Bath
We are going on a Bear Hunt…. Bath v Bristol
By Rokobilly
October 3 2024
We can’t go over them. We can’t go under them. We will struggle to go round them, given our first-choice wingers will all be in the stands. We will have to go through them.And that – with apologies to Michael Rosen - is exactly what I expect JVG’s game plan to be on Saturday afternoon. A big, aggressive pack looking to keep things tight and punch holes through the gain line. Do that enough times and we might just see the backs get a bit of ball.
Bristol by contrast may look to continue their recent impression of Keegan-era Newcastle United – forget the defence and back yourself to score one more than them at the other end.
Pat Lam has made much of his epiphany early last year in a Connacht hotel room when, off the back of another chastening defeat, he scribbled a new attack plan on a sheet of notepaper and, hey presto, the old all-court Bristol style was back and winning matches.
It could just make for a fascinating contrast of styles.
Whatever happens, I certainly don’t expect a repeat of the last derby at Ashton Gate in January when 101 points were scored. Surely Bath won’t get dragged into that again. With far fewer important absentees than that day, and a much more ingrained winning habit, common sense should prevail. It’s our ground and we will play our way. Ben Spencer will be a key man to control the tempo and the territory.
A third win of the season for Bath would represent a terrific start – and one better than last year when having won two games we stumbled at home to Leicester in filthy conditions at The Rec. The challenges may come in a growing injury list – especially in the back 3.
Will Muir is out for around six weeks having twisted a knee at Welford Road and Big Joe is going through the return to play protocols following a failed HIA.
With Regan Grace also in the physio’s room and the likes of Austin Emens and Tyler Offiah likely to be judged a little green for a derby day debut, it looks like we will field a make-do-and-mend three-quarter line.
Will Butt has a made a cast iron case to remain at 12 (“How can I drop him? Says JVG) but may end up on the wing with Cam Redpath fit again.
Alternatively, we might see Sam Harris or Orlando Bailey at full-back with TDG playing wide, perhaps with Ruaridh McConnochie on the opposite wing. It is an area Bristol will look to exploit with Malins, Naulago and Ibitoye all looking sharp in attack this season.
In the forwards, we hope Guy Pepper has shrugged off a knock from the Leicester game, but if not, a certain Sam Underhill is available for selection. The back row strength is getting absurd.
We may also see Billy Sella again after an impressive cameo last Sunday.
One of the highlights of the Round Two matches was watching young Gloucester tighthead Afo Fasogbon getting the better of Ellis Genge in the scrum and then waving him off the pitch.
Sela was a team-mate of Fasogbon in this year’s England u20 team, starting ahead of him until he picked up a tournament ending injury.
It’s a big chance for Billy to make his name. If he does, I look forward to 14,000 Bath fans waving Mr Genge off the pitch.
That Gloucester game was a chastening one for Bristol. They let Glaws build a lead, came roaring back then blew it at the death. Having ended last season as arguably the league’s form team and winning at Falcons first up this term, they will be very keen to get back to winning ways.
I expect to see Randall sniping and McGinty looking to stretch Bath with cross-kicks and coast to coast plays. Lapses in concentration could be costly. The flip side of that coin is the generosity Bristol frequently show in defence – take our chances and we should come out on top.
A prediction? Bath by 9.
A possible XV? Harris; De Glanville; Lawrence; Butt; Mcconnochie; Russell; Spencer; Obano; Annett; Stuart; Roux; Ewels; Hill; Underhill; Coetzee
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StumbleuponWe are going on a Bear Hunt…. Bath v Bristol. TEAM UP!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 03/10/2024 23:40
03/10/2024 23:40
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Thanks rokobilly- great stuff.
I would go:
Harris, tdg, lawrence, butt, rmc, russell, spencer, beno, dunn, stuart, roux, ewels, hill, pepper, barbeary
Bench: tdt, annett, sela, jdp, reid, coetzee, TCS, bailey
Potentially bring in the likes of underhill and cam at castle grim with another full week of training under the belt and chomping at the bit!
I would go:
Harris, tdg, lawrence, butt, rmc, russell, spencer, beno, dunn, stuart, roux, ewels, hill, pepper, barbeary
Bench: tdt, annett, sela, jdp, reid, coetzee, TCS, bailey
Potentially bring in the likes of underhill and cam at castle grim with another full week of training under the belt and chomping at the bit!
I would personally go with the below but it’s tough to predict this one. Really powerful bench to see us home here
Obano
Annett
Stuart
Roux
Ewels
Hill
Pepper
Coetzee
Spencer
Russell
TdG
Redpath
Lawrence
Butt
Harris
Dunn
van Wyk
TdT
JdP
Underhill
Barbeary
TCS
Bailey
Obano
Annett
Stuart
Roux
Ewels
Hill
Pepper
Coetzee
Spencer
Russell
TdG
Redpath
Lawrence
Butt
Harris
Dunn
van Wyk
TdT
JdP
Underhill
Barbeary
TCS
Bailey
Good stuff Roko, thank you.
I think it will be a battle of the scrum halves, both with a point to prove - will Borthwick be in the stands? The Bris game is always feisty and I think Spencer's cool head and control, a physical back row shutting Randall and McGinty down and stopping the ball getting out to the wingers, our physical centre pairing and odd moments of Fin magic can win the day, at least on paper. By 9-ish sounds reasonable.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
I think it will be a battle of the scrum halves, both with a point to prove - will Borthwick be in the stands? The Bris game is always feisty and I think Spencer's cool head and control, a physical back row shutting Randall and McGinty down and stopping the ball getting out to the wingers, our physical centre pairing and odd moments of Fin magic can win the day, at least on paper. By 9-ish sounds reasonable.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Bristol being without Thacker and Naulago takes two big threats out of their attack. The latter missing out also gives them a better chance of keeping 15 men on the park so swings and roundabout I suppose.
Without Naulago I imagine it’s Rich Lane on that wing which makes it a much better match up forRMC now I come to think of it.
Without Naulago I imagine it’s Rich Lane on that wing which makes it a much better match up forRMC now I come to think of it.
Lovely preview.
Sounds like Bristol are going to be without Naulago and Thacker, but could have Grondona in the squad.
[www.bristolbearsrugby.com]
So with that in mind, here's my guess as to the 2 lineups with names in bold predicted to edge the head to heads:
1. Obano/Genge
2. Dunn/Ogre
3. Stuart/Lahiff
4. Ewels/Dun
5. JdP/Batley
6. Hill/Luatua
7. Underhill/Heenan
8. Coetzee/Harding
9. Spencer/Randall
10. Russell/MacGinty
11. McConnochie/Ibitoye
12. Butt/BJvR
13. Lawrence/Williams
14. TdG/Lane
15. Harris/Malins
16. Annett/Capon
17. FvW/Woolmore
18. TdT/Kloska
19. Maloney/Caulfield
20. Reid/Grondona
21. Carr-Smith/Marmion
22. Bailey/Jenkins
23. Barbeary/Bailey
With our depleted stocks on the wings I'd say Bristol may shade the backline battle, but I think our pack matches up very strongly against theirs (both starting and replacements), so I just hope we don't get drawn into playing jouez jouez rugby and keep things controlled and set piece orientated.
Sounds like Bristol are going to be without Naulago and Thacker, but could have Grondona in the squad.
[www.bristolbearsrugby.com]
So with that in mind, here's my guess as to the 2 lineups with names in bold predicted to edge the head to heads:
1. Obano/Genge
2. Dunn/Ogre
3. Stuart/Lahiff
4. Ewels/Dun
5. JdP/Batley
6. Hill/Luatua
7. Underhill/Heenan
8. Coetzee/Harding
9. Spencer/Randall
10. Russell/MacGinty
11. McConnochie/Ibitoye
12. Butt/BJvR
13. Lawrence/Williams
14. TdG/Lane
15. Harris/Malins
16. Annett/Capon
17. FvW/Woolmore
18. TdT/Kloska
19. Maloney/Caulfield
20. Reid/Grondona
21. Carr-Smith/Marmion
22. Bailey/Jenkins
23. Barbeary/Bailey
With our depleted stocks on the wings I'd say Bristol may shade the backline battle, but I think our pack matches up very strongly against theirs (both starting and replacements), so I just hope we don't get drawn into playing jouez jouez rugby and keep things controlled and set piece orientated.
Great write up. Thanks, Roko.
Is it true JvG has never picked the same XXIII (or XV?) from one week to the next? The Tinkerman II? Given the attrition rate of rugby and the quality of our squad, it makes sense. I think JvG tells each player, prior to each block of games, which they'll be involved in, so all individual/team prep is structured accordingly. Hence, it's impossible to predict the team. Heraclitus was right: the only certainty is change.
I'd go:
Obano, Annett, Stuart, JDP, Ewels, Hill, Pepper, Reid, Spen, Russ, McCon, Butt, Lawrence, TdG, Harris
Dunn, VV, TdT, Maloney, Underhill, TCS, Bailey, Coetzee
Of our back row stocks, Barbeary feels like the one who has been quietest in the 2 x games. Could mean he will deliver this time around, but I think the likes of Reid, Pepper, Hill and Coetzee have all shown form, and are deserving of their spots. Coetzee from the bench has been huge. Roux has also had a massive couple of games- hence he can put his feet up.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Is it true JvG has never picked the same XXIII (or XV?) from one week to the next? The Tinkerman II? Given the attrition rate of rugby and the quality of our squad, it makes sense. I think JvG tells each player, prior to each block of games, which they'll be involved in, so all individual/team prep is structured accordingly. Hence, it's impossible to predict the team. Heraclitus was right: the only certainty is change.
I'd go:
Obano, Annett, Stuart, JDP, Ewels, Hill, Pepper, Reid, Spen, Russ, McCon, Butt, Lawrence, TdG, Harris
Dunn, VV, TdT, Maloney, Underhill, TCS, Bailey, Coetzee
Of our back row stocks, Barbeary feels like the one who has been quietest in the 2 x games. Could mean he will deliver this time around, but I think the likes of Reid, Pepper, Hill and Coetzee have all shown form, and are deserving of their spots. Coetzee from the bench has been huge. Roux has also had a massive couple of games- hence he can put his feet up.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
...you don't think Finn Russell is better than AJ MacGinty? I like MacGinty, but... come on.
It's rarely a game is decided by individual match ups in my view. It's more about how team units fare
I would hope our front 5 and back row would have the edge and also our 9/10 have more control on the game
Having said that Briz do have some individuals that can open up the game from unlikely positions
And I just hope Finn packs his kicking boots this week
One of those games where pretty much any result wouldn't be a surprise
I would hope our front 5 and back row would have the edge and also our 9/10 have more control on the game
Having said that Briz do have some individuals that can open up the game from unlikely positions
And I just hope Finn packs his kicking boots this week
One of those games where pretty much any result wouldn't be a surprise
Quote:hasta
...you don't think Finn Russell is better than AJ MacGinty? I like MacGinty, but... come on.
Not on last week's form
(I'm still a Fin Fan though)
Team Up
Bath Rugby XV: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Niall Annett, 3 Thomas du Toit, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Guy Pepper, 8 Miles Reid, 9 Ben Spencer (100) ©, 10 Finn Russell, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 12 Will Butt, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 14 Tom de Glanville, 15 Sam Harris
Replacements: 16 Tom Dunn, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Ross Molony, 20 Sam Underhill, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Cameron Redpath, 23 Jaco Coetzee
PG
Bath Rugby XV: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Niall Annett, 3 Thomas du Toit, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Guy Pepper, 8 Miles Reid, 9 Ben Spencer (100) ©, 10 Finn Russell, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 12 Will Butt, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 14 Tom de Glanville, 15 Sam Harris
Replacements: 16 Tom Dunn, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Ross Molony, 20 Sam Underhill, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Cameron Redpath, 23 Jaco Coetzee
PG
Bristol team:
15. Max Malins (35 apps), 14. Gabriel Ibitoye (43 apps), 13. Benhard Janse van Rensburg (27 apps), 12. James Williams (44 apps), 11. Rich Lane (37 apps), 10. AJ MacGinty (39 apps), 9. Harry Randall (128 apps); 1. Ellis Genge (46 apps), 2. Gabriel Oghre (19 apps), 3. Max Lahiff (89 apps), 4. James Dun (36 apps), 5. Joe Batley (65 apps), 6. Steven Luatua (132 apps), 7. Santiago Grondona (debut), 8. Fitz Harding (c) (74 apps).
