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Well said.

Have a rule, or don't have a rule - but don't have a rule that its ok to flout.

Like most of us, I see the "reports", statements and so on with growing amounts of incredulity. It seems as clear as day that some clubs are spending well over the cap and must therefore be gaining an advantage (or why bother). To be honest, the PRL starts to make itself look an awful lot like FIFA-lite..

I go to th final every year and 2morrows no different. Over the years, what with saints reticence to appear in too many finals, I've cheered sarries, I've cheered quins, I've even cheered (don't hold this against me) tigs.

Tomorrow is going to be difficult; I don't want to cheer either side.

An investigation prior to the semis would have allowed me to enjoy the game, come what may; either bath and sarries would have been absolved or they would have been kicked out with a worthier team playing in the final.

It's a cynical view I know but if we accept that corruption appears to be rife in professional sport of all kinds, and why should rugby be any different, they might as well get rid of any salary cap and let them get on with it. We all know, or think we know the potential consequences and we may be sure they'll find other rules to break but at least it would remove the mystery, the rumour and counter-rumour and would be a bit more transparent. I might even say I don't care about the outcome as long as my club sits at the top table, but I won't go quite that far because I like to think I am not quite as corrupt as they appear to be.

You sum up my feelings well Chris.

This is not about who is playing in tomorrows final - Its a bigger question that that . What I think Chris G seems to be concerned by at is a trend which may or may not be signified by the two teams alleged to be the prime suspects in breaking some rules.

It isn't all that important as who is guilty of what . What is important is that it was swept under the carpet - kicked into the long grass - put to one side etc. lest various BRANDS are embarrassed by disclosure .

PRL is a Brand the RFU is a brand and overall the IRRB or world Rugby is a Brand. The relationships , between them are fascinating or Byzantine as you wish. In the old days we would have called them " Vested Interests " which tells us much more than the word brand - it suggests that they have an interest an edge that supersedes all other considerations - such as the customer - punter - fan etc.

That is why we have a cock-eyed season - increasing numbers of international fixtures - and play offs. Its why there will be ring fencing and then eventually a franchise based super league ?

Pessimistic yes I am - but I will still go to watch my club play while its still there .

I was going to post something similar Chris, maybe pen an article , but there are so many strands to this I don't think I've got my head around it all yet.. The seriously unequal manner in which different players , clubs and incidents are treated by the media and the officials and disciplinary process also has me depressed.

I watched a replay of Wimbledon beating Liverpool in the FA Cup 1988 last night and it was a stark reminder of how football has changed ; imo for the worse in so many aspects. Sadly I see rugby going down the same path. The overeactions by certain supporters to everyday events, the over analysis of every single aspect of a match leaves me shaking my head most days. The Salary cap issues are currently casting a huge shadow over the game, just as we hear of the corruption in FIFA coming to light. A corruption that most people believed has existed for many years. Even now the head of the organisation rather than resigning, is standing for re-election. It appears that now in rugby when those who are found deliberately cheating for personal gain , far from being contrite and willing to pay reparation , will stand firm and proud of what they have done. And we call this sport ?

Saint 'til I die

I hope you don't mind, but I posted this on our (falcons ) board - I thought it was worth reading:

I took this from the Quins board, it was a Times piece:



Quote:
The off-field politics that may pave the way for London club to reach the Premiership play-offs
The Aviva Premiership is set for a thriller today with three teams — Leicester Tigers, Exeter Chiefs and Saracens — vying for the remaining two places in the semi-finals. Fans of Leicester and Exeter, however, may well wonder if Saracens have the right to be there.
Until February 23, Saracens were to have been the subject of an investigation into a salary cap breach. However, in an extraordinary turn of events at a meeting at a London hotel that day, the Premiership clubs voted for the investigation to be suspended.
If found guilty of a breach, the minimum penalty is a four-point deduction. If, therefore, the investigation had continued and found Saracens guilty, they would probably be out of the play-offs and would possibly not have qualified for a place in next season’s European Champions Cup.
Saracens insist that they are not guilty of a breach. Nevertheless, a considerable coup was staged to prevent the investigation from reaching that conclusion. Which raises the question: why did the other clubs unanimously agree? Indeed, some of them left a long and hotly contested meeting that day asking that very same question. How did we let that happen?
Some clubs — Harlequins, Wasps, Gloucester, Sale Sharks and London Irish — are adamant that the investigation should not be buried for good. Their last stand that day was to haggle over the timing of when it should be unearthed. Saracens and the clubs who supported them wanted to push the date as far back as possible. When their opposition would not budge on this, they were finally forced to agree on the end of June.
When the investigation recommences, it will have 60 days to report. If Saracens are found in breach, then it remains highly likely that they would contest the legality of the salary cap in the European courts. This was one of the threats that was made to Premier Rugby Limited (PRL) — the umbrella organisation that runs the Premiership — in February. The entire salary cap system could be in jeopardy.
This was dismissed as mere “bluster” by one owner, whose legal advice was that European law does not apply to this salary cap rule because it was a shareholders’ agreement to which they had all signed up. Nevertheless, the threat was clear.
It was not the only threat, although the minutes of February 23 do not reflect this because a lot of significant dealings were conducted at a dinner of the club owners the night before. At and around that dinner, it was made known that unofficial conversations had been conducted with leading Irish and Welsh teams about the possibility of the top English clubs joining them in a breakaway super league.
These are not fantasy conversations; Irish and Welsh administrators confirm that such talks have occasionally taken place. However, while it is completely wrong to suggest that any breakaway is remotely on the table, it was certainly in the air as a scare tactic on February 23. One source said: “The breakaway was not discussed in open meeting at all. You know how impossible it would be. It is fantasy. They were trying to scaremonger more than anything else.”
There was light as well as shade. At the dinner, a proposal was made for the setting up of an executive committee of owners, the suggestion being that a group of intelligent entrepreneurs could do a successful job with smoother running of PRL. This suggestion seemed to pamper a few egos; the next suggestion was the suspension of the investigation.
By the time the meeting convened officially the next morning, it was clear that a cabal had been formed. There were 15 clubs represented by their chairmen or their chief executives — the 12 Premiership clubs plus Bristol, Worcester Warriors and Yorkshire Carnegie. In a bloc with Saracens were Bath, Exeter and Northampton Saints.
At the meeting, a proposal was put forward by Bruce Craig, the Bath owner. Craig’s package was a wide-ranging vision of the future that included subjects not previously on the meeting agenda: the end of promotion and relegation, the expansion to a 14-team league. Clearly this vision would appeal to the weaker clubs, whose businesses are perpetually under the threat of life in the Championship.
The proposal also pushed for a fairer deal for the clubs such as Bath and Harlequins, who regularly lose their best players to England duty. Crucially, it also incorporated a relaxing of the Premiership spending restrictions — the very ruling of which Saracens may have fallen foul.
The proposal was sold as a deal for the future. With so many people clearly feeling so uncomfortable about it, Craig’s was the dominant voice. As an influence, Craig can carry people with him and push them too. He has some cachet because he was the lead negotiator for the clubs when European club competition was falling apart last year. When they are digging in their heels, he likes to remind them that he was the man who, last season, saved their European competition.
Most of the owners of Premiership clubs spend the majority of their time on their own business and a small part of it on their rugby club. Craig is the other way round. He is so well versed in the rugby business that he managed to buy Will Genia, the Australia scrum half, and sell him on to Stade Français for a profit without the player even having pulled on a Bath shirt.
Yet why include the suspension of the investigation into Saracens in all this? One conclusion could be that the other clubs were under investigation too. Bath have always insisted that they are not. In fact, even the stakeholders present on February 23 do not know who is and who is not. Salary breach investigations are kept completely confidential. They only knew that Saracens were being investigated because Edward Griffiths, the Saracens chief executive at the time, told them so.
Those in favour of suspending the investigation were of the view that, to move forward, it was unhelpful to be digging up the past. The clubs in opposition were not convinced why, to improve the future, the rules for the present should suddenly be overlooked. And why should this have to be voted on as a package? League expansion, no relegation and the salary cap investigation suspension were all separate issues. Why bundle them into one?
There thus unfolded a day of heated exchanges, adjournments, private discussions and re-engagements, all of it chaired by Quentin Smith, the PRL chairman, whose day job happens to be a professional mediator.
To get the proposal through, a unanimous vote was required. Initial debate showed a group standing against it. This was whittled down to just Wasps and Harlequins.
Derek Richardson, of Wasps, dug in his heels and demanded a date for the unfreezing of the investigation. The offer he was given was after the clubs had completed their Heads of Agreement negotiations with the RFU — which could have been more than a year. He agreed to giving his vote only on the condition that the investigation was reactivated at the end of June.
That left Harlequins. The owner was abroad and uncontactable. Harlequins refused to sign. Only days later did they officially agree not to stand against the other clubs.
Thus the vote went 15-0. Who knows whether Saracens would be in the play-offs this weekend if it had not.

