Somerset
Where is the four day paddle coming from?
By Grockle
June 9 2015
Marcus looks at the toe of his bat, Somerset look at the toe of the CC1 and Matthew Maynard looks at his newish batting order and must wonder where the paddle is going to come from to help him steer his county back up the turgid brown creek it finds itself becalmed in.
It really hasn't worked has it?
Something is not clicking in Somerset's batting order and it may be becoming a bit of a worry for the new DoC and his band of not so merry selectors and coaches. The departure of David Houghton at the start of the season put Matthew Maynard in the firing line and the performance of his recent batting line-up is not making that decision look like a good one while the amount of bullets heading his way must be increasing as the Championship performance of the West Country side fails to improve by any real margin.
So what is going wrong?
We identified at the start of the year that it was vital that James Hildreth brought his best game to the season after the bright lights attracted Nick Compton back to the comfort of Middlesex. That HAS worked as the man heard the call and nearly hit 1000 runs in the month of May. So one mark in the plus column. We discarded Alviro Petersen at a time when his form dipped for his national side and did not really light any major fires in the hearths of the Taunton faithful either. We went for the spin option and brought in Abdur Rehman to bolster up our lacklustre slow attack as George Dockrell struggled to penetrate in the longer game, Jack Leach still looked a little raw and Max Waller wasn't trusted to hold batsmen without a recognisable stock ball for any format above T20. That hasn't worked particularly well as the Pakistani all rounder has not beeen anything like dangerous on the early CC1 wickets and has yet to give us any real return on the season's investment.
Who was expected to solidify the front end then? Marcus Trescothick has a pedigree as long as any great player and is one of the batsmen of his age. He is however 39 and there have been questions about his 'edge' as an opener. He seemed to put all those questions to rest with a sparkling 140 in the second match but that might have just been the 'dying of the light'. The man who was usually very diffiicult to get out once the opposition let him get in has simply, well....not got in. A few double figure starts that have turned into not a lot have been joined by far too many early new ball dismissals for very little indeed. We go into far too many games one down with almost no contribution. Watching Banger walk back with his head down is not what any Somerset supporter wants to see.... think how it must look to the men following him to the crease at just after 11:00 on the mornning of the first day of a four day game. Can we afford those kind of starts for much longer?
There were long debates about who should be the skipper's opening partner last season. Arul Suppiah was no longer there very early and his possible successor Chris Jones decided a career in sport wasn't for him after the one season. Neither were heaped with praise by the 2014 supporters so we were still looking for the number 2 at the end of last year. Two candidates seemed to come to the fore. Johann Myburgh did little wrong in his first season and even surprised a few. Tom Abell was an exciting young prospect introduced towards the end of 2014 who looked like he had been there all his life and had supporters salivating at the chance of getting him in to open. Tom was not going to be available at the very start of the new season because of university but Johann stated his intention with a debut century in his first 2016 CC1 outing. Great! That was sorted then. But unfortunately it wasn't as Johann left to learn a bit about fatherhood and Tom didn't look quite as much at home as he had on kinder late summer pitches the summer before when he got to play on a permanent basis.
The front end brings two main things to the debate. Firstly, do we need to see the captain move down the order to provide any level of effectiveness or is this the man's last season and one step too far for the mighty Somersetian? Secondly, can the other two members of the present top three make the grade in the time we can afford them or at all? As some people who read these pages know my own answer to the first is an emphatic YES. I don't think the Trescothick Era has not come to an end yet but it will if he stubbornly refuses to take a lower postion in the batting order. Maynard may have to show steel and remove his mate and captain if he will not go willingly.
The answer to the second question depends on the other 'Achilles heel' of our batting at the moment, the middle order's present inability to defend itself against any kind of aggressive bowling. Somerset batting collapses have become something of a far too regular occurence. The buying in of Jim Allenby and Tom Cooper was designed to try and add metal to the backbone of our batting line-up, the transferrence of Craig Meschede to Glamorgan for a season 'on loan' took away some backup for Pete Trego and put him more in the firing line. The loss of Craig Kieswetter, now most tragically for good, added pressure to the role of Alex Barrow as keeper/batsman. Very little seems to have worked with any of these plans. Allenby has struggled to make the change to the other side of the Bristol Channel and his bowling has been a better addition than his batting. In his case it is coming but far less quickly than we need it to. Tom Cooper was a gamble at number 3 and it simply didn't come off. He found the transition hard and we found the failure unacceptable so we rejigged the order. That had a slight effect but not enough as of yet.
So the new boys have struggled. Unfortunately, so have the 'older' boys. Pete Trego may also be looking at the reality of his golden years being behind him. He has found himself being thrust into CC1 competition too early this season and with too much to do for even him. The results have suggested that he may not be the player he used to be at this format or the lack of support around him makes the position untenable. The jury is stll out. Meawhile Mesch is killing the game with both bat and ball in Wales... Alex is having no kind of season with the bat though his performance with the gloves has been perfectly adequate.
Far, far, far, too often this season the only joy with the willow a Somerset supporter has seen has come from the tail and especially the Overton's. Their performances should be putting the cherry on top of the cake but instead they have had to pull the side together after batting disasters from the front end.
And where does that leave us? Well our bowlers seem to have taken up the gauntlet and made games of matches where our batting has been little better than abject but the lack of quality from batsmen will continue t act like a sea anchor on our ability to win games. There is very little else in the batting hutch with the loss of CK. What there is could only patch up a brief injury or add to the back end of the middle order. Lewis Gregory could offer something around the number 5 spot but without more graft and runs from the front half that will mean very little.
Can we look for more from Abell and Myburgh? I think so. We can't really wait for it but we have no other option given our present resource base. We have to have more from those working around the solidity of Hildreth and he must keep that solid. Cooper, Allenby, Trego and Barrow must do better or we will be looking down a very deep hole.
And Marcus? He could be the solution to all of our problems or he could be another tragedy in 2016. Nothing would eclipse the loss of CK's career but it may get a little too close for comfort.
As I watch England using Jos Buttler correctly for the first time and he walks off with 129 to his name off 77 balls having pushed his country to 21 runs from a 400 50 over score for the first time on home soil I wonder what might have been. We are working in his ex county with what IS and there is CONSIDERABLE work to do and little time to do it.
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Discussion started by Grockles.com , 09/06/2015 16:47
Grockles.com
09/06/2015 16:47
09/06/2015 16:47
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:14:11:03:36 by Grockle.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:14:11:03:36 by Grockle.
Grockle – firstly, nice front story.
I’ll briefly comment on Jos, seeing as you mentioned him, before I get on to the travails of SCCC.
It was great to see an England side that was explicitly setting out to score as many runs as possible. Jos at six was a step in the right direction too. But he should, almost certainly, be still higher and the reason that he had the opportunity to come off to such spectacular effect was, in part, because guys like Roy, Hales and Stokes came and went relatively quickly. In future games, if those guys stick around then we should score at a very good lick (unlike if you had Cook or Bell sticking around) but if Jos is at six there will still be a number of games where he gets little or no batting, IMO.
Now, Somerset?
First of all, it seems from Twitter that the guys are having a day off and a game of golf today. Why? Surely that time could be spent working on their CC skills? It’s not as though this was a scheduled day off – after all, we were supposed to be playing Durham today! Yes, they’ve got tomorrow to do something but I fear that will get devoted to T20 with games coming up on both Friday and Saturday.