System players: 16. Will Capon (88 apps), 17. Jake Woolmore (152 apps), 18. George Kloska (44 apps), 19. Joe Owen (14 apps), 20. Benjamin Grondona (3 apps), 21. Kieran Marmion (26 apps), 22. Joe Jenkins (13 apps), 23. Jack Bates (36 apps).
Like the look of our squad, as in the previous rounds there's real impact on the Bath bench, which should hopefully give some serious power going into the final 20.
15. Max Malins (35 apps), 14. Gabriel Ibitoye (43 apps), 13. Benhard Janse van Rensburg (27 apps), 12. James Williams (44 apps), 11. Rich Lane (37 apps), 10. AJ MacGinty (39 apps), 9. Harry Randall (128 apps); 1. Ellis Genge (46 apps), 2. Gabriel Oghre (19 apps), 3. Max Lahiff (89 apps), 4. James Dun (36 apps), 5. Joe Batley (65 apps), 6. Steven Luatua (132 apps), 7. Santiago Grondona (debut), 8. Fitz Harding (c) (74 apps).
System players: 16. Will Capon (88 apps), 17. Jake Woolmore (152 apps), 18. George Kloska (44 apps), 19. Joe Owen (14 apps), 20. Benjamin Grondona (3 apps), 21. Kieran Marmion (26 apps), 22. Joe Jenkins (13 apps), 23. Jack Bates (36 apps).
Like the look of our squad, as in the previous rounds there's real impact on the Bath bench, which should hopefully give some serious power going into the final 20.
Quote:P G Tips
Team Up
Bath Rugby XV: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Niall Annett, 3 Thomas du Toit, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Charlie Ewels, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Guy Pepper, 8 Miles Reid, 9 Ben Spencer (100) ©, 10 Finn Russell, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 12 Will Butt, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 14 Tom de Glanville, 15 Sam Harris
Replacements: 16 Tom Dunn, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Ross Molony, 20 Sam Underhill, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Cameron Redpath, 23 Jaco Coetzee
PG
Oooffg that is a heavy weight side. And then Coetzee and Underhill coming off the bench!
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Where is JDP ? 
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
That’s some team! I’m pleased that JvG has resisted the temptation to switch Will Butt to the wing. He and Ollie Lawrence are arguably the most brutally effective direct running partnership in the Prem at the moment. Sam Harris at 15 is a big vote of confidence. He’s incredibly talented but I hope we don’t miss Matt Gallagher’s experience (and siege gun boot!) in this game. With TdT back we should do well up front. If we can stifle their creative players it should be a good afternoon at the Rec.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Where is JDP ?
I wonder whether his absence from any of the matchday squads gives a bit of credence to the rumour that he's going back to SA.
Could be putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, but given JvG's track record for rotation, and the fact Roux (our other tighthead lock) has started every game it does seem a bit odd that he keeps getting left out.
Sir..........Christophe Ridley..........No Bath cards please ! 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Deleted
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:04:15:01:43 by Old Bath Tub.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:04:15:01:43 by Old Bath Tub.
Great to see TdT back, Butt kept at 12 and Harris get a shot - quietly confident in this team. I had thought of suggesting Reid at 8 for this, because of Barbeary's lack of form, but thought I'd get shouted down. Well-deserved and I'm sure he'll bring an extra something as it's a derby.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Quote:boozeboozeboozeQuote:hasta
...you don't think Finn Russell is better than AJ MacGinty? I like MacGinty, but... come on.
Not on last week's form
(I'm still a Fin Fan though)
That's harsh. Very harsh
A couple of missed touch kicks and I know one was a 7 pointer plus wayward off the tee in far from easy conditions I accept but Finn's handling, distribution and game control was quality
Quote:gaz59Quote:boozeboozeboozeQuote:hasta
...you don't think Finn Russell is better than AJ MacGinty? I like MacGinty, but... come on.
Not on last week's form
(I'm still a Fin Fan though)
That's harsh. Very harsh
A couple of missed touch kicks and I know one was a 7 pointer plus wayward off the tee in far from easy conditions I accept but Finn's handling, distribution and game control was quality
Very harsh? All I've said is they are a fairly even match up, and MacGinty has been in good form in the first 2 rounds, so it's not the knock on Russell that you're making out.
Slightly bias but here goes. I think that Brizzle have as much chance of winning the match as a one legged man has in an @#$%& kicking contest . I stand to be corrected.
Quote:gaz59
Briz are gonna need a decent points buffer for when our bench comes on
Hope the team doesn’t share the complacency that’s evident on this board. Briz are a very good team capable of winning at the Rec, just hope they leave their football fans at home.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:gaz59
Briz are gonna need a decent points buffer for when our bench comes on
Hope the team doesn’t share the complacency that’s evident on this board. Briz are a very good team capable of winning at the Rec, just hope they leave their football fans at home.
+1
That's a strong Bristol team and.if there's.one thing Bristol can do, it's score points in bunches (usually while conceding them too).
Quote:Hugh Jarse
Slightly bias but here goes. I think that Brizzle have as much chance of winning the match as a one legged man has in an @#$%& kicking contest . I stand to be corrected.
I’m with Hugh… Let’s bury them!
I could easily imagine Bristol edging this. Bath are far from being invincible & they have an ability to score a lot of tries. Also we have neither first choice wingers playing which will disrupt our attack. There’s a whole lot of crazy over confidence about which might just be bravado.
Quote:The BearQuote:OutsideBathQuote:gaz59
Briz are gonna need a decent points buffer for when our bench comes on
Hope the team doesn’t share the complacency that’s evident on this board. Briz are a very good team capable of winning at the Rec, just hope they leave their football fans at home.
+1
That's a strong Bristol team and.if there's.one thing Bristol can do, it's score points in bunches (usually while conceding them too).
I'm not complacent, far from it. I'm def in the camp of respecting the quality and inventiveness of the Briz attack
It was just an objective assessment that our bench has the power to row in a reasonable points deficit
It's a derby -with all that implies for an upset, but there's nothing wrong with the view that we are fielding a strong team and particularly strong bench.
PG
PG
Blimey I'm not at all confident of a Bath win.
Sitting here in rainy Greece (shurely shome mishtke - Ed), it does not at all feel obvious. I would be delighted with a one point win and take four points.
Sitting here in rainy Greece (shurely shome mishtke - Ed), it does not at all feel obvious. I would be delighted with a one point win and take four points.
Silly to go for a risky trick throw early on. Never mind.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Some poor first up tackles from us!
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Not seeing any separation there, control isn't relevant
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
RAEBURN SHIELD
Ludicrous decision from the TMo to disallow Te Hill's try. No separation, downward pressure, try.
And then Bristol change the binds and collapse the maul and get the scrum.
And then Bristol change the binds and collapse the maul and get the scrum.
Quote:Which Tyler
Not seeing any separation there, control isn't relevant
Yeah when commentators are befuddled it says something
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Suspicion of a forward pass for their try, our try seemingly should have stood and then a slightly dodgy call when we're driving at their line.
Happily, Sam Harris exists.
Happily, Sam Harris exists.
Dear Everyone
Please post all you can!!
As a technophobe relying on BBC updates....
Please post all you can!!
As a technophobe relying on BBC updates....
Quote:hasta
Can't wait for the wider rugby world to get to see Sam Harris.
😁😁😁😁😁
It of a scrappy passage for both sides
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Bristol score again far too easily- first up tackles again just not good enough
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
And I see a classy Bristol fan… (eye roll)
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Our intensity and precision not quite there atm
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Take it we’re not pinging diving over the top
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Can anyone explain what in earth we are doing at line out time
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Another score yet again due to dull initial play by us from the earlier line out.
Really need to get a grip and stop giving them easy ball
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Really need to get a grip and stop giving them easy ball
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
We're so sloppy.
Bristol 3 entries to our 22, 3 tries.
We've had loads and just one.
Bristol 3 entries to our 22, 3 tries.
We've had loads and just one.
We need our coaches to do whatever it was that Saints' did yesterday at half time.
One of the worst 30 minutes (Harris try aside) in years. Such a painful watch. Even more painful that it’s Bristol.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Awful display- trying to think when we were last do sloppy
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Spencer reading the riot act
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Another dozy no pressure penalty
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
He’s far from the only one- but Hill has had a shocker. So unlike him.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Another Bristol try probably save us a yellow car.
Bristol BP before HT.
So, so poor from Bath
Bristol BP before HT.
So, so poor from Bath
Really really shoddy half from us, completely unacceptable
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
This is pretty dreadful stuff. If we were remotely competitive you could point out that Bristol have had the better of a couple of calls but we look miles off it today
Trying to find any kind of silver lining here, it's a wake up call. We appear to have gotten a little complacent. If it's limited to one half of rugby and shaken out of us, we can live with it.
Hands so incredibly obviously on the floor and Ridley's looking directly at it. I mean...
FGS!!!!! Another opportunity blown by sloppy play
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:gaz59
Briz are gonna need a decent points buffer for when our bench comes on
Well, they’ve got it.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:JK7
Hands so incredibly obviously on the floor and Ridley's looking directly at it. I mean...
He’s been lax on that all game- but we need to resource the breakdown.
Our lineout isn’t functioning fully
We are missing first up tackles
Pretty poor in most facets frankly.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Fair play to Bears - however I am at a loss with Ridley and his decisions. Hill try no disconnect ball did not go forward - Try but no? Offside at rucks unbelievable again Bears players out their hands in the air and Ridley says Ok. Du Toit neck rolled nothing .
JVG needs work his magic.
JVG needs work his magic.
Quote:Ali1969
Fair play to Bears - however I am at a loss with Ridley and his decisions. Hill try no disconnect ball did not go forward - Try but no? Offside at rucks unbelievable again Bears players out their hands in the air and Ridley says Ok. Du Toit neck rolled nothing .
JVG needs work his magic.
Yep he’s been poor with caveat that we don’t need his input and are proving quite capable of formenting our own downfall
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Agree - Butt having a poor game missing far too many tackles - I don’t know why but Bears certainly have our number - we just cannot seem to cope with them.
Most disappointing aspect of that first half is that Bears appear hungrier than us and that is inexcusable.
Most disappointing aspect of that first half is that Bears appear hungrier than us and that is inexcusable.
We've been dreadful, but yet again a number of key reffing decisions in a Bath Bristol game go Bristol's way. Ted's non- try, the penalty at the end and a couple of others today.
Still Bristol have been so much sharper they deserve their lead.
Still Bristol have been so much sharper they deserve their lead.
So we’re just going to tackle as poorly as we did first half
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
We are…well a word I can’t use on here
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Er got to be warning Bristol by now surely
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
And 2 ore in the drive for the line. That has to be yellow and possibly penalty try.
Need to make this sub period count
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
*$@t!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:05:16:24:26 by Mike the Taxi.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:05:16:24:26 by Mike the Taxi.
TMO determined to prevent Bath scoring. Capon clearly off his feet causing knock on.
Dreadful from TMO
Dreadful from TMO
Seriously????? Definitely looks like he keeps hold of the ball. What the hell
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Not making excuses for him but agree that Ted was not himself in that 1st half. Wonder if the latest England knock back got to him?
You'd hope it would make him up his game, if anything, but it must be confusing at least.
You'd hope it would make him up his game, if anything, but it must be confusing at least.
This is a farce. Officials somply not up to it.
Scrum was given to Bristol and they win a penalty to clear their lines.
Scrum was given to Bristol and they win a penalty to clear their lines.
The conversion had been kicked!
Weve been rubbish but it’s been compounded with some massive calls going against us. Has a feeling of not being our day.
Unlock the bench asap.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Weve been rubbish but it’s been compounded with some massive calls going against us. Has a feeling of not being our day.
Unlock the bench asap.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Okay I don’t normally like to pin blame on officials but this is starting to get ridiculous
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Echo the above that Bristol have been the better team but Ridley and his mates are not up to standard here.
Quite something to give that knock on when there’s a close up of a Bristol player on his hands and knees in the ruck as part of the replay
Really shooting our selves in the foot after giving ourselves a chance
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Given ourselves too much to do
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
So so many unforced errors
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Sorry but the officiating this half has been dreadful and all in Bristol's favour. They are allowed to get away with so much at and around the ruck, killing our quick ball..
Referring not up to scratch but basically we have only played for about 30 minutes of the 80 which won’t win against any side…
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Coetzee again great off the bench. Not much else to be happy about.
Well done Bristol, better in every area.
Well done Bristol, better in every area.
Very very poor.
First take is that Coetzee is awesome and gives us so much off the bench.
Annett is not a starter.
