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According to James Allen blog the 13th spot has been taken by Lotus.

Quote:

JA on F1
"Nevertheless, the FIA considers that BMW Sauber’s application is of high quality and would constitute a competitive participant in the Championship. As such, it has awarded BMW Sauber the ‘14th place’ in the Championship meaning that it will be entitled to fill any vacancy that arises on the 2010 grid.
“In addition, the FIA believes that a good case can be made for expanding the grid to 14 teams. The FIA will be consulting urgently with the existing teams regarding the introduction of an appropriate rule change to expand the grid to 28 cars in time for the first Grand Prix in 2010.”

That is something I wasn't thinking about...

[www.fia.com]

Lotus f1 confirmed as 13th team

More about Lotus F1 in FIA statement:

Quote:

FIA
Company Name: 1Malaysia F1 Team Sdn Bhd
Team Name: Lotus F1 Team
Country: Malaysia
Team Principal: Tony Fernandes

A partnership between the Malaysian Government and a consortium of Malaysian entrepreneurs, 1Malaysia F1 Team returns the Lotus name as a constructor to Formula One for the first time since 1994. The team will initially be based at the RTN facility in Norfolk, UK, some 10 miles from the Lotus Cars factory. A 50,000 square foot fully equipped facility, RTN was built by Toyota for its initial Formula One programme and then used by Bentley for its successful Le Mans programme.

The team’s future design, R&D, manufacturing and technical centre will be purpose built at Malaysia’s Sepang International Circuit.

Team Principal Tony Fernandes is the founder and CEO of the Malaysian-based Tune Group, owner of the Air Asia airline. The team’s Technical Director Mike Gascoyne has over 20 years of experience in Formula One having previously performed the same role for the Force India, Toyota, Renault and Jordan Formula One teams.

As part of its application to compete in the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship, the team has agreed an engine supply deal with Cosworth and a wide variety of technical partnerships including Xtrac and FondTech.

I think the chances that Hinwil squad will be on the grid next year are very thin now. @#$%& you BMW.

Well actually all members of FOTA are supporting rescue of the team. And it needs their votes to change rules and raise maximum number of cars from 26 to 28. The question mark is whether all circuits have the facilities to accommodate 14 teams. But if it is done before the end of this season they have time to prepare.

I thinks it is smart move from FIA otherwise there was no chance to raise the number of competitors but with aim of support to what is left from Sauber Team there shouldn't be muany votes against. Especially taking into account that exBMW’s 2010 challenger should be competitive and I don’t expect new teams to be able to challenge for points in their first year. It took Force India almost 2 years to be competitive with solid resources from previous teams.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:10:33:39 by JSK.

I doubt those 4 new teams will all be ready to show up next year.

Contrary to them, we have everything ready.

Id just beyond my imagination how badly the 'exit' was managed by BMW.

If they would have signed new CA that TV money would be good partion of what BMW AG now expects for payment for team.

I think that new teams will make it. There is too much at stake with Cosworth deal in place (they need at least 3 teams for the project to be viable, so now they have one in spare but according to rumours US F1 might want to change their engine), sponsorship deals and general cost involved in projects. Prodrive case was different from the beginning they wanted to buy the car so in case of failure the costs before season were much lower.

And the team is sold:

Read Autosport report...

LOL! BMW is the Loser of the year for me!

First they decided not to sign Concorde Agreement and lost millions of dollars, and now they announced a decision just a couple of hours after FIA rejected their application because of "uncertain future owners"

2008 Prediction Champion



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:19:03:01 by barteks.

QUADBAK Investment Fund - is... "a Swiss-based foundation which represents the interests of certain Middle East and European-based families." The same fund has bought in June Notts County FC, the oldest football club in England. The new football director become Sven-Göran Eriksson and currently the plan is to get the club to Championship in 2012. That is good sign for Sauber future, because it indicates that the company has serious plans for the future. There is not much to be found on the internet about company. The best quotes I could get are from interview with John Armstrong-Holmes (chairman of Notts County).

"QADBAK has a number of investors and like most funds and bank investments, it is subject to confidentiality. As such it is inappropriate to disclose the names of some or all of the investors."

"In addition, a UK regulated (FSA) merchant bank advised on the transaction.They have particular expertise in giving advice within the sport and leisure sectors, as well as extensive experience in the Middle East."

It seems to be good funding for the team.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:12:38:11 by JSK.

It's a comedy. Now the priority to QADBAK is to get rid of incompetent Theissen & Rampf .

I don't think there are many competent people around there. Who do you propose? Gascoyne? There is clearly something abouth him that he can't stay with one team for a longer term. Richards? If he will come back it will be with prodrive. Don't forget that it was Theissen that lead to BMW 2008 form. His achievements with Williams aren't bad either.
Rampf is as good as any technical director out there.
Jorg Zender is out of F1 for now.
Peter Sauber has sold his stake as well.

The new team will be shaping in future moths and I wish that new management would be at least as competent as current.

I cannot post in the BMW Buyer thread. Please merge this thread.

Congratulations!

You guys and the team deserve a break.

Any news on the engine?

Williams and proud of it.

