Bath
Bath v Ulster - Our Friends in the North
Thomas du Toit
By Rokobilly
December 6 2023
The first European games following a World Cup always come with an added element of interest. Stars old and new appear in different shirts in strange places; a new pecking order yet to be determined.
Over in Belfast, the new star in the December lights is Steven Kitshoff. He announced his arrival of the bench last week with a scrum penalty that was acclaimed loudly by the Kingsbarn faithful.
Ultimately it was too little too late for Ulster who rallied to claim two bonus points but suffered a painful home defeat to Edinburgh, a week after being comprehensively beaten in Glasgow.
They still sit in the top half of the URC with 4 wins from 7 but those back to back losses will be a cause for concern. Their sole away win this term coming at Zebre back in October.
Coach Dan McFarland (a man I'd welcome to The Rec should JVG eventually depart after multiple Premiership gold medals) has lamented inconsistency in available personnel and a lack of intensity in training. He had tough words for the media after the Edinburgh game and one suspects there will have been no lack of clarity in his messages this week.
The team McFarland picks for Saturday will almost certainly include Kitshoff - whose reunion with his former bomb squad partner Thomas du Toit is one of the more mouthwatering match ups - but also talented names such as Stockdale, Baloucoune, McClosky, Cooney and Burns ( B ) Will Addison and Iain Henderson are also in the selection mix following injury.
Many of those names featured back in late 2019 when we last played Ulster at home. You may recall Stockdale brilliantly intercepting a Zach Mercer pass to Roko that would have snatched victory for Bath in the dying seconds at The Rec. We followed that game up with another defeat in the return fixture and so ended another European campaign.
To say we've not fared very well in Europe in recent times would be generous. Our last European win was against London Irish in the Quarter Final of the Challenge Cup back in April 2021. Our last Champions Cup win came at home to Wasps in a dead rubber in early 2019. You have to go back six years for a competitive campaign. Back in 2017-18 we won four of our six pool games, but even then came third in the group behind Scarlets and Toulon.
Saturday, with a team full of confidence, offers a chance of redemption. Whilst the Premiership is undoubtedly the priority this year, Europe should be about pride; making a statement that Bath are back and worthy of a place at top table. Certainly JVG, with his Munster experience and deep knowledge of the game's history, will want us to win back some respect.
Incredibly the starting Front 5 could be the same as 2019 (Obano, Dunn, Stuart, McNally, Ewels). Although I suspect TDT and Stooke (a replacement that day) will force their way into the XV.
Another 2019 starter, Sam Underhill, should be up for the fight too. MotM last week against Exeter, I hope he watched how Jamie Ritchie bossed the breakdown for Edinburgh last weekend. He should be licking his lips at the prospect of more turnover ball. In the backs, Lawrence should come in for Ojomoh - and possibly TDG for Gallagher.
This year's Champions Cup format has changed again. They seem to tinker with it annually to no great improvement.
Four pool of six teams - two from each of the Prem, URC and Top 14. You play the four teams not from your league. Two at home and two away. Following the pool stage, the top four teams from each pool advance to the Round of 16 knockout. 5th joins the latter stages of the Challenge Cup and 6th are out.
This is our best chance in years to win some matches and bring knockout Champions League Rugby back to The Rec.
COYB.
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Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 06/12/2023 09:27
06/12/2023 09:27
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:14:09:49:18 by CoochieCoo.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:14:09:49:18 by CoochieCoo.
Didn't know that about the pool structure
I really don't like it
From a fan's perspective it is baffling to understand
From a player/coach perspective it means you have less control over your destiny if you lose either or both of the first two games.
With the original format if you lost two away games you still had a chance of qualifying with the other 4 matches against teams in your group and as a fan it was clear where your club was in chances of qualifying
I really don't like it
From a fan's perspective it is baffling to understand
From a player/coach perspective it means you have less control over your destiny if you lose either or both of the first two games.
With the original format if you lost two away games you still had a chance of qualifying with the other 4 matches against teams in your group and as a fan it was clear where your club was in chances of qualifying
Hello!
Ulster fan here - I come in peace. Live this side of the water so just about talked people into spending £72 per ticket (i hope most games for you are cheaper ...) and heading that way on Saturday!
Any decent recommendations on where to park and grab a drink in the markets etc beforehand is appreciated!
As for the game... I think you'll have too much for us this weekend. Home advantage being the major swing. Our team hasn't fired properly yet this year and so many rotating injuries we've not had much flow. If your back row fires and Lawrence continues his form then you'll win by ~10. Happy to try and give a semi informed and biased opinion on the Ulster team too if needed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:06:18:43:29 by CoochieCoo.
Ulster fan here - I come in peace. Live this side of the water so just about talked people into spending £72 per ticket (i hope most games for you are cheaper ...) and heading that way on Saturday!
Any decent recommendations on where to park and grab a drink in the markets etc beforehand is appreciated!
As for the game... I think you'll have too much for us this weekend. Home advantage being the major swing. Our team hasn't fired properly yet this year and so many rotating injuries we've not had much flow. If your back row fires and Lawrence continues his form then you'll win by ~10. Happy to try and give a semi informed and biased opinion on the Ulster team too if needed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:06:18:43:29 by CoochieCoo.
The individual ticket prices are pretty shocking, but we seem to sell out, so it's tough to argue. Welcome over - here's our guide to pubs etc.:
[cardiffcurry.co.uk]
I would say avoid driving if you can! The City is very walkable.
[cardiffcurry.co.uk]
I would say avoid driving if you can! The City is very walkable.
Quote:hasta
The individual ticket prices are pretty shocking, but we seem to sell out, so it's tough to argue. Welcome over - here's our guide to pubs etc.:
[cardiffcurry.co.uk]
I would say avoid driving if you can! The City is very walkable.
Cardiff Curry?
Use Train or P&R, don't even think about driving into the city as the Xmas market is still on.
Quote:hasta
...don't ask me why it's hosted there lol
Can be hosted anywhere but Sportsnetwork don't make access to pdf files easy it seems! Its a free downloadable e-book.
PLUS you get a guide to curry types and restaurants in Cardiff!
If we follow JVG policy (which has worked) then I Would expect to go big for this game with all the big names in there and a stacked bench. Then go with rotated team maybe seeing Bayliss around for the Cardiff trip.
Real chance to progress here Europe not been a success before but the games infront of us are winnable.
Real chance to progress here Europe not been a success before but the games infront of us are winnable.
Quote:hasta
The individual ticket prices are pretty shocking, but we seem to sell out, so it's tough to argue. Welcome over - here's our guide to pubs etc.:
[cardiffcurry.co.uk]
I would say avoid driving if you can! The City is very walkable.
The link is in the About COML navigation bar above in the desktop version and in the Navigation Link in the Mobile version.
Nice write up Roko.
Ulster have had much the better of our Euro encounters over the years.
Let’s hope we can catch them red handed this time!
PG
Ulster have had much the better of our Euro encounters over the years.
Let’s hope we can catch them red handed this time!
PG
Nice write up Roko.
Ulster have had much the better of our Euro encounters over the years.
Let’s hope we can catch them red handed this time!
PG
Ulster have had much the better of our Euro encounters over the years.
Let’s hope we can catch them red handed this time!
PG
Quote:HK890
If we follow JVG policy (which has worked) then I Would expect to go big for this game with all the big names in there and a stacked bench. Then go with rotated team maybe seeing Bayliss around for the Cardiff trip.
Real chance to progress here Europe not been a success before but the games infront of us are winnable.
Imagine we will be pretty loaded this week as you say, then rotate a fair few for Cardiff and be close to 'best' 23 again for quins?
Would be great to see bayliss in the squad for Cardiff away.
Quote:P G Tips
Nice write up Roko.
Ulster have had much the better of our Euro encounters over the years.
Let’s hope we can catch them red handed this time!
PG
I see what you did there
Quote:charlieboaQuote:HK890
If we follow JVG policy (which has worked) then I Would expect to go big for this game with all the big names in there and a stacked bench. Then go with rotated team maybe seeing Bayliss around for the Cardiff trip.
Real chance to progress here Europe not been a success before but the games infront of us are winnable.
Imagine we will be pretty loaded this week as you say, then rotate a fair few for Cardiff and be close to 'best' 23 again for quins?
Would be great to see bayliss in the squad for Cardiff away.
Rubber pitch so would suit Bayliss, Cardiff have lost a lot this season but only by a few points each game. No one will fancy tackling Mason Grady on the wing! GHW might feature against us as well!
David Ayres Director of Marketing posted this on LinkedIn
Quote:We're back in the Champions Cup and to celebrate we are enhancing the matchday experience for over 14,000 fans by launching a city-wide campaign.
Pre-match entertainment, offers and discounts at locals bars and retailers plus an official after party at Walcot House.
Next weekend, let's come together and Paint The Town Red!
Thanks for Ludo Sports Bar, Walcot House Bath, Castore, Heavenly Desserts UK, James Hughes @ Loake, Tapas Revolution and others to make this happen.
