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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:13:12:01:59 by P G Tips.

Crikey, did not realise Glasgow have such a strong squad. Does anyone now how the pools will now work given they are two teams light ?

Ouch, that is a serious 23 they can put out. Loke Nick H i hadn't appreciated they have such a strong squad - this will be a tough test for us even with our enhanced energy and potency compared to recent previous year's efforts

Worth giving Jonker a go at TH? I'm not sure who is the stronger scrummager of him and Rae, but we need to not give away 5/6 penalties at the scrum this week.

Sure would be nice to win a European Cup game... the first in nearly 4 maybe 5 years??? (Wasps at home was it???).

2021 Challenge CUP QF dr.bath- beat L Irish then lost to Montpellier in SF.

PG

Ah yes, PG, thanks for bringing back the fond memories of our semi-final demise, but I meant in the Big Cup.

Got a feeling we haven't got a W in the senior European competition in years, although, to be fair, we seem to have been drawn with Leinster, Clermont and/or La Roch in recent campaigns.

Quote:

PGTips
2021 Challenge CUP QF

True, but the reality is that the last time we won a match in the big boys cup was January 2019 (against Wasps). Our recent record (last 5 seasons) in that cup is played 18 won 1.

And last years humbling exit from the little boys cup in the round of 16 is our lowest exit from that cup as well.

7-64 v Leinster last season wasn't exactly a high point, either.

Anyhoo, on recent performances, we're in a much better place this season, so whilst I'm not expecting us to win the thing, it'd be lovely if we were competitive.

Can’t decide to go Saturday or not.

Need to try and convince one of both boys to come.

Being Scottish it’s always welcome to see half of the national team up close in the flesh.

J

If we continue mishandling, missing penalties & failing to take opportunities we will get thumped but hopefully some of that will have been eradicated under our more effective coaching regime.

Afternoon all, Warriors fan here looking forward to what will be my first trip to the Rec. I think some of you are worrying about this game way too much! We have been utterly, utterly, horrendously, awful away from home for a long time. Yes, we beat Zebre 45-17 in Parma last week... but I don't think there have been many games in the last couple of years when they haven't taken a thumping, so wouldn't read too much into that. Our other away matches this year have been 33-11, 32-17, 40-12 and 40-5 defeats to Treviso, Ospreys, Sharks and Leinster.

We're rebuilding under Franco Smith and it's based primarily on our home form, which has been as good as our away form has been bad. Even last year, which was our worst year in a long time (finished 8th in the URC), the only two teams to beat us at Scotstoun were the two teams that went on to contest the Heineken Cup Final. Home record this year is all wins: 52-24, 35-21 and 37-0 against Cardiff, Bulls and Treviso (note the 60 point swing in away v home matches against them!). So it's fair to say that in an ideal world we'd have preferred to start at home, get some momentum and played a defeated team starting to conserve players away in round 2!

Think your preview is a little out on a few key positions. Kebble and Zander Fagerson look to be out injured. You may well see young Murphy Walker at tight head, who looks (touchwood as ever) like a bit of a rising star. Will be interesting to compare him to D'arcy Rae, who was always well thought of here, particularly as a scrummager, but had lost his way before leaving - I'm glad a change of scenery seems to have revitalised him. JP Du Preez has barely had a look in since moving from Sale, so if we do see him, it's perhaps an indication that Smith isn't wholly committed to the Challenge Cup. More likely that it will be Sintu Manjezi alongside Gray. Rory Darge is out until well into the new year, and Tom Gordon still on the injured list too AFAIK, so we've no real traditional number 7.

Similarly, if Duncan Weir is anywhere near the 23...

All the indications are that Sione Tuipolotu will be rested for this having played all through the AIs and last couple of weeks. Rumours that Huw Jones will replace him in a return from injury. Sam Johnson also coming back from injury, but I'd imagine only one of them will be thrown in.

I think as a fan base we're looking forward to the Challenge Cup as a competition - other than dropping into it after the HC group stages last year, it has been quite a long time since we've had the pleasure! And to be honest, the HC, particularly in its current format, has been a step too far for us recently.

Will say that we were all gobsmacked by the price of tickets for this particular Challenge Cup game though!

Now if you could just keep the rain off, please...!

Quote:

FiveSticks

Quote:

PGTips
2021 Challenge CUP QF

True, but the reality is that the last time we won a match in the big boys cup was January 2019 (against Wasps). Our recent record (last 5 seasons) in that cup is played 18 won 1.

And last years humbling exit from the little boys cup in the round of 16 is our lowest exit from that cup as well.

This competition is not "the little boys cup"

OK it won't have the kudos of being champions of Europe and some of the qualifying games will be poor match ups but the teams that get through to the semis and final will be quality sides deserving of silverware

Quote:

dr.bath1865
Worth giving Jonker a go at TH? I'm not sure who is the stronger scrummager of him and Rae, but we need to not give away 5/6 penalties at the scrum this week.
Sure would be nice to win a European Cup game... the first in nearly 4 maybe 5 years??? (Wasps at home was it???).

I would agree with you but this week against his old club i would guess that Rae will be really up for it and we will see the best of him.