Need a really hard look at our prep for this match, a distinct lack of precision and physicality right from the start
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
First take is that Coetzee is awesome and gives us so much off the bench.
Annett is not a starter.
Need a really hard look at our prep for this match, a distinct lack of precision and physicality right from the start
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Ungracious to look at the impact of the ref today but I am left bitterly disappointed. Didn't get any rub of the green today.
Horrible. Haven’t felt like this in about 2 years. Beautiful day, great team sheet, and all went south from minute 1.
Fair play to Bristol, whose defence was extra special, but we really didn’t help ourselves. Such a messy performance, and it felt like we were anything but JvG’s “hard to beat”.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Fair play to Bristol, whose defence was extra special, but we really didn’t help ourselves. Such a messy performance, and it felt like we were anything but JvG’s “hard to beat”.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Not sure what to say but well done Bristol, their attack was super clinical and they defended very hard.
We were sloppy and made too many errors, particularly in the first 45 minutes.
However, I firmly believe that we would have won that had the officiating been 'correct'. The TMO had an absolute mare and really, really needs to be talked through some of the laws.
Ridley allowed Bristol to dive off their feet coming around the side, summed up perfectly by Capon in the ruck before Pepper's non-try.
And what the heck happened when Spencer had the ball knocked 25m out of his hands?
Why is it that Bristol always get the rub of the grren in this fixture? Every single time the important 35-65s go their way.
We were sloppy and made too many errors, particularly in the first 45 minutes.
However, I firmly believe that we would have won that had the officiating been 'correct'. The TMO had an absolute mare and really, really needs to be talked through some of the laws.
Ridley allowed Bristol to dive off their feet coming around the side, summed up perfectly by Capon in the ruck before Pepper's non-try.
And what the heck happened when Spencer had the ball knocked 25m out of his hands?
Why is it that Bristol always get the rub of the grren in this fixture? Every single time the important 35-65s go their way.
Quote:Gaughers
Ungracious to look at the impact of the ref today but I am left bitterly disappointed. Didn't get any rub of the green today.
At the bare minimum he has cost us another point.
I appreciate JVG doesn’t moan about refs publicly but you would hope he pulls no punches in private
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
I should also say that given our errors, we probably didn't deserve to win, even though I think we would have but for the TMO. Even with Ridley's calls.
Quote:KingoftheHill
Definitely the refs fault boys....keep believing that
No, we made too many mistakes, but if you can really understand the reasons for ruling out 3 Bath tries...... and that not making a difference to the way the game would have then unfolded.
Firstly and most importantly well played Bears you deserved the victory.
I cannot though ignore the absolute atrocious and disgraceful officiating, I was under the impression you cannot kick the ball out of the scrum half’s hands yet Bears did it on numerous occasions often in offside positions. Three tries disallowed yet all three clearly legal - not always Ridley’s fault TMO was equally a disgrace.
Spencer did himself no favours today - Randall outshone him. We really did not adapt to Bears play and they fully deserved their victory.
Officiating has to be better though - Ridley is much better than that - he looked completely out of his depth today - the sheer amount he let go was beyond incompetence.
I cannot though ignore the absolute atrocious and disgraceful officiating, I was under the impression you cannot kick the ball out of the scrum half’s hands yet Bears did it on numerous occasions often in offside positions. Three tries disallowed yet all three clearly legal - not always Ridley’s fault TMO was equally a disgrace.
Spencer did himself no favours today - Randall outshone him. We really did not adapt to Bears play and they fully deserved their victory.
Officiating has to be better though - Ridley is much better than that - he looked completely out of his depth today - the sheer amount he let go was beyond incompetence.
Quote:KingoftheHill
Definitely the refs fault boys....keep believing that
Definitely a minority view on this board that he cost us the win, but thanks for your gracious comment.
Stay classy
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
If you are going on a bear hunt, you will need a bigger gun boys.
Good luck for the rest of the season. Except in Cardiff obviously.
Good luck for the rest of the season. Except in Cardiff obviously.
Quote:Ali1969
Firstly and most importantly well played Bears you deserved the victory.
I cannot though ignore the absolute atrocious and disgraceful officiating, I was under the impression you cannot kick the ball out of the scrum half’s hands yet Bears did it on numerous occasions often in offside positions. Three tries disallowed yet all three clearly legal - not always Ridley’s fault TMO was equally a disgrace.
Spencer did himself no favours today - Randall outshone him. We really did not adapt to Bears play and they fully deserved their victory.
Officiating has to be better though - Ridley is much better than that - he looked completely out of his depth today - the sheer amount he let go was beyond incompetence.
Agree with most of this, only caveat being that scrum halves can only look good with a steady supply of clean quick ball, Spencer had to go digging and fighting for the ball far too often.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Agree re the speed and ‘cleanliness’ of their ball versus ours and a large part of that was the performances of their back row.
Hill, Pepper, Reid were beat hands down by their opposite numbers. Coetzee made an impact but Underhill needs to be smarter than the decision he made at such a critical point in the game. Really strange performances from our guys. Not ‘on it’ in any way. A good day to be Bayliss and Barbeary.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Hill, Pepper, Reid were beat hands down by their opposite numbers. Coetzee made an impact but Underhill needs to be smarter than the decision he made at such a critical point in the game. Really strange performances from our guys. Not ‘on it’ in any way. A good day to be Bayliss and Barbeary.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:Gaughers
Ungracious to look at the impact of the ref today but I am left bitterly disappointed. Didn't get any rub of the green today.
At the bare minimum he has cost us another point.
I appreciate JVG doesn’t moan about refs publicly but you would hope he pulls no punches in private
We made too many mistakes but we were also robbed of momentum from numerous dubious decisions. Either way, Bath remain able to create a lot of chances, similar to against tigers. However, our conversion of those chances needs to improve. Some of that is on us (like against Tigers) most of it today was on the officials.
The main positive is how we scrapped to a try BP despite the world being against us today. Our ability to take points from every game we've played is how we got to into the Top 4 last season ,that's something we can take from the game.
Quote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:KingoftheHill
Definitely the refs fault boys....keep believing that
Definitely a minority view on this board that he cost us the win, but thanks for your gracious comment.
Stay classy
The irony of the last line.
Interesting to me. I said to may mates that Bath should win at a canter, but if they lose, watch the inevitable "ref was dire" chat, just like the Welsh.
Chappy up there talks about being "classy" but the word seems lost on him.
With your squad, regardless of a couple of injuries, you should be beating Bristol at home. The team failed. Deal with it and move on. Ridley wasn't great either way, so said a Glos supporter I was sat with.
Chappy up there talks about being "classy" but the word seems lost on him.
With your squad, regardless of a couple of injuries, you should be beating Bristol at home. The team failed. Deal with it and move on. Ridley wasn't great either way, so said a Glos supporter I was sat with.
Quote:T JQuote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:KingoftheHill
Definitely the refs fault boys....keep believing that
Definitely a minority view on this board that he cost us the win, but thanks for your gracious comment.
Stay classy
The irony of the last line.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:05:18:04:28 by Toast and Marmite.
Quote:Ali1969
Agree - Butt having a poor game missing far too many tackles - I don’t know why but Bears certainly have our number - we just cannot seem to cope with them.
Most disappointing aspect of that first half is that Bears appear hungrier than us and that is inexcusable.
And their knoob head fans. Seriously Bath, this is the team you choose your worst performance of the season.
Not Newcastle or Sale?
J
Quote:ChippenhamRomanQuote:Ali1969
Agree - Butt having a poor game missing far too many tackles - I don’t know why but Bears certainly have our number - we just cannot seem to cope with them.
Most disappointing aspect of that first half is that Bears appear hungrier than us and that is inexcusable.
And their knoob head fans. Seriously Bath, this is the team you choose your worst performance of the season.
Not Newcastle or Sale?
J
Not all of them mate, posters like Memnoch always welcome
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:ChippenhamRomanQuote:Ali1969
Agree - Butt having a poor game missing far too many tackles - I don’t know why but Bears certainly have our number - we just cannot seem to cope with them.
Most disappointing aspect of that first half is that Bears appear hungrier than us and that is inexcusable.
And their knoob head fans. Seriously Bath, this is the team you choose your worst performance of the season.
Not Newcastle or Sale?
J
Not all of them mate, posters like Memnoch always welcome
Cheers T and M
Quote:Very good!memnoch
If you are going on a bear hunt, you will need a bigger gun boys.
I’ve not watched this back, but in the ground it looked like Bristol turned up with more pace and ambition to play. The number of penalties Bath conceded in the first half halted any momentum they might have gained, then in the second half Bristols conceding penalties seem to do the same to Baths momentum.
It certainly looked like the better team on the day won.
He was no better or worse than than most of the team but why was Reid starting at 8 do we think? As far as I know Barbeary is fit (?) and Coetzee obviously was. Rotation's important but if those two are available I'd always start one of them. Love Reid and as a 3rd choice when needed, he or Bayliss at 8 are good options.
One of the features of the not so distant dark days was the lack of a genuine 8 and I don't think it helped us today. Saying that, it wouldn't have saved us from underperformance pretty much everywhere else.
One of the features of the not so distant dark days was the lack of a genuine 8 and I don't think it helped us today. Saying that, it wouldn't have saved us from underperformance pretty much everywhere else.
Quote:Any updates Hughie??Hugh Jarse
Slightly bias but here goes. I think that Brizzle have as much chance of winning the match as a one legged man has in an @#$%& kicking contest . I stand to be corrected.
Quote:Sit_Down
Interesting to me. I said to may mates that Bath should win at a canter, but if they lose, watch the inevitable "ref was dire" chat, just like the Welsh.
Chappy up there talks about being "classy" but the word seems lost on him.
With your squad, regardless of a couple of injuries, you should be beating Bristol at home. The team failed. Deal with it and move on. Ridley wasn't great either way, so said a Glos supporter I was sat with.
If anyone is suggesting the ref cost us today or was the main factor in the result they’re pretty delusional but that certainly isn’t the consensus as far as I can see. Maybe one or two but hardly representative.
First and foremost the team were poor and didn’t deserve to win. The officials also didn’t have a great game and more went against Bath in those calls than in favour. Two things can be true at once.
Risky to knock the ‘classy’ comments of others one sentence after dismissing and lumping together the rugby views of a whole nation but just to be clear that’s entirely my own opinion and not necessarily one of all Bath fans
So, back from the game and time to reflect. First, Bristol were the better team and deserved to win. They looked dangerous every time they attacked and our scramble defense was too often tested as first up tackles were missed. More worryingly, first half we didn't seem at the races... our aggression was missing, and the lack of precision was as poor as I've seen at home last few seasons.
Fair play to the (few) Bristol fans near me, they enjoyed themselves but all respectful (the comment above about needing a bigger gun made me smile
Ref obviously had a poor game, but at 67mins, 8 points ish (?) behind and momentum with us, I had us favourites. Then Underhill was yellow carded （didn't see what for） and chance gone
Question is how will we react next week...
Fair play to the (few) Bristol fans near me, they enjoyed themselves but all respectful (the comment above about needing a bigger gun made me smile
Ref obviously had a poor game, but at 67mins, 8 points ish (?) behind and momentum with us, I had us favourites. Then Underhill was yellow carded （didn't see what for） and chance gone
Question is how will we react next week...
Definitely the refs fault, nothing to do with the scintillating, attacking, world-class rugby Bristol are playing... Many moons ago Josh Lewsey predicted that Bristol were a sleeping giant of rugby... Maybe the prophecy is coming to pass.
Quote:BeatsWorking
Fair play to the (few) Bristol fans neThen Underhill was yellow carded （didn't see what for） and chance gone
Question is how will we react next week...
Underhill carded for cynically killing the ball at a breakdown just outside the 22 with Randall looking for quick ball and a clear two-man overlap to one side.
Quote:gaz59Quote:The BearQuote:OutsideBathQuote:gaz59
Briz are gonna need a decent points buffer for when our bench comes on
Hope the team doesn’t share the complacency that’s evident on this board. Briz are a very good team capable of winning at the Rec, just hope they leave their football fans at home.
+1
That's a strong Bristol team and.if there's.one thing Bristol can do, it's score points in bunches (usually while conceding them too).
I'm not complacent, far from it. I'm def in the camp of respecting the quality and inventiveness of the Briz attack
It was just an objective assessment that our bench has the power to row in a reasonable points deficit
Well it turns out Bath were complacent, Bristol dominated every aspect of the game and were deserving winners and frankly they wanted it more than Bath.
One word sums up Bath today, lacklustre.
Didn’t affect the result, but Ridley is an utterly inept official.
