Northampton Saints
Saints v Bristol Match Thread 03/03/23 - Teams Up
By Saint Ted
March 2 2023
This is the Bristol Bears v Northampton Saints match thread
Who: Bristol Bears v Northampton Saints
Where: Ashton Gate Stadium
When: Friday 3rd March 2023; 19:45
How do I watch: BT Sport
Tickets: Direct from Bristol
Saints take: Saints O'ffy
Officials:
Referee: Ian Tempest
Assistant referees: Adam Leal and Phil Watters
No.4: Harry Walbaum
TMO: David Rose
| Northampton Saints | Bristol Bears | |
| George Hendy | 15 | Charles Piutau |
| Courtnall Skosan | 14 | Siva Naulago |
| Fraser Dingwall (c) | 13 | Semi Radradra |
| Rory Hutchinson | 12 | James Williams |
| Tom Collins | 11 | Gabriel Ibitoye |
| Fin Smith | 10 | AJ MacGinty |
| Callum Braley | 9 | Harry Randall (c) |
| Ethan Waller | 1 | Yann Thomas |
| Sam Matavesi | 2 | Harry Thacker |
| Alfie Petch | 3 | Max Lahiff |
| Lukhan Salakaia-Loto | 4 | Chris Vui |
| Alex Moon | 5 | Joe Batley |
| Alex Coles | 6 | Sam Jeffries |
| Angus Scott-Young | 7 | Fitz Harding |
| Sam Graham | 8 | Magnus Bradbury |
| Replacements: | ||
| Tom Cruse | 16 | Bryan Byrne |
| Alex Waller | 17 | Jake Woolmore |
| Paul Hill | 18 | George Kloska |
| Karl Wilkins | 19 | Steven Luatua |
| Aaron Hinkley | 20 | Jake Heenan |
| Jake Garside | 21 | Andy Uren |
| James Grayson | 22 | Sam Bedlow |
| Tom Litchfield | 23 | Ioan Lloyd |
Not considered for selection:
Juarno Augustus, George Furbank, Mike Haywood, Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi, Emmanuel Iyogun, Tom James, Matt Proctor, James Ramm and Ollie Sleightholme.
International Duty:
Tommy Freeman, Courtney Lawes, Lewis Ludlam, Alex Mitchell and David Ribbans (all England).
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StumbleuponSaints v Bristol Match Thread 03/03/23 - Teams Up
Discussion started by Marching On , 02/03/2023 12:06
Marching On
02/03/2023 12:06
02/03/2023 12:06
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:09:12:04:33 by Saint Ted.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:09:12:04:33 by Saint Ted.
Unfortunately I think this is a stretch too far for us with no Ramm against a fairly full looking Bristol squad. Very much hope to be proven wrong (which I have been the past 3 league games!)
Some big units in the Bristol line -up……….if we can keep them at bay for fifty minutes, maybe
13 players arguably missing from a first choice 23 will put strain on any squad.
Shame Ramm and Furbank aren’t fit enough to play but excited to see Hendy get some game time.
Interesting to see Waller and Hill on the bench, maybe a saints bomb squad?!
And where is Robbie Smith, just rested perhaps? He’s been playing very well so surprised to not see him on the bench.
This could be a bridge too far as Bristol back line looks strong but if we can keep it tight and force them into some mistakes then who knows as their confidence must be low-ish.
Hoping for a competitive match at least
Shame Ramm and Furbank aren’t fit enough to play but excited to see Hendy get some game time.
Interesting to see Waller and Hill on the bench, maybe a saints bomb squad?!
And where is Robbie Smith, just rested perhaps? He’s been playing very well so surprised to not see him on the bench.
This could be a bridge too far as Bristol back line looks strong but if we can keep it tight and force them into some mistakes then who knows as their confidence must be low-ish.
Hoping for a competitive match at least
It does look a big ask with the number of first choice players absent for whatever reason. But we still have a good number of grafters and game-changers so anything could happen, especially as there will be every expectation of a Bristol win.
Interesting to note our shift in starting front row, I think both Sue and Hilly quality players even if they’re not the very best of scrummagers. Is this a first prem start for Hendy too? All very interesting!
Interesting to note our shift in starting front row, I think both Sue and Hilly quality players even if they’re not the very best of scrummagers. Is this a first prem start for Hendy too? All very interesting!
Bristol really should be winning this and well.
Nothing we can do about it, but what a s%#@e show from England! Fingers crossed we can click and be greater than the sum of the parts but I'm not holding out much hope.
Its not the starting team that overly concerns me, its the depth of the bench, especially the backs. If Fin Smith gets injured we're covered, otherwise we're looking very very thin!
Nothing we can do about it, but what a s%#@e show from England! Fingers crossed we can click and be greater than the sum of the parts but I'm not holding out much hope.
Its not the starting team that overly concerns me, its the depth of the bench, especially the backs. If Fin Smith gets injured we're covered, otherwise we're looking very very thin!
Dows and the coaching team will have sat down and looked long and hard at the remaining games. You cannot legislate too much for injuries that have not yet occurred but you should have a pretty good idea about availability with regard to existing injury concerns. The never ending influence of the 6N is nothing less than odious especially upon a fallow weekend such as this one.
Saints will have to win an absolute minimum of three out of the remaining four games beyond this weekend. Bath are in a mess, a full strength Saints team should be able to win at Newcastle BUT we are then into the issue of Irish away on St Patrick’s weekend ( I believe ) and Saracens at home at a time of the season when they may have top slot already sown up with European games a priority.
Difficult judgement calls using the crystal ball. Any points return from Ashton Gate would be useful.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:02:16:20:40 by NGSB.
Saints will have to win an absolute minimum of three out of the remaining four games beyond this weekend. Bath are in a mess, a full strength Saints team should be able to win at Newcastle BUT we are then into the issue of Irish away on St Patrick’s weekend ( I believe ) and Saracens at home at a time of the season when they may have top slot already sown up with European games a priority.
Difficult judgement calls using the crystal ball. Any points return from Ashton Gate would be useful.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:02:16:20:40 by NGSB.
3 great Premiership results recently but IMHO trend very unlikely to continue given the playing away factor and the very significant number(13) of key players missing as a result of injuries and England training squad farce .100% hope I am wrong but can see us losing this one by 25 plus points with no bonus point.
As said the England training camp situation is a joke. All bar Ludlam need game time having played very few minutes in recent weeks.
Might take one for the team, Saints seem to save their best performances for when I can't watch, going out for a meal could also gain some well needed brownie points with the wife...
A tough ask. But whilst Bristol look good on paper they were pretty stilted v Bath needing some magic from Radradra to look dangerous.
So a game where we go without expectations - which may suit us
So a game where we go without expectations - which may suit us
As a Sarries fan really interested to see how Hendy goes, saw him against us in prem cup and for Bedford against Ampthill and if you’d said that was Henry Arundell I’d have believed you!
Oh dear!
Lucky escape I think.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:20:11:30 by Saint Kris.
Lucky escape I think.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:20:11:30 by Saint Kris.
Harry 'bloody' Thacker!