Quote:

East_Stand_Warrior
Afternoon all, Warriors fan here looking forward to what will be my first trip to the Rec. I think some of you are worrying about this game way too much! We have been utterly, utterly, horrendously, awful away from home for a long time. Yes, we beat Zebre 45-17 in Parma last week... but I don't think there have been many games in the last couple of years when they haven't taken a thumping, so wouldn't read too much into that. Our other away matches this year have been 33-11, 32-17, 40-12 and 40-5 defeats to Treviso, Ospreys, Sharks and Leinster.
We're rebuilding under Franco Smith and it's based primarily on our home form, which has been as good as our away form has been bad. Even last year, which was our worst year in a long time (finished 8th in the URC), the only two teams to beat us at Scotstoun were the two teams that went on to contest the Heineken Cup Final. Home record this year is all wins: 52-24, 35-21 and 37-0 against Cardiff, Bulls and Treviso (note the 60 point swing in away v home matches against them!). So it's fair to say that in an ideal world we'd have preferred to start at home, get some momentum and played a defeated team starting to conserve players away in round 2!

Think your preview is a little out on a few key positions. Kebble and Zander Fagerson look to be out injured. You may well see young Murphy Walker at tight head, who looks (touchwood as ever) like a bit of a rising star. Will be interesting to compare him to D'arcy Rae, who was always well thought of here, particularly as a scrummager, but had lost his way before leaving - I'm glad a change of scenery seems to have revitalised him. JP Du Preez has barely had a look in since moving from Sale, so if we do see him, it's perhaps an indication that Smith isn't wholly committed to the Challenge Cup. More likely that it will be Sintu Manjezi alongside Gray. Rory Darge is out until well into the new year, and Tom Gordon still on the injured list too AFAIK, so we've no real traditional number 7.

Similarly, if Duncan Weir is anywhere near the 23...

All the indications are that Sione Tuipolotu will be rested for this having played all through the AIs and last couple of weeks. Rumours that Huw Jones will replace him in a return from injury. Sam Johnson also coming back from injury, but I'd imagine only one of them will be thrown in.

I think as a fan base we're looking forward to the Challenge Cup as a competition - other than dropping into it after the HC group stages last year, it has been quite a long time since we've had the pleasure! And to be honest, the HC, particularly in its current format, has been a step too far for us recently.

Will say that we were all gobsmacked by the price of tickets for this particular Challenge Cup game though!

Now if you could just keep the rain off, please...!

Thank you for the detailed info, thoughts and analysis ESW. Hope you enjoy your visit to Bath (although a Glasgow victory would be too much charity!)

Team Up. Spencer skipper:

Bath Rugby team to play Glasgow Warriors

15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Cameron Redpath, 11 Matt Gallagher, 10 Piers Francis, 9 Ben Spencer; 1 Valeriy Morozov, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Fergus Lee-Warner, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Wesley White, 8 Josh Bayliss

Impact players

16 Niall Annett, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 Johannes Jonker, 19 Will Spencer, 20 Tom Ellis, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Richard de Carpentier

P G Tips


Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.

Glasgow team as below. To be honest, it's a bit of a slap in the face for those who have paid good money to travel. I guess we're not bothering with the Challenge Cup, then...

1. Jamie Bhatti (74)
2. George Turner (82)
3. Simon Berghan (16)
4. Lewis Bean (22)
5. JP du Preez (8)
6. Ryan Wilson (218)
7. Cameron Neild (0)
8. Jack Mann (0)

9. Jamie Dobie (39)
10. Domingo Miotti (11)
11. Rufus McLean (24)
12. Stafford McDowall (43)
13. Huw Jones (49)
14. Kyle Steyn (C) (54)
15. Ollie Smith (21)

Replacements
16. Angus Fraser (0)
17. Nathan McBeth (8)
18. Lucio Sordoni (3)
19. Richie Gray (89)
20. Euan Ferrie (2)
21. Sean Kennedy (21)
22. Duncan Weir (126)
23. Walter Fifita (2)

From an Edinburgh Fan I've invited along to watch his least favorite team get beat (I hope). He has far more knowledge of Scottish Rugby than me, but thought I would share:

"Warriors fans not happy - setting up to lose the game and keep players fresh for URC"

Kind of glad really. Will be nice to for Bath to have the opportunity to run amok. Certainly ought to with those respective teams.

Quote:

Optimist
Kind of glad really. Will be nice to for Bath to have the opportunity to run amok. Certainly ought to with those respective teams.

How many times have we said that and then gone on to lose the game comfortably?

Bath have finally started to improve under JvG, but the ability to lose games we should win and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory remains imbedded in Bath's DNA.

Quote:

OutsideBath
How many times have we said that and then gone on to lose the game comfortably?
Bath have finally started to improve under JvG, but the ability to lose games we should win and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory remains imbedded in Bath's DNA.

Agreed.
We've turned a corner, but we're not exactly strong yet.

We ought to be better; and I certainly hope that are; and that we can put our systems in place on the pitch and earn some much-needed confidence. It'll do us a world of good, way more important than the result itself.

A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:09:14:51:02 by Which Tyler.

Anybody know why Reid doesn't feature?

Not happy with the 6-2 split. With Bailey covering 10 and 15 if Francis gets a bang on the head and an outside back gets a knock we are knackered.

