Northampton Saints
Saints v Tigers 11/02/22 Match Thread - Teams Up
By Saint Ted
February 10 2022
This is the Saints v Tigers match thread
Who:
Leicester Tigers v Northampton Saints
When:
Friday 11th February 2022 19:45
Where:
Mattioli Woods Welford Road
How do I watch:
BT Sports 1/BT Sports Ultimate
Tickets available from Tigers Website
Officials:
Referee: Matt Carley
Assistant referees: Jack Makepeace and Jamie Leahy
No.4: Harry Walbaum
TMO: Tom Foley
Teams:
Not considered for selection:
Matthew Arden, Emeka Atuanya, Tommy Freeman, Jake Garside, Oisín Heffernan, Lewis Ludlam, Alex Moon, Taqele Naiyaravoro, and Kayde Sylvester.
International Duty:
Dan Biggar (Wal), Ethan Grayson (Eng U20), George Hendy (Eng U20), Courtney Lawes (Eng), Tom Litchfield (Eng U20), and Tom Lockett (Eng U20).
Full storty on T'Offy
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StumbleuponSaints v Tigers 11/02/22 Match Thread - Teams Up
Discussion started by Marching On , 10/02/2022 12:15
Marching On
10/02/2022 12:15
10/02/2022 12:15
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:18:07:25:08 by Saint Ted.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:18:07:25:08 by Saint Ted.
Three former Saints on the Tigers bench, they like it spicy at Pooh Corner!
I wonder if we will be honest enough to admit we miss him, when JG finally gives up an unequal battle for the No. 10 shirt and moves on?
I'm not trolling here, genuinely interested - how is it unequal (presume you mean between Furbank and Grays)? They both get their chance to shine in training, Grays perhaps having an advantage there as he isn't away with England like Furbs is on occasion. Based on that and actual games played the coaches need to make a decision.
My memory of past games is a little clouded as they tend to be accompanied by a few beers but based on hazy recollection I can't remember either of them being the finished article in the games played so far. So I suppose the question is who can be, Furbank is good enough to have played for England but has played a lot more rugby at 15. Grayson has played a few times at 15 but is predominantly a 10 but so far hasn't interested EJ.
On a lighter note - odds on a Chris Ashton ten minute cameo off the bench in which he scores only to be binned shortly after? Or gets binned, come back on with a few minutes left and then scores?!
My memory of past games is a little clouded as they tend to be accompanied by a few beers but based on hazy recollection I can't remember either of them being the finished article in the games played so far. So I suppose the question is who can be, Furbank is good enough to have played for England but has played a lot more rugby at 15. Grayson has played a few times at 15 but is predominantly a 10 but so far hasn't interested EJ.
On a lighter note - odds on a Chris Ashton ten minute cameo off the bench in which he scores only to be binned shortly after? Or gets binned, come back on with a few minutes left and then scores?!
I just can't see how Furbank and 10 and Tuala at 15 is better than Grayson at 10 and Furbank at 15, that's the simple point of it for me.
Quote:Longers
I wonder if we will be honest enough to admit we miss him, when JG finally gives up an unequal battle for the No. 10 shirt and moves on?
It probably does feel like a bit of a kick in the teeth to Grayson. Furbank hasn't been around to train yet is still preferred. Whether right or wrong, the coaches clearly see Grayson as 3rd choice.
Grayson has a fan base on here. For whatever reason, fly half selection seems to generate strongly differing views. A bit like the Myler debate. The Rob Andrew v Stuart Barnes debate. The Smith v Farrell debate.
For me, if the game plan is a running game then Furbank's skill set is a better fit than Grayson. But if we were playing a Jim-style territorial game plan I'd pick Grayson.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:10:13:41:01 by Saint Maul.
Saints Coaches select favorite players regardless of performance. Long time since our coaches have had any accountability. Leicester are missing 6 players so we may have a chance. Can't be worse than the home fixture.
Quote:LeicesterSaint
I'm not trolling here, genuinely interested - how is it unequal (presume you mean between Furbank and Grays)? They both get their chance to shine in training, Grays perhaps having an advantage there as he isn't away with England like Furbs is on occasion. Based on that and actual games played the coaches need to make a decision.
My memory of past games is a little clouded as they tend to be accompanied by a few beers but based on hazy recollection I can't remember either of them being the finished article in the games played so far. So I suppose the question is who can be, Furbank is good enough to have played for England but has played a lot more rugby at 15. Grayson has played a few times at 15 but is predominantly a 10 but so far hasn't interested EJ.
On a lighter note - odds on a Chris Ashton ten minute cameo off the bench in which he scores only to be binned shortly after? Or gets binned, come back on with a few minutes left and then scores?!
I know you're not trolling.
I think JG has been given far less opportunity to play. And to show what he can do without the knowledge (belief?) that he will revert to water carrier the following week. Unlike George who if he cocks up at 10 tomorrow he'll be at 15 the following week.
I would agree that neither are the finished article. But whereas Furbank is - apparently - being given every opportunity, Grayson is not. IMO.
Is Furbank good enough to play for England? (At 15) Not yet. IMO. He is one of those "Eddie selections" in my eyes. As for playing him at 10 for England - no, no, no!
Ashton? In a way, I hope he does. I should love to see him have a happy end to his career. He did me no harm at all. And that combination of Youngs Courts and Ashton scoring against Australia is up there with Andy Hancock( I can think of no higher praise!)
It’s a bit like Smith or Farrell for England?
And tend to agree with Leicester Saint…. We don’t see it all do we and the coaches see more in them
And tend to agree with Leicester Saint…. We don’t see it all do we and the coaches see more in them
On the whole fly half thing, it is quite evident that Grayson is now third choice, he's really been hampered by not getting the game time that would have been critical for his development by not having wanderers fixtures and being a fly half, even when not in the squad will near enough always be a travelling sub so not available to get loaned out to Bedford.
If the coaches see Furbank as the successor to Dan, it makes sense that they start him tomorrow, as for not training with the squad, they all had last week off and I think the players were released from England Tuesday night, so he won't have missed out on that much.
I've said before, I think moving forward it's going to be Furbank at 10 with Freeman at 15, Sleights and Skosan on the wings and then take your pick between the centres, they all seem to slot in and out nicely.