Always plays well against us, whether it's for Tigs or Bristol.
Always plays well against us, whether it's for Tigs or Bristol.
Tackling is atrocious. Really need to get their heads out of the grass and start thinking about this game.
Embarrassing. I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen Hendy tackle anyone. But it’s not his fault, it’s standards at the club.
Quote:Toulousian Firefighter
Embarrassing. I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen Hendy tackle anyone. But it’s not his fault, it’s standards at the club.
Surprised ?
I'm not.
As others have said its ridiculous to continue to run a full programme of games when there are international games scheduled
Quote:Saint Kris
Was Thacker on side there?
And that makes a difference why with some referees! Tempest missing the forward pass before he then gives a penalty for pulling back, joke.
Until the 2nd try I didn't think the score was a fair reflection but from then on, it feels like our heads have dropped and Tempest has decided that we're in the wrong.
Still, 1st team playing 2nd/3rd team... What do you expect?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:20:32:46 by Stokey.
Still, 1st team playing 2nd/3rd team... What do you expect?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:20:32:46 by Stokey.
Quote:Trollman
As others have said its ridiculous to continue to run a full programme of games when there are international games scheduled
Especially when they release players like Smith for more game time and Courtney has played much less in the last months.
However easy it is to blame internationals or the referee or anything else
There are two big differences in that first half
They made their tackles
We fell off far too many giving them unnecessary opportunities
Their defence line was far quicker and stronger than ours
We are unable to breach theirs while they are moving us backwards every time they run at us
I don’t care how many players are missing
We have to do the basics right
Let’s hope a few stirring words are put around at half time
There are two big differences in that first half
They made their tackles
We fell off far too many giving them unnecessary opportunities
Their defence line was far quicker and stronger than ours
We are unable to breach theirs while they are moving us backwards every time they run at us
I don’t care how many players are missing
We have to do the basics right
Let’s hope a few stirring words are put around at half time
Bristol missing 5 from their first choice 23 whereas we are missing 13.
Hendy has a lot of potential but his opposite number is an all black and rumoured to earn £1mn a season, just different levels and reflective of the performance. The premiership will never grow as a product when it’s a totally lottery as to who you play in the internationals.
That said, it doesn’t excuse poor tackling, players running out the line, rolling on the floor etc. But just being totally outplayed across the pitch
Hendy has a lot of potential but his opposite number is an all black and rumoured to earn £1mn a season, just different levels and reflective of the performance. The premiership will never grow as a product when it’s a totally lottery as to who you play in the internationals.
That said, it doesn’t excuse poor tackling, players running out the line, rolling on the floor etc. But just being totally outplayed across the pitch
We should still be making tackles no matter who’s on the pitch. Defence and lineout Pathetic.
Some forwards are either just not trying or are nowhere near fit and capable enough to be in a premiership team. Either way on the coaches for me, given we've been both exceptional and then switching off in the last 3 games.
As good as we can be and as many players that we have out I think we need a change in defensive coach and to let a few players go. Our backs are far too good to waste being let down by a few poor/lazy forwards and few poor coaches.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:20:43:43 by Saintfanh.
As good as we can be and as many players that we have out I think we need a change in defensive coach and to let a few players go. Our backs are far too good to waste being let down by a few poor/lazy forwards and few poor coaches.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:20:43:43 by Saintfanh.
Quote:Deesaint
However easy it is to blame internationals or the referee or anything else
There are two big differences in that first half
They made their tackles
We fell off far too many giving them unnecessary opportunities
Their defence line was far quicker and stronger than ours
We are unable to breach theirs while they are moving us backwards every time they run at us
I don’t care how many players are missing
We have to do the basics right
Let’s hope a few stirring words are put around at half time
Think you’re right - defence has been the difference
Matavesis arrows are very poor, lineout has been good over the past few weeks so would suggest a deficiency with his game.
Wow, 21 missed tackles in the first half. Says it all
Wow, 21 missed tackles in the first half. Says it all
Quote:Saint KrisQuote:Deesaint
However easy it is to blame internationals or the referee or anything else
There are two big differences in that first half
They made their tackles
We fell off far too many giving them unnecessary opportunities
Their defence line was far quicker and stronger than ours
We are unable to breach theirs while they are moving us backwards every time they run at us
I don’t care how many players are missing
We have to do the basics right
Let’s hope a few stirring words are put around at half time
Think you’re right - defence has been the difference
+
Embarrassing. Some of the selection decisions bemuse me. Grayson, decent game last week, playing at 10 against a decent Gloucester side, dropped effectively. Matavesi back from injury, straight in ahead of cruse. Surely if you want to create a competitive squad, you earn your shirt, rather than have it straight back on your return. Probably exceptions to that if genuine superstars, but matavesi for one not exactly covered himself in glory in the first half.
Let’s hope we can get the first score in the second half, and the second and the third and so on
I’m not that anti this period. I like seeing the squad players. Having said that, is tonight’s team that depleted? 15,9 and 8 aren’t first team regulars. Maybe the props? But a lot of the players are regulars/experienced.
How about starting the half by not making touch from a penalty and then conceding almost immediately afterwards? Dire.
Just an awful side at times. Wheres the pride? A few weeks we show a bit of fight and dog and then this?
Another game where Ian Tempest pings us for something no one else bothers with … it’s the referee randomiser!
7 (I think) changes from last week and certain position s we are 3rd choice. This is the result
Quote:chappers_saint
7 (I think) changes from last week and certain position s we are 3rd choice. This is the result
A lot of this side is in our first choice 23. Lots of internationals out there and experience. It shouldn't be this bad.
I hope we were watching Gloucester last weekend (and that Bristol were watching us!).
6 tries to 0
6 tries to 0
Quote:Matthew
I hope we were watching Gloucester last weekend (and that Bristol were watching us!).
6 tries to 0
9 in a row with out scoring one now
Hendy is very good in attack.
Unfortunately, like most of the academy graduates (and some you may not have seen yet) his defence is seriously lacking.
There is no tackling training done in the academy and also below in DPP, EPDG, etc .
The academy has got to the final two years running, so they must be doing something right.
They have also lost the final two years running.
Unfortunately, like most of the academy graduates (and some you may not have seen yet) his defence is seriously lacking.
There is no tackling training done in the academy and also below in DPP, EPDG, etc .
The academy has got to the final two years running, so they must be doing something right.
They have also lost the final two years running.
Everything seems to be going awry for us tonight … and everything falling well for Bristol.
Not making excuses (we’re playing poorly) but it’s a little demoralising
Not making excuses (we’re playing poorly) but it’s a little demoralising
Just had a try disallowed too.
No we haven't; it has been given!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:21:10:10 by Matthew.
No we haven't; it has been given!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:21:10:10 by Matthew.
Totally shambolic and a wasted journey for anyone travelling all the way to Bristol. Hendy too inexperienced for this level , Collins has played full back and should have started there, Matavesi been out for a long period and straight in, throws have been all over place. Kick offs straight into touch, shambolic tackling and no shape whatsoever.
This farce with the England squad holding onto players who have not played a minute of rugby is questionable and will result in people saying enough is enough.
