barnes is the preening panto villain we love to hate, whose pedantry is infuriating, but at his core he’s a good frontier lawman. Dickson is just…Police Academy 5. And as Homer Simpson argues, those Police Academy movies are no laughing matter.
Onwards.
Quote:GaipajamaQuote:henners0
How was that not a yellow for Itoje, knock on in the red zone....
Exactly. No doubt about it, Sarries the better side across all the metrics, but good god, Dickson should face some serious questions in his next assessment. Both he and the TMO conversed quite properly about the cover in determining whether or not it should be a penalty try, but unless I missed it they completely forgot to go through the escalation conversation that would have resulted in the appropriate sanction for it being a
deliberate slap, preventing pass completion in the red zone.
In a way, this shocking oversight (when Sarries were away and gone and clearly going to win) is even worse than if the game was truly on a knife-edge: no nerves or adrenaline excuse for not going by the book. Same with the shot clock. He should have been calm, deliberate and methodical, and he wasn’t. Not helped by a pretty supine TMO, but again: no excuse.
Given the way in which the Maitland decision was handled, and the focus on sanctioning players for any dangerous outcome that they could, on the balance of probability, have reasonably avoided (a La Steward for Eng), he’s also a serious liability to any attempts to use the card system to force real change in terms of head contact.
Hey ho. Sarries were incredibly good, we weren’t - refereeing perfection would not have overcome that disparity. But one day, sadly, Dickson is going to get another crucial knockout game, one delicately and precariously poised, where his inexplicable and repeated incompetence is going to condemn one team unfairly to defeat. And unless the RFU do something, they are watching a car crash in slow motion that could really damage confidence in their assessment system.
Barnes is the preening panto villain we love to hate, whose pedantry is infuriating, but at his core he’s a good frontier lawman. Dickson is just…Police Academy 5. And as Homer Simpson argues, those Police Academy movies are no laughing matter.
Onwards.
In case you missed it he did get a yellow card. No penalty try was awarded as the scrum half was covering you could clearly hear him and the TMO discuss this.
Person I think it was highly debatable that he would have stopped Ludlum from that distance with a side on tackle but merely having cover seems to be the criteria used across the board where a penalty try is concerned.
Quote:ajackQuote:GaipajamaQuote:henners0
How was that not a yellow for Itoje, knock on in the red zone....
Exactly. No doubt about it, Sarries the better side across all the metrics, but good god, Dickson should face some serious questions in his next assessment. Both he and the TMO conversed quite properly about the cover in determining whether or not it should be a penalty try, but unless I missed it they completely forgot to go through the escalation conversation that would have resulted in the appropriate sanction for it being a
deliberate slap, preventing pass completion in the red zone.
In a way, this shocking oversight (when Sarries were away and gone and clearly going to win) is even worse than if the game was truly on a knife-edge: no nerves or adrenaline excuse for not going by the book. Same with the shot clock. He should have been calm, deliberate and methodical, and he wasn’t. Not helped by a pretty supine TMO, but again: no excuse.
Given the way in which the Maitland decision was handled, and the focus on sanctioning players for any dangerous outcome that they could, on the balance of probability, have reasonably avoided (a La Steward for Eng), he’s also a serious liability to any attempts to use the card system to force real change in terms of head contact.
Hey ho. Sarries were incredibly good, we weren’t - refereeing perfection would not have overcome that disparity. But one day, sadly, Dickson is going to get another crucial knockout game, one delicately and precariously poised, where his inexplicable and repeated incompetence is going to condemn one team unfairly to defeat. And unless the RFU do something, they are watching a car crash in slow motion that could really damage confidence in their assessment system.
Barnes is the preening panto villain we love to hate, whose pedantry is infuriating, but at his core he’s a good frontier lawman. Dickson is just…Police Academy 5. And as Homer Simpson argues, those Police Academy movies are no laughing matter.
Onwards.
In case you missed it he did get a yellow card. No penalty try was awarded as the scrum half was covering you could clearly hear him and the TMO discuss this.
Person I think it was highly debatable that he would have stopped Ludlum from that distance with a side on tackle but merely having cover seems to be the criteria used across the board where a penalty try is concerned.
Maro wasn't carded, probably should have been though
Quote:Sarriebone
Apologies, must have missed it
Not a problem clearly others did as well.
Quote:NGSB
According to the Beeb, Itoje was indeed yellow carded.
Yes. Carded on the radio.
This debate proves rugby, it’s laws and official interpretations are a mess right now
Tough game for Saints. For me Maitlands contact in the air is a yellow. Who knows how that could have changed the game?
The other thing is 3 weeks off is surely far from ideal. I appreciate it's an anomaly due to Wuss and Wasps but it's certainly one you could have done without.
Finishing 4th is at the end of a competitive season is still great going and it feels like you're maybe "just" a defensive guru away from being competitive right at the top.
All the best for the off season and the start of the new one
The other thing is 3 weeks off is surely far from ideal. I appreciate it's an anomaly due to Wuss and Wasps but it's certainly one you could have done without.
Finishing 4th is at the end of a competitive season is still great going and it feels like you're maybe "just" a defensive guru away from being competitive right at the top.