Second, Matthew Maynard, MUST start getting other people involved in the batting coaching. Perhaps it’s too late for us to find a batting coach to be permanently contracted to SCCC for the rest of the season? If so – nevermind! In that case, MM should instead make us of private coaches like Neil Burns and Gary Palmer (each of whom have worked with Compton and in the latter case Cook) or even Graham Gooch who (unless he went back to be full-time coach at Essex?) is also presumably available. Send guys to see them or ask guys like that to drop in at Taunton in between games and give them certain, specific players with which to work. It’s simply too much for one guy to be both DOC and the batting coach, IMO. And whatever Matthew is doing, it does not seem to be working.
Third, we now know that we need to replace Craig Kieswetter – and not just for this season. I do not know what monies, if any, we have left in our CC budget for this season. But if there is a decent amount of money left, then I would make enquiries with Morne Van Wyk [www.espncricinfo.com], South African wicket-keeper, as to whether we might be able to entice him here on a 2.5 year Kolpak deal (starting very soon) or something like that. He’s played recent international cricket for South Africa but he’s also 36 so, like AP, the security of a well-paid County deal might appeal.
I’m afraid that Alex Barrow’s poor batting form seems to be beginning to affect his keeping too, as he reportedly grassed two easy catches in the Durham second dig. I’ve no reason to suppose that Van Wyk is a worse keeper than AB and, unlike Mr Barrow, Mr Van Wyk’s batting record suggests that he might be capable of being a replacement for CK in our side from a batting stand-point (both in the CC and in short form cricket, meaning we could discontinue having Tresco in the side to keep wicket). If we could get Van Wyk it might give us an almost immediate means of improving our poor batting.
Fourth – I don’t think the policy of bowler rotation is doing us many favours. LG started the season really well, then he was promptly rested for our most recent home game and then, by most accounts, was suddenly bowling without rhythm and well down on pace vs Durham. Thomas and Groenewald also seem to be in and out too. According to the Beeb commentary, it sounded as though we bowled like absolute drains after tea on day two. This club remains FAR too prone to nightmare sessions in the field in which our cricket (and our morale) appear to disintegrate.
MM said something about how a team aiming for the CC cannot afford more than a couple of really poor sessions in a season – we usually seem to manage a couple of really poor sessions in most matches. It sounded as though the batting in the second dig wasn’t actually that bad – and was against very good bowling. BUT – we wasted the chance of batting against a team largely shorn of Onions in our first dig. By Anthony Gibson’s record, every first dig Durham wicket fell to good Somerset bowling, rather than bad shots BUT 7 of 10 wickets that Durham took in our first dig were given away by our guys.
Unless the weather forecast is VERY damp, then we will presumably have to try to get Rehman back into the side for Notts on Sunday, his lacklustre form notwithstanding? I think I’d also look to try to get the experience of Thomas back in there. I think the bowling group perhaps needs some on-field leadership from a bowler – might help avoid some of those sessions where we just seem to go to pieces in the field?
I’ll briefly comment on Jos, seeing as you mentioned him, before I get on to the travails of SCCC.
It was great to see an England side that was explicitly setting out to score as many runs as possible. Jos at six was a step in the right direction too. But he should, almost certainly, be still higher and the reason that he had the opportunity to come off to such spectacular effect was, in part, because guys like Roy, Hales and Stokes came and went relatively quickly. In future games, if those guys stick around then we should score at a very good lick (unlike if you had Cook or Bell sticking around) but if Jos is at six there will still be a number of games where he gets little or no batting, IMO.
Now, Somerset?
First of all, it seems from Twitter that the guys are having a day off and a game of golf today. Why? Surely that time could be spent working on their CC skills? It’s not as though this was a scheduled day off – after all, we were supposed to be playing Durham today! Yes, they’ve got tomorrow to do something but I fear that will get devoted to T20 with games coming up on both Friday and Saturday.
Second, Matthew Maynard, MUST start getting other people involved in the batting coaching. Perhaps it’s too late for us to find a batting coach to be permanently contracted to SCCC for the rest of the season? If so – nevermind! In that case, MM should instead make us of private coaches like Neil Burns and Gary Palmer (each of whom have worked with Compton and in the latter case Cook) or even Graham Gooch who (unless he went back to be full-time coach at Essex?) is also presumably available. Send guys to see them or ask guys like that to drop in at Taunton in between games and give them certain, specific players with which to work. It’s simply too much for one guy to be both DOC and the batting coach, IMO. And whatever Matthew is doing, it does not seem to be working.
Third, we now know that we need to replace Craig Kieswetter – and not just for this season. I do not know what monies, if any, we have left in our CC budget for this season. But if there is a decent amount of money left, then I would make enquiries with Morne Van Wyk [www.espncricinfo.com], South African wicket-keeper, as to whether we might be able to entice him here on a 2.5 year Kolpak deal (starting very soon) or something like that. He’s played recent international cricket for South Africa but he’s also 36 so, like AP, the security of a well-paid County deal might appeal.
I’m afraid that Alex Barrow’s poor batting form seems to be beginning to affect his keeping too, as he reportedly grassed two easy catches in the Durham second dig. I’ve no reason to suppose that Van Wyk is a worse keeper than AB and, unlike Mr Barrow, Mr Van Wyk’s batting record suggests that he might be capable of being a replacement for CK in our side from a batting stand-point (both in the CC and in short form cricket, meaning we could discontinue having Tresco in the side to keep wicket). If we could get Van Wyk it might give us an almost immediate means of improving our poor batting.
Fourth – I don’t think the policy of bowler rotation is doing us many favours. LG started the season really well, then he was promptly rested for our most recent home game and then, by most accounts, was suddenly bowling without rhythm and well down on pace vs Durham. Thomas and Groenewald also seem to be in and out too. According to the Beeb commentary, it sounded as though we bowled like absolute drains after tea on day two. This club remains FAR too prone to nightmare sessions in the field in which our cricket (and our morale) appear to disintegrate.
MM said something about how a team aiming for the CC cannot afford more than a couple of really poor sessions in a season – we usually seem to manage a couple of really poor sessions in most matches. It sounded as though the batting in the second dig wasn’t actually that bad – and was against very good bowling. BUT – we wasted the chance of batting against a team largely shorn of Onions in our first dig. By Anthony Gibson’s record, every first dig Durham wicket fell to good Somerset bowling, rather than bad shots BUT 7 of 10 wickets that Durham took in our first dig were given away by our guys.
Unless the weather forecast is VERY damp, then we will presumably have to try to get Rehman back into the side for Notts on Sunday, his lacklustre form notwithstanding? I think I’d also look to try to get the experience of Thomas back in there. I think the bowling group perhaps needs some on-field leadership from a bowler – might help avoid some of those sessions where we just seem to go to pieces in the field?
i found it refreshing to read such a fair and balanced assessment, Grockle.
I also thought that AG made several good points. Among other things, I agree that the resting of LG appeared to have an adverse effect on his performance in the Durham match. I am sympathetic to the need to rest bowlers. But I wonder whether it would have been better to have rested LG from the T20s (I know he only bowls a few overs, but it must be a very intense experience) and let him concentrate, for now, on four day matches.
I also agree with AG about the importance of a specialist batting coach (and said this when it was first announced that MM would be assuming this role).
I don't know what the problem (if any) is. But at the moment we seem to be less than the sum of our parts.
I also thought that AG made several good points. Among other things, I agree that the resting of LG appeared to have an adverse effect on his performance in the Durham match. I am sympathetic to the need to rest bowlers. But I wonder whether it would have been better to have rested LG from the T20s (I know he only bowls a few overs, but it must be a very intense experience) and let him concentrate, for now, on four day matches.