Richard de Carpentier can probably do a decent job in the backs with all his 7s experience, as can Bayliss.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

French officials.

Ref: Adrien Marbot (France)
Assis Ref 1: Evan Urruzmendi (France)
Assis Ref 2: Stéphane Crapoix (France)
TMO: Patrick Dellac (France)

Quote:

Optimist
Kind of glad really. Will be nice to for Bath to have the opportunity to run amok. Certainly ought to with those respective teams.

Might not be the strongest 23 from their squad but it looks pretty decent to me and don't see any reason for any team, let alone us, to think "lets run amok!"

Agreed. We don't do 'amok' at the best of times.

Quote:

Optimist
Kind of glad really. Will be nice to for Bath to have the opportunity to run amok. Certainly ought to with those respective teams.

I remember that sort of thing being said when we were regularly challenging for the top 4 & ended up being soundly embarrassed. We need to play well & avoid stupid mistakes before being in a position to “run amok” If we play well & win I will be quite satisfied.

Always, always, always respect the opposition.

If we win playing well, even by a small score, I'll be happy. TBH if we lose, having played well, I'll be happy. We have to get rid of this blithe assumption that we have some gods-given right to win a game of rugby just because we're Bath. You'd have thought the last 20 years would have done it but it still seems to linger.

... IMHO, of course.

Now in Honolulu

To be honest, most Warriors fans would bite your hands off for a small defeat right now. One of our guys has put this together, which neatly demonstrates why we're not happy with the team selection - it's not about any 1 or 2 players, but the group as a whole, which should be miles off the pace today:

Bhatti - 1st start since 15 October
Turner - 1st start (for Glasgow) since 15 October
Berghan - 1st start since 15 April
Bean - 2nd start in the last 14 months
du Preez - 1st start for Glasgow
Wilson - 4th start in 5 after no starts in first 4 games of season
Neild - club debut
Mann - club debut

Dobie - 2nd start in last 8 months
Miotti - 3rd start at 10 in his 14 months at the club
McLean - started 3 of the last 4
McDowall - 6th start of the season - only started more in 2018/19 (11)
Jones - 1st start of the season
Steyn - started and captained in every game he has been available for (6)
Smith - started 3 of the last 5

Fraser - club debut
McBeth - 3rd appearance of the season after 6 in 2021/22 (all 9 from the bench)
Sordoni - 1st appearance since 8 October
Gray - 3rd appearance on the bench in the last 2 years (37 starts)
Ferrie - 3rd appearance
Kennedy - 5th appearance in the last 21 months
Weir - 2nd appearance in 7 months
Fifita - 1st appearance in just under 10 months

I was sorry to read that an Edinburgh fan is apparently coming to watch him least favourite team lose today! Each to their own, but there's generally great mutual support for each other in Europe - I remember watching Edinburgh v Munster in an HC QF, just before our own game and Sarries fans remarking that they couldn't believe that all the Warriors fans were so enthusiastically cheering Edinburgh on!

Anyway, hope we all have a good day regardless of score and performance!

Missing for Bath:

1. Obano, Boyce, Schoeman
2. -
3. Stuart
4. Ewels
5. McNally, Roux
6. Williams
7. Underhill, Cloete, Reid
8. Coetzee, Barbeary, Van Velze
9. -
10 -
11. Muir, Hamer-Webb
12. -
13. -
14. McConnochie
15. -

Still missing many of our biggest names but this is comfortably the strongest selection of the season so far.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:10:08:20:32 by Malco.

Yep, moving in the right direction and 4 or 5 good players due back in next 3-4 weeks (Boyce, underhill, cloete, coetzee, rmc).

Find it a little hard to get excited about Europe after years of humbling losses but great opportunity to sneak a win today I think given the respective selections. Good chance to get some momentum back.

Quote:

East_Stand_Warrior
To be honest, most Warriors fans would bite your hands off for a small defeat right now. One of our guys has put this together, which neatly demonstrates why we're not happy with the team selection - it's not about any 1 or 2 players, but the group as a whole, which should be miles off the pace today:
Bhatti - 1st start since 15 October
Turner - 1st start (for Glasgow) since 15 October
Berghan - 1st start since 15 April
Bean - 2nd start in the last 14 months
du Preez - 1st start for Glasgow
Wilson - 4th start in 5 after no starts in first 4 games of season
Neild - club debut
Mann - club debut
Dobie - 2nd start in last 8 months
Miotti - 3rd start at 10 in his 14 months at the club
McLean - started 3 of the last 4
McDowall - 6th start of the season - only started more in 2018/19 (11)
Jones - 1st start of the season
Steyn - started and captained in every game he has been available for (6)
Smith - started 3 of the last 5
Fraser - club debut
McBeth - 3rd appearance of the season after 6 in 2021/22 (all 9 from the bench)
Sordoni - 1st appearance since 8 October
Gray - 3rd appearance on the bench in the last 2 years (37 starts)
Ferrie - 3rd appearance
Kennedy - 5th appearance in the last 21 months
Weir - 2nd appearance in 7 months
Fifita - 1st appearance in just under 10 months

Anyway, hope we all have a good day regardless of score and performance!

Your guys should be well rested and fresh ESW! Hope you're already in the city and having a good weekend.

