Newcastle United
Player Ratings v Stoke City (H)
By Wasim
September 28 2010
Tyne-Talk's player rater Wasim4nufc has granted Cheick Tiote the higher points for his performance during Sunday's game against Stoke City at St James' Park. Read on to see how the rest of the team faired.
Player Ratings
Tim Krul (6.5) - After a slightly shaky start he looked comfortable and dealt well with one or two crosses and corners.
James Perch (6) - Unfortunately he conceded the goal that cost us the game but apart from that he actually had a good game.
Fabricio Coloccini (6) - He certainly looked good in possession as always but had one or two moments where Kenwyne Jones had the better of him.
Mike Williamson (6) - Another good display although it was difficult coping with Stoke's aerial assault in the second half.
Jose Enrique (7) - One of our better players on the day. Always looking to get forward and almost set up a goal with a great run in the first half.
Wayne Routledge (6.5) - He struggled to get a hold of the game, although he did have a few good moments too, where his pace caused Stoke a few problems.
Cheick Tiote (7.5) - A thoroughly impressive display from the defensive midfielder. He showed he had the pace, skill and strength to be a quality player in this league and it was a surprise to see him substituted in the second half.
Joey Barton (7) - After a very good first half, he dropped a lot deeper in the second half as we struggled to maintain our first half dominance. Wasn't as effective then but still his form is looking very good thus far.
Hatem Ben Arfa (6.5) - He showed glimpses of his talent but was not in the game enough for my liking. He was substituted after the hour mark which to me was one of the mistakes Chris Houghton made.
Kevin Nolan (6.5) - Took his penalty very well and he had a good game overall. He worked very hard and nearly scored an equaliser towards the end as well.
Andy Carroll (5.5) - It wasn't his best day at the office. He did manage to win the penalty and almost scored with a well struck half volley but other than that he struggled to dominate in the air and was well below par today. He'll learn from the game though but what it did prove is that his not ready for an England call up at the moment.
Substitutes
Jonas Gutierrez (7) - Looked lively when coming on and even got one or two decent crosses into the box as well.
Shola Ameobi (6) - Failed to make an impact.
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Discussion started by TyneTalk (IP Logged), 28/09/2010 07:57
28/09/2010 07:57
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I agree with a few of your scores Wasim pal but dont know how you can score Perch the same as Williamson and Colo. I dont want to kick a kid when he is down but he was so out of his depth.
He lost Huth on the back post for the first (even though I felt Huth climbed a bit on him then lost him again and put the ball in his own net for the second. Thats not mentioning his distribution which was poor.
Williamson had a tough game and gave away possession a bit cheap in the second half but taking off Tiote didnt help that.
I thought Colo was our best player and a steadying influence at the back. With Stoke at times just having the one up front he was like an old fashioned sweeper. I think Tunyc made the point on another thread that he isnt the best in the air, which is fair enough, but its nice to have a Colo playing with confidence as he can get the ball moving on the deck. Jones is a real handfull so would give most players a torrid time when his head is right.
I know Nolan scored the penalty but i really didnt see anything else from him and Carroll put himself about more than him.
Cheers for doing the ratings though mate.
He lost Huth on the back post for the first (even though I felt Huth climbed a bit on him then lost him again and put the ball in his own net for the second. Thats not mentioning his distribution which was poor.
Williamson had a tough game and gave away possession a bit cheap in the second half but taking off Tiote didnt help that.
I thought Colo was our best player and a steadying influence at the back. With Stoke at times just having the one up front he was like an old fashioned sweeper. I think Tunyc made the point on another thread that he isnt the best in the air, which is fair enough, but its nice to have a Colo playing with confidence as he can get the ball moving on the deck. Jones is a real handfull so would give most players a torrid time when his head is right.
I know Nolan scored the penalty but i really didnt see anything else from him and Carroll put himself about more than him.
Cheers for doing the ratings though mate.
Carroll's runs were very flat. He's got to bend them in front of defenders. The one time he did, he drew the penalty. Otherwise, Sorensen wasn't troubled by a high ball.
Krul should get a higher rating-what did he do wrong? He was great in the air-7.5/8 for me. Same with Williamson, though he was caught in possession a couple times-I'd give him a 7.