I also agree with AG about the importance of a specialist batting coach (and said this when it was first announced that MM would be assuming this role).
I don't know what the problem (if any) is. But at the moment we seem to be less than the sum of our parts.
Its a pity to have to be critical when things just seemed to be improving but for the second time this season after being in a position of strength at the end of day one Somerset have been well beaten by a spirited Durham who just seemed to want the win more.
Batting
I don't know about MT Grockle. Its hard because we all want him to be the player he was which is perhaps unrealistic. Maybe we should be pleased that he hasn't completely lost his way like Rob Key at Kent. Dropping down the order may or may not work but as far as i know he has never dropped down previously? He may decide when that moment comes that it is sign to call it a day. While not brilliant he wasn't terrible at Durham. My issue is that I don't love the alternatives.
Myburgh is fine though we should make allowance-hes just subbing-I understand he had never opened prior to arriving at Somerset.
I know Abell opened a lot at school and for the seconds but he doesn't look convincing to me. I would like to move him down the order to protect him. Perhaps he could move back up once he got some runs. It would be such a shame if he was the sacrificial lamb of what is looking a tough season. Part of me thinks i would rather be relegated and have him and the younger players come through than hang him out to dry in a losing cause.
Kudos to Hildreth's efforts. He has really risen to the challenges of a tough first half of the season.
Cooper is becoming a big problem. I really hope he will come good but after this last game I am beginning to lose faith. I believe Allenby is improving and while he may not achieve the sort of stats he did in CC2 he still seems a good acquisition hes just batting too high for my liking. Trego hasn't had a great year and I think calling Gregory an all-rounder is to exaggerate his skills somewhat. I'm surprised that the Overton's haven't been pushed up the order a little.
Bowling
I agree with AG about the bowling rotations having a negative impact on LG. He was our top wicket taker going into the Yorks CC game and there was a moment when they were wobbling first innings where they may have cracked. They recovered and the game petered out. Perhaps LG wouldn't have made a difference. But leaving out your top wicket taker doesn't strike me as an especially confident message from leadership. LG didn't need resting hes a young man supposedly trying to impress the England selectors. Meanwhile he bowls all of his overs when going at 10 or 11 in the first 3 T20s while Allenby is bowling 2 overs at 5's. Then, during the last T20 win- Somerset's first complete T20 performance this year, LG bowled 2 good overs for 14 and a wicket and his other 2 were unused. I don't get that logic. Is part of Somersets strategy to take a guy off or leave him out when hes doing well?
Alfonso has been a great bowler for us and hes still good at death bowling but he looks undercooked and unfit. I'm not thrilled that he went to the IPL to join Mumbai's legions of coaches, then came back looking like he needed a pre-season. Its like Morgan for Middx and England. If i were Somerset i would say thats your choice but someone else will be captain. I can see why AG is calling for him to comeback to the CC side. At his best he can be a leader and a strike bowler. But i think his hearts not in it and his efforts have been a bit ropey this year. At 38 give me Overtons and Gregory every day.
I don't know whats going on with Leach, Dockerell, Waller and Tanvir but i certainly hope they're bowling some overs somewhere. They need the practice.
Solutions
Sorry AG I don't like the idea of a 36 yo South African. If thats all we can dredge up i would rather lose with Barrow and Abell. That cannot be the answer. surely surely we must have 2nd Xi batsmen or youth players? If not why not? What about minor counties? Worcs picked up Richard Oliver mid-season last year. Grockle asked many times who Somerset could have signed earlier this season. I think there are lots of good guys out there especially at 2nd div teams who are looking to make the step up. To list a few names- the likes of Josh Cobb (now at northants), Richard Kettleborough (now at Glamorgan) Shiv Thakor (now at Derbys), Matt Coles (now at Kent) are all young guys who have moved to Div 2 teams.
Granted some of these are bowlers or all rounders which we don't need. Surely though Somerset could have enticed them if they had been in the market for them? In the older bracket i reckon veterans like Wes Durston could have been drafted in as cover. I wonder if it was simply a misjudgement of the depth of batting resources. If you get these guys in and they fail and then their replacements also fail thatsa mixture of poor judgement and luck at worst If you don't cover the positions thats poor preperation in my book.
Batting
I don't know about MT Grockle. Its hard because we all want him to be the player he was which is perhaps unrealistic. Maybe we should be pleased that he hasn't completely lost his way like Rob Key at Kent. Dropping down the order may or may not work but as far as i know he has never dropped down previously? He may decide when that moment comes that it is sign to call it a day. While not brilliant he wasn't terrible at Durham. My issue is that I don't love the alternatives.
Myburgh is fine though we should make allowance-hes just subbing-I understand he had never opened prior to arriving at Somerset.
I know Abell opened a lot at school and for the seconds but he doesn't look convincing to me. I would like to move him down the order to protect him. Perhaps he could move back up once he got some runs. It would be such a shame if he was the sacrificial lamb of what is looking a tough season. Part of me thinks i would rather be relegated and have him and the younger players come through than hang him out to dry in a losing cause.
Kudos to Hildreth's efforts. He has really risen to the challenges of a tough first half of the season.
Cooper is becoming a big problem. I really hope he will come good but after this last game I am beginning to lose faith. I believe Allenby is improving and while he may not achieve the sort of stats he did in CC2 he still seems a good acquisition hes just batting too high for my liking. Trego hasn't had a great year and I think calling Gregory an all-rounder is to exaggerate his skills somewhat. I'm surprised that the Overton's haven't been pushed up the order a little.
Bowling
I agree with AG about the bowling rotations having a negative impact on LG. He was our top wicket taker going into the Yorks CC game and there was a moment when they were wobbling first innings where they may have cracked. They recovered and the game petered out. Perhaps LG wouldn't have made a difference. But leaving out your top wicket taker doesn't strike me as an especially confident message from leadership. LG didn't need resting hes a young man supposedly trying to impress the England selectors. Meanwhile he bowls all of his overs when going at 10 or 11 in the first 3 T20s while Allenby is bowling 2 overs at 5's. Then, during the last T20 win- Somerset's first complete T20 performance this year, LG bowled 2 good overs for 14 and a wicket and his other 2 were unused. I don't get that logic. Is part of Somersets strategy to take a guy off or leave him out when hes doing well?
Alfonso has been a great bowler for us and hes still good at death bowling but he looks undercooked and unfit. I'm not thrilled that he went to the IPL to join Mumbai's legions of coaches, then came back looking like he needed a pre-season. Its like Morgan for Middx and England. If i were Somerset i would say thats your choice but someone else will be captain. I can see why AG is calling for him to comeback to the CC side. At his best he can be a leader and a strike bowler. But i think his hearts not in it and his efforts have been a bit ropey this year. At 38 give me Overtons and Gregory every day.
I don't know whats going on with Leach, Dockerell, Waller and Tanvir but i certainly hope they're bowling some overs somewhere. They need the practice.
Solutions
Sorry AG I don't like the idea of a 36 yo South African. If thats all we can dredge up i would rather lose with Barrow and Abell. That cannot be the answer. surely surely we must have 2nd Xi batsmen or youth players? If not why not? What about minor counties? Worcs picked up Richard Oliver mid-season last year. Grockle asked many times who Somerset could have signed earlier this season. I think there are lots of good guys out there especially at 2nd div teams who are looking to make the step up. To list a few names- the likes of Josh Cobb (now at northants), Richard Kettleborough (now at Glamorgan) Shiv Thakor (now at Derbys), Matt Coles (now at Kent) are all young guys who have moved to Div 2 teams.
