Rec Debate Page 2

By Glen Leat
September 10 2005

The Rec Debate Letters

Here is a catalogue of letters that have appeared in the Bath Chronicle of late as part of the debate on whether Bath Rugby should be allowed to sympathetically develop its ground  on The Rec.

Pro Bath Rugby At The Rec Letters Page 2

MAJORITY VIEW ON REC MUST PREVAIL

23 August 2005

I Have been enthralled over the last several years to read so many letters to The Bath Chronicle addressing the issue of the Recreation Ground and whether or not Bath Rugby should continue to play its matches there. I had already researched and drafted this letter before reading one from Rob Ziegler (Letters Friday August 19, 'Get on with Rec plan as soon as possible'), wherein he harboured some very similar views.

Like Mr Ziegler, I have observed that while there seem to be a considerable number of different correspondents supporting rugby on the Rec, there were but a few in opposition - writers I mean (ie plenty of letters, but all penned by the same three or four individuals).

So, several weeks ago, I decided to conduct my own piece of research. Armed with my note pad and calculator, I set off for the library to go back through the last six months' Letters pages and see if I could establish a few indisputable facts.

I counted only four correspondents (albeit 14 letters) opposing the playing of rugby on the Rec. The vast majority were from DG Drew, with a few from PD Inman, Y Harding and A Hooper.

There were 29 correspondents (35 letters) supporting the playing of rugby on the Rec. Quite an enlightening piece of research I thought, and one which I am happy to share with others.

It clearly suggests that by repeatedly sending in a stream of letters, there is a very, very small minority of individuals who, for reasons best known to themselves, are attempting to impose their own rather narrow views about rugby on the Rec on the mahority.

During my research, I also came across several letters and articles that made reference to the Friends of Bath Residents Recreation Ground and one Worthy Gilson, So, I thought it worthwhile trying to learn more about this group as he, speaking on behalf of its supposed membership, seemed to have rather a lot to say. However, after making endless inquiries and telephone calls, I came to the conclusion that this so-called representative body is basically a one- man band purporting to represent vast numbers of constituents, but for which no corroborating evidence exists, at least none I could find.

The chairman will, I am sure, argue to the contrary, but since he refuses to produce one shred of evidence to authenticate his claims, we can only assume they have no substance.

As I understand it, the organisation is not registered, it has no offices, no democratically elected officers, conducts no meetings, has no charter or mandate, no members, no minutes and produces no publications or literature. To all intents and purposes, it simply does not exist. Thank goodness we live in a democratic society where the majority view will eventually prevail.

Having said that, Mr Gilson's uncorroborated and exaggerated claims of collective opposition somehow still get the attention of individuals in the council, the charities commission and Bath Rugby - but why is that? Has anybody questioned his motives or, as a minimum, insisted he ratify or substantiate his claims concerning the number of constituents he professes represents? Put less politely, I think he should be told, 'put up or shut up'.

Let's face it, if the majority of people who pay council tax in Bath & North East Somerset were opposed to the playing of rugby on the Rec, I am certain our local politicians would act quickly to appease these voters.

However, our councillors are faced with a situation where more than 10,000 people vote with their feet every other winter weekend by attending Bath Rugby home games. There would probably be a lot more if the ground capacity could accommodate a bigger percentage of the 30,000 who supported the team in the Powergen Cup Final.

Bath traders welcome the club's presence in the city because of the obvious economic upside it generates. Just as significantly, the Pulteney Street Residents Association - those perhaps most affected by the crowds that are attracted to the games - also support rugby at the Rec.

In my view, Mr Gilson is a lone voice in a massively happy and contented crowd (excuse pun) - a crowd for whom the Rec currently provides good, clean, trouble-free, family entertainment, and which satisfies the needs of so many local families. All of this while leaving plenty of space on the Rec for others to similarly enjoy their own particular leisure pursuits. A win-win situation if ever I saw one and a benefit which should be improved upon as soon as possible.

STAN FRITH
Prior Park Rd
Bath

DON’T THROW BATH RUGBY AWAY

25 August 2005

I AM a supporter of Wasps Rugby Club.