Lets look for some positives... I don't think there were any new injuries (Beno carried on?), Sam Harris try was fantastic and Coetzee had a great game when he came on.
But I sort of got the feeling we were starting to believe our own hype, and that we can stroll into the Top four without being at the top of our game....not the case in the prem. Ted was very unusually off form and with this, the starting back row wasn't packing it's normal punch carrying. Scrum should have been dominant but wasn't.
Hoping for a big reaction next week.
But I sort of got the feeling we were starting to believe our own hype, and that we can stroll into the Top four without being at the top of our game....not the case in the prem. Ted was very unusually off form and with this, the starting back row wasn't packing it's normal punch carrying. Scrum should have been dominant but wasn't.
Hoping for a big reaction next week.
So much vitriol towards Ridley.
Of course there is, Bath lost!
Nonetheless, it’s not uncommon for the TV pundits to cast doubt on ref/ TMO decisions. Today, apart from a blatant ‘hands on the floor in front of ball on turnover’ they didn’t. Yes, O’Driscoll & Flats called a few decisions 50/50 but for Bath fans on this forum to berate Ridley as one of the reasons for the result is ridiculous tho not surprising.
Was it the officials fault that Bath’s midfield defence was non existent?
Was it the officials fault that Bath couldn’t negate the Bears driving line out?
Was it the officials fault that Bristol ‘out energised’ Bath?
Was it the officials fault that Bath’s line out malfunctioned?
There’s more but I’m beginning to bore myself……
And before you eagle eyed Bath fans notice that I’m a Chiefs fan, yes, I am expecting a lesson tomorrow at the Stonex and yes I’m glad Newcastle are going to be a potential play off spot that we may just avoid.
Objectivity is my mantra rather than simply subjective emotion
Of course there is, Bath lost!
Nonetheless, it’s not uncommon for the TV pundits to cast doubt on ref/ TMO decisions. Today, apart from a blatant ‘hands on the floor in front of ball on turnover’ they didn’t. Yes, O’Driscoll & Flats called a few decisions 50/50 but for Bath fans on this forum to berate Ridley as one of the reasons for the result is ridiculous tho not surprising.
Was it the officials fault that Bath’s midfield defence was non existent?
Was it the officials fault that Bath couldn’t negate the Bears driving line out?
Was it the officials fault that Bristol ‘out energised’ Bath?
Was it the officials fault that Bath’s line out malfunctioned?
There’s more but I’m beginning to bore myself……
And before you eagle eyed Bath fans notice that I’m a Chiefs fan, yes, I am expecting a lesson tomorrow at the Stonex and yes I’m glad Newcastle are going to be a potential play off spot that we may just avoid.
Objectivity is my mantra rather than simply subjective emotion
Now that the dust has settled, I'd say that the first half (and some of the second) was a perfect storm from a Bath perspective:
- Perfect conditions meant Bristol could run it from anywhere knowing they had the handling skills to hurt Bath (and probably most teams on a day like today)
- A smattering of uncharacteristic sloppiness from Bath in terms of lineout, knock ons, missing tackles, etc
- Bath failing to adapt their game plan after the first 20 mins when it became clear what Bristol's tactics were
From where I was sitting it quickly became clear that Bath weren't going to be able to smother Bristol's attack and then turn defence into point scoring opportunities (like Saracens were famed for), Bristol's attack was too good and our defence was off the pace.
But despite this we were still playing percentage rugby and kicking the ball away when we were in our own half. I think it needed one of the leaders in the team to speak up and identify that giving possession back to the opposition was playing to their biggest strength, and we really needed to go through the phases and dictate the pace of play, even if that meant doing so inside our half.
On Bristol, their defence punched well above their weight I thought, their backrow far outperformed ours, and they have 2 players in Ibitoye and BJvR who seem to take 3-4 defenders to bring down. I tend to think most teams would struggle to live with them in this sort of mood in dry conditions. The question for them will be whether they can maintain this style of play over the winter months, if they're in touching distance of the top 4 come the March/April then they could easily put together a late surge in the Spring sunshine (similar to last season).
- Perfect conditions meant Bristol could run it from anywhere knowing they had the handling skills to hurt Bath (and probably most teams on a day like today)
- A smattering of uncharacteristic sloppiness from Bath in terms of lineout, knock ons, missing tackles, etc
- Bath failing to adapt their game plan after the first 20 mins when it became clear what Bristol's tactics were
From where I was sitting it quickly became clear that Bath weren't going to be able to smother Bristol's attack and then turn defence into point scoring opportunities (like Saracens were famed for), Bristol's attack was too good and our defence was off the pace.
But despite this we were still playing percentage rugby and kicking the ball away when we were in our own half. I think it needed one of the leaders in the team to speak up and identify that giving possession back to the opposition was playing to their biggest strength, and we really needed to go through the phases and dictate the pace of play, even if that meant doing so inside our half.
On Bristol, their defence punched well above their weight I thought, their backrow far outperformed ours, and they have 2 players in Ibitoye and BJvR who seem to take 3-4 defenders to bring down. I tend to think most teams would struggle to live with them in this sort of mood in dry conditions. The question for them will be whether they can maintain this style of play over the winter months, if they're in touching distance of the top 4 come the March/April then they could easily put together a late surge in the Spring sunshine (similar to last season).
Very obvious knock ons when B**h had got themselves into scoring situations. The referee was entirely correct. You need high level skills to be executed well to succeed at this level. Not Mr Ridley's fault they weren't.
I hate this ritual whereby we have to caveat everything by saying it wasnt the ref, lest someone pops up to say 'it wasn't the ref'.
Likewise this idea you can't criticise refereeing, especially in defeat.
Both are true in a sense. We were outplayed and a different ref wouldn't.have yielded a different result. But no doubt some of Ridley's decisions were against what has come to be the norm (and actually I think some of his decisions were how I would have reffed them but the game generally seems to have taken a different path).
Annoyingly that was the game I expected Bath to play. We always struggle when teams are positive and we can't maintain control. We're not a team that'll adapt to score 50 points if the opposition score 49.
I think mentally we weren't at the.games. We're certainly not technically that lacking at the basics. Coaching needed to rectify that and maybe this may serve as an early season wake up.
Likewise this idea you can't criticise refereeing, especially in defeat.
Both are true in a sense. We were outplayed and a different ref wouldn't.have yielded a different result. But no doubt some of Ridley's decisions were against what has come to be the norm (and actually I think some of his decisions were how I would have reffed them but the game generally seems to have taken a different path).
Annoyingly that was the game I expected Bath to play. We always struggle when teams are positive and we can't maintain control. We're not a team that'll adapt to score 50 points if the opposition score 49.
I think mentally we weren't at the.games. We're certainly not technically that lacking at the basics. Coaching needed to rectify that and maybe this may serve as an early season wake up.
Quote:Rowancroft73
So much vitriol towards Ridley.
Of course there is, Bath lost!
Nonetheless, it’s not uncommon for the TV pundits to cast doubt on ref/ TMO decisions. Today, apart from a blatant ‘hands on the floor in front of ball on turnover’ they didn’t. Yes, O’Driscoll & Flats called a few decisions 50/50 but for Bath fans on this forum to berate Ridley as one of the reasons for the result is ridiculous tho not surprising.
Was it the officials fault that Bath’s midfield defence was non existent?
Was it the officials fault that Bath couldn’t negate the Bears driving line out?
Was it the officials fault that Bristol ‘out energised’ Bath?
Was it the officials fault that Bath’s line out malfunctioned?
There’s more but I’m beginning to bore myself……
And before you eagle eyed Bath fans notice that I’m a Chiefs fan, yes, I am expecting a lesson tomorrow at the Stonex and yes I’m glad Newcastle are going to be a potential play off spot that we may just avoid.
Objectivity is my mantra rather than simply subjective emotion
An odd post, this - getting all het up about nothing. Read what's been written - I think pretty much everyone has acknowledged that Bristol were the better team, that Bath weren't at the races and had the referee had a perfect game it wouldn't have changed the result.
Yes it’s been said up thread but apparently needs continuous repetition.
‘Bath were poor and beaten by the better team’ and ‘the referee had a poor game’ are not mutually exclusive statements
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
‘Bath were poor and beaten by the better team’ and ‘the referee had a poor game’ are not mutually exclusive statements
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
We lost the first half, won the second half and still remain joint favourites with Sarries for the Prem title [www.oddschecker.com]
Came away from the game v disappointed to lose at home to our nearest rivals, fair play to them, so I hope we sort it this week for the trip up to Gloucester...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Came away from the game v disappointed to lose at home to our nearest rivals, fair play to them, so I hope we sort it this week for the trip up to Gloucester...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3k
We lost the first half, won the second half and still remain joint favourites with Sarries for the Prem title [www.oddschecker.com]
Came away from the game v disappointed to lose at home to our nearest rivals, fair play to them, so I hope we sort it this week for the trip up to Gloucester...
No way can Bath be seriously considered joint favourites whilst capable of that level of performance. Simply have to respond and show more effort next week.
There were a few positives though
1) Harris try was a joy to watch
2) Coetzee made a real impact and surely has to start next week.
3) Apparently it was a sellout.
4) Very pleasing not have to put up with the usual Bristol band of yobs, seems the pricing structure is working.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Clarkey3k
We lost the first half, won the second half and still remain joint favourites with Sarries for the Prem title [www.oddschecker.com]
Came away from the game v disappointed to lose at home to our nearest rivals, fair play to them, so I hope we sort it this week for the trip up to Gloucester...
No way can Bath be seriously considered joint favourites whilst capable of that level of performance. Simply have to respond and show more effort next week.
There were a few positives though
1) Harris try was a joy to watch
2) Coetzee made a real impact and surely has to start next week.
3) Apparently it was a sellout.
4) Very pleasing not have to put up with the usual Bristol band of yobs, seems the pricing structure is working.
Stay classy.
The amount of negative ref comments this site seems to yield is always a bit embarrassing. And the one TMO call I thought was a bit harsh (Hill's effort) was a TMO led call - but in any case the idea that Bath would have had seven more points on the board at the end of the game had that had been given as a try totally ignores the fact that Harris's try would not have been scored had Hill's had been given. The TMO decision on Hill meant it went back to the penalty to Bath and a couple of minutes pressure on the Bristol line before the Harris try. In fact the Hill decision may have given Bath an extra two points because a touchline conversion was replaced with one next to the posts.
Just read Stephen Jones's report on the match in The Sunday Times who remarked "the referee had an outstanding game". He's a neutral who enjoyed the match enormously....
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3k
Just read Stephen Jones's report on the match in The Sunday Times who remarked "the referee had an outstanding game". He's a neutral who enjoyed the match enormously....
Oh no we’re in the “citing Stephen Jones” stage of the conversation.
Quote:What a thoroughly odious post, I bet you’re about as much fun as root canal treatment! As a “Bristol yob” I can easily afford the ticket price, I chose not to as I refuse to pay a price similar to what I have paid to watch England v The All Blacks in a few weeks for club rugby in facilities that are nothing short of disgraceful in 2024. Enjoy the rest of the season.OutsideBathQuote:Clarkey3k
We lost the first half, won the second half and still remain joint favourites with Sarries for the Prem title [www.oddschecker.com]
Came away from the game v disappointed to lose at home to our nearest rivals, fair play to them, so I hope we sort it this week for the trip up to Gloucester...
No way can Bath be seriously considered joint favourites whilst capable of that level of performance. Simply have to respond and show more effort next week.
There were a few positives though
Be
1) Harris try was a joy to watch
2) Coetzee made a real impact and surely has to start next week.
3) Apparently it was a sellout.
4) Very pleasing not have to put up with the usual Bristol band of yobs, seems the pricing structure is working.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:06:10:26:18 by Bears81.
Quote:Rich.
the idea that Bath would have had seven more points on the board at the end of the game had that had been given as a try totally ignores the fact that Harris's try would not have been scored had Hill's had been given.
Very true Rich, but most of the criticism of the ref is about scrum & ruck offences (especially many cases of the latter) or offside.
In World Rugby's Laws of The Game under "Principles of the Game" is the following statement:
"CONTEST AND CONTINUITY
The contest for possession of the ball is one of rugby's key features. These contests occur throughout the game and in a number of different forms"
This is basic to the object and spirit of the game.
Going off feet and sealing off at the ruck is the very opposite of a contest for the ball. If this infringement is not punished, the outcome becomes one sided. Bristol consistently went off feet and sealed off at the ruck, including several times on their own goal line. It should be no surprise therefore that supporters are disappointed that their infringements went largely unpunished and were repeated throughout.
