Northampton Saints
Saints v Wasps 09th October 2022 - Teams Up
By Saint Ted
October 7 2022
This is the Wasps v Saints match thread
Who: Wasps v Northampton Saints
When: Sunday 9nd October 2022 15:00
Where: Coventry Building Society Arena
Tickets: Direct from Wasps
Watch on: BT Sport 1
Match Day Info: Wasps Guide
News from the club: O'ffy full story
Referee: Adam Leal
Assistant Referees: Andrew Jackson and John Meredith
No.4: Shane Lewis
TMO: Claire Hodnett
| Northampton Saints | Wasps | |
| George Furbank | 15 | Jacob Umaga |
| Tommy Freeman | 14 | Paolo Odogwu |
| Matt Proctor | 13 | Burger Odendaal |
| Fraser Dingwall | 12 | Ryan Mills |
| Ollie Sleightholme | 11 | Josh Bassett |
| Dan Biggar | 10 | Charlie Atkinson |
| Alex Mitchell | 9 | Dan Robson |
| Alex Waller | 1 | Robin Hislop |
| Sam Matavesi | 2 | Gabriel Oghre |
| Paul Hill | 3 | Vincent Koch |
| Lukhan Salakaia-Loto | 4 | Joe Launchbury (c) |
| Alex Moon | 5 | Kiran McDonald |
| Alex Coles | 6 | Nizaam Carr |
| Lewis Ludlam (c) | 7 | Jack Willis |
| Sam Graham | 8 | Tom Willis |
| Replacements: | ||
| Robbie Smith | 16 | Dan Frost |
| Ethan Waller | 17 | Rodrigo Martinez |
| Alfie Petch | 18 | John Ryan |
| David Ribbans | 19 | Tim Cardall |
| Juarno Augustus | 20 | Ben Morris |
| Tom James | 21 | Will Porter |
| Rory Hutchinson | 22 | Will Haydon-Wood |
| Courtnall Skosan | 23 | Immanuel Feyi-Waboso |
Not considered for selection:
Matthew Arden, Callum Burns, James Fish, Joseph Gaffan, Mike Haywood, Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi, Courtney Lawes, and Karl Wilkins.
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StumbleuponSaints v Wasps 09th October 2022 - Teams Up
Discussion started by Marching On , 07/10/2022 12:05
Marching On
07/10/2022 12:05
07/10/2022 12:05
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:15:09:31:19 by Saint Ted.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:15:09:31:19 by Saint Ted.
That looks a very strong 23 for Saints, hopefully we’ll benefit from the impetus and cohesion the bench should provide
Wasps looks strong with Koch, Launchbury and Willis. We’ll need to counter those threats. We do seem to have the edge in the backs though providing we don’t give Odogwu space to pin-ball through our defence!
Wasps looks strong with Koch, Launchbury and Willis. We’ll need to counter those threats. We do seem to have the edge in the backs though providing we don’t give Odogwu space to pin-ball through our defence!
Has to be a game to target an away win. Wasps haven’t looked convincing this season. Recruitment freeze with their finances shows in their line up.
Quote:craig84
I would like to see Nansen, Joel Matavesi and Braley in the 23.
Who would you take out to accommodate them?
That's a pretty heavy second row I think, should help the front row with some grunt from behind!
I'm a fan of Hutch but we look a little more cohesive with Proctor on the field somehow, he's a little more composed and happier to slow it down a little or take contact rather than having to make the break on the first attempt.
I'm a fan of Hutch but we look a little more cohesive with Proctor on the field somehow, he's a little more composed and happier to slow it down a little or take contact rather than having to make the break on the first attempt.
Quote:LeicesterSaint
That's a pretty heavy second row I think, should help the front row with some grunt from behind!
.
And more grunt on the bench.
Not sure why Juarno isn't starting and Manny deserves a week off. This will be Koch's first game for Wasps.
Quote:
craig84
I would like to see Nansen, Joel Matavesi and Braley in the 23.
Who would you take out to accommodate them?
Saint Maul i would take out Moon with Ribeye starting and Nansen on the bench, James and Braley straight swap on the bench, and Dingwall straight swap with Matavesi.
craig84
I would like to see Nansen, Joel Matavesi and Braley in the 23.