Finally on this, it's a bit controversial and I mean no sleight by it, I do wonder sometimes if it would be so much of a debate on the Grayson/Furbank thing, if he wasn't a Grayson, are judgements being clouded on this?
If the coaches see Furbank as the successor to Dan, it makes sense that they start him tomorrow, as for not training with the squad, they all had last week off and I think the players were released from England Tuesday night, so he won't have missed out on that much.
I've said before, I think moving forward it's going to be Furbank at 10 with Freeman at 15, Sleights and Skosan on the wings and then take your pick between the centres, they all seem to slot in and out nicely.
Finally on this, it's a bit controversial and I mean no sleight by it, I do wonder sometimes if it would be so much of a debate on the Grayson/Furbank thing, if he wasn't a Grayson, are judgements being clouded on this?
I completely agree that Grayson must be frustrated by lack of game time and has almost certainly been held back by it over the last couple of seasons.
My question was just where the idea of unequal competition comes in - some have suggested coaches' favourites which personally I don't buy (Boyd may have had rose tinted specs with some of his old NZ players but surely judged all existing Saints players on merit when he arrived?). To me as much as I feel for Grays I think the coaching side either just feel Furbank is the better option for games now, or perhaps have one eye on the future as they see more potential there. Some have opined that EJ may be pushing for Furbank to play 10 but I can't see any prem club pandering to that and it isn't like England are desperate for a 10 with Smith, Ford and even Farrell.
Some interesting views though as always, thanks all!
My question was just where the idea of unequal competition comes in - some have suggested coaches' favourites which personally I don't buy (Boyd may have had rose tinted specs with some of his old NZ players but surely judged all existing Saints players on merit when he arrived?). To me as much as I feel for Grays I think the coaching side either just feel Furbank is the better option for games now, or perhaps have one eye on the future as they see more potential there. Some have opined that EJ may be pushing for Furbank to play 10 but I can't see any prem club pandering to that and it isn't like England are desperate for a 10 with Smith, Ford and even Farrell.
Some interesting views though as always, thanks all!
I think your coaches have the same lack of trust in youngsters that our old set had, we now have a ruck of 21 year olds and under regularly playing well in the matchday squad. Part of the reason I think we can win at home, pace and enthusiasm along with some old hardnuts, what's not to like?
Coaches are clearly backing Sleights and Skosan as wingers.
I'm not sure either have a point of difference. Skosan should be the finished article at 31 but shaky in defence and Sleights form has not been great for a long time with injuries. Reasonable to say if his father was not with the club, Coaches would not of given Sleights so many opportunities at his age with the long periods of absence.
I'm not sure either have a point of difference. Skosan should be the finished article at 31 but shaky in defence and Sleights form has not been great for a long time with injuries. Reasonable to say if his father was not with the club, Coaches would not of given Sleights so many opportunities at his age with the long periods of absence.
tigerburnie: Not sure your point about our coaches having lack of trust in youngsters is correct.
Dingwell 21 [Capt.]
Furbank 25
Grayson 24
Sleightholme 20
Freeman 20
Dingwell 21 [Capt.]
Furbank 25
Grayson 24
Sleightholme 20
Freeman 20
Someone last season came up with a stat that I cant remember, but was a surprising number of games for Grayson.
Excuse the hearsay and rumour, but I had the same perception as above, lacked game time required to develop, but on seeing that felt corrected that he had had plenty of opportunity to show what he could do/nail his 2nd choice place.
It did feel then that Furbank was getting picked ahead for (presumably) reasons we didn't see, training etc. etc.
But I cant see JG wanting to stay around as 3rd string fly half for us with the way we are set up.
We generally have Biggs as 1st choice with another player on the field that can move into the 10 slot, with utility* backs on the bench, so specialist JG dosn't get on the bench/field.
When Biggs is away, it should* be JGs slot to play, but clearly isn't in favour there, but agree, it dosn't look like GF is head and shoulders above JG when we have seen them play.
I wouldnt have been upset to see JG at 10, GF at 15 as the starting line up.
Ace has long blown hot/cold can be excellent, but also switched off.
Lets be honest, the Tigers team looks stronger, particularly when we include the subs, and particularly in the pack.
Could be a long day at the office, but, I live in hope...
Excuse the hearsay and rumour, but I had the same perception as above, lacked game time required to develop, but on seeing that felt corrected that he had had plenty of opportunity to show what he could do/nail his 2nd choice place.
It did feel then that Furbank was getting picked ahead for (presumably) reasons we didn't see, training etc. etc.
But I cant see JG wanting to stay around as 3rd string fly half for us with the way we are set up.
We generally have Biggs as 1st choice with another player on the field that can move into the 10 slot, with utility* backs on the bench, so specialist JG dosn't get on the bench/field.
When Biggs is away, it should* be JGs slot to play, but clearly isn't in favour there, but agree, it dosn't look like GF is head and shoulders above JG when we have seen them play.
I wouldnt have been upset to see JG at 10, GF at 15 as the starting line up.
Ace has long blown hot/cold can be excellent, but also switched off.
Lets be honest, the Tigers team looks stronger, particularly when we include the subs, and particularly in the pack.
Could be a long day at the office, but, I live in hope...
Quote:NottsSaint
Someone last season came up with a stat that I cant remember, but was a surprising number of games for Grayson.
Excuse the hearsay and rumour, but I had the same perception as above, lacked game time required to develop, but on seeing that felt corrected that he had had plenty of opportunity to show what he could do/nail his 2nd choice place.
That would be me, in the last two seasons Grayson started more matches at 10 than anyone else.
This season Dan has 12 at 10, James has 5 and George has 1 (would have been 2 if the Racing match wasn't postponed)
What makes things look worse is that James rarely makes the bench, twice this season, the perception being that Furbank is covering 10 and to an extent so is Hutch.
In the recesses of my mind, I seem to recall that JG had a bust up with one, or possibly more, of the coaches, since which time his name failed to appear on the team sheet.
Is my memory playing tricks ?
Is my memory playing tricks ?