PG
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Clarkey3k
We lost the first half, won the second half and still remain joint favourites with Sarries for the Prem title [www.oddschecker.com]
Came away from the game v disappointed to lose at home to our nearest rivals, fair play to them, so I hope we sort it this week for the trip up to Gloucester...
No way can Bath be seriously considered joint favourites whilst capable of that level of performance. Simply have to respond and show more effort next week.
There were a few positives though
1) Harris try was a joy to watch
2) Coetzee made a real impact and surely has to start next week.
3) Apparently it was a sellout.
4) Very pleasing not have to put up with the usual Bristol band of yobs, seems the pricing structure is working.
[youtu.be]
There are going to be quite a few surprise results especially against up & down teams like Bristol. The overall quality throughout the Premiership is high & if any team is not completely on their game they will be punished. Hopefully it is a one off & our status should not be affected at this stage.
Quote:P G TipsQuote:Rich.
the idea that Bath would have had seven more points on the board at the end of the game had that had been given as a try totally ignores the fact that Harris's try would not have been scored had Hill's had been given.
Very true Rich, but most of the criticism of the ref is about scrum & ruck offences (especially many cases of the latter) or offside.
In World Rugby's Laws of The Game under "Principles of the Game" is the following statement:
"CONTEST AND CONTINUITY
The contest for possession of the ball is one of rugby's key features. These contests occur throughout the game and in a number of different forms"
This is basic to the object and spirit of the game.
Going off feet and sealing off at the ruck is the very opposite of a contest for the ball. If this infringement is not punished, the outcome becomes one sided. Bristol consistently went off feet and sealed off at the ruck, including several times on their own goal line. It should be no surprise therefore that supporters are disappointed that their infringements went largely unpunished and were repeated throughout.
PG
But as much as some of us might think we could ref scrums we need to accept that the ref in the middle has lots of real experience reffing them and lots of training on reffing them and is assessed etc. As for rucks and offside, every fan mainly only sees potential offences from the opposition - 'fact'. I tried to pretend I was an opposition fan one time and the amount of potential offsides I suddenly and infringements I saw!! A lot of potential offsides when watched in slow mo aren't offside either.
No one I believe is suggesting Bears were not the better team and fully deserved their victory.
Personally for me I believe Ridley was very poor indeed, he certainly wasn’t helped by either the TMO or assistants.
There are as PG has mentioned plenty of examples of blatant offences ignored around the ruck and scrum including Bears players coming round offside and just putting their hands in the air whilst interfering with play, however there is one in particular which sticks in my mind at scrum time.
Ridley penalises Genge correctly for placing his knee on the floor under pressure from TDT. Shortly later Van Wyk is penalised for boring in Flatman states that is the right call? However when the replays are shown not Once but Twice during that scrum Lahiff’s knee clearly goes to ground right in front of Ridley. Spencer points it out to Ridley who ignores him. Consistency?
Whatever then officiating it does not detract from a brilliant Bears performance and a thoroughly deserved win.
Personally for me I believe Ridley was very poor indeed, he certainly wasn’t helped by either the TMO or assistants.
There are as PG has mentioned plenty of examples of blatant offences ignored around the ruck and scrum including Bears players coming round offside and just putting their hands in the air whilst interfering with play, however there is one in particular which sticks in my mind at scrum time.
Ridley penalises Genge correctly for placing his knee on the floor under pressure from TDT. Shortly later Van Wyk is penalised for boring in Flatman states that is the right call? However when the replays are shown not Once but Twice during that scrum Lahiff’s knee clearly goes to ground right in front of Ridley. Spencer points it out to Ridley who ignores him. Consistency?
Whatever then officiating it does not detract from a brilliant Bears performance and a thoroughly deserved win.
Quote:Rich.
...every fan mainly only sees potential offences from the opposition - 'fact'. I tried to pretend I was an opposition fan one time ...
Great post this. I'd love to get your analysis on the head injuries thread.
Apart from the total absence of any intensity from Bath, there were 2 things that concerned me most.
1) Where was the defence in midfield? Bristol waltzed through at will.
2) The lineout continues to be dreadful and the 3 early long throws were borderline stupid.
1) Where was the defence in midfield? Bristol waltzed through at will.
2) The lineout continues to be dreadful and the 3 early long throws were borderline stupid.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Clarkey3k
We lost the first half, won the second half and still remain joint favourites with Sarries for the Prem title [www.oddschecker.com]
Came away from the game v disappointed to lose at home to our nearest rivals, fair play to them, so I hope we sort it this week for the trip up to Gloucester...
No way can Bath be seriously considered joint favourites whilst capable of that level of performance. Simply have to respond and show more effort next week.
There were a few positives though
1) Harris try was a joy to watch
2) Coetzee made a real impact and surely has to start next week.
3) Apparently it was a sellout.
4) Very pleasing not have to put up with the usual Bristol band of yobs, seems the pricing structure is working.
Small team mentality
Quote:theredseatQuote:Clarkey3k
Just read Stephen Jones's report on the match in The Sunday Times who remarked "the referee had an outstanding game". He's a neutral who enjoyed the match enormously....
Oh no we’re in the “citing Stephen Jones” stage of the conversation.
If Stephen jones thinks it was officiated well that confirms my feeling they were v poor. The guy hasn't written a good article since the 1980s.
I tend to only comment in detail on officiating when I feel a bit robbed. Given we were awful (and bris were good) I feel like we got what we deserved so whilst mystified by the inconsistency there seems little point moaning.
Agree with the comments about first up tackling being a real issue. We consistently have a problem with bris of gifting them line breaks , easy yardage and front foot ball.
Disrespectful to not accept alot of that is excellent coaching and attack by bris ( van rensberg is a great player) but you cannot be missing 25% of tackles and expect to win.
Lineout also a fairly consistent problem- I know we always have the ' it's not always the hookers fault' debate but clearly quite a few of them were yest.
Hats off to jaco coetzee- he consistently makes a fantastic impact off the bench, they just couldn't stop him making yards in heavy traffic.
Disrespectful to not accept alot of that is excellent coaching and attack by bris ( van rensberg is a great player) but you cannot be missing 25% of tackles and expect to win.
Lineout also a fairly consistent problem- I know we always have the ' it's not always the hookers fault' debate but clearly quite a few of them were yest.
Hats off to jaco coetzee- he consistently makes a fantastic impact off the bench, they just couldn't stop him making yards in heavy traffic.
Quote:Ali1969
Ridley penalises Genge correctly for placing his knee on the floor under pressure from TDT. Shortly later Van Wyk is penalised for boring in Flatman states that is the right call? However when the replays are shown not Once but Twice during that scrum Lahiff’s knee clearly goes to ground right in front of Ridley. Spencer points it out to Ridley who ignores him. Consistency?.
To be fair Ridley explained the decision to Genge, in that it wasn't so much the knee going to ground but the "attack" his recovery allowed.
Quote:ChippenhamRomanQuote:Ali1969
Agree - Butt having a poor game missing far too many tackles - I don’t know why but Bears certainly have our number - we just cannot seem to cope with them.
Most disappointing aspect of that first half is that Bears appear hungrier than us and that is inexcusable.
And their knoob head fans. Seriously Bath, this is the team you choose your worst performance of the season.
Not Newcastle or Sale?
J
I take it that we will not be seeing many of you for the return fixture in Cardiff since you find Bris fans so odious?
Still scratching my head trying to work out how things went so terribly wrong yesterday. Bristol were excellent and no disputing that they outshone us in all aspects of the game. The ref may have made some errors although I did not see anything too obvious just some 50/50 calls that didn't go our way. However, he did NOT cost us the game and anyone trying to blame the officiating is frankly wrong.
We just seemed completely off the pace from the first whistle with huge holes in our defence, players easily breaking through tackles, poor basics such as overthrows at lineouts and almost slow motion clear out from rucks. No single player performance cost us the game but do not think that Reid should be starting at number 8 when both Barbeary and Coetzee are fit and remain unconvinced by Annett starting at hooker. On a more positive note our young full back made a promising start aside from his great try.
I hope that yesterday was a one off and expect to see a fully charged raring to go performance next weekend.
We just seemed completely off the pace from the first whistle with huge holes in our defence, players easily breaking through tackles, poor basics such as overthrows at lineouts and almost slow motion clear out from rucks. No single player performance cost us the game but do not think that Reid should be starting at number 8 when both Barbeary and Coetzee are fit and remain unconvinced by Annett starting at hooker. On a more positive note our young full back made a promising start aside from his great try.
I hope that yesterday was a one off and expect to see a fully charged raring to go performance next weekend.
Moving back to the rugby and away from the petty name calling, I echo the comments about Bath lacking intensity. After Briz’s first try there was a look of complete bewilderment from the team and it didn’t change for the whole match.
From what I saw, I understand why we keep being linked with hookers, and I hope the rumours of Will Porter are true as Spenno had a rare off day and the option on the bench didn’t exactly up the tempo.
Sam Harris may have scored a brilliant try, and he certainly has a bright future, but defensively he’s not a full back as he fell off tackles far too often.
Lam said that he doesn’t have to motivate his team before this match, and I question whether JvG would say the same about us. Granted we fans are far more wedded to the romance of a derby game, but it really didn’t seem like we were up for that match.
Finn had a poor game by his standards, but was still different gravy at times and I’m glad he has his kicking boots back.
Hopefully this is a blip. Beaten by a well drilled side who really wanted the win, but learn from it and wallop Glaws next week.
From what I saw, I understand why we keep being linked with hookers, and I hope the rumours of Will Porter are true as Spenno had a rare off day and the option on the bench didn’t exactly up the tempo.
Sam Harris may have scored a brilliant try, and he certainly has a bright future, but defensively he’s not a full back as he fell off tackles far too often.
Lam said that he doesn’t have to motivate his team before this match, and I question whether JvG would say the same about us. Granted we fans are far more wedded to the romance of a derby game, but it really didn’t seem like we were up for that match.
Finn had a poor game by his standards, but was still different gravy at times and I’m glad he has his kicking boots back.
Hopefully this is a blip. Beaten by a well drilled side who really wanted the win, but learn from it and wallop Glaws next week.
I don't like the use of the stats term missed tackles. It's very negative and doesn't suggest the 'miss' may actually a great angle, turn of speed or side step causing the would be tackler to be beaten. It links to the one eyedness thing - "my team breaks through and beats defenders whereas when the opposition go through it is my team missing tackles"
Quote:Rich.
I don't like the use of the stats term missed tackles. It's very negative and doesn't suggest the 'miss' may actually a great angle, turn of speed or side step causing the would be tackler to be beaten. It links to the one eyedness thing - "my team breaks through and beats defenders whereas when the opposition go through it is my team missing tackles"
The thing is though we did consistently miss tackles yesterday and they weren’t all down to side step etc.
The tackling (or lack of) was symptomatic of the lack of intensity throughout the game by Bath.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Rich.
I don't like the use of the stats term missed tackles. It's very negative and doesn't suggest the 'miss' may actually a great angle, turn of speed or side step causing the would be tackler to be beaten. It links to the one eyedness thing - "my team breaks through and beats defenders whereas when the opposition go through it is my team missing tackles"
The thing is though we did consistently miss tackles yesterday and they weren’t all down to side step etc.
The tackling (or lack of) was symptomatic of the lack of intensity throughout the game by Bath.
This.
More than happy to give credit to some quality attacking but there was numerous soft, missed tackles also which encapsulated our lacklustre display
I used to think Bath were the rugby equivalent of Liverpool - a sleeping giant that will come good. However, I’ve come to realise they’re more like Tottenham.
I don't thnk anyone on here has yet mentioned the 6-day turnround.
A contributary factor to the lack of energy perhaps?
As well as:
With injuries, Butt and Lawrence tackling slight off because been playing 80min/week?
Similarly Russell & Spencer playing 80min because the gap to our second choices is wide?
DuToit back in a week early after a tiring Championship?
For me the biggest one was Annett's lineout throwing. Gifted Bris two tries, and stopped our gameplan dead. I don't think he's a bad player, more than capable of starting. Maybe having been handed a rare start, he was trying too hard.
Obano confused me. He was limping around at the end of the first half not helping the energy of the team. He starts the second, clearly not right, and has to go off almost immediately. Then he has to come back on later. I'd be surprised if we see him play next week.
A contributary factor to the lack of energy perhaps?
As well as:
With injuries, Butt and Lawrence tackling slight off because been playing 80min/week?
Similarly Russell & Spencer playing 80min because the gap to our second choices is wide?