Cosworth, if they want to race

2008 Prediction Champion

Quote:

barteks
LOL! BMW is the Loser of the year for me!
First they decided not to sign Concorde Agreement and lost millions of dollars, and now they annouced a deecision just a couple of hours after FIA rejected their applicatiob because of "uncertain future owners"

I agree.

"Swiss-based foundation which represents the interests of certain Middle East and European-based families"

This sounds like meeting in Godfather II with cuban government and Hyman Roth:

"Mr. Hyman Roth of Miami, and Michael Corleone of Nevada representing our Associates in Tourism and Leisure Activities."

Quote:

Walsingham
"Swiss-based foundation which represents the interests of certain Middle East and European-based families"
This sounds like meeting in Godfather II with cuban government and Hyman Roth:

"Mr. Hyman Roth of Miami, and Michael Corleone of Nevada representing our Associates in Tourism and Leisure Activities."

LOL

Quote:

Gemm

Quote:

barteks
LOL! BMW is the Loser of the year for me!
First they decided not to sign Concorde Agreement and lost millions of dollars, and now they annouced a deecision just a couple of hours after FIA rejected their applicatiob because of "uncertain future owners"

I agree.

On the other hand you can also say that they have saved the money that is necessary to run the team for 3 consecutive years and earned money from the team sale. Considering amount of money from TV rights share from Bernie I would say their accountants are quite OK.

But it proves that their sole purpose is production of cars rather then racing. Unfortunately there is no love for F1 in the executive board.
More then that right now there is probably no love for BMW in F1 either.

The whole world wonders who's the tall turbaned bloke is who's the secret buyer of BMW. Could it be ? Doubtful, but representatives have confirmed his appearances are not expected at any of the races.

Quote:

JSK
I don't think there are many competent people around there. Who do you propose? Gascoyne?

Personaly I'd give Gascoyne a shot.

Quote:

JSK
Rampf is as good as any technical director out there.

Based on what? Two years with worst development on the grid? He's nowhere near to Zander, Newey, Byrne, Love or Neale. He was never up to the task and he proved it in last to years by distarious development pace, not working update packages and fundametally flawed car.
He just doesn't have it if it goes to winning. I rate him as one of the worst technical directors on the grid. He never showed a sign of brilliance, and many others did show it in under-recourced teams.
He was the first one to have very advanced hybrid car and more data than anybody else and still produced complete lemon!

Quote:

JSK
Don't forget that it was Theissen that lead to BMW 2008 form.

You meant Theissen who lead one of the biggest slump ever from 3rd fastest car leading both championships to complete disasters when the car was only 6th or 7th fastest?

If sb really believe those men are w/o any guilty after all these slumps and disappointments from last years must be really blind. This season proved they were never up to the task.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:16:55:11 by soarq.

Quote:

Walsingham
I think the chances that Hinwil squad will be on the grid next year are very thin now.

How do you reckon?

I'd be surprised if all 4 of the new applications (Lotus, Manor, Campos, USF1) make it to the grid. Personally, I think Lotus and/or Manor are going to be a stretch. Even if they do make it, I think a 28 car grid is quite plausible.

Either way, finding a buyer is a step in the right direction. So now we wait to hear final comfirmation that Hinwil is on the 2010 grid, either through one other team dropping out, or the FIA confirming a 28 car grid.

Let's stay positive!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:17:51:56 by SauberF1-Canada.

Quote:

soarq

Quote:

JSK
I don't think there are many competent people around there. Who do you propose? Gascoyne?

Personaly I'd give Gascoyne a shot.

He is with Lotus so no chance.

Quote:

soarq

Quote:

JSK
Rampf is as good as any technical director out there.

Based on what? Two years with worst development on the grid? He's nowhere near to Zander, Newey, Byrne, Love or Neale. He was never up to the task and he proved it in last to years by distarious development pace, not working update packages and fundametally flawed car.
He just doesn't have it if it goes to winning. I rate him as one of the worst technical directors on the grid. He never showed a sign of brilliance, and many others did show it in under-recourced teams.
He was the first one to have very advanced hybrid car and more data than anybody else and still produced complete lemon!

You are quickly forgeting the fact tha BMW was one of the fastest developing teams from 2006 till middle of 2008. The car in Australian GP 09 wasn't bad either. Till the end of diffusor saga there wasn't any clear development path for any team. Considering how fast all teams develop this year I would say that depending on track they are more or less in the same position as they were during beginning of the season. I would wait with jugement up untill Singapour GP at least. This is place where some of the problems with car should be finnaly solved.

You are hanging dogs on him becouse of this year but remeber that he has less responsibilities this year then years before. His role has changed after last season. You could also prove that after this change in organization the car become less competitive. The car is not created by technical director. We are not in possition to judge if he has achieved the internal aims of car development or not. And above that I think that clearly BMW is not doing the worst job out there if you think about Toyota and Renault for a while and their development pace is comperable. I don't know if it is coincidance that all of this teams are factory teams.

What is more his role compered to Newey and Zender are different. Different team structures.

If you think that BMW have done worse job on KERS compered to Ferrari and McLaren then take into account that except Honda and Toyota only BMW has made this system totally in house. McLaren uses system supplied by Zytek. Renault and Ferrari have parts from Magneti Marelli, Willimas in order to build KERS aquired shares of Automotive Hybrid Power in 2006. Honda is out and Brawn doesn't have space for KERS. Toyota never intended to run it this season.