Sleights has been really unlucky with injury recently but that aside he's one of the quickest out there, strong in defence and jackals like a back-rower! I just hope he can stay fit and get back to full form. I'm not sure Skosan is weak defensively as much as he's been left in a bad position a few times but he'll have his hands full with Nadolo (11 faces 14 on the wings right?).
Quote:Deesaint
In the recesses of my mind, I seem to recall that JG had a bust up with one, or possibly more, of the coaches, since which time his name failed to appear on the team sheet.
Is my memory playing tricks ?
I don't think it was that severe, he took some time away from the squad to get his head straight, I feel like this was around the time he got subbed for Mallinder, middle of last season I think, but it he has played multiple times since then
I feel for any young 10 learning their craft behind this sub standard pack with a 9 still learning his own craft. Even Dan Biggar looks ordinary sometimes for Saints. I don’t see the need to pick sides, I agree James gets more local support due to his lineage. He’s done quite well in some games but hasn’t stood out or played in a way that demands being picked. Chris Boyd and Eddie Jones should know what makes a good 10 and we don’t get to see what these players are like as personalities in and around the team, the work ethic, leadership skills and all the other non-matchday playing stuff. Fingers crossed George gets a good enough platform tomorrow, Freddie Burns can go off the boil and I’m surprised Heggarty isn’t starting at 10.
If at 24 years of age you are third choice and one of those ahead of you is a 25 year old with very little experience in that position it is probably time to look at your position within the current set up.
Things may change when Boyd leaves I have no idea, but at 24 you are not some young kid. He has had chances to prove himself and clearly the current coaches don't see him as the right fit for what they are trying to achieve. Probably best he moves on.
Things may change when Boyd leaves I have no idea, but at 24 you are not some young kid. He has had chances to prove himself and clearly the current coaches don't see him as the right fit for what they are trying to achieve. Probably best he moves on.
Just by way of comparison of league starts at 10 across other teams (I've only included ones where the same 10 has been mainly available so as not to scew things).
Biggar - 10/13
Ford - 12/14
Gopperth - 13/14
Hastings - 13/14
Jackson - 13/14
Sheedy - 13/13
Simmonds - 13/14
Lozowski - 14/14
Biggar - 10/13
Ford - 12/14
Gopperth - 13/14
Hastings - 13/14
Jackson - 13/14
Sheedy - 13/13
Simmonds - 13/14
Lozowski - 14/14
Grayson has potential but hasn’t kicked on. I was dubious about furbank at 10, but fair play to him, he runs it well.
Appearances for Saints according to the Offie (starts; appearances from the bench in brackets; then total):
Biggar 59 (0) 59
Furbank 63 (2) 65
Grayson 46 (21) 67
So Grayson has played more times for Saints than either Biggar or Furbank.
Biggar 59 (0) 59
Furbank 63 (2) 65
Grayson 46 (21) 67
So Grayson has played more times for Saints than either Biggar or Furbank.
Quote:Rugbyman01
Saints Coaches select favorite players regardless of performance. Long time since our coaches have had any accountability. Leicester are missing 6 players so we may have a chance. Can't be worse than the home fixture.
For information
Tigers have six with England - Genge, Heyes, Chessum, Youngs, Ford & Steward.
Plus 2 with England U20s - Ilione & Edwards (very unlikely to have been selected)
As you will know SB keeps the injured list very secret but the following would have been in for a shout in the 23 so assume are injured - MVS, Moroni, Murimurivalu & Henderson.
Quote:Saint Maul
Appearances for Saints according to the Offie (starts; appearances from the bench in brackets; then total):
Biggar 59 (0) 59
Furbank 63 (2) 65
Grayson 46 (21) 67
So Grayson has played more times for Saints than either Biggar or Furbank.
Exactly my point Saint Maul he isn't some young kid who hasn't been given a chance, for whatever reason under the current set up he is third choice and with no wanderers matches getting little to no game time, probably best for all if he moves on, unless things change when Boyd leaves.
Build up to the derby has been really lacklustre all round. Saints and tigers haven't put much effort into promoting it which is a shame.
Tulsa having a nightmare with just about everything so far and saints making too many stupid mistakes.
Territory and Possession are the keys to the game. We are getting neither? As a result there has been no momentum.
Quote:JohnI
Tulsa having a nightmare with just about everything so far and saints making too many stupid mistakes.
Surprised by stupid mistakes ?!!
I'd add panic to that which is all too predictable.
Penalty after penalty after penalty. Playing like amateurs and paying the price in the scoreboard.
Going from bad to worse.
Going from bad to worse.
I don’t know whether Ribbans is not too bright or he has rushes of blood to the head on a regular basis, either way he is a liability.
Apart from chucking it about in panic, what is the game plan?
We have no structure to our game at all. Every Leicester player makes distance beyond the initial tackle and the amount of stupid penalties is embarrassing. We may be in the same league literally, but we aren’t in the same league figuratively by miles.
We have no structure to our game at all. Every Leicester player makes distance beyond the initial tackle and the amount of stupid penalties is embarrassing. We may be in the same league literally, but we aren’t in the same league figuratively by miles.
Soft up front, soft in the scrum, soft in the maul, soft in defence, soft on discipline, soft in contact
7 penalties in 30 minutes, three tries for Leicester and then Hutchison and Skoda show them how it’s done.
Brilliant score but we need to be doing it all the time not occasionally
Brilliant score but we need to be doing it all the time not occasionally
I’ve said so many times that our breakdown play is poor
We are too easy to defend and worse too easy to turnover
Tonight we are on plan G. Which involves optional defence and throw the ball anywhere in the hope someone might catch it
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:11:20:28:38 by Deesaint.
We are too easy to defend and worse too easy to turnover
Tonight we are on plan G. Which involves optional defence and throw the ball anywhere in the hope someone might catch it
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:11:20:28:38 by Deesaint.
Too loose, but looking good when we string something together in attack.
Impressed by the communication between Matthew Charley & Tom Foley.
Impressed by the communication between Matthew Charley & Tom Foley.
Not going well then? I just got home, saw the state of the pitch and decided that there is no rugby going to be played on that and went to the pub to sink a nice cold pint. Hope you guys who journeyed ti Welford road enjoy the mud wrestling as much as I am enjoying this pint. Can I move the Saints feom losing here to the SH to lose there too but see actual rugby? Enjoy.