Who would you take out to accommodate them?
Saint Maul i would take out Moon with Ribeye starting and Nansen on the bench, James and Braley straight swap on the bench, and Dingwall straight swap with Matavesi.
Quote:craig84
Quote:
craig84
I would like to see Nansen, Joel Matavesi and Braley in the 23.
Who would you take out to accommodate them?
Saint Maul i would take out Moon with Ribeye starting and Nansen on the bench, James and Braley straight swap on the bench, and Dingwall straight swap with Matavesi.
Boyd tended to favour Nansen over Moon last season. Dowse seems to prefer Moon so far. Moon offers bulk but does he always make the most of his size? Nansen carries better. Not the best at lineout.
I’m also surprised Brayley hasn’t got more game time. He looked good for Italy in the 6 Nations. The way our 9s play is crucial to our running game. My guess is he is still adjusting to this. I suspect a bit like Augustus not getting starts last year at the beginning of the season he’ll start getting game time soon enough. It would be weird to sign an international who gives us their international career and then not play him. Equally James plays the style our coaches wants well. But there are times when I wish he’d control the game a bit better at crucial moments rather than always tempo tempo tempo.
Dingwall has made the England squad and is one of our key leaders so a big call to suggest Matavesi. Not the biggest where Matavesi offers more bulk and can cover 10. But Matavesi, whilst decent squad cover, didn’t convince at Bath, for me. He hasn’t made a Premiership match day 23 for us yet to my memory. What have you seen that jumps Matavesi above Dingwall? Of the 3 suggestions that’s the one that surprised me the most.
Painter initially picked for Wednesday but not on the teamsheet on the day. No sign of him for tomorrow and not on the sick list.
[quote Saint Maul][quote craig84]
But Matavesi, whilst decent squad cover, didn’t convince at Bath,
Probably because he didn’t play for Bath. Wrong Matavesi.
But Matavesi, whilst decent squad cover, didn’t convince at Bath,
Probably because he didn’t play for Bath. Wrong Matavesi.
St Maul i honestly suprised myself in a way because im a big fan of Dingers, but Matavesi offers more in relation to link up play with his offloading, his power breaking tackles and ability to draw in an extra defender to cover him/bring him down.
He showed this against Saracens in the cup game - i know they were Sarries kids mostly, but you can only play against what is infront of you and i thought he played really well and showed what we are lacking in our backline. (in my opinion)
The highlights of that game are worth watching and he was involved in a few tries.
Dingers for me is an outside centre and in my opinion Proctor edges him for that position and on the bench i would have Hutch for his creativity and distribution.
He showed this against Saracens in the cup game - i know they were Sarries kids mostly, but you can only play against what is infront of you and i thought he played really well and showed what we are lacking in our backline. (in my opinion)
The highlights of that game are worth watching and he was involved in a few tries.
Dingers for me is an outside centre and in my opinion Proctor edges him for that position and on the bench i would have Hutch for his creativity and distribution.
I think for this group of games, up to next week, those guys mentioned have been given a specific task and that is in the prem cup. Once that is out of the way for a period, we will then see them starting to make appearances in the league.
Interesting to compare Dingers with Matavesi When the later has only played a handful of games?
Dingwall every day for me.. very clever player, reads the game exceptionally well for his age
Quote:craig84
St Maul i honestly suprised myself in a way because im a big fan of Dingers, but Matavesi offers more in relation to link up play with his offloading, his power breaking tackles and ability to draw in an extra defender to cover him/bring him down.
He showed this against Saracens in the cup game - i know they were Sarries kids mostly, but you can only play against what is infront of you and i thought he played really well and showed what we are lacking in our backline. (in my opinion)
The highlights of that game are worth watching and he was involved in a few tries.
Dingers for me is an outside centre and in my opinion Proctor edges him for that position and on the bench i would have Hutch for his creativity and distribution.
My mistake. I thought our Matavesi played for Bath.
Having watched the Sarries game highlights my take was it was a game Sarries were not taking seriously so I’d be cautious drawing too strong conclusions from it. Their defence was very un-Saracen-like. Sarries are bottom of their pool having played 2 and lost 2.