Season ticket prices remaining roughly the same but 2 less matches in the league, 1 less European match from 3 years ago and no wanderers matches. Seriously considering not renewing next season and for good reason.
This farce with the England squad holding onto players who have not played a minute of rugby is questionable and will result in people saying enough is enough.
Season ticket prices remaining roughly the same but 2 less matches in the league, 1 less European match from 3 years ago and no wanderers matches. Seriously considering not renewing next season and for good reason.
Can anyone explain why Dowson is sat all on his own. Where are the rest of the coaching team and support?
Quote:Iamasaint
Should have done.
Tempest is a joke.
Yep definitely forward.
Was considering going tonight. So glad I haven't, which is a shame to say. Got to feel for the saints fans that have gone because this is just ugly.
How was our try allowed? 2 massive forward passes.
I feel like I’m watching the South African try for Scotland, against England. Everyone gushing about how great the attack is when the defence is dire.
This is the worst I’ve seen us in a while. And that is saying something. But will anything change?
I feel like I’m watching the South African try for Scotland, against England. Everyone gushing about how great the attack is when the defence is dire.
This is the worst I’ve seen us in a while. And that is saying something. But will anything change?
Quote:Iamasaint
Hendy is very good in attack.
Unfortunately, like most of the academy graduates (and some you may not have seen yet) his defence is seriously lacking.
There is no tackling training done in the academy and also below in DPP, EPDG, etc .
The academy has got to the final two years running, so they must be doing something right.
They have also lost the final two years running.
Saints losing the big games when it really matters .
Surely not !!
Quote:Toulousian Firefighter
How was our try allowed? 2 massive forward passes.
I feel like I’m watching the South African try for Scotland, against England. Everyone gushing about how great the attack is when the defence is dire.
This is the worst I’ve seen us in a while. And that is saying something. But will anything change?
We'll learn from it I suspect!
This is utterly shambolic for a professional rugby team, no fight or dog and the tacking is appalling.
Collins looks good, guess he wants to show his new employers what they are getting!
Collins looks good, guess he wants to show his new employers what they are getting!
To try and negate any team excuses, third choices etc... It's only garside and hendy with minimal experience. Everyone else by my reckoning is relatively high in prem experience, a regular in our 23 or an international. Yes some international call ups and non releases don't help, but this is a saints side that should have been at least competitive.
Quote:TunbridgeSaint
This is utterly shambolic for a professional rugby team, no fight or dog and the tacking is appalling.
Collins looks good, guess he wants to show his new employers what they are getting!
Agree Collins has been great (as have all the Bristol team) and shows the difference when players are really working for everything. Is he definitely leaving Saints? I think I'd rather playing backs in the forwards the way this game has gone and keep TC!
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:22:33:15 by Saintfanh.
Poor performance tonight irrespective of missing players (which nevertheless sticks in the craw) but just one game. Still in control of where we are but need to win well next Friday.
Worrying that we’ll not be playing in the last week of the regular season.
Worrying that we’ll not be playing in the last week of the regular season.
Yes we're depleted and fielding the fringes of our squad but this is not ok.
Every facet of our game, bar the first 7 minutes has been woeful!
Every facet of our game, bar the first 7 minutes has been woeful!
Being a Saints fan living in Bristol, I don’t get to go to many games. On the basis of this performance, it will probably be a while before I invest my time & money to visit the Gardens again
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:21:33:00 by northampton_lad.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:03:21:33:00 by northampton_lad.
we have now conceded over 500 points this season. No other team has passed 400 as yet.
Tonights performance is pathetic. Poor tackling, no pride.
Ive now switched the tv off and I renewed my tickets today..
Tonights performance is pathetic. Poor tackling, no pride.
Ive now switched the tv off and I renewed my tickets today..
Well we came up against a Bristol side with their key players in outstanding form. Bristol weathered the early storm and then cut loose. Loosing Coles was a blow but we just couldn’t get a foothold. We needed the likes of Salakia Loto and Matavesi to step up and deliver but had had a poor games as too did Braley I thought. Collins looked better than Scosan and the youngsters got a bit of a “welcome to the prem” experience.
Quote:herbie85
To try and negate any team excuses, third choices etc... It's only garside and hendy with minimal experience. Everyone else by my reckoning is relatively high in prem experience, a regular in our 23 or an international. Yes some international call ups and non releases don't help, but this is a saints side that should have been at least competitive.
Jeez! This is painful reading the live commentary!!
Yo-yo performances yet again 🙄
Yo-yo performances yet again 🙄
Truly appalling performance, no fight or dog and results in our record premiership defeat.
Tackling is inexcusable, serious questions need to be asked of Vass.
Collins a bright spark and A Waller made a difference. Remaining 4 matches are all must win now.
At least we got through the game without any bans pending!
Tackling is inexcusable, serious questions need to be asked of Vass.
Collins a bright spark and A Waller made a difference. Remaining 4 matches are all must win now.
At least we got through the game without any bans pending!
One win away from home all season. Seems to expose a soft underbelly.
I wonder if our recruitment over the summer will address this, and the international period.
I wonder if our recruitment over the summer will address this, and the international period.
Quote:This is a horrifying state!cparksaint
we have now conceded over 500 points this season. No other team has passed 400 as yet.
Tonights performance is pathetic. Poor tackling, no pride.
Ive now switched the tv off and I renewed my tickets today..
You don't see this in any other top class sport with a weekend where England isn't playing, just training.
Astonishing & basically 2 fingers up to the people who pay their hard earned cash to watch top class rugby in this country
Astonishing & basically 2 fingers up to the people who pay their hard earned cash to watch top class rugby in this country
Every team suffers through international call up and injury and please let’s not blame the ref
Bears thought process was far quicker than ours
We played catch up rugby for 73 minutes
Their defence was in a different league as I said previously
If we had defended properly their players would not have had the space to rip us apart
We just seemed slow sloppy and out of step with each other
That in my mind is down to two things
Coaching and
Too by many level 2/3/4 players who are probably cost effective and tick a box on a spreadsheet
Onwards and hopefully upwards
Bears thought process was far quicker than ours
We played catch up rugby for 73 minutes
Their defence was in a different league as I said previously
If we had defended properly their players would not have had the space to rip us apart
We just seemed slow sloppy and out of step with each other
That in my mind is down to two things
Coaching and
Too by many level 2/3/4 players who are probably cost effective and tick a box on a spreadsheet
Onwards and hopefully upwards
Quote:Happywifehappylife
You don't see this in any other top class sport with a weekend where England isn't playing, just training.
Astonishing & basically 2 fingers up to the people who pay their hard earned cash to watch top class rugby in this country
It’s always been the way.
We had 5 they had 2 unavailable with England. Does not relate to how bad the discrepancy in the teams were.
The recent home form has papered over the cracks. They were fully exposed today and it’s not like we haven’t been aware of it for some time.
Well, that was a chastening experience. When you spend 70 minutes on the back foot, trying to defend against a team who are clearly up for it big time, heads will dip.
So many issues to address that there seems little point in talking about individual performances. Only Tom Collins looked the part.