Look out for a few surprises as well.
Quote:CoochieCoo
David Ayres Director of Marketing posted this on LinkedInQuote:We're back in the Champions Cup and to celebrate we are enhancing the matchday experience for over 14,000 fans by launching a city-wide campaign.
Pre-match entertainment, offers and discounts at locals bars and retailers plus an official after party at Walcot House.
Next weekend, let's come together and Paint The Town Red!
Thanks for Ludo Sports Bar, Walcot House Bath, Castore, Heavenly Desserts UK, James Hughes @ Loake, Tapas Revolution and others to make this happen.
Look out for a few surprises as well.
Great to see! Well done all involved
Weekly wildly inaccurate guess at a matchday squad.
Tdg, coko, lawrence, cam, muir, finn, spencer, beno, dunn, du toit, stooke, ewels, reid, underhill, barbeary
Bench: schoeman, annett, stuart, gjvv, coetzee, TCS, bailey, harris
Tdg, coko, lawrence, cam, muir, finn, spencer, beno, dunn, du toit, stooke, ewels, reid, underhill, barbeary
Bench: schoeman, annett, stuart, gjvv, coetzee, TCS, bailey, harris
Quote:hasta
The individual ticket prices are pretty shocking, but we seem to sell out, so it's tough to argue. Welcome over - here's our guide to pubs etc.:
[cardiffcurry.co.uk]
I would say avoid driving if you can! The City is very walkable.
Cheers! With this and other recommendations we'll go via one of the P&Rs and a bit of a Xmas market cruise for food and drink.
As it stands, would expect the Ulster team to be something like:
Kitshoff, Herring, M Moore, Henderson, Treadwell, Ewers, M Rea, Timoney, Doak, Burns, Stockdale, McCloskey, Hume, Baloucoune, S Moore
Subs - Stewart, Warwick, O'Toole, O’Connor, Sheridan, Cooney, Flannery, Lowry
If you are using the Park and Rides allow plenty of time. GWR are on strike today and their website says their services on Friday and Saturday may be affected. This might put some visitors to Bath off going by train with the knock on affect of making the p and r's even busier. Good luck and enjoy your visit.
Lighting up Pulteney Bridge red apparently, according to Somerset Live. Nice gesture to welcome Ulster although apparently it's to plug our RED European shirt. Sorry, just about OK for a training kit, but a step too far to play in it imho.
A bit tenuous I reckon Hemington! We've got the 3 traditional colours to play with. They've managed to introduce yellow shirts - I have one when Blackthorn sponsored us before they managed, in one change of recipe, to pretty much destroy the brand. Each to their own but red...not for me thanks.
Not so much if you go back to the origins remember these guys Tom? The Zouaves.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
In total agreement. Might be worth buying one simply because in 20 years' time they'll be as rare as those European shirts with Channel 5 on cos the French TV companies didn't allow shirts plugging booze, or have I got that bit wrong? Sorry sw, photo rings a distinct bell but the link, if there is one, with Bath is a blank!
Quote:TomReagan
Sorry sw, photo rings a distinct bell but the link, if there is one, with Bath is a blank!
"For most of its history the club would be known as Bath Football Club. The first name of the club seems to have been Bath Zouaves though why this name was adopted is not certain. It is known that the Zouaves were an elite light infantry corps of the French army drawn from the Berber tribes of Algeria.17 May 2015" Source
Thanks for the revision session sw! The Channel 5 shirts...probably because the cup was sponsored by Heineken. Seemed odd the French would take issue with plugging alcohol. Anyway, very rarely see those shirts now; probably worth a bit if the embroidery is still intact.
Quote:shipwrecked
Not so much if you go back to the origins remember these guys Tom? The Zouaves.
I guess they were only allowed to wear those trousers if playing on an artificial pitch...
It's the footwear that intrigued me. Might sound a tad sad but I've just been reading about the history of the gaiter/leggings in conflict; very interesting! Seems some soldiers still wore them in WW1. Very common in the US Civil War but largely uncomfortable and impractical so became more commonly reserved for ceremonial use. In the picture it looks like they're marching in Chinese slippers! The red pantaloons look very dashing, but still not acceptable as the colour of a Bath Rugby shirt (Cos I'd hate to go off topic twice in one day).
Quote:TomReagan
It's the footwear that intrigued me.
They are traditional Moroccan Babouche Slippers Tom made from leather. Been around for ages, the heel can fold down or up for comfort.
My dad will be getting a pair for Xmas! Right, another thread I'll stay off.
Don't go, I've sent you a PM to avoid going of topic.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
"The new format for the tournament induced by Covid-19 issues was a disaster and it hasn’t improved much since, at a time when boardroom discussions at World Rugby are looking at a new world order, when it comes to the fixture and tournament schedule.
The traditional format of small pools, home and away legs, gave us more memorable moments than the current structure, particularly over the last three seasons which have been a lacklustre triage for the knockout stages."
Gordon D'Arcy in the Irish Times.
Couldn't agree more. Time was The Heiney was absolutely required viewing all weekend. Now... I'll tune in for the semis and the final. Definitely if we're in them, maybe if we're not. I'm a 5-star rugby tragic. If this is how I feel about the comp, then we really do have a problem.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
The traditional format of small pools, home and away legs, gave us more memorable moments than the current structure, particularly over the last three seasons which have been a lacklustre triage for the knockout stages."
Gordon D'Arcy in the Irish Times.
Couldn't agree more. Time was The Heiney was absolutely required viewing all weekend. Now... I'll tune in for the semis and the final. Definitely if we're in them, maybe if we're not. I'm a 5-star rugby tragic. If this is how I feel about the comp, then we really do have a problem.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
In case some might consider that the discussion about Berbers a distraction from this thread it actually is not.
"The similarity in DNA between some Irish people and the Berber people can be attributed to historical migrations and interactions. The genetic connection is believed to stem from the migration of early farmers from the Middle East to Europe around 8,000 years ago. These farmers are thought to have carried a genetic marker that is also found in present-day Berber populations in North Africa. Over time, this genetic marker became part of the gene pool in Ireland through subsequent migrations and interactions. This genetic connection highlights the complex and interconnected nature of human history and population movements."
A little more from the Irish Times
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
"The similarity in DNA between some Irish people and the Berber people can be attributed to historical migrations and interactions. The genetic connection is believed to stem from the migration of early farmers from the Middle East to Europe around 8,000 years ago. These farmers are thought to have carried a genetic marker that is also found in present-day Berber populations in North Africa. Over time, this genetic marker became part of the gene pool in Ireland through subsequent migrations and interactions. This genetic connection highlights the complex and interconnected nature of human history and population movements."
A little more from the Irish Times
Quote:shipwrecked
In case some might consider that the discussion about Berbers a distraction from this thread it actually is not.
"The similarity in DNA between some Irish people and the Berber people can be attributed to historical migrations and interactions. The genetic connection is believed to stem from the migration of early farmers from the Middle East to Europe around 8,000 years ago. These farmers are thought to have carried a genetic marker that is also found in present-day Berber populations in North Africa. Over time, this genetic marker became part of the gene pool in Ireland through subsequent migrations and interactions. This genetic connection highlights the complex and interconnected nature of human history and population movements."
A little more from the Irish Times
Really going off-track but interesting it doesn't mention the other 'Barbary-Irish' interactions of the 16th-17th century...
Quote:The BearQuote:shipwrecked
In case some might consider that the discussion about Berbers a distraction from this thread it actually is not.
"The similarity in DNA between some Irish people and the Berber people can be attributed to historical migrations and interactions. The genetic connection is believed to stem from the migration of early farmers from the Middle East to Europe around 8,000 years ago. These farmers are thought to have carried a genetic marker that is also found in present-day Berber populations in North Africa. Over time, this genetic marker became part of the gene pool in Ireland through subsequent migrations and interactions. This genetic connection highlights the complex and interconnected nature of human history and population movements."
A little more from the Irish Times
Really going off-track but interesting it doesn't mention the other 'Barbary-Irish' interactions of the 16th-17th century...
No, it doesn't you are right, raided the Irish coast for its much treasured silver I believe.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:The BearQuote:shipwrecked
In case some might consider that the discussion about Berbers a distraction from this thread it actually is not.
"The similarity in DNA between some Irish people and the Berber people can be attributed to historical migrations and interactions. The genetic connection is believed to stem from the migration of early farmers from the Middle East to Europe around 8,000 years ago. These farmers are thought to have carried a genetic marker that is also found in present-day Berber populations in North Africa. Over time, this genetic marker became part of the gene pool in Ireland through subsequent migrations and interactions. This genetic connection highlights the complex and interconnected nature of human history and population movements."
A little more from the Irish Times
Really going off-track but interesting it doesn't mention the other 'Barbary-Irish' interactions of the 16th-17th century...
No, it doesn't you are right, raided the Irish coast for its much treasured silver I believe.
Its (much treasured?) people also...
To be honest I’m more concerned about the “Barbeary - Irish” interactions tomorrow (assuming he’s playing of course!)