I will be going and if I have to choose, it will be Bath simply because they pay better rugby.

BUT

It seems certain that two clubs are going well beyond the salary cap. Both are influential and high profile with very vocal business men at their head. The remaining clubs seem not to have the courage to bring this matter to a head for fear of the consequences.

I don't like the way this league is going. Ring-fencing, games in New York, fragmented fixture lists, TV demands and to hell with the paying spectators. Only a matter of time before they demand a summer season as in rugby league and artificial pitches for consistency.

At least Goldington Road is not too far away if the Saints finally sell their soul to the devil !

Mobbs

"it will be Bath simply because they pay better rugby"

Freudian slip there Mobbs?

I agree with Chris G.

Quote:

ra
Mobbs
"it will be Bath simply because they pay better rugby"

Freudian slip there Mobbs?

I agree with Chris G.

Ha ha! We'll spotted!!

Lots of contributors here have attempted to defend the PRL, where in fact they have been a selfish organisation for quite a while. There are so many examples of their inability to consider rugby as a whole rather than just their own personal interest. I always compare what happens to English rugby with what happens at the NFL. The latest example, Tom Brady gets suspended, doubtless the PRL would not have wanted the bad publicity so no action.
Its just not right that the owners of the clubs also run the league, and, I regret to say, try to run the Heineken. The RFU voice was missing when the PRL sold the television rights of Heineken games which they did not own to BT, so has the RFU voice been missing with these salary cap issues. You can look no farther than the press or the police where time after time they fail to regulate themselves, and if the RFU remain silent ditto premiership rugby. Yes, rugby is nowhere near as important but the principle still stands.

Chris in a well written post you have pretty much encapsulated my feelings too something I posted 12 months or more ago about a 'disconnect' and a few others too. The Saints management listened and acted (NOT claiming any credit at all or otherwise BTW) and the excellent STHF came about.

But you touch a nerve on everything I also feel. It is clear what limitless cash brings witness French (cap stretchers*) Toulon et al thats what cash gets you. So I am keeping a close watch for and expect to see some brave whistle blower (no not WB*) get the dirty washing hung out soon for the sake of us the supporters but I aint holding my breath.

Top of the League 2014-2015 Season



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015:05:29:13:58:07 by Bob Stainsby.

Wondered who would be first to spot my attempt at subtlety !

I think it is pretty likely that two clubs are flagrantly breaching the cap whilst perhaps three, four or five others are perhaps - let's say - not complying with the spirit of it.

To be honest I can just about cope with that. What I can't cope with is that there is one owner who - from the reports I have read - doesn't seem content with just having his club as his "play thing" but seems intent on bending the whole of club rugby to his will, even threatening litigation if he doesn't get his own way.

When he gets his own way it will be the sensible, well-run clubs - Gloucester, Saints, Tigers, Exeter, Quins etc - and their supporters who lose out.

Top post Chris and thought provoking as always. (clearly have too much time on your hands :-))
Very much reflects my thoughts on the situation as does Howlin.

I've actually no problem at all with Toulon, they have a total different set of guidelines in France and they're not breaking any of them, nor gaining advantage by secretly doing things whilst others are held back abiding by the rules. Everyone is free to spend what they like, as long as they can prove they have the funds and are solvent.

What we could perhaps do with from France (as discussed in the 'Federal' thread below) is a bit more legal accountability to rules of competition in all professional sport, the Olympic ethos written into the structure so if you try to gain advantage by unfair means outside the written rules you are committing a criminal offence. Isn't advantage in professional sport financially rewarding too, isn't that fraud? Some might argue that breaking a cap isn't financially rewarding, the thing is it doesn't have to be, the prevention of others not gaining their due financial reward is. And thats before we even think of false accounting and defrauding the taxman by not paying full whack on employment carried out in the UK if players are being paid abroad or being made 'backloaded' post career promises outside of the UK.

There'd then be none of this 'its only a gentleman's agreement' so I can do what I want. There'd also be no 'I'll challenge you in court' because I've yet to see it happen with any success in France in high profile cases involving cycling, football and even rugby where a handful of clubs have been relegated for financial discrepancies over the years, the odd one by two divisions.

Quote:

Eif Jones
Lots of contributors here have attempted to defend the PRL

Ermmmmmmm, no they haven't, not one.

Quote:

Eif Jones
There are so many examples of their inability to consider rugby as a whole rather than just their own personal interest.

Couldn't you say the same about the WRU though Eif?

