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What a load of tosh! Lets have an annoying luvvy like Elaine Smith patronise us and tell us how we should behave at the football. Most decent people know the boundaries of what is acceptable and unacceptable socially and can keep well within those boundaries. References to H U N S and T I M S on various sites as well as verbally are now liable to see people being locked up yet this is not a simple matter and surely the context of the useage needs also to be taken into consideration.

I'm sure a lot of you older fans will be familiar with the term "sand-dancer" when levelled at a footballer and have no thought whatsoever as to it being a racist term yet 2 seasons ago an elderly male, 70s - 80s was incarcerated at The Falkirk Stadium for daring to shout this exact phrase because someone nearby without an ounce of common sense though he was being racist because a Moroccan player was on the pitch. Where does the line for such remarks get drawn and who makes up the list, well the answer to that is no-one makes a list, if one member of the public or one plod for example thinks you are being racist/sectarian/homophobic then that's it decided.

We already live in a Nanny state and I do not want any further prompts from the do-gooders listed above telling me how I should and shouldn't behave. There is no excuse for unprovoked assaults or violence toward any member of society based solely on race, religion, creed, colour, sexuality etc and everyone should know that. Anyone who targets individuals based on these differences is committing an offence and should rightly be dealt with.

The one major difference here is the tribalism element associated with football where people attach themselves to football clubs based on religion and yes I am referring to those two monstrosities from Glasgow. The general levels of hatred spouted by a lot of their fans goes way beyond any traditional rivalry between clubs and this is where the law should start, but unfortunately it seems that they are too afraid to go and make an example of the real morons because there are too many of them so instead are targetting the smaller clubs where people can be singled out and lifted.

We should not be abusing fans or players based on any of the above criteria either but it has been taken too far when the H and T words are not allowed to be used. I've a lot of good friends and relatives who are one or the other and these words are used all the time between us without any hatred or violence and that is where the do-gooders should leave it. Yes if I or anyone else went on to commit a crime based on race, religion, creed, colour or sexuality then the punishment should reflect the hatred element but the mere usage of some of these words in themselves should not be considered a crime as at present. We can no longer pop along to the P**i shop for a paper or carry out, or nip to the Ch**ky for some chips n curry sauce, my son can probably no longer refer to me as a proddy or I to him as a T*m lest someone else perceive that we are being racist.

This country is absolutely @#$%& up and we have enough do-gooders already without being preached at by this lot.

"there's no reincarnation, you're only human once, so make yourself at home"

Can someone summarise that?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:09:07:08:43:44 by Arthur Wilson.

Show Bigotry the Red Card - whilst I somewhat agree with the sentiments, what you are really proposing is

Show Sectarianism the Red Card

Call it what it is, unless you are planning to tackle the other problems too.

The majority of sectarianism is not confined to football, although that is when passions are running high, and people are passionate to vent their frustrations.

If you truely want tackle this problem, then work with the churches, fine the head of the churches for this, not the football clubs, as this is only one place that it manifests itself, not where the problem arises.

Load a P***

No surrender

Agree wih the principle, however what happens in reality is that any justified criticism of a religeous or ethnic group becomes taboo, which in turn raises some undesirable elements of these groups above the law

If the Scottish Executive or any one else for that matter really wanted to tackle sectarianism they would abolish sectarian schools. So long as a minority religion gets preferential treatment there will be sectarianism.

Quote:

ACC
If the Scottish Executive or any one else for that matter really wanted to tackle sectarianism they would abolish sectarian schools. So long as a minority religion gets preferential treatment there will be sectarianism.

If "Protestants", Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Jedis or whoever wanted to start their own schools then they should be free to do so - like C of E / Jews in England. As long as they're funded directly by subscription and employ teachers who have been trained independently. And the core curriculum should be set by the Govt. That way we can all respect peoples' right to worship/learn in their own way. If the State funds education then it should be utterly catholic (small "c") with no one single religion being taught.

A grown-up society should be able to allow people to co-exist even if they don't fully agree.

Quite right Polomint BUT why should others subsidise Roman Catholic schools as we do at present? Going one further,why should the British taxpayer be funding the visit of the head of the Roman Catholic church?

Quote:

Lord Roden
Quite right Polomint BUT why should others subsidise Roman Catholic schools as we do at present? Going one further,why should the British taxpayer be funding the visit of the head of the Roman Catholic church?

We shouldn't subsidise catholic Schools, nor the visit of Religious figures doing religious duties - heads of state or ambassadorial visits excepted.