Play at the breakdown was the poorest aspect of Saints' game tonight IMHO.
But what a joy to see a player of the quality of Charles Piutau.
So many issues to address that there seems little point in talking about individual performances. Only Tom Collins looked the part.
Play at the breakdown was the poorest aspect of Saints' game tonight IMHO.
But what a joy to see a player of the quality of Charles Piutau.
Pity there was no post-match interview on Radio Northampton. Was anything given on TV? Record Premiership defeat and, as cparksaint notes, the next worst defence in the Premiership has still conceded over a hundred points fewer than ours. It's just not good enough.
Quote:Stockers
W
But what a joy to see a player of the quality of Charles Piutau.
Couldn’t agree more
Worst defence stats in all areas of play in the Prem and 100 points worse than the next team, in what other business does the defence coach with this level of performance keep his job? However this is Northampton where keeping an ex player happy overrides the opinion of 1000's of season ticket holders, I've decided it's show some balls Saints and bring in Sinfield Mk 2, or the season ticket gets replaced with a ticket on the day if we are not on TV.
If we'd scored a hatful of tries tonight you could at least accept the defensive frailty as the price to pay for guaranteed scores. But we didn't, so you can't.
Quote:HammerSaint
Worst defence stats in all areas of play in the Prem and 100 points worse than the next team, in what other business does the defence coach with this level of performance keep his job? However this is Northampton where keeping an ex player happy overrides the opinion of 1000's of season ticket holders, I've decided it's show some balls Saints and bring in Sinfield Mk 2, or the season ticket gets replaced with a ticket on the day if we are not on TV.
I agree the Board has to take action and bring a new defence coach in and a few forwards need to be told another performance like that and they won't have a contract. Just think how good we could be with a defence and work rate as good as Bristol's was today.
Quote:SaintfanhQuote:HammerSaint
Worst defence stats in all areas of play in the Prem and 100 points worse than the next team, in what other business does the defence coach with this level of performance keep his job? However this is Northampton where keeping an ex player happy overrides the opinion of 1000's of season ticket holders, I've decided it's show some balls Saints and bring in Sinfield Mk 2, or the season ticket gets replaced with a ticket on the day if we are not on TV.
I agree the Board has to take action and bring a new defence coach in and a few forwards need to be told another performance like that and they won't have a contract. Just think how good we could be with a
defence and work rate as good as Bristol's was today.
It's not just a defence coach.
The whole set up is too cosy and has rewarded failure.
Quote:Saintfanh
Some forwards are either just not trying or are nowhere near fit and capable enough to be in a premiership team. Either way on the coaches for me, given we've been both exceptional and then switching off in the last 3 games.
As good as we can be and as many players that we have out I think we need a change in defensive coach and to let a few players go. Our backs are far too good to waste being let down by a few poor/lazy forwards and few poor coaches.
How would we "let a few players go" if some of those players are in contract until June 2024 (or beyond)? It's only possible by mutual consent (unless gross misconduct occurs) - if the reason why you/others want them to be offloaded is they're not up to scratch, it's unlikely there'll be many other clubs desperate to sign them. If there were a demand it could be at a pay cut they'd be unwilling to take.
Quote:Matthew
Pity there was no post-match interview on Radio Northampton. Was anything given on TV? Record Premiership defeat and, as cparksaint notes, the next worst defence in the Premiership has still conceded over a hundred points fewer than ours. It's just not good enough.
Just seen a few quotes from the chron. Humbling as record defeat, not good enough, players quiet afterwards. Need a reaction etc. Normal stuff really, although caveat that the written words lack further context etc or how Dowson was.
Think most supporters had a feeling that this was coming but hoped it wasn't. Not many of us surprised though but dissapointment runs deep. Wondervwhat our half million pound a year CEO thinks?
A bit surprised there isn't mention of the Semi tackle on Hendy early on. Seemed a pretty clear yellow after mitigation for the dip. Shoulder to chin?
Maybe with Bristol in that form it wouldn't have made a difference but Saints did seem to have the momentum very early and that would have swung it further in your favour. Not quite sure what happened after that.
Maybe with Bristol in that form it wouldn't have made a difference but Saints did seem to have the momentum very early and that would have swung it further in your favour. Not quite sure what happened after that.
Reading all the comments - both on here, another forum, and Facebook, makes me wonder if I might actually be suffering from PTSD.
I'm laughing at it. It was so bad, I can't get angry or upset. Even my Tigers buddy offered me his shoulder!
In another thread, I said that Northampton had a low attainment mentality. I did not expect such proof so soon after.
I listened to the Saints programme on Wednesday, featuring Ian Vass. Sorry Graham, but he came across as our defence does. Soft and wooly.
I wonder if we have anyone in the club, who will actually make a statement of unacceptability to the squad? I doubt it.
I'm laughing at it. It was so bad, I can't get angry or upset. Even my Tigers buddy offered me his shoulder!
In another thread, I said that Northampton had a low attainment mentality. I did not expect such proof so soon after.
I listened to the Saints programme on Wednesday, featuring Ian Vass. Sorry Graham, but he came across as our defence does. Soft and wooly.
I wonder if we have anyone in the club, who will actually make a statement of unacceptability to the squad? I doubt it.
Quote:Longers
I listened to the Saints programme on Wednesday, featuring Ian Vass. Sorry Graham, but he came across as our defence does. Soft and wooly.
It certainly wasn’t inspiring for someone who was hailed as ‘one of the leading young defence coaches in the northern hemisphere’ on appointment by the club.
I’d love to see some experience come into the coaching team.
Quote:OldMarovian
A bit surprised there isn't mention of the Semi tackle on Hendy early on. Seemed a pretty clear yellow after mitigation for the dip. Shoulder to chin? .
I was more annoyed by the high tackle/neck roll given against Hutch mere seconds after Hilly was dragged backwards and thrown to the floor by an arm around the neck...
Well that was bad. Worse than acceptable even allowing for absences with England or injury.
Our defence needs an overhaul and our young players coming in need to be fully confident in the defensive system so that they can slot in.
I admired the world class plays by Bristol, but most of their success was built on doing the basics well, and we should be able to defend against that.
Our defence needs an overhaul and our young players coming in need to be fully confident in the defensive system so that they can slot in.
I admired the world class plays by Bristol, but most of their success was built on doing the basics well, and we should be able to defend against that.
I thought the only figure that was going to bring a tear to my eye this weekend was how much Mrs Ted had spent on sofas. How wrong I was!
The match stats need to come with a health warning.
The match stats need to come with a health warning.
The number of missed tackles and collision losses was the root cause of all your problems but can’t explain why you were so good last week and so poor this week. Hope we don’t come a cropper against Bath but quite possible.
514 points against in 16 premiership games. An average of 32.2 points conceded. Leicester, who have played a game less, are second in terms of points conceded at 395, so 119 points behind.
Then you look at the prem cup and Europe, we have conceded a further 242 points across 9 matches (I think) at an average of 26.9.
In 27 games this season (including the Barbarians) we have conceded 20 try bonus points.
