Bath
WHEN WILL THERE BE GOOD NEWS? BATH v WASPS
Bailey: game time?
By PG Tips
September 20 2022
Two games into the new regime and the flames of hope have turned into cooling embers. Two defeats, a failure to gain even a losing bonus point at home, and yet again a mounting injury list would trouble the most optimistic supporter. More concerning still was the manner of defeat against Sale: predictable game plan, passive breakdown and pallid attempts at attack. Wasps, one place below Bath on points difference, must be relishing the opportunity of Friday evening. So can Bath dash their hopes and somehow find some good news?
This fixture has had a buzz about it for decades, first through top of the table rivalry then in style of play, more recently each club spotting exploitable weakness in the opposition. Whatever the result, the games have usually been highly entertaining. For all the positivity and energy emanating from the Bath squad in pre-season, the only evidence of buzz last Saturday came when the backs tore up the gameplan script, sought space in attack and snatched two smart consolation tries. If Bath continue with the “pragmatic” approach of the opening fixtures it seems likely that the buzz, entertainment and ultimately winning rugby, will be the preserve of Wasps.
Wasps have also lost their opening two matches, but on the first weekend led 21-0 at Kingsholm at half time. Bristol dented their confidence last week, but with Crossdale, Kibirige and Bassett in their backs they should be sharp in attack. No pack containing Launchbury, the Willis brothers and a choice between Barbeary, Shields and Carr should be taken lightly- especially given Bath’s poor showing at the breakdown against Sale. In search of their first win, expect Wasps to bring their usual fast-paced, all action style in attack with plenty of dummy runners. Their back three, pacy and counterattack minded, will look to punish any sloppy tactical kicking. The one area where they may be vulnerable could be the front row, but Bath would have to make much better use of any edge in the scrum than they did last Saturday.
So what should be the way ahead for Bath and how can they turn bad to good? I suspect Johann van Graan will not want to make too many changes in only his third game, but some will be forced on him. Ben Spencer & Jaco Coetzee, both bright sparks in the first half, were casualties last week and in a further depressing bulletin we learn that Sam Underhill and Beno Obano will be out for long periods following surgery. If the same gameplan is the chosen approach it needs much better execution with swifter, more accurate box-kicks, greater venom and numbers at the breakdown and at least some variety in attack. The team is also crying out for decisive, clear-sighted on field leadership as the debacle of failing to score against 13 men with a dominant scrum proved. If last week’s approach to game management was seen as the answer, what on earth was the question? I hope that some of last season’s youthful bright hopefuls Richards, Bailey, Ojomoh, Reid (if fit) get some game time. If given their head they could bring a more liberated attitude to attack and some much-needed incision.
There may be a long way to go this season, but the psychology of competitive sport can be a supporting friend or a toxic critic. A second home defeat in a row will leave Bath in a parlous place. Supporters and the squad need the coaching group to find some buzz, some sting and some good news - starting on Friday.
Possible Teams:
Bath: 1 Lewis Boyce, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Aranos Coetzee, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Josh McNally, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Wesley White, 8 Richard de Carpentier. 9 Louis Schreuder, 10. Piers Francis. 11. Will Muir, 12. Cameron Redpath, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 14 Joe Cokanasiga. 15 Tom de Glanville.
Replacements: 16 Tom Doughty, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Will Stuart, 19 Will Spencer, 20 GJ van Velze. 21 Max Green, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Max Ojomoh.
Wasps: Hislop, Cruse, Ryan, Launchbury, McDonald, T Willis, J Willis, Barbeary. Porter, Atkinson. Bassett, Odendaal, Spink, Kibirige. Crossdale.
Replacements; Frost, West, Alo, Shields, Carr. Robson, Mills, Haydon-Wood.
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StumbleuponWHEN WILL THERE BE GOOD NEWS? BATH v WASPS. Team's Up!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 20/09/2022 14:40
20/09/2022 14:40
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:27:08:41:05 by P G Tips.
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Agree with every word of that PGT. I hope JVG will begin to show faith in the youngsters soon but think you're right that it makes sense to give those players who under-performed last week the chance to make amends. If Tom Ellis is fit, as I think was reported, I'd definitely have him in the team to add some grunt to a very lightweight back row.
I don't think the back row will look like that.
White looked too lightweight at openside and I don't see him being kept there. I can see De Carpentier starting at 7, Bayliss moving to 8 and Reid coming in at 6. Otherwise Van Velze starting at 8 if they decide they need more heft.
I have to say that I fear for us at the breakdown against Wasps.
I also think we will see Stuart starting at 3 and Quinn coming into the second row.
9 is a real problem if Spencer can't make it. We are set up to play off 9, which is why we have been starting Francis at 10. If Schreuder plays I think we have to start Bailey and and then the question is whether we stick with the same centres or shift Francis out to 12. I don't see us dropping Joseph, so the choice would be Francis or Redpath at 12. I personally don't think Redpath has done anything to warrant being dropped and don't see the sense in replacing him with Francis who hasn't been playing there.
I want to see Muir and McConnochie as our starting wings.
White looked too lightweight at openside and I don't see him being kept there. I can see De Carpentier starting at 7, Bayliss moving to 8 and Reid coming in at 6. Otherwise Van Velze starting at 8 if they decide they need more heft.
I have to say that I fear for us at the breakdown against Wasps.
I also think we will see Stuart starting at 3 and Quinn coming into the second row.
9 is a real problem if Spencer can't make it. We are set up to play off 9, which is why we have been starting Francis at 10. If Schreuder plays I think we have to start Bailey and and then the question is whether we stick with the same centres or shift Francis out to 12. I don't see us dropping Joseph, so the choice would be Francis or Redpath at 12. I personally don't think Redpath has done anything to warrant being dropped and don't see the sense in replacing him with Francis who hasn't been playing there.
I want to see Muir and McConnochie as our starting wings.
Could be so Malco, though I’ve no idea yet how keen JvG will be to shuffle his pack.
Personally I would hope to see Richards at 6 a few times this season. Quinn Roux is a good shout - but is he fit?
PG
Personally I would hope to see Richards at 6 a few times this season. Quinn Roux is a good shout - but is he fit?
PG
Attwood seems to have made an impact on his return, but will we need to manage his game time to keep him fit through out the season? I think JvG is going to have to shuffle the pack based on injuries and preservation given the apparent attritional game plan. But appreciate that some consistency of selection is required to build partnerships and hopefully form!
I believe having 2 tighthead locks in the second row together doesnt work. Yes our scrum is looking good but all other areas are worse because of it for example the lack of speed and skill level. We are very slow to the break downs and pur forward are slow generally around the pitch. We need to start Richards in the 2nd row with either Attwood or Roux. Its key for Bath to get the right balance in all positions. If Ben Spencer is injured then Piers Francis cant start at 10 due to the style of play both Spencer and Francis play.
I think its about time JJ got dropped, he certainly seems too comfortable and needs competition for his place. Lets give Butt a proper go at 13. Ojomoh and redpath cant play togther in the centres neither are 13's and will get shown up defensively.
We are only 2 games in and between now and the end of the season alot will change and if we play like we did against Bristol we have nothing to worry about.
I think its about time JJ got dropped, he certainly seems too comfortable and needs competition for his place. Lets give Butt a proper go at 13. Ojomoh and redpath cant play togther in the centres neither are 13's and will get shown up defensively.
We are only 2 games in and between now and the end of the season alot will change and if we play like we did against Bristol we have nothing to worry about.
I don’t think we should be worrying about which wingers are selected as they won’t get the ball anyway.
The key for me is will our defensive systems be good enough to stop Wasps?
The key for me is will our defensive systems be good enough to stop Wasps?
Quote:OutsideBath
I don’t think we should be worrying about which wingers are selected as they won’t get the ball anyway.