All the best for the off season and the start of the new one
Quote:Olneybutchers
This debate proves rugby, it’s laws and official interpretations are a mess right now
Actually this bit of the debate is about people claiming the ref and TMO didn't do something that they actually did. So false claims actually make things seem worse than they are.
IMO there was one awful decision early on and a few poor ones during the game but the way everything is now criticised and reviewed is not good for the game.
The foot in touch being an example yes it should have been picked up but it was a split second and just part of general play. If we really want every second of play reviewed over and over in slow motion then the game will last for hours.
By all means try and improve player safety and review critical parts of the game but to try and achieve perfection seems a stupid goal for me.
Quote:ajackQuote:Olneybutchers
This debate proves rugby, it’s laws and official interpretations are a mess right now
Actually this bit of the debate is about people claiming the ref and TMO didn't do something that they actually did. So false claims actually make things seem worse than they are.
IMO there was one awful decision early on and a few poor ones during the game but the way everything is now criticised and reviewed is not good for the game.
The foot in touch being an example yes it should have been picked up but it was a split second and just part of general play. If we really want every second of play reviewed over and over in slow motion then the game will last for hours.
By all means try and improve player safety and review critical parts of the game but to try and achieve perfection seems a stupid goal for me.
Totally agree
Back from the game and there was a lot to admire about Sarries performance.
We were beaten by a better team but IMHO not better individuals - at least on paper. Our execution was poor under relentless Sarries defensive pressure. It was chalk and cheese in defence. The ease with which they made ground or broke our line was lamentable.
We were schooled in what a proper title-winning defence looks like. Sure we can bemoan the ref but our downfall was far more the same issue that has dogged our progress for years.
Will we learn and get a new defence coach or persist in the belief our attack can somehow make up for the worst and most woeful defence in the league?
We were beaten by a better team but IMHO not better individuals - at least on paper. Our execution was poor under relentless Sarries defensive pressure. It was chalk and cheese in defence. The ease with which they made ground or broke our line was lamentable.
We were schooled in what a proper title-winning defence looks like. Sure we can bemoan the ref but our downfall was far more the same issue that has dogged our progress for years.
Will we learn and get a new defence coach or persist in the belief our attack can somehow make up for the worst and most woeful defence in the league?
Quote:Saint SharkyQuote:SaintfanhQuote:shiversaintQuote:herbie85
Well it could have been a different game had Dickson made a braver decision early doors. But we're getting physically dominated here.
You know as well as I do that it wouldn’t make a jot of difference.
Haven’t seen Sarries coast like this in a long time.
Disagree - sarries don't get two of their tries if Matiland is off the field and the third if Waller doesn't switch off. And then it's pretty difficult to compete when you get pingged consistently and the other team doesn't at all. Sarries still clearly dominant and saints need to change that but they haven't been given a chance.
Bro, Sarries would win with a neutral ref and 14 men. There's a genuine gulf in quality that is bigger than any match officials input.
Unfortunately true.
Quote:JohnIQuote:Olneybutchers
Arguably I would probably not sign an armed forces player if they will miss the biggest game of the season. Would never ever happen in any other sport.
Your choice but with that sort of thinking the likes of Rory Underwood, Semesa Rokoduguni and many others would never have played international rugby.
They miss only one game in a season and the clubs get a lot more with having them since they are still servicemen and therefore do not command the high wages being paid to some others.
Or Tim Rodber!
PG
Quote:Saint Maul
Will we learn and get a new defence coach or persist in the belief our attack can somehow make up for the worst and most woeful defence in the league?
Does a new defence coach resolve the problem? Is Vass allowed free rein and sufficient time with players to implement his defence strategies. If the answer to these questions is yes then you are right. If no to either a new man in the job isn’t going to make any difference. Dowson & Vesty have overseeing responsibility to ensure defence is given the right focus in the group, I’m not convinced it’s the no.1 priority or anywhere near the top of the list and then we get to the players, do they individually and as a group have the ability and wherewithal to defend or have we formulated a squad that are top of the pops in attack but not so good in defence. That again is down to Dowson & Vesty and player recruitment. A difficult thing to significantly change overnight with the 2-3 year contract cycles.
The challenge is to remain top of all the attacking stats but getting somewhere near the middle in defence at least
Some thoughts.
1. I certainly don’t think the ref decided the outcome - Sarries were the better team - but with a better ref it could’ve been much more of a contest. The obviously bad decisions (Maitland, Farrell foot in touch) came at / before key moments. As to whether the contact area was reffed fairly it was harder to say, but from where I was sitting Sarries seemed to go off their feet quite a lot and their D line was definitely often offside (esp Itoje, their frontline tackler), which I think was why we were struggling to go wide and got battered / turned over cutting back in. Still, it worked so well done Sarries.
2. We badly need an out and out seven who can get to the breakdown faster (defend and attack). I thought Ben Earl was outstanding and a key difference between the teams (how is he not an England regular). We are playing with two sixes. I suspect having retained Courts we probably don’t have the budget though. Hinkley showed promise but was evidently a head case with off field issues.