Personally I'd completely ban religion in education, but I recognise the right of others to have their own views. I just don't want to pay for them.

I'm personally sceptical about the effect that abolishing Catholic schools would have on social attitudes. For one thing, the same problems existed in at least as obnoxious a form before the schools were established.

I'm a Presbyterian, but in order to do my Higher Spanish course when I was at school I had to go to the nearest school which offered the course, which happened to be a Catholic school. I didn't feel any sense of being different, an there was no hostility at all - in fact aside from a few genuinely curious questions ("So is the Moderator basically like the Pope?") you'd have been hard put to say there was any religious divide at all in the classroom (besides my not having a name like Kevin, Michael or Pablo).

I think it goes to a wider mistake that people have: that the schools can fix every problem with no effort at all from wider society. Health, for instance. Schools can teach about healthy eating, provide free fruit and make the kids do PE, but if they go home and are fed chips, pizza and microwave foods washed down with fizzy drinks and sit all evening in front of the television or computer, they will still be overweight.

Ditto languages - kids can be given hours of French, German, Spanish, Gaelic, Scots or whatever else in the school - but if they go home and all entertainment, news, conversation etc. is in English they will still be functionally monolingual.

The same, I think, goes for religious sectarianism - kids can be taught about accepting others, tolerance and so an, but it won't make a difference if they hear biggoted views spouted by role models (such as parents) or chanted at the football. We have a case in point with racism - all schools teach that racism is A Bad Thing, and schools are not segregated on grounds of race, but racism still exists in society at large.

I'm not suggesting that integrating schooling would do no good at all, or that it should not be done. It should. But to pretend that this will fix the problem is lazy, and requires that all the effort to fix the Catholic/ Protestant divide come from the Catholics. It takes two sides to make the problem, it will take two to fix it. That starts with people changing their mindset, owning the mistakes of their own "side" and resolving to be reconciled. Integrated schools will help with that, but won't do the whole job.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010:09:07:19:10:23 by Dunc da Diamond.

if u think prodiestants and catholics will ever "fix the divide" your off your head

How can there be reconciliation when one side is infalible and does not make mistakes, Even when they are covering up murders and peadophilia. We should not be apologising for the Reformation, okay some of the excesses of the covenaters where regretable however you have to consider the times in which they lived and the brutality against them. There is nothing wrong with sectarianism it is the violence that is wrong.

<> LR - posted this elsewhere - I think the Govt. is part funding the p. visit as he is a head of state - head of the Vatican State? <>

If the Roman church want their own schools fine, but please don't expect me to pay for them,especially as there are non denominational schools that all can attend."When in Rome do as the Romans do".Should work both ways,but hey,we don't want to upset anyone do we?Wouldn't want to be classed as biased or bigotted.

i've read the full thread now.......and really wish I hadn't.

[quote Polomint
We shouldn't subsidise catholic Schools, nor the visit of Religious figures doing religious duties - heads of state or ambassadorial visits excepted.quote]

So you are happy that your tax money covers the costs of kings and queens that live in a palace eating tasty swan sandwiches and quails eggs, just beacause 500 years ago one of their relatives chopped/stabbed/poisened himself to the position of king.

Yes, they are so much better than us, lets bow and courtsey while they live off us like parasitic leaches.

Quote:

Dunc da Diamond
I'm a Presbyterian, but in order to do my Higher Spanish course when I was at school I had to go to the nearest school which offered the course, which happened to be a Catholic school.

When I was at school the St Maggie's kids used to have to come up to Caldervale to study Latin. Whodathunkit?

Quote:

Dunc da Diamond
I didn't feel any sense of being different, an there was no hostility at all

On occasion, I used to get dogs abuse when I went to St Maggies for sixth year physics. Luckily I was pals with a few of the harder lads from the school and they kept me safe.

None of the Airdrie Academy folk said anything to me when I went there for maths. They probably saw the Caldervale uniform and sh@t it.

Can we start by having dawn raids on Hamish Husband and the rest of his bigot army for booing a foreign national anthem at Hampden last night, a national disgrace. Scotlands real shame.

Quote:

Stuart Craig

Quote:

Dunc da Diamond
I'm a Presbyterian, but in order to do my Higher Spanish course when I was at school I had to go to the nearest school which offered the course, which happened to be a Catholic school.

When I was at school the St Maggie's kids used to have to come up to Caldervale to study Latin. Whodathunkit?