Granted some of these are bowlers or all rounders which we don't need. Surely though Somerset could have enticed them if they had been in the market for them? In the older bracket i reckon veterans like Wes Durston could have been drafted in as cover. I wonder if it was simply a misjudgement of the depth of batting resources. If you get these guys in and they fail and then their replacements also fail thatsa mixture of poor judgement and luck at worst If you don't cover the positions thats poor preperation in my book.
Nice article Grockle.
I'm afraid my main thought, MT, as it has been for a long time (based on seeing him and his results) is that I remember when it was a pleasure to anticipate visiting the ground to watch that master batsman of timing thrill everyone with the wonderful grip he had on the game when batting.
The joy he gave one in his performance was exceptional AND repeated many many times, particularly for 4/5 years after he had returned full-time to us. The sadness now is that, whether he knows it or not, anno domini has, or is catching up with him. Many less gifted batsmen have accepted the inevitable and moved down the order, AND played a significant role for their team for several extra years.
The greatest favour MM (as batting coach) could do for us is persuade him to get out of the firing line and continue to thrill us from a more comfortable place in the middle order.
I regret that since he took over from Langer, MT has never convinced me that he is natural captaincy material. And of course, in the last 2 or 3 years those troublesome ankles, interestingly alined with, IMO, his pony-like running, has not helped.
Having said all that one can only admire the tremendously positive effect his talent has given Somerset and England over the last 20+ years.
Old Boy!
I'm afraid my main thought, MT, as it has been for a long time (based on seeing him and his results) is that I remember when it was a pleasure to anticipate visiting the ground to watch that master batsman of timing thrill everyone with the wonderful grip he had on the game when batting.
The joy he gave one in his performance was exceptional AND repeated many many times, particularly for 4/5 years after he had returned full-time to us. The sadness now is that, whether he knows it or not, anno domini has, or is catching up with him. Many less gifted batsmen have accepted the inevitable and moved down the order, AND played a significant role for their team for several extra years.
The greatest favour MM (as batting coach) could do for us is persuade him to get out of the firing line and continue to thrill us from a more comfortable place in the middle order.
I regret that since he took over from Langer, MT has never convinced me that he is natural captaincy material. And of course, in the last 2 or 3 years those troublesome ankles, interestingly alined with, IMO, his pony-like running, has not helped.
Having said all that one can only admire the tremendously positive effect his talent has given Somerset and England over the last 20+ years.
Old Boy!
Marcus did not start as a natural opener Chenor. I've seen him bat as low as 8. At one time he was being groomed as an all rounder (at the time of his Aussie A hat trick). I'm not sure he's ever run much better than a pony OB.... ankles or no. :-)
Nice article Grockle.
Wickham has summed it up nicely: "we seem to be less than the sum of our parts".
The only word I would disagree with is "seem".
Unfortunately I think it is much less an issue of which eleven players we put on the field, and much more an issue as to who we have "leading" them whilst they are there.
Grizzzly
Wickham has summed it up nicely: "we seem to be less than the sum of our parts".
The only word I would disagree with is "seem".
Unfortunately I think it is much less an issue of which eleven players we put on the field, and much more an issue as to who we have "leading" them whilst they are there.
Grizzzly
Chenor Tom - I really do think that we should be trying to push Craig O up the order in the CC. In my view, he should be coming in ahead of both Gregory and Barrow. Certainly, Craig O has a better record with the bat than LG and AB and, up until the last game, I also thought he was in better batting form than either of those two, too.
As to the second XI? I'm not sure you'll find too much down there that could come in, batting wise. There's Adam Hose who does not appear to have been deemed to be good enough by anybody else to get into their first-team. At the moment Josh Davey has some sort of injury so is playing in the seconds as a batsman only - but is he really specialist batsman material for the first team? James Regan is on his way back, but management didn't even take the opportunity to give him a game (pre-injury) against NZ, which might imply that he's not really perceived to be in the running? We've got Max Waller batting fairly high in the seconds - but can anyone really see him batting top six in the CC first XI? Frankly, if Hose keeps scoring runs in the seconds, then I would probably be inclined to give him a first-team chance for us, if the incumbents do not buck up soon.
But it's when you look at the options, such as those outlined above. that I come back to scouring the world for possible Kolpak signings.
IMO, at a time when there's talk about franchise cricket, cutting the CC and all that jazz, SCCC cannot really afford to take a relaxed "rather lose with what we have," approach if there may be any alternative that involves strengthening from without.
I fully accept that he may not be doing this, but I'd love to think that MM and others are currently examining ALL conceivable angles that might help to improve our batting output, including whether or not there might be anybody that could be brought in from without to help matters.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:10:19:26:34 by AGod.
As to the second XI? I'm not sure you'll find too much down there that could come in, batting wise. There's Adam Hose who does not appear to have been deemed to be good enough by anybody else to get into their first-team. At the moment Josh Davey has some sort of injury so is playing in the seconds as a batsman only - but is he really specialist batsman material for the first team? James Regan is on his way back, but management didn't even take the opportunity to give him a game (pre-injury) against NZ, which might imply that he's not really perceived to be in the running? We've got Max Waller batting fairly high in the seconds - but can anyone really see him batting top six in the CC first XI? Frankly, if Hose keeps scoring runs in the seconds, then I would probably be inclined to give him a first-team chance for us, if the incumbents do not buck up soon.
But it's when you look at the options, such as those outlined above. that I come back to scouring the world for possible Kolpak signings.
IMO, at a time when there's talk about franchise cricket, cutting the CC and all that jazz, SCCC cannot really afford to take a relaxed "rather lose with what we have," approach if there may be any alternative that involves strengthening from without.
I fully accept that he may not be doing this, but I'd love to think that MM and others are currently examining ALL conceivable angles that might help to improve our batting output, including whether or not there might be anybody that could be brought in from without to help matters.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:10:19:26:34 by AGod.
Well balanced article Grockle,
I wish I had the answers to our many issues. Agree totally with Old Boy's posting of 17.57,I was one hoping for a change of Leadership for 2015, sadly this did not happen,likewise Alfonso as T20/20 fails to inspire me.
Thank goodness we have had Chris Gayle to enlighten our season to date.
I wish I had the answers to our many issues. Agree totally with Old Boy's posting of 17.57,I was one hoping for a change of Leadership for 2015, sadly this did not happen,likewise Alfonso as T20/20 fails to inspire me.
Thank goodness we have had Chris Gayle to enlighten our season to date.
Yes, there have been some well - balanced and sound comments made from different posters above.
The 3 T's (Trescothick, Trego and Thomas) should all be in their last year of being a professional cricketer with Somerset CCC IMO.
Cooper and Allenby have largely disappointed, and I do not see much improvement there this season.
Rehman does not seem to have his mind fully focussed with the day - to - day grind of a full season's county cricket. Dockrell has played an awful lot of International cricket with Ireland, but seems to have lost his way in County Cricket.
A couple of our "promising youngsters" (C. Overton and Gregory) are beginning to step up to the plate, but others (Abell and J. Overton) have found it more difficult.
Dibble and Waller are not considered to be worth taking a risk with in the CC, so in fairness to them we should also say thank you and good luck for the future.
We let a damn good batting coach (Dave Houghton) go when Matthew Maynard was appointed as DOC, and then immediately after appointment he said that he would act as batting coach. I think we missed a trick there in not giving the DOC's job to Mr. Houghton.