I’m all for giving fringe players the opportunity to show what they can do. But it looks like Matavesi is a long way down the pecking order with Dingwall, Proctor, Hutchinson and Litchfield all making Premiership game match day 23s this and last season since Matavesi signed and Matavesi hasn’t made it once. But I’ll look out for him more closely now given how highly you’ve rated him. Cheers.
For me Dingers is not only a good player but also an intelligent one and that cannot always be said….for me he has the ability to think on his feet which is a great asset.
Quote:Saint MaulQuote:Having watched the Sarries game highlights my take was it was a game Sarries were not taking seriously so I’d be cautious drawing too strong conclusions from it. Their defence was very un-Saracen-like. Sarries are bottom of their pool having played 2 and lost 2.craig84
The highlights of that game are worth watching and he was involved in a few tries.
.
.
The full match is available, so I wouldn't judge the sarries performance on the highlights.
Chris Hoddle im not comparing Dingers and Matavesi per say, was just saying the difference between their games/the way they play.
He may have only played a few games here but ive seen him play in the tough league below and for England age group.
St Maul Matavesi also has experience at playing fly half and has a big boot on him which is an added bonus, especially when we are in scramble defense and just need to clear it.
My favourite Saints centre pairing was Downey and Clarke, they complemented eachothers games brilliantly and think that formula works best for the style of rugby we play - all only my opinion of course.
Dingwall is a constant 8/10 performer and a true class operator, but losing 3 out of 4 games and shipping points the way we are is not good enough for us, and means looking at the squad of players and maybe making a tweak?
He may have only played a few games here but ive seen him play in the tough league below and for England age group.
St Maul Matavesi also has experience at playing fly half and has a big boot on him which is an added bonus, especially when we are in scramble defense and just need to clear it.
My favourite Saints centre pairing was Downey and Clarke, they complemented eachothers games brilliantly and think that formula works best for the style of rugby we play - all only my opinion of course.
Dingwall is a constant 8/10 performer and a true class operator, but losing 3 out of 4 games and shipping points the way we are is not good enough for us, and means looking at the squad of players and maybe making a tweak?
I think what I’ve liked particularly about this debate on Dingwall and Matavesi is it has all been very civilised; which this forum hasn’t always been in recent times. Different perspectives explained and none of the your view is different from mine so you must be wrong. It’s always good to hear alternative views that are well reasoned and gets me challenging my assumptions. Just what a good fan forum should be for me. Cheers.
Well
We’ve given away the normal 2 tries in the first 20
Let’s see what we can do now
We’ve given away the normal 2 tries in the first 20
Let’s see what we can do now
That’s because we are under pressure, making errors and poor decisions. Soft from us so far
I'll take going in only 7 down after that half. Discipline has to be better if we want to win this....
Some of the penalties were from offences that normally go unnoticed. Getting the try before half-time is a lifeline. We need to calm down and build pressure ourselves - possession and territory is everything. COYS.
Hopefully the half time talk will put some fire in the belly
Particularly the forwards
Need more aggression and speed / loosing the breakdown
Hope Vass is taking notes, still some sloppy defence
But all to play for
Start getting some quick ball and you never know
Particularly the forwards
Need more aggression and speed / loosing the breakdown
Hope Vass is taking notes, still some sloppy defence
But all to play for
Start getting some quick ball and you never know
I like Alex Coles he's a good player and took his try well, but i think we need a bit more aggression, a stronger carrier and tackler in at 6 at the moment - maybe bring on Augustus for Coles and move Graham to 6?
The open field might be good for Hutch soon?
The open field might be good for Hutch soon?
Would like to see Ribbans and Augustus on soon. Forwards have been too passive at times
The ref is being very lenient with us we really need to sort our discipline out. We should have the stronger bench especially with them losing two before kick off and one early.
Our attacking play seems flat without Hutch. As good as they are, Dingwall and Proctor just don't provide that spark.
I've barely heard Graham's name mentioned and this could be an ideal a great time to bring Augustus on.
Coles doesn't seem to as on it as he has been. I'd move Salakia Loto to 6, Ribbans alongside Moon the Augustus at 8. Oh and Hutch on
I've barely heard Graham's name mentioned and this could be an ideal a great time to bring Augustus on.