Quote:

charlieboa
Find it a little hard to get excited about Europe after years of humbling losses but great opportunity to sneak a win today I think given the respective selections. Good chance to get some momentum back.

I find it a little hard to get excited about Europe since they decided that fewer teams and higher quality matches was better; only to reverse that decision and decide that more teams an insane format, and cutting off those parts of Europe outside the 6N, but welcoming the South Afircans was a good idea.
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything

RAEBURN SHIELD

Quote:

East_Stand_Warrior
To be honest, most Warriors fans would bite your hands off for a small defeat right now. One of our guys has put this together, which neatly demonstrates why we're not happy with the team selection - it's not about any 1 or 2 players, but the group as a whole, which should be miles off the pace today

Rest assured Bath have a long standing habit of losing games they should win, look at our recent loss against Exeter in the prem cup...

Quote:

Which Tyler

Quote:

charlieboa
Find it a little hard to get excited about Europe after years of humbling losses but great opportunity to sneak a win today I think given the respective selections. Good chance to get some momentum back.

I find it a little hard to get excited about Europe since they decided that fewer teams and higher quality matches was better; only to reverse that decision and decide that more teams an insane format, and cutting off those parts of Europe outside the 6N, but welcoming the South Afircans was a good idea.

Yeah, can't wait for all the SA/French club semi finals determined almost exclusively by home advantage...

Saffa sides have no place in any European tournament.

They're obviously more used to this cold weather than Bath. Oh dear.

Quote:

joethefanatic
Always, always, always respect the opposition.
If we win playing well, even by a small score, I'll be happy. TBH if we lose, having played well, I'll be happy. We have to get rid of this blithe assumption that we have some gods-given right to win a game of rugby just because we're Bath. You'd have thought the last 20 years would have done it but it still seems to linger.

Took my lead from the Glasgow supporters above. Certainly lulled me into a false sense of security - Bath too, by the sound of it.

COYB!!

Close, but no cigar! Sounds like a good game.

Sounds like yet another European game where we didn’t play well enough.

Quote:

Mike the Taxi
Close, but no cigar! Sounds like a good game.

I’m afraid it wasn’t a good game. Absolutely awful performance from Bath and pretty embarrassing losing to Glasgow seconds.

Out of Europe by the middle of December is just not good enough. All the hope from a few weeks back has now totally gone.

No scrum, no lineout, no midfield defence and clueless attack.

We were dreadful & very fortunate to get a losing bonus point. We were 2nd best in every aspect, just like last season but it was our backs who were the most disappointing despite the quality of the players. We were like snails with a bar of soap whilst Glasgow were highly impressive. Maddock has made no difference whatsoever. And why do we take for ever forming up for line outs. It’s not as if we achieve any end result in most cases. Spencer’s slow delivery & endless box kicks are also tedious & predictable. This game was definitely a step back in our progression.

We don't seem to have the players to execute out limited gameplan. We probably have the players to play a more expansive gameplan but we're not at that point yet.

I like Spencer but fear he has a 'chilling effect' on our overall game. I'm sure it's instructed and it's done to control the game. We look better when we have the backup SH's who don't try to manage the game.

Everything we do is slower & more lethargic than most teams. We seem to get away with this approach as we are only losing matches narrowly but it’s not easy on the eye.

Absolutely agree Bear, i thought our backs were poor today as a unit and although Glasgow were offside a lot but you play the ref who I thought missed an awful lot of things today. They shut us down and how many balls did we drop today. Gallagher should have started at full back where he has been fantastic this season and DeG looked very rusty and hesitant with ball in hand.Glasgow put out a big physical pack but our forwards held their own and eventually got on top but Spencer wasted or slowed down a lot of our hard won possession. Bath need a scrumhalf whose first thought is to whip the ball away as we have a host of strike runners who are not being unleashed. The waiting for a 3 man pod to be set then crashing up off a standing start into a set defence is pointless. We were generating quick ruck ball but ended up waiting for Spencer to arrive, survey the scene and then box kick 15 yards because we had given Glasgow so much time to set a defensive line across the pitch. We got turned over several times with the ball sitting at the back of the ruck. At least we only gave them a 12 point start but that was enough and Jones try before half time was very poor.

I used to think our squad was decent enough and all the problems last season was due to poor coaching. Actually the squad isn’t good enough and there are far too many passengers for us to be competitive.

A second string Glasgow thoroughly deserved the win and the score line flattered Bath. Had they fielded their first team it would have been one of those 50+ point defeats we got used to last season.

JvG still has a massive job to get Bath competitive. Suggest a new scrum coach and lineout coach would be a good thing.

Guys, I don't know what to say tbh. I wasn't on the wind up when I described how disappointed we all were with the Glasgow team selection, and nor am I crowing now. None of us saw that coming. For Glasgow, it's a huge result - to blood some of those players in an away European tie and get a win is massive... fairly evidently we're not Leinster and don't have 4 teams of almost test standard where we can do that without blinking.

Didn't know what to make of Bath if I'm being brutally honest - you looked like you were intent on playing the JvG / Munster way, but with a pack unsuited to or incapable of playing it. You've obvious talent in the backline, but seemed determined to keep it in the pack at times.