KERS was beloved child of BMW executives with their Efficient Dynamics campaign and at the same time it was technical exercise.

Quote:

soarq

Quote:

JSK
Don't forget that it was Theissen that lead to BMW 2008 form.

You meant Theissen who lead one of the biggest slump ever from 3rd fastest car leading both championships to complete disasters when the car was only 6th or 7th fastest?

If sb really believe those men are w/o any guilty after all these slumps and disappointments from last years must be really blind. This season proved they were never up to the task.

Of course they are responsible for todays form of the team. But in truth they were never fully independent from BMW executive board. The change of strategy in BMW Group never allowed them to cope with changed "rules" of double diffuser. All of their preseason advantege was gone after Brawn GP first run with double diffuser and then was allowed to do so by governing body. All of their long term prosepcts were gone after FOTA banned KERS. No more technology adventage.

Theissen adapted to this changes and abondened KERS to focus on aerodynamics. The fruition of this decision will be seen only after Singapour when the diffuser will be fully optimised.

If they were fully independent then this decision would have probably come faster but we don't know this for sure. All you can say as certain is that with stable situation in F1 the team was progressing smoothly. Impressivly smooth. During 3 out of 4 seasons of BMW Team there was improvement. Fact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:17:58:51 by JSK.

[quote JSK]You are quickly forgeting the fact tha BMW was one of the fastest developing teams from 2006 till middle of 2008.[/quote]

You do recognise that developing is million times easier when you are midfield team like BMW was in 2006. The area to improve is simply much bigger.

2007 was definately best BMW season in Formula 1 in terms of development pace. It's the only season they have matched development rate of top dogs.

[quote JSK]The car in Australian GP 09 wasn't bad either.[/quote]

I don't call 4the or 5th fastest car "not bad". It's quite bad, especially for the team which aimed for winning titles.

[quote JSK]Till the end of diffusor saga there wasn't any clear development path for any team.[/quote]

Yet McLaren & Ferrari managed to introduce DDD much earlier than BMW and look what's happening now - they have winning cars.

I think I don't have to mention BMW was the last team (apart from Toro Rosso, worst team on the grid) which introduced DDD. No matter how you will twist it it's clear FAILURE of the team, and VERY SLOW development rate.

Remember Formula 1 is a sport and not buisness project.

[quote JSK]This is place where some of the problems with car should be finnaly solved.[/quote]

The strange thing is we all know BMW lacks in mechanical grip and balance, but Singapore update is all about aero to my best knowledge. But let's hope it will fix 'no mech grip' problem, but I don't think so.

[quote JSK]What is more his role compered to Newey and Zender are different. Different team structures.[/quote]

Sure. It's also obvious (judging by results of course) BMW structure pattern is wrong and RBR or Brawn GP structure is right. Another failure.

[quote JSK]If you think that BMW have done worse job on KERS compered to Ferrari and McLaren then take into account that except Honda and Toyota only BMW has made this system totally in house. McLaren uses system supplied by Zytek. Renault and Ferrari have parts from Magneti Marelli, Willimas in order to build KERS aquired shares of Automotive Hybrid Power in 2006. Honda is out and Brawn doesn't have space for KERS. Toyota never intended to run it this season.[/quote]

Of course BMW did worst job in terms of KERS! Haven't you read last interview with Heidfeld? He confirmed they dumped KERS partly because their system affected braking and they couldn't solve it while others did manage to do it.

Also have in mind that Kubica couldn't race with KERS because he was too heavy and they couldn't balance the car properly.

Well, I don't know if realise about it but Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen weighted more or less the same as Robert and they did manage to balance their car and those drivers could use the system.

Those above are confirmed facts. I don't know how can you say BMW didn't do worse job than Ferrari & McLaren in terms of KERS.

[quote JSK]KERS was beloved child of BMW executives with their Efficient Dynamics campaign and at the same time it was technical exercise.[/quote]

Again, I want to remind you Formula 1 is still a sport and not buisness project. Sport should be on the foreground, buisness on the background. Unfortunately BMW reversed it - and it bit them badly.

[qupte JSK]Of course they are responsible for todays form of the team. But in truth they were never fully independent from BMW executive board.[/quote]

If Theissen & Rampf weren't independent than I hate them even more than before! Why? If they knew they will be only muppets and won't be able to make the calls independently than they should have never accepted offered poses!

You see that's a good example how they deluded us, the fans. We believed them. We believed BMW is in Formula 1 to win, that they consider it purely as a sport.

They lied us. They lied Heidfeld & Kubica. And Theissen & Rampf knew from the very beggining how the things are in this team...

[quote JSK]The change of strategy in BMW Group never allowed them to cope with changed "rules" of double diffuser. All of their preseason advantege was gone after Brawn GP first run with double diffuser and then was allowed to do so by governing body. All of their long term prosepcts were gone after FOTA banned KERS. No more technology adventage.[/quote]

Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull were in the very same situation. And they are winning races. How isn't that a BMW failure? Again, remember Formula 1 is a sport and everything is relative there.

Theissen adapted to this changes and abondened KERS to focus on aerodynamics. The fruition of this decision will be seen only after Singapour when the diffuser will be fully optimised.