He is!
Team Up:
Bath Rugby team news
Bath Rugby: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Elliott Stooke, 5 Charlie Ewels (150), 6 Miles Reid, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Alfie Barbeary, 9 Ben Spencer (c), 10 Finn Russell, 11 Will Muir, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 15 Matt Gallagher
Replacements: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 GJ van Velze, 20 Jaco Coetzee, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22, Orlando Bailey, 23 Will Butt
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Team Up:
Bath Rugby team news
Bath Rugby: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Elliott Stooke, 5 Charlie Ewels (150), 6 Miles Reid, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Alfie Barbeary, 9 Ben Spencer (c), 10 Finn Russell, 11 Will Muir, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 15 Matt Gallagher
Replacements: 16 Niall Annett, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 GJ van Velze, 20 Jaco Coetzee, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22, Orlando Bailey, 23 Will Butt
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
And the Ulster men:
(15-9) Stewart Moore, Rob Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, Nathan Doak;
(1-8) Steven Kitshoff, Tom Stewart, Tom O’Toole, Alan O’Connor, Iain Henderson (C), Dave Ewers, Nick Timoney, James McNabney.
Replacements: Rob Herring, Andrew Warwick, Marty Moore, Kieran Treadwell, Matty Rea, John Cooney, Jake Flannery, Mike Lowry.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
(15-9) Stewart Moore, Rob Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Billy Burns, Nathan Doak;
(1-8) Steven Kitshoff, Tom Stewart, Tom O’Toole, Alan O’Connor, Iain Henderson (C), Dave Ewers, Nick Timoney, James McNabney.
Replacements: Rob Herring, Andrew Warwick, Marty Moore, Kieran Treadwell, Matty Rea, John Cooney, Jake Flannery, Mike Lowry.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
That's our strongest team and bench isn't it?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I'd have Hill at 6 and Roux in the squad, but that's pretty much as strong as it gets.
Big well done to the S&C/medical team and JvG for the way he's managing the squad. That's 14 of the 15 we fielded v Exe, with Lawrence a rotation in. Mojo must be gutted, but that's what you get when playing well and players are fit and fighting for shirts. Well done to all involved on that front.
No excuses and a great test of our progress. Our top table Euro form has been an embarrassment in recent years. Like so many things this season, feels like we're well set to put that right.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Big well done to the S&C/medical team and JvG for the way he's managing the squad. That's 14 of the 15 we fielded v Exe, with Lawrence a rotation in. Mojo must be gutted, but that's what you get when playing well and players are fit and fighting for shirts. Well done to all involved on that front.
No excuses and a great test of our progress. Our top table Euro form has been an embarrassment in recent years. Like so many things this season, feels like we're well set to put that right.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Surprised at Stuart starting ahead of TdT and will be interesting to see how he goes against Kitshoff!
Quote:tigersimon
Surprised at Stuart starting ahead of TdT and will be interesting to see how he goes against Kitshoff!
Same here but imagine tdt will be on by the 50 min mark (on one side of the scrum or the other!)
Quote:shipwrecked
That's our strongest team and bench isn't it?
Of the players available I would say so.
Some good players who are available as far as I know and not in the 23- mcnally, richards, cloete, mojo, tdg.
And some v good players not available- roux, hill, bayliss, rmc.
Exciting thing is you could make 15 changes for Cardiff and I wouldn't write our chances off.
Harris, butt, henessey, mojo, tdg, bailey, TCS, schoeman, annett, tdt, mcnally, gj vv, richards, cloete , coetzee.
Bench: beno, dunn, stuart, stooke, barbeary, spencer , finn, gallagher
In reality I hope we make 8 or 9 changes and that gives us a real chance of sneaking an away win.
If we lose tomorrow may make even more wholesale changes and chances of progress after a home loss not far off zero!
Quote:of those fit, then pretty much.shipwrecked
That's our strongest team and bench isn't it?
Debate to be had on Ojomoh vs Butt (I'd go Ojomoh, but Butt does have more sheer power) and TDG vs Gallagher (very close for me, but JvG seems to prefer Gallagher)
RAEBURN SHIELD
What a nice feeling to be discussing not even being able to sqeeze some brilliant players into the 23...wow what a turnaround from previous seasons. Chapeau to those responsible for this (Management, S&C and medics).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
A lot could be said about that team but I will stick to one thing, seeing Sam Underhill as a regular starter is a highlight for me. I was getting concerned about his health last season, long may he continue as he is. I don't think he played much at the RWC, maybe 1 game? Perhaps all the training without too much contact has done him good.
Quote:BathMatt53
What a nice feeling to be discussing not even being able to sqeeze some brilliant players into the 23...wow what a turnaround from previous seasons. Chapeau to those responsible for this (Management, S&C and medics).
Absolutely- we normally come into these euro games against Irish teams with about 20 injuries whilst they have been managed perfectly for months in advance.
Usually have match ups like cordwell vs furlong.
Really refreshing to go into a game with hope!
Strong winds in the weather forecast for tomorrow, that’s going to make kicking tricky.
Yeah, we're taking it seriously. Hope we get the result but at least I'm not going into thinking I hope we can do an England in the semi finals and 'keep it close'.
Agree with the comments above.
I might be making it up but I sort of remember/feel that we had circa 25 injuries this time last year..........alright alright say 20
I might be making it up but I sort of remember/feel that we had circa 25 injuries this time last year..........alright alright say 20
Quote:Quite ironic really, as we flat out couldn't get Channel 5 signal in my part of Batheaston at the time and assume it was the same for much of the city?!TomReagan
In total agreement. Might be worth buying one simply because in 20 years' time they'll be as rare as those European shirts with Channel 5 on cos the French TV companies didn't allow shirts plugging booze, or have I got that bit wrong? Sorry sw, photo rings a distinct bell but the link, if there is one, with Bath is a blank!
The Red is very odd and the level of push the club are giving it is very strange to me
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:15:11:09 by A.M 180.
Hate to say it but Dunn’s lineout throwing is increasingly becoming an issue
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Can we afford to miss those?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:Odd call given the windshipwrecked
Can we afford to miss those?
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
I actually though Spencer kicked that it was so long! Absolute class.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Shades of the Exeter game - we look good, the better team, but a little bit loose and some bad luck and we concede.
Frustrating but still, nice to feel confident that we'll take control of this one sooner or later.
Frustrating but still, nice to feel confident that we'll take control of this one sooner or later.
Absolutely horrible defending
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
A knock on and two huge forward passes by Ulster for their second try - utter joke.
Plus Illegal turnover for their first try .
Ulster allowed to interfere at every breakdown.
Frustrating.
Plus Illegal turnover for their first try .
Ulster allowed to interfere at every breakdown.
Frustrating.
Quote:Dorset Boy
A knock on and two huge forward passes by Ulster for their second try - utter joke.
Plus Illegal turnover for their first try .
Ulster allowed to interfere at every breakdown.
Frustrating.
Yeah they’re constantly being slow to move away at rucks when ref tells them, you would hope he would start threatening them with yellow cards at some point.
Won’t count on it, my opinion on French refs is pretty low
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
How that second try was allowed to stand, I honestly don't understand.
What was the TMO looking at.
What was the TMO looking at.
It looked like a marginal forward pass for the second try, I couldn't see anything 'huge.'
Try was multiple borderline forward passes- no issue with tmo not overriding them. More concerned that he is letting them be cute in slowing our ruck ball up.
Ulster giving us a lesson in being clinical so far.
Going to have to work v v hard to get a win here- ulster won't fold like Exeter did. Let's hope we have worn them down a bit and our bench make an impact
Ulster giving us a lesson in being clinical so far.
Going to have to work v v hard to get a win here- ulster won't fold like Exeter did. Let's hope we have worn them down a bit and our bench make an impact
Quote:Same, only the pass back inside looked actually forwards to me.JK7
It looked like a marginal forward pass for the second try, I couldn't see anything 'huge.'
As for offside and interfering at the ruck etc - that's rugby players being rugby players. If the ref's not pinging it today, keep doing it.
If we're not doing the same, that's our problem.
If you're playingbrugby and not cheating, then you're doing it wrong.
Hell, the entire sport was invented by someone cheating at football!
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:16:12:37 by Quel Carreleur.
Quote:JK7
It looked like a marginal forward pass for the second try, I couldn't see anything 'huge.'
The one from the winger inside was more than marginal, and the final pass was clearly forward too. The player was in front of the winger.
Quote:Quel CarreleurQuote:Same, only the pass back inside looked actually forwards to me.JK7
It looked like a marginal forward pass for the second try, I couldn't see anything 'huge.'
As for offside and interfering at the ruck etc - that's rugby players being rugby players. If the ref's not pinging it today, keep doing it.
If we're not doing the same, that's our problem.
Isn't that part of rugby's problems, totally inconsistent officiating week to week, nation to nation. English refs would have been pinging Ulster regularly.
Not really.
The probs is people expecting ref.s to agree with them too much.