The key for me is will our defensive systems be good enough to stop Wasps?
If we're just going to kick the ball up in the air, picking JC4 makes no sense. It would better to pick Josh Bayliss out there. Hold on....
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
I haven't seen a single thing about Cokanasiga in the last 18 months outside of his weight and height that would make me pick him ahead of McC, Muir or GHW.
Quote:OutsideBath
I don’t think we should be worrying about which wingers are selected as they won’t get the ball anyway.
The key for me is will our defensive systems be good enough to stop Wasps?
That's very much the point. Muir and McConnochie are very much more likely to come infield and make themselves involved. Cokanasiga seems to want to stay out wide and appears uninterested in putting his head in to me. He' comes across as a flat track bully at times who doesn't put his body on the line when things aren't going our way. Maybe due to the injuries he has had.
Personally a massive fan of muir and rmc.
They are aerially excellent and invariably beat the first few men either by stepping them or surprising them with their strength.
Ghw next in line with coko really needing to prove he offers much at all these days.
They are aerially excellent and invariably beat the first few men either by stepping them or surprising them with their strength.
Ghw next in line with coko really needing to prove he offers much at all these days.
"White looked too lightweight at openside and I don't see him being kept there"
If he's too lightweight at 7, where will he play? Scrum half?
I really, really, hope (agree with above) that JVG drops Joseph and Cokanasiga. I'll draw the parallel with Manchester United who were abject for 2 games under a new manager, until Ten Haag asserted his authority by dropping the £80m Maguire and the sacred uber-ego Ronaldo, and suddenly the youngsters like Sancho and Rashford were liberated.
If he's too lightweight at 7, where will he play? Scrum half?
I really, really, hope (agree with above) that JVG drops Joseph and Cokanasiga. I'll draw the parallel with Manchester United who were abject for 2 games under a new manager, until Ten Haag asserted his authority by dropping the £80m Maguire and the sacred uber-ego Ronaldo, and suddenly the youngsters like Sancho and Rashford were liberated.
There's just such a massive gap between the idea of Cokanasiga and the reality. Really not sure what's going on there and if he needs more time with the sports psychologists.
I watched Big Joe carefully away at Worcester in the final game of last season and he just looked lost, like he didn’t know where to be or what to do. He fell off 4 or 5 first up tackles too, it’s like going through the motions of tackling is enough for him but completing it was too difficult, a guy his size should be able to dominate most players on or off the ball. It’s such a shame.
Quote:joethefanatic
If we're just going to kick the ball up in the air, picking JC4 makes no sense
Surely it makes a lot of sense? In theory, being 6'4", he's going to win the all in the air, carry it on a few metres in one hand, tie up 2 defenders, and offload it out the back-door as someone wraps around in support!
But you're right, a more reliable way to get the ball in his hands would be to just pass it to him.
Did anyone see Attwoods Instagram, could be rested this weekend to let his stitches heal.
I thought JJ Tonks was highly regarded at Saints, surprised he hasn’t been in the mix.
I thought JJ Tonks was highly regarded at Saints, surprised he hasn’t been in the mix.
Quote:Optimist
I really, really, hope (agree with above) that JVG drops Joseph and Cokanasiga. I'll draw the parallel with Manchester United who were abject for 2 games under a new manager, until Ten Haag asserted his authority by dropping the £80m Maguire and the sacred uber-ego Ronaldo, and suddenly the youngsters like Sancho and Rashford were liberated.
I agree, JJ and Coko seemed disinterested on Saturday. Are they great players in a great team but feel they are currently being let down by the rest of the team so don’t try as hard
Not great players, not a great team by any stretch of the imagination, others in team probably less disappointing than them. The last bit I agree with-for whatever reason they're not playing at the levels you'd expect!
I'd be happy for Roux or Spencer to give Attwood a rest. One thing we have this year is depth in the 2R. Funny how the back row hasn't matched the impact of the front 5 in the 2 games we've seen thus far. In past seasons, it's felt like the back row has been carrying the pack. In fact, a few carries from Coetzee aside, and I know Underhill, Cloete, and Reid have been missing, but I'd say our back row has been anonymous and outplayed for the first 160 minutes of the season.
I think JCok is a great option in a confident team going forward, but not great in a team that's starved of the ball on the back foot or one that kicks ball away. Defence isn't his strength, nor is kick chase, and he doesn't get involved as much as I'd like (happened with Eng in that first test v Oz, so it's not just how we play). For our game plan, I'd always pick ahead of him a hard-working and aerially-proficient winger/full back, i.e. Muir, McCon, Gallagher, GHW.
On JJ, I still like him a lot. He's an experienced head who is still one of the finest defenders. I'd also stick him with Redpath for the first 6 games and see if they develop a partnership. He may have lost a yard of pace, and I know reputation counts for nowt, but in a defensively-minded team, I still think he's one of our most important players, especially when the drop off between him and our next 13 (Butt?) is pretty significant. Yes, he's not playing great, but no one is, but I think if/when we win, it'll be thanks to him having an impact on the game and I think we're less likely to win without him.
I think JCok is a great option in a confident team going forward, but not great in a team that's starved of the ball on the back foot or one that kicks ball away. Defence isn't his strength, nor is kick chase, and he doesn't get involved as much as I'd like (happened with Eng in that first test v Oz, so it's not just how we play). For our game plan, I'd always pick ahead of him a hard-working and aerially-proficient winger/full back, i.e. Muir, McCon, Gallagher, GHW.
On JJ, I still like him a lot. He's an experienced head who is still one of the finest defenders. I'd also stick him with Redpath for the first 6 games and see if they develop a partnership. He may have lost a yard of pace, and I know reputation counts for nowt, but in a defensively-minded team, I still think he's one of our most important players, especially when the drop off between him and our next 13 (Butt?) is pretty significant. Yes, he's not playing great, but no one is, but I think if/when we win, it'll be thanks to him having an impact on the game and I think we're less likely to win without him.
"I think JCok is a great option in a confident team going forward"
I think any winger is a great option in those circumstances. I want players who influence whether we win or not, not by how much.
As for JJ - I think we've all been arguing the same for years - but he's a stiletto that's gone blunt. If we want blunt, then we have to give Butt some opportunities.
Also - it's all very well spending 6 games developing the JJ/CR partnership, but CR will be off as soon as the Ints start.
I think any winger is a great option in those circumstances. I want players who influence whether we win or not, not by how much.
As for JJ - I think we've all been arguing the same for years - but he's a stiletto that's gone blunt. If we want blunt, then we have to give Butt some opportunities.
Also - it's all very well spending 6 games developing the JJ/CR partnership, but CR will be off as soon as the Ints start.
We're agreed – I want players like that too, Opti. And I don't think JCok is one of them – and other wingers are better suited to our situation i.e. we kick it in the air a lot, we don't have much ball, we defend a lot. Potter or Porter at Leicester, Murley at Quins, Nowell at Exe... they work their socks off and are effective with or without the ball. Muir is kind of similar. He makes something in a game where we have 30% possession, claims box kicks, gallops down the touchline all day. I don't see that in JCok, but the headlines get written about him when England beat Japan by 50 points. Guess that's the joy of being a very big winger – but we really can't afford a winger like that right now, especially if that winger drops restarts and gets turned inside out in defence.
On CR, I actually don't think he's done much wrong these first few games. We had no ball but he made a break or two last weekend and I don't see other sides streaming through our centres. Hence, I'd keep in the team and hope that if we get some parity elsewhere, he's got the class to deliver the goods. I don't see much merit in putting in Mojo and Butt on Friday - we need to win at any costs, and I really think that's more likely with two internationals in the centres (as flying in the face of yoof development as that might sound).