Perch? He cost us both goals (w/an assist from Jose on the first) and couldn't contain Etherington-4.5 for me.
Can't get my mind around the suggestion that Routledge & HBA were equally effective. Our midfield died when Hatem left. 5/5.5 for Rout, 7 for HBA (would be higher, but those FKs were atrocious; if that's his best Barton should take them).
BB-I'm not contesting Colo's score because of his problems in the air. He's having a great season and we're benefiting from it, but against Stoke his one weakness was exposed. I can live with that. Maybe it would have been better to start Sol, especially considering Colo did start in midweek. Re: Nolan-I agree with you. The miss off the volley in the second half is one he has to get-I'm guessing wor Kev agrees.
Krul should get a higher rating-what did he do wrong? He was great in the air-7.5/8 for me. Same with Williamson, though he was caught in possession a couple times-I'd give him a 7.
Perch? He cost us both goals (w/an assist from Jose on the first) and couldn't contain Etherington-4.5 for me.
Can't get my mind around the suggestion that Routledge & HBA were equally effective. Our midfield died when Hatem left. 5/5.5 for Rout, 7 for HBA (would be higher, but those FKs were atrocious; if that's his best Barton should take them).
BB-I'm not contesting Colo's score because of his problems in the air. He's having a great season and we're benefiting from it, but against Stoke his one weakness was exposed. I can live with that. Maybe it would have been better to start Sol, especially considering Colo did start in midweek. Re: Nolan-I agree with you. The miss off the volley in the second half is one he has to get-I'm guessing wor Kev agrees.
yeah thought Colo and Williamson did better than Perch. Nolan and Carroll were pretty minging.
hba was given a score only bettered by three starters?
i'd give him a 5 for sunday. he was negative in possession and surely the whole point of a player like him is to have a go. if it doesnt work, pick yourself up and try again next week. he gave up after about 5 mins i reckon. if thats harsh on the new guy, so be it. i'm sure he'll be better next time out, but i'd have taken him off at half time. whether his showing is put down to the player or the hard working defence of stoke city, thats immaterial as the end result is the same. no impact, no danger. and to see him walk away from the second free kick awarded on the left...what on earth? do we take it from that that he will only attend the kicks which he is chosen to take? really? i hope the keepers we face dont cotton on.
to give routledge the same score as hatem when he had his best game of the season so far is tough on him. he didngt get much change out of the defence either, but boy did he try. he went for broke, and his play was the most likely source of a goal for me. he'll have better luck in future games too, but he deserved his in this match.
a quick point about carroll wasim, he won loads of balls in the air, but the decision to play a a five man midfield meant he was knocking them into empty space. shola or lovenkrands may have made something of these balls, or maybe even ben arfa had he been asked to play higher up.
overall, lets not over-react to a bad day. what we know about hugton is that he is a manager who reacts to such days positively by working on tactical changes, rather than a stubborn sod like certain other managers we have had, who would play the exact same match again if we had the chance to try again.
i'd give him a 5 for sunday. he was negative in possession and surely the whole point of a player like him is to have a go. if it doesnt work, pick yourself up and try again next week. he gave up after about 5 mins i reckon. if thats harsh on the new guy, so be it. i'm sure he'll be better next time out, but i'd have taken him off at half time. whether his showing is put down to the player or the hard working defence of stoke city, thats immaterial as the end result is the same. no impact, no danger. and to see him walk away from the second free kick awarded on the left...what on earth? do we take it from that that he will only attend the kicks which he is chosen to take? really? i hope the keepers we face dont cotton on.
to give routledge the same score as hatem when he had his best game of the season so far is tough on him. he didngt get much change out of the defence either, but boy did he try. he went for broke, and his play was the most likely source of a goal for me. he'll have better luck in future games too, but he deserved his in this match.
a quick point about carroll wasim, he won loads of balls in the air, but the decision to play a a five man midfield meant he was knocking them into empty space. shola or lovenkrands may have made something of these balls, or maybe even ben arfa had he been asked to play higher up.
overall, lets not over-react to a bad day. what we know about hugton is that he is a manager who reacts to such days positively by working on tactical changes, rather than a stubborn sod like certain other managers we have had, who would play the exact same match again if we had the chance to try again.