I can guarantee that Ulster fans are complaining about our cheating just as much - but it's "clever play" when we do it, "cheating b*****d" when they do.
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:16:15:44 by Quel Carreleur.
The probs is people expecting ref.s to agree with them too much.
I can guarantee that Ulster fans are complaining about our cheating just as much - but it's "clever play" when we do it, "cheating b*****d" when they do.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:16:15:44 by Quel Carreleur.
Quote:Quel CarreleurQuote:Same, only the pass back inside looked actually forwards to me.JK7
It looked like a marginal forward pass for the second try, I couldn't see anything 'huge.'
As for offside and interfering at the ruck etc - that's rugby players being rugby players. If the ref's not pinging it today, keep doing it.
If we're not doing the same, that's our problem.
If you're playingbrugby and not cheating, then you're doing it wrong.
Hell, the entire sport was invented by someone cheating at football!
So you both admit it was forward then.
Quote:stephen4944Quote:Quel CarreleurQuote:Same, only the pass back inside looked actually forwards to me.JK7
It looked like a marginal forward pass for the second try, I couldn't see anything 'huge.'
As for offside and interfering at the ruck etc - that's rugby players being rugby players. If the ref's not pinging it today, keep doing it.
If we're not doing the same, that's our problem.
If you're playingbrugby and not cheating, then you're doing it wrong.
Hell, the entire sport was invented by someone cheating at football!
So you both admit it was forward then.
I'd say I'm 51% sure it was forward. Not in itself something to get too wound up about.
Anyway, our big chaps are doing the business so it hopefully won't matter.
Quote:What part of "looked actually forward" gave it away?stephen4944
So you both admit it was forward then.
But yes, I "admit" that my stated opinion is my opinion.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:16:59:29 by Quel Carreleur.
Quote:JK7
Shades of the Exeter game - we look good, the better team, but a little bit loose and some bad luck and we concede.
Frustrating but still, nice to feel confident that we'll take control of this one sooner or later.
We did take control in the end.
This confidence thing, it's weird and unfamiliar.
Very impressive second half, and we have becone very clinical against 14.
Scrum was top, top notch. Kitshof second best all day.
And they sorted out the lineout too.
Stooke was exceptional - so many tackles.
Is the Ed Jackson doing pitchside, the ex-Bath Ed Jackson?
Nice to finally get a big cup victory.
Scrum was top, top notch. Kitshof second best all day.
And they sorted out the lineout too.
Stooke was exceptional - so many tackles.
Is the Ed Jackson doing pitchside, the ex-Bath Ed Jackson?
Nice to finally get a big cup victory.
I think we have to accept that if passes are marginally forward there is a good chance they might be given.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Extremely impressive interviews post match with Finn and JvG, get the feeling they are clearly building not only a team but a squad. JvG virtually saying there will be changes week to week to encourage competition for places.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Feels good to have won a European Cup game. It seems a long time since we last did that
Quote:Dorset Boy
Very impressive second half, and we have becone very clinical against 14.
Scrum was top, top notch. Kitshof second best all day.
And they sorted out the lineout too.
Stooke was exceptional - so many tackles.
Is the Ed Jackson doing pitchside, the ex-Bath Ed Jackson?
Nice to finally get a big cup victory.
That Ed Jackson yep- former bath player, son of helphire chap and inspirational recovery from a serious neck injury to go on and do some amazing charity treks etc.
He has done some stuff for c4 in the past I think? good pundit/reporter.
No injuries again ?
Gives us options next week, esp if we can get the likes of roux and bayliss back in the mix.... plus hill and rmc soon after.
Ended up largely being a carbon copy of the exeter game I thought but as I said at half time I expected ulster to stay close and make us work v hard.
Ever since I said coetzee should be offloaded cos he can never stay fit he had stayed fit and been exceptional- looked like he was going to score a try after a barnstorming run each time he got it. Humble pie for my dessert this eve and happy to have it!
Gives us options next week, esp if we can get the likes of roux and bayliss back in the mix.... plus hill and rmc soon after.
Ended up largely being a carbon copy of the exeter game I thought but as I said at half time I expected ulster to stay close and make us work v hard.
Ever since I said coetzee should be offloaded cos he can never stay fit he had stayed fit and been exceptional- looked like he was going to score a try after a barnstorming run each time he got it. Humble pie for my dessert this eve and happy to have it!
Thank you to the Ulster supporters in block C of the East stand, good craic and great to have knowledgeable people to spend the game with. (We often have transients who seem to regard the ticket price as a cover charge for access to the bar!) I Thanks for travelling and safe journey home.
On the subject of the red shirts, I think they only did it so they could use "Paint the town red" as a slogan!
On the subject of the red shirts, I think they only did it so they could use "Paint the town red" as a slogan!
Quote:charlieboaQuote:Dorset Boy
Very impressive second half, and we have becone very clinical against 14.
Scrum was top, top notch. Kitshof second best all day.
And they sorted out the lineout too.
Stooke was exceptional - so many tackles.
Is the Ed Jackson doing pitchside, the ex-Bath Ed Jackson?
Nice to finally get a big cup victory.
That Ed Jackson yep- former bath player, son of helphire chap and inspirational recovery from a serious neck injury to go on and do some amazing charity treks etc.
He has done some stuff for c4 in the past I think? good pundit/reporter.
Yep, did quite a bit for the Paralympics, he’s good
Quote:charlieboaQuote:Dorset Boy
Very impressive second half, and we have becone very clinical against 14.
Scrum was top, top notch. Kitshof second best all day.
And they sorted out the lineout too.
Stooke was exceptional - so many tackles.
Is the Ed Jackson doing pitchside, the ex-Bath Ed Jackson?
Nice to finally get a big cup victory.
That Ed Jackson yep- former bath player, son of helphire chap and inspirational recovery from a serious neck injury to go on and do some amazing charity treks etc.
He has done some stuff for c4 in the past I think? good pundit/reporter.
Thanks. It's great to see he has found some work around the game. He was good pitchside and the players clearly seemed to like him.
I have spent the best part of five years cringing behind the sofa at Bath's results. I am finally beginning to think it's time to come back into the light.
Quote:Susanne
On the subject of the red shirts, I think they only did it so they could use "Paint the town red" as a slogan!
I'm not so sure it wasn't deliberate, been said it was great to be n red and JvG mentioned it without being asked.
Red is a dominant colour for sports shirts teams wearing red not only won more titles in English football between 1946 and 2003, but they won more at home and had a higher average league position relative to derby rivals in the same city who wore other colours.
In the animal kingdom red moves you up the pecking order ....... literally!
One of the most pleasing features of the last few games for me has been the cleaning up of penalties in general and stupid ones in particular when compared to the first few games. Means less time under pressure in our own 22 and chances to stress the opposition in their 22 with multi phase play. Shows a squad and coaching unit capable of using the top 5cms.
Quote:View from the North
One of the most pleasing features of the last few games for me has been the cleaning up of penalties in general and stupid ones in particular when compared to the first few games. Means less time under pressure in our own 22 and chances to stress the opposition in their 22 with multi phase play. Shows a squad and coaching unit capable of using the top 5cms.
When Stooke gave away his penalty he looked really disappointed in himself which is a really good sign.
I know people talk about the Saffas we've got recently, but 13 of the starting XV were EQP. Pretty good. The beef coming on was heavily SA, but a great balance. A word for Jaco Coetzee as well, another brutal cameo.
Quote:Shipwrecked
Red is a dominant colour for sports shirts teams wearing red not only won more titles in English football between 1946 and 2003, but they won more at home and had a higher average league position relative to derby rivals in the same city who wore other colours.
Not to forget that England won the 1966 world cup final in red shirts.
Mind you red and white (or should say Cherry and White) is not quite as successful...
Quote:hasta
I know people talk about the Saffas we've got recently, but 13 of the starting XV were EQP. Pretty good. The beef coming on was heavily SA, but a great balance. A word for Jaco Coetzee as well, another brutal cameo.
Good point hasta. Plus one nearly Englishman and a Scot, huge domestic bias in the 15.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:19:01:41 by JK7.
So so many positives from today - A lot of players really fronted up today. A mention for Reid was absolutely everywhere doing the dirty work. Going to be a real decision when Hill is back.
I really hope TDG is given a start Gallagher has not impressed me so far this season. Also did the bailey haters see that kick 😉
Next week I would look at something like
1. TDT
2. Annett
3. Griffin
4. Ewels
5. Van Velze
6. Richards
7. Underhill
8. Coetzee
9. Spencer
10. Bailey
11. Butt
12. Ojomoh
13. Lawrence
14. Cokansiga
15. TDG
16. Faiva
17. Schoeman
18. Jonker
19. Roux
20. Bayliss
21. TCS
22. Harris
23. Hennessy
I really hope TDG is given a start Gallagher has not impressed me so far this season. Also did the bailey haters see that kick 😉
Next week I would look at something like
1. TDT
2. Annett
3. Griffin
4. Ewels
5. Van Velze
6. Richards
7. Underhill
8. Coetzee
9. Spencer
10. Bailey
11. Butt
12. Ojomoh
13. Lawrence
14. Cokansiga
15. TDG
16. Faiva
17. Schoeman
18. Jonker
19. Roux
20. Bayliss
21. TCS
22. Harris
23. Hennessy
Great effort from the forwards again, lineout aside.