3. I thought Fin Smith found it a bit tough, Farrell certainly showed him the level but Smith will learn and get better from playing in games of this intensity and pressure.
4. I said to my son at half time that we would need to score more than 40 to win (because Sarries would end up with around that) and so it proved. So unless we can improve our defence we’re not getting past this stage. I can see that coaching might help (our line speed seems too slow). But for me, the simple fact is that our guys tend to lose the collision (defence and attack). That includes our best players / internationals. Same for defensive scrums by the way. One on one collisions is not really a coaching thing - the simple fact is that our guys are not the biggest / most physical individually or as a collective. I think they have the heart / desire but for me reaching the next level is more a recruitment thing, than a coaching thing.
1. I certainly don’t think the ref decided the outcome - Sarries were the better team - but with a better ref it could’ve been much more of a contest. The obviously bad decisions (Maitland, Farrell foot in touch) came at / before key moments. As to whether the contact area was reffed fairly it was harder to say, but from where I was sitting Sarries seemed to go off their feet quite a lot and their D line was definitely often offside (esp Itoje, their frontline tackler), which I think was why we were struggling to go wide and got battered / turned over cutting back in. Still, it worked so well done Sarries.
2. We badly need an out and out seven who can get to the breakdown faster (defend and attack). I thought Ben Earl was outstanding and a key difference between the teams (how is he not an England regular). We are playing with two sixes. I suspect having retained Courts we probably don’t have the budget though. Hinkley showed promise but was evidently a head case with off field issues.
3. I thought Fin Smith found it a bit tough, Farrell certainly showed him the level but Smith will learn and get better from playing in games of this intensity and pressure.
4. I said to my son at half time that we would need to score more than 40 to win (because Sarries would end up with around that) and so it proved. So unless we can improve our defence we’re not getting past this stage. I can see that coaching might help (our line speed seems too slow). But for me, the simple fact is that our guys tend to lose the collision (defence and attack). That includes our best players / internationals. Same for defensive scrums by the way. One on one collisions is not really a coaching thing - the simple fact is that our guys are not the biggest / most physical individually or as a collective. I think they have the heart / desire but for me reaching the next level is more a recruitment thing, than a coaching thing.
Quote:Deesaint
We were 3rd best at the breakdown
Their forwards got the best of ours at every play
Earl was a consistent pain
We have no true 7 so really came up short
Lot of huff and puff but so little idea on how to break down Sarries defence
And that’s from a saints team with apparently the most attacking back line
So little intelligence from some players
Waller had a good few games
Got a contract renewal
Now back to his old penalty machine self
Hats off to Sarries
So well coached and organised
So much quicker of thought and action
Just determined to win
Saints need to severe the Boyd umbilical cord
Get a experienced defence coach
And have a wholesale review of coaching
Whatever is being coached today
Isn’t putting us in contention with the top teams
Blame the officials all you like
But if we had played 14 men we would still have lost
And probably by more
All true. And why all first half was our game plan to take the ball into contact when were totally outmuscled?? Freeman and Ramm etc barely saw the ball in the first half. Despite his idiotic error, it was a mistake to take off Waller at half time as his brother couldn't stand up and we lost every scrum after that.
And one more
5. We put very little pressure on sarries in the ruck so they had free rein to go through the phases. They turned us over loads and slowed our ball down a lot. I thought that was a key factor in the outcome. See my point 2 above re out and out number 7 who can jackal!
5. We put very little pressure on sarries in the ruck so they had free rein to go through the phases. They turned us over loads and slowed our ball down a lot. I thought that was a key factor in the outcome. See my point 2 above re out and out number 7 who can jackal!
Quote:ajack
In case you missed it he did get a yellow card. No penalty try was awarded as the scrum half was covering you could clearly hear him and the TMO discuss this.
Person I think it was highly debatable that he would have stopped Ludlum from that distance with a side on tackle but merely having cover seems to be the criteria used across the board where a penalty try is concerned.
Ah, thanks - I did indeed miss it. Apologies to Dickson for that, then. I too doubt that the cover would have stopped him, but I have no real complaints about that bit - as you say, just the presence of a player alters the probability just enough in the rules.
Quote:Sadly, you hit most of it.Deesaint
We were 3rd best at the breakdown
Their forwards got the best of ours at every play
Earl was a consistent pain
We have no true 7 so really came up short
Lot of huff and puff but so little idea on how to break down Sarries defence
And that’s from a saints team with apparently the most attacking back line
So little intelligence from some players
Waller had a good few games
Got a contract renewal
Now back to his old penalty machine self
Hats off to Sarries
So well coached and organised
So much quicker of thought and action
Just determined to win
Saints need to severe the Boyd umbilical cord
Get a experienced defence coach
And have a wholesale review of coaching
Whatever is being coached today
Isn’t putting us in contention with the top teams
Blame the officials all you like
But if we had played 14 men we would still have lost
And probably by more
I disagree abut the 7, however. Watch Saracens, not just the 7 hitting the breakdown with skill and aggression - everyone is good going into the breakdown. Usually Itoje is their best jackler. We urgently and critically need to raise this bar across the board. A little more pressure applied will inevitably slow down opposition ball and allow our rather sleepy defense to regain shape. And this goes directly to your points about how well coached and organised Saracens are, certainly in comparison.