Coles doesn't seem to as on it as he has been. I'd move Salakia Loto to 6, Ribbans alongside Moon the Augustus at 8. Oh and Hutch on
Discipline terribad. Still 7 points in it after being that bad is a good if we can start turning it on. Ribbans for Moon for me for an injection of effort.
I look forward to seeing a second row of Ribeye and Salakaia-Loto, i think thats the second row for me moving forward.
I think Wasps want it rather more
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:09:16:26:11 by Aberavon Wizard.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:09:16:26:11 by Aberavon Wizard.
Quote:rugbymel
Defence just so poor.
Suggests there is an area that is not poor - I'm missing it!
Why do our forwards keep running into Willis? The outcome is the same every time
It's like we weren't aware that Jack Willis is quite good at the breakdown
Quote:TimperleySaint
I just want to scream!
I just did! When Courtnall dotted the ball down!
Come on guys
Never in doubt
So much more go forward with ribeye and truckie
Never in doubt
So much more go forward with ribeye and truckie
Quote:SaintsAsh
Discipline terribad. Still 7 points in it after being that bad is a good if we can start turning it on. Ribbans for Moon for me for an injection of effort.
Terribad? New word, but bang on the money!
Yep that was a shocker. Like the quins game. How we managed to get 2 points from that one and 5 from today I have no idea.
We looked completely second best to a wasps side shorn of their springbok, their big no 8, talisman lock and scrum half off at half time, a red card...
I have no idea why we were doing the things we were doing. Our discipline and decision making is shocking unless we're breaking forward in broken play when suddenly we look like world beaters!
We looked completely second best to a wasps side shorn of their springbok, their big no 8, talisman lock and scrum half off at half time, a red card...
I have no idea why we were doing the things we were doing. Our discipline and decision making is shocking unless we're breaking forward in broken play when suddenly we look like world beaters!
Just said that to Mrs195. Our worst performance but our best result. Thought Sam did pretty well and the bench were very good.
With Ribbans and Augustus came power and aggression!
That bit of extra bite in the carry that drags the extra defenders in to stop them gives us the chance to go wider with a possible overlap/numerical advantage, also helps making the extra hard yards to give Mitchell better positions to work in.
I have to say the battle between Ludlam and Willis was great to watch, not against eachother per say but their work at the breakdown and carrying abilities - great news for England 👍
That bit of extra bite in the carry that drags the extra defenders in to stop them gives us the chance to go wider with a possible overlap/numerical advantage, also helps making the extra hard yards to give Mitchell better positions to work in.
I have to say the battle between Ludlam and Willis was great to watch, not against eachother per say but their work at the breakdown and carrying abilities - great news for England 👍
Jack Willis really is a pain! If Wasps go the way of Worcester, we have to try and pick him up... Even if it's just so he can't play against us!
Certainly take the win after a generally dire performance. Dowson’s reaction, or lack of, summed it up.
Plus points I’d say would be the restarts both ours and theirs. We seemed to win plenty. Scrum did well overall and obviously some nice finishes. Most other facets were second best. Serious concerns on defence and discipline, high error count.
Plus points I’d say would be the restarts both ours and theirs. We seemed to win plenty. Scrum did well overall and obviously some nice finishes. Most other facets were second best. Serious concerns on defence and discipline, high error count.
As a Wasp congrats to your team, played the full 80, and despite our self inflicted wounds and loss of discipline, intensity and shape we cannot begrudge the result.
Looking at both teams neither will be challenging top 4 this season as both of us have too many weaknesses. But my hope is that my club survives so we go toe to toe once again.
Good luck for the rest of the season.
Chris
Once a Wasp ALWAY a Wasp.
Looking at both teams neither will be challenging top 4 this season as both of us have too many weaknesses. But my hope is that my club survives so we go toe to toe once again.
Good luck for the rest of the season.
Chris
Once a Wasp ALWAY a Wasp.
Quote:TimperleySaint
Yep that was a shocker. Like the quins game. How we managed to get 2 points from that one and 5 from today I have no idea.
We looked completely second best to a wasps side shorn of their springbok, their big no 8, talisman lock and scrum half off at half time, a red card...
I have no idea why we were doing the things we were doing. Our discipline and decision making is shocking unless we're breaking forward in broken play when suddenly we look like world beaters!