View from the stands was the ref was very poor, missed high tackles, offsides ignored, forward passes seemed ok for him and not too worried about knock-on’s either. Other than that his decisions were ok!
View from the stands was the ref was very poor, missed high tackles, offsides ignored, forward passes seemed ok for him and not too worried about knock-on’s either. Other than that his decisions were ok!
Quote:HK890
I really hope TDG is given a start Gallagher has not impressed me so far this season. Also did the bailey haters see that kick.
If you think Matt Gallagher has been unimpressive I’m not sure we’ve been watching the same matches. Everything I’ve seen on him shows a player who’s Mr Reliable. He kicks well, distributes, and defends. Very good player indeed and definitely our first choice 15. .
I’m also surprised you think people hate Bailey, as I just don’t see or hear that sentiment anywhere.
Quote:HK890
So so many positives from today - A lot of players really fronted up today. A mention for Reid was absolutely everywhere doing the dirty work. Going to be a real decision when Hill is back.
I really hope TDG is given a start Gallagher has not impressed me so far this season. Also did the bailey haters see that kick 😉
Next week I would look at something like
1. TDT
2. Annett
3. Griffin
4. Ewels
5. Van Velze
6. Richards
7. Underhill
8. Coetzee
9. Spencer
10. Bailey
11. Butt
12. Ojomoh
13. Lawrence
14. Cokansiga
15. TDG
16. Faiva
17. Schoeman
18. Jonker
19. Roux
20. Bayliss
21. TCS
22. Harris
23. Hennessy
That's the kind of 23/number of changes I would be looking to make.
Always like to see a team with richards at 6!
Be great if roux and bayliss are in the mix.
Prob look to give mcnally and cloete a run personally.
What a luxury to be talking about making c10 changes with a view to still being competitive in an away euro game.
Bailey haters? what’s that all about? 🤔
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Bizarre comments from HK there. Gallagher was great and exactly the right pick for those conditions tho I do hope we go back to TdG when the ground is firmer and conditions much more conducive to wider, running rugby
Loved last Saturday but today even better. City not too rammed, weather decent, chatted with some lovely Ulster fans and a really entertaining game. Such a transformation. Biggest differences are the pace we play at, the confidence, the accuracy (We used to continually knock the ball on) and the discipline. Hard to analyse the ref so well when you're not watching on TV, but the game flowed so I'm happy to give him some credit for that and whilst the 2nd Ulster try might have had a couple of very marginal forward passes it was a pleasure to watch from the terraces. Such a bonus to see a game with scrums that stay up rather than tedious resets. All in all, another great advert for the game, whereas not that long ago most Bath matches were dire. Agree with an earlier poster on the kits though - both were horrible!
Quote:Susanne
Thank you to the Ulster supporters in block C of the East stand, good craic and great to have knowledgeable people to spend the game with.
+1 on the thanks to the travelling Ulster fans. The game was all the better for them being there. I’m only disappointed that we don’t have a return trip to Ravenhill.
Quote:charlieboaQuote:HK890
So so many positives from today - A lot of players really fronted up today. A mention for Reid was absolutely everywhere doing the dirty work. Going to be a real decision when Hill is back.
I really hope TDG is given a start Gallagher has not impressed me so far this season. Also did the bailey haters see that kick 😉
Next week I would look at something like
1. TDT
2. Annett
3. Griffin
4. Ewels
5. Van Velze
6. Richards
7. Underhill
8. Coetzee
9. Spencer
10. Bailey
11. Butt
12. Ojomoh
13. Lawrence
14. Cokansiga
15. TDG
16. Faiva
17. Schoeman
18. Jonker
19. Roux
20. Bayliss
21. TCS
22. Harris
23. Hennessy
That's the kind of 23/number of changes I would be looking to make.
Always like to see a team with richards at 6!
Be great if roux and bayliss are in the mix.
Prob look to give mcnally and cloete a run personally.
What a luxury to be talking about making c10 changes with a view to still being competitive in an away euro game.
Sorry guys but I wouldn't be rotating and risk losing a great opportunity to progress. Just TDT, Coutzee and TDG to start for me with a fast 4g pitch. Think Tigers away couldl be another Sale away selection.
Yesterday was brilliant. The place was buzzing and the Ulster supporters were excellent.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
I fear you may be right copester about the leic away selection.
I hate the idea of going there significantly understrength by choice as that game is v winnable and we owe them one.
As someone who has probably been to Welford Road to watch us about 15 times and only seen one win (2003) I struggle to stomach that approach.
I would rather take my chances with rotation against Cardiff and glos.... or just rotate 5-10 through week to week rather than the 12 we saw against sale!
Just bringing in tdt, coetzee, tdg certainly wouldn't weaken us. Don't think you lose that much with annett for dunn , gjvv for ewels , cloete for reid and mojo for cam also.
Be interesting to see how Cardiff respond to that trouncing yest- I would still back a heavily rotated team to sneak a win if they started well.
I hate the idea of going there significantly understrength by choice as that game is v winnable and we owe them one.
As someone who has probably been to Welford Road to watch us about 15 times and only seen one win (2003) I struggle to stomach that approach.
I would rather take my chances with rotation against Cardiff and glos.... or just rotate 5-10 through week to week rather than the 12 we saw against sale!
Just bringing in tdt, coetzee, tdg certainly wouldn't weaken us. Don't think you lose that much with annett for dunn , gjvv for ewels , cloete for reid and mojo for cam also.
Be interesting to see how Cardiff respond to that trouncing yest- I would still back a heavily rotated team to sneak a win if they started well.
Do you remember 3 - 4 years ago when we played Ulster and they beat us rather easily and Cooney did everything and was so brilliant I thought he would be in Irish Team and RWC.
He is a shadow of his former self......
I asked one of the Ulster supporters, a group in their very smart white blazers with red pinstripe, and he said that the Irish Number 10 di not like Cooney...........(gulp)!
He is a shadow of his former self......
I asked one of the Ulster supporters, a group in their very smart white blazers with red pinstripe, and he said that the Irish Number 10 di not like Cooney...........(gulp)!
Quote:HK890
I really hope TDG is given a start Gallagher has not impressed me so far this season. Also did the bailey haters see that kick 😉
I like TdG but Gallagher has been impressive I think.
Not seen any Bailey haters on here - rather an OTT comment.
I was really chuffed Bailey got that kick over.....he will of course have been working on that part of his game.
Also he ran the clock down very neatly.
Also he ran the clock down very neatly.
I prefer tdg but Gallagher is v reliable and consistent.
I think most feel bailey suffered a bit from playing behind a beaten pack, in an injury ravaged squad at the age of 19/20.
Should stand him in good stead , he is a v good player.
Hope he gets the chance to play in amongst our best players this season rather than always being rotated in with a load of others.
He deserves looking after as he stood up admirably- I would say him, mojo and richards were our best players when we were at our worst!
I think most feel bailey suffered a bit from playing behind a beaten pack, in an injury ravaged squad at the age of 19/20.
Should stand him in good stead , he is a v good player.
Hope he gets the chance to play in amongst our best players this season rather than always being rotated in with a load of others.
He deserves looking after as he stood up admirably- I would say him, mojo and richards were our best players when we were at our worst!
Feels fantastic to finally get a win in the Champions cup. Don't think many players really stood out, overall it was a good team performance. Spencer being the exception, as is the usual case. He's in red hot form, and whilst Mitchell was good against Glasgow (interception aside) Spencer has consistently been the best English 9. Borthwick must pick him.
I do think we Bath should be prioritising the Quins game on the 23rd, resting a few against Cardiff. Though if we want to progress in Europe, then I think we're more likely to beat Cardiff than R92 or Toulouse in January, and another win should see us through the group stage. Also I think only Russell and Spencer have played in each of the last 4 games, so most of the squad should be well rested already.
Frankly it's more likely that we'll beat Cardiff than R92 and Toulouse in January
I do think we Bath should be prioritising the Quins game on the 23rd, resting a few against Cardiff. Though if we want to progress in Europe, then I think we're more likely to beat Cardiff than R92 or Toulouse in January, and another win should see us through the group stage. Also I think only Russell and Spencer have played in each of the last 4 games, so most of the squad should be well rested already.
Frankly it's more likely that we'll beat Cardiff than R92 and Toulouse in January
Quote:JK7Quote:hasta
I know people talk about the Saffas we've got recently, but 13 of the starting XV were EQP. Pretty good. The beef coming on was heavily SA, but a great balance. A word for Jaco Coetzee as well, another brutal cameo.
Good point hasta. Plus one nearly Englishman and a Scot, huge domestic bias in the 15.