Did enjoy my trip to the Rec though, and the friendliness of those sat nearby. You'll all obviously be made welcome at Scotstoun for the return, though will note that the differences between Scotstoun and the Rec are as pronounced as those between Glasgow and Bath... a gin, wine and fizz bar you will not find (I think you can get wine in a plastic pint glass however!).

Other than for that match, hope your season picks up again - with Rae, Baylis and Redpath playing for you, it's definitely in Scotland's interest!

Agree with all of this. Slow, tedious, unimaginative and predictable as ever but also another loss. Started really slowly and it's then hard to regain the initiative. At the start of the 2nd half I expected us to come out firing but we lost our first 2 line outs. If that was Glasgow's second team it highlights how poor our backs are at present as they were far more fluent and incisive. Joe C played really well with what little ball he had and Matt G always looks good but no momentum/ ball carriers and every side we play seems to win just about all of its line out ball. Thank God I didn't have to fork out £45 for that as mates on the terrace chose to.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:10:20:12:57 by TomReagan.

Quote:

East_Stand_Warrior
Guys, I don't know what to say tbh. I wasn't on the wind up when I described how disappointed we all were with the Glasgow team selection, and nor am I crowing now. None of us saw that coming. For Glasgow, it's a huge result - to blood some of those players in an away European tie and get a win is massive... fairly evidently we're not Leinster and don't have 4 teams of almost test standard where we can do that without blinking.
Didn't know what to make of Bath if I'm being brutally honest - you looked like you were intent on playing the JvG / Munster way, but with a pack unsuited to or incapable of playing it. You've obvious talent in the backline, but seemed determined to keep it in the pack at times.

Did enjoy my trip to the Rec though, and the friendliness of those sat nearby. You'll all obviously be made welcome at Scotstoun for the return, though will note that the differences between Scotstoun and the Rec are as pronounced as those between Glasgow and Bath... a gin, wine and fizz bar you will not find (I think you can get wine in a plastic pint glass however!).

Other than for that match, hope your season picks up again - with Rae, Baylis and Redpath playing for you, it's definitely in Scotland's interest!

I don’t think you realised what a hopeless team Bath have become. We are marginally better under JVG, but really aren’t good enough to play in Europe.

Listened on radio and sounded really really poor.

Maybe the reality is jvg et al have taken us from a truly terrible team last season to a just a bad one this.

Last few mins seemed to sum us up- lack the vision to attack where they had an injured man hobbling about. Lack the intelligence to get any jumpers up in the last lineout with about 25 seconds left in the game.

It's a worry.....

Just... Very disappointing. Radio said that Bath didn't even challenge on the last Glasgow throw? It was surprising to me that Charteris was retained over the summer, he frankly does not seem to be up to the job.

Quote:

hasta
Just... Very disappointing. Radio said that Bath didn't even challenge on the last Glasgow throw? It was surprising to me that Charteris was retained over the summer, he frankly does not seem to be up to the job.

I fear the same applies to Maddock. Individually we have good backs, probably better than the Glasgow 2nds, except Huw Jones, but we have the look of a bunch of individuals who’ve never set eyes on each other before. That’s down to the coaching.

Quote:

charlieboa
Maybe the reality is jvg et al have taken us from a truly terrible team last season to a just a bad one this.

JvG has certainly improved us to a degree, maybe we have to accept this is as far as we will ever go with the squad and coaching we have.

The backup players aren’t good enough to cover for injuries and the scrum, lineout and attack coaches equally aren’t good enough.

Bath offered nothing yesterday and Glasgow should have won by a lot more.

Quote:

hasta
Just... Very disappointing. Radio said that Bath didn't even challenge on the last Glasgow throw? It was surprising to me that Charteris was retained over the summer, he frankly does not seem to be up to the job.

On what basis does he "not seem to be up to the job"?

This is exactly the sort of knee jerk football supporter-esque nonsense that get right up my nose.

Do you go along to training? What qualifications do you have to make such a highly informed judgement?

If Charteris had been Captaining the team and standing at front jumper you would have a case.

It's no more informed to blame him as lineout coach than it is the team chef or the bus driver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:11:10:36:47 by Malco.

Quote:

Malco
If Charteris had been Captaining the team and standing at front jumper you would have a case.
It's no more informed to blame him as lineout coach than it is the team chef or the bus driver.

Malco, I love a bit of exaggeration but really? No, it would be bizarre if someone came on here and said the lineout isn't going well and that's the team chef or the bus driver's fault. Now coming on and putting linout issues at the - very large - feet of the lineout coach doesn't seem so far fetched. I certainly agree that the person leading the lineout on the pitch was mostly (almost entirely) the problem in that specific instance however.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

The coaches have no more control once the players are on the pitch than the bus driver or the chef.

The idea that some random bod listening to a rugby match on the radio should demand the sacking of an internationally respected lineout specialist because he didn't get the result he wanted is really quite extraordinary.

Quote:

BathMatt53

Quote:

Malco
If Charteris had been Captaining the team and standing at front jumper you would have a case.
It's no more informed to blame him as lineout coach than it is the team chef or the bus driver.

Malco, I love a bit of exaggeration but really? No, it would be bizarre if someone came on here and said the lineout isn't going well and that's the team chef or the bus driver's fault. Now coming on and putting linout issues at the - very large - feet of the lineout coach doesn't seem so far fetched. I certainly agree that the person leading the lineout on the pitch was mostly (almost entirely) the problem in that specific instance however.