Are things as bad as they have been painted?
Well, it is going to take a lot to turn things around this season, and I do not think that we have the personnel to do it.
There are a few glimmers of hope for the future, and I have this season felt (more than in any other previous season) that a spell in Division 2 would be advantageous in developing what remains of the squad.
Of course, if relegation meant that there would be a mass exit of players to other counties, then the rebuilding process would take somewhat longer.
The 3 T's (Trescothick, Trego and Thomas) should all be in their last year of being a professional cricketer with Somerset CCC IMO.
Cooper and Allenby have largely disappointed, and I do not see much improvement there this season.
Rehman does not seem to have his mind fully focussed with the day - to - day grind of a full season's county cricket. Dockrell has played an awful lot of International cricket with Ireland, but seems to have lost his way in County Cricket.
A couple of our "promising youngsters" (C. Overton and Gregory) are beginning to step up to the plate, but others (Abell and J. Overton) have found it more difficult.
Dibble and Waller are not considered to be worth taking a risk with in the CC, so in fairness to them we should also say thank you and good luck for the future.
We let a damn good batting coach (Dave Houghton) go when Matthew Maynard was appointed as DOC, and then immediately after appointment he said that he would act as batting coach. I think we missed a trick there in not giving the DOC's job to Mr. Houghton.
Are things as bad as they have been painted?
Well, it is going to take a lot to turn things around this season, and I do not think that we have the personnel to do it.
There are a few glimmers of hope for the future, and I have this season felt (more than in any other previous season) that a spell in Division 2 would be advantageous in developing what remains of the squad.
Of course, if relegation meant that there would be a mass exit of players to other counties, then the rebuilding process would take somewhat longer.
The club will probably keep Waller for T20, IMO.
If Dibble is never going to play in the first team then it is very hard to justify retaining him, IMO.
Recruitment is difficult (because relatively small numbers of players move between Counties each year) so unless we are able to go down the Kolpak route, then we cannot afford to be saying goodbye to too many of our existing players.
Tresco and Thomas may retire. Cooper is only on a one year deal and may not be given another one.
There is no one, single, magic bullet to solve our current 2015 woes, IMO.
Rather, I think we need to keep in mind that, sometimes, it's possible to do lots of things that each, individually, make only a small difference but that, cumulatively, might be able to have enough of an effect to start turning our season around.
If Dibble is never going to play in the first team then it is very hard to justify retaining him, IMO.
Recruitment is difficult (because relatively small numbers of players move between Counties each year) so unless we are able to go down the Kolpak route, then we cannot afford to be saying goodbye to too many of our existing players.
Tresco and Thomas may retire. Cooper is only on a one year deal and may not be given another one.
There is no one, single, magic bullet to solve our current 2015 woes, IMO.
Rather, I think we need to keep in mind that, sometimes, it's possible to do lots of things that each, individually, make only a small difference but that, cumulatively, might be able to have enough of an effect to start turning our season around.
There has been some very good reading to be appreciated on this thread, starting with Grockle's excellent article, and my opinions on our current malaise would add nothing new to the debate.
I can see the argument for taking a positive view about dropping to Division Two and rebuilding from there, but my fear (apart from the one already expressed about the haemorrhage that might ensue) is that at a time when the whole nature of the CC is under considerable threat counties in the lower reaches may have diminished authority when it comes to influencing events. Our eight consecutive years in Division One must give us a bit of weight at a time of great uncertainty and I hope we can continue to be seen as among the major players.
LoL
Seventy-eight Seasons a Somerset Supporter
I can see the argument for taking a positive view about dropping to Division Two and rebuilding from there, but my fear (apart from the one already expressed about the haemorrhage that might ensue) is that at a time when the whole nature of the CC is under considerable threat counties in the lower reaches may have diminished authority when it comes to influencing events. Our eight consecutive years in Division One must give us a bit of weight at a time of great uncertainty and I hope we can continue to be seen as among the major players.
LoL
Seventy-eight Seasons a Somerset Supporter
Interesting that MT has batted down the order Grockle-Hadn't realised that, It may well give him a lease of life then-but would he be willing?
Also interested and appalled to hear from AG about the prospects from the 2nd Xi. If the most promising batsmen are Hose (whom you don't give a glowing report of) bowling all rounder Davey, young Regan who is injured and considered unready for first xi but is apparently less able with the bat than Barrow, and leg-spinner who can bat Waller its a bit of an indictment of the academy. Surely other people should be getting opportunities in the 2nds if this is all we can muster?
I reckon the balance of the squad and recruitment is certainly questionable. Even if Meschede was here would he make the team? We are flush with all-rounders. Regarding his return is he more likely to be poached by Glamorgan, another county or South Africa who currently lack all-rounders and will no doubt have been alerted by Rudolph and Ingram?
Perhaps we could persuade Peter Bowler to come out of retirement?
Joking aside the question of dropping down a division at a time of upcoming change in structure of the CC is worrying as LOL says. However I doubt a closed door policy would ever exist between divisions. Somerset should be in Div 1 on merit and currently they're not making a great case. Perhaps a more threatening spectre in the circumstance of relegation is the apparent desire of celebrity cricketers and trigger happy ECB chairmen for 'root-and-branch' change which is clearly just code for culling smaller counties. Sadly it seems to be a movement with some backing.
Also interested and appalled to hear from AG about the prospects from the 2nd Xi. If the most promising batsmen are Hose (whom you don't give a glowing report of) bowling all rounder Davey, young Regan who is injured and considered unready for first xi but is apparently less able with the bat than Barrow, and leg-spinner who can bat Waller its a bit of an indictment of the academy. Surely other people should be getting opportunities in the 2nds if this is all we can muster?
I reckon the balance of the squad and recruitment is certainly questionable. Even if Meschede was here would he make the team? We are flush with all-rounders. Regarding his return is he more likely to be poached by Glamorgan, another county or South Africa who currently lack all-rounders and will no doubt have been alerted by Rudolph and Ingram?
Perhaps we could persuade Peter Bowler to come out of retirement?
Joking aside the question of dropping down a division at a time of upcoming change in structure of the CC is worrying as LOL says. However I doubt a closed door policy would ever exist between divisions. Somerset should be in Div 1 on merit and currently they're not making a great case. Perhaps a more threatening spectre in the circumstance of relegation is the apparent desire of celebrity cricketers and trigger happy ECB chairmen for 'root-and-branch' change which is clearly just code for culling smaller counties. Sadly it seems to be a movement with some backing.
To be clear, CT, we do have other players CT - but I'm not sure where they are at present.
We have Ben Green - England U19 all-rounder. And there is George Bartlett, batsman, also an England age group cricketer. Neither is currently playing in the seconds, presumably because they are still in full-time education.
One academy batsman who is currently playing in the seconds is Sam Wyatt-Haines. I think his returns in the seconds have been modest, thus far.
We have Ben Green - England U19 all-rounder. And there is George Bartlett, batsman, also an England age group cricketer. Neither is currently playing in the seconds, presumably because they are still in full-time education.
One academy batsman who is currently playing in the seconds is Sam Wyatt-Haines. I think his returns in the seconds have been modest, thus far.
On further review, both have played a bit of second XI stuff this season. Green seems to be playing mainly for Devon, perhaps because minor counties is considered a better standard than second XI?
[www.somersetcountycc.co.uk]
Here is your Academy list, CT. If you look up these various youngsters on cricinfo then you'll see that most have made only patchy appearances at second XI level.