Front rowers are more concerned about their side steps and one touch handling skills than doing any of the tough stuff
Brilliant try made by Hutch and if Furbs had backed himself after a brilliant break, we could have been much closer.
Breakdown penalties absolutely killing us. Far to slow to back up the player taking the ball in.
Embarrassing this. Pack and defensively weak. Same problems that haven't been addressed properly for years. The amount of stupid penalties we concede is chronic, again never been addressed.
At least things will be better next year with the big coaching team shake up.
Quote:Saints Advocate
At least things will be better next year with the big coaching team shake up.
Absolutely, get em in now I say....
It is the set piece that has given away possession and territory. Defence hasn’t been that bad.
It’s a waste having all these talented young backs with a powder puff pack
Assuming the pack is still the same usual suspects next season then this club/team is going absolutely nowhere
It’s an unserious rugby club
Assuming the pack is still the same usual suspects next season then this club/team is going absolutely nowhere
It’s an unserious rugby club
Quote:herbie85
Embarrassing this. Pack and defensively weak. Same problems that haven't been addressed properly for years. The amount of stupid penalties we concede is chronic, again never been addressed.
Totally agree.
The most frustrating thing is the same old issues have not being addressed year after year after year.
Still, at least Saints will wheel out Tom Wood tomorrow to state how embarrassed the team are and they will look to address things !!!
Can you imagine the club actually promotes this coaching group. Today reaffirms everything as usual. Same season after season. Next season will be interesting with no player changes.
If the coaches are unable to get the players to perform in a Derby or any big match tbh, they have no right to even be in position.
Leicester have 6 internationals out amongst other players. Really shows how weak our squad has become.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:11:21:27:16 by Rugbyman01.
If the coaches are unable to get the players to perform in a Derby or any big match tbh, they have no right to even be in position.
Leicester have 6 internationals out amongst other players. Really shows how weak our squad has become.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:11:21:27:16 by Rugbyman01.
Powder puff pack is about right, all stems from the front 5. Poor defence and soft in most areas. We even managed to make Freddie Burns look like a superstar!!
I'm normally pretty critical but Carley and Foley have been brilliant tonight. Really clear, quick. Not sure I have disagreed with too much.
Saints have made it so easy for the referee to use his whistle to blow for penalty after penalty. Totally inept performance overall even having scored 3 tries
Quote:Rugbyman01
Leicester have 6 internationals out amongst other players. Really shows how weak our squad has become.
I think that's what makes this all the more embarrassing. I know we have a few internationals missing, but don't appear to have the volume out that they do. Seems like scary squad depth that has developed at tigers, certainly in comparison to us.
With six away with England that did prevent it being a total embarrassment and we did fight hard. But we are so far away from being competitive against anyone with a gameplan.
Will it change when Boyd goes, who knows but we are such a poorly coached side at the moment.
Will it change when Boyd goes, who knows but we are such a poorly coached side at the moment.
Commentary at the end of the game - 'discipline and accurate'. This hasn't been good enough pretty much every game this season and before... Why aren't be getting more disciplined? Why aren't we getting more accurate?
BTW how good was burns? I bet he came pretty cheap and what value he provides.
BTW how good was burns? I bet he came pretty cheap and what value he provides.
Having heard Saints and inaccurate in the same sentence for the past 4 years
Is it time to follow Exeter’s lead and rebrand
Northampton Inaccurates
Moto of a player knocking on
For those that will come on and moan that no one is saying anything nice
I thought AM’s try was a great individual effort
Is it time to follow Exeter’s lead and rebrand
Northampton Inaccurates
Moto of a player knocking on
For those that will come on and moan that no one is saying anything nice
I thought AM’s try was a great individual effort
Quote:Saint Ted
Lozowski - 14/14
Maybe I'm missing something in how you're collating stats but Lozo hasn't started 14/14 at 10. He's played a handful of games there with Goode or now Manu being the more preferred choices.
We need to be stronger in the Front Row and keep our discipline. The problem is that being on the back foot too much of the match leads to penalties. We are good at making the likes of Burns look good. It doesn’t help when he has a deflected kick land in front of a slow returning forward who is then onside. When things are going your way you can cash in.
The board “regardless of performance we will keep the same players and the same coaches”
If they get paid salaries that’s the worlds easiest job.
If they get paid salaries that’s the worlds easiest job.
I hope Dowson recognises we are woefully under powered up front!
Have we beaten a top four side this season??
We get out muscled every time. The Boyd Super 15 era may have scored a few fancy tries, but we’ve never seriously competed for the title in his reign!
We’re at least half a team off from competing at the top level, but look at Tigers. They finished bottom last season and are romping away with it this season, so it can be done. Do we have any cash to sign top players? The academy doesn’t appear to be producing any decent forwards!
No chance of top four this season! 😏
Have we beaten a top four side this season??
We get out muscled every time. The Boyd Super 15 era may have scored a few fancy tries, but we’ve never seriously competed for the title in his reign!
We’re at least half a team off from competing at the top level, but look at Tigers. They finished bottom last season and are romping away with it this season, so it can be done. Do we have any cash to sign top players? The academy doesn’t appear to be producing any decent forwards!
No chance of top four this season! 😏
Quote:TimperleySaint
Commentary at the end of the game - 'discipline and accurate'. This hasn't been good enough pretty much every game this season and before... Why aren't be getting more disciplined? Why aren't we getting more accurate?
BTW how good was burns? I bet he came pretty cheap and what value he provides.
Burns is a talented guy who has the luxury of playing behind a professional pack. Our guys feed on scraps.
Freddie Burns kicked your ass, never thought I'd say that and Ashton try saving tackle and played with passion, another thing I never thought I'd say with him in a Tigers shirt. I was hoping we'd win our home games this year as a sign of progress, I think we are ahead of where I expected us to be, how we would work without Ford and Genge was worrying, but we managed just fine today, so no worries.
Yeah probably best to move on TigerBurnie. This along with your earlier post thinking tigers are the only team ever to play young players shows you are a bit like the saints pack and don’t really offer anything. Congratulations on your win.