Quote:

Malco
The coaches have no more control once the players are on the pitch than the bus driver or the chef.

But the job of the lineout coach during the week is to prepare the players on the pitch for situations such as this, both in terms of technical execution but also decision making. In that actual moment there wasn't much LC could do, but it would be nice to think that he would have prepped them at some point for these situations. Neither the bus driver nor chef would be working with them in the week on their lineout drills and strategy lessons.

As for whether he should be sacked, well if he had indeed covered this exact scenario and the players didn't execute it well then maybe there needs to be another lineout caller / leader given Ewels absence.

[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]

Quote:

hasta
Just... Very disappointing. Radio said that Bath didn't even challenge on the last Glasgow throw? It was surprising to me that Charteris was retained over the summer, he frankly does not seem to be up to the job.

No we didn't, just allowed them a free catch to kill off the game.

We were lacklustre for the whole 80 mins and just didn't seem to have a game plan, that has to be down to the coaches. Really though we had turned the corner under JvG, but that performance was reminiscent of the worst performances from last season. Still years away from even reaching the status of being an average team.

Quote:

OutsideBath
Still years away from even reaching the status of being an average team.

Not years away. There has been significant improvement. We just need to extend that improvement to the backs & become far more consistent overall. We don’t lack players of quality though I feel we need a Finn Russel at 10 & a change of approach from our first choice no.9.

Doest seem like a huge leap to place some responsibility on the chap whose job it is to coach the lineout when it's consistently rubbish whoever is hooker, second row, backrow....

And we hardly ever steal opposition throws...

Quote:

Bath Hammer

Quote:

OutsideBath
Still years away from even reaching the status of being an average team.

Not years away. There has been significant improvement. We just need to extend that improvement to the backs & become far more consistent overall. We don’t lack players of quality though I feel we need a Finn Russel at 10 & a change of approach from our first choice no.9.

I think the backs are being held back - I'm not too concerned about the quality (although it could do with some depth). It's the pack that can't live up to the gameplan. 1 year into JvG's plan, we aren't suddenly going to play an open and expansive game. But we need a pack that can deliver some physical dominance.

Outside of FLW and Hill (and Dunn maybe) I can't think of any other forwards consistently imposing their will on the game.

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The Bear
Outside of FLW and Hill (and Dunn maybe) I can't think of any other forwards consistently imposing their will on the game.

We sorely missed Miles Reid yesterday.

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CoochieCoo

Quote:

The Bear
Outside of FLW and Hill (and Dunn maybe) I can't think of any other forwards consistently imposing their will on the game.

We sorely missed Miles Reid yesterday.

He was warming up with the team before the game so assume he was rested. Strange decision given it was a must win game.

Quote:

The Bear

I think the backs are being held back - I'm not too concerned about the quality (although it could do with some depth). It's the pack that can't live up to the gameplan. 1 year into JvG's plan, we aren't suddenly going to play an open and expansive game. But we need a pack that can deliver some physical dominance.

I certainly agree about the forwards in the 1st half yesterday but they improved massively during the game & were probably on top at the end. Surely, though, you can see the difference in our back line in terms of speed & fluency compared to Glasgow & Quinn’s & most other teams. . There is no comparison & their under performance cannot all be blamed on the pack. We have the players but they don’t work effectively as a group.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:11:14:26:44 by Bath Hammer.

So I have waited a day before posting as I did not want to give the Mods extra work to do.

I am puzzled and I know that I have posted these sentiments several times over the past five years.

My puzzlement is as follows;

1. Why do other teams seem to be fleeter of foot AND THOUGHT, than Bath players.

2. Why do opposition players seem to make 10 yards before they are challenged whereas Bath players seem to be tackled almost immediately.

3. Why do opposition players who should be tackled seem to squirm out of our grasp and make another 15 metres.

4. Why do opposition players seem to always make good passes and put players into space and get them away.

5. Why do we win a lineout ball and often do not seem to spot that the player with the ball is not well protected and we then lose the ball on the maul rule instead of taking the opportunity of flipping it out.

6. Why does our scrum concede two penalties and then win one........with all of the same people.

7. What is the point of the very well flagged box kick that it seems invariably gives the ball to the opposition 30 yards from where you kicked it.

8. Lawrence and Redpath are considered to be a very dynamic force..............why do we choose to never pass to them or put them in space.

9. Why doesn't Spencer ever make a break himself.

10. Why do we never run and put the chip kick in to chase onto.

Yesterday was a dreadful "match".

I am astounded that we were even in the running to win it with 10 minutes to go..........but then maybe that is the point of the above...........if you play like we did then maybe you stay in touch and hope to kick a penalty and win the match.

However I think we we were very lucky not to be down by 20 points with 10 minutes to go.

On a separate point I genuinely 90%+ enjoy my working day. There is the odd thing, mostly FCA or Banking related that is irritating. I cannot believe that any of the Bath players enjoyed their day at the office yesterday!

If I was a Bath player I would very definitely be looking to leave as to have to play that type of rugby would "do my head in"!!

Totally agree with just about everything you've said bsj (Although struggling with the concept of being 90% happy with a job involving banking/finance!).