[quote JSK]During 3 out of 4 seasons of BMW Team there was improvement. Fact.[/quote]

To set the record straight:

2006 - they improved all season long but of course it's much easier to find big chunks of performance when the car is slow

2007 - best BMW season in terms of development rate, they held 0,5s defficit to McLaren and Ferrari almost all season

2008 - they stood still from the very beginning, at first races it was 0.1-0.3s defficit, but by Turkey status quo from 2007 came back, and race by race other teams BMW was being caught by other teams

IMHO sth have changed at the end of 2007/at the beginning of 2008. It all started to rot from inside about that time.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:19:02:54 by soarq.

There's a problem with quotation in the post above. I don't know why :/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:19:00:23 by soarq.

Quote:

soarq
You do recognise that developing is million times easier when you are midfield team like BMW was in 2006. The area to improve is simply much bigger.
2007 was definately best BMW season in Formula 1 in terms of development pace. It's the only season they have matched development rate of top dogs.

I would still say that BMW development pace till Canadian GP 2008 was at least on par with top teams if not better. By development pace I mean continous development process also off-season. Since 2006 till 2008 the rules were more or less constant (at least aerodynamics) except changing to control tyres in 2007. The team developed into from lower midfield in 2006 up to GP winners by the middle of 2008.
I do recognize that it is easier to develop when the area of improvement is bigger. But the team wasn't finnished in 2006 as well. Less people, less equipment.

For me the turning poitn was in 2008. When developments that brought improvement in tunnel sudenly didn't deliver on track.

Still in 2007 they matched the development as you said. And the management was the same. You should give the credit when its due.

Quote:

soarq
I don't call 4the or 5th fastest car "not bad". It's quite bad, especially for the team which aimed for winning titles.

It wasn't the fastest car on the grid but it was the fastest KERS car (although only in Heidfeld case) and 2nd fastest car without double diffuser. This is what I mean by "not bad".

Quote:

soarq

Quote:

JSK
Till the end of diffusor saga there wasn't any clear development path for any team.

Yet McLaren & Ferrari managed to introduce DDD much earlier than BMW and look what's happening now - they have winning cars.

I think I don't have to mention BMW was the last team (apart from Toro Rosso, worst team on the grid) which introduced DDD. No matter how you will twist it it's clear FAILURE of the team, and VERY SLOW development rate.

Remember Formula 1 is a sport and not buisness project.

Yes Ferrari and McLaren managed to introduce DDD earlier but they are bigger teams then BMW. Further more BMW designed and built KERS in house which led to movement in resources. As I said before McLaren had Zytek as a suplier and Ferrari had Magneti Marelli. In the end it was mistake from BMW to focus on KERS. But when f1.09 was being planned the future of KERS was bright with less restrictions about its power in 2010 and its obligatory use. When DDD became officialy legal it was first blow to BMW position. When FOTA voted against KERS this technology became not viable any more.
It is clearly a failure. But you can not blame Theissen and Rampf for not predicting that KERS will be dead end with 2010 regulations that they had at that time.

During the season they reacted probably too late. A failure that they can't compensate because BMW is out after this season. They lost the time from middle 2008 till middle of 2009 by going in wrong direction. They had bad assumption for future seasons with development of KERS as a priority. But every good team has weaker seasons. Not so long ago McLaren had worse season every even year. Ferrari was nowhere in 2005. And this is first season for Theissen that went wrong and he cant do nothing more then finnish it better then he started. As you said it is sport. You can not expect to deliver on every occasion.

Quote:

soarq
The strange thing is we all know BMW lacks in mechanical grip and balance, but Singapore update is all about aero to my best knowledge. But let's hope it will fix 'no mech grip' problem, but I don't think so.

Lets just wait and see.

Quote:

soarq
Sure. It's also obvious (judging by results of course) BMW structure pattern is wrong and RBR or Brawn GP structure is right. Another failure.

It is probably not flexible enough. But the structure has been changing since 2006 constantly since the team became bigger and bigger. They failed with results on track but you can not say that they didn't meet their internal aims given that they wanted to race KERS since Australia. They delivered their aims. The aims were wrong.

Quote:

soarq
Of course BMW did worst job in terms of KERS!

My point was that the only team that developed KERS was BMW Sauber. The other companies that did yes better job on KERS were Zytec, Magneti Marelli and possibly Automotive Hybrid Power. That proove BMW skills. But in the same time it also prooves that maybe they would do better if they outsource this system to somebody.

Quote:

soarq
Haven't you read last interview with Heidfeld? He confirmed they dumped KERS partly because their system affected braking and they couldn't solve it while others did manage to do it.
Also have in mind that Kubica couldn't race with KERS because he was too heavy and they couldn't balance the car properly.

Well, I don't know if realise about it but Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen weighted more or less the same as Robert and they did manage to balance their car and those drivers could use the system.

Those above are confirmed facts. I don't know how can you say BMW didn't do worse job than Ferrari & McLaren in terms of KERS.

These are all good point. I'm not saing that BMW did better job on KERS. All that I'm saing is that THEY did the job. Not Zytec, not Magneti Marelli, not Automotive Hybrid Power.

Quote:

soarq
Again, I want to remind you Formula 1 is still a sport and not buisness project. Sport should be on the foreground, buisness on the background. Unfortunately BMW reversed it - and it bit them badly.