We can put the referee's decisions aside because no matter how poor, and he was shockingly poor, Saints never showed up, so no matter.
Ultimately, we got exactly what we have gotten from Saints since the Boyd era started. To have expected anything more would - yes, a bit in hindsight - would have not taken into account the past 4-5 seasons. Saints played exactly as history told us they would. And this takes me to Dowson. I always liked him as a player - so many times the players who over-achieve are amongst the ones who learn the game more deeply and figure out how to really improve. This is one of the reason I thought he could be a good coach. Unfortunately it's now clear we need a clean break from the Boyd era and a complete change in direction.
I didn't think we were that bad yesterday - at least we turned up, unlike at Bristol and LI. With a competent referee the scoreline might have been closer but ultimately we played a team that were far superior in almost all aspects of the game. I suspect the outcome would have been similar had we played Sale or Tigers - or for that matter Quins, LI or Exeter. We're simply not good enough and won't be whilst we play the style of rugby we do. Hopefully the club will now end 'Boydism' and Dowson/Vesty will be able to create a more successful blueprint for winning rugby. They would do well to study the way Saracens play - in little over a season they have transformed themselves into a wonderfully entertaining team that do all of the basics well and play expansive rugby whenever they're given the chance.
The scary thing is Farrell in the interview after the game spoke about going from a very basic gameplan and slowly expanding everything. They absolutely bombed at least three try scoring opportunities yesterday, if they ever get their attack close to their defensively level they will be putting 60-70 points past teams like us.
We are still exactly where we were after the first year under Boyd when we got to the play offs and were thumped by Exeter by a similar score.
I really have no idea how much influence Boyd still has and it must be difficult for Dowson to turn around to his bosses and say you know that bloke who you pay loads of money to that we don't really have well I am going to ignore everything he says.
Unless we have a major shift in attitude at the top we will be in exactly the same situation or worse in the years to come.
We are still exactly where we were after the first year under Boyd when we got to the play offs and were thumped by Exeter by a similar score.
I really have no idea how much influence Boyd still has and it must be difficult for Dowson to turn around to his bosses and say you know that bloke who you pay loads of money to that we don't really have well I am going to ignore everything he says.
Unless we have a major shift in attitude at the top we will be in exactly the same situation or worse in the years to come.
Quote:ajack
The scary thing is Farrell in the interview after the game spoke about going from a very basic gameplan and slowly expanding everything. They absolutely bombed at least three try scoring opportunities yesterday, if they ever get their attack close to their defensively level they will be putting 60-70 points past teams like us.
We are still exactly where we were after the first year under Boyd when we got to the play offs and were thumped by Exeter by a similar score.
I really have no idea how much influence Boyd still has and it must be difficult for Dowson to turn around to his bosses and say you know that bloke who you pay loads of money to that we don't really have well I am going to ignore everything he says.
Unless we have a major shift in attitude at the top we will be in exactly the same situation or worse in the years to come.
I know - I was trying to be optimistic! :-)
Quote:GaipajamaQuote:ajack
In case you missed it he did get a yellow card. No penalty try was awarded as the scrum half was covering you could clearly hear him and the TMO discuss this.
Person I think it was highly debatable that he would have stopped Ludlum from that distance with a side on tackle but merely having cover seems to be the criteria used across the board where a penalty try is concerned.
Ah, thanks - I did indeed miss it. Apologies to Dickson for that, then. I too doubt that the cover would have stopped him, but I have no real complaints about that bit - as you say, just the presence of a player alters the probability just enough in the rules.
I'm fairly sure - but have intention of going back to re-watch the match! - that BT neglected to put the yellow card symbol/countdown graphic up. Presumably the gallery director/producer had checked by that point... FWIW, I think some refs may have concluded it was highly unlikely Ludlam would've been stopped and awarded the PT (in the same way some blocks/crossing incidents are reviewed but aren't considered penalties if there's no material impact).
Watched Leinster v Munster after. Different class of fame altogether.
Quote:JCDL86Quote:GaipajamaQuote:ajack
In case you missed it he did get a yellow card. No penalty try was awarded as the scrum half was covering you could clearly hear him and the TMO discuss this.
Person I think it was highly debatable that he would have stopped Ludlum from that distance with a side on tackle but merely having cover seems to be the criteria used across the board where a penalty try is concerned.
Ah, thanks - I did indeed miss it. Apologies to Dickson for that, then. I too doubt that the cover would have stopped him, but I have no real complaints about that bit - as you say, just the presence of a player alters the probability just enough in the rules.
I'm fairly sure - but have intention of going back to re-watch the match! - that BT neglected to put the yellow card symbol/countdown graphic up. Presumably the gallery director/producer had checked by that point... FWIW, I think some refs may have concluded it was highly unlikely Ludlam would've been stopped and awarded the PT (in the same way some blocks/crossing incidents are reviewed but aren't considered penalties if there's no material impact).
Pretty sure you are correct about not putting the yellow card symbol on the TV but he definitely got a yellow card.