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
So I have waited a day before posting as I did not want to give the Mods extra work to do.
I am puzzled and I know that I have posted these sentiments several times over the past five years.

My puzzlement is as follows;

1. Why do other teams seem to be fleeter of foot AND THOUGHT, than Bath players.

2. Why do opposition players seem to make 10 yards before they are challenged whereas Bath players seem to be tackled almost immediately.

3. Why do opposition players who should be tackled seem to squirm out of our grasp and make another 15 metres.

4. Why do opposition players seem to always make good passes and put players into space and get them away.

5. Why do we win a lineout ball and often do not seem to spot that the player with the ball is not well protected and we then lose the ball on the maul rule instead of taking the opportunity of flipping it out.

6. Why does our scrum concede two penalties and then win one........with all of the same people.

7. What is the point of the very well flagged box kick that it seems invariably gives the ball to the opposition 30 yards from where you kicked it.

8. Lawrence and Redpath are considered to be a very dynamic force..............why do we choose to never pass to them or put them in space.

9. Why doesn't Spencer ever make a break himself.

10. Why do we never run and put the chip kick in to chase onto.

11. Why can't we execute a kick pass from a midfield position to Gallagher or JoCo on the wing rather than just trying to barge out way over endlessly?

Quote:

Bath Supporter Jack
So I have waited a day before posting as I did not want to give the Mods extra work to do.
I am puzzled and I know that I have posted these sentiments several times over the past five years.

My puzzlement is as follows;

1. Why do other teams seem to be fleeter of foot AND THOUGHT, than Bath players.

2. Why do opposition players seem to make 10 yards before they are challenged whereas Bath players seem to be tackled almost immediately.

3. Why do opposition players who should be tackled seem to squirm out of our grasp and make another 15 metres.

4. Why do opposition players seem to always make good passes and put players into space and get them away.

5. Why do we win a lineout ball and often do not seem to spot that the player with the ball is not well protected and we then lose the ball on the maul rule instead of taking the opportunity of flipping it out.

6. Why does our scrum concede two penalties and then win one........with all of the same people.

7. What is the point of the very well flagged box kick that it seems invariably gives the ball to the opposition 30 yards from where you kicked it.

8. Lawrence and Redpath are considered to be a very dynamic force..............why do we choose to never pass to them or put them in space.

9. Why doesn't Spencer ever make a break himself.

10. Why do we never run and put the chip kick in to chase onto.

Yesterday was a dreadful "match".

I am astounded that we were even in the running to win it with 10 minutes to go..........but then maybe that is the point of the above...........if you play like we did then maybe you stay in touch and hope to kick a penalty and win the match.

However I think we we were very lucky not to be down by 20 points with 10 minutes to go.

On a separate point I genuinely 90%+ enjoy my working day. There is the odd thing, mostly FCA or Banking related that is irritating. I cannot believe that any of the Bath players enjoyed their day at the office yesterday!

If I was a Bath player I would very definitely be looking to leave as to have to play that type of rugby would "do my head in"!!

Agree with everything you say there BSJ and all points should have been addressed by our coaching team by now. In addition if you were a top player would you want to join Bath and play such dreadful losing rugby?

Personally I wouldn't mind playing awful rugby if I won trophies in the process, but Bath are a long way from even looking at a trophy let alone picking it up.

Quote:

BFJ
I genuinely 90%+ enjoy my working day.

I think you are mixing enjoyment with outcome. I doubt there is a single player or coach who would admit to enjoying their week less than 90+% of the time. After all, who would not enjoy running around with a rugby ball as a profession.

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Bath Hammer

Quote:

The Bear

I think the backs are being held back - I'm not too concerned about the quality (although it could do with some depth). It's the pack that can't live up to the gameplan. 1 year into JvG's plan, we aren't suddenly going to play an open and expansive game. But we need a pack that can deliver some physical dominance.

I certainly agree about the forwards in the 1st half yesterday but they improved massively during the game & were probably on top at the end. Surely, though, you can see the difference in our back line in terms of speed & fluency compared to Glasgow & Quinn’s & most other teams. . There is no comparison & their under performance cannot all be blamed on the pack. We have the players but they don’t work effectively as a group.

Because we are in year 1 of JvG's reign and his focus areas do not include playing an expansive game. Rightly, he wants the foundations in place first - the problem is though that they don't seem to be coming along either (or maybe 1 step forward, 2 steps back). Hard to deliver the fundamentals though when you're pack don't give you consistentcy.

Agree with many of your points bsj.

The one that gets me is how our players consistently fail to accurately execute 5-10 yd passes.... its been happening for years and staggers me.

Listening yesterday was soul sapping- other clubs have a style and identity where Glasgow for example can throw together a team of new joiners, second string, injury returnees and they know what they are doing whilst our fairly consistently selected team look clueless.

Fingers crossed by end of the season we look better

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by

Quote:

East_Stand_Warrior
To be honest, most Warriors fans would bite your hands off for a small defeat right now. One of our guys has put this together, which neatly demonstrates why we're not happy with the team selection - it's not about any 1 or 2 players, but the group as a whole, which should be miles off the pace today

Rest assured Bath have a long standing habit of losing games they should win, look at our recent loss against Exeter in the prem cup...