You are aware that Ben Arfa was man-marked the entire time? This freed us up down the flanks-Jose did pretty well with that opportunity. Routledge did a lot of running with no end product and Perch not only had his defensive lapses but failed to get a touch on Jose's brilliant cross.
Carroll didn't win @#$%& where it mattered. Okay, he can knock down a goal kick 10 yards into the attacking half with defenders backing off him. In the box, he was completely ineffective. A lot of refs would not have given the penalty; Frankly, it looked like big Andy went down real easy. Since teams took notice of him after the hat trick he has looked out of ideas to me. The only overreaction I see is to the hype around Carroll.
Carroll didn't win @#$%& where it mattered. Okay, he can knock down a goal kick 10 yards into the attacking half with defenders backing off him. In the box, he was completely ineffective. A lot of refs would not have given the penalty; Frankly, it looked like big Andy went down real easy. Since teams took notice of him after the hat trick he has looked out of ideas to me. The only overreaction I see is to the hype around Carroll.
ah, man marked. thats that then. are we to understand that such a tactic should be so effective against him? this mercurial ball carrier is not going to be a threat when a team simply decide to stop him? i didnt see anyone get much extra space by the way. like i said, he'll have better games than this, as will our coach in response to such tactics.
as for that donkey carroll, i saw him win plenty of headers in exactly the right places, but there was no-one to win them for. once that was established, where is his incentive? what was asked of him in this match, if he was to go up against the big men to win balls which no-one would benefit from? i'd hope he asked this of the manager afterwards, but as i said above, lets not go over the top. things are still on the up, its only one match.
as for that donkey carroll, i saw him win plenty of headers in exactly the right places, but there was no-one to win them for. once that was established, where is his incentive? what was asked of him in this match, if he was to go up against the big men to win balls which no-one would benefit from? i'd hope he asked this of the manager afterwards, but as i said above, lets not go over the top. things are still on the up, its only one match.
Quote:tunyc
You are aware that Ben Arfa was man-marked the entire time? This freed us up down the flanks-Jose did pretty well with that opportunity. Routledge did a lot of running with no end product and Perch not only had his defensive lapses but failed to get a touch on Jose's brilliant cross.
Carroll didn't win @#$%& where it mattered. Okay, he can knock down a goal kick 10 yards into the attacking half with defenders backing off him. In the box, he was completely ineffective. A lot of refs would not have given the penalty; Frankly, it looked like big Andy went down real easy. Since teams took notice of him after the hat trick he has looked out of ideas to me. The only overreaction I see is to the hype around Carroll.
adopts columbo voice "oh, er, just one more thing, mr tunyc...why did you bring perch into this?"
the rest of it seemed directed at my first post. whats perch got to do with that?
Thanks for the comments lads.
I think Perch is getting some harsh treatment. He wasn't as bad as people are saying. I do agree that Colo and Williamson had decent games but I just feel that as our two central defenders they couldn't handle the aerial assault from Stoke and that's where things went wrong in the second half. Chris Houghton's substitutions didn't work out as well so that didn't help but like lmk says, it's just one match and we are still on the up.
I agree with the first part. I thought he didn't win enough balls where it mattered. As for the penalty I don't blame him for going down "easily", for it was a penalty in my book. There has been a lot of hype around Carroll but it's too early to say whether he has lived up to it or not. It was a bad day at the office but even the very best have those days, so as long as he learns from these days he'll be a better striker for it.
Wasim's Sport Blog
Toon4life
I think Perch is getting some harsh treatment. He wasn't as bad as people are saying. I do agree that Colo and Williamson had decent games but I just feel that as our two central defenders they couldn't handle the aerial assault from Stoke and that's where things went wrong in the second half. Chris Houghton's substitutions didn't work out as well so that didn't help but like lmk says, it's just one match and we are still on the up.
Quote:Tunyc
Carroll didn't win @#$%& where it mattered. Okay, he can knock down a goal kick 10 yards into the attacking half with defenders backing off him. In the box, he was completely ineffective. A lot of refs would not have given the penalty; Frankly, it looked like big Andy went down real easy. Since teams took notice of him after the hat trick he has looked out of ideas to me. The only overreaction I see is to the hype around Carroll.