At least once a year, my wife and I visit your city to watch the game between Bath Rugby and Wasps. During our visits we shop in the local shops, we drink in the local pubs, we eat in the local restaurants, and we often fill up with fuel at local petrol stations.

If Bath Rugby are not allowed to develop the Rec to suit modern day requirements, and are forced to leave the city, we will no longer do any of the above.

Not for any reason of spite, but we would no longer have a reason to visit. I would imagine there are many thousands of supporters from clubs around the country who feel the same.

Bath is a beautiful city and has arguably the best setting in which to watch rugby in the country. Please don't throw this away.

CHARLES CROWE
Marble Hill Close
Twickenham

SUPPORT FOR RUGBY DOES COME FROM CITY

08 August 2005

May I respond to Mr Drew's question in his letter (Letters, August 4) with a resounding yes? Much of the support for the rugby does come from the city centre and not just from the match attendees. I have said this before, but he does not seem to extend me courtesy of actually listening. I would also like to take issue with his letter in which he says: "But again the implication is that the Rec's purpose is to be selfishly occupied for a predictable 14 afternoons a year rather than for all its citizens. Can Mr Smith justify Royal Victoria Park being used in the same way?".

I cannot see how 10,000-plus people, out of a city with a population of around 80,000, making good use of the Rec, for a fraction of the year, as he himself points out, at a time when few others would find much use for it, could possibly be selfish?

I also fail to see any other way such a number of people could make use of the area.

Great Pulteney Street is 100 yards wide, at the other side is Henrietta Park, around the corner are Sydney Gardens, so it is far from the case that the rugby is taking up all such facilities nearby.

I'd also like to add that I support the times when Royal Victoria Park is indeed used for such cultural events, the music festival, the Three Tenors concert as well as its use for tennis courts, golfing facilities and bowls and so on. Not that I often use any of them.

I would say that I too look forward to the resolution of this argument, though I don't believe he will be in favour of the outcome of which I am confident.

But I cannot say I have ever really grasped Mr Drew's objection to Bath Rugby playing rugby in Bath.

Does he often make his way over from Southdown on a winter's Saturday to use the Rec?

DANIEL WILEY
Harrington Place
Bath

PLEASE PRESERVE HISTORY OF REC
30 August 2005
The history of the Rec, its setting and its place in the community, would be destroyed if Bath Rugby were not allowed to improve the facilities at the ground. Travelling supporters bring a lot of cash into Bath during the season, let alone the Bath Rugby supporters, and moving the ground to the outskirts of the city would mean that they would not have to go into the city centre and would not feel so inclined to spend their time and money there.

I understand that the facilities HAVE to be improved, not just for the supporters of Bath Rugby and the opposition fans, but also for Bath Rugby to remain in the Guinness Premiership.

Ground improvements would mean higher attendances at matches and ultimately more cash being spent in the pubs, bars, restaurants, shops and hotels in Bath city centre.

Heaven forbid Bath Rugby should move to the outskirts, or even, the worst outcome, join the ranks of wandering minstrels we have in the premiership such as Wasps who still call themselves London, but play in High Wycombe.

Where is all their supporters' money being spent? Certainly not in London on match days.

ROB MANNING
Newton Road City
Raunds
I AM an exiled Leicester man and staunch Tigers rugby supporter who benefits by being nearer to your fair city than I was when living within the sounds of Welford Road.

One of the great joys of visiting the Rec, apart from good rugby and hard-fought victories, is the city centre and the aesthetic joy of the ground's position.

I can always persuade the missus to go to 'Bath away', for the whole ambience (and shops) that lurk across the Avon, where there are also hostelries for seeking solace or celebration in abundance, and feasting is easy.

I hear there is pressure to close this finest of grounds for some soulless carbuncle out in the sticks, but think on, my friends, for while this would probably be the ruin of my excursions to your Regency demi-paradise, and that would be tragic, the loss to your city's economy and whatever might replace the Rec and its atmosphere, could be far worse. Please do not go down that road.