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018:09:25:08:13:55 by Robby Richmond.

Quote:

Robby Richmond
I can spot the time & day it all went pair shaped for the saints & I could see where we were headed too.
But I cant tell you cos I don't know enough about rugby to justify an opinion that might smite the coaches ability.

Eh? Who mentioned Saints, who mentioned coaches? Whats that got to do with the subject of PRL doing shady deals behind closed doors?

Chris I too have no problem with Toulon or the french system and I know its different in fact as you point out thier governance is far better. I was just using them as an example of having/spending/losing(?) loads of dosh.

Top of the League 2014-2015 Season

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018:09:25:08:14:17 by Robby Richmond.

Well Robby old bean I would like to know so do tell I can't stand the suspense

Top of the League 2014-2015 Season

These guys were disillusioned too


I like their song too



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:05:29:17:28:00 by Jazzman.

I hope we find out what has gone on sooner rather than later. There will always be doubt about these two teams even if they are found innocent, if i was falsely accused of Cheating i would demand the investigation was done sooner rather than putting a lot of effort into delaying it.

I am also very dillusioned by what the league has become. I have tried to like the playoffs but after this year & seeing it happen time & time again the most consistent team being robbed of recognition, I will not be going to premiership games. The league has no integrity & it purely rewards the form team in 2 matches. Next season I will only go to Champions Cup games. Unless other premiership club supporters make similar stances, nothing will change

Excellent post Chris G. I guess the big question is as supporters is their actually anything we can do about it? Ultimately we can walk away from the game and club we love but is there anything we can actually do to try an preserve the sport either as it is now or a better version? Cohen at Tigs has been making noises about lack of money and the need for sugar-daddies and one or two on there commented that he might be playing the groundwork? Like you I don't like the way this is heading but is there anything we can do?

Quote:

Robb T
What I can't cope with is that there is one owner who - from the reports I have read - doesn't seem content with just having his club as his "play thing" but seems intent on bending the whole of club rugby to his will, even threatening litigation if he doesn't get his own way.
When he gets his own way it will be the sensible, well-run clubs - Gloucester, Saints, Tigers, Exeter, Quins etc - and their supporters who lose out.

+1

I might get shot down here but I'll give it a shot. The Bible says more about the misuse of money and the corruption of men more than any other subject. I know it's not fashionable but it pretty much covers every aspect of human nature and its relationship with greed and was written over 2,000 years ago. Go figure?!

Quote:

Ben_D
The Bible says more about the misuse of money and the corruption of men more than any other subject. I know it's not fashionable but it pretty much covers every aspect of human nature and its relationship with greed and was written over 2,000 years ago. Go figure?!

Not sure that politics,religion etc should be discussed here, but if you are of the believer faction, well good luck to you.Personally I have a bit of a problem with the premiss of a cruel cosmic dictator.

Oh and I think you will find that historians think that it was written round about 1700 years ago not 2000.

Jazzman go read it and decide for yourself if what it says about the human condition is untrue and then we can have a chat? Don't judge a book by its followers but what it says to you. Whether you are religious or not literature of all kinds can tell you something about yourself.

The more pertinent point of Ben's post can be summarised as Money is the root of all evil.

Quote:

Ben_D
... literature of all kinds can tell you something about yourself.

I guess you are referring mainly to autobiographies...?

Quote:

Ben_D
and then we can have a chat?

Any time, as long as you are not going to come knocking on my door dragging a young child with you and professing to be one of the 144,000 special ones!

Oh bum!

you don't have to go the bible - Mr Shakespeare was quite good on the subject - and Chaucer in his Pardoners tale quotes " radix malorum est cupiditas " or "Greed is the root of all evil "

Quote:

Chris G
I've actually no problem at all with Toulon, they have a total different set of guidelines in France and they're not breaking any of them, nor gaining advantage by secretly doing things whilst others are held back abiding by the rules. Everyone is free to spend what they like, as long as they can prove they have the funds and are solvent.
What we could perhaps do with from France (as discussed in the 'Federal' thread below) is a bit more legal accountability to rules of competition in all professional sport, the Olympic ethos written into the structure so if you try to gain advantage by unfair means outside the written rules you are committing a criminal offence. Isn't advantage in professional sport financially rewarding too, isn't that fraud? Some might argue that breaking a cap isn't financially rewarding, the thing is it doesn't have to be, the prevention of others not gaining their due financial reward is. And thats before we even think of false accounting and defrauding the taxman by not paying full whack on employment carried out in the UK if players are being paid abroad or being made 'backloaded' post career promises outside of the UK.