I think it's fair to say that, in the short-term, no cavalry is likely to be coming over the hill from this group.
Of course, to be fair to the club, the Academy is not supposed to provide short-term cavalry.
[www.somersetcountycc.co.uk]
Here is your Academy list, CT. If you look up these various youngsters on cricinfo then you'll see that most have made only patchy appearances at second XI level.
I think it's fair to say that, in the short-term, no cavalry is likely to be coming over the hill from this group.
Of course, to be fair to the club, the Academy is not supposed to provide short-term cavalry.
I know absolutely nothing about Mr Hose Chenor and I've not commented on him at all that I can remember.
Yes, to be clear, CT, I wasn't passing unfavourable comment on Mr Hose that constitutes personal opinion. I simply said that he seems to have played second XI stuff for multiple counties, without ever having been given a first-team chance.
His returns for us have been pretty good in the long form stuff. And if you look at his entry on cricinfo which lists his last several appearances for us in all second XI stuff (including T20) one notable thing is that he seems to have made ZERO single figure scores. So he may, possibly, be a less uncertain starter than some of the guys currently in our team!
His returns for us have been pretty good in the long form stuff. And if you look at his entry on cricinfo which lists his last several appearances for us in all second XI stuff (including T20) one notable thing is that he seems to have made ZERO single figure scores. So he may, possibly, be a less uncertain starter than some of the guys currently in our team!
Tres, Thomas and Trego have been great servants to us but I hope this I hope this is their last season (although Trego could still be an asset in the one day side). We do need a proper rebuild and our youngsters should be experienced enough to carry on the mantle.
We should be doing all we can to keep hold of Meschede IMO and MM also needs to make a decision on weather our young spinners are good enough or not.
In my opinion we either need a really good overseas batsman (possibly someone who will captain) and a wicketkeeper (either a top keeper like Bates, or someone who excels with the bat).
I would like us give these guys a go next season. People like Allenby and Gregory would need to show a lot more with the bat for it to work though.
1. ??
2. Abell
3. Myburgh
4. Hildreth
5. Allenby
6. Meschede
7. Gregory
8. Overton
9. ??
10. Groenwald/Overton
11. Dockrell/Leach
We should be doing all we can to keep hold of Meschede IMO and MM also needs to make a decision on weather our young spinners are good enough or not.
In my opinion we either need a really good overseas batsman (possibly someone who will captain) and a wicketkeeper (either a top keeper like Bates, or someone who excels with the bat).
I would like us give these guys a go next season. People like Allenby and Gregory would need to show a lot more with the bat for it to work though.
1. ??
2. Abell
3. Myburgh
4. Hildreth
5. Allenby
6. Meschede
7. Gregory
8. Overton
9. ??
10. Groenwald/Overton
11. Dockrell/Leach
Some good debate here and I of the opinion that we may have to drop down a division to allow some of our youngsters to flourish. If its good enough for Meschede, why not good enough for the others of similar age.
For me, dumping Dave Houghton was a massive mistake. We had seen significant improvement from some of our young batsmen when he was in position. Gregory, Barrow, Abell stepped up and the top order were showing really promising signs. What has happened? Gregory not pressing on, Barrow, contracted at a top order if not, opening batsman batting at 9, Abell struggling at the top. Is Maynard working with the batsmen, developing them, ironing out technical faults, instilling them with self belief? This is what they need but I get the feeling its not happening. Does MM have too much on his plate to cope? Jimmy Cook would have done a similar role to Houghton, so why don't we need a batting coach. Its beyond me.Answers on a post card please.
For me, dumping Dave Houghton was a massive mistake. We had seen significant improvement from some of our young batsmen when he was in position. Gregory, Barrow, Abell stepped up and the top order were showing really promising signs. What has happened? Gregory not pressing on, Barrow, contracted at a top order if not, opening batsman batting at 9, Abell struggling at the top. Is Maynard working with the batsmen, developing them, ironing out technical faults, instilling them with self belief? This is what they need but I get the feeling its not happening. Does MM have too much on his plate to cope? Jimmy Cook would have done a similar role to Houghton, so why don't we need a batting coach. Its beyond me.Answers on a post card please.
I won't waste the cost of a postage stamp on a postcard, just in; I'll just say it here.
I agree with all that you have said above!
I agree with all that you have said above!
I'm not sure why various posters on here seem keen to pension off Trego, along with Tresco and Alf?
The former is not of a similar age to the latter two, really, and it is likely that we will already have enough holes to fill for next year, without creating extra ones.
The former is not of a similar age to the latter two, really, and it is likely that we will already have enough holes to fill for next year, without creating extra ones.
AGod, I think it's because it's time to rebuild and we need to keep our talented youngsters and get them playing as much as possible. We aren't going to pull up any trees anytime soon, so we should be looking to the future. In my opinion, Meschede is ready to take Trego's mantle and Gregory has already taken Alf's.
During the last couple of seasons whenever I have had the pleasure of visiting our much changed County Ground, I have detected from a number of long standing club members that they attribute our struggles in the Championship to Marcus Trescothick's captaincy.
I agree with them up to a point in as much as I do not consider that Marcus has the necessary qualities to lead a side.
I have read with much interest the comments on this particular subject, and am surprised at the ever increasing consensus of opinion that we would be better off playing in Division 2 next season, having had a massive clear out at the end of this one.
I respect everyone's views, and if that is what happens then so be it.
I do not profess to have all the answers to Somerset's problems myself, but God willing I shall be there to support them in some shape or form next year.
I agree with them up to a point in as much as I do not consider that Marcus has the necessary qualities to lead a side.
I have read with much interest the comments on this particular subject, and am surprised at the ever increasing consensus of opinion that we would be better off playing in Division 2 next season, having had a massive clear out at the end of this one.
I respect everyone's views, and if that is what happens then so be it.
I do not profess to have all the answers to Somerset's problems myself, but God willing I shall be there to support them in some shape or form next year.
I really hope we keep our Div 1 status. Craig and Lewis have proved themselves in Div 1 already, I can't see Div 2 helping those two in any way at all.
[www.totalcricketscorer.com]
Maybe it really is time to try Max with the bat?
Maiden ton for Ben Green too.
Rehman managed to bowl 29 overs for one wicket vs Hants second XI. Not exactly re-assuring in any way, shape, or form IMO.
George Dockrell got absolutely carted. Waller only bowled three overs.
Incidentally, I note from the above that Josh Davey is now fit to bowl so he might, presumably, get a first team T20 appearance?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:11:12:43:49 by AGod.
Maybe it really is time to try Max with the bat?
Maiden ton for Ben Green too.
Rehman managed to bowl 29 overs for one wicket vs Hants second XI. Not exactly re-assuring in any way, shape, or form IMO.
George Dockrell got absolutely carted. Waller only bowled three overs.
Incidentally, I note from the above that Josh Davey is now fit to bowl so he might, presumably, get a first team T20 appearance?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:11:12:43:49 by AGod.
I certainly don't subscribe to the view that relegation would be a good thing, Palairet.
As for Trescothick, I think his biggest problem is not his lack of imagination but rather the tendency for his own head to go down (along with those of his charges) in the field when things start to go against the team. The team need rallying at those times, tough as it may be to keep up personal morale.
The Captain cannot, obviously, be blamed for the side's batting other than his own.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:11:12:46:32 by AGod.
As for Trescothick, I think his biggest problem is not his lack of imagination but rather the tendency for his own head to go down (along with those of his charges) in the field when things start to go against the team. The team need rallying at those times, tough as it may be to keep up personal morale.