On CR, I actually don't think he's done much wrong these first few games. We had no ball but he made a break or two last weekend and I don't see other sides streaming through our centres. Hence, I'd keep in the team and hope that if we get some parity elsewhere, he's got the class to deliver the goods. I don't see much merit in putting in Mojo and Butt on Friday - we need to win at any costs, and I really think that's more likely with two internationals in the centres (as flying in the face of yoof development as that might sound).
Quote:dr.bath1865
especially when the drop off between him and our next 13 (Butt?) is pretty significant.
I'm not sure this is the case in 2022. The JJ of 5 years ago maybe but the 31 year old JJ not so much IMO. I still think that Butt could be an Esterhuizen / Atkinson style 12 option when we decide to switch things up.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
"we need to win at any costs"
I agree with that statement. But the reason we need to win at any costs, is because we lost (narrowly) to a beatable Bristol side and (very, very badly) to a vulnerable Sale side after a close-season overhaul to correct the disasters of last season.
Repeatedly picking JJ is starting to conform to that well-known definition of madness.
I agree with that statement. But the reason we need to win at any costs, is because we lost (narrowly) to a beatable Bristol side and (very, very badly) to a vulnerable Sale side after a close-season overhaul to correct the disasters of last season.
Repeatedly picking JJ is starting to conform to that well-known definition of madness.
Quote:Optimist
"we need to win at any costs"
I agree with that statement. But the reason we need to win at any costs, is because we lost (narrowly) to a beatable Bristol side and (very, very badly) to a vulnerable Sale side after a close-season overhaul to correct the disasters of last season.
Repeatedly picking JJ is starting to conform to that well-known definition of madness.
We certainly need to win at all costs, the question is do we have what it takes though? Certainly things need to change and aside from injury enforced changes the underperformers from last week should be dropped.
Rampant on the Wuss/Wasps thread has noticed that Wasps have filed a notice of intention to appoint an administrator today!
I wonder if that will affect Friday? I'm assuming not, but they might face Wuss-like problems later on.
I wonder if that will affect Friday? I'm assuming not, but they might face Wuss-like problems later on.
- wrong thread -
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:21:17:17:53 by BathMatt53.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:21:17:17:53 by BathMatt53.
Quote:I’ve been wondering the same thing, Sarries obviously played out the rest of the season after being relegated, but these were still a fully functioning business rather than in administration. I guess we’ll have to see what the RFU and Premiership Rugby come up with.SJS
Rampant on the Wuss/Wasps thread has noticed that Wasps have filed a notice of intention to appoint an administrator today!
I wonder if that will affect Friday? I'm assuming not, but they might face Wuss-like problems later on.
I think & hope JvG will have looked closely at the performance levels & contribution of each player on Saturday, leave out those who made minimal impact & bring in the strongest replacements. It is vital that we give ourselves a decent chance of winning this match & regaining a modicum of confidence. I don’t think we will unless we achieve the most amazing turnaround in 6 days but we can but hope.
Quote:dcshQuote:I’ve been wondering the same thing, Sarries obviously played out the rest of the season after being relegated, but these were still a fully functioning business rather than in administration. I guess we’ll have to see what the RFU and Premiership Rugby come up with.SJS
Rampant on the Wuss/Wasps thread has noticed that Wasps have filed a notice of intention to appoint an administrator today!
I wonder if that will affect Friday? I'm assuming not, but they might face Wuss-like problems later on.
Bath Rugby on FB say the game goes on as planned.
Great. Appears to be the difference between appointing an administrator and being in administration.
I would definitely pick butt over JJ. People keep saying how great defensively joseph is, including on this thread, but we have been woeful in defence for at least2 years now. The 2 things don't add up
JC4 played brilliantly for half a season before being broken by England. Since then, he has looked so far off being a premiership quality wing let alone an international wing, and should be nowhere near starting.
Having said all that the ball will rarely make it past 10 in attack it would seem so we may as well just pick the best tacklers in the outside backs.
I can't see us winning on Friday night. I think wasps will do to us what sale did and beat us up in the backrow. Ironically the area before the season started I thought we'd be strongest in
JC4 played brilliantly for half a season before being broken by England. Since then, he has looked so far off being a premiership quality wing let alone an international wing, and should be nowhere near starting.
Having said all that the ball will rarely make it past 10 in attack it would seem so we may as well just pick the best tacklers in the outside backs.
I can't see us winning on Friday night. I think wasps will do to us what sale did and beat us up in the backrow. Ironically the area before the season started I thought we'd be strongest in
Quote:dcsh
Great. Appears to be the difference between appointing an administrator and being in administration.
For anyone interested in the difference, what constitutes ‘in administration’ is defined by schedule B to the Insolvency Act 1986:
“ 116
NATURE OF ADMINISTRATION
Administration
1(1)For the purposes of this Act “administrator” of a company means a person appointed under this Schedule to manage the company’s affairs, business and property.
(2)For the purposes of this Act—
(a)a company is “in administration” while the appointment of an administrator of the company has effect,
(b)a company “enters administration” when the appointment of an administrator takes effect,
(c)a company ceases to be in administration when the appointment of an administrator of the company ceases to have effect in accordance with this Schedule, and
(d)a company does not cease to be in administration merely because an administrator vacates office (by reason of resignation, death or otherwise) or is removed from office.”
What is of particular interest is para 27 of schedule B:
“ Notice of intention to appoint
27(1)A person who gives notice of intention to appoint under paragraph 26 shall file with the court as soon as is reasonably practicable a copy of—
(a)the notice, and
(b)any document accompanying it.
(2)The copy filed under sub-paragraph (1) must be accompanied by a statutory declaration made by or on behalf of the person who proposes to make the appointment—
(a)that the company is or is likely to become unable to pay its debts,
(b)that the company is not in liquidation, and
(c)that, so far as the person making the statement is able to ascertain, the appointment is not prevented by paragraphs 23 to 25, and
(d)to such additional effect, and giving such information, as may be prescribed.
(3)A statutory declaration under sub-paragraph (2) must—
(a)be in the prescribed form, and
(b)be made during the prescribed period.
(4)A person commits an offence if in a statutory declaration under sub-paragraph (2) he makes a statement—
(a)which is false, and
(b)which he does not reasonably believe to be true.”
So the directors of Wasps have to make a stat dec affirming that the company is unable to pay its debts as they fall due (the legal definition of insolvent).
I struggle to see how they can reconcile doing that with saying it’s a holding tactic…
Team Up:
Tom Dunn will captain Bath Rugby for the first time in the Gallagher Premiership when Wasps visit The Rec on Friday night (kick-off 19:45).
The hooker has been an ever-present so far this season and lines up in the front row alongside Lewis Boyce and Will Stuart – the latter will be making his 50th outing in Blue, Black and White.
Second rows Dave Attwood and Josh McNally pair up for the third game running while Richard de Carpentier earns a first start of the season from Number 8, replacing Jaco Coetzee who will be out of action for 10 weeks due to an ankle injury picked up against Sale Sharks.
Miles Reid comes in for his maiden appearance of 2022/23 and Chris Cloete, returning from a minor injury sustained in Round 1, completes the back row.
At scrum-half, Louis Schreuder makes his full Bath debut with Ben Spencer sidelined with concussion. Homegrown duo Orlando Bailey and Max Ojomoh are outside him at fly-half and inside centre respectively.
Try scorers last time out Joe Cokanasiga and Tom de Glanville continue in the back three with Will Muir. Jonathan Joseph continues at 13.
On the bench, Quinn Roux is in line for his Bath Rugby debut while Max Green could make his first appearance of the season.