There'd then be none of this 'its only a gentleman's agreement' so I can do what I want. There'd also be no 'I'll challenge you in court' because I've yet to see it happen with any success in France in high profile cases involving cycling, football and even rugby where a handful of clubs have been relegated for financial discrepancies over the years, the odd one by two divisions.

Chris, voila, c'est la difference...

Not only have certain individuals bought clubs and then, allegedly, decided that don't want to comply with the rules by which those clubs should compete, but they also would now like to stop other clubs outside the top tier trying to compete with them.

I and many on the Tigers forum agree with you Chris...

All this salary cap is alleged not fact.
As for Saracens breaking the salary cap I personally don't know. I also don't know why the club's collectively postponed the enquiries & I don't belive any posters or any.board do either. If Saracens are breaking the salary cap then who are we paying the big bucks to. If you take our 23 for today the only ones who may have had a reasonably good wage when joining could be Strettle Ashton & possibly Hodgson, maybe Jim HamIlton. Billy came as his family wanted the brothers to be in the same team not for money. Who else would have been offered big money to play at saracens. Maybe James Johnson. We used to buy in the players in the days before Brendan Ventnor had his clear.out. We used to buy rather than bring through the academy. I am very hard pushed to think of anyone else. Brits & Burger were virtual unknowns before joining us. Lots of teams have bought in more bigger name players in recent years than we have. That of course doesn't necessarily mean big wages.

I hope Saracens have not breached the salary cap, Nigel Wray says not & he knows way better than I or anyone else on here does. He is quoted as all clubs are investigated from time to time which sounds logical.

Are the posters going to think Quins are breaking the salary cap they have bought in a couple of big names?

Mal, in the initial post, I'm not singling out any club, I'm talking all clubs, yours, mine and all the others happily trying to drive through a monopoly at the top of our, yes our, game and shifting the goalposts to suit certain members for fear of upsetting the applecart if those within were held to account for their actions.

If clubs, whoever they might be, have broken the cap, (and I believe there is substance to this or PRL would quickly quash any rumour with statements to clear the precious cartels image) then any covering up by other clubs makes them in my view equally guilty. Isn't the person who hides the bank robbers loot equally damned in the eyes of decent people?

And the people they are are cheating the most are me and you who pay our hard earned to watch a corrupted competition, whether that brings success to our relative clubs or not. Not so long ago it used to be about the sport itself, gradually that seems to have been eroded, the pursuit of success at any cost and cash to a lesser extent (think ringfencing) seem to be guiding lights now instead of honour, integrity and fair play.

And whilst that might sound like some outdated ethos from a public schoolboy I'm just the kid from a council estate, just one that increasingly feels he's being taking for a massive ride into buying into that corrupt competition whilst guilty parties get away with impunity because others fear for that cartels image. All are guilty in my eyes if that is indeed the case.

But like I said at the beginning PRL could make a statement and put us all to rights, clear anyone of wrongdoing or if not at least hold their hands up and admit club(s) are under investigation, even without naming them. Doing nothing at all just adds flames to the fire, because at the moment they are massively underestimating the damage they are doing by keeping up this wall of silence. I'd say its much, much more damaging than if they were clear and open about how things stand even if there were a scandal and members held to account for misdemeanours. And like it or not that puts a massive cloud over the final today, PRL's showpiece. Why don't they just publicly clear your names and put an end to it? Silence, as they say, speaks volumes, even if there are no guilty parties then they are doing you a great disservice by allowing the chinese whispers to continue on what could be a great day for your club. But no, publicly, silence, deafening silence. And to make it clear again, thats all clubs party to it not any one being singled out.

[quote Chris G]Mal, in the initial post, I'm not singling out any club, I'm talking all clubs, yours, mine and all the others happily trying to drive through a monopoly at the top of our, yes our, game and shifting the goalposts to suit certain members for fear of upsetting the applecart if those within were held to account for their actions.

If clubs, whoever they might be, have broken the cap, (and I believe there is substance to this or PRL would quickly quash any rumour with statements to clear the precious cartels image) then any covering up by other clubs makes them in my view equally guilty. Isn't the person who hides the bank robbers loot equally damned in the eyes of decent people?



And the people they are are cheating the most are me and you who pay our hard earned to watch a corrupted competition, whether that brings success to our relative clubs or not. Not so long ago it used to be about the sport itself, gradually that seems to have been eroded, the pursuit of success at any cost and cash to a lesser extent (think ringfencing) seem to be guiding lights now instead of honour, integrity and fair play.