The result is no surprise. W are ridiculously uncompetitive against any sort of quality opposition. Soft as....
The fact the Board want all to believe this is part of a master plan is insulting. @#$%& poor, sorry.
The fact the Board want all to believe this is part of a master plan is insulting. @#$%& poor, sorry.
Quote:TimperleySaint
I'm normally pretty critical but Carley and Foley have been brilliant tonight. Really clear, quick. Not sure I have disagreed with too much.
We see poor officiating week in week out in the Prem - but not tonight - I thought they were excellent.
Quote:ThanksSaints Advocate
Yeah probably best to move on TigerBurnie. This along with your earlier post thinking tigers are the only team ever to play young players shows you are a bit like the saints pack and don’t really offer anything. Congratulations on your win.
IDK I've always had a thing about NZ coaches in the prem they usually don't seem to get the forwards side of things.
But I don't think you are in as bad a place as some on here make out too be.
Hill, Ribbans, Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus are a good group of forwards to build around.
Hill, Ribbans and Ludlam are all only 26 and Augustus even younger.
Backs in attack regularly had us especially Hutchinson when he attacked the outside channel.
I'm sure that right now it's pretty irrelevant right now. I know the feeling of losing derbies, but I certainly feel there is plenty of potential.
But I don't think you are in as bad a place as some on here make out too be.
Hill, Ribbans, Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus are a good group of forwards to build around.
Hill, Ribbans and Ludlam are all only 26 and Augustus even younger.
Backs in attack regularly had us especially Hutchinson when he attacked the outside channel.
I'm sure that right now it's pretty irrelevant right now. I know the feeling of losing derbies, but I certainly feel there is plenty of potential.
Quote:Saints Advocate
Yeah probably best to move on TigerBurnie. This along with your earlier post thinking tigers are the only team ever to play young players shows you are a bit like the saints pack and don’t really offer anything. Congratulations on your win.
+1
Same old story. Half backs look brilliant when they have an armchair ride from a dominant pack. If the boot was on the other foot, Mitchell and Furbank would have had a field day.
Quote:Ayerzawannabe
IDK I've always had a thing about NZ coaches in the prem they usually don't seem to get the forwards side of things.
But I don't think you are in as bad a place as some on here make out too be.
Hill, Ribbans, Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus are a good group of forwards to build around.
Hill, Ribbans and Ludlam are all only 26 and Augustus even younger.
Backs in attack regularly had us especially Hutchinson when he attacked the outside channel.
I'm sure that right now it's pretty irrelevant right now. I know the feeling of losing derbies, but I certainly feel there is plenty of potential.
Thanks for the input but you don't watch us week in, week out so perhaps not the most objective opinion.
Believe me, we are poor and are a team and club
in denial. We seem incapable of addressing the ongoing issues of poor basics and discipline and we fold far too easily when under pressure. This has been an issue for years.
Top talent isn't just in the feet and hands but in the head. Saints don't have that and have been lacking for years.
Congratulations on a well deserved victory.
A few thoughts after the match.
1. Some lovely tries scored by us.
2. Mitchell and Hutchinson caught the eye from a Saints perspective.
3. Furbank is not the future at 10 without improving his goalkicking. Not sure whose tea Grayson spat in but that we closed out the game with a fullback at fly half, a centre at fullback, and a fly half on the bench probably says everything about his future at the club.
4. What can we do about the sloppy (poor passes etc.) and undisciplined sides to our game? Didn't see Tigers throw anywhere near as many bad passes, for instance.
5. When are these derbies next going to be played outside the international window, for crying out loud? I went to BBC Sport this afternoon to check the kick off time and a game like this should be top of the rugby pages, but there wasn't even a mention. Whoever is marketing the game is shooting themselves in the foot by making these big fixtures not even a footnote.
6. Still struggling to profit from being a man up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:12:00:40:25 by Matthew.
1. Some lovely tries scored by us.
2. Mitchell and Hutchinson caught the eye from a Saints perspective.
3. Furbank is not the future at 10 without improving his goalkicking. Not sure whose tea Grayson spat in but that we closed out the game with a fullback at fly half, a centre at fullback, and a fly half on the bench probably says everything about his future at the club.
4. What can we do about the sloppy (poor passes etc.) and undisciplined sides to our game? Didn't see Tigers throw anywhere near as many bad passes, for instance.
5. When are these derbies next going to be played outside the international window, for crying out loud? I went to BBC Sport this afternoon to check the kick off time and a game like this should be top of the rugby pages, but there wasn't even a mention. Whoever is marketing the game is shooting themselves in the foot by making these big fixtures not even a footnote.
6. Still struggling to profit from being a man up.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:12:00:40:25 by Matthew.
Quote:Ayerzawannabe
IDK I've always had a thing about NZ coaches in the prem they usually don't seem to get the forwards side of things.
But I don't think you are in as bad a place as some on here make out too be.
Hill, Ribbans, Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus are a good group of forwards to build around.
Hill, Ribbans and Ludlam are all only 26 and Augustus even younger.
Backs in attack regularly had us especially Hutchinson when he attacked the outside channel.
I'm sure that right now it's pretty irrelevant right now. I know the feeling of losing derbies, but I certainly feel there is plenty of potential.
Quote:Ayerzawannabe
IDK I've always had a thing about NZ coaches in the prem they usually don't seem to get the forwards side of things.
But I don't think you are in as bad a place as some on here make out too be.
Hill, Ribbans, Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus are a good group of forwards to build around.
Hill, Ribbans and Ludlam are all only 26 and Augustus even younger.
Backs in attack regularly had us especially Hutchinson when he attacked the outside channel.
I'm sure that right now it's pretty irrelevant right now. I know the feeling of losing derbies, but I certainly feel there is plenty of potential.
Yeah, people are pretty grumpy. Everyone can do better in leadership until they are in leadership. Yet most leaders are crap.
I too don't think NH coaches get it. And I can see why, they have a brand that is fun to watch. This no disrespect to Tigers but I have turned off more than one prem game from several neutral games this year because I really don't like the style of play the prem produces. I like ball in hand Rugby and that is punished too severely and too difficult to do, credit to Quins who managed it last year, but I don't see that style of play succeeding too often and I don't see too many new people being attracted to watching the game in it's current form.