Yes and that is the problem. Not Rampf skills or Theissen management. I totally agree with you.

Quote:

soarq
Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull were in the very same situation. And they are winning races. How isn't that a BMW failure? Again, remember Formula 1 is a sport and everything is relative there.

Ferrari and McLaren are bigger. Red BUll doesn't have KERS. But yes relatively they underperformed. It is sport sometimes you have to be worse then others.

Quote:

soarq
To set the record straight:
2006 - they improved all season long but of course it's much easier to find big chunks of performance when the car is slow

2007 - best BMW season in terms of development rate, they held 0,5s defficit to McLaren and Ferrari almost all season

2008 - they stood still from the very beginning, at first races it was 0.1-0.3s defficit, but by Turkey status quo from 2007 came back, and race by race other teams BMW was being caught by other teams

IMHO sth have changed at the end of 2007/at the beginning of 2008. It all started to rot from inside about that time.

Yet.
2008 - 135 points.
2007 - 101 points.
2006 - 36 points.
As I said earlier the team improved looking at 3 years of development. We can follow each and every race but the trend is there. The best comparisons would be in Australia GP 06 to 07 to 08... and so on with every race. But the trend is there. Up untill middle of 2008 by my reconing when decisions based on bad assumptions led to this season.

We are going a little bit off topic here. Whether we want or not Theissen is probably out and Rampf is probably retained (as a part of Hinwil team).

And the team is sold and has new future (in hands of good will of FOTA members, but nevertheless, there is future ).

Anyway Dr.T. is BMW's motorsport director so he stays with the company, doesn't he?

Remember that in 2007 we lost many points because of reliability issues. To get real potential of F1.07 you should double Heifelds points. Also take into consideration that Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton made very few mistakes.

In 2008 BMW fixed reliability but relative pace to McLaren and Ferrari was better than in 2007 only in first 3,4 races. From Turkey we had exactly same story as in 2007, additionaly other teams started to catch BMW race by race. If top drivers from Ferrari & McLaren didn't make so many mistakes, the points collected by BMW drivers would be more or less the same as in 2007. There was basically no relative improvement in 2008 in comparison to Ferrari/McLaren and race by race it was harder to stay with them. Kubica's win in Canada was obviously a fluke, there wasn't a single race when BMW had fastest car (and even Toro Rosso produced winning car for one race). Yes, probably they improved with new packages but in Formula 1 everything is relative hence I said they stood still all 2008 season. And I stand about as pace analysis proves it.

That's why I see no pace improvement in 2008 in comparison to 2007. Reliability was certainly fixed but pace hasn't changed for better.

Points don't always tell the real story in Formula 1. Everything in this sport is far more complex.

I'm still pretty sure bad things started to happen before 2008 season started.

Fortunately there's quite a good chance ex BMW will be on the grid next year. There's quite a big probability one of new teams won't make and Renault/Toyota situation is still not settled. Good for all the Hinwil staff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:15:22:59:42 by soarq.

There will be a spot on the grid for the team next year, I'm sure of that. The bigger issue is whether the team stands a chance of being revived or not by these new "investors." Right now I'd say there is as much doubt about the team's legitimacy going forward as there is surrounding the new entries.

The fact that BMW announced the sale just after they were refused the 13th spot does not fill me with confidence.

BMW's greatest sin in all of this is that they needlessly let Petronas walk away. Petronas was always the most important backer of the team before BMW came along, and they have a strong desire to be in F1. If BMW had signed the Concorde Agreemnet then Petronas would've likely stayed, but with the uncertainty surrounding the team they bolted for Lotus. Unforgiveable conduct from BMW.

After just 3 1/2 years of ownership they've left the team in much worse financial shape than when they took over.

BMW have left an impressive swath of destruction behind them. They crippled a storied team like Williams and have done the same to one of the last stalwart pioneer teams in F1.

Polish posters* following local politics, even briefly, will notice that that BMW Sauber investors seem very much like the one that were supposed to buy Polish shipyards in July... LOL

Last minute deal announced. Now let's wait if the payment arrives ;-)

*for others: Polish government was racing against the time and EU Comission to find the investor not to bunkrupt the shipyards that required constant government subsidising.

They 'won' announcing deal with some fund, representing Qatar investors, only to find out that final payment is never to arrive.

Good riddens! I'm glad BMW is gone! It pained me to watch them suffer like that! If ForceIndia is producing progress with their budget and BMW can't then BMW needs to go! They were hurting the mark! I waited years for BMW to come back as a factory team and this is not what I expected. I will miss the team for sure. As a BMW enthusiasts for 24 years it hurts me to see them go, but BMW did the right thing and I support their decision.

There are always lots of regrets and what-ifs when a team splits. There will be time enough for reflection when the dust has settled and some of the wounds have healed. The important thing from my point of view is that the team will survive.

Has anyone heard anything of Peter's F1 future? It would be such a shame for F1 to lose such an enthusiast.

Williams and proud of it.

I think some of you make avaialability error while assesing BMW SAuber and its management.