And whilst that might sound like some outdated ethos from a public schoolboy I'm just the kid from a council estate, just one that increasingly feels he's being taking for a massive ride into buying into that corrupt competition whilst guilty parties get away with impunity because others fear for that cartels image. All are guilty in my eyes if that is indeed the case.

But like I said at the beginning PRL could make a statement and put us all to rights, clear anyone of wrongdoing or if not at least hold their hands up and admit club(s) are under investigation, even without naming them. Doing nothing at all just adds flames to the fire, because at the moment they are massively underestimating the damage they are doing by keeping up this wall of silence. I'd say its much, much more damaging than if they were clear and open about how things stand even if there were a scandal and members held to account for misdemeanours. And like it or not that puts a massive cloud over the final today, PRL's showpiece. Why don't they just publicly clear your names and put an end to it? Silence, as they say, speaks volumes, even if there are no guilty parties then they are doing you a great disservice by allowing the chinese whispers to continue on what could be a great day for your club. But no, publicly, silence, deafening silence. And to make it clear again, thats all clubs party to it not any one being singled out.[/quote

I agree with everything you say up to it taints today's final with the implication that either both or one of Saracens & Bath are the guilty parties we simply do.not know. I hope at some point PRL will say who & why it was postponed. The problem is that Saracens have always been linked with it with nothing more than given in evidence than it must be them. We don't seem to have many high profile players at present that have been bought in very recently. According to Nigel Wray who would know is that all clubs are at some point under investigation not because they have or suspected to have breached the salary cap but to check all is in order as a matter of routine.

Chris G if you read the thread woke up nervous this morning again talking about a tainted final with no more evidence than it must be. I always enjoy reading this board as Saints fan are very level headed and The Gardens was one of my 1st away games. Always enjoyed my visits & when my ticket had not arrived one year your office staff were brilliantly helpful.

It wears very thin as a supporter when thIs is all you here it must be Saracens because ***** &they don't know but believe it must be true. I hope we haven't but I won't accuse any other club of it either without proof & that can only come from PRL. I will enjoy today & hope everyone there does even though I am not a fan of the playoffs as they are about making money but will support my team as I guess most fans do. Would prefer no games when England play & no playoffs therefore no teams are penalised by having England players

I played soccer for a lot of my life as well as playing rugby so have been involved in both to some degree.
Having seen the way soccer was going and getting fed up of watching prima donna overpaid footballers and the corruption that was happening again and again I decided to stay away totally from any soccer matches at all and wouldn't thank you for a couple of tickets to the FA cup final even if free.
Rugby in my opinion was the fair playing, much more entertaining and much more spectator friendly and didn't have the over paid clowns that soccer produces year after year.
The latest episode of things happening in rugby really does make one ask ones self do I really want to be associated with this and could I find better things to do on a Saturday than be cheated out of what we believe to be fair gamesmanship amongst teams competing on what is supposed to be a level playing field.
I don't know for certain which two clubs are under investigation and to be quite honest I don't care who they are, if they have broken the rules, saints included, the sanctions against them should be imposed WITHOUT all this messing about and fans wondering who is screwing it all up.
Soccer now has two major inquiries underway which I hope throw the book at someone / some clubs / some organizations and rugby should start getting its house in order or those people who are 'thinking' about coming to games week after week will just go else where.

Chris,

I've taken the liberty of turning your excellent post into an article as it gives the Eds a little breathing space "story-wise" whilst we sort other stuff out.

Kind regards

Phil

Perhaps a petition could be started so disillusioned supporters across all clubs can show we are not happy and try make premiership rugby come clean.

I did have a similar thought Northampton Lad, but wouldn't know where to start.

----------------------------------------

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Playing devils advocate, has the league not become more competitive over the last few years and generally, each team can beat each other. In recent history, Wasps, Sale, Tigers, Harlequins, Saints and Saracens have won the pay off. Welsh, Bristol, Leeds, Falcons, Worcester have gone down and up no one team is constantly at the bottom. The only where we are struggling as a league is in Europe with the last English winner being wasps. Attendances and coverage has also increased. I agree that things behind the scenes needs sorting no doubt about it but I love rugby and am quite enthusiastic about our league as I believe it to be in quite good health at present.

Disagree Andy/Devil, yes on a level playing field teams do have a better chance of beating each other, allowing one or two clubs to steal a march by spending markedly more without recourse whilst the other ten stick to the rules, then your playing field is not going to be level for too long. And when that ten are complicit too in a wall of silence well I fear for the game at the top club level and am anything but enthusiastic.