Last night was unacceptably bad. I've not looked at the stats in full but I think we missed 43 tackles? And even with many of those we actually completed were going too high and only bringing the man down after conceding decent yardage. The players must accept responsibility but I think the above stats show that over the course of a number of games, regardless of who is playing, our defence has been poor.
Surely the board must be thinking about a new defence coach?
Then you look at the prem cup and Europe, we have conceded a further 242 points across 9 matches (I think) at an average of 26.9.
In 27 games this season (including the Barbarians) we have conceded 20 try bonus points.
Last night was unacceptably bad. I've not looked at the stats in full but I think we missed 43 tackles? And even with many of those we actually completed were going too high and only bringing the man down after conceding decent yardage. The players must accept responsibility but I think the above stats show that over the course of a number of games, regardless of who is playing, our defence has been poor.
Surely the board must be thinking about a new defence coach?
Sometimes a performance is just so bad you are best off totally ignoring it. Last night was totally unacceptable on just about every level, but anyone who has played sport for any length of time knows it happens.
We have actually had a really good run of results and picked up far more points than I expected in the previous four games. Our defence and discipline have both improved and we have seen some of the squad players really step up with out internationals away.
We still look shaky at times but we are not going to solve all of the problems in a short space of time. We need to continue with what we have been working on and ignore last night.
We have actually had a really good run of results and picked up far more points than I expected in the previous four games. Our defence and discipline have both improved and we have seen some of the squad players really step up with out internationals away.
We still look shaky at times but we are not going to solve all of the problems in a short space of time. We need to continue with what we have been working on and ignore last night.
The figures stated above are really quite shocking and surely cannot continue. It’s not just last night it’s a consistent trend throughout the whole season. How this defence coach/system and mindset remains in place is a joke now. Don’t need to be a DOR or CEO to realise we won’t win anything conceding an average of 32 points a game. Time to get a grip of it!!
Quote:ajack
Sometimes a performance is just so bad you are best off totally ignoring it. Last night was totally unacceptable on just about every level, but anyone who has played sport for any length of time knows it happens.
We have actually had a really good run of results and picked up far more points than I expected in the previous four games. Our defence and discipline have both improved and we have seen some of the squad players really step up with out internationals away.
We still look shaky at times but we are not going to solve all of the problems in a short space of time. We need to continue with what we have been working on and ignore last night.
I think you are getting amateur sport mixed up with professional sport with well paid players who are full time as well as a well stocked coaching contingent
That performance was a continuation of the last 10 minutes against Gloucester
Saying to ignore it is akin too
My dog is very friendly with children
He bit one yesterday but we are ignoring that
My wife has been very loving over the past few months I know she went with someone else last night but I’m ignoring that
I just hope the coaches and team are not ignoring it finding out what went wrong and putting in a plan of action to fix it
I would also hope Darbon is earning his large pay cheque by calling in the whole coaching team explaining to them that they have until the end of the season to show they can do the job otherwise go elsewhere - contract or no contract -
At the same time searching for suitable replacements if they do not shape up
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:04:14:50:16 by Deesaint.
I hope l am wrong but l can't see us beating Bath next week. We always seem to loose against the bottom team and if they get the double over us when being bottom on both occasions will be the final straw. There was a total lack of leadership last night.
Quote:DeesaintQuote:ajack
Sometimes a performance is just so bad you are best off totally ignoring it. Last night was totally unacceptable on just about every level, but anyone who has played sport for any length of time knows it happens.
We have actually had a really good run of results and picked up far more points than I expected in the previous four games. Our defence and discipline have both improved and we have seen some of the squad players really step up with out internationals away.
We still look shaky at times but we are not going to solve all of the problems in a short space of time. We need to continue with what we have been working on and ignore last night.
I think you are getting amateur sport mixed up with professional sport with well paid players who are full time as well as a well stocked coaching contingent
That performance was a continuation of the last 10 minutes against Gloucester
Saying to ignore it is akin too
My dog is very friendly with children
He bit one yesterday but we are ignoring that
My wife has been very loving over the past few months I know she went with someone else last night but I’m ignoring that
I just hope the coaches and team are not ignoring it finding out what went wrong and putting in a plan of action to fix it
I would also hope Darbon is earning his large pay cheque by calling in the whole coaching team explaining to them that they have until the end of the season to show they can do the job otherwise go elsewhere - contract or no contract -
At the same time searching for suitable replacements if they do not shape up
No confusion here at all, we were simply so awful last night if you wanted to dig into that you would fire pretty much everyone from Darbon down.
You will see golfers who win majors rebuild their swing in order to get stronger in the long term. There will be days where everything goes wrong but they still stick with aiming for the long term goals.
To use your example it would be more accurate to say I have a dog that has been prone to biting people for the last five years, lately with training it has been much improved and not bitten anyone for weeks, despite growling at someone last week. Should I completely give up on the improvements it has shown because it bite someone last night?
We were so bad last night, but have beaten some good sides in the previous weeks. In fact probably one of the best runs of any side all year.
Beaten those good sides how though? A tired and depleted Quins and a Sale suffering cards aplenty. And I suggest we'd have lost to Gloucester if that game had been any longer at all!
You can't have it both ways Matthew. You seem to think we only won against Quins and Tigers because they were tired and depleted and against Sale because they had players yellow carded for foul play. We only won against Gloucester because the game only lasted 80 minutes. Yet Bristol won because we were rubbish not because we had 13 first team players missing and they were very good. Yes we were terrible last night but do give some credit where its due, those 3 wins and the defeat of Leicester were a huge effort and we played some wonderful rugby.
Consistency, we suffered from that early on too, we are not the only two doing it, funny old season, is it no fear because of ring fencing, is this something we might see for ever? I hope not.
Agreed. I wouldn’t judge us on last night. Just like I wouldn’t judge us on the wins against Sale and Quins. The wins against Tigers and Glaws were excellent and showed real progress. I wouldn’t have appointed this coaching team but they’ve been appointed, they’re an inexperienced team and they have an enormous amount of work to do to create a playing philosophy that can win. I’m not critical of them but I am critical of what went before them. Let’s see how the rest of the season plays out - but I really thought I saw some green shoots of hope against a strong Glaws.
I think it can be both true that we've been brilliant in attack for the majority of the season, particularly in the 3 games, and terrible in defence, with small improvements at times. However happy I was with those 3 wins it's papering over the cracks not to recognise how poor our defence is and pretend that the Bristol game or those 3 late tries against Gloucester aren't further evidence of a critical problem.
Vass has to go and possibly now, as hard as that is mid-season. The question is have the Board been doing their job and lining up a successor?
I still think we have the back line and back row to win the premiership, the Board needs to decide how they can sort the front 5 out and if Dowson can do that through coaching. That said I don't buy the "this is all Boyds fault" though from previous threads - our skillset and attacking play and culture came from Boyd, built on by Vesty - Boyd just didn't recognise and bring someone else in who could sort the set piece and defence. At least Dowson has started to improve the former.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:04:19:16:26 by Saintfanh.
Vass has to go and possibly now, as hard as that is mid-season. The question is have the Board been doing their job and lining up a successor?