Pretty relaxed about our eqp- we are v much doing our bit for the England cause. There are loads of good young eqp getting game time in the prem this season inc with us.
Coetzee was superb- absolute brutal carrying. Easier when the opposition have been battered for long periods but jeeze he was good.
Quote:charlieboa
I would rather take my chances with rotation against Cardiff and glos.... or just rotate 5-10 through week to week rather than the 12 we saw against sale!
I disagree Charlie, happy to see rotation at Tigers because we've already lost at home to their second team so a win away seems unlikely.
Much rather go strong at Cardiff as a win gives us a chance of getting out of the group and Glos at home is a must win game.
The idea of getting one over Tigers because we 'owe them one' is great, however based on recent seasons we probably owe one to most teams! Might need to be pragmatic on that.
Yesterday, I forgot we would play in red shirts. Went to my local club with a Plan A to watch Bath in the club house. Looked through the window to the distant TV, saw red shirts and assumed TNT were showing another game. No problem, Plan B was also good, to watch our 1st XV instead. Both winners, a good day.
Yesterday, I forgot we would play in red shirts. Went to my local club with a Plan A to watch Bath in the club house. Looked through the window to the distant TV, saw red shirts and assumed TNT were showing another game. No problem, Plan B was also good, to watch our 1st XV instead. Both winners, a good day.
Just seen the BBC headline describing Bath as too strong for Ulster. Been a long time since we were described as too strong for anyone!
Also read that Cardiff rested players in preparation for their home games, so really hoping we don’t rest any players next week.
Also read that Cardiff rested players in preparation for their home games, so really hoping we don’t rest any players next week.
Quote:@Hydor18Quote:HK890
I really hope TDG is given a start Gallagher has not impressed me so far this season. Also did the bailey haters see that kick.
If you think Matt Gallagher has been unimpressive I’m not sure we’ve been watching the same matches. Everything I’ve seen on him shows a player who’s Mr Reliable. He kicks well, distributes, and defends. Very good player indeed and definitely our first choice 15. .
I’m also surprised you think people hate Bailey, as I just don’t see or hear that sentiment anywhere.
Gallagher has been defensively open that Ulster try was on him, he doesn’t look starts running back then leaves a massive dog leg. I just feel Gallagher is just there. That’s it he’s not really stamping an impact and not what I would expect TDG to be able to do. Reliable yes but that’s it.
The Bailey comment was nothing to do with people here, more people on social media who have been slating his kicking.
Just read that 3 inches of rain had fallen on the pitch over the last week.
Hats off to the ground staff and whoever was involved with the stiching the pitch concept!
Hats off to the ground staff and whoever was involved with the stiching the pitch concept!
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:charlieboa
I would rather take my chances with rotation against Cardiff and glos.... or just rotate 5-10 through week to week rather than the 12 we saw against sale!
I disagree Charlie, happy to see rotation at Tigers because we've already lost at home to their second team so a win away seems unlikely.
Much rather go strong at Cardiff as a win gives us a chance of getting out of the group and Glos at home is a must win game.
Will happily admit that it's my deep rooted desire to win at Welford Rd that is clouding my judgement.
I do think they will rotate a bit against Cardiff though as quins at home in the prem seems a bigger priority and they are going well/ a direct rival for top 4.
Has someone taken control of your account BTW OB? Never thought I would see you say you were happy with heavy rotation and accepting defeat going into a bath vs leic game understrength.
I just find the psychology of target your home games interesting as everyone seems to be playing the same game. Could prob get away with going weaker at home and sneak more away wins but v high risk.
I guess its far safer/ pragmatic/conservative to do the same as everyone else. I would argue that with 2 or 3 less changes we v possibly would have taken 4 rather than 1 match point against sale. Against exeter with a slightly less strong selection its v feasible we would have got at least 4 match pts.
All guesswork, no complaints about how the season is going but I think some bravery is needed to get top 2 and I think that's where you usually need to be to win the thing (I really want to win the thing!)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:10:12:21:39 by charlieboa.
Great performance. 1-23. Brilliant. Bit like last week, against perhaps tougher opposition and on a bigger stage. Kept our cool and turned the screw, sending the power and pace through the roof.
There’s lot of good things going on - Finn being a major one - but the fact we’re able to pick from an almost entirely fit squad, and rotate, must be so central to us turning in top class performances week after week. Combos are settling (eg Dunn talked about ‘precision’ at scrum time must come down to playing in together. Spencer and Finn look in great harmony) and the team is gelling off the back of it. The JCok try in the second half was just a superb team try. Rock solid platform, great skills, bit of star quality, powerful finish. Glorious.
Don’t think any injuries either. I’d love to know if (statistically) teams in the lower half of the leagues have less possession so defend more, and therefore pick up more knocks as a result. Obviously this then compounds down, as they have fewer to choose from, so they defend more next week ergo etc. Fact we’re on the front foot and winning collisions might mean we’re not picking up injuries in game.
Roll on Cardiff. In JvG we trust. Whatever he thinks, I’m for it.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
There’s lot of good things going on - Finn being a major one - but the fact we’re able to pick from an almost entirely fit squad, and rotate, must be so central to us turning in top class performances week after week. Combos are settling (eg Dunn talked about ‘precision’ at scrum time must come down to playing in together. Spencer and Finn look in great harmony) and the team is gelling off the back of it. The JCok try in the second half was just a superb team try. Rock solid platform, great skills, bit of star quality, powerful finish. Glorious.
Don’t think any injuries either. I’d love to know if (statistically) teams in the lower half of the leagues have less possession so defend more, and therefore pick up more knocks as a result. Obviously this then compounds down, as they have fewer to choose from, so they defend more next week ergo etc. Fact we’re on the front foot and winning collisions might mean we’re not picking up injuries in game.
Roll on Cardiff. In JvG we trust. Whatever he thinks, I’m for it.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:by
Feels fantastic to finally get a win in the Champions cup. Don't think many players really stood out, overall it was a good team performance. Spencer being the exception, as is the usual case. He's in red hot form, and whilst Mitchell was good against Glasgow (interception aside) Spencer has consistently been the best English 9. Borthwick must pick him.
Was sat a couple of seats away from Borthwick...there were a few hints dropped - especially after that pass for Joe's try.
Am biased, but I don't see a more complete 9 that Spencer - he's got everything. Should let him run the game from 9 and let Smith do his thing at 10.
Quote:TomReagan
Lighting up Pulteney Bridge red apparently, according to Somerset Live. Nice gesture to welcome Ulster although apparently it's to plug our RED European shirt. Sorry, just about OK for a training kit, but a step too far to play in it imho.
Why not, there’s red in the badge?
It’s a change kit, it should be far out and wacky.
Home should be BB&W, the rest, fill your boots with ideas.
J
Quote:TomReagan
In total agreement. Might be worth buying one simply because in 20 years' time they'll be as rare as those European shirts with Channel 5 on cos the French TV companies didn't allow shirts plugging booze, or have I got that bit wrong? Sorry sw, photo rings a distinct bell but the link, if there is one, with Bath is a blank!
Remember that camouflage European shirt? I found mine in the loft. I was surprised that Polyester shrinks.
J
Quote:HK890
Gallagher has been defensively open that Ulster try was on him, he doesn’t look starts running back then leaves a massive dog leg. I just feel Gallagher is just there. That’s it he’s not really stamping an impact and not what I would expect TDG to be able to do. Reliable yes but that’s it.
I think you underestimate Gallagher. I think we are lucky to have him. TDG is also very talented but I certainly wouldn’t place him ahead. We are building a squad. There doesn’t have to be a pecking order for every player does there?
Quote:A.M 180
To make it mor confusing, Ulster are wearing yellow!
I went to a Sweden v Scotland football match and both teams decided to push their new away kits.
Scotland were in Yellow and Sweden in Dark Blue.
Very odd.
J
Quote:ChippenhamRomanQuote:TomReagan
In total agreement. Might be worth buying one simply because in 20 years' time they'll be as rare as those European shirts with Channel 5 on cos the French TV companies didn't allow shirts plugging booze, or have I got that bit wrong? Sorry sw, photo rings a distinct bell but the link, if there is one, with Bath is a blank!
Remember that camouflage European shirt? I found mine in the loft. I was surprised that Polyester shrinks.
J
Sounds like the camouflage still worked, though!
Quote:dr.bath1865
Don’t think any injuries either. I’d love to know if (statistically) teams in the lower half of the leagues have less possession so defend more, and therefore pick up more knocks as a result. Obviously this then compounds down, as they have fewer to choose from, so they defend more next week ergo etc. Fact we’re on the front foot and winning collisions might mean we’re not picking up injuries in game.
It does seem highly plausible but are players more likely to get injured tackling than being tackled?
Quote:charlieboaQuote:OutsideBathQuote:charlieboa
I would rather take my chances with rotation against Cardiff and glos.... or just rotate 5-10 through week to week rather than the 12 we saw against sale!
I disagree Charlie, happy to see rotation at Tigers because we've already lost at home to their second team so a win away seems unlikely.