ROGER CHALLIS
The Bungalow
Garfield Road
Bishop's Waltham
Hampshire

WHAT WOULD MOVING CLUB DO FOR THE CITY'S ECONOMY?
30 August 2005
I Have been following the correspondence in your columns on the subject of the use of, and plans for, the Rec. I do not live in Bath, but I follow London Irish rugby, and I was coached at Downside by Roger Smerdon, formerly a Bath player.

My daughter is resident in Bath, which I visit frequently.

It seems odd to me that one of this country's finest locations for a rugby stadium (with some of the worst facilities) should be threatened by elements whose legitimacy seems open to question, to the potential detriment of the city as a whole.

If the ground closed for rugby, where would Bath RFC go? The answer would, at best, have to be to the outskirts of Bath, at worst out of Bath.

This would deprive the city centre of the spending power, not only of the current attendance (10,000), but of an enhanced attendance (15,000?). Is this something which Bath's local economy anticipates with unadulterated joy?

It is not as though the city centre suffers from the poor behaviour of rugby supporters or has to foot an expensive policing bill, as might be the case with some other popular sports.

It is not every city in the UK which can boast a sports club of genuine merit, with a comparably illustrious heritage.

I trust that the city fathers will appreciate the jewel that they have, even if it does desperately need development. Otherwise Bath may end up like my club, to which the local council denied planning permission. London Irish now play in Reading, 40 miles from our Sunbury base. Let this be a warning.

ROBIN E CLIVE
High Street
Dorchester on Thames

GREAT SETTING
30 August 2005
I Come to Bath once every year to watch Rugby at the Rec. A group of us arrive early, park out of town then come in by public transport for a meal, a couple of drinks and a good time with our friends from Bath Rugby Club.

The 'wreck' is unfortunately just that. A rugby stadium in the most wonderful setting - the most beautiful I've ever visited, but one that has been allowed to fall behind the rest of the world due to neglect through lack of foresight.

Bath Rugby is an ambassador for your city - force it to move elsewhere and you will lose something that makes your city unique.

MARK COLEMAN
Aldridge,
Walsall

WELL done to Bob Calleja and all at Bath rugby on moving the debate on the Rec forward.

This city needs a venue to be proud of for a rugby team we are proud of, and for other events, and of course this (judging by Bob's comments) will be privately funded, so will cost us, the council tax payers of B &NES, nothing.

I hope people do go to Bob with their thoughts/worries, rather than going directly to the authorities, as he seems to be saying, "there is room for negotiation". Use your imagination for a minute and try to look at what we could have on the rec, a state-of-the-art arena, as opposed to the (and I'm happy to say this) ugly mishmash of buildings currently there.

So, once again, Well done Bob.

MIKE SENIOR
The Paragon
Bath

LET'S hope that the front page, Friday, is not another false dawn with regards to developing the Recreation Ground for rugby.

This absolutely has to happen. I know of at least 10,500 people who are also of the same mind. Bath, not only the rugby side of things, has to develop and move forward. The city will become a museum with museum attitudes to match.

A word of warning to some that do not want development, in 10 or 15 years there will be serious pressure to build housing on the Rec. The rules governing housing are changing, green field sights are no longer the sacred cow, money will talk, big time

MIKE CANHAM
Springfield Close
Corsham

I AM writing to lodge my disappointment at hearing that Bath City Council are thinking of moving Bath Rugby away from the Rec.

This seems such a short-sighted plan as the home games must boost the shopping/eating/drinking in the centre of town.

We always visit Bath every year, as my wife and her friend enjoy shopping there, so we tie it in with the Saints games. Having the ground so close to the shops, catering establishments and sights is unique and should be preserved.

KENNY GRIGGS
Cross Waters Close
Northampton
I hear there is a petition to keep Bath Rugby in Bath. I would just like to add some comments.

As a ( Northampton) Saints fan I try to go to as many away games as possible and one of the best is Bath. It is in my opinion the best setting of all the premiership grounds although I do think the facilities are very poor and badly need updating.

I either come down for the day or sometimes make a weekend of it, so having the club in the city really benefits the city as I will have a snack for lunch, an evening meal, spend a few pounds in the local bars and sometimes stay in a hotel for the night. As an individual I do not add "that much" to the local economy but how many other fans do the same as me?