Quote:Matthew
A few thoughts after the match.
1. Some lovely tries scored by us.
2. Mitchell and Hutchinson caught the eye from a Saints perspective.
3. Furbank is not the future at 10 without improving his goalkicking. Not sure whose tea Grayson spat in but that we closed out the game with a fullback at fly half, a centre at fullback, and a fly half on the bench probably says everything about his future at the club.
4. What can we do about the sloppy (poor passes etc.) and undisciplined sides to our game? Didn't see Tigers throw anywhere near as many bad passes, for instance.
5. When are these derbies next going to be played outside the international window, for crying out loud? I went to BBC Sport this afternoon to check the kick off time and a game like this should be top of the rugby pages, but there wasn't even a mention. Whoever is marketing the game is shooting themselves in the foot by making these big fixtures not even a footnote.
6. Still struggling to profit from being a man up.
2 of our 3 tries came from instinctive individual brilliance. The ball is chucked around willy nilly to create those sort of opportunities, we have very little chance to score from phase play because our forwards are probably the worst in the league. And that’s with a high level back row contingent.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:Saint Ted
Lozowski - 14/14
Maybe I'm missing something in how you're collating stats but Lozo hasn't started 14/14 at 10. He's played a handful of games there with Goode or now Manu being the more preferred choices.
Stat site I was using was a bit screwy and he came out as a 10, I wasn’t really looking at the names tbh, take him of the list and the point still stands
Quote:Only top 4 team we beat this season was Glocs early in the season before they hit their stride. Looking back at the score lines Leicester, Quins, and Saracens have put on us really shows the gaps between those teams and Saints.Hollywood JK
I hope Dowson recognises we are woefully under powered up front!
Have we beaten a top four side this season??
We get out muscled every time. The Boyd Super 15 era may have scored a few fancy tries, but we’ve never seriously competed for the title in his reign!
We’re at least half a team off from competing at the top level, but look at Tigers. They finished bottom last season and are romping away with it this season, so it can be done. Do we have any cash to sign top players? The academy doesn’t appear to be producing any decent forwards!
No chance of top four this season! 😏
On the Tigers forum before the game the general view was the Saints team looked a very good side. I'd agree.
Bar the front row where we are weak, the issue isn't the players. It's the coaching. The sad thought is knowing it'll be more of the same next season.
Burns looked great for Tigers. Put him in our team with our coaches and he'd look a liability. Put Ribbans in the Tigers team and he'd look brilliant.
Bar the front row where we are weak, the issue isn't the players. It's the coaching. The sad thought is knowing it'll be more of the same next season.
Burns looked great for Tigers. Put him in our team with our coaches and he'd look a liability. Put Ribbans in the Tigers team and he'd look brilliant.
It’s all very boring and predictable now.
We played exactly as we always do, some nice flourishes and pieces of skill for the highlight reel, but never competitive or in danger of actually winning.
Flaky lineout, brain fart penalties and so on and so on. As others have said we really do look a very poorly coached team.
We played exactly as we always do, some nice flourishes and pieces of skill for the highlight reel, but never competitive or in danger of actually winning.
Flaky lineout, brain fart penalties and so on and so on. As others have said we really do look a very poorly coached team.
Quote:stoofer
It’s all very boring and predictable now.
We played exactly as we always do, some nice flourishes and pieces of skill for the highlight reel, but never competitive or in danger of actually winning.
Flaky lineout, brain fart penalties and so on and so on. As others have said we really do look a very poorly coached team.
Largely agree. A poor man's Harlequins. Some great pieces of play going forward but poor fundamentals. We over complicate and are just far too easy for well drilled, tough and disciplined sides to beat. Sure we can beat the bottom sides but the results against the top 4 say it all.
Definitely think we need recruitment in the front 5 and a rethink on the way we try to play. Otherwise we are mid table at best.
I have now accepted the result from last night, but the same things keep floating around in my head. About the game, the players, the coaching and the most important thing, the club.
You missed something - soft in the head.
The front row is pathetic. I know we're not supposed to focus on an individual, but what the heck is Paul Hill doing all week? He was taught a lesson by a novice. James Whitcombe may well have a very good lineage but he's the one on the park. And Hill just cannot learn to keep his mouth shut.
I am fed up with the player - but I am more fed up with the coach who is supposed to be dealing with his play/behaviour and the selection process that keeps selecting him.
Ribbans was not mentioned by the commentary team on the TV until 22 minutes into the game - only for him to give away a penalty that I could just hear Brian Moore describing as "dull". What has happened to him? He is a shadow of his former self and shows no areas of improvement. He should be working alongside Courtney to develop his tackling if nothing else.
The back row seem to be on a hiding to nothing. Just keep running at people and expect them to fall over - is that what they're told?
Mitchell had a normal game a mixture of brilliance and banality. I liked the comment by Ben Kay about our kicking game - does anyone know what they're supposed to be doing? Because our kicking and chasing do not match. One is wrong, which is it?
GB at 10. I've said all I have to say on his selection - but it is now as clear as the nose on Mike Tindall's face that JG is very clearly on the naughty step. Every sub was sent on - except Grayson.
Both centres had moments of extremes. I grow to like Dingwall more and more - but again we come back to what the coaches expect - a battering ram he is not. Rory was Rory - gormless and incredible, depending on which bit you watch!
Why bother about who we play on the wings - they're not going to be receiving the ball. They're there to defend. And to sweep up after Tuala.
But the real problem for me, is at the top. We accept mediocrity with relish. We talk a good game, but have not delivered for years. And we always find an excuse.
We talk a good game but that's as far as we can get.
Quote:Spockst
...Soft up front, soft in the scrum, soft in the maul, soft in defence, soft on discipline, soft in contact...
You missed something - soft in the head.
The front row is pathetic. I know we're not supposed to focus on an individual, but what the heck is Paul Hill doing all week? He was taught a lesson by a novice. James Whitcombe may well have a very good lineage but he's the one on the park. And Hill just cannot learn to keep his mouth shut.
I am fed up with the player - but I am more fed up with the coach who is supposed to be dealing with his play/behaviour and the selection process that keeps selecting him.