The Captain cannot, obviously, be blamed for the side's batting other than his own.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:11:12:46:32 by AGod.
Don't see any merit at all in going to Div. 2 for any reason & hope we bust a gut to stay in Div 1.
Agree entirely that Alf & Marcus should move on to the next stage of their lives, (albeit I could live with Marcus as a batsman alone), should he regain some form under a new skipper.
Don't share the opinion that Trigger should go. As AG says he is younger, his attitude is right & he's one of the few who perform when the chips are down.
Grizzzly
Agree entirely that Alf & Marcus should move on to the next stage of their lives, (albeit I could live with Marcus as a batsman alone), should he regain some form under a new skipper.
Don't share the opinion that Trigger should go. As AG says he is younger, his attitude is right & he's one of the few who perform when the chips are down.
Grizzzly
It it the worst time possible to be in Div2. We are the flagbearer to many of successful provincial cricket with academy players moving through and few kolpaks.
Opponents of 'Willisland' cricket need Somerset in the first division.
Opponents of 'Willisland' cricket need Somerset in the first division.
To clarify Grockle, I wasn't attributing any of the basis of my comments about Hose to you. Any that I made were based purely on AG's unoptimistic initial review of the options on offer which he has since helpully elaborated further on. I'm very curious about the 2nd xi as a long distance supporter, (currently in South Korea) since its hard enough to follow the first team from out here.
My main concern is that with an apparent dearth of batting options there is no pressure on anyones place since apparently there are no viable batting options. I find that very strange. I realise that we have many bowlers who can bat but its a sign of desperate times that we are honestly talking about constructing a batting order with such players in the top six.
MonkeyButler's point about Trego is a fair one. He has been an excellent cricketer who Somerset supporters are rightly proud of and I like others hope that he has a long future here. However. How is Meschede ever going to get in the team when a fan favourite can keep his place despite poor returns? If you are choosing between them (which of course we aren't at the moment) its short term thinking to choose Trego. He has been underbowled and is in the team more for his batting which hasn't fired this year in CC.
Finally regarding relegation. I don't think any supporter wants somerset to go down. It maybe deserved and I hope for the possibility of a silver lining in that scenario but it is a considerable worry. Undeniably many teams have stagnated badly in CC2 and there are talks of CC3 at the end of 2016. Somerset are a much better team than their results show but thats the familiar dirge of relegated teams....they need to prove it.
My main concern is that with an apparent dearth of batting options there is no pressure on anyones place since apparently there are no viable batting options. I find that very strange. I realise that we have many bowlers who can bat but its a sign of desperate times that we are honestly talking about constructing a batting order with such players in the top six.
MonkeyButler's point about Trego is a fair one. He has been an excellent cricketer who Somerset supporters are rightly proud of and I like others hope that he has a long future here. However. How is Meschede ever going to get in the team when a fan favourite can keep his place despite poor returns? If you are choosing between them (which of course we aren't at the moment) its short term thinking to choose Trego. He has been underbowled and is in the team more for his batting which hasn't fired this year in CC.
Finally regarding relegation. I don't think any supporter wants somerset to go down. It maybe deserved and I hope for the possibility of a silver lining in that scenario but it is a considerable worry. Undeniably many teams have stagnated badly in CC2 and there are talks of CC3 at the end of 2016. Somerset are a much better team than their results show but thats the familiar dirge of relegated teams....they need to prove it.
The nature of the Seconds has changed over the years Chenor and ours more than some. The senior seconds have to be 'firsts in waiting' and as you point out there aren't that many batting prospects coming through.
I also think it is time to give Max his batting head. He
is only used as a T20 specialist and that doesn't support a full contract surely. Unless he has some batting prowess that means be can be a 'surprise' bowler in other formats and contribute with willow there seems little point in him I'm afraid.
Using Reagan also has its merits. It gives Barrow a chance to sort himself out and James can't be worth much less with the bat than Alex presently. If however, the powers don't think he is ready then one has to ask what it his point as well? Get Bates the Phenom in instead.
If our seconds are the future then we have to have meaningful contributions or people need to make way.
I also think it is time to give Max his batting head. He
is only used as a T20 specialist and that doesn't support a full contract surely. Unless he has some batting prowess that means be can be a 'surprise' bowler in other formats and contribute with willow there seems little point in him I'm afraid.
Using Reagan also has its merits. It gives Barrow a chance to sort himself out and James can't be worth much less with the bat than Alex presently. If however, the powers don't think he is ready then one has to ask what it his point as well? Get Bates the Phenom in instead.
If our seconds are the future then we have to have meaningful contributions or people need to make way.
Regarding Trego, I am not saying that that he is past it or that we should put him out to pasture. What I am saying is that I think next season it will be time for Meschede to take his place in the first team (in the 4 day side). I see Trego's future more in the short format of the game for us, I know others will disagree. We may very well lose Meschede, so my argument would be redundant.
Trego, Alf and Tres were all very special players and at the very least are still very good players. However, it is obvious (at least to me) to see that we have stagnated over the last few years and we need to make sure we develop and keep the next batch of special players at the club.
I am not in the play every youngster camp, I didn’t believe Jones was good enough to for where we want to be and I feel the same about Barrow. However, we do have a number who will be good enough for where we should be aspiring to be.
Trego, Alf and Tres were all very special players and at the very least are still very good players. However, it is obvious (at least to me) to see that we have stagnated over the last few years and we need to make sure we develop and keep the next batch of special players at the club.
I am not in the play every youngster camp, I didn’t believe Jones was good enough to for where we want to be and I feel the same about Barrow. However, we do have a number who will be good enough for where we should be aspiring to be.
I think you may be right MB but does have Maynard have the nous to a) see it and then b) do something about it?
I don't think that "the nature of the Seconds has changed over the years". Coaches have for years scoured around to find half decent club cricketers and triallists to make up the numbers for their teams.
I have always considered that the Seconds should comprise of young players on the way up, or players dropped from the Firsts in order to recapture some sort of form, or as a 'run out' after recovering from an injury.
We have a few players on the staff who seem to be perpetual Second XI players, and that is not the purpose of a Second XI.
LoL makes some good points in his 22.11 posting of 10th. June regarding relegation. We have struggled for a couple of seasons to remain in the top flight, and as ChenorTom said no true supporter wants us to go down.
However, whether this season or later, we will inevitably drop down. I somehow think that if we do make the drop this year, we will be better equipped to bounce back again sooner rather than later.
I have always considered that the Seconds should comprise of young players on the way up, or players dropped from the Firsts in order to recapture some sort of form, or as a 'run out' after recovering from an injury.
We have a few players on the staff who seem to be perpetual Second XI players, and that is not the purpose of a Second XI.
LoL makes some good points in his 22.11 posting of 10th. June regarding relegation. We have struggled for a couple of seasons to remain in the top flight, and as ChenorTom said no true supporter wants us to go down.
However, whether this season or later, we will inevitably drop down. I somehow think that if we do make the drop this year, we will be better equipped to bounce back again sooner rather than later.
I think the point is, Clarence, that the club used to have some professional batsmen that weren't young but that who, nevertheless, were not first-team regulars who, thus, used to regularly turn out for the second XI.
For example, Keith Parsons was (in a number of seasons) not a CC regular and would, therefore, often appear in the second XI. Over 14 seasons as a first-class cricketer, Parsie made "only," 130 first-class appearances. Even in one assumed that all of those games were CC games (not a valid assumption) that would mean he averaged only 9 CC games per season. And for a good part of that time (if memory serves) there were more than the current 16 CC games per season.