Of course 2008 development and 2009, Kers failure where major @#$%& ups by BMW management. But contrary to what some suggest it is not easy to get into top three in a year. Renault, Toyota, Red Bull, Williams are good examples of how difficult it is and how much it takes. On the other hand it is very easy to fall down from top three to midfield. In 2009 in top three there will be no team that was in top three in 2006 (except maybe for Ferrari if they continue like that). Except for Ferrari and McLaren since 2006 no team managed to stay in top three longer than two seasons, and these are twice bigger teams than BMW. Renault fallen down and cannot bounce back, Honda screwed royally and it took their biggest chassis department in F1 two years to bounce back

The difference between Mario and Flav, Nick Fry, Frank Williams, Martin Whitmarsh or some other of the pack is that unlike all them he had no margin of error. First bad season and BMW pulls the plug.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:16:08:07:16 by Walsingham.

Just managed some internet access, incredibly hectic days lately for me; sorry for no Monza coverage.

Just learnt about the buy out, will try to catch up soon. Please let me know which is the current state of the team regarding that 14th spot

Racing against the machine!

According to german Sport Bild (here) the price tag for the team was 80 mln € and the team will have Ferrari engine and gearbox.

ironically it may be the case that the Sauber future may depend on the effectes of the 23rd's crashgate meeting and Renault...hope to have 14 teams instead, but who knows...

Ferrari engine? Better than Coswroth, but still very thristy in a year that refuelling is banned...oh well, we should thnak the team was saved

Racing against the machine!

There will be talks amid teams to temporary unfreeze the engines before 2010. Ferrari will certainly fix its problem, and others should be able to get closer to Mercedes performance.

An interview with Peter Sauber:

[videoportal.sf.tv]

2008 Prediction Champion



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009:09:16:12:44:44 by barteks.

So we finally reached that day when Flavio "clown" Briatore won't be around.

You know what? I have a gut feeling that BMW perfectly knows that Qadbak is a fake company, that is not going to buy the team... They never intended to sell Hinwil factory but they needed to do something for PR purposes. That's why they chose some fictitious investment group from Qatar and when it will be to late to find other purchaser, BMW will announce that Qadbak didn't pay any money and they will shut down the factory or will use for other pursposes

2008 Prediction Champion

Don't think that will happen Barteks, fortunately.

Qadbak is a very dark group, but not a fake one. If BMW did what you say would only jeopardise furthermore their image, as would look totally stupid.

Qadbak is most likely a group of people who have lot of money, good part of it gotten in dubious ways and stored in tax heavens, that are profiting the crisis nearing an end to re-position their investments. And what better than a highly-exposed F1 team with on going reducing costs?

They don't care about racing, but see it as a great assed to get more money and sponsor.

It is pretty much like CVC, but in a darker way.

Racing against the machine!

Tony Fernandez of Lotus confirms they are in negotiations to secure sponsorship from Petronas.

[www.tomorrownewsf1.com]

Le Team Lotus F1 Malaysia a annoncé être en pourparler avec Petronas afin de devenir un des sponsors principaux de l’équipe à partir de 2010.

Le pétrolier d’état malaisien est en fin de contrat avec l’équipe BMW-Sauber (expiration fin 2009) et même si Peter Sauber a sondé ses partenaires de 14 ans, l’arrivée du consortium de pétrodollars Qadbak, a bouleverser les projets.

Tony Fernandez, le nouveau patron du Team Lotus a confirmé que Petronas pourrait bien arriver, mais aussi Alex Yoong, obscure pilote Minardi entre 2001 et 2002, qui rejoindra l’équipe mais pas comme pilote (ouf) mais dans l’équipe de gestion et de représentation d’image.

The team's grid slot still uncertain, with WIlliams still reluctant on giving that positon:

[www.autosport.com]

IMO the "we don't know who the owners are" excuse is pretty lame, as thats no issue that Williams should care of. In the end its mor down to Williams unhappy with BMW/Theissen from the past, and fearing that Qadbak may still have a fast car.

As always the F1 politics is full of hypocresy

Racing against the machine!

Quote:

fearing that Qadbak may still have a fast car.

Notts County and BMW Sauber on edge of cracks in Qadbak facade

Investment portfolio that includes Notts County faces further uncertainty as doubts are raised over BMW Sauber


Matt Scott guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 6 October 2009 00.10 BST

A Notts County spokesman said comments casting doubt on Qadbak's deal with BMW Sauber were 'not of any relevance'.

Fresh indications have appeared that cracks are opening in Qadbak's "multibillion-dollar" investment portfolio, which includes Notts County and, supposedly, BMW Sauber.

At Sauber, the announcement from BMW that the Formula One team had found a "strong investor" has apparently been undermined. The Swiss newspaper Sonntags Zeitung tracked down Oswald Grübel, the chief executive of UBS and on the BMW Sauber board, who called the transaction a "possible sale". There has not been a BMW Sauber board meeting in the three weeks since the deal was announced. A spokesman for Notts County said Grübel had not been party to talks with Qadbak and "so his comments are not of any relevance".

County also dispute the significance of the denial by Moeen Qureshi that he knows anything of Qadbak. The former prime minister of Pakistan was named by the League Two club as "a member of the trust which financed the purchase of the club". Qadbak points out that this means he "is a member of the family, not one of the investors".

Then there is Swiss Commodity Holding, which purports to have built £100bn in assets under management since its inception earlier this year and of whom Sven-Goran Eriksson, County's director of football, is a significant shareholder. Sonntags Zeitung says only Nathan and Peter Willett, both Qadbak directors, are left as members of Swiss Commodity Holding's board since the resignation of its Swiss nominee.