Bath Rugby team to play Wasps
15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Muir, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Louis Schreuder; 1 Lewis Boyce, 2 Tom Dunn ©, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Josh McNally, 6 Miles Reid, 7 Chris Cloete, 8 Richard de Carpentier
Impact players
16 Tom Doughty, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Aranos Coetzee, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 GJ van Velze, 21 Max Green, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Josh Bayliss
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Tom Dunn will captain Bath Rugby for the first time in the Gallagher Premiership when Wasps visit The Rec on Friday night (kick-off 19:45).
The hooker has been an ever-present so far this season and lines up in the front row alongside Lewis Boyce and Will Stuart – the latter will be making his 50th outing in Blue, Black and White.
Second rows Dave Attwood and Josh McNally pair up for the third game running while Richard de Carpentier earns a first start of the season from Number 8, replacing Jaco Coetzee who will be out of action for 10 weeks due to an ankle injury picked up against Sale Sharks.
Miles Reid comes in for his maiden appearance of 2022/23 and Chris Cloete, returning from a minor injury sustained in Round 1, completes the back row.
At scrum-half, Louis Schreuder makes his full Bath debut with Ben Spencer sidelined with concussion. Homegrown duo Orlando Bailey and Max Ojomoh are outside him at fly-half and inside centre respectively.
Try scorers last time out Joe Cokanasiga and Tom de Glanville continue in the back three with Will Muir. Jonathan Joseph continues at 13.
On the bench, Quinn Roux is in line for his Bath Rugby debut while Max Green could make his first appearance of the season.
Bath Rugby team to play Wasps
15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Muir, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Louis Schreuder; 1 Lewis Boyce, 2 Tom Dunn ©, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Josh McNally, 6 Miles Reid, 7 Chris Cloete, 8 Richard de Carpentier
Impact players
16 Tom Doughty, 17 Juan Schoeman, 18 Aranos Coetzee, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 GJ van Velze, 21 Max Green, 22 Piers Francis, 23 Josh Bayliss
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
WASPS: 15 Jacob Umaga, 14 Francois Hougaard, 13 Sam Spink, 12 Burger Odendaal, 11 Josh Bassett; 10 Charlie Atkinson, 9 Will Porter; 1 Tom West, 2 Dan Frost, 3 Biyi Alo, 4 Joe Launchbury (c), 5 Kiran McDonald, 6 Nizaam Carr, 7 Jack Willis, 8 Tom Willis
Replacements: 16 Gabriel Oghre, 17 Robin Hislop, 18 John Ryan, 19 Tim Cardall, 20 Ben Morris, 21 Dan Robson, 22 Ryan Mills, 23 Zach Kibirige
“This machine kills fascists”
Woody Guthrie's guitar.
Replacements: 16 Gabriel Oghre, 17 Robin Hislop, 18 John Ryan, 19 Tim Cardall, 20 Ben Morris, 21 Dan Robson, 22 Ryan Mills, 23 Zach Kibirige
“This machine kills fascists”
Woody Guthrie's guitar.
Great to have Cloete back but 10 weeks out for Jaco Coetzee is a grievous blow. I'm shocked that Redpath has been dropped. It really is time for Cokanasiga to show up and answer a few questions.
I fear for our backrow in this game, but that front five should be more than competitive.
I fear for our backrow in this game, but that front five should be more than competitive.
Quote:Malco
I fear for our backrow in this game, but that front five should be more than competitive.
I am actually quite excited by it, certainly very mobile and both Reid and Cloete are good in the jackal so should be interesting vs the Willis brothers.
Much less excited about 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Ojomoh but would be delighted to be wrong about that.
The Wasps team looks beatable IMO.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Our injury luck knows no bottom. Having 2/3 of our first choice back row out until Xmas (and 4/8 of our first choice pack unavailable) is sensationally disheartening. Having said that... I like 6 Reid 7 Cloete combo and de Charp has earned his start over the past fortnight, so I think it's a strong pack.
The problem, of course, is no Spencer and it puts a heck of a lot of responsibility on Landy and Mojo to run the game. I must admit, I don't know much about Schreuder, but they don't hand out SA caps, so hope he brings his experience to bear. Thought he looked alright last week behind a pack on the back foot, so interested to see what he can do if we get even a modicum of go forward.
A dry night. Wasps in adversity and under all kinds of pressure and I'm sure they will come out fighting and give it a lash. The fact Odogwu isn't in their squad gives me heart! Come on you Bath!
The problem, of course, is no Spencer and it puts a heck of a lot of responsibility on Landy and Mojo to run the game. I must admit, I don't know much about Schreuder, but they don't hand out SA caps, so hope he brings his experience to bear. Thought he looked alright last week behind a pack on the back foot, so interested to see what he can do if we get even a modicum of go forward.
A dry night. Wasps in adversity and under all kinds of pressure and I'm sure they will come out fighting and give it a lash. The fact Odogwu isn't in their squad gives me heart! Come on you Bath!
What is this naming a forward at 23 all about? Last week it was RdC
It is a 6:2 bench we have. If we get short of backs due to injury then ok someone is going to have to move over to cover out wider but surely we aren't saying that Bayliss is only there as backs 'impact'?
It is a 6:2 bench we have. If we get short of backs due to injury then ok someone is going to have to move over to cover out wider but surely we aren't saying that Bayliss is only there as backs 'impact'?
Quote:gaz59
What is this naming a forward at 23 all about? Last week it was RdC
It is a 6:2 bench we have. If we get short of backs due to injury then ok someone is going to have to move over to cover out wider but surely we aren't saying that Bayliss is only there as backs 'impact'?
The clear implication is a tactical focus on winning the forward battle and a commensurate gameplan that doesn't expose the backs to much contact, but which is likely to demand more reserves for the forwards.
In other words, we are going to try to beat teams up in the forwards and very little will go past the halfbacks. For the time being the outside backs are pretty much only there because they have to be.
We'll get humped!
(cue the "You aren't supporting the team" comments!)
Adopted Players: All of the little blighters!!!
(cue the "You aren't supporting the team" comments!)
Adopted Players: All of the little blighters!!!
Quote:plong
We'll get humped!
(cue the "You aren't supporting the team" comments!)
If they get parity in the front five we will be in trouble. Our gameplan hinges on winning the battle in the scrum and lineout and dominating possession. We will look to score tries from mauls and kick lots of penalties. If we don't get that dominance I don't see a Plan B and if Wasps get attacking possession I don't see our backrow and our backline defence being especially effective.
Also, RdC (23 in the first two games iirc) and Bayliss could probably do a job in the backs at a push as they have fantastic engines.
Selection feels a bit scattergun at tho mo but maybe I am missing something.
Obviously injuries and accept they maybe want to cast their eyes over a decent number of players in these early games.
Absence of richards (if not injured) feels odd to me given his ability to cover second row and back row....and actually proving he is good at rugby over the last year which many others haven't.
Excited to see cloete up against Willis. We may actually have our own threat at the breakdown for once.
Interesting that dunn rather than mcnally capt.
JJ and coko must be running out of chances with butt/ghw/rmc waiting in the wings.
I personally really dislike 6:2 split. I don't mind it for specific games but 3 out of 3 now which shows we have no ambition in terms of style.
Squads look well matched on paper ....so I predict a comfortable defeat. No excuses allowed but the excuse will be their huge spirit oin adversity after the news this week.
Sorry, so cynical after Saturday! Would love to be pleasantly surprised.
Obviously injuries and accept they maybe want to cast their eyes over a decent number of players in these early games.
Absence of richards (if not injured) feels odd to me given his ability to cover second row and back row....and actually proving he is good at rugby over the last year which many others haven't.
Excited to see cloete up against Willis. We may actually have our own threat at the breakdown for once.
Interesting that dunn rather than mcnally capt.
JJ and coko must be running out of chances with butt/ghw/rmc waiting in the wings.
I personally really dislike 6:2 split. I don't mind it for specific games but 3 out of 3 now which shows we have no ambition in terms of style.