Personally I cannot ever remember any ref giving a penalty try for a deliberate knock on when there was cover behind, but that doesn't mean it has never happened but having any cover seems to pretty much be the deciding factor between awarding a penalty try or not, regardless of how likely it is prevent a try being scored.
Probably not a bad system as if there is cover or not is less of a judgement call rather than would the cover have prevented a try? Probably leads to greater consistency.
Agree with much of the above. Sad to see the usual, “I’m frustrated”, we didn’t do this and we didn’t do that interviews. I hear that after practically every away game this season. I realise the coaches are not going to wash their dirty linen in public.
Let’s face it what we see time and time again, is exactly what and where we are. I suspect that if that game was played another 10 times, we would lose another 10 times.
We need to realise that the method we have adopted doesn’t work for us in terms of competing at the highest level and winning trophies. Not now not ever.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:14:13:30:00 by St. Andy.
Let’s face it what we see time and time again, is exactly what and where we are. I suspect that if that game was played another 10 times, we would lose another 10 times.
We need to realise that the method we have adopted doesn’t work for us in terms of competing at the highest level and winning trophies. Not now not ever.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:05:14:13:30:00 by St. Andy.
The second half when we were camped in the Sarracens 22 , repeatedly stopped on the gainline and unable to penetrate their defence reminded me of the Munster and La Rochelle matches. I'd like to think that someone analyses what creates scoring opportunities and why territory and possession don't get converted into points.
Quote:Santiago
The second half when we were camped in the Sarracens 22 , repeatedly stopped on the gainline and unable to penetrate their defence reminded me of the Munster and La Rochelle matches. I'd like to think that someone analyses what creates scoring opportunities and why territory and possession don't get converted into points.
Let’s not over complicate it. You can analyse these things as much as you like and I’m sure they do and then tell us they are disappointed that we didn’t do it. But ultimately I come to the conclusion that the reason is because we are just not good enough to do it.
My main concern is the board room, all seems very cozy, do we have our priorities and incentives and pay bonuses right? Doesn’t look like it to me.
Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to when the Boyd consultancy comes to an end. Whilst CB underestimated the Premiership he did bring some positive aspects to the way Saints play but his time should now be over. Dowson and Vesty are still learning their trade as coaches but having input from a former DOR who spends most of his time on the other side of the world cannot be conducive to their confidence.
Quote:NGSB
Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to when the Boyd consultancy comes to an end. Whilst CB underestimated the Premiership he did bring some positive aspects to the way Saints play but his time should now be over. Dowson and Vesty are still learning their trade as coaches but having input from a former DOR who spends most of his time on the other side of the world cannot be conducive to their confidence.
Agreed. Let Dowson get on with it without someone looking over his shoulder.
Quote:aecgda
Agreed. Let Dowson get on with it without someone looking over his shoulder.
Maybe Dowson doesn't need a mentor, but the most successful (? and longest serving) DOR in the premiership had his mentor looking over his shoulder on Saturday.
Quote:SantiagoQuote:aecgda
Agreed. Let Dowson get on with it without someone looking over his shoulder.
Maybe Dowson doesn't need a mentor, but the most successful (? and longest serving) DOR in the premiership had his mentor looking over his shoulder on Saturday.
Good mentors tend to have a track record. BV certainly does. Boyd, less so.
Quote:After I thought for a few minutes, I think this should be the easiest conversation to have. The management team at Saints might not be able assemble a competitive team, but I am sure they know poor Rugby when they see it. Everyone sees this stuff. If they can't recognise what everyone else sees, then it's time for a complete new management team.ajack
The scary thing is Farrell in the interview after the game spoke about going from a very basic gameplan and slowly expanding everything. They absolutely bombed at least three try scoring opportunities yesterday, if they ever get their attack close to their defensively level they will be putting 60-70 points past teams like us.
We are still exactly where we were after the first year under Boyd when we got to the play offs and were thumped by Exeter by a similar score.
I really have no idea how much influence Boyd still has and it must be difficult for Dowson to turn around to his bosses and say you know that bloke who you pay loads of money to that we don't really have well I am going to ignore everything he says.
Unless we have a major shift in attitude at the top we will be in exactly the same situation or worse in the years to come.
Saints were fortunate to make the playoffs last season and dead nuts lucky to make it this year. Of course, I want Saints in the playoffs every year, but not just to receive another ritual drubbing. I really hope - finally - this no longer papers over the cracks.
I thought Boyd have left? Is he still coaching for Saints but remotely or something.
I’m just glad the season is over for another year. I’ve enjoyed seeing Saints winning all but one of their home league games and often despaired at some of their results away from the Gardens. I cannot take Europe very seriously due to the current loaded format in favour of the top sides. The Premiership Cup, now predominantly midweek, simply replaces the much missed A league. Our CEO has spelt out the future insomuch that we cannot compete with the sides at the very top, we can simply hope to be the best of the rest; that may be a pragmatic approach based upon the Clubs financial position but it hardly gets the juices flowing. All this I can live with a little longer and have renewed once again for the umpteenth time. Like others, however, I am really beginning to fall out of love with the game at the highest level when thinking about management provided by the PRL and RFU allied to some of the officiating and here I am not just talking about the semi-final yesterday. The game remains in crisis.