Under Swiss company law, that means a new Swiss citizen must be found or the company will be dissolved. The Willetts would not comment, but it would be a careless way to lose £100bn.

Good news for Sauber/Qadbak...if they make it to the 2010 grid:
[www.autosport.com]

Racing against the machine!

Why it's good news?

Marmoni is a good engineer, though its difficult to rate if better or not than Simon.
The point is that despite the freeze, they are still looking o their engine department...to bad no
engine re-tuning allowed for next season...

Racing against the machine!

Ok. But Toyota engine is not tipped as a winner actually...

For me it rather looks like less focus on egnine so they let their guru go. And bring back the guy who used to work in Maranello and is pleased to be closer home

OK, but first Qadbak desperately needs to find a free slot on the grid

2008 Prediction Champion

Why BMW didn't sign the Concorde Agreement, and other stuff at: [joesaward.wordpress.com]

...The problem was that the Munich car manufacturer did not sign up to the Concorde Agreement after announcing that it was quitting F1 on July 29. This was a disastrous mistake in F1 terms, although BMW must have known what it was doing. The decision seems to have been taken so as to avoid the company having to include any financial commitments related to F1 on its balance sheet, something which might have scared investors and had a negative effect on the company share price. At the time the BMW share price stood at €27 and dropped to €25 a few days later. It has since risen to €35, which is twice the value it was in October last year, when it bottomed out at €17, but still a long way short of €50 it hit in May 2007.

BMW clearly knew that not signing the Concorde Agreement was a risk but perhaps did not expect Team Lotus to pop up with such a strong project.



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There' always two sides with such a business decision.

Yes then did not carry any reserves for F1 costs, but they would have to write off into costs all non-amortized 'goodwill' from assets, that for sure was there since aquisition of Sauber. Also all investments made after purchase would have to be put into costs immediately as a write off.

On other hand without going forward costs reserves, they had to accrue reserves for costs related to dismanttling the team (personell severances biggest of them)

I think it was sudden decision. Accountants and lawyers worked over few nights and that was the decision they took in limited time.

Wrong one. Very wrong one.

Bit of info I found:

The Swiss delegate to the FIA claimed that there were no official talks at the meeting last Friday but that "Sauber will be racing next year".

Racing against the machine!

Quote:

Raid Phoenix
Bit of info I found:
The Swiss delegate to the FIA claimed that there were no official talks at the meeting last Friday but that "Sauber will be racing next year".

I find it hard to believe the team won't be racing.

None of the new entrants have yet come up with a car and not a single sponsorship deal has been signed.

Quote:

Gunk

None of the new entrants have yet come up with a car and not a single sponsorship deal has been signed.

They aren't required to announce anything if they want.

Quote:

devil500

Quote:

Gunk

None of the new entrants have yet come up with a car and not a single sponsorship deal has been signed.

They aren't required to announce anything if they want.

But they would announce in thei own interest. Confirming budget is key to attrackt talent both in and outside the car.

[www.newsonf1.co.uk]

Founder angry new F1 teams 'disturb' Sauber plans.


Oct.26 (GMM) Peter Sauber has expressed anger that the future of the Hinwil based formula one team he founded in the early 90s is currently in serious peril.


Although sold by the withdrawing carmaker BMW to the mysterious Qadbak consortium, the team does not have a place on next year's grid, after the FIA transferred its entry to the new Lotus outfit.


At that time, the Qadbak deal had not been finalised, and the three currently vacant team slots had already been allocated to the new USF1, Manor and Campos teams.


Williams has vetoed Sauber's application for a guaranteed 14th entry for 2010, meaning the Swiss based camp is left hoping that one of the new teams' plans fall over in the near future.


Peter Sauber, who maintained a 20 per cent interest in the team throughout the BMW era as well as a consultancy role, called the situation with F1's new teams "a joke".


"They do not have to prove anything and yet they disturb our plans for next season," the 66-year-old, referring to the fact that the newly Qadbak-owned camp cannot appoint drivers or reach agreements with sponsors, while designing a car that may never race, told the Swiss newspaper Blick.


Sauber suggested he is angry that the fate of an established team hangs in the balance while some of the new teams might quickly come and go.


"Perhaps the four (new teams) will have cars in Bahrain, but will have run out of money by 2011," he added.


The team's preview of the Abu Dhabi season finale said it hopes to keep racing in 2010 "under Peter Sauber".


Current team boss Mario Theissen, the BMW motor sport director, has said he is not ready to announce his plans until after the 2009 season is concluded.

The people behind Sauber...http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/the-people-behind-sauber/

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Two families from Pakistan... What u surprise... it took them so long to react to Vijay's investment.

All we need now is the team renamed to Force Pakistan.

Oh and new race venue... Grand Prix of Kashmir.

The Hindy 500 sounds good, no ?

sessions

Quote:

Gemm
Two families from Pakistan... What u surprise... it took them so long to react to Vijay's investment.
All we need now is the team renamed to Force Pakistan.

Oh and new race venue... Grand Prix of Kashmir.