Squads look well matched on paper ....so I predict a comfortable defeat. No excuses allowed but the excuse will be their huge spirit oin adversity after the news this week.
Sorry, so cynical after Saturday! Would love to be pleasantly surprised.
If the backs aren't going to see much ball (which they arent) I can see why JJ is in there, but not Joe C, he gets so much leeway.
The risks of a 6:2 split are presumably greatly reduced by ignoring your wingers for 80 minutes and thus reducing the chances of them getting injured.
I think this is a big Test for us and JVG. One of the few games in the calendar where we could reasonably be seen as the favourites given the venue, opposition's form etc.
A confidence boosting win from a good performance is a must.
I think this is a big Test for us and JVG. One of the few games in the calendar where we could reasonably be seen as the favourites given the venue, opposition's form etc.
A confidence boosting win from a good performance is a must.
Wayne Barnes for Sir !! 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
More changes than I thought. Backrow looks better. RDC has been in great form.
I don’t mind the 6:2 split as Bailey and Francis offer a lot of utility. Though I’d rather have a big ball carrier to bring on. I’m surprised that Van Velze is being picked ahead of Richards and Tonks who, I presume, are both fit.
I don’t mind the 6:2 split as Bailey and Francis offer a lot of utility. Though I’d rather have a big ball carrier to bring on. I’m surprised that Van Velze is being picked ahead of Richards and Tonks who, I presume, are both fit.
One of those rare games when we look much weaker on paper. Too much to expect a win after last week’s debacle, I’d just like to see the players look interested and up for it. Last week they were lacklustre, lacked energy and seemed to be going through the motions. Maybe they just don’t like the style of play we are trying to play?
I am ok with 6:2 split, it is conservative but not a disaster if injuries crop up in the backs if Bayliss is the extra sub.
What I don't quite get is whilst the backs may not see much ball they won't be sat on their sofas watching daytime TV, they should still be going through wizard drills and moves this week. There should always be tools in the box, we will get an attacking scrum or free play at some point and be ready to make the most of it. If we don't pose a threat out wide then the close in defence against us is made easy, there has to be a bit of variety to create space.
Having a forward biased game is no excuse for failing to make a 2 on 1 work.
What I don't quite get is whilst the backs may not see much ball they won't be sat on their sofas watching daytime TV, they should still be going through wizard drills and moves this week. There should always be tools in the box, we will get an attacking scrum or free play at some point and be ready to make the most of it. If we don't pose a threat out wide then the close in defence against us is made easy, there has to be a bit of variety to create space.
Having a forward biased game is no excuse for failing to make a 2 on 1 work.
14 forwards in the squad means they play - a theoretical - average of 45 minutes each, as opposed to an average of 49 minutes each if there were the more conventional 13 forwards. Given that the average match now takes around 2 hours to complete, that means each of our forwards may benefit from 1/30th less time (4 minutes less spread across 120 minutes) in which to use up their available energy resource.
I appreciate the maths is probably flawed and a fraction more complex than that - but it's frankly pathetic to think that having 14, rather than 13 (8% fewer) forwards available is going to turn the match in your favour, particularly when pitted against the possibility that you get an early injury in the backs, and the limitations that it imposes on your scope for tactical flex.
We may well win tomorrow. Cokanasiga may well be MoM. Or it might be JJ. Bayliss may well hare down the wing outstripping Bassett to score in the corner in the final minute to win the game.
But, at this moment in time - with the future unknown - the only thing that squad balance appears to me to achieve, is to alert the opposition to how we intend to play. Unless it's all a cunning plan, of course.
I appreciate the maths is probably flawed and a fraction more complex than that - but it's frankly pathetic to think that having 14, rather than 13 (8% fewer) forwards available is going to turn the match in your favour, particularly when pitted against the possibility that you get an early injury in the backs, and the limitations that it imposes on your scope for tactical flex.
We may well win tomorrow. Cokanasiga may well be MoM. Or it might be JJ. Bayliss may well hare down the wing outstripping Bassett to score in the corner in the final minute to win the game.
But, at this moment in time - with the future unknown - the only thing that squad balance appears to me to achieve, is to alert the opposition to how we intend to play. Unless it's all a cunning plan, of course.
Think it will be an interesting match - Wasps backrow is a power based unit compared to ours which is mobile and dynamic - Sale showed that a power based back row creates problems but it may have been a different story if Cloete had been available to contest the breakdown - who knows.
Louis Schreuder is quality and as much as any team will miss someone like Ben Spencer - Louis is a step up from what we are used to as a back up 9 - he would definitely be starting at most clubs - and he will challenge Ben every week for the 9 shirt - so personally happy he is there. Interesting Wasps have Dan Robson on the bench - maybe to try and match up with Max Green as a potential positive for them.
If our front 5 gets dominance or parity then it will allow our scavengers in the back row to cause havoc - dreamland for us to have 2 TH props in the calibre of Stuart and Coetzee available together again in the same game - and that might just give us the edge as I can see that being a clear stand out advantage for us along with having someone of the calibre of Quinn Roux as well - something I did not think I could say 6 months ago.
Interesting the digital programme has Matt Gallagher starting at 15?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:22:15:38:44 by Ali1969.
Louis Schreuder is quality and as much as any team will miss someone like Ben Spencer - Louis is a step up from what we are used to as a back up 9 - he would definitely be starting at most clubs - and he will challenge Ben every week for the 9 shirt - so personally happy he is there. Interesting Wasps have Dan Robson on the bench - maybe to try and match up with Max Green as a potential positive for them.
If our front 5 gets dominance or parity then it will allow our scavengers in the back row to cause havoc - dreamland for us to have 2 TH props in the calibre of Stuart and Coetzee available together again in the same game - and that might just give us the edge as I can see that being a clear stand out advantage for us along with having someone of the calibre of Quinn Roux as well - something I did not think I could say 6 months ago.
Interesting the digital programme has Matt Gallagher starting at 15?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:22:15:38:44 by Ali1969.
Quote:Rokobilly
I think this is a big Test for us and JVG. One of the few games in the calendar where we could reasonably be seen as the favourites given the venue, opposition's form etc.
I don't see it that way as I think they are set up in their style of play & ability to get turnovers to take advantage of our weaknesses, if we play like in the last game. It is true they have been caught out in the last two games but surely they didn't display the ineptness that we did? Unless we address those deficiencies & adopt a more positive attitude I'm not sure whom we can get close to beating, maybe Worcester or Newcastle on a bad day for them!
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Rokobilly
I think this is a big Test for us and JVG. One of the few games in the calendar where we could reasonably be seen as the favourites given the venue, opposition's form etc.
I don't see it that way as I think they are set up in their style of play & ability to get turnovers to take advantage of our weaknesses, if we play like in the last game. It is true they have been caught out in the last two games but surely they didn't display the ineptness that we did? Unless we address those deficiencies & adopt a more positive attitude I'm not sure whom we can get close to beating, maybe Worcester or Newcastle on a bad day for them!
Bookies have Bath by 2 points, too close to call.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I know many of you will not agree with my comments but the kicking game will be a big wepon on friday due to hougaard on the wing against muir and umaga at 15. Its boring rugby but this tactic could be vital to us winning.
Cloete has a big job on his hands but he is more than capable of out performing willis. It should be a great game and another chance for the team to prove to many supporters and pundits that this is a different Bath to last year.
Cloete has a big job on his hands but he is more than capable of out performing willis. It should be a great game and another chance for the team to prove to many supporters and pundits that this is a different Bath to last year.
Quote:MalcoQuote:gaz59
What is this naming a forward at 23 all about? Last week it was RdC
It is a 6:2 bench we have. If we get short of backs due to injury then ok someone is going to have to move over to cover out wider but surely we aren't saying that Bayliss is only there as backs 'impact'?