I still think we have the back line and back row to win the premiership, the Board needs to decide how they can sort the front 5 out and if Dowson can do that through coaching. That said I don't buy the "this is all Boyds fault" though from previous threads - our skillset and attacking play and culture came from Boyd, built on by Vesty - Boyd just didn't recognise and bring someone else in who could sort the set piece and defence. At least Dowson has started to improve the former.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:04:19:16:26 by Saintfanh.
Quote:Saintfanh
That said I don't buy the "this is all Boyds fault" though from previous threads - our skillset and attacking play and culture came from Boyd, built on by Vesty - Boyd just didn't recognise and bring someone else in who could sort the set piece and defence. At least Dowson has started to improve the former.
I agree with what you say but to my mind that DOES make it Boyd’s fault. Dowson inherited a team with no defence and poor set piece. It took 4 years to get to that point. You can’t just flick a switch and all of a sudden you have great defence and strong set piece. It will take time and investment - investment that I’m not sure is available.
Quote:StatesmanQuote:Saintfanh
That said I don't buy the "this is all Boyds fault" though from previous threads - our skillset and attacking play and culture came from Boyd, built on by Vesty - Boyd just didn't recognise and bring someone else in who could sort the set piece and defence. At least Dowson has started to improve the former.
I agree with what you say but to my mind that DOES make it Boyd’s fault. Dowson inherited a team with no defence and poor set piece. It took 4 years to get to that point. You can’t just flick a switch and all of a sudden you have great defence and strong set piece. It will take time and investment - investment that I’m not sure is available.
Yeh that's true, you're right he's responsible for the good and the bad. I'd probably still take the attacking skillset and culture he created particularly as he inherited a team without many strengths. But you're right he is responsible for not sorting the other areas
I think the game was a culmination of everything we have seen over the last few years. A level of inconsistency which is totally unacceptable and pretty uncommon. And getting worse. The attack shows Saints CAN play this game. But the defense shows Saints can switch off for longer and longer periods. And in this case for 80 minutes.
This is a big moment. The team management is really under the microscope now (or should be), so let's see what they communicate and what they do.
This is a big moment. The team management is really under the microscope now (or should be), so let's see what they communicate and what they do.
Quote:StatesmanQuote:Saintfanh
That said I don't buy the "this is all Boyds fault" though from previous threads - our skillset and attacking play and culture came from Boyd, built on by Vesty - Boyd just didn't recognise and bring someone else in who could sort the set piece and defence. At least Dowson has started to improve the former.
I agree with what you say but to my mind that DOES make it Boyd’s fault. Dowson inherited a team with no defence and poor set piece. It took 4 years to get to that point. You can’t just flick a switch and all of
a sudden you have great defence and strong set piece. It will take time and investment - investment that I’m not sure is available.
Totally agree with that. When you have spent that long believing the scrum doesn't matter for example you are not going to have a great set of props coming through for example.
Things have looked better lately but as shown on Friday they are still very fragile.
We brought someone in on all accounts for a sizeable chunk of money and with the ability to spend up to the cap and have high end marquee players in who got us to between forth and Eighth we replaced him with someone with little experience who has a much tighter budget to work with and had to let the high earning players go who currently has us in forth position. We may finish higher or lower than that but we seem to be around where we were or better than under Boyd.
For someone in their first year at that level working on a reduced budget and with a squad not of his choosing that is not a bad return in my eyes.
Out of interest
Which players has he had to let go due to the salary cap ?
Not forgetting that the revised cap has been in place since the start of this season
Which players has he had to let go due to the salary cap ?
Not forgetting that the revised cap has been in place since the start of this season
Quote:Deesaint
Out of interest
Which players has he had to let go due to the salary cap ?
Not forgetting that the revised cap has been in place since the start of this season
I believe Naiyaravoro and Biggar were our two marquee players and we were told we were on the limit of the cap.
It seems we are not paying up to the cap these days and have lost a lot of experience losing players like Franks, Wood and Hartley as well as Biggar. A good couple of hundred caps there alone.
It is hard to believe our current squad costs the same as it has in the past, even with the reductions.
Revised salary cap has been in place since the start of last season and over 80 players were left without contract at the end of the season and that’s even before Wasps and Worcester went under.
Quote:ajackQuote:Deesaint
Out of interest
Which players has he had to let go due to the salary cap ?
Not forgetting that the revised cap has been in place since the start of this season
I believe Naiyaravoro and Biggar were our two marquee players and we were told we were on the limit of the cap.
It seems we are not paying up to the cap these days and have lost a lot of experience losing players like Franks, Wood and Hartley as well as Biggar. A good couple of hundred caps there alone.
It is hard to believe our current squad costs the same as it has in the past, even with the reductions.
Brussow was a high earner as well. Although a few players may have re-signed and had a pay rise but I think you're spot on - high earners have moved on and not been replaced with like-for-like.
Naiyaravoro was effectively replaced by Skosan (not cheap but cheaper). If CS is rumoured to be off in a few months, that could him and Collins replaced by Seabrook (and an academy graduate or another new signing?). If Proctor is off, Odendaal is surely cheaper.
“I would also hope Darbon is earning his large pay cheque by calling in the whole coaching team explaining to them that they have until the end of the season to show they can do the job otherwise go elsewhere - contract or no contract “
Who’s going to call Darbon in? Where does the buck stop?
Who’s going to call Darbon in? Where does the buck stop?
Quote:stjj
“I would also hope Darbon is earning his large pay cheque by calling in the whole coaching team explaining to them that they have until the end of the season to show they can do the job otherwise go elsewhere - contract or no contract “
Who’s going to call Darbon in? Where does the buck stop?
The sales of Season Tickets will be one hurdle for him and the board, although the politician in me ( 🤢 ) might argue a number of "excuses" rather than admit we don't want to watch garbage!
Would it be too cynical to think that key players were retained within the England set up in order to favour other teams chasing the top four - one particularly comes to mind?
I think you just file that under one of those days. 9 times out of 10 Bristol fluff their lines on a lot of those tries but everything just stuck for them. A few dodgy ref calls as well.
Quote:stjj
“I would also hope Darbon is earning his large pay cheque by calling in the whole coaching team explaining to them that they have until the end of the season to show they can do the job otherwise go elsewhere - contract or no contract “
Who’s going to call Darbon in? Where does the buck stop?
Agreed, it has been mentioned elsewhere that Saints are more than about the rugby now, and that is true. I just wonder what constitutes success in the minds of the board. I presume that those clubs with rich owners who are willing to bankroll losses then rugby results are first and foremost, although they are not always achieved. I see no evidence that results are the priority at Saints.
We see the playing budget cut, the administration budget rise and are asked to pay top dollar for everything involved in the match day experience.
That may work for a while and sure we know that there are some who will attend whatever but there are many who won’t.
Quote:Shugs
I think you just file that under one of those days. 9 times out of 10 Bristol fluff their lines on a lot of those tries but everything just stuck for them. A few dodgy ref calls as well.
Except it wasn’t just one of those days was it? As stated earlier we concede an average of around 30 points per match, not just one of those days, every single game day. That statistic alone means Saints cannot win anything.