DuToit back in a week early after a tiring Championship?
For me the biggest one was Annett's lineout throwing. Gifted Bris two tries, and stopped our gameplan dead. I don't think he's a bad player, more than capable of starting. Maybe having been handed a rare start, he was trying too hard.
Obano confused me. He was limping around at the end of the first half not helping the energy of the team. He starts the second, clearly not right, and has to go off almost immediately. Then he has to come back on later. I'd be surprised if we see him play next week.
Bristol wanted it more.
Some of those players need to look in the mirror.
Dreadful approach to a derby game. Poor
Some of those players need to look in the mirror.
Dreadful approach to a derby game. Poor
Quote:Bath Blues
Bristol wanted it more.
Some of those players need to look in the mirror.
Dreadful approach to a derby game. Poor
Wrong on every level
One sub par performance with luck and 50-50 decisions not going our way doesn't make us a dreadful team
Sure there are things to fix. Some things not quite right in the defence system and coaches need to look at why we couldn't get more and better ball back for Ben and Finn to get us on top of the game
The players, coaches and ethos are all there to get us into top 4 come end of the season and a great shot at the title but there are 9 very, very good teams and with small differences it means there will be results like that from time to time
It is how we respond that matters
But I understand the immense disappointment
It was a poor performance coupled as Gaz states with decisions not going our way. That in no way makes us a bad team - what it does show is that in this league if you are 10% off you will be beaten - personally I cannot see any team going the season unbeaten - it will be like last year picking up as many points as you can.
With the British winter coming Bears with their amazing attacking game (a bit like us of old) appear to struggle in freezing wet conditions where you cannot just throw the ball around - add to that internationals when they will lose Genge, Randell and possibly Malins it will seriously test squad depth as it will ours and other teams.
It was a real shame we did not show up on Saturday - but much of that credit must be given to the Bears who once again had our number.
I know the team will be hurting and wanting to put it right - but that is sport you always get an opportunity to right the wrongs in the next match.
I would imagine however, JvG will be seeking some serious answers in relation to interpretations and thought process of Ridley and his TMO from the Refereeing Dept.
With the British winter coming Bears with their amazing attacking game (a bit like us of old) appear to struggle in freezing wet conditions where you cannot just throw the ball around - add to that internationals when they will lose Genge, Randell and possibly Malins it will seriously test squad depth as it will ours and other teams.
It was a real shame we did not show up on Saturday - but much of that credit must be given to the Bears who once again had our number.
I know the team will be hurting and wanting to put it right - but that is sport you always get an opportunity to right the wrongs in the next match.
I would imagine however, JvG will be seeking some serious answers in relation to interpretations and thought process of Ridley and his TMO from the Refereeing Dept.
I would add that Randall was at the heart of all Bristol's good attacking play, when the ruck speed is that quick there's arguably not a better 9 in the league.
That being said, I'd still favour Spencer as a better all round scrum half, yesterday was a off day for him, but once the winter sets in and it becomes self destructive to snipe or go wide from every breakdown, I'm confident that his kicking game/control will win us far more matches than it loses.
That being said, I'd still favour Spencer as a better all round scrum half, yesterday was a off day for him, but once the winter sets in and it becomes self destructive to snipe or go wide from every breakdown, I'm confident that his kicking game/control will win us far more matches than it loses.
Randall obviously suits Bristol’s game plan but I am not sure that then transfers to International level!
Spencer not had the best couple of weeks but is class.
If Mitchell not fit for AIs my preference would be Spencer starting and JVP on the bench.
Spencer not had the best couple of weeks but is class.
If Mitchell not fit for AIs my preference would be Spencer starting and JVP on the bench.
Quote:gaz59Quote:Bath Blues
Bristol wanted it more.
Some of those players need to look in the mirror.
Dreadful approach to a derby game. Poor
Wrong on every level
One sub par performance with luck and 50-50 decisions not going our way doesn't make us a dreadful team
Sure there are things to fix. Some things not quite right in the defence system and coaches need to look at why we couldn't get more and better ball back for Ben and Finn to get us on top of the game
The players, coaches and ethos are all there to get us into top 4 come end of the season and a great shot at the title but there are 9 very, very good teams and with small differences it means there will be results like that from time to time
It is how we respond that matters
But I understand the immense disappointment
Not wrong on every level Gaz, Bristol did appear to want it more and the so called 50/50 decisions had nothing to do with the result. From the 1st minute it was clear Bristol were going to win.
Do agree that there is certainly something seriously wrong with the defensive systems.
Possible to fix what went wrong last Saturday, but Gloucester are the last team we need to be playing after such a bad day at the office.
It was a disappointing performance. Lam also seems to target the derbies in ways that JvG doesn't. But it's one game, no need to overreact and let's take it out on Glaws this weekend.
Actually think this result could be a good thing for us in the long-term.
A lot of the start of season predictions had us a favourites, and the dismantling of the Champions and away win vs Leicester only strengthened those arguments.
We are not used to the favourites tag. Was a performance that looked as if we thought we only needed to turn up on Saturday.
If JvG is half the coach we all think he is, we'll use this reality check to galvanise us and perhaps be happy to let Sarries take the favourites tag they're more accustomed to. We won't fly under the radar with the squad we have but takes the heat off (to a degree).
A lot of the start of season predictions had us a favourites, and the dismantling of the Champions and away win vs Leicester only strengthened those arguments.
We are not used to the favourites tag. Was a performance that looked as if we thought we only needed to turn up on Saturday.
If JvG is half the coach we all think he is, we'll use this reality check to galvanise us and perhaps be happy to let Sarries take the favourites tag they're more accustomed to. We won't fly under the radar with the squad we have but takes the heat off (to a degree).
Quote:hasta
It was a disappointing performance. Lam also seems to target the derbies in ways that JvG doesn't. But it's one game, no need to overreact and let's take it out on Glaws this weekend.
I'm sure JvG and his coaching team won't overreact, but they really have a lot of problems to fix in 7 days.
For me as a fan that performance was reminiscent of the Hooper days which is alarming and I didn't think was possible with this squad/coaching setup.
We lost 7/18 games last season. Even Saints only won 12/18 - 10 points from that run of 3 fixtures is pretty much on 'budget'.
We crossed the try-line 6 times, so if that's as terrible a performance as some are making out, then things really can't be too bad.
We crossed the try-line 6 times, so if that's as terrible a performance as some are making out, then things really can't be too bad.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:hasta
It was a disappointing performance. Lam also seems to target the derbies in ways that JvG doesn't. But it's one game, no need to overreact and let's take it out on Glaws this weekend.
I'm sure JvG and his coaching team won't overreact, but they really have a lot of problems to fix in 7 days.
For me as a fan that performance was reminiscent of the Hooper days which is alarming and I didn't think was possible with this squad/coaching setup.
Not sure we would have managed to cross the opposition's try line seven times under Hoops!
To think how poor we were for 45-50 minutes, and how good Bristol were in that period, getting over their line 7 times was pretty good return from such a bad performance. On another day with different interpretations that may still have resulted in 5 points not 1.
However, the lineout was awful, the intensity was well off, midfield defence awol, and Oghre wreaked havoc at the breakdown.
Quote:Optimist
We lost 7/18 games last season. Even Saints only won 12/18 - 10 points from that run of 3 fixtures is pretty much on 'budget'.
We crossed the try-line 6 times, so if that's as terrible a performance as some are making out, then things really can't be too bad.
I think you’re right but the disappointing thing is that it was a home match. It’s harder to win away..
I'd say the Leicester win was a nice bonus, and the Bristol loss was unexpected.
So on balance, 2 wins from our first 3 games is roughly on track.
So on balance, 2 wins from our first 3 games is roughly on track.
I agree- having calmed down a bit- I don't think it's the end of the world or too worrying. Losing to Bristol and Gloucester in consecutive weeks, however, would be a concern, especially with Saracens looking so hot at the top. Vital week coming up.
Can't help thinking back to how crucial Underhill's brain fade was. We were 6 points down, 20 minutes to go, and had the momentum. Yes, they'd made a linebreak, but they were outside of our 22 and weren't walking in a try. To be so clearly in from the side/off feet seemed like a strange and unnecessary decision from someone so experienced. First game for a while and he clearly wanted to make an impact- but it was a choice that, ultimately, put the game beyond us. If we'd kept cool heads at that point, it felt like we were the team in the ascendancy for the first time.
Ah well. Bring on Glos.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Can't help thinking back to how crucial Underhill's brain fade was. We were 6 points down, 20 minutes to go, and had the momentum. Yes, they'd made a linebreak, but they were outside of our 22 and weren't walking in a try. To be so clearly in from the side/off feet seemed like a strange and unnecessary decision from someone so experienced. First game for a while and he clearly wanted to make an impact- but it was a choice that, ultimately, put the game beyond us. If we'd kept cool heads at that point, it felt like we were the team in the ascendancy for the first time.
Ah well. Bring on Glos.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:dr.bath1865
I agree- having calmed down a bit- I don't think it's the end of the world or too worrying. Losing to Bristol and Gloucester in consecutive weeks, however, would be a concern, especially with Saracens looking so hot at the top. Vital week coming up.
Ah well. Bring on Glos.
Agree dr.b.
Learn and apply the lessons and win away at Glos - which we have done in both JvG's seasons to date - and we would be right back on track.
I actually think it could be the ideal fixture for recovery: the derby motivation should certainly be strong.
PG
Due to being at the ground on Saturday (and I'm feeling particularly masochistic), I've now gone through some of the key moments to see what I may have missed from the stands.
The main thing it highlighted was just how bad the one up tackling was (reminiscent of the "bring him down" scene from Lord of the Rings), I'd say that alone was the biggest contributor to our poor performance.
That being said, I found a few bits in the replays that add a bit of context to the poor defence:
Malins Try
Admittedly lovely hands from the Bristol backline, but it was interesting to see BJvR's contribution in the move.
It's a case of which player initiated contact, but Butt was one of the covering defenders who'd have been tracking across had he not been on the deck. Bristol may well have scored anyway if it had been interpreted differently, but for anyone wondering why Bristol could have driven a bus through our defence on this phase, I think this contributed towards it.
Grondona Try
Another example of Bath's defence seeming to part like the Red Sea, but Luatua takes an interesting running line as Genge releases the ball
He doesn't take Obano out, but again Obano is covering on the inside and gets close to catching Grondona, so without Luatua bumping into him he may well have been able to drag him down.
Build up to Underhill yellow card
Grondona runs a dummy line, which seems to obscure Dunn, creating the gap for MacGinty to sprint through.
None of these instances are egregious, but Bristol were definitely being creative with their players in front of the ball, so perhaps something that we should look to emulate if it's all considered above board. Ultimately after it happens a few times, a switched on side should be able to adapt so that they don't get drawn into it.
The main thing it highlighted was just how bad the one up tackling was (reminiscent of the "bring him down" scene from Lord of the Rings), I'd say that alone was the biggest contributor to our poor performance.
That being said, I found a few bits in the replays that add a bit of context to the poor defence:
Malins Try
Admittedly lovely hands from the Bristol backline, but it was interesting to see BJvR's contribution in the move.
It's a case of which player initiated contact, but Butt was one of the covering defenders who'd have been tracking across had he not been on the deck. Bristol may well have scored anyway if it had been interpreted differently, but for anyone wondering why Bristol could have driven a bus through our defence on this phase, I think this contributed towards it.
Grondona Try
Another example of Bath's defence seeming to part like the Red Sea, but Luatua takes an interesting running line as Genge releases the ball
He doesn't take Obano out, but again Obano is covering on the inside and gets close to catching Grondona, so without Luatua bumping into him he may well have been able to drag him down.
Build up to Underhill yellow card
Grondona runs a dummy line, which seems to obscure Dunn, creating the gap for MacGinty to sprint through.
None of these instances are egregious, but Bristol were definitely being creative with their players in front of the ball, so perhaps something that we should look to emulate if it's all considered above board. Ultimately after it happens a few times, a switched on side should be able to adapt so that they don't get drawn into it.
Thanks bbb
The first two of those are definitely obstructions.
The third would depend on how the ref saw it, but technically could be classed as obstruction also.
Had any of the officials spotted the first one then Malins try would I believe have been struck off.
PG
The first two of those are definitely obstructions.
The third would depend on how the ref saw it, but technically could be classed as obstruction also.
Had any of the officials spotted the first one then Malins try would I believe have been struck off.
PG
Saracens going very well........
3 games out of 18 already played.......
3 games out of 18 already played.......