Quote:OldMarovian
I thought Boyd have left? Is he still coaching for Saints but remotely or something.
Boyd left with some sort of consultancy role, but I don't know the duration.
More pertinently what is Brendan Venter's role now with Sarries? It's a long time since he left the UK but still seems to pop up from time to time, as he did on Saturday.
he comes over 3-4 weeks near the end of the season to lend an ear or advice.. been doing it now for a number of years
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
I think it’s insulting to the players and coaches to say that we’ve only made the playoffs in consecutive years by blind luck. Nonsense. Most of the league can only aspire to be at this level.
The challenge we have not met/conquered of late is kicking on to the summit that is silverware.
The challenge we have not met/conquered of late is kicking on to the summit that is silverware.
Chris Boyd isn't the only mentor available for Dowse. He often speaks with Stuart Lancaster.
Quote:higgy365
I think it’s insulting to the players and coaches to say that we’ve only made the playoffs in consecutive years by blind luck. Nonsense. Most of the league can only aspire to be at this level.
The challenge we have not met/conquered of late is kicking on to the summit that is silverware.
+1
And it’s b….y frustrating isn’t it.
Thanks Santiago. Is that open-ended or just for a transition?
Re Venter I don't know, as said above he's normally about at the tail end of the season and quite often in Sarries gear which kind of implies maybe a roll of some sort unless he's the sort of John Terry twonk who kits up to enjoy the plaudits having missed out on the work!!
Re Venter I don't know, as said above he's normally about at the tail end of the season and quite often in Sarries gear which kind of implies maybe a roll of some sort unless he's the sort of John Terry twonk who kits up to enjoy the plaudits having missed out on the work!!
Quote:OldMarovian
Thanks Santiago. Is that open-ended or just for a transition?
I don't think we're aware if it's open-ended or a fixed term. I guess plenty of people are frustrated because they want a clean break from the Boyd era and likely see it as a waste of money (not that it's clear how much he's costing). Without knowing the specifics and nature of the mentoring, who's to say that there isn't a benefit to it?
I wouldn’t think Boyd is doing it for nothing
But at the same time sure there will be a retainer in place
Nothing like his full salary
Plus expenses
Like flying back from NZ
Which he did recently
However probably the same cost to the club as Boyd full time against PD full time and CB as a consultant
Does PD need a consultant
If so that raises a lot of questions
But at the same time sure there will be a retainer in place
Nothing like his full salary
Plus expenses
Like flying back from NZ
Which he did recently
However probably the same cost to the club as Boyd full time against PD full time and CB as a consultant
Does PD need a consultant
If so that raises a lot of questions
Senior leaders will often have a coach/mentor/consultant providing them with support. For those in their first role at that level I'd say it's unusual not to have that sort of support. My issue is not the existence of the support it is who is providing it.
Quote:Statesman
Senior leaders will often have a coach/mentor/consultant providing them with support. For those in their first role at that level I'd say it's unusual not to have that sort of support. My issue is not the existence of the support it is who is providing it.
Agreed
The issue with CB being mentor is the cross wires for the players on who is in charge
Plus wouldn’t it be better to have a mentor who understands what is required to win silverware in the premiership
Where’s Jim 😳
I’m a little late to the party to post but it really irritates me how Phil Dowson has absolutely no idea how to pick a team based on the opposition.
Alex Mitchell is a pretty terrible 9 against a dominant team where we have Braley who is absolutely made for Saturdays game yet Mitch plays regardless of opposition, how is this going to help him develop when he has no competition. When the game did open up towards the end after he had a stinker of 50 minutes Dowson then takes him off when he’s at his best in that desperate type of match, I couldn’t believe it.
Courtney comes back into the side and completely messes up our back row. ASY has been terrific whenever he’s asked to play and offers the best defence and breakdown threat possible for us currently yet he gets pointless minutes at the end.
The lack of variety in our attack was awful saturday, we didn’t have one pick and go with the forwards off the base. No wonder Saracens found our predictable attack easy to defend.
Final gripe is playing Fin Smith every game. Our best performance of the season was playing Furbank at 10 and getting the ball into the hands of Hutch who unlike smith has the magic to make things happen in our back line. While Smith is a good prospect he is not our best option and Ramm is our best full back.
If Dowson is going to take us anywhere he needs to grow a pair and be willing to upset the big name players, he seems to play them regardless of performance and it’s making me increasingly annoyed.
One final point is Paul Hill, arguably been our best player this year or atleast in the top 3 yet Davison walks into the team and has given nothing but sub par performances. I hope Hill leaves us because that lack of respect is really disappointing to see.
Alex Mitchell is a pretty terrible 9 against a dominant team where we have Braley who is absolutely made for Saturdays game yet Mitch plays regardless of opposition, how is this going to help him develop when he has no competition. When the game did open up towards the end after he had a stinker of 50 minutes Dowson then takes him off when he’s at his best in that desperate type of match, I couldn’t believe it.
Courtney comes back into the side and completely messes up our back row. ASY has been terrific whenever he’s asked to play and offers the best defence and breakdown threat possible for us currently yet he gets pointless minutes at the end.