Much rather go strong at Cardiff as a win gives us a chance of getting out of the group and Glos at home is a must win game.
Will happily admit that it's my deep rooted desire to win at Welford Rd that is clouding my judgement.
I do think they will rotate a bit against Cardiff though as quins at home in the prem seems a bigger priority and they are going well/ a direct rival for top 4.
Has someone taken control of your account BTW OB? Never thought I would see you say you were happy with heavy rotation and accepting defeat going into a bath vs leic game understrength.
I just find the psychology of target your home games interesting as everyone seems to be playing the same game. Could prob get away with going weaker at home and sneak more away wins but v high risk.
I guess its far safer/ pragmatic/conservative to do the same as everyone else. I would argue that with 2 or 3 less changes we v possibly would have taken 4 rather than 1 match point against sale. Against exeter with a slightly less strong selection its v feasible we would have got at least 4 match pts.
All guesswork, no complaints about how the season is going but I think some bravery is needed to get top 2 and I think that's where you usually need to be to win the thing (I really want to win the thing!)
My first trip to Welford Road was in May 2019 where we beat them right at the death to nick a BP win 31-32.
It got us into the Champions Cup, which was nice.
J
Quote:ChippenhamRoman
All guesswork, no complaints about how the season is going but I think some bravery is needed to get top 2 and I think that's where you usually need to be to win the thing (I really want to win the thing!)
That should be our aim & we have started well enough but we have got quite a mountain to climb. Quins, Saints, Sarries, Sale & Leicester will all be stiff opposition. We won’t have failed if we don’t ge to the top two just yet.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:10:23:33:14 by Bath Hammer.
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:dr.bath1865
Don’t think any injuries either. I’d love to know if (statistically) teams in the lower half of the leagues have less possession so defend more, and therefore pick up more knocks as a result. Obviously this then compounds down, as they have fewer to choose from, so they defend more next week ergo etc. Fact we’re on the front foot and winning collisions might mean we’re not picking up injuries in game.
It does seem highly plausible but are players more likely to get injured tackling than being tackled?
I think that there is a further sub-division. Tackling whilst on the front foot on your own terms (setting feet, good shape) means that you are more likely to win collisions than scrambling on the back foot as we have been doing for years and hitting heads, injuring weak arms etc. Our pack 'go forward' now means that this season we have been so often on the front foot that we have been the ones dominating contact.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Good point, Matt. Add into your equation acceleration, the ability for a set defensive line to move forward together at pace, and you've got a recipe for bigger impacts. F = M x A. And as medieval as it is, the more F you put into the opposition runners, there must be a higher chance of causing injuries.
Another thing to add to our success this year is the make-up of this season, and how it started 6 weeks later than usual due to the WC. I guess this gave us a chance to reset, to get players back functioning again rather than being held together with sticky tape. The primary driver of our improved injury situation is the med and S&C team, and JvG's rotation squad management, but, simply, time in the summer to rest and recover has probably benefited our squad more than most, given the injuries we've had compounding throughout the last X number of seasons.
Had a look back through the news section of the website.
This time(ish) last year (2022), we had the following unavailable: Alfie Barbeary, Lewis Boyce, Chris Cloete, Jaco Coetzee, Gabriel Hamer-Webb, Ruaridh McConnochie, Quinn Roux, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill, Mike Williams.
The year before (2021): Ben Spencer, Tom de Glanville, Lewis Boyce, Joe Simpson, Johannes Jonker, Tom Doughty, Max Clark, Juan Schoeman, Taulupe Faletau, Cameron Redpath, Tian Schoeman, Joe Cokanasiga and Ethan Staddon, Jaco Coetzee, Anthony Watson, Beno Obano
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Another thing to add to our success this year is the make-up of this season, and how it started 6 weeks later than usual due to the WC. I guess this gave us a chance to reset, to get players back functioning again rather than being held together with sticky tape. The primary driver of our improved injury situation is the med and S&C team, and JvG's rotation squad management, but, simply, time in the summer to rest and recover has probably benefited our squad more than most, given the injuries we've had compounding throughout the last X number of seasons.
Had a look back through the news section of the website.
This time(ish) last year (2022), we had the following unavailable: Alfie Barbeary, Lewis Boyce, Chris Cloete, Jaco Coetzee, Gabriel Hamer-Webb, Ruaridh McConnochie, Quinn Roux, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill, Mike Williams.
The year before (2021): Ben Spencer, Tom de Glanville, Lewis Boyce, Joe Simpson, Johannes Jonker, Tom Doughty, Max Clark, Juan Schoeman, Taulupe Faletau, Cameron Redpath, Tian Schoeman, Joe Cokanasiga and Ethan Staddon, Jaco Coetzee, Anthony Watson, Beno Obano
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:charlieboa
I would rather take my chances with rotation against Cardiff and glos.... or just rotate 5-10 through week to week rather than the 12 we saw against sale!
I disagree Charlie, happy to see rotation at Tigers because we've already lost at home to their second team so a win away seems unlikely.
Much rather go strong at Cardiff as a win gives us a chance of getting out of the group and Glos at home is a must win game.
Absolutely this
To qualify for the knock out stage we really need to beat Cardiff away and not rely on beating Racing at home
Winning remaining home games is essential to getting top 4 and it is a home derby match that Glaws will be throwing everything at reversing the Kinsholm result
Quote:dr.bath1865
Had a look back through the news section of the website.
This time(ish) last year (2022), we had the following unavailable: Alfie Barbeary, Lewis Boyce, Chris Cloete, Jaco Coetzee, Gabriel Hamer-Webb, Ruaridh McConnochie, Quinn Roux, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill, Mike Williams.
The year before (2021): Ben Spencer, Tom de Glanville, Lewis Boyce, Joe Simpson, Johannes Jonker, Tom Doughty, Max Clark, Juan Schoeman, Taulupe Faletau, Cameron Redpath, Tian Schoeman, Joe Cokanasiga and Ethan Staddon, Jaco Coetzee, Anthony Watson, Beno Obano
Great piece of research there and that definitely tells a massive story
Quote:gaz59Quote:OutsideBathQuote:charlieboa
I would rather take my chances with rotation against Cardiff and glos.... or just rotate 5-10 through week to week rather than the 12 we saw against sale!
I disagree Charlie, happy to see rotation at Tigers because we've already lost at home to their second team so a win away seems unlikely.
Much rather go strong at Cardiff as a win gives us a chance of getting out of the group and Glos at home is a must win game.
Absolutely this
To qualify for the knock out stage we really need to beat Cardiff away and not rely on beating Racing at home
Winning remaining home games is essential to getting top 4 and it is a home derby match that Glaws will be throwing everything at reversing the Kinsholm result
Tbh I am wildly negative about Europe and wildly optimistic about the prem.
Really find it hard to see a way we win the champions cup, really can see a way we can win the prem. Can't target both realistically as this run with a low injury count won't last forever if we are battling on 2 fronts.
For that reason I would focus on the prem and focus on trying to make top 2 by controversially attempting to win some away prem games as well as the home ones.
In jvg we trust- some interesting selections coming up. Didn't see much to fear from Welford Rd yest but totally different proposition when we roll into town.
The one I think we need to be fully loaded for is quins at home. Key game against a top 4 rival v capable of beating us at the rec.
Will we go full strength for Exeter, ulster, Cardiff and then quins- seems unlikely.
I would make changes this weekend to freshen up before quins .
Will we go full strength for Exeter, ulster, Cardiff and then quins- seems unlikely.
I would make changes this weekend to freshen up before quins .
Quote:charlieboa
The one I think we need to be fully loaded for is quins at home. Key game against a top 4 rival v capable of beating us at the rec.
Will we go full strength for Exeter, ulster, Cardiff and then quins- seems unlikely.
From various recent interviews I think we will nearly always go full strength at home CB. I expect changes for Cardiff definitely.
I think you can rotate front row (so start Schoemann/Annett/TdT with the others on the bench). The only players I'd consider for a full rest are potentially Ewels, Underhill and/or Reid and Finn. I'd like something like:
Schoemann
Annett
TdT
Stooke
GJVV
Richards
Cloete
Coetzee
TCS
Bailey
Muir
Mojo
Lawrence
Butt
TdG
Obano
Dunn
Stuart
Roux/McNally
Barbeary
Spencer
Redpath
Harris/Cokanasiga
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:11:13:52:21 by hasta.
Schoemann
Annett
TdT
Stooke
GJVV
Richards
Cloete
Coetzee
TCS
Bailey
Muir
Mojo
Lawrence
Butt
TdG
Obano
Dunn
Stuart
Roux/McNally
Barbeary
Spencer
Redpath
Harris/Cokanasiga
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:11:13:52:21 by hasta.
What was really impressive for me personally on Saturday was the way we have learnt from early exchanges this season - we did not allow ourselves to get frustrated with the official despite Ulster permanently offside, hands in ruck, lazy running and the 2 questionable passes for their second try.