We didn’t look second best, Wasps just got the bounce of the ball (Atkinsons try for one) and some very pedantic decisions (offside on attack?)?went their way in the first hour.
Quote:craig84
With Ribbans and Augustus came power and aggression!
That bit of extra bite in the carry that drags the extra defenders in to stop them gives us the chance to go wider with a possible overlap/numerical advantage, also helps making the extra hard yards to give Mitchell better positions to work in.
I have to say the battle between Ludlam and Willis was great to watch, not against eachother per say but their work at the breakdown and carrying abilities - great news for England 👍
Ribbans is frustrating and almost as worrying as AWaller as a penalty machine. Coming on against a tiring team is ideal for him. Furbs was MOTM for me, great touches and stepped up again at 10.
Quote:wombles222
As a Wasp congrats to your team, played the full 80, and despite our self inflicted wounds and loss of discipline, intensity and shape we cannot begrudge the result.
Looking at both teams neither will be challenging top 4 this season as both of us have too many weaknesses. But my hope is that my club survives so we go toe to toe once again.
Good luck for the rest of the season.
Chris
Once a Wasp ALWAY a Wasp.
I hope Wasps get a backer and settle down a bit. I think you have a very good team, but like Saints not playing to potential. Saints discipline has long been an Achillies heal.
Quote:wombles222
As a Wasp congrats to your team, played the full 80, and despite our self inflicted wounds and loss of discipline, intensity and shape we cannot begrudge the result.
Looking at both teams neither will be challenging top 4 this season as both of us have too many weaknesses. But my hope is that my club survives so we go toe to toe once again.
Good luck for the rest of the season.
Chris
Once a Wasp ALWAY a Wasp.
Good luck to you
Couldn’t do with loosing you guys as well
Dancing around our lounge at he end, however when will we learn about the penalty count and breakdown worst being the figures in the Prem and making it even worse today, maybe this week in training coming up with a strategy to not take it into contact without aggression and support and stay legal, however a very happy HammerSaint, as the Irons also managed to beat the mighty Fulham!!
we didn't look particularly interested for a big chunk of time, we were getting well and truly Willis'd and couldn't really get a foothold. thought the ref was nitpicking a bit with us at times but overall had a good game. Red card crucial and replacements made an impact, Hutchinson, Augustus & Ribbans all did well. We just for some reason didn't seem quite at the races for most of that game and snatched a win from the jaws of defeat. So a good win and a BP, so onto next week
Well done Courtnall , the work he must have put in to be that good in the air , brave catch under pressure
cut out the dumb penalties and we're somewhere approaching acceptability
Quote:Aberavon Wizard
Take it, move on but the penalty count never seems to improve.
Agreed to an extent.
I hope they don't just move on though as the majority of the game was a shambles of a performance.
It need reviewing in very fine detail in the hope that we don't continue to make the same dumb mistakes with the same dumb decisions.
It's great to get a win and showed good heart but so often we see our best Rugby when it's either too late (or almost).
Defence is an issue still and we switch off far too often.
That was a great result considering just how poorly we played. As I tend to say when we lose but have played well. Judge the performance not the result.
The result shouldn’t mask that we haven’t been playing well this season. And this is whilst the ground is still firm and suits our style.
The result shouldn’t mask that we haven’t been playing well this season. And this is whilst the ground is still firm and suits our style.
Relegation performance for 70 minutes and Heineken cup winning performance for the rest. Incredible to get a win.
There is a clear difference between our best and our squad players. Ribbans and Augustus had that extra physicality and ‘edge
I think we need to appreciate the difference between a premiership cup level, a squad player and a player that get you top 4 in the premiership.
The chasm is big.
There is a clear difference between our best and our squad players. Ribbans and Augustus had that extra physicality and ‘edge
I think we need to appreciate the difference between a premiership cup level, a squad player and a player that get you top 4 in the premiership.
The chasm is big.
I think it’s far too easy to see our failings and not give the opposition some credit. The prem is the toughest league and any team away from home presents a significant challenge. Wasps were well up for the game and despite losing Koch before kick-off fielded some very good players. The stats show we were very evenly matched sides for territory, possession, carries, passes, kicks, turnovers and line outs. We gave away more penalties and we missed more tackles, however we made more clean breaks and tackles. So as ever there are work-ons. We did at least hold our own in the scrum!