Quote:

Dunc da Diamond
I didn't feel any sense of being different, an there was no hostility at all

On occasion, I used to get dogs abuse when I went to St Maggies for sixth year physics. Luckily I was pals with a few of the harder lads from the school and they kept me safe.

None of the Airdrie Academy folk said anything to me when I went there for maths. They probably saw the Caldervale uniform and sh@t it.

<> The Academy NEVER ran from the 'Vale. <>

Quote:

Stuart Craig

Quote:

Dunc da Diamond
I'm a Presbyterian, but in order to do my Higher Spanish course when I was at school I had to go to the nearest school which offered the course, which happened to be a Catholic school.

When I was at school the St Maggie's kids used to have to come up to Caldervale to study Latin. Whodathunkit?

Quote:

Dunc da Diamond
I didn't feel any sense of being different, an there was no hostility at all

On occasion, I used to get dogs abuse when I went to St Maggies for sixth year physics. Luckily I was pals with a few of the harder lads from the school and they kept me safe.

None of the Airdrie Academy folk said anything to me when I went there for maths. They probably saw the Caldervale uniform and sh@t it.

Highly unlikely.

More like we have standards and would never have bullied one Caldervale mink on his jack. Now had there been a few more of you then a sound thrashing would have been dished out.

Academy Aggro
Vigilantibus

Think this thread is more appropriate for the Tartan Army Message Board after their total disrespect to the Liechtensten anthem the other night.

Quote:

Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett VC DSO KCB
Can we start by having dawn raids on Hamish Husband and the rest of his bigot army for booing a foreign national anthem at Hampden last night, a national disgrace. Scotlands real shame.

It's debatable what is the more cringe worthy....the booing of another nation's anthem or the fact they can't keep in time to the music of their own "so called" anthem. National Colonial embarrassment!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:09:09:10:36:17 by Scott H.

and some of us find it an embarrassment that a lot of people in this country for what ever reason dont even follow their own national team. But each to their own.
and your excuses of, becasue they are@#$%&dont cut it with me. has that ever stopped you supporting airdrie?

and guys i think you will find scotlands real shame is things like the drink and drugs problems or the secterian issues we have, not the tartan army ffs!
we have heard it all before, is it not about time you give it up and just either support your country or dont even waste your time with pathetic posts like these.

for sectarian - read booing another soverign nations anthem, you dont really get a lot do you !!!!, just keep jumping on bandwagons , you'll go far

I thought the One Show's choice of "Papa don't Preach" as accompanying music to their piece on the Pope's visit as inspired.

what is the difference between abusing a team or their fans because of their nationality to abusing a team or their fans because of their religion. You can't choose where you where born but you can choose your religion. The behaviour of the Tartan Army is far worse than the Old Firm.

Quote:

weasel
and some of us find it an embarrassment that a lot of people in this country for what ever reason 1- dont even follow their own national team. But each to their own.
and your excuses of, 2- becasue they are@#$%&dont cut it with me. has that ever stopped you supporting airdrie?

and guys i think you will find scotlands real shame is things like the drink and drugs problems or 3- the secterian issues we have, not the tartan army ffs!we have heard it all before, is it not about time you give it up and just either 4- support your country or dont even waste your time with pathetic posts like these.

To a degree I understand where you're coming from, however because I felt the need to post (above), some people decide to take out of it what they want.

1- I do follow Scotland - doesn't mean I condone the booing of any other Nations anthem.

2- I have become accustomed to the the standard we produce.

3- The thread is related to bigotry and not Scotland's performance or whether people support them or not. It has merely been pointed out that perhaps some of the Scottish support (TA) should also take the title of the thread on board, given ther actions the other night.

4- Unfortunately I'm unable to support my Country as it appears to be a "closed shop" IMO. Only 35000 are guaranteed tickets. The same 35000 are also privvy to sections of the SFA/Scotland website no one else can access. Is it some kind of secret society? It's no wonder people turn off at the mention of Scotland. Yes I'd probably get a ticket for games such as the other night, however I certainly wouldn't pay £30 for going to watch the "standard we produce". In effect it was no better than watching a top SPL team (having an "off day") playing (at best) a mid table 1st Division team.

Bottom line is I believe the some of the TA have a bigoted attitude to other Nations, as was demonstrated the other night and therefor should also be shown "the red card"!

you honestly saying booing a national anthem is worse than some of the things happening in this country?
And for your information yes i will go far. i just love how you always seem to get personal when your fighting your corner on here. think also you will find im not jumping on any bandwagon. Just saying my opinion if you dont like it tuff.
and just to wind you up a little, iv been guilty of booing other national anthems after a bottle of tonic. for me its just as bad as some of the stuff us airdrie fans come away with at games.