I can understand why people want to keep the heritage of Bath, but is the rugby team not part of that? If the ground is improved in a sympathetic way will it really have a major negative impact on the city?

I find it amazing that in France having a successful rugby side in the town/city is seen as a very good thing and the local authorities seem to bend over backwards to achieve this whereas in England it is seen as a burden.

ADRIAN JACKMAN
Wolverton, Milton Keynes
I COME with my family to Bath each year to watch Northampton play rugby. I understand that there is a vocal minority in the city that wants the club to move to a new ground away from the present city centre location.

How small minded and blinkered these people must be. When I come, I bring three other people (sometimes more), and spend two nights in the city, spending money in pubs, restaurants and local shops.

If the ground was to be situated out of town, my party would think twice about making a weekend of our trip, and visit there and back in a day.

We come to your city for a weekend break, not just to watch a rugby game in a soulless arena.

DAVID PERCY
Winston Close
Nether Heyford

WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO BEING BACK AT BATH REC
01 September 2005
Bath away is the second most important game of the season for us Bristolians, second to Bath at home and it is a great day out. We start off the day by visiting some of the great local shops then off to the local pubs before heading off to the nearby Rec.

We haven't been able to experience this over the past two years because of our relegation but now we are back in the top flight I'm really looking forward to going back to the old Rec.

I don't think the whole experience would be the same if the ground was moved away from the city centre.

Also I believe the local economy would suffer from a loss of customers who are the visiting fans who go to Bath on match days.

ED RYDER
Greengate
Hermitage

BATH REC LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED
01 September 2005
I Am a former Bath supporter who has moved his allegiances to Northampton Saints. I have spent most of my formative years at the Rec, watching Bath throughout the glory years and also supporting both my brothers who have played for Bath youth throughout their teens.

Once I changed my allegiances to the Saints, I realised what I had been missing.

Northampton and its local council work in partnership for the good of the community.

In doing so, they have not only bcreated one of the best club facilities in the UK but also a terrific atmosphere for supporters young and old.

Bath's rather archaic Rec leaves a great deal to be desired but at least it serves its purpose.

The supporters, however, deserve a lot better than what is being offered to them at the present time. Whether the Rec is to be redeveloped or a move is on the cards is a source of great consternation to many Bath supporters.

I have read over the past months the dismissive arguments of Mr Drew, whose impertinence is somewhat bewildering to say the very least, and the rather stoic defence by the patrons of 'ERE.com'.

While this set the cat among the pigeons, I personally would rather hear the opinions of the local landlords and landladies of the pubs in the centre of Bath as well as those of local sports specialists, restaurateurs and traders.

To my mind, these people have a lot more to lose than many who have voiced their opinions on the Rec.

ROB RICHMOND
Frampton Court
Trowbridge

RUGBY ENTHUSIASTS BRING LOTS OF BUSINESS OF YOUR CITY

31 August 2005
I And about 700 others regularly come to Bath for the rugby. It's only once a year, but multiply the number who come by 11 (minimum). We spend a great deal of money in the city - pubs, restaurants, shops and B &B. If Bath Rugby had to move from the Rec, I would think twice about the trip, and, if I did come, and the location was outside the centre I would spend much less. So would my fellow supporters from my own and other clubs. "You never miss it 'til it's gone".

DAVID LAWRENCE
The Avenue
Cliftonville
Margate
Kent

VISITING RUGBY FANS HELP KEEP BATH'S ECONOMY GOING
02 September 2005
I Have been reading with interest all the letters in the Chronicle on the subject of the redevelopment of the Rec. We do not live in Bath, but last season decided to become season ticket holders as we have been visiting regularly for home games for many years. We also travel to several away games a season (ironically we can walk to Bath's away games at Sarries, rather than make the 250-mile round trip down the M4 to the Rec).

In his recent letter James Trentham states that: "It would benefit. . . our fantastic city to see (Bath Rugby) out of town completely." How? I am not sure that the retailers and pub owners in Bath would agree with him.