Ribbans was not mentioned by the commentary team on the TV until 22 minutes into the game - only for him to give away a penalty that I could just hear Brian Moore describing as "dull". What has happened to him? He is a shadow of his former self and shows no areas of improvement. He should be working alongside Courtney to develop his tackling if nothing else.
The back row seem to be on a hiding to nothing. Just keep running at people and expect them to fall over - is that what they're told?
Mitchell had a normal game a mixture of brilliance and banality. I liked the comment by Ben Kay about our kicking game - does anyone know what they're supposed to be doing? Because our kicking and chasing do not match. One is wrong, which is it?
GB at 10. I've said all I have to say on his selection - but it is now as clear as the nose on Mike Tindall's face that JG is very clearly on the naughty step. Every sub was sent on - except Grayson.
Both centres had moments of extremes. I grow to like Dingwall more and more - but again we come back to what the coaches expect - a battering ram he is not. Rory was Rory - gormless and incredible, depending on which bit you watch!
Why bother about who we play on the wings - they're not going to be receiving the ball. They're there to defend. And to sweep up after Tuala.
But the real problem for me, is at the top. We accept mediocrity with relish. We talk a good game, but have not delivered for years. And we always find an excuse.
We talk a good game but that's as far as we can get.
Coaching/selection has become a real issue.
For example Sleights as a winger has played 10 games this season and not scored 1 point. Not good enough.
Furbank looks miles off a 10 at this level. Grayson no doubt fed up.
Ribbans form is woeful.
Front row are uncompetitive regardless of who plays.
Hutchinson is not a FB and look uncomfortable.
Seems like we are putting players In positions rather than right players to enable a performance
Squad lacks any depth.
The players look totally fed up with coaches. They must have to follow game plan or be dropped.
Coaches unaccountable.
It goes on. Oh well, that's Saints.
For example Sleights as a winger has played 10 games this season and not scored 1 point. Not good enough.
Furbank looks miles off a 10 at this level. Grayson no doubt fed up.
Ribbans form is woeful.
Front row are uncompetitive regardless of who plays.
Hutchinson is not a FB and look uncomfortable.
Seems like we are putting players In positions rather than right players to enable a performance
Squad lacks any depth.
The players look totally fed up with coaches. They must have to follow game plan or be dropped.
Coaches unaccountable.
It goes on. Oh well, that's Saints.
Quote:Whiston Saint
We need to be stronger in the Front Row and keep our discipline. The problem is that being on the back foot too much of the match leads to penalties. We are good at making the likes of Burns look good. It doesn’t help when he has a deflected kick land in front of a slow returning forward who is then onside. When things are going your way you can cash in.
"The likes of Burns" is an odd thing to say. He has four more England caps than Meyler who is lauded on here. He is a good player.
It is interesting people pick on the front row and especially Hill.
When we had Franks here, a 100+ double world cup winning prop he looked equally as bad if not worse. I am pretty sure if you gave Tigers Hill within a few months many would be saying how did we let him go?
When we had Franks here, a 100+ double world cup winning prop he looked equally as bad if not worse. I am pretty sure if you gave Tigers Hill within a few months many would be saying how did we let him go?
Quote:ajack
It is interesting people pick on the front row and especially Hill.
When we had Franks here, a 100+ double world cup winning prop he looked equally as bad if not worse. I am pretty sure if you gave Tigers Hill within a few months many would be saying how did we let him go?
So what are we doing to them? We are, apparently, producing sows' ears out of silk purses!
Hill last night was up against James Whitcombe. I think this was his fourth start in the premiership. But worse for me, was not the penalty he gave away for yet again losing his legs, but his mouthing off after the event to Carley. What is he on? He perfectly summed up Saints for me last night. Hence my silence until this morning! And I'm still furious over such petulance.
But more than that, what are the coaches doing about it? it's nothing new.
Do we have an analyst? Working with the coaches.
Do we have a data gatherer, working with the coaches.
All the issues we have are - in business - Key Performance Indicators. And should be fed to the management (or coaches). Either the data gatherers are failing, or the coaches are failing. I do not need to be a coach to see this. Any manager should see it.
Quite right Longers. Having seemingly plateaued and done nothing to kick on, we are seemingly now entering the stagnation and general malaise phase of this squad’s lifecycle.
Good players looking very poor and directionless and a management team who are seemingly completely out of ideas / motivation being rewarded and promoted for their failures.
I dunno. It’s always dark after a Tiggers loss, but it’s hard not to see things getting worse before they start getting better.
Good players looking very poor and directionless and a management team who are seemingly completely out of ideas / motivation being rewarded and promoted for their failures.
I dunno. It’s always dark after a Tiggers loss, but it’s hard not to see things getting worse before they start getting better.
The scrum seems on par to most teams to be honest. Did not see the game but the states are fairly normal.
Good to see you remain so positive SaintAsh. Scrum stats look acceptable but I think the only stat that matters is tigers 35-20 saints.
Quote:Saints Advocate
Good to see you remain so positive SaintAsh. Scrum stats look acceptable but I think the only stat that matters is tigers 35-20 saints.
I am noy really positive, not negative with the Saints, though I appreciate that there are lots to improve. I am negative about the game of Rugby at the moment.
2 pieces of play summed up our front row efforts - Waller falling off a lazy arms tackle in midfield on Liebenberg who then ran half the length of the pitch, the other was Matavesi allowing Wells to rip the ball off him from 5m out which led to a try. We are weak physically and mentally, not winners.
What exactly happened with our attacking scrum at the end of the first half? I was in the exact opposite corner of the ground, so didn't see how we squandered that position.
NB players will get stripped from time to time. I recall Lawes having the ball stripped from him against Wales when playing for England, from which Wales went on to score; not sure I'd call Courtney physically weak!
NB players will get stripped from time to time. I recall Lawes having the ball stripped from him against Wales when playing for England, from which Wales went on to score; not sure I'd call Courtney physically weak!
Having watched on TV
Did anyone else get the feel that PD is already in charge
Note book at the ready waiting for the team at half time
Did anyone else get the feel that PD is already in charge
Note book at the ready waiting for the team at half time
Absolutely spot on. Performance is there for us all to see. But even more worrying is the lack of gameplan, coaching and players abilities regressing rather than developing.