Concede 30 but are generally competitive. The one of those days statement refers to the manner of the loss.
Quote:Shugs
Concede 30 but are generally competitive. The one of those days statement refers to the manner of the loss.
Apologies I take your point but I would say given the stats that every match day is one of those days where conceding points is concerned and Friday was an off the scale one of those days. Generally competitive, maybe, but depends what you mean by that, in Europe, we are not in any way competitive, in the league I would say we are not in terms of winning the league.
I think next season’s squad so far looks potentially weaker and in my view money being spent in the wrong areas. I hear of management both playing and non playing getting riled when things are questioned at forums. I hear the same excuses trotted out after nearly every defeat and yet nothing changes.
I could forgive all this as I have before if I felt that the club was moving in the right direction but I don’t think it is. My main fear is that when relegation is abolished which seems inevitable, then all that will be important is the club with its now various interests breaks even and fat salaries are taken.
We have already seen this in Premiership football, although of course the sums are way higher. Some clubs are vanity projects for the super rich or are used for sports washing, they want to win. Others, with less resources, their only target is to do enough stay in the league to keep the riches flowing in. There are plenty of clubs there who would love ring fencing too if they could get away with it.
Competitiveness in the league depends on it being a level playing field. It’s not. Saints are a well run club. But they are competing in the age of the sugar daddy. Those operating that model are winning trophies but exist on the whim of an individual.
Quote:Shugs
Competitiveness in the league depends on it being a level playing field. It’s not. Saints are a well run club. But they are competing in the age of the sugar daddy. Those operating that model are winning trophies but exist on the whim of an individual.
I agree with nearly all that, the problems we all have is that a level playing field in this league means when we enter Europe it is anything but. That’s not a criticism of the Saints or any other club, we simply don’t have anything like enough money.
As for Saints being a well run club. It is in that it appears to be run sustainably, the only question I have is to the allocation of the funds that the club has. That may produce problems of its own if results at home go the way of away results. We’ll see.
I don't think the main issue here is how much Saints pay the players. The points scored this season shows there are good players. Saints record in the league is 8 up and 8 down which also shows Saints CAN play. At times.
Some teams, I'm sure, pay more have have more good players. But this was something else.
The problem Friday, in my opinion, is the players clearly couldn't/wouldn't tackle (half of tackling is want-to). And there didn't seem to be any defensive structure to speak of. In addition, this was a day when the attack didn't come for the coach ride either. For me, the most disappointing aspect is it seemed the players quit when the game got out of control in garbage time near the end.
So, I think the team has to explain this one. And give reason to believe it really was an anomaly.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:05:21:14:44 by Saint Gordo.
Some teams, I'm sure, pay more have have more good players. But this was something else.
The problem Friday, in my opinion, is the players clearly couldn't/wouldn't tackle (half of tackling is want-to). And there didn't seem to be any defensive structure to speak of. In addition, this was a day when the attack didn't come for the coach ride either. For me, the most disappointing aspect is it seemed the players quit when the game got out of control in garbage time near the end.
So, I think the team has to explain this one. And give reason to believe it really was an anomaly.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:03:05:21:14:44 by Saint Gordo.
Saints problem is they are playing to a plan that would have worked 4/5 years ago when it was developed as teams played with more caution because of relegation.
It just doesn’t work anymore, the whole truck it up the middle game plan and maul it over the line days are gone, we arguably could have got away with a balls defence in those days as our running game would have been enough, now everyone’s chucking it about like we do, difference is, they altered their defence and we’re left with huge holes that teams are just running through
It just doesn’t work anymore, the whole truck it up the middle game plan and maul it over the line days are gone, we arguably could have got away with a balls defence in those days as our running game would have been enough, now everyone’s chucking it about like we do, difference is, they altered their defence and we’re left with huge holes that teams are just running through
Quote:Saint Ted
Saints problem is they are playing to a plan that would have worked 4/5 years ago when it was developed as teams played with more caution because of relegation.
It just doesn’t work anymore, the whole truck it up the middle game plan and maul it over the line days are gone, we arguably could have got away with a balls defence in those days as our running game would have been enough, now everyone’s chucking it about like we do, difference is, they altered their defence and we’re left with huge holes that teams are just running through
I am not sure it worked any better four or five years ago to be honest. In that time we have always had the ability to really put away a side when we have a good day but always been prone to getting a hammering when we have a bad day or the opposition have a good day.
Our basics have been poor for a long while now. The only difference is we are trying to fix it with a very inexperienced set of coaches and players.
Friday night apart we actually look better this season than the last few especially given the experience of the coaches and squad.
Good summary
I would also add that our defensive line is very passive
We are letting the ball carrier make far too many yards after first contact
The line needs to be held particularly with our forwards being on the front foot when going into contact
The yards made after first contact by Bristol was embarrassing
Every club has a bad day
But allowing the opposition to dominate so easily is just not acceptable
I would also add that our defensive line is very passive
We are letting the ball carrier make far too many yards after first contact
The line needs to be held particularly with our forwards being on the front foot when going into contact
The yards made after first contact by Bristol was embarrassing
Every club has a bad day
But allowing the opposition to dominate so easily is just not acceptable
Quote:St. Andy
I agree with nearly all that, the problems we all have is that a level playing field in this league means when we enter Europe it is anything but. That’s not a criticism of the Saints or any other club, we simply don’t have anything like enough money
The French cap is dropping below 10M Euros next year. If that's a fixed amount with no credits or marquees etc, that's just over £8M. If our cap returns to 6.4M, that's £7M plus a marquee for any side with 12 or more academy graduates. Unless I'm missing something, the gulf in quality we've seen in the past shouldn't be an issue in future. However, I doubt Saints and over half of the other Prem sides are in a position to spend over £7 million. I'm assuming Sarries, Bath, Sale and Bristol may be the only ones with that capacity?
Quote:ajackQuote:Saint Ted
Saints problem is they are playing to a plan that would have worked 4/5 years ago when it was developed as teams played with more caution because of relegation.
It just doesn’t work anymore, the whole truck it up the middle game plan and maul it over the line days are gone, we arguably could have got away with a balls defence in those days as our running game would have been enough, now everyone’s chucking it about like we do, difference is, they altered their defence and we’re left with huge holes that teams are just running through
I am not sure it worked any better four or five years ago to be honest. In that time we have always had the ability to really put away a side when we have a good day but always been prone to getting a hammering when we have a bad day or the opposition have a good day.
Our basics have been poor for a long while now. The only difference is we are trying to fix it with a very inexperienced set of coaches and players.
Friday night apart we actually look better this season than the last few especially given the experience of the coaches and squad.
It kind of did work at the start of the Boyd era, we were flying high and went from 9th the year before Boyd joined to 4th the next season, pre-covid we were 3rd? Then it all went wrong with the split of the squad, followed by now three seasons of inconsistant results, the difference in that period and the inconsistant period, once Dickens left we seem to have lost any consistancy.