The clear implication is a tactical focus on winning the forward battle and a commensurate gameplan that doesn't expose the backs to much contact, but which is likely to demand more reserves for the forwards.
In other words, we are going to try to beat teams up in the forwards and very little will go past the halfbacks. For the time being the outside backs are pretty much only there because they have to be.
I'm totally fine with 6:2 split. No problem at all. It's the odd thing of forwards for the traditional first 5 of the bench numbers then two backs and then another forward. Perhaps I'm being a bit OCD in my old age but that annoys me
The split must surely depend on which players can play in which positions? Having OB and PF that can cover 10, 12, 15 and Max O for 12 and 13 (and 10 at a squeeze) must help this. TDG could probably cover a few as well, he has certainly played at 10 and 12 at U20s - not that you would want him there but it wouldn't be disastrous.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
23 being a forward annoys me as well gaz- I must also have old age ocd.
6:2 split every game I think is a bit odd but each to their own.
Just leaves you light on options in the backs. One early injury and you have no tactical options basically.
I am surprised we are bookies favourites after Saturday. We need to be sooooooo much better to have a chance.
Nice to see roux recovered and in line for a debut. Front 5 options feel good, such a shame beno out, wonder if he will be covered by an acquisition.
6:2 split every game I think is a bit odd but each to their own.
Just leaves you light on options in the backs. One early injury and you have no tactical options basically.
I am surprised we are bookies favourites after Saturday. We need to be sooooooo much better to have a chance.
Nice to see roux recovered and in line for a debut. Front 5 options feel good, such a shame beno out, wonder if he will be covered by an acquisition.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Rokobilly
I think this is a big Test for us and JVG. One of the few games in the calendar where we could reasonably be seen as the favourites given the venue, opposition's form etc.
I don't see it that way as I think they are set up in their style of play & ability to get turnovers to take advantage of our weaknesses, if we play like in the last game. It is true they have been caught out in the last two games but surely they didn't display the ineptness that we did? Unless we address those deficiencies & adopt a more positive attitude I'm not sure whom we can get close to beating, maybe Worcester or Newcastle on a bad day for them!
Bookies have Bath by 2 points, too close to call.
Bookies obviously didn’t watch us last week, Wasps by 12.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Rokobilly
I think this is a big Test for us and JVG. One of the few games in the calendar where we could reasonably be seen as the favourites given the venue, opposition's form etc.
I don't see it that way as I think they are set up in their style of play & ability to get turnovers to take advantage of our weaknesses, if we play like in the last game. It is true they have been caught out in the last two games but surely they didn't display the ineptness that we did? Unless we address those deficiencies & adopt a more positive attitude I'm not sure whom we can get close to beating, maybe Worcester or Newcastle on a bad day for them!
Bookies have Bath by 2 points, too close to call.
Bookies obviously didn’t watch us last week, Wasps by 12.
The bookies obviously didn't watch Wasps last week, either. Wasps by 15 and a TBP. Nothing for us.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
To be blunt
As we've experienced across the last 2+ seasons and leading into this one
The Bath Rugby product as played at the Rec and other Prem venues is tediously boring and uninspiring and consistently losing. Therein I find little to dispute. Not a marketable product.
As we've experienced across the last 2+ seasons and leading into this one
The Bath Rugby product as played at the Rec and other Prem venues is tediously boring and uninspiring and consistently losing. Therein I find little to dispute. Not a marketable product.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Wayne Barnes for Sir !!
Barnes loves Jack Wills. That is my biggest worry for tonight.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Quote:ArthurB
To be blunt
As we've experienced across the last 2+ seasons and leading into this one
The Bath Rugby product as played at the Rec and other Prem venues is tediously boring and uninspiring and consistently losing. Therein I find little to dispute. Not a marketable product.
If we played like Munster & won most weeks would we find it boring then. I think not. I’m also amazed by the eternal optimism of many supporters . It takes a lot for them to give up hope.
Quote:Bath Hammer
It takes a lot for them to give up hope.
If you have no hope then what's the point of even bothering to watch / follow? I suspect that those have totally given up hope wouldn't be posting on a rugby forum!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Bath Hammer
It takes a lot for them to give up hope.
If you have no hope then what's the point of even bothering to watch / follow? I suspect that those have totally given up hope wouldn't be posting on a rugby forum!
You can give up hope of Bath winning (as many have done) without giving up hope that one day things will change to move Bath back in the right direction.
Oddly, I still think we’re going to win every week.
Not sure what it is, but I always look at the team sheet on a Friday and think, this is the week when this hugely talented bunch brings together all the good work on the training ground and lights up the Rec. Whoever the opposition are, I’m always confident at 2:55 on a Saturday. It’s at 3:05 when I get brought back to earth with a bump.
Not sure what it is, but I always look at the team sheet on a Friday and think, this is the week when this hugely talented bunch brings together all the good work on the training ground and lights up the Rec. Whoever the opposition are, I’m always confident at 2:55 on a Saturday. It’s at 3:05 when I get brought back to earth with a bump.
…actually the above isn’t even true. Something in me even at 21-0 down still thinks that all we need is a good phase of play, a try and we’re right back in it. My own form of madness.
But then again I’m not sure what I’d rather - my blind optimism or an acceptance that were complete rubbish and have no hope each week.
But then again I’m not sure what I’d rather - my blind optimism or an acceptance that were complete rubbish and have no hope each week.
Quote:OutsideBath
You can give up hope of Bath winning (as many have done) without giving up hope that one day things will change to move Bath back in the right direction.
I doubt that one single person in that crowd of 13000 at the rec every other week has given up all hope of Bath winning a match. It may not happen very often but it does happen!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Bath Hammer
It takes a lot for them to give up hope.
If you have no hope then what's the point of even bothering to watch / follow? I suspect that those have totally given up hope wouldn't be posting on a rugby forum!
It all depends on what the hope you have actually is
I used to love going to watch us play Glos or Bris in the 70s safe in the knowing we were going to lose comfortably but knowing also that their points would come from being bashed up in the forwards and lots of penalties booted over from miles from posts. My big hope which was always realised was that we would score a couple of brilliant running tries out of the blue
I always came away happy and that was the Bath rugby I fell in love with
The relationship was then cemented at the altar of cup success. Some rocky times then followed but I kept faithful and now into the twilight era I am thankful for the company, treasure the few fleeting moments that surprise me but still have that fond, wistful hankering back to the exciting, early days when we first met
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
You can give up hope of Bath winning (as many have done) without giving up hope that one day things will change to move Bath back in the right direction.
I doubt that one single person in that crowd of 13000 at the rec every other week has given up all hope of Bath winning a match. It may not happen very often but it does happen!
We’ll be there because tonight’s the night it’s Bath by 2 points , oh and sadly 2
!Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
I don't know what's worse: going into the weekend resigned to a poor performance or the crushing disappointment when we regress back to the mean following the hope after we win a game.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
You can give up hope of Bath winning (as many have done) without giving up hope that one day things will change to move Bath back in the right direction.
I doubt that one single person in that crowd of 13000 at the rec every other week has given up all hope of Bath winning a match. It may not happen very often but it does happen!
Only 11'400 turned up last week BM. Does this imply 1,600 have given up hope of seeing a win?
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
You can give up hope of Bath winning (as many have done) without giving up hope that one day things will change to move Bath back in the right direction.
I doubt that one single person in that crowd of 13000 at the rec every other week has given up all hope of Bath winning a match. It may not happen very often but it does happen!
Only 11'400 turned up last week BM. Does this imply 1,600 have given up hope of seeing a win?