However, we have good strength in depth in the squad, as seen in the prem cup match. Our bench was far stronger than Wasps and while they fell away we were able to call on the likes of Ribbans and Augustus to provide the impetus to deliver at the death. Several players look to have stepped up this season, especially Coles as others have mentioned, and Moon too in my view. We don’t want to flog our better players into mediocrity, we need to use our squad intelligently to get the best from it. I’m happy to take the win and move on.
However, we have good strength in depth in the squad, as seen in the prem cup match. Our bench was far stronger than Wasps and while they fell away we were able to call on the likes of Ribbans and Augustus to provide the impetus to deliver at the death. Several players look to have stepped up this season, especially Coles as others have mentioned, and Moon too in my view. We don’t want to flog our better players into mediocrity, we need to use our squad intelligently to get the best from it. I’m happy to take the win and move on.
Sir Hector that is a good summary and one I agree with. Added with some dumb penalties (that are in our control to resolve) and some curious calls (which are not in our control) I was pleased with yesterday.
I was pleased with the unemotional response from Dowson and I was pleased with the never say die attitude.
As you say there are work ons
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:11:08:00:56 by Trollman.
I was pleased with the unemotional response from Dowson and I was pleased with the never say die attitude.
As you say there are work ons
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:11:08:00:56 by Trollman.
Agree Sir Hector, a more balanced summary. I thought we attacked well throughout and got into some dangerous positions but were just not clinical enough in the first half. Good to see some smart captaincy taking 3pts to keep us in striking distance though. I remember games where we’d frustrate ourselves with multiple 5m line outs and no points. I also remember a good couple of seasons during which Saints would pass the ball from touch line to touch line with no discernible gain and relied heavily on the forwards and the boot to grind out the odd win. I prefer watching this heart-stopping rugby, big highs and deep lows. We could be top 4. Who knows.
Also shoutout to Robbie Smith for his beautiful flat pass to put Sleights through the hole and Tommy Freeman for his mighty miss pass to put Skosan away. I had assumed it was Hutchinson. Unbelievably skill and vision for a big wing to pull off!
Quote:+1..Sir Hector
I think it’s far too easy to see our failings and not give the opposition some credit. The prem is the toughest league and any team away from home presents a significant challenge. Wasps were well up for the game and despite losing Koch before kick-off fielded some very good players. The stats show we were very evenly matched sides for territory, possession, carries, passes, kicks, turnovers and line outs. We gave away more penalties and we missed more tackles, however we made more clean breaks and tackles. So as ever there are work-ons. We did at least hold our own in the scrum!
However, we have good strength in depth in the squad, as seen in the prem cup match. Our bench was far stronger than Wasps and while they fell away we were able to call on the likes of Ribbans and Augustus to provide the impetus to deliver at the death. Several players look to have stepped up this season, especially Coles as others have mentioned, and Moon too in my view. We don’t want to flog our better players into mediocrity, we need to use our squad intelligently to get the best from it. I’m happy to take the win and move on.
And we really don’t want to be peaking and playing our best rugby in October, churn results out to get us in the top 4 and a strong finish to the season
I think it was Dowson with the reserved response to the win Trollman - pretty sure Dawson is more of a Wasps fan these days!
I noted at the end of the Chron article, his ban doesn't start until he is fit to play again, I don't recall having seen that before
Quote:Saint Ted
I noted at the end of the Chron article, his ban doesn't start until he is fit to play again, I don't recall having seen that before
I have a vague recollection of hearing it once before, so assume it's been around for a while.
It is done when necessary, but I can only recall having heard of it a couple of times before - no idea who though!
In view of their suspension will the ban start when they are allowed to play? I assume its like at the end of the season when a scheduled break doesn't count, happened to Ribeye a couple of years ago.
I think losing Worcester and Wasps is an unmitigated disaster for Rugby in England. I think we need a dozen teams, or maybe more, in order to grow talent across the country. But we need to put the finances at the front and not just ow well a club did at a lower level. And finally we need to do something so many Wasps players and Worcester players can find a landing spot with the remaining clubs (which means the salary cap has to go up to accommodate these guys).
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