Because of our love of Bath Rugby my husband and I come to Bath for at least 14 home games a season. On several of those weekends we stay, putting money into the local B &Bs and restaurants.

Even on the weekends we don't stay over we eat in the city, have a couple of drinks and also do the normal weekend type shopping we would do in Watford had we stayed at home. A lot of away supporters do the same thing.

Many local residents come into the city because of the rugby and spend money. Surely it would be very shortsighted to move the rugby ground out of the city centre and lose all this?

Bath is a tourist city. Like it or not, people are going to come and visit - the wonderful history and heritage you have makes sure of that. Surely it is better to encourage more visitors to come (in the winter, when traditional tourist numbers are down) and contribute to the economy of the fabulous city many of you are lucky enough to call home?

SUSANNE LAWS
Nevill Grove
Watford
I am a Northampton Saints supporter and follow my team to as many away games as possible. One that my family and friends always make a real effort for is Bath.

We often stay over when possible. We always eat drink and shop in your lovely city as do 600/700 fellow Saints. The facilities at the Rec are poor by current standards. The plans awaiting approval seem to give a superb stadium in arguably the best setting in the country. I would not be prepared to spend money at an out-of-town concrete carbuncle. Can the city of Bath afford to turn away substantial revenue from fellow rugby supporters?

BOB STAINSBY
Hanover Drive
Brackley Northants

I STRONGLY feel that Bath Rugby should continue to play in the middle of town. It is a traditional venue and enjoys the best setting of any club rugby ground.

As the town is so attractive, my wife is more than happy to come with me. While I am watching my beloved Harlequins, she is spending my money in all your quality stores. We then enjoy dinner and often stay over in the area.

I doubt she would come if Bath played on some industrial estate on the outskirts. The logistics would be a real pain.

Keep the tradition - and the revenue for the town.

BEV WILLS
Benomley Road
Almondsbury

AS a visiting rugby fan, I wish to urge all concerned to support the expansion and improvement of Bath rugby at the Rec. The facilities desperately need improvement and any move out of the city would certainly mitigate against visiting supporters straying at local hotels and spending money in the city.

P KENNEDY
Longford Avenue
Northampton

AS a visitor to Bath for many years, Bath rugby belongs at the Rec, the council should support something that brings a good name to the city and the name of Bath.

CHRIS ALLIBONE
Station Road
Thurnby
Leicester
As a musician and rugby fan, I find myself getting more and frustrated by Bath's resident moaners. The Rec, despite its shortcomings, is surely a fantastic asset to the city of Bath while being used as the home of Bath Rugby.

It generates extra income to the central shops and restaurants, and, as others have previously written, who wants to go and see rugby played in a purpose-built concrete monstrosity when it can be enjoyed within the beautiful characteristic surroundings of the city centre?

On the music side, I recently performed at the Assembly Rooms to find that a different kind of moaner had complained enough for the venue to install a noise limiter in the venue. This meant that every time our drummer hit the snare drum the power for the band was cut out for nine seconds - resulting in depressing evening for the guests as the sound and lights kept dying out. Why don't these people use a bit of common sense? If you don't want to live with the rugby near your home, or next to a function venue that's been in existence since the 18th century, don't buy a property in the location.

Incidentally, I live in Edward Street which is 200 yards from the Rec.

TIM KING
Edward Street
Bath
Mr John Patrick states that: "There is only one way to find out what are the true views of the owners of the Rec. A referendum is required, with voting limited to residents of Bath already registered as voters." I am a Bath Rugby supporter who lives in Surrey and who regularly visits your wonderful city to watch matches. To me, Bath Rugby is an integral part of the identity of Bath - just as the Roman Spa and the Royal Crescent are - and I have to say that I find it sad to read the petty arguments being deployed by certain minority groups against something that surely helps define the city and contributes in a big way to the local economy.

I'd have thought Bath Rugby, being a leading club, would be something to be proud of among residents of Bath?

Bath Rugby has played at the Rec since the latter part of the 19th century. I think that counts as a long-standing tradition doesn't it?