Ah true Clarkey! I suspect that it's more to do with Sale not having many fans? I'm not even sure how many STHs there are - 9000?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
When I was a ST I always had expectations of a win and when Bath were rubbish I used to get angry, tonight I'll watch with some optimism, but less frustration. Except for that blip in the covid year I cant say i regret losing it.
Not the end of the world. Love TdG but keen to see what Gallagher can do. He might even suit our defensive, kick-chase style marginally better.
It’s depressing how bad we are. 18 mins in and already an evening trip to Tesco looking attractive.
It’s a mess. I wasn’t expecting overnight miracles - but thought we might have sorted out the basics in pre season. Pathetic.
Still, JCok is playing well!
Still, JCok is playing well!
Still early season, but based on what we've seen so far we won't win many games and anything but last place will be good
As depressing - if not more so - as anything last season. Our lack of fight and willingness to do things that are either basic or hurt is pathetic.
Sigh 😢 Like most on here I was expecting better. The problems at Bath run deep it seems.
Don Macpherson yet to work his magic it seems. We’re still the dumbest rugby side in history.
The number of times they kick to us, we set up a ruck, we then do something that loses us the ball, is staggering.
I wish we would just let the backs play. It was a really good try but I feel like they might be in trouble for playing off the cuff.
I don't think this can get any worse now. We should be in the championship. At least we might then get some losing bonus points
I don't think this can get any worse now. We should be in the championship. At least we might then get some losing bonus points
Well, that was a depressing half of rugby. We really are not very good. It's all to easy for Wasps. Too many dumb penalties and the basics are horrible. We just don't/cannot compete
At least we can do something when we've got a free play - pity were not allowed to try otherwise.
Generally though, absolutely pathetic. Not sure we've learned anything at all from last season. Should have been relegated, and looks like we need that to give us a proper shockz and a chance to build some confidence - though it wouldn't be plain sailing down there.
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Generally though, absolutely pathetic. Not sure we've learned anything at all from last season. Should have been relegated, and looks like we need that to give us a proper shockz and a chance to build some confidence - though it wouldn't be plain sailing down there.
RAEBURN SHIELD
There was a discussion about whether people who bought a season ticket were muppets.
I’m having a think about it..
I’m having a think about it..
Losing Cloete has left us unable to compete at the breakdown. Losing every collision. Defence hopelessly porous. Whenever we get into an attacking position we kick the ball back to Wasps. Awful.
It's on for Bath now, composure needed from the team. Much better 2nd half...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Arrgh. Slightly tough pen to Wasps snatches the LBP away again.
Dreadful, dreadful first half, and tbh, it was only when Tom Willis was yellow carded that we got back into it.
Dreadful, dreadful first half, and tbh, it was only when Tom Willis was yellow carded that we got back into it.
Good against 14 men; better second half but still not good. Much the same as last season
As a Waspie that was definitely a game of two teams lacking confidence, some good stuff app, some bad stuff and some lucky stuff. Good luck for the rest of the season!
Can I just say the award for most improved goes to Cokinasiga? From completely anonymous last week he seemed to be involved in almost all of the plays. Even taking balls in the air, tackling, almost ever-present. If he keeps this up he’ll be one of the first names on the team sheet. Finally looked like he was really starting to come to the boil. If he’d just backed himself on the outside break down the right wing after the turnover he could almost have scored too with a clear field behind Bassett.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:23:21:47:40 by SJS.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:23:21:47:40 by SJS.
Horrible first half in front of a Friday night home crowd.
Credit for a gutsy second half that brought some respect.
This will be a long long journey, not a quick turn around like Leicester.
Credit for a gutsy second half that brought some respect.
This will be a long long journey, not a quick turn around like Leicester.
After meditating on that on the walk home my considered opinion is that was a pile of pooh that they tried to gild by sprinkling it with glitter in the last few minutes. Trouble is you really can't polish a turd.
Quote:Old Bath TubQuote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
You can give up hope of Bath winning (as many have done) without giving up hope that one day things will change to move Bath back in the right direction.
I doubt that one single person in that crowd of 13000 at the rec every other week has given up all hope of Bath winning a match. It may not happen very often but it does happen!
We’ll be there because tonight’s the night it’s Bath by 2 points , oh and sadly 2
Got that wrong !
Well what can I say that hasn’t already been said , for me apart from the handling errors , turnovers, penalties, knock ons , when we did look like making progress in the 2nd half and the clock ticking we were slow to the line out and scrum and I couldn’t see anybody taking the lead and encouraging the team to get on with it. Having the losing bonus point snatched away says it all ! Another sad day at the office.
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Quote:Susanne
After meditating on that on the walk home my considered opinion is that was a pile of pooh that they tried to gild by sprinkling it with glitter in the last few minutes. Trouble is you really can't polish a turd.
I disagree. It wasn’t a perfect, or even good performance by any stretch, but it WAS an improvement on last week’s drubbing. First half was dismal; second showed tiny, tiny green shoots. Having already lost our first choice LH, 6/7 in Underhill, our 8 in Coetzee, arguably our 12 in Redpath, and TDG; and with our demonstrably effective 7 limping off, to come that close into the second half was, dare I say it, good. None of those tries were flukes or just solo brilliance.
Hopefully it might give some players a bit more confidence, assuming they all survive given our injury rate!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:23:22:57:47 by SJS.
Oh for a Roger Spurrell who'd instill the fear of Jesus in his team for letting the side down. Do we have one? Does Bath realy care? No and No seems to be the outcome at the moment.
Quote:Susanne
After meditating on that on the walk home my considered opinion is that was a pile of pooh that they tried to gild by sprinkling it with glitter in the last few minutes. Trouble is you really can't polish a turd.
+1
Abject performance, the new coaching setup has had no positive impact whatsoever. Defence appalling, attack non existent, no leadership, poor tactics and stupid penalties. The one at the summed up the whole evening. The poor recruitment during the summer is really hurting us as well.
Recruitment is not the issue
Club culture as highlighted by Ed Griffiths is the issue.
There are very few floating around Farleigh towers that are worthy of wearing the BBW
Very few.
Get them all back to Lambridge and out of their fluffy comfort zone.
Club culture as highlighted by Ed Griffiths is the issue.
There are very few floating around Farleigh towers that are worthy of wearing the BBW
Very few.
Get them all back to Lambridge and out of their fluffy comfort zone.
It’s true that we did salvage some pride but with the momentum we gained in the second half most other teams would have won but we always fall short. We did so against Bristol & we didn’t even hold on to a losing bonus point tonight. We were camped on Sale’s line for 10 mins with a two man advantage & couldn’t score & then they cut through our defence with absolute ease. The same thing happened in the first half tonight. Despite having recruited a highly regarded defence coach we still can’t defend & our attack is still the opposite of potent. I do have far more confidence in JvG & maybe they need more time but we are still miles away from being even a half decent Premiership team. It seems that everything we do is half a second slower than our opponents & we constantly get bullied off the ball. So far we have lost against two mediocre team & made Sale look like the All Blacks. I dread to think how we going to cope with the title contenders.
Quote:ArthurB
Get them all back to Lambridge and out of their fluffy comfort zone.
Is it really all about that? I find that to be a very unconvincing explanation.
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:ArthurB
Get them all back to Lambridge and out of their fluffy comfort zone.
Is it really all about that? I find that to be a very unconvincing explanation.
Perchance your association with BFC is short
You may remember a time (or not) when, as a saddo BFC fan you/I could spend a while on the banks at Lambridge watching the squad going through their paces, then, post training and after they had showered, have a chat with the players and engage as they left. That direct relationship with Bath City no longer exists. The Bath player visit Bath only to play at the Rec or go shopping or sit on the Wifi at Starbucks (As Ed highlighted) but never ever engage with the Bath community.