The lack of variety in our attack was awful saturday, we didn’t have one pick and go with the forwards off the base. No wonder Saracens found our predictable attack easy to defend.
Final gripe is playing Fin Smith every game. Our best performance of the season was playing Furbank at 10 and getting the ball into the hands of Hutch who unlike smith has the magic to make things happen in our back line. While Smith is a good prospect he is not our best option and Ramm is our best full back.
If Dowson is going to take us anywhere he needs to grow a pair and be willing to upset the big name players, he seems to play them regardless of performance and it’s making me increasingly annoyed.
One final point is Paul Hill, arguably been our best player this year or atleast in the top 3 yet Davison walks into the team and has given nothing but sub par performances. I hope Hill leaves us because that lack of respect is really disappointing to see.
SF22 - some interesting thoughts, some of which I would agree with, some maybe not.
Courtney is our one world class player and it’s inevitable that he would go back into the side. However the form of Ribbans and Moon was such that he could only really come in as flanker where he usually plays for England. Next season should see him back on the number four shirt where he belongs.
I think that Mitchell had to start because in my view Braley has been disappointing whilst James looks best when coming off the bench. I see where you are coming from with regard to Mitch and big matches; it’s a problem we have seen before with Dan Biggar who I always thought failed to deliver when faced with a top quality opposite number. Whether it’s a question of trying too hard I’m not sure but hopefully a RWC campaign will see him come back a better player.
Fin Smith is a young player who has had a very good first season with Saints but is far from a complete player which is quite understandable at his age. Furbank is a capable stand by as is Grayson but I think Fin is the long term future at outside half - at the weekend he came up against an England Captain in very good form. I would agree that Ramm looks good with the fifteen shirt and he offers an option but with Collins now gone, it is more likely that he will continue on the wing.
Paul Hill has always been a bit of a conundrum, sometimes very good, sometimes vulnerable, certainly inconsistent. Davison for me did not look fit when he arrived so hopefully a really tough pre-season will get him in shape.
It’s a long wait until the Premiership starts again so plenty of time to work on some of these issues whilst some players will be in France on International duty.
Courtney is our one world class player and it’s inevitable that he would go back into the side. However the form of Ribbans and Moon was such that he could only really come in as flanker where he usually plays for England. Next season should see him back on the number four shirt where he belongs.
I think that Mitchell had to start because in my view Braley has been disappointing whilst James looks best when coming off the bench. I see where you are coming from with regard to Mitch and big matches; it’s a problem we have seen before with Dan Biggar who I always thought failed to deliver when faced with a top quality opposite number. Whether it’s a question of trying too hard I’m not sure but hopefully a RWC campaign will see him come back a better player.
Fin Smith is a young player who has had a very good first season with Saints but is far from a complete player which is quite understandable at his age. Furbank is a capable stand by as is Grayson but I think Fin is the long term future at outside half - at the weekend he came up against an England Captain in very good form. I would agree that Ramm looks good with the fifteen shirt and he offers an option but with Collins now gone, it is more likely that he will continue on the wing.
Paul Hill has always been a bit of a conundrum, sometimes very good, sometimes vulnerable, certainly inconsistent. Davison for me did not look fit when he arrived so hopefully a really tough pre-season will get him in shape.
It’s a long wait until the Premiership starts again so plenty of time to work on some of these issues whilst some players will be in France on International duty.
Back to Courtney for a moment as that comment got me thinking about the last time he started at lock for Saints, January 2020.
As for in the number 4 shirt, that was back in 2017!
As for in the number 4 shirt, that was back in 2017!
Courtney will be playing flanker next season not second row.
He’s lost bulk to be more mobile for the needs of the back row so he would be too light for the second row without bulking up first with a big push in the off season (he struggles to put bulk on).
Given he will be preparing for the World Cup as a flanker he won’t be bulking up before coming back to Saints in the shape of a flanker after the World Cup. He’s never been able to bulk up mid-season. In fact, he struggles to keep weight on during the season.
I doubt Saints are thinking of moving him to the 2nd row but even if they were interested, it realistically won’t be next season.
He’s lost bulk to be more mobile for the needs of the back row so he would be too light for the second row without bulking up first with a big push in the off season (he struggles to put bulk on).
Given he will be preparing for the World Cup as a flanker he won’t be bulking up before coming back to Saints in the shape of a flanker after the World Cup. He’s never been able to bulk up mid-season. In fact, he struggles to keep weight on during the season.
I doubt Saints are thinking of moving him to the 2nd row but even if they were interested, it realistically won’t be next season.
Quote:Saint Maul
He’s never been able to bulk up mid-season. In fact, he struggles to keep weight on during the season.
I remember an interview with BT Sport? where he was with his kids I think at some burger and ribs place in Northampton absolutely stuffing his chops and he mentioned he finds it impossible to keep weight on during the season not matter what he eats .... closest I've every got to disliking that brilliant rugby player
I don't think its as fun as it sounds, while he can go nuts when eating out half the time he's forcing down shakes or bland chicken/fish and rice meals to get the calories in! At least that's what I have to tell myself....