Something that counts for a lot in Bath I would have thought? So, why should present day voters, many of whom presumably moved into the location having full knowledge (and in full acceptance) that the rugby club was there, be granted a say in getting rid of a long-standing fixture of the city which gives pleasure to a lot of people not to mention the work the club does in the community?

The rugby club does not attract huge crowds, the "stadium" doesn't dominate the city (nor even the Rec), the supporters (of whichever club comes to play there) are well behaved and contribute to the local economy and, as far as I can see, property prices are wholly unaffected by having the club in the centre of the city. Quite the opposite in fact (I wish I could afford to live in Bath).

Mr Patrick goes on to say that: "There are many local amateur football and rugby teams which find difficulty finding enough pitches at weekends . . . I have no doubt that there are also groups who would like the opportunity to run fetes, carnivals, outdoor theatre and other activities in the summer."

This may or may not be the case (I suspect not) but this is, in any case, a spurious argument.

The rugby club has been there for many many years and so by any measure of natural (or actual) law, has first call on the site. I find it incredible that local residents would wish to swap a long-standing city attraction (and successful sporting club) for a few bring and buy sales.

It's ridiculous.

In closing, I urge all right-thinking local residents to ignore the nimbyism being peddled by a few self-interested individuals and instead appreciate the wonderful city (of which Bath Rugby is an integral part) which many of you are fortunate enough to call home. Bath Rugby belongs at the Rec. In my view, the council should show full support for the sympathetic redevelopment that is being proposed.

ROB DICKMAN
Beeches Road
Sutton
Surrey
Mr Patrick's recent letter would still seem to have very little content to suggest there is any reason to upset so many people by forcing Bath Rugby to move. Regarding the "many local amateur football and rugby teams which find difficulty finding enough pitches at weekends", if Bath Rugby was to be moved, it would create space for at most two football pitches. Would he really suggest spoiling the recreation of more than 10,000, every fortnight, so that, potentially, 22 could enjoy theirs?

I'm not even sure that it would get these, the majority of the Rec is currently marked out as lacrosse pitches, about five I think. Surely if there were such demand that it required upsetting 10,000 people, the lacrosse players might be persuaded to let the footballers have some space? It would, however, still seem a drop in the ocean compared to the dozens of pitches already about the town.

"I have no doubt that there are also groups who would like the opportunity to run fetes, carnivals, outdoor theatre and other activities in the summer."

Mr Patrick seems to forget that rugby is not a summer sport.

On the few weeks that it does vaguely intersect with potential festivals it only does so only every other weekend, and then only for a few hours on the Saturday. It also leaves a large enough space for such activities to continue.

Indeed, the only reason they would have to stop during the match is, as we have made clear, our facilities are so poor.

In excess of 10,000 people attend almost all of Bath's home fixtures. Some 30,000 are reported to have visited the cup final last year. I doubt this is the full extent of Bath Rugby's support. Many of these, such as my neighbours, my friends and myself do indeed come from the city centre. To imply the remaining 60,000-plus adults in Bath are in agreement with him is clearly absurd, in terms of both my own personal experience and the correspondence with this paper.

I not only expect that many do not support him, but are, in fact, actually quite proud to have a team with such a successful and long standing background as Bath rugby within the city.

DANIEL WILEY
Harrington Place
Bath
I moved to Bath in the mid 90s for university and immediately fell in love with the city. Apart from the architectural beauty one of the things that really struck me was the vibrancy the city achieves on rugby match days. The whole city buzzes.

I loved the fact that after a match strangers would come up to you and ask the score, that you could stand in a checkout line and have discussions with cashiers on the last match, the next match and the season to come. Since graduation work has forced me to move away, but I come back every other week. Bath is a small city, set apart from others by its looks and style. Nobody wants to see a monstrosity of a soulless stadium built on the Rec which is why it's so pleasing to see the tasteful plans on the bathsport.org website. These would allow regeneration of the riverside and enhance the city itself. I hope that the city will approve these plans and allow Bath Rugby to stay at the Rec.

LAWRENCE AGGLETON
Bromyard Avenue, London
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