Quote:Longers
I have now accepted the result from last night, but the same things keep floating around in my head. About the game, the players, the coaching and the most important thing, the club.Quote:Spockst
...Soft up front, soft in the scrum, soft in the maul, soft in defence, soft on discipline, soft in contact...
You missed something - soft in the head.
The front row is pathetic. I know we're not supposed to focus on an individual, but what the heck is Paul Hill doing all week? He was taught a lesson by a novice. James Whitcombe may well have a very good lineage but he's the one on the park. And Hill just cannot learn to keep his mouth shut.
I am fed up with the player - but I am more fed up with the coach who is supposed to be dealing with his play/behaviour and the selection process that keeps selecting him.
Ribbans was not mentioned by the commentary team on the TV until 22 minutes into the game - only for him to give away a penalty that I could just hear Brian Moore describing as "dull". What has happened to him? He is a shadow of his former self and shows no areas of improvement. He should be working alongside Courtney to develop his tackling if nothing else.
The back row seem to be on a hiding to nothing. Just keep running at people and expect them to fall over - is that what they're told?
Mitchell had a normal game a mixture of brilliance and banality. I liked the comment by Ben Kay about our kicking game - does anyone know what they're supposed to be doing? Because our kicking and chasing do not match. One is wrong, which is it?
GB at 10. I've said all I have to say on his selection - but it is now as clear as the nose on Mike Tindall's face that JG is very clearly on the naughty step. Every sub was sent on - except Grayson.
Both centres had moments of extremes. I grow to like Dingwall more and more - but again we come back to what the coaches expect - a battering ram he is not. Rory was Rory - gormless and incredible, depending on which bit you watch!
Why bother about who we play on the wings - they're not going to be receiving the ball. They're there to defend. And to sweep up after Tuala.
But the real problem for me, is at the top. We accept mediocrity with relish. We talk a good game, but have not delivered for years. And we always find an excuse.
We talk a good game but that's as far as we can get.
Give the boards only big job is choosing the coaches, and given we have missed the boards minimum top 4 targets
in more seasons than not of late, I assume there is some accountability in the board room? Or just jobs for the boys?
in more seasons than not of late, I assume there is some accountability in the board room? Or just jobs for the boys?
Quote:Deesaint
Having watched on TV
Did anyone else get the feel that PD is already in charge
Note book at the ready waiting for the team at half time
That is a huge concern. If things improve when Boyd leaves that is one thing but if this is the future we really are in a mess.
At least the forum can congratulate itself on predictions about Ashton's cameo glory and carding.
Quote:Santiago
At least the forum can congratulate itself on predictions about Ashton's cameo glory and carding.
Quite a tackle on GB wasn't it?
We have dropped to 7th in table. After next week, High chance we will be 9th. The table reflects our progress under this coaching and mgt group. It's just disappointing.
Quote:SaintsAshQuote:Ayerzawannabe
IDK I've always had a thing about NZ coaches in the prem they usually don't seem to get the forwards side of things.
But I don't think you are in as bad a place as some on here make out too be.
Hill, Ribbans, Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus are a good group of forwards to build around.
Hill, Ribbans and Ludlam are all only 26 and Augustus even younger.
Backs in attack regularly had us especially Hutchinson when he attacked the outside channel.
I'm sure that right now it's pretty irrelevant right now. I know the feeling of losing derbies, but I certainly feel there is plenty of potential.
Yeah, people are pretty grumpy. Everyone can do better in leadership until they are in leadership. Yet most leaders are crap.
I too don't think NH coaches get it. And I can see why, they have a brand that is fun to watch. This no disrespect to Tigers but I have turned off more than one prem game from several neutral games this year because I really don't like the style of play the prem produces. I like ball in hand Rugby and that is punished too severely and too difficult to do, credit to Quins who managed it last year, but I don't see that style of play succeeding too often and I don't see too many new people being attracted to watching the game in it's current form.
True but at the same time more people come to watch you live when your winning regardless of play style.
Tigers fan in peace. Although it would be nice if we played a bit more expansively I get why Borthwick is building from a strong foundation of set piece/kick chase/maul. I’m sure he will continue to add layers to our attacking play as time goes on and in the meantime am happy to see us winning ugly. Saying that we are scoring plenty of tries as 8 try bonus point wins demonstrates. Regarding Saints obviously I don’t watch you every week but it seems that most of that most of the academy lads you have bought through tend to be backs whereas ours are mostly forwards so that partly accounts for our solid basics. Good luck for the rest of the season and hope we both make top four.
Quote:A2O
Tigers fan in peace. Although it would be nice if we played a bit more expansively I get why Borthwick is building from a strong foundation of set piece/kick chase/maul. I’m sure he will continue to add layers to our attacking play as time goes on and in the meantime am happy to see us winning ugly. Saying that we are scoring plenty of tries as 8 try bonus point wins demonstrates. Regarding Saints obviously I don’t watch you every week but it seems that most of that most of the academy lads you have bought through tend to be backs whereas ours are mostly forwards so that partly accounts for our solid basics. Good luck for the rest of the season and hope we both make top four.
Nice post and I totally agree with you. It makes perfect sense to do what Borthwick is doing. I guess in its current form it is not the game for me, at least I am going to pick and choose what games to spend my free time watching.
Quote:SaintsAshQuote:A2O
Tigers fan in peace. Although it would be nice if we played a bit more expansively I get why Borthwick is building from a strong foundation of set piece/kick chase/maul. I’m sure he will continue to add layers to our attacking play as time goes on and in the meantime am happy to see us winning ugly. Saying that we are scoring plenty of tries as 8 try bonus point wins demonstrates. Regarding Saints obviously I don’t watch you every week but it seems that most of that most of the academy lads you have bought through tend to be backs whereas ours are mostly forwards so that partly accounts for our solid basics. Good luck for the rest of the season and hope we both make top four.
Nice post and I totally agree with you. It makes perfect sense to do what Borthwick is doing. I guess in its current form it is not the game for me, at least I am going to pick and choose what games to spend my free time watching.
Don’t blame you for pick and choosing games to watch with the ever changing kick off times/days. Tigers is a top priority for me so always go to every home game.
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