I agree with the first part. I thought he didn't win enough balls where it mattered. As for the penalty I don't blame him for going down "easily", for it was a penalty in my book. There has been a lot of hype around Carroll but it's too early to say whether he has lived up to it or not. It was a bad day at the office but even the very best have those days, so as long as he learns from these days he'll be a better striker for it.
Wasim's Sport Blog
Toon4life
I don't know what some people have against Perch. He is not that bad. And saying he cost us a goal because he didn't get on the end of Jose's cross/shot is just unfair.
And as for giving a guy credit for being effectively man marked is a bit rich. I never had a coach tell me I played well because I did a really good job at getting man marked.
That isn't to say that Ben Arfa had a bad game. He didn't. Stoke just allowed him less space and that is going to be the norm for Ben Arfa in this league, he has to be good enough to shine despite that added attention.
The result could have easily been different in my opinion. That is always the case against Stoke. They play such a negative luck orientated game that a bounce of the ball either way is the only difference between an ugly win for us or a frustrating loss.
I wouldn't get to down about it. Just remember Stoke fans have a watch that @#$%& every week.
And as for giving a guy credit for being effectively man marked is a bit rich. I never had a coach tell me I played well because I did a really good job at getting man marked.
That isn't to say that Ben Arfa had a bad game. He didn't. Stoke just allowed him less space and that is going to be the norm for Ben Arfa in this league, he has to be good enough to shine despite that added attention.
The result could have easily been different in my opinion. That is always the case against Stoke. They play such a negative luck orientated game that a bounce of the ball either way is the only difference between an ugly win for us or a frustrating loss.
I wouldn't get to down about it. Just remember Stoke fans have a watch that @#$%& every week.
Quote:OnTheLevee
That isn't to say that Ben Arfa had a bad game. He didn't. Stoke just allowed him less space and that is going to be the norm for Ben Arfa in this league, he has to be good enough to shine despite that added attention.
I agree, he needs to beat the marking, but someone needs to be in the middle of the pitch pushing forward so he can release. Nolan wasn't moving into position to alleviate pressure, Barton was dropping too far back, and Carroll was being swamped by Huth with no one to run the gaps.
We have two really good dribblers (Arfa and Jonas) and two really fast players (Loven and Routledge), and two players who can score out of nothing (Shola and Nolan). Those guys need to be running the gaps for Caroll and the holding mids, otherwise our wide men will be man-marked for 90 minutes and Carroll will be frustrated. Having any striker alone without people running off him just doesn't work. The 4-5-1, or 4-4-1-1 as we are calling it, still requires that people are running the gaps and getting onto the flicks and nods from the Center Forward. The only difference is that you're relying on midfielders/wingers to shoot the gaps instead of another forward.
Barton will thread the pass through the defense, we've seen him do it plenty of times. But someone has to be there to get it. Carroll will put it over the top behind the center backs, but someone has to run onto it. When no one attempts to move in front of Carroll, we have a problem.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010:09:29:06:29:17 by waffles.
spot on waffles. i think we have a coach who understands when things arent working, so his next puzzle is to solve the problems outlined in waffles post, and work out how to create chances against the stokes of this league. there are enough of them, by the way, who will approach their game at st james in exactly the same way
The point about the man-marking, and why I brought up Perch, is that the extra attention to HBA freed the flanks. (Sometimes that's how dangerous players contribute-not directly but by absorbing the defense's attention. See how Kuyt benefitted from Torres the last couple seasons?) The left side made something of that. The right side did a whole lot of pointless running around. I'd drop both Routledge and Perch. I find it interesting that you guys are all over HBA for not beating a guy (often two guys) but you don't criticize the guys who were necessarily left unmarked because of it and made nothing of the opportunity.
As for Carroll winning balls-I'll be watching the replay as soon as they show it here and I'll tally them. One thing I will say is that we need to get matched up on the right guys for set pieces. Stoke had Huth, Shawcross, Jones and Fuller when he came on up for every FK; they should have been covered, every time, by Williamson, Colo, Nolan and Carroll. Not 5'11" James Perch.