I'm sure there are other examples too from that sort of period. It was period where, IMO, the club seemed to have a larger squad of contracted professionals.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:12:10:52:12 by AGod.
For example, Keith Parsons was (in a number of seasons) not a CC regular and would, therefore, often appear in the second XI. Over 14 seasons as a first-class cricketer, Parsie made "only," 130 first-class appearances. Even in one assumed that all of those games were CC games (not a valid assumption) that would mean he averaged only 9 CC games per season. And for a good part of that time (if memory serves) there were more than the current 16 CC games per season.
I'm sure there are other examples too from that sort of period. It was period where, IMO, the club seemed to have a larger squad of contracted professionals.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:12:10:52:12 by AGod.
Kevin Parsons is a better example AG along with Sam Trego who was in the side who won the second XI championship. Both were in that band of players who are better than the club standard but not quite there for a county place. You always need that base of player but there aren't as many of them in our seconds team nowadays as there was a decade or two ago.
Now the seconds setup is much more of a proving ground for the youngsters coming up and they are, in our case, literally the backups for the firsts in many cases. I am all for if you are good enough then you are old enough but that assessment must be made, as always, by the coaches and staff appointed to make those decisions and oversee the development of the talent.
The core of the old second XI was a bunch of guys playing themselves back from injury and others who were regulars playing, possibly at the top of their game. Now it has the same injury role but the other regulars are potential first team players of the future and those being tried out for that honour perhaps.
Now the seconds setup is much more of a proving ground for the youngsters coming up and they are, in our case, literally the backups for the firsts in many cases. I am all for if you are good enough then you are old enough but that assessment must be made, as always, by the coaches and staff appointed to make those decisions and oversee the development of the talent.
The core of the old second XI was a bunch of guys playing themselves back from injury and others who were regulars playing, possibly at the top of their game. Now it has the same injury role but the other regulars are potential first team players of the future and those being tried out for that honour perhaps.
I always thought that Parsons played less than he should of. I wouldn't put him in the second class of county cricket players.
Which one Monkey? Keith? Couldn't agree more. Kevin? Not so sure. Didn't see much of him in the early days. He was captain of the Cricket Board side when I first came across him.
I've been at a loss to understand why we are struggling so much this season but a lunchtime read of this thread has got me right up to speed.
The power of passionate, knowledgeable fans sharing opinions is a good thing.
I hope we stay up, I really do, although I did stick a tenner on us at 9s to get relegated when Compton left for Middlesex.
Weather forecast is dry for four days for the Notts match - let's hope for a repeat performance of Trent Bridge!
The power of passionate, knowledgeable fans sharing opinions is a good thing.
I hope we stay up, I really do, although I did stick a tenner on us at 9s to get relegated when Compton left for Middlesex.
Weather forecast is dry for four days for the Notts match - let's hope for a repeat performance of Trent Bridge!
Don't think we'll be getting an up and down track a la Trent Bridge. But first day looks so heavily overcast that batting first will probably be really difficult in terms of swing.
[stats.espncricinfo.com]
Latest averages for us. Only Hants have a similar kind of combined paucity of both batting and bowling averages so far this season. There are other CC1 teams that have poor batting averages - but those sides generally have good bowling averages to go with them - an epithet that can only really be applied to Craig O in our case
Latest averages for us. Only Hants have a similar kind of combined paucity of both batting and bowling averages so far this season. There are other CC1 teams that have poor batting averages - but those sides generally have good bowling averages to go with them - an epithet that can only really be applied to Craig O in our case
Who has unfortunately just been called up for England. *SIGH*
[www.bbc.com]
Of course the stats are skewed by result pitches at Durham, Notts and Sussex which make their bowlers look better than they are. How else can you explain Coverton being called up ahead of Rushworth. I honestly don't think that there would be much difference between our bowlers stats if we were playing on the same pitches.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:13:14:06:50 by ChenorTom.
[www.bbc.com]
Of course the stats are skewed by result pitches at Durham, Notts and Sussex which make their bowlers look better than they are. How else can you explain Coverton being called up ahead of Rushworth. I honestly don't think that there would be much difference between our bowlers stats if we were playing on the same pitches.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015:06:13:14:06:50 by ChenorTom.
Bloody brilliant. So pleased for the boy. Hope he plays and hope he bowls and hope he takes wickets and hope he gets the chance to bat with Jos.
So made up for a man who has worked so hard for this.
So made up for a man who has worked so hard for this.
I suspect he's there - annoyingly for us - with a view to Farbrace and (if he's around?) Bayliss getting a look at him with a view to possible Test selection, either later in the summer or for the winter.
CO has no track record in limited overs cricket, really, so he's surely been added for perceived potential.
According to cricinfo, he's played only 10 50 over games, averaging 10 with the bat and 54 with the ball. His figures in CC cricket this season - 30 with the bat and 18 with the ball would provide a rather more compelling reason for considering him for Test selection, IMO.
CO has no track record in limited overs cricket, really, so he's surely been added for perceived potential.
According to cricinfo, he's played only 10 50 over games, averaging 10 with the bat and 54 with the ball. His figures in CC cricket this season - 30 with the bat and 18 with the ball would provide a rather more compelling reason for considering him for Test selection, IMO.
He deserves to be on the Test radar at some point in the not too distant future, IMO.
As far as short form cricket is concerned, there would be an awful lot of County cricketers who have done far more in those formats than Craig O has and so, in that sense, an awful lot of other cricketers would be more deserving of ODI selection, IMO. Or at least they would if one takes the view that County performances are what should earn people their opportunity.
As far as short form cricket is concerned, there would be an awful lot of County cricketers who have done far more in those formats than Craig O has and so, in that sense, an awful lot of other cricketers would be more deserving of ODI selection, IMO. Or at least they would if one takes the view that County performances are what should earn people their opportunity.
Well selectors have left our better players languishing before so any attention to a young Somerset player should be applauded rather than analysed to death... but that's probably just me.
Its interesting considering the discussion on this thread about limited options to bring into our team, that our first division rivals still find our unused squad players worth a place in their squads....
[www.bbc.com]
[www.bbc.com]
Let me put it this way, Grockle ---- how many times since you have been running this board have you seen x or y poster bemoan the fact that x or y cricketer has been picked for an ODI ahead of, say, Peter Trego, despite inferior figures?
By rights, England will pick David Willey, who was in the original squad and who has much more pedigree in limited overs cricket.
That said, if Craig plays I shall certainly be cheering him on vociferously.
And yes, CT..........
By rights, England will pick David Willey, who was in the original squad and who has much more pedigree in limited overs cricket.
That said, if Craig plays I shall certainly be cheering him on vociferously.
And yes, CT..........
Exactly what I posted, we've been overlooked so often I applaud any player noticed.
Unless they are looking at you how can you show what you can do? You get the opportunity and you make the most of it.
So I'm really not sure what your point is but PLEASE don't spend extra text explaining it for my benefit because I really don't care what you are trying to say. I'm simply happy for Craig's good luck.
Unless they are looking at you how can you show what you can do? You get the opportunity and you make the most of it.
So I'm really not sure what your point is but PLEASE don't spend extra text explaining it for my benefit because I really don't care what you are trying to say. I'm simply happy for Craig's good luck.
Liam Plunkett (thigh strain) has also been ruled out of the remainder of the One day series, so that increases the chance that Craig Overton might actually play (although I imagine David Willey and Mark Wood are probably ahead of him in the pecking order)
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