Courtney is a flanker and has been for years, that's his best position and he's truly world class there. I said elsewhere I think the lack of competition at the breakdown was part tactical and part that only one side had access to the McCaw cloaks. Every time we tried a problem was found.
Courtney is a flanker and has been for years, that's his best position and he's truly world class there. I said elsewhere I think the lack of competition at the breakdown was part tactical and part that only one side had access to the McCaw cloaks. Every time we tried a problem was found.
Quote:LeicesterSaint
I don't think its as fun as it sounds, while he can go nuts when eating out half the time he's forcing down shakes or bland chicken/fish and rice meals to get the calories in! At least that's what I have to tell myself....
yeah I was joking, kinda
I remember watching a program with Wilkinson where he was eating like 10 chicken breasts at one sitting with broccoli. That did not seem like fun.
I recall that Chris Budgen had a reputation for keeping KFC owners well heeled.
Quote:OldMarovian
The Vunipolae used to do a similar thing for Nandos I believe.
Love it
Quote:You referring to a certain successful former Saints coach who is now Performance Director Scottish Rugby? The Scotland that seems to be improving each year? The one that beat England in the 6 Nations?DeesaintQuote:Statesman
Senior leaders will often have a coach/mentor/consultant providing them with support. For those in their first role at that level I'd say it's unusual not to have that sort of support. My issue is not the existence of the support it is who is providing it.
Agreed
The issue with CB being mentor is the cross wires for the players on who is in charge
Plus wouldn’t it be better to have a mentor who understands what is required to win silverware in the premiership
Where’s Jim 😳
To me, we lost that at the breakdown, now, you can argue about the (ill)legality of Sarries at the breakdown, and how they seemed to get the rub of the green there, but, that has been how refs have reffed for ever, the dominant looking team get the rub of the green.
We did not look after the breakdown well.
that meant slow ball, makes Mitch look average, slow ball to Fin, makes him look average, gives time for Sarries already well organised and drilled defence to get lined up properly, makes it easy to stop the ball carriers behind the line, makes getting to the breakdown harder -> round and round.....
As to the non-red/yellow, given the usual way things like this are reffed, seemed odd, but tbh I have always felt that its reffed harshly your meant to try to compete for the ball, and it was clumsy rather than anything else.
And if you need the oppo to go a man down for most of the game to beat them, then they are the better team, and deserve to beat you.
IF we can't beat a 15 man Sarries, we don't deserve to win the prem. and we can't.
Im happy not to get on Dowsons back at the moment, 1st year on the job, and squads are a 3-5 year turn over.
Trying to sustainably balance the books, bring through talent, retain talent with a reduced cap, a reduced budget full stop, and the headwinds we have had, to me it looks like we are doing a reasonably good job.
We have seen some games with really good defensive intent, but not enough of them, if we swing the attack/defence balance back towards defence then we will be less effective in attack, is the balance right...
Well, the top 4 teams this year, 3 of 4 are defence focused, so read into that what you will.
But as above, a bit more breakdown work, quicker and more effective to the ruck, and I think we lift our performances significantly.
We did not look after the breakdown well.
that meant slow ball, makes Mitch look average, slow ball to Fin, makes him look average, gives time for Sarries already well organised and drilled defence to get lined up properly, makes it easy to stop the ball carriers behind the line, makes getting to the breakdown harder -> round and round.....
As to the non-red/yellow, given the usual way things like this are reffed, seemed odd, but tbh I have always felt that its reffed harshly your meant to try to compete for the ball, and it was clumsy rather than anything else.
And if you need the oppo to go a man down for most of the game to beat them, then they are the better team, and deserve to beat you.
IF we can't beat a 15 man Sarries, we don't deserve to win the prem. and we can't.
Im happy not to get on Dowsons back at the moment, 1st year on the job, and squads are a 3-5 year turn over.
Trying to sustainably balance the books, bring through talent, retain talent with a reduced cap, a reduced budget full stop, and the headwinds we have had, to me it looks like we are doing a reasonably good job.
We have seen some games with really good defensive intent, but not enough of them, if we swing the attack/defence balance back towards defence then we will be less effective in attack, is the balance right...
Well, the top 4 teams this year, 3 of 4 are defence focused, so read into that what you will.
But as above, a bit more breakdown work, quicker and more effective to the ruck, and I think we lift our performances significantly.
Good afternoon,
congrats for your season, no long to see great Saints again in my opinion.
Just a question about next season, hard to understand.
Who is relegated from Premiership, and who is promoted ?
Thank you.
ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter
congrats for your season, no long to see great Saints again in my opinion.
Just a question about next season, hard to understand.
Who is relegated from Premiership, and who is promoted ?
Thank you.
ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter
There is no relegation or promotion this season. I think that Jersey won the Championship but they would not have been promoted because their ground is too small
All right.
So a Premiership with only 11 clubs next year ?
ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter
So a Premiership with only 11 clubs next year ?
ASM Clermont Auvergne supporter
Le Marseillais
May even be ten clubs yet as London Irish have a deadline of May 30th to meet certain criteria and confirm their intentions.
May even be ten clubs yet as London Irish have a deadline of May 30th to meet certain criteria and confirm their intentions.
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