As for Carroll winning balls-I'll be watching the replay as soon as they show it here and I'll tally them. One thing I will say is that we need to get matched up on the right guys for set pieces. Stoke had Huth, Shawcross, Jones and Fuller when he came on up for every FK; they should have been covered, every time, by Williamson, Colo, Nolan and Carroll. Not 5'11" James Perch.
no-one is all over ban arfa. but i expected more from 'the best french player of his generation'/'potentially the best french player ever', (depending on who you listen to), and frankly i expect better next time out, and further improvement after that.
he did so much more with the ball at everton, tunyc, have you caught a replay of that game yet? the everton mids were right up inside him, he wriggled away time and again to run the ball ten yards then pass forwards. like i said, some credit may well be due to the stoke defence, but read that back, its not like we were playing some fantastic side, it was just stoke.
a bad day at the office, he's allowed one, lets call a spade a spade here though. he repeatedly turned away from the goal when he got the ball, maybe he took a kick, maybe he wasnt feeling 100pc, but the best players are brave enough to try when they arent already on top
he did so much more with the ball at everton, tunyc, have you caught a replay of that game yet? the everton mids were right up inside him, he wriggled away time and again to run the ball ten yards then pass forwards. like i said, some credit may well be due to the stoke defence, but read that back, its not like we were playing some fantastic side, it was just stoke.
a bad day at the office, he's allowed one, lets call a spade a spade here though. he repeatedly turned away from the goal when he got the ball, maybe he took a kick, maybe he wasnt feeling 100pc, but the best players are brave enough to try when they arent already on top
I haven't seen the EFC game and probably won't, unfortunately.
HBA, like the rest of the team, did not have a good game against Stoke. BUT, I think expectations are a bit high. He is very good but not at all the best French player of his generation-Benzema, Ribery, Diarra, Gourcuff, Nasri et al. are some stiff competition. We can't expect him or Carroll to win games singlehandedly. They may do so occasionally, but that's a bonus. They're two parts of a squad.
Fair enough, he had a bad day. But humor me-how would you describe the performance of Routledge and Perch?
HBA, like the rest of the team, did not have a good game against Stoke. BUT, I think expectations are a bit high. He is very good but not at all the best French player of his generation-Benzema, Ribery, Diarra, Gourcuff, Nasri et al. are some stiff competition. We can't expect him or Carroll to win games singlehandedly. They may do so occasionally, but that's a bonus. They're two parts of a squad.
Fair enough, he had a bad day. But humor me-how would you describe the performance of Routledge and Perch?
so we now agree on ben arfa. he'll win some games, but by his nature do a lot less in some others. its nothing to do with expecting too much, simply pointing out that bad day is nothing more or less than that. it wasnt me who said such things about him being a potential great, these quotes were littered throughout the articles which appeared when he signed. he's certainly good enough for us, how good remains to be seen.
routledge is possibly not even the best player of his year at his school, so its fair to judge him differently. i thought he applied himself well, varied his approach, and worked hard for the whole game. with luck, he would have an assist, and he was not the reason we didnt score more goals. in short, he was better than i have seen him so far this season, so for the two players to both rate 6.5 was enough to bring me to comment on it. i know which i'd drop first, if thats what you're getting at mind. ben arfa will have more good days than routledge.
why perch?
routledge is possibly not even the best player of his year at his school, so its fair to judge him differently. i thought he applied himself well, varied his approach, and worked hard for the whole game. with luck, he would have an assist, and he was not the reason we didnt score more goals. in short, he was better than i have seen him so far this season, so for the two players to both rate 6.5 was enough to bring me to comment on it. i know which i'd drop first, if thats what you're getting at mind. ben arfa will have more good days than routledge.
why perch?
Ben Arfa is going to spend much of his career being described as the mercurial genious just like Robert was, he'll have games where he'll win it single handedly and there'll be games where people will forget he was even on the pitch but personally i feel the team is much better with him in it.
We need to drop routledge and bring back jonas, his direct play is a threat to all teams whereas many just let routledge run the ball out of play like he does so often, jonas will bring us more freekicks with his trickery and isn't just a 1 trick pony like routledge.
We need to drop routledge and bring back jonas, his direct play is a threat to all teams whereas many just let routledge run the ball out of play like he does so often, jonas will bring us more freekicks with his trickery and isn't just a 1 trick pony like routledge.
Whatever scale you judge Routledge on as a player in abstract, the question is: should he be in this squad?
To me, the answer is a clear 'no'.