Gloucester did to Bristol what they did to us though Bristol almost came back to win. They will also have home advantage. I hope and expect there to have been a detailed analysis of what went wrong & how to address it otherwise the season will start to get derailed.
BathHammer,
Bath have the same issue as Tigers, Saints and Saracens have in trying to prepare for a ‘Derby’ league match with a third of their first XV’s away at a 3 day England Training Camp.
Whilst Gloucester getting the same Money from the RFU provide none!
Bath have the same issue as Tigers, Saints and Saracens have in trying to prepare for a ‘Derby’ league match with a third of their first XV’s away at a 3 day England Training Camp.
Whilst Gloucester getting the same Money from the RFU provide none!
I am surprised no-one else has commented on boozeboozebooze's post above.
Are we now so used to seeing obstruction that we accept it as normal?
PG
Are we now so used to seeing obstruction that we accept it as normal?
PG
Quote:P G Tips
I am surprised no-one else has commented on boozeboozebooze's post above.
Are we now so used to seeing obstruction that we accept it as normal?
PG
It is normal and Bath should have been wise to Bristol’s tactics.
As for the ridiculous mid season training camp, maybe we should be looking to reduce the number of England players in the squad as it hinders Bath’s chances.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:P G Tips
I am surprised no-one else has commented on boozeboozebooze's post above.
Are we now so used to seeing obstruction that we accept it as normal?
PG
It is normal and Bath should have been wise to Bristol’s tactics.
It is not legal though:
Law 5 Foul Play:
1. An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play.
2. A player must not intentionally prevent an opponent from tackling or attempting to tackle the ball-carrier.
Sanction: Penalty.
As for being "wise to Bristol's tactics"- hard to do that when you are flat on your back!
PG
Quote:P G Tips
I am surprised no-one else has commented on boozeboozebooze's post above.
Are we now so used to seeing obstruction that we accept it as normal?
PG
I realise that I don't actually know the specific wording of the laws when it comes to obstruction, is anyone able to dig it out of the rulebook?
As far as I can tell, if one of the attacking players is running a dummy line, then there are 3 scenarios:
1. Attacker is behind the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against defence for tackle off the ball
2. Attacker is in front of the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Play on
3. Attacker is in front of the ball and attacker initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against attack for obstruction
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:08:09:57:58 by boozeboozebooze.
Did anyone else notice how utterly exhausted Ben Spencer was on Saturday towards the end of the game?
a/ 6/2 bench remains the stupidest tactic in the game
b/ we desperately need a bench 9 who is trusted to come on from 60 mins, who can add some impact, and is actually a genuine option to start occasionally
a/ 6/2 bench remains the stupidest tactic in the game
b/ we desperately need a bench 9 who is trusted to come on from 60 mins, who can add some impact, and is actually a genuine option to start occasionally
[quote boozeboozebooze][quote P G Tips]
I realise that I don't actually know the specific wording of the laws when it comes to obstruction, is anyone able to dig it out of the rulebook?
As far as I can tell, if one of the attacking players is running a dummy line, then there are 3 scenarios:
1. Attacker is behind the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against defence for tackle off the ball. -YES
2. Attacker is in front of the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Play on YES -I think so
3. Attacker is in front of the ball and attacker initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against attack for obstruction[/quote]YES
bbb
I quote the relevant section from Law 5 above. So- my interpretation for your scenarios is shown above.
If there is no contact play on, but should the ball carrier be halted an attacker in front of the ball would need to get back onside.
PG
I realise that I don't actually know the specific wording of the laws when it comes to obstruction, is anyone able to dig it out of the rulebook?
As far as I can tell, if one of the attacking players is running a dummy line, then there are 3 scenarios:
1. Attacker is behind the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against defence for tackle off the ball. -YES
2. Attacker is in front of the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Play on YES -I think so
3. Attacker is in front of the ball and attacker initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against attack for obstruction[/quote]YES
bbb
I quote the relevant section from Law 5 above. So- my interpretation for your scenarios is shown above.
If there is no contact play on, but should the ball carrier be halted an attacker in front of the ball would need to get back onside.
PG
[quote P G Tips][quote boozeboozebooze][quote P G Tips]
I realise that I don't actually know the specific wording of the laws when it comes to obstruction, is anyone able to dig it out of the rulebook?
As far as I can tell, if one of the attacking players is running a dummy line, then there are 3 scenarios:
1. Attacker is behind the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against defence for tackle off the ball. -YES
2. Attacker is in front of the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Play on YES -I think so
3. Attacker is in front of the ball and attacker initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against attack for obstruction[/quote]YES
bbb
I quote the relevant section from Law 5 above. So- my interpretation for your scenarios is shown above.
If there is no contact play on, but should the ball carrier be halted an attacker in front of the ball would need to get back onside.
PG[/quote]
Yep I spotted that you'd already answered my question before I'd posted it, must be a mind reader
I realise that I don't actually know the specific wording of the laws when it comes to obstruction, is anyone able to dig it out of the rulebook?
As far as I can tell, if one of the attacking players is running a dummy line, then there are 3 scenarios:
1. Attacker is behind the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against defence for tackle off the ball. -YES
2. Attacker is in front of the ball and defender initiates tackle/contact = Play on YES -I think so
3. Attacker is in front of the ball and attacker initiates tackle/contact = Penalty against attack for obstruction[/quote]YES
bbb
I quote the relevant section from Law 5 above. So- my interpretation for your scenarios is shown above.
If there is no contact play on, but should the ball carrier be halted an attacker in front of the ball would need to get back onside.
PG[/quote]
Yep I spotted that you'd already answered my question before I'd posted it, must be a mind reader
Quote:Optimist
Did anyone else notice how utterly exhausted Ben Spencer was on Saturday towards the end of the game?
a/ 6/2 bench remains the stupidest tactic in the game
b/ we desperately need a bench 9 who is trusted to come on from 60 mins, who can add some impact, and is actually a genuine option to start occasionally
There’s drawbacks to 6/2 but we’ve benefitted from it as well. Bigger issue is poor back up 9s which I’m not sure makes a difference to the bench set up
When Schreuder came on for McConnachie, Spencer went on the wing for a bit of a rest, but then came back to 9 when recovered and swapped with Schreuder. I can understand the tactic... but if you want a winger full of beans to chase the game and run at tired defenders at the end of the game, then it doesn't work.
Quote:Optimist
Did anyone else notice how utterly exhausted Ben Spencer was on Saturday towards the end of the game?
a/ 6/2 bench remains the stupidest tactic in the game
b/ we desperately need a bench 9 who is trusted to come on from 60 mins, who can add some impact, and is actually a genuine option to start occasionally
The whole team looked out on their feet at the end, they had very little structure and pattern to try and go for the last try. A little similar to the Saints final, except then we played most of the game with 14 men.
Yes, we were knackered- I guess because we let Bristol dictate what type of game it was going to be ie fast, wide and loose. Read that there were only 17 (or 27?!) kicks in the entire match, which feels about the same as in about the first 20 mins v Saints and Tigers. We didn’t impose ourselves upon the game- and got gassed as a result.
Also, our Sunday to Saturday turnaround didn’t help, especially when conpared to their Friday to Saturday.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Also, our Sunday to Saturday turnaround didn’t help, especially when conpared to their Friday to Saturday.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
I may well be alone in my opinion, but I believe that whereas Spencer has been an outstanding acquisition, scoring some unbelievable tries, he is most certainly now much slower in his distribution from the scrum and rucks.
He is continually faffing about too much and taking an inordinate time in getting the ball out giving the opposition more than enough time to organise their defence against our back line, which, on paper is one of the best in the premiership, when they receive quick ball.
If Spencer's distribution was half as fast as Randall's we would have defeated Bris by a country mile.
IMHO, of course.
He is continually faffing about too much and taking an inordinate time in getting the ball out giving the opposition more than enough time to organise their defence against our back line, which, on paper is one of the best in the premiership, when they receive quick ball.
If Spencer's distribution was half as fast as Randall's we would have defeated Bris by a country mile.
IMHO, of course.
Quote:P G TipsQuote:OutsideBathQuote:P G Tips
I am surprised no-one else has commented on boozeboozebooze's post above.
Are we now so used to seeing obstruction that we accept it as normal?
PG
It is normal and Bath should have been wise to Bristol’s tactics.
It is not legal though:
Law 5 Foul Play:
1. An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play.
2. A player must not intentionally prevent an opponent from tackling or attempting to tackle the ball-carrier.
Sanction: Penalty.
As for being "wise to Bristol's tactics"- hard to do that when you are flat on your back!
PG
I think PG we are all aware of official bashing and the claim of being sore losers.
Bears were outstanding and fully deserved to win - I believe most who were there or watching on TV know we did not get any rub of the green from Ridley or his TMO - I am not sure we even heard the TMO checking ANY of the Bears tries - yet almost all of ours were subject to a check - the three tries chalked off were very harsh - the first one was completely baffling - indeed Ridley straightaway asks if there is disconnect which there was not - and yet he still disallowed it - when Spencer questioned him his response made absolutely no sense and left Spencer looking completely bemused.
To be fair to Bears they were slick and the way they did what they did was clever - if you get away with it then run with it as long as you can. The same as running offside at the ruck standing in front of the scrum half and putting your hands in the air - Oghre did this on a number of occasions blocking off a passing lane and was not penalised once.
We have to park this one and move on - tough game on Saturday but there just has to be a reaction - emotionally and physically.
Quote:Hawksburn
I may well be alone in my opinion, but I believe that whereas Spencer has been an outstanding acquisition, scoring some unbelievable tries, he is most certainly now much slower in his distribution from the scrum and rucks.
He is continually faffing about too much and taking an inordinate time in getting the ball out giving the opposition more than enough time to organise their defence against our back line, which, on paper is one of the best in the premiership, when they receive quick ball.
If Spencer's distribution was half as fast as Randall's we would have defeated Bris by a country mile.
IMHO, of course.
Spencer wasn't at his best on Saturday, but speed of ball from the ruck is only partly down to the 9, the other element is how well the forwards are clearing out the opposition to give nice clean ball for the scrum half to work with. Bristol successfully turned a lot of our rucks into absolute messes, which then meant Spencer had to go digging for the ball and allowed the Bear's defensive line to get set.
If you contrast that to Bristol's rucks, they were so lightning fast that by the time Bath's forwards made it to one breakdown the ball had already been played away, and they were then out of position to assist with the subsequent breakdown. It almost ended up being a positive feedback loop where each ruck became faster and faster because Bath's defence had less and less time to reorganise and disrupt the flow.
Quote:Ali1969
Bears were outstanding and fully deserved to win
We have to park this one and move on
Agreed Ali on both counts.
However, as well as annoyance at such a blatant obstruction being overlooked (when as you say most of Bath's tries were forensically examined) I think there is a general point.
Obstructions like this are IMO a blight on the game, indulged by official laziness and a spurious belief that they are somehow "clever" and within the spirit of the game, which they are not.
A dangerous habit of refereeing by fashion has crept in over the past 20 years. Some of that is harmless, if irritating, but for about 10 years at the start of this century officials ignored the majority of high tackles -including swinging arm blows- and look where that has led.
PG
The reason the Bears ruck speed was so high and ours so slow are both in part due to the things Bears were allowed to get away with.
On their ball the continually came in from the side not through the gate and went off their feet. When the clearing player is lying at 90 degrees to the touch line it is obvious they haven't come in from through the gate.
As said by a previous poster Bears continually put hand past the ball or stood in the ay with their hands in the air without being penalised.
We should have reacted to the way it was being refereed but it felt on Sat that Ridley decided early Bears were winning the breakdown battle and had we tried the same things would have been penalised.
I was in the stand and you could see the offside runner in from of the ball carrier on almost every strike move. what I didn't see was the direct impact of taking players out for 3 of their tries.
On their ball the continually came in from the side not through the gate and went off their feet. When the clearing player is lying at 90 degrees to the touch line it is obvious they haven't come in from through the gate.
As said by a previous poster Bears continually put hand past the ball or stood in the ay with their hands in the air without being penalised.
We should have reacted to the way it was being refereed but it felt on Sat that Ridley decided early Bears were winning the breakdown battle and had we tried the same things would have been penalised.
I was in the stand and you could see the offside runner in from of the ball carrier on almost every strike move. what I didn't see was the direct impact of taking players out for 3 of their tries.
Quote:Murty7
The reason the Bears ruck speed was so high and ours so slow are both in part due to the things Bears were allowed to get away with.
On their ball the continually came in from the side not through the gate and went off their feet. When the clearing player is lying at 90 degrees to the touch line it is obvious they haven't come in from through the gate.