I absolutely see your point Chris but am quite positive as there is a lot at stake for a lot of clubs as all apart from 2 cannot afford to overspend. I think the resignation of Sarries chief is significant as is the loss of Ashton and Strettle. I think teams will be brought in line and a fresh chance granted to all in the summer to abide by a cap with the slate wiped. Punishing any cap breakers now would be counter productive I think but by making them get their accounts in order and comply now will get any integrity back.

If they've profited by winning trophies and/or denying others either that right or European qualification or indeed relegation then they must be held to account in my view otherwise the whole things a farce. I like your optimism but having seen comments from Brian Moore today re the Bath chief exec and his antics at PRL meetings, confirmed by no less than four other attendees then I don't think all clubs are for coming into line some time soon, whatever others have done to balance their books if indeed that is the case.

It depends how far breach goes back in my view. If it's a one off with one club then punish all the way. If it's more than one club over a sustained period of time then they've created a precedent by ignoring it, it would be hard to trace everything back and in my view those administering the cap are equally to blame.

I have to say. I agreed with an awful lot of what has been said here.

I watched the final, but felt no emotional attachment and didn't really care who won. I turned over as soon as the final whistle went too.

I also have yet to renew my ST, I also still don't know if I'll bother. The money men driving the league, requesting their pound of flesh have opened up watching Saints at most opportunities to me from the comfort of my sofa.

That's my very point from the start Andy, if there's been things swept under the carpet and all clubs are aware then all clubs are complicit, I see little point in further sweeping just to protect the guilty, if this is true, its a disease that has to be cut out the game not a slapped wrist behind closed doors because that does set the precedent for a free for all, you didn't prosecute them, you can't prosecute me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:05:30:20:43:17 by Chris G.

AndySaint - the league has become more competitive (arguably better standard of play) due to the levelling impact of the cap and the Play Offs. And now we see certain teams allegedly trying to tilt the playing field in their favour.

When the Play Offs were introduced, it was a 11 - 1 vote, the majority ruled, some may argue for their commercial benefit but in any case it was a majority. It would appear that today, a minority rule for their commercial benefit and to the great detriment of clubs less financially stable than Saints and Tigers but be under no illusion, both of our clubs will struggle if it becomes a pure rich man's playground.

I'm afraid I take an even more cynical view that most big business is corrupt to varying degrees. Governments make up laws and big firms of consultants etc make big bucks from trying to find ways to bend the rules.

Perhaps the question should be... are the owners of your club going to bend the rules enough to keep up with the other leading clubs in developing their product?

In the case of Rugby I think they should be more worried about whether there will be enough clubs prepared to keep up.

It might get quite boring if there are only four or five clubs that can compete on an even footing.

Quote:

Stopsy
It would appear that today, a minority rule for their commercial benefit and to the great detriment of clubs less financially stable than Saints and Tigers but be under no illusion, both of our clubs will struggle if it becomes a pure rich man's playground.

^ totally agree Stopsy. It is also pretty evident that BT sport an sky are happily compliant in the 'minority rule' situation and the glorification of superstars.

Excellent post Chris.

My first thought on Sarries winning was Well Played. My second thought was Well Bought.

Quote:

Flinstone Saint
I did have a similar thought Northampton Lad, but wouldn't know where to start.

Don't know if you're on Twitter but worth asking @thePenGW as they set up a petition recently to save the Scottish sevens team that seemed to get a fair amount of response. May need to let the hangover after trip to final in Belfast get out of system first mind!

Personal view is this needs to be asked but with world cup there's such a small window. Start something now and it may come across as sour grapes, start too late and it's going to get lost.

Chris,

While the sentiments of your article are clear you are basing far too much of your case on supositions. All that is in the public domain is a lot of gossip and the postponement statements by PRL.

No-one knows what individuals have been paid by their clubs.

We should note that there have been sarries fans on here pointing out that they unearthed quite a few diamonds overlooked by others and I speculate that some of these may have been on modest salaries at the beginning. However as contracts come up for review...

What I suspect from the tone of the PRL statements is that one or more clubs has interpreted something in the agreement differently to the others, and said that they stand by their interpretation and are prepared for it to be tested in a court. The point is that these clubs may have been constantly looking for ways to stretch the cap agreement where others were not, which would be a source of friction and discontent.