You say he might have had an assist. Must have missed that exchange-but in about 30 minutes, Jonas provided Nolan a cross for our best chance of the second half, one Nolan should have finished. The choice is clearly between Jonas and Rout. Not sure how one chooses the latter.
The reason I bring up Perch is that I find it breathtaking that more people see HBA's performance as a talking point than Perch's struggles, which directly cost us the game.
To me, the answer is a clear 'no'.
You say he might have had an assist. Must have missed that exchange-but in about 30 minutes, Jonas provided Nolan a cross for our best chance of the second half, one Nolan should have finished. The choice is clearly between Jonas and Rout. Not sure how one chooses the latter.
The reason I bring up Perch is that I find it breathtaking that more people see HBA's performance as a talking point than Perch's struggles, which directly cost us the game.
??? perch has attracted little praise if any since he arrived tunyc - and i doubt anyone thought he was more of a talking point after sundays game than he has been after any other. we all recognise right back as a weakness, nothing changed in that regard this week, did it?
ben arfa was great the week before, i cant be the only one who saw a home game against weaker opposition as a chance for him to make a mark. when it didnt happen i commented, but not to condemn him, just to point out the gap between expectation and the actual match. its sport, it happens.
routledge again, is a player we know all about. somewhere between too good for the championship and short of the confidence to really make his mark in the prem. again, nothing changed in that regard last week, but he had his best game yet. had he made a goal, it may have helped him, but as i said last night, he'd be the one to make way for a change next time out. as to good enough for the squad, well, thats further than i woul dgo. he did plenty to get this squad into the prem this season, and we havent yet developed the whole squad beyond a player of his calibre being useful to it. it would be nice to have a fantastic squad of top drawer players, but we all know newcastle arent at that stage just now. did you mean squad, or first team? i hadnt realised he was so low in your opinions.
ben arfa was great the week before, i cant be the only one who saw a home game against weaker opposition as a chance for him to make a mark. when it didnt happen i commented, but not to condemn him, just to point out the gap between expectation and the actual match. its sport, it happens.
routledge again, is a player we know all about. somewhere between too good for the championship and short of the confidence to really make his mark in the prem. again, nothing changed in that regard last week, but he had his best game yet. had he made a goal, it may have helped him, but as i said last night, he'd be the one to make way for a change next time out. as to good enough for the squad, well, thats further than i woul dgo. he did plenty to get this squad into the prem this season, and we havent yet developed the whole squad beyond a player of his calibre being useful to it. it would be nice to have a fantastic squad of top drawer players, but we all know newcastle arent at that stage just now. did you mean squad, or first team? i hadnt realised he was so low in your opinions.
Among the three wingers, Arfa and Jonas are the ones most likely to produce over 90 minutes. Routledge has a place though. I feel like at 60 minutes or later, he's the guy you want coming off the bench, not Jonas. His pace and agility will cause far more problems when the opponent is tired then when they are at equal strength.
When we play home games I would like to see Routledge and Jonas on the wings and Arfa behind Carroll, which means nolan has to sit deeper or be dropped, away games then Jonas and Arfa on the wings and then Nolan behind Carroll
agreed ttid. hard to do in practice, but for now i'd only (mainly) use nolan away from home.
i think there could be an argument made for having two players ahead of ben arfa though, rather than the two wide men both playing. all are experiments that have great merit whilst the team develops though, and i'd like to see each formation/tactic tried out unless an obvious winner was found trying out one of them before the others
i think there could be an argument made for having two players ahead of ben arfa though, rather than the two wide men both playing. all are experiments that have great merit whilst the team develops though, and i'd like to see each formation/tactic tried out unless an obvious winner was found trying out one of them before the others
Quote:TOONTILLIDIE
When we play home games I would like to see Routledge and Jonas on the wings and Arfa behind Carroll, which means nolan has to sit deeper or be dropped, away games then Jonas and Arfa on the wings and then Nolan behind Carroll
Well thats seems to have went t@ts up
Sorry, guys-been out of town working 12-hour days with very little access to teh webz. Spent all my free time drinking, anyway.
So the situation has changed now but I would have kept Routledge on the bench in any case. Now he has to start, and do well. C'mon wor Wayne!
So the situation has changed now but I would have kept Routledge on the bench in any case. Now he has to start, and do well. C'mon wor Wayne!
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