ACC that is a matter of opinion so in your book kicking lumps out of people after your team get beat on a sunday etc or going to manchester and wreckign the place and nearly killing cops is ok in your book but booing a national anthem is terrible and worse for you. i have heard it all now.

Of course violence is unacceptable and I referred to the fact that it is the violence which is the problem not the sectarianism itself in an earlier post. If Celtic and Rangers fans want to go to a match and sing songs celebrating their history and decrying the others believes so what they know what to expect and in general they accept it. How can you justify the abuse of English fans who in general have no anamosity to you. Please tell me how this is acceptable. Are you saying there has been no unprovoked violence towards England supporters in Scotland? How many times have Scotland fans gone to London and trashed the place?

I cant read the initial post due to some @#$%& stupid advert(that is impossble to shut down) covering half the text.

The whole idea is nothing more than publicity seeking crap. If they had any serious ointentions in eradicating this sectarianism that supposedly engulfs Scotland then they should be questioning the discriminatory recruitment practices in RC schools and the religous aparthied we have for kids aged 4 and up.

Thanks for your comments, the hypocacy of the so called tartan army is almost as big as their self praise. The so called best supported in the world cause a national disgrace and you are on here blaming everything and everyone else for their shame. In the bigger scheme of things you may be right alcoholism and drugs may be a blight on our society but so is intolerance and bigotry.

Apparently youngsters are into Chips, Cheese and Curry sauce in one dish! One dish I tell you! Imagine the horror!
Outrageous I say!

Prefer chips cheese & donner meat myself

Goes down fantastic after a night on the sauce

How very uncouth.

So in a game where Liechtenstein players committed 2 "horror" tackles, each of which could have been career-ending (see John Kennedy), George "the organist" Peat thinks that some stupid banter was worth commenting on instead. Ridiculous!

Quote:

ACC
The behaviour of the Tartan Army is far worse than the Old Firm.

Aye the parents of the teenage laddie that got his throat cut walking from belgrove to parkhead because he went past brigton, would agree that booing a tune that sounds like god save the queen is much worse than the behaviour of the old firm.

we are going back a bit now. As I say I am not talking about the nutters who think nothing of stabbing or atacking someone sadly that is just so prevalent in this wonderful country of ours. My exageration is as invalid as your down playing of the bahaviour of some (most) Scotland fans. There s a general unfounded anti English ethos amongst Scotland fans which is no better than being anti Catholic, black or whatever. Time to be honest and see this bigotry for what it is.

Fair doos, but I've been abroad to scotland games and never felt unsafe and only once at home, when I was daydreaming and nearly walked into the cordoned off english gorrillas section at central station at an eng/sco match (I'm not including the night when 2 burds were fighting on the drumgelloch train after the italy match!).

Folk get p*shed and folk p*ss in gardens, but go to any "big team" and you will see the same.
I've seen folk hushed and booed at scotland matches for shouting stuff that is out of order, but never at ibrox. I have even seen guys pointed out to stewards for chucking plastic bottles. (scots fans are grasses will be the next complaint).

If I put a gun to your head right now and ordered you to either run round hampden carpark in an england shirt or run up paisley road west in a celtic shirt I think I know what you would pick.

scotland have anti england, england have anti germans/ argentina etc. we have anti mwell. this team has anti this and that team has anti that.

its not as if scotland are the only ones to not like soemone. Its called football banter and about time people realised that.
no matter what you say, ill have the same feeling for engliand football team and other english things i dont like. nothgin you say will ever change that. at the same time im sure you hate a few things and nothgin will change that. admit it, bet you hate motherwell or thistle. so does that make you a bigot as well?

Quote:

weasel
scotland have anti england, england have anti germans/ argentina etc. we have anti mwell. this team has anti this and that team has anti that.
its not as if scotland are the only ones to not like soemone. Its called football banter and about time people realised that.
no matter what you say, ill have the same feeling for engliand football team and other english things i dont like. nothgin you say will ever change that. at the same time im sure you hate a few things and nothgin will change that. admit it, bet you hate motherwell or thistle. so does that make you a bigot as well?

I don't particularly hate Motherwell or Thistle

I like punching them though

....and demonstrate about the pope's visit to our shores.