In order to avoid this court scenario - and sports organisations generally try to stay out of the courts, look at the Patriots case recently in the NFL, PRL may have gone to arbitration of the closed doors kind, there may be a conditional agreement that we all agree that there was a fault in the agreement but from next season, or as players contracts fall due, arrangements must be changed.

All this is pure speculation on my part. But what I know from 40 years business experience including some dispute arbitration, is that black and white doesn't exist.

There's also a fair amount of supposition in your post over what and what I might not have said and as you admit pure speculation on other reasons as to what might actually have happened on your part. You're right none of us here knows exactly, thats why I said at the end of the initial post about PRL could quash these 'rumours' at a stroke by releasing a statement. Its simple.

But this isn't just ramblings from some disgruntled bloke on a message board its across the media too and from people with the ear of those present in the meetings and some reporting of events, in the broadsheets especially, very detailed as to what happened. You also seem to think I'm singling out the one club, I'm not I'm collectively including them all, including my own, lets not try and turn this into its all a sour grapes thing, its not, its a genuine concern on the future of the game at this level.

To say nothing at all just adds fuel when a simple statement saying either
A: nothing here, move on, media reports are erroneous, nothing to worry about, all is above board
B: an investigation is indeed ongoing, thats all we have to say at this time (without mentioning clubs)
C: we are seeking legal clarification on a few technical points of the administration of the cap to be reported at a later date

But no nothing, which leaves everything up in the air. I suppose some might argue its their business to run PRL they can do what they like, well I take a different view, they are only the guardians of the game, entrusted to do the honorable thing on behalf of OUR clubs, not operate a cartel seemingly shrouded in secrecy.

Can someone anyone on here who knows that saracens have breached the salary cap tell me what evidence they have. Edward Griffiths left by mutual agreement with the board. I assume no one on here was privy to that either. Ashton I understand is not leaving. Strettle is off to Clermont.

I would still like someone/anyone to tell what proof they have. I have none. So will not accuse any club. Being investigated is never the same as guilty.

I believe FIFA have been saying much the same thing for many years Mal.

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I have no idea who is breaking what but that really made me chuckle Flinstone Saint.

Oh dear the camel police think this is all about them again, as ever, not bothered to read the thing yet on the defensive as always.

Quote:

SaintMaul
Excellent post Chris.
My first thought on Sarries winning was Well Played. My second thought was Well Bought.

If you are alleging you have proof Saracens have breached the salary cap I would live you to explain who Saracens are paying loads of money to that Saints are not. It seems to me that Saints have a similar number of high profile players as do Saracens. So what proof do you have? I will wait for the proof especially before accusing another club of it.

Quote:

Chris G
Oh dear the camel police think this is all about them again, as ever, not bothered to read the thing yet on the defensive as always.

If posters on here insist on quoting a tainted final that involves Saracens & Bath & breached salary caps what take would you like us to take. That you think it's Saints & Tigers the losing semi finalists. London Welsh & Newcastle the bottom two. If you are all on here quoting 2 clubs which 2 are you incinuating? Using name would clear it up if you are defiantly not talking about Saracens

[quote Flinstone Saint]I believe FIFA have been saying much the same thing for many years


I am only pointing out that what proof does anyone have that it is Saracens & Bath & not anyone else including Saints. I am not saying it hasn't happened or that PRL know & overlook it or that they don't know or it hasn't happened. Only that it can only be Saracens &/or Bath. Saints had a well deserved win last year maybe it is Saints. Maybe it has to be the winner of the premiership whoever that is, I don't know neither do any of you on here. There is no problem with discussing the salary cap & possible breaches just gets tedious when it can only be Saracens &/or Bath & not Saints, Tigers, Quins etc

Enfield Mal. I'm afraid it won't be long before your bubble bursts.

Saint 'til I die

Quote:

Howlin
Enfield Mal. I'm afraid it won't be long before your bubble bursts.

You assume that I believe everything I reaf/hear well I don't unlike some on here. Maybe Saracens have breached the salary cap, maybe they haven't. Maybe Bath have/haven't. Maybe Saints/Tigers have/haven't. Who knows I don't & you don't. I just don't accuse & talk about tainted finals. If talking about increasing the salary cap to compete with France/Ireland is proof of breaking the salary cap then that's the end of free speech.

I just don't believe everything I read in the newspapers & I surprised when others do considering the corruption proved against most of them. They write to sell papers not necessarily the truth just whatever sells.

You're not getting that this is an attack on all clubs including our own for the wall of silence.

But as Shakespeare once said "The camel doth protest too much, methinks" Though on reflection better an ostrich.