Actually the important bit of the article, and that we didn't know already, is that the real main backer is those mining companies, united as SCH, most notably Rio Tinto, as well as BHP Billiton and Anglo American.

That would mean serious backing, and actually reduce our suspicious that the money was coming from, lets say amoral, sources.

So, IF the team manages to get a slot, it should have a solid base for continuing as more than just a normal weak privateer, and go back to the Sauber days but actually without the financial probs of those times

Racing against the machine!

It may not be any of the new teams who "save" Sauber by failing to make it to the grid, but Toyota instead. There is still strong uncertainty about their future: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/the-future-of-toyota-in-f1/

Racing against the machine!

British an German newspapers reveals that Toyota has scheduled a press conference to announce its plans for 2010. It looks like a deja vu, doesn't it? It might be good news for Sauber.

Here are some words of Toyota president from June:

Quote:

Akio Toyoda
[...] But we may have stretched more than we should have, and that made us unable to capitalize on Toyota's traditional strengths.
With this in mind, the way forward is clear.
As a company, we must reaffirm and all share the mission of contributing to society through the manufacture of automobiles. And, we must implement the principles Toyota has held to firmly through times of trouble.
Yes, the going will still be tough for the next few years, but if all Toyota companies around the world come together and reaffirm Toyota’s mission, Toyota WILL bounce back. My immediate goal is to work from this low point in our business upward so we can return to profitability as soon as possible.
[...]
The recently released third-generation Prius is a prime example of this spirit. I am certain this car will satisfy both the needs of society as well as our customers.
The second thing I want us to focus on is making sure our management places priority on meeting the needs of regional markets. In other words, a management style that closely watches consumers and markets, notices changes, and allows those best acquainted with a particular market to make prompt decisions.
The structure of our new executive vice presidents reflects this idea. I have asked each one to take responsibility for specific regions around the world.
Together, we will create clear “Regional Vision” plans by determining what role Toyota should play and what we want to achieve in each region. We will also consider our capacity and the market situation in those regions, in order to identify areas where we want to advance, and areas where we need to take a step back. These decisions will allow us to better prioritize the allocation of our resources.
Through these processes, I would like to make Toyota’s product development and product lineup more region-focused. We will change our policy from achieving “a full lineup everywhere” to “a lineup necessary to meet the needs of each region”. We will also launch new vehicles that anticipate consumer needs and are exciting to drive.[...]

The direction from top management seems to be against F1. F1 is a global platform and since Toyoda wants to focus on each region individually there is less importance for global leverage. What is more it seems that the company should focus on its core activities which is manufacture of cars aimed at consumer needs.

3rd Japanese company to withdraw from F1? WTF

2008 Prediction Champion

crisis is perfect excuse for all who want to quit becasue they can't win

Sad that Sauber has to be saved by another team retiring and leaving their workers on the same situation. Hopefully Toyota could move them to Le Mans or other series.

Ah, and agreed Gemm.

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Still on hold, says Peter: http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=352213

Racing against the machine!

Any idea of when this could happen ?
Every moment of preparation is precious to having a re-designed car successful.

CHOP! CHOP!

sessions

Not an exact idea, but rather soon, now that is clear that Toyota won't sell the team.

Don't worry, this wait won't affect car design. In what it might impact on a certain extent is the sponsorship side, but won't be big deal, as current sponsors including Petronas are now expected to continue, and search for new ones should be on the way.

Things are looking good after all

Racing against the machine!

Quote:

Raid Phoenix
Things are looking good after all

Of course I hope so and I continue to cross my fingers and say a prayer every night to the F1 gods, but what word of recent rumours over Qadbak 'sham'?

Does anyone know what national colours this team will race under next season? I know the team are based in Switzerland, but BMW made them race under the german flag. What nationality is QADBAK?

Will they race under the British Virgin Isles flag?

Who knows? So far nobody knows nothing about Qadbak...

2008 Prediction Champion

When you Google Qadbek and follow the story:
These names keep occurring

The Anwar/Shafi family, Peter Walichnowski, Peter Willet and Majid Al Fullaim.

Munto Fianance also is repeated often.

Locations mentioned are: England, Pakistan, Iran, Dubai, and British Virgin Islands.

Can't make heads or tails of it, but they exist. Sounds like it's major money and who knows what all they have their fingers into.

sessions

Russell King, a senior representative of Qadbak, the offshore company that owns Notts County, has had £1.9m of his assets frozen by the courts in Jersey over an unpaid debt. King emerged as a key figure at the heart of a web of companies connected with the Notts County takeover.

As well as leading negotiations with the supporters' trust over the purchase of the club by the investment vehicle Qadbak in July, and the appointment of Peter Trembling as chief executive, King and his business associate, Nathan Willett, were involved with Sven-Goran Eriksson's recruitment to Meadow Lane as director of football. The actual owners of the club have never been revealed and Eriksson admitted yesterday that he had never met them.

In a separate development it emerged that Eriksson had been promised a paper fortune by Willett and his father, Peter, who is a director of Notts County, if he worked on a separate company of which they are the sole directors.

The former England manager was handed a substantial shareholding in a Zurich-registered company called Swiss Commodity Holding AG, whose directors are the Willetts. Like Sol Campbell, who quit the club on Tuesday, Eriksson was asked to work as an ambassador for the company's many interests overseas.