The Tigers game we really let Makepeace's poor performance get to us and it cost us the game, Saturday we kept calm - Ben just kept pointing things out to the official and in the end he started albeit belatedly penalising Ulster. I think the game on Sunday Racing v Quins showed just how the referee got under the skin of the Racing players and it clearly affected their entire game.
For me that shows this team is evolving and it was great to see.
The Tigers game we really let Makepeace's poor performance get to us and it cost us the game, Saturday we kept calm - Ben just kept pointing things out to the official and in the end he started albeit belatedly penalising Ulster. I think the game on Sunday Racing v Quins showed just how the referee got under the skin of the Racing players and it clearly affected their entire game.
For me that shows this team is evolving and it was great to see.
Like your selection hasta, but it looks a little light in leadership experience in the starting XV.
Who would be your skipper?
PG
Who would be your skipper?
PG
Quote:hasta
I think you can rotate front row (so start Schoemann/Annett/TdT with the others on the bench). The only players I'd consider for a full rest are potentially Ewels, Underhill and/or Reid and Finn. I'd like something like:
Schoemann
Annett
TdT
Stooke
GJVV
Richards
Cloete
Coetzee
TCS
Bailey
Muir
Mojo
Lawrence
Butt
TdG
Obano
Dunn
Stuart
Roux/McNally
Barbeary
Spencer
Redpath
Harris/Cokanasiga
Like that squad.
I would go with something similar.
You don't lose a lot with many of those changes eg tdt for stuart, gjvv for ewels, coetzee for alfie, mojo for redpath, tdg for Gallagher.
If we are in it or have a lead to hold on to with 25 mins left then offload a strong bench.
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:dr.bath1865
Don’t think any injuries either. I’d love to know if (statistically) teams in the lower half of the leagues have less possession so defend more, and therefore pick up more knocks as a result. Obviously this then compounds down, as they have fewer to choose from, so they defend more next week ergo etc. Fact we’re on the front foot and winning collisions might mean we’re not picking up injuries in game.
It does seem highly plausible but are players more likely to get injured tackling than being tackled?
100% studies shown higher injury risk for tacklers than ball carriers. Especially concussion and considering the tackles the most dangerous situation shows how big a part it is
Quote:HK890Quote:Bath HammerQuote:dr.bath1865
Don’t think any injuries either. I’d love to know if (statistically) teams in the lower half of the leagues have less possession so defend more, and therefore pick up more knocks as a result. Obviously this then compounds down, as they have fewer to choose from, so they defend more next week ergo etc. Fact we’re on the front foot and winning collisions might mean we’re not picking up injuries in game.
It does seem highly plausible but are players more likely to get injured tackling than being tackled?
100% studies shown higher injury risk for tacklers than ball carriers. Especially concussion and considering the tackles the most dangerous situation shows how big a part it is
Not at all sure the wording is ideal, it's about the same but slightly more risky for the tackler, is that what you are saying.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:HK890Quote:Bath HammerQuote:dr.bath1865
Don’t think any injuries either. I’d love to know if (statistically) teams in the lower half of the leagues have less possession so defend more, and therefore pick up more knocks as a result. Obviously this then compounds down, as they have fewer to choose from, so they defend more next week ergo etc. Fact we’re on the front foot and winning collisions might mean we’re not picking up injuries in game.
It does seem highly plausible but are players more likely to get injured tackling than being tackled?
100% studies shown higher injury risk for tacklers than ball carriers. Especially concussion and considering the tackles the most dangerous situation shows how big a part it is
Not at all sure the wording is ideal, it's about the same but slightly more risky for the tackler, is that what you are saying.
I think that was HIAs particularly, rather than injuries in general?
2.7. The recommendation of the World Rugby Expert Working Group that reviewed the 2016 analysis was that to reduce the likelihood of an HIA, 29% of which occur to the ball carrier and 71% to the tackler, the game should focus on lowering the height of the tackler’s head in relation to the ball carrier, which would be achieved by lowering the tackle height, and encouraging tacklers to bend in the tackle.
The PRIPS report (19/20) said:
52% of all match injuries were attributed to the tackle, with being tackled and tackling each accounting for 26% of all match injuries.
....
In 2019-20, the incidence of injuries to the ball carrier and the tackler were similar (23.0 per 1000 hours vs 22.8 per 1000 hours: Figure 8). The mean severity of injury for the ball carrier and tackler were 37 and 34 days, respectively (Figure 9). The burden of injury to the ball carrier was 858 days absence per 1000 hours and 769 days absence per 1000 hours to the tackler (Table S6). The most common injury in the tackle to both the ball carrier and tackler was concussion, making up 39% of all injuries to the tackler and 17% to the ball carrier.
So whilst general injury risk is similar, in terms of HIAs its much higher for the tackler.
[www.englandrugby.com]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Yes thats what I thought, we are agreeing. If you look at some of the data it varies a bit. Oddly the figures are closer to parity for the women's game.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
On the Quin's game I feel we need our best pack out there, I was pretty impressed with Lauchberry in the Racing game also Dillon Lewis seemed revitalised and will give Wil Stuart some problems. Also Alfie Barbeary v Cunningham South will be a good match up. (NB Charlie only 20!)
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Yes Cunningham South is a great young player, have been really impressed with him and could see him getting full caps if he keeps it up.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Re Launchberry, did he go off injured? I had to leave the house just as I saw him at the bottom of a ruck and clutching his shoulder, seemingly in a fair bit of pain? Didn't get to see the rest of the match so not sure if he carried on?
Quote:BathOtter
Re Launchberry, did he go off injured? I had to leave the house just as I saw him at the bottom of a ruck and clutching his shoulder, seemingly in a fair bit of pain? Didn't get to see the rest of the match so not sure if he carried on?
He stayed on a while but was then subbed. He looked to still be in a bit of pain when sat on the bench.
I suspect he may not play this weekend.
I thought Quins were excellent against Racing.
\Thank goodness Borthwick "won't" pick Smith...........otherwise England might score some tries and that would never do!
\Thank goodness Borthwick "won't" pick Smith...........otherwise England might score some tries and that would never do!
Has anyone lese noticed that the little chip over the advancing back line is becoming much more common 2 or three times a game?
Those of you read and remember what I have written on 'ere for the past 20 years will no I have banged on about this forever!
This was one of things that Freddie Burns used to do, sadly just not that well, but at least he tried!
Those of you read and remember what I have written on 'ere for the past 20 years will no I have banged on about this forever!
This was one of things that Freddie Burns used to do, sadly just not that well, but at least he tried!
Yep - those chips (which you have indeed identified for years) are getting shorter and more recoverable. Finn did it at least twice on Saturday with a finesse of touch that Messi would have been proud of. I think that the ‘work’ and manipulation of the oval ball has come a long way but is still ripe for further exploitation.
Yeh really noticable and not just by Finn. Lots of 10s are trying it.
Is that a knock on effect of the 50:22 rule? Full back and wingers, and even scrum halves, are having to cover the touchlines in the backfield, near the 22, creating space in the middle of the field.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Is that a knock on effect of the 50:22 rule? Full back and wingers, and even scrum halves, are having to cover the touchlines in the backfield, near the 22, creating space in the middle of the field.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Finn’s chips were absolutely class the way he changed the point of contact with the ball so it stopped and bounced back towards our players.
Real class - TBF Farrell is excellent at this skill as well.
Real class - TBF Farrell is excellent at this skill as well.
Watched the game back on catch up last night after being at the game on Saturday. Couple of observations
Was BOD watching a different game but how he thought it was closer than the scoreboard suggested I don't know. We dominated other than conseeding 2 soft trys in 5 mins. Other than that we were good
Forwards went really well I and in addition to Beno getting on top of both their props Will Stuart more than held hi own against Kitsoff. Though generally he had the better of it.
3 things missed in the run up to the 2nd try
The mark was caught on the 5 meter line but the kick taken 25 yards from touch the increase in angle made a huge difference to the length of the clearance.
2 forward passes not massive but forward none the less
I thought on Sat that some of their players didn't look fit and thought that on rewatching as well
Was BOD watching a different game but how he thought it was closer than the scoreboard suggested I don't know. We dominated other than conseeding 2 soft trys in 5 mins. Other than that we were good
Forwards went really well I and in addition to Beno getting on top of both their props Will Stuart more than held hi own against Kitsoff. Though generally he had the better of it.
3 things missed in the run up to the 2nd try
The mark was caught on the 5 meter line but the kick taken 25 yards from touch the increase in angle made a huge difference to the length of the clearance.
2 forward passes not massive but forward none the less
I thought on Sat that some of their players didn't look fit and thought that on rewatching as well
Quote:Murty7
I thought on Sat that some of their players didn't look fit and thought that on rewatching as well
Always the case with the losing side - very much chicken or egg for me.
Agree losing side always look less fit particularly when they are being dominated physically.
The lack of fitness was more a visual thing and thought it before kick off.
The lack of fitness was more a visual thing and thought it before kick off.
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