Quote:Saint TedQuote:ajackQuote:Saint Ted
Saints problem is they are playing to a plan that would have worked 4/5 years ago when it was developed as teams played with more caution because of relegation.
It just doesn’t work anymore, the whole truck it up the middle game plan and maul it over the line days are gone, we arguably could have got away with a balls defence in those days as our running game would have been enough, now everyone’s chucking it about like we do, difference is, they altered their defence and we’re left with huge holes that teams are just running through
I am not sure it worked any better four or five years ago to be honest. In that time we have always had the ability to really put away a side when we have a good day but always been prone to getting a hammering when we have a bad day or the opposition have a good day.
Our basics have been poor for a long while now. The only difference is we are trying to fix it with a very inexperienced set of coaches and players.
Friday night apart we actually look better this season than the last few especially given the experience of the coaches and squad.
It kind of did work at the start of the Boyd era, we were flying high and went from 9th the year before Boyd joined to 4th the next season, pre-covid we were 3rd? Then it all went wrong with the split of the squad, followed by now three seasons of inconsistant results, the difference in that period and the inconsistant period, once Dickens left we seem to have lost any consistancy.
Okay we seem to be looking at the same thing and coming to different conclusions. Under Boyd in the first season we had 50% win ration, it then went 36%, 50% and 54% so I am not seeing any real difference in consistency over our current 50%, in fact 4-5 years ago it was 43% so slightly less.
Quins won the league with the worst defence statistically so don't lose hope!
I honestly thought it would be a lot tighter on Friday. Smith, Hutch & Dingwall is a class midfield, Collins has been doing it in the Prem for years and Skosan was hot last season.
Add in Coles (who I know went off), Moon, Matavesi with Crus, Waller & Grayson on the bench and I thought it would be tough.
We (Bris) have been so bad for 20 months, no one had any confidence it would change.
I'd say Northampton aren't in a bad state and Friday was a perfect storm, every Bris player, including the Bench, suddenly hit theor straps together, whilst the missing starters for you (though we still have a couple as well) combined with what looked like a bit of a mental melt down led to that result.
That said, some players really went to war for the shirt, Graham, Braley, Collins. Are there some things to be concerned about? Yes is a result and performance like this a one off? Yes.
I'd happily back you guys to beat Bath and get back on track.
I honestly thought it would be a lot tighter on Friday. Smith, Hutch & Dingwall is a class midfield, Collins has been doing it in the Prem for years and Skosan was hot last season.
Add in Coles (who I know went off), Moon, Matavesi with Crus, Waller & Grayson on the bench and I thought it would be tough.
We (Bris) have been so bad for 20 months, no one had any confidence it would change.
I'd say Northampton aren't in a bad state and Friday was a perfect storm, every Bris player, including the Bench, suddenly hit theor straps together, whilst the missing starters for you (though we still have a couple as well) combined with what looked like a bit of a mental melt down led to that result.
That said, some players really went to war for the shirt, Graham, Braley, Collins. Are there some things to be concerned about? Yes is a result and performance like this a one off? Yes.
I'd happily back you guys to beat Bath and get back on track.
I don’t, it’s the worst performance I have seen from a saints team in 40’years. Shows that beating Sale and Gloucester was just paper over the cracks. We were toothless, poor, clueless, embarrassing, not up for it and worse not fit to wear the shirt. I was there and trust me they were worse than the score line showed. Why Dowson played Matevesi when he hasn’t played for weeks, why drop Grayson when Smith is clearly not fit. The coaches and players look out of their depth and we have the worst defence record in the premiership history
Enough is enough. We can’t Win every game but at least put up a fight, grit we were woeful and embarrassing. We turn up with that mindset and bath will score 70 against us.
Poor and not fit to wear the shirt end of
Enough is enough. We can’t Win every game but at least put up a fight, grit we were woeful and embarrassing. We turn up with that mindset and bath will score 70 against us.
Poor and not fit to wear the shirt end of
Quote:I think passive rather understates what we saw. Passive, perhaps, at the start, but that turned into no-want-to. This wasn't about structure because they didn't put in the effort to have a structure. Bristol tore us up because it looked like we barely tried, especially in the 2nd half. Gawd, this is probably the most damning this I have ever written about Saints ever.Deesaint
Good summary
I would also add that our defensive line is very passive
We are letting the ball carrier make far too many yards after first contact
The line needs to be held particularly with our forwards being on the front foot when going into contact
The yards made after first contact by Bristol was embarrassing
Every club has a bad day
But allowing the opposition to dominate so easily is just not acceptable
I have given them the benefit of doubt up to now but I do question that other than Vesty are any of the coaches up to it?
High quality experienced coaches can develop and nurture less established players but the club are doing coaching on the cheap. Is this why we don’t see some players kick on?
They appear also to a degree to be doing players on the cheap as I think using the term “paying up to the cap” as opposed to “paying the full cap” says a great deal.
I believe you could have either players on the cheap or coaches on the cheap but not both together. Ideally you need a balance which we don’t have.
High quality experienced coaches can develop and nurture less established players but the club are doing coaching on the cheap. Is this why we don’t see some players kick on?
They appear also to a degree to be doing players on the cheap as I think using the term “paying up to the cap” as opposed to “paying the full cap” says a great deal.
I believe you could have either players on the cheap or coaches on the cheap but not both together. Ideally you need a balance which we don’t have.
Quote:Brackleysaint
I have given them the benefit of doubt up to now but I do question that other than Vesty are any of the coaches up to it?
High quality experienced coaches can develop and nurture less established players but the club are doing coaching on the cheap. Is this why we don’t see some players kick on?
They appear also to a degree to be doing players on the cheap as I think using the term “paying up to the cap” as opposed to “paying the full cap” says a great deal.
I believe you could have either players on the cheap or coaches on the cheap but not both together. Ideally you need a balance which we don’t have.
But when we had Boyd and experienced and by everything I saw an expensive coach and players like Franks, Hartley and Biggar who were all around 100 cap internationals, two were international captains and one a double world cup winner we were no better than we are now.
If you go with inexperienced coaches or players then obviously they will be learning as they go along, but they should improve and it gives foundations to build a squad / team from.
Quote:ajack
But when we had Boyd and experienced and by everything I saw an expensive coach and players like Franks, Hartley and Biggar who were all around 100 cap internationals, two were international captains and one a double world cup winner we were no better than we are now.
Boyd experienced yes but not in the Premiership and northern hemisphere club rugby, therefore you could argue not that right experience. Also very little experience of winning.
Unless I am wrong Hartley rarely available under Boyd and Franks see above.
Quote:AwaywinQuote:ajack
But when we had Boyd and experienced and by everything I saw an expensive coach and players like Franks, Hartley and Biggar who were all around 100 cap internationals, two were international captains and one a double world cup winner we were no better than we are now.
Boyd experienced yes but not in the Premiership and northern hemisphere club rugby, therefore you could argue not that right experience. Also very little experience of winning.
Unless I am wrong Hartley rarely available under Boyd and Franks see above.
So even ignoring the fact we are probably not in a position to buy out most people who exactly is experienced in winning anything in the premiership or even Northern hemisphere rugby that would want to come here?
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