As said by a previous poster Bears continually put hand past the ball or stood in the ay with their hands in the air without being penalised.
We should have reacted to the way it was being refereed but it felt on Sat that Ridley decided early Bears were winning the breakdown battle and had we tried the same things would have been penalised.
I was in the stand and you could see the offside runner in from of the ball carrier on almost every strike move. what I didn't see was the direct impact of taking players out for 3 of their tries.
And with the other eye open . . . Seriously, both sets of fans will say the same, and we (Bears) were screaming at the TV at times with Bath players clearing out rucks from the side. Happens in every game from all teams. As for players running dummy lines, I guess you are suggesting that if a runner does not receive the pass he should stop and retreat and then go again? The Laws state that the obstruction must be deliberate and running a straight line does not meet that criteria
Quote:Hawksburn
I may well be alone in my opinion, but I believe that whereas Spencer has been an outstanding acquisition, scoring some unbelievable tries, he is most certainly now much slower in his distribution from the scrum and rucks.
You're absolutely right ....
... you are alone in that opinion
Thank you guys for all the post match entertainment. (Above)
Bristol will be playing you away again in May ‘25 . Hopefully we’re both still be in contention for a top four spot then, in which case should make for another entertaining game.
Bristol will be playing you away again in May ‘25 . Hopefully we’re both still be in contention for a top four spot then, in which case should make for another entertaining game.
There has been much deliberation over whether the referee contributed significantly to a 10 point home defeat. It may well be, though, that we underestimated Bristol & they could be major contenders for a top 4 slot this season. We, on the other hand, have to prove that this was no more than a blip when we face Gloucester. Much will be revealed next weekend.
TBH I don’t think IMHO that Spencer has been at is very best against Leicester or Bristol and yes much of that is about how the Forwards present the ball.
I wonder if having been away for most of the week whether Spencer will get benched for Kingsholm and Schroeder or Carr-Smith will start.
I assume Carr-Smith is ‘travelling’ reserve so not getting any regular game time?
Bring back the Monday A league as an U23 competition!
I wonder if having been away for most of the week whether Spencer will get benched for Kingsholm and Schroeder or Carr-Smith will start.
I assume Carr-Smith is ‘travelling’ reserve so not getting any regular game time?
Bring back the Monday A league as an U23 competition!
Quote:Well, because it's largely nonsense. 🤷P G Tips
I am surprised no-one else has commented on boozeboozebooze's post above.
Quote:Bath Hammer
There has been much deliberation over whether the referee contributed significantly to a 10 point home defeat. It may well be, though, that we underestimated Bristol & they could be major contenders for a top 4 slot this season. We, on the other hand, have to prove that this was no more than a blip when we face Gloucester. Much will be revealed next weekend.
Exactly this, Gloucester in current form will be relishing the fact they can emulate Bears performance, this is not the game to put things right but saying that in this league it would be a real challenge anywhere !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:Bath Hammer
It may well be, though, that we underestimated Bristol & they could be major contenders for a top 4 slot this season.
This. I hate to say it but I think we didn't show the required level of respect for Briz. We had an odd selection to start with and I think that transferred into our attitude on the pitch. I can see the argument for rotating players, but if we accept that we have to accept the odd result like that. What we probably should work on is selecting a rotated team and still having the right attitude. I can recall a game years ago, sarries I think, they rotated their squad, possibly for a cup game or something. We (on here) were guilty of licking our lips a bit, as we were putting our a strong team, and their second team came out and played like their first and thumped us.
As I think almost everyone has said Bristol played really well, that's why they won.
As for CR, early on he made a decision, a fairly innocuous one I think, and I thought we're in for a difficult day, that more or less continued. Small margins do make big differences, but a good team manages that situation and we didn't. The hands beyond the ball and blocking is just stuff that happens in games, if the refs not pinging it that day then you need work with that.
Quote:Rinkadink
Well, because it's largely nonsense. 🤷
It's this kind of insightful analysis that really makes the forum what it is...
Quote:Dan Wiley
I can see the argument for rotating players
I agree rotation is necessary, but never for home games.
Quote:Dan Wiley
The hands beyond the ball and blocking is just stuff that happens in games, if the refs not pinging it that day then you need work with that.
Totally agree, on Saturday Bath never adapted to what was happening. Another symptom of the lacklustre attitude from the players.
Quote:Dan Wiley
[
The hands beyond the ball and blocking is just stuff that happens in games, if the refs not pinging it that day then you need work with that.
Agreed. But what do you propose they should have done?
PG
Quote:Cheat better.P G Tips
Agreed. But what do you propose they should have done?
Cheating is the oldest, and one of the proudest traditions of rugby*. We were hugely out-cheated by Bristol on Saturday; genuinely well-done them.
*For anyone upset by this claim, just remember that rugby was invented by some spoiled schoolboy cheating at football.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:09:11:02:52 by Which Tyler.
I don't think its so much about what you do about it, but the approach of the squad. Some teams don't get the decisions from the ref that suit their game plan* and yet the win is still never in doubt. I suspect you can't be a categorical as that, but great teams seem to come through these games where they aren't quiet getting those decisions.
Realizing that's not very helpful, I guess people who know more about rugby do know what to do there, if the refs letting them get away with their jackaling style perhaps don't carry into close quatre contact where there will be someone on hand to jackal, but that will get above my pay grade pretty quick. What I really think a great team probably does is not let it rattle them and not let it change their game plan and focus. Know that what they are doing is good and will come through eventually regardless of these decisions. Most of all not let one error lead to another. I don't think we did that against Briz.
* At the end of the day that's what we're talking about here. We did illegal stuff, Briz did illegal stuff, the stuff Briz did fell on the right side of the ref and the stuff we did was either less effective or didn't make the ref happy.
Realizing that's not very helpful, I guess people who know more about rugby do know what to do there, if the refs letting them get away with their jackaling style perhaps don't carry into close quatre contact where there will be someone on hand to jackal, but that will get above my pay grade pretty quick. What I really think a great team probably does is not let it rattle them and not let it change their game plan and focus. Know that what they are doing is good and will come through eventually regardless of these decisions. Most of all not let one error lead to another. I don't think we did that against Briz.
* At the end of the day that's what we're talking about here. We did illegal stuff, Briz did illegal stuff, the stuff Briz did fell on the right side of the ref and the stuff we did was either less effective or didn't make the ref happy.
I guess there's also some confirmation bias at play here. The commentators saw (I didn't first time) the Briz players hands going beyond the ball and it effectively stopped our attack. Are we saying our hands never went beyond the ball?
We tend to be rather blind to the things our team is doing.
We tend to be rather blind to the things our team is doing.
Quote:Yeah, the unchecked flaming for calling a spade a spade is pure quality. Cult behaviour?boozeboozeboozeQuote:Rinkadink
Well, because it's largely nonsense. 🤷
It's this kind of insightful analysis that really makes the forum what it is...
Quote:That's what you mypoic conspiracy theorists are doing in trawling through footage in an attempt to taint or illegitimise the officials and the Bristol win. Please direct that line of thinking to yourselves, we aren't the ones looking at photos and videos going "THIS PROVES IT WAS FLAT ALL ALONG". That's you. Let's easily debunk the first claim, it is quite clear cut.P G Tips
And the earth is flat.
PG
Bristol player #1 in possession of ball runs (off pass from base), Bristol player #2 legally runs a short line offering a legitimate passing option. Bristol player #3 runs the second legitimate, deep passing back option. B*th defender A marks up Bristol #1. B*th defender B missreads the option play and effects a clearly wrapped tackle to the legs of Bristol #2 who is not in possession of the ball after Bristol #1 passes to Bristol #3. Essentially it is this;
[youtube.com]
World Rugby Laws
9. Foul Play
Dangerous Play
14. A player must not tackle an opponent who is not in possession of the ball.
What the clip in question inarguably shows is that B*th defender B commits a foul play offence and as proper analysis shows it should have been a penalty awarded to Bristol. If anyone is obstructed it is Bristol #2 who is illegally taken to ground by B*th defender B, stopping Bristol #2 supporting or taking further part in any play.
I'm not going to go through basic attacking shapes and moves in modern rugby, you can do your own homework.
The point Dan is that sealingboff renders the balll uncontestable.
There is nothing that can legally be done to change that.
PG
There is nothing that can legally be done to change that.
PG
Can we stop feeding the Bristolians? Almost everyone has said well done them, we've had the usual whine about the ref common to all losing team forums, I'm aware I've a tendency to bang on about things, but at least I do it on my own forum, they are starting to get a bit boring now and they can do that at their own place.
Quote:PG
The point Dan is that sealingboff renders the balll uncontestable.
For some baffling reason attackers sealing off is almost universally allowed in pro rugby. If we're not doing it we'd be fairly foolish.
The incident I'm thinking of the defenders hands went beyond the ball for a fraction of a second then onto the ball. Some refs pick up on that, others don't. It doesn't make the ball unplayable, a decent clear out will still get their hands off the ball, but it does give them an advantage. Are you saying we didn't evert put our hands beyond the ball and get away with it? Or that we did nothing illegal to gain an advantage at the breakdown? I find that unlikely.
Quote:Dan Wiley
Can we stop feeding the Bristolians? Almost everyone has said well done them, we've had the usual whine about the ref common to all losing team forums, I'm aware I've a tendency to bang on about things, but at least I do it on my own forum, they are starting to get a bit boring now and they can do that at their own place.
It seems that what started as a genuine, non-accusatory discussion about how Bath's defence was so easily cut through is now being interpreted by some as "Bath fans calling for game to be replayed due to litany of egregious officiating errors"...
Quote:Dan WileyQuote:PG
The point Dan is that sealingboff renders the balll uncontestable.
For some baffling reason attackers sealing off is almost universally allowed in pro rugby. If we're not doing it we'd be fairly foolish.
The incident I'm thinking of the defenders hands went beyond the ball for a fraction of a second then onto the ball. Some refs pick up on that, others don't. It doesn't make the ball unplayable, a decent clear out will still get their hands off the ball, but it does give them an advantage. Are you saying we didn't evert put our hands beyond the ball and get away with it? Or that we did nothing illegal to gain an advantage at the breakdown? I find that unlikely.
There were others Dan- many - where the player with hands on the ground was on hands and knees, others where they were lying prone. The only way to remove them legally would have been to pick them up- which takes too long.
It's not possible to get under a prone player to move them by rucking.
As you say "For some baffling reason" attackers sealing off is allowed. That is the core of the complaint - why should it be?
Anyway, best to leave the matter now.
PG
Quote:boozeboozebooze
It seems that what started as a genuine, non-accusatory discussion about how Bath's defence was so easily cut through is now being interpreted by some as "Bath fans calling for game to be replayed due to litany of egregious officiating errors"...
It's this kind of insightful rebuttal that really makes the forum what it is.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:09:12:19:24 by Rinkadink.
Quote:boozeboozebooze
It seems that what started as a genuine, non-accusatory discussion about how Bath's defence was so easily cut through is now being interpreted by some as "Bath fans calling for game to be replayed due to litany of egregious officiating errors"...
I think you're just being trolled if I'm honest. If there was a genuinely an interesting point of law in what you were discussing I'd be the first to be on it, as it was it sounded like opposing fans winding each other up.
The sealling off in attack for instance, definitely against the laws, there's not ruck at this point so no obligation to even endeavor to stay on you feet, however:
13.4 Players on their feet and without the ball must not fall on or over players on the ground who have the ball or who are near it.
Perhaps they aren't seen as falling or as they've gone over the player on the ground and then fallen perhaps its not seen as falling over/on the player? Even then:
13.3 A player on the ground in the field of play, without the ball is out of the game and must:
a Allow opponents who are not on the ground to play or gain possession of the ball.
The purpose of doing this it literally to stop a defender getting the ball so...
I'm really only baffled by this in terms of the laws, the reality is in allowing players to do this we speed up rucks greatly and in theory make for more attacking game. I guess this whole area is a bit of a mess, if I did make contact with a defender as I went over the ball, and so make a ruck, and then naturally went to ground I would still be preventing a defender going for the ball. Providing I'm endeavoring to stay on my feet that's legal. In the grey area between the written laws and the game, why should I be denied that opportunity to secure the ball simply because there's no opposition player there to create the ruck?
On the other hand, there's few clear out techniques that don't involve a high risk of going off your feet and in doing so falling foul of 13.3a.
In either case if we implement that law we penalize at pretty much every ruck.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:10:10:21:19:37 by Old Bath Tub.
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