Whilst I do think we are behind a lot of teams physically - doesn't help when half your best players are injured.

But more importantly, as I said before the match we seem play at a much lower intensity when we go into a game expecting a win, and we have done for a long, long time...

Quote:

charlieboa
Listening yesterday was soul sapping- other clubs have a style and identity where Glasgow for example can throw together a team of new joiners, second string, injury returnees and they know what they are doing whilst our fairly consistently selected team look clueless.

Believe me it was worse than soul sapping to be at the game yesterday. It’s a good point about second string players not fitting in seamlessly. This has been a strength at Saracens for years, replacements just play to the game plan.

Bath’s second string players clearly aren’t good enough, but equally they seem to be sent out without a clear game plan which is a coaching issue.

At present the scrum and lineout is letting the side down and preventing us from being successful. JVG needs to sort that out quickly otherwise next season will be a failure like this one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:12:11:18:08:56 by OutsideBath.

Tom

Its only when my day job bumps into the FCA that it is not such good fun.

Also the banking system is shambolic.........in fact a journo is interviewing me in mid-January about my dreadful and ongoing awful experience with Banks.

Fivesticks I am sure all rugby players enjoy what they do............however when you play like Bath I am sure some of the players think how much better would it be at another Club.

Lawrence must wonder what's going on. At underfunded Worcester they played dynamic front foot rugby. Now he is at Bath with all the resources and they play like they are terrified.....

Then it all makes sense!

I so agree with all your comments BSJ, some of which replicate better what I was trying to say Of all those points it’s the lack of speed of thought, word & deed which most annoys me. What I don’t agree with is that it has to take years for a back line with players of quality like ours to reach the standard of Glasgow 2nds or that our 2nd string players are any worse than those of other teams.

I have waited to mull over the game from Saturday and view the response from our supporters. I personally think we have to think exactly what JVG and his team inherited this season.

It is no play on words to state we were an absolute shower of **** in terms of performance, morale, fitness and as a professional set up.

I personally think what JVG and his team has done in a very short space of time is not only encouraging it is amazing - bar the Sale game we have been competitive in every game and but for the "roll of the dice" we would have won a lot more games than we have.

So let us put everything in perspective - this year was always going to be challenging with a tinge of positivity but remember this is not JVG's squad and our 2 shining lights so far this season have been from the incredibly sad demise of Worcester.

Glasgow are an incredibly talented side with a huge depth of talent - like us of the past they often under perform but they are a good side.

We have yet again suffered a hugely significant quantity of injuries to very key players which is unbelievable once again and as such we have definitely (especially in last 2 games suffered in the front row).

We are making huge strides but I do not think we can start criticising the coaching team at this stage given where we were and we need to be patient. Remember many of our players we so bereft of anything at the end of last season - much of the work is to build the squad back up and by all accounts and speaking to a few of the players they have done an amazing job - nothing but praise and positive comments.

JVG & Co will have a solid plan of players they wish to bring in to compliment the nucleus of players they intend to keep and implement the game plan - but this all takes time, but it has been a long time since I felt this positive about our future despite a disappointing loss.

Where is JJ by the way? Not in the 23, even with a 6/2 bench split. Have I missed something on the injury front?

I had some optimism for the future, but losing to Glasgow 2nds in the manner we did has left me feeling we are going nowhere again. We have fundamental problems with the scrum and lineout which should have been resolved by now. Not sure what's going on with the attack either as there is absolutely no invention whatsoever.

As an aside it really irritates me when we stroll into the lineout when we're losing (after wasting too long having a chat), do the hokey cokey and promptly throw the ball to the opposition. Wish they'd show some urgency at least.

That was the worst performance of the season for me. we had some form of momentum going into the match, all of which seemed to be dissipated within 5 minutes of the start. No energy, no commitment, no passion, no urgency. Embarrassed to have taken friends there who paid over £50 for the "privilege"
Totally pathetic!

Quote:

OutsideBath
As an aside it really irritates me when we stroll into the lineout when we're losing (after wasting too long having a chat), do the hokey cokey and promptly throw the ball to the opposition. Wish they'd show some urgency at least.

That is a very fair and pertinent observation.

Perhaps if the lineout coach had the foresight and nous to introduce the Funky Chicken we might see better outcomes?

Dare I say it despite his passion for the team and physicality on the pitch is Dunn the right man as his darts have been all over the place last season and this season. I know that it is not just throwing in but also the timing of the lifting etc. However whoever was calling the line out should be held accountable and Glasgow selections were clever as well.

They obviously identified that our line out has been an area of concern and they picked 3 giants in the second row, Bean 6"7, 130kg, Du Preez 6"11 130kg and Richie Gray 6"10 128kg on the bench. The banker ball in the line out is front ball especially if you are trying to through over these lighthouses and you are asking a lot of the lifters to get your jumpers up to win or compete.

Looking at the size and bulk of their pack IMHO actually held our own in the scrum considering their starting front row are all seasoned multi cap internationalists. We lost Mozorov late but it was great to see Boyce back and i sincerely hope it is nothing serious with young Cordwell. Despite how bad our attack was and I lay the blame on one of our international "stars"a dithering Spencer and his poor game management we could and should have won.