The Farleigh fluffies could not give a flying %$£ about Bath or the fans - that is evident from the last 2+ years. Just turn up, train, take the wage and repeat - there is no relelgation so who gives a to$$. There are no consequences. QED there is no motivation.
Just my take
While it was humbling when I discovered that Bath trained in worse facilities than I had at high school, Bath's new facilities are not unusual among the clubs.
I don't think over-comfortable facilities excuses making the same mistakes for the 30th match in a row. I don't coach at a high level and I'm not an analyst but we really need to get a grip of these things, stay focussed for 80 minutes and probably start dropping players who exhibit these lapses in concentration.
I don't think over-comfortable facilities excuses making the same mistakes for the 30th match in a row. I don't coach at a high level and I'm not an analyst but we really need to get a grip of these things, stay focussed for 80 minutes and probably start dropping players who exhibit these lapses in concentration.
Sat listening to Radio Brizzle in the Caribbean for the last two games. Gutted when the fixtures were announced, but I guess I didn’t miss much.
BBC RADIO BRIS today had Matt Garvey as the co commentator, his insight into the game was extremely good, and he picked out things that the normal rabid commentator guy could not. However, Garvs voice on the radio is identical to Ross Kemps. Come to think of it his appearance is quite similar.
BBC RADIO BRIS today had Matt Garvey as the co commentator, his insight into the game was extremely good, and he picked out things that the normal rabid commentator guy could not. However, Garvs voice on the radio is identical to Ross Kemps. Come to think of it his appearance is quite similar.
Both Sale & Wasps looked as if their lives depended on winning. When one of their players did something that prevented a try or gained an important turnover one or two of their players would jump around in a demented fashion. Bath players just look fairly disinterested & if they fail to secure a win or bonus point they don’t look too bothered. Perhaps that has something to do with their failure rate.
Just watched the game. Well, we weren't absolutely abysmal but we just spent the first half being a yard short and a second late compared to Wasps. As soon as Wasps slowed down in the second half, we looked much better. Albeit, we were losing by miles by then.
My MotM - Jack Willis. I rarely pick an opposition player (that's what opposition boards are for) but he epitomised everything that was good about a Wasps team that may well not exist as a professional entity in a months time. When our players start showing that kind of clarity of understanding of what they are trying to acheive, we'll start winning rugby matches.
The second half says that there's something for JvG to work with here but it's going to take a season or two (and a bunch more Saffers, I suspect) to build something that might actually be competitive. Having watched all of the other teams in the league play, I can certainly see us failing to win a Prem game this season.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:24:06:30:03 by joethefanatic.
My MotM - Jack Willis. I rarely pick an opposition player (that's what opposition boards are for) but he epitomised everything that was good about a Wasps team that may well not exist as a professional entity in a months time. When our players start showing that kind of clarity of understanding of what they are trying to acheive, we'll start winning rugby matches.
The second half says that there's something for JvG to work with here but it's going to take a season or two (and a bunch more Saffers, I suspect) to build something that might actually be competitive. Having watched all of the other teams in the league play, I can certainly see us failing to win a Prem game this season.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:24:06:30:03 by joethefanatic.
Johann “ We came here to win - we didn’t do that “ . Really ? Explanation here
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I made reference to a quote on our site (unfortunately I can't remember which Coach it was, I think Pat Lam) who said "skill failures are ok, effort failures aren't" and that seems very appropriate for Bath.
It certainly isn't all doom and gloom but there's a core of players who just don't seem to really have the heart or interest in giving it their all. I'd normally be very wary of saying something like that but its over such an extended period of time now.
Wasps backrowers and centres made the difference for me. For Bath Dunn was the heartbeat you'd hope would find echoes in the squad but he can't (in the pack) do it alone. Great to see Coka deliver on a bit of his potential and Muir, as ever, looked class. I also thought Gallagher had a decent showing. Player like Joseph should have been let go years ago. If you can't rely on a player of that seniority and theoretical quality to step up when the team is looking short on both why are they in the squad?
I don't think anyone expected instant results from a change in coaching but I'm surprised at no bounce just from the change in leadership and a good pre-season. Maybe that's the issue with keeping Hatley and Hooper?
It certainly isn't all doom and gloom but there's a core of players who just don't seem to really have the heart or interest in giving it their all. I'd normally be very wary of saying something like that but its over such an extended period of time now.
Wasps backrowers and centres made the difference for me. For Bath Dunn was the heartbeat you'd hope would find echoes in the squad but he can't (in the pack) do it alone. Great to see Coka deliver on a bit of his potential and Muir, as ever, looked class. I also thought Gallagher had a decent showing. Player like Joseph should have been let go years ago. If you can't rely on a player of that seniority and theoretical quality to step up when the team is looking short on both why are they in the squad?
I don't think anyone expected instant results from a change in coaching but I'm surprised at no bounce just from the change in leadership and a good pre-season. Maybe that's the issue with keeping Hatley and Hooper?
I guess we’re seeing why Munster fans weren’t too bothered losing JvG. The defence is worse than ever so not sure what the defence coach is doing and our attack strategy consists of run into the opposition line then dropping the ball after a couple of phases.
Absolutely hopeless coaching yet again this season.
As for the players you could make a case for dropping all but 3 or 4. They are just not putting enough effort in, wonder if they don’t buy into JvG’s vision so are just going go through the motions.
We are a championship quality club out of its depth in the PL.
If the players are just going to churn out rubbish like the last couple of games makes me wonder why we should bother turning up for them.
Absolutely hopeless coaching yet again this season.
As for the players you could make a case for dropping all but 3 or 4. They are just not putting enough effort in, wonder if they don’t buy into JvG’s vision so are just going go through the motions.
We are a championship quality club out of its depth in the PL.
If the players are just going to churn out rubbish like the last couple of games makes me wonder why we should bother turning up for them.
Quote:Dorset Boy
That yellow is crazy harsh, but sums up Bath.
Barnes was very clear on Ref Link - 3 penalties by the same player in 30 seconds, last of which was a deliberate knock on so maybe not so harsh?
Did hear Barnes taking the p1ss at half time though - quite literally when they forgot to turn the link off quick enough! I usually keep listening after the whistle as occasionally the conversation as they go into the tunnel can be revealing of their view of the half, but wasn't expecting that 🤯
Well I enjoyed watching the game, yes we lost again, but some steel shown in the second half. Certainly agree with regards Coka, looked a different player. He looked athletic and confident, should be a major asset, let’s hope he gets an injury free run. I thought Bailey had a decent game, more likely to open up defences than Francis. Baylis however is struggling to make an impact on games this season, he’s bulked up, but seems to get easily bullied by oppo back rows still and we haven’t managed to exploit his pace yet. Miles Reid is short of game time, but confident he’ll be back to his best. Concerning that our starting front five didn’t get scrum parity let alone dominance. A Coetzee looking a very good signing. JJ needs to renew his defensive reputation, but he and Max O had a poor game without the ball.
Wasps did play some very nice rugby in the first half, a lot stuck for them, but they got themselves into a position to try things. And regards the comments about how we’d fair against title contenders, it’s a very competitive league, most teams can beat anyone on their day….but be 10% off and you’ll get hammered by teams.
Wasps did play some very nice rugby in the first half, a lot stuck for them, but they got themselves into a position to try things. And regards the comments about how we’d fair against title contenders, it’s a very competitive league, most teams can beat anyone on their day….but be 10% off and you’ll get hammered by teams.
Quote:SusanneQuote:Dorset Boy
That yellow is crazy harsh, but sums up Bath.
Barnes was very clear on Ref Link - 3 penalties by the same player in 30 seconds, last of which was a deliberate knock on so maybe not so harsh?
Did hear Barnes taking the p1ss at half time though - quite literally when they forgot to turn the link off quick enough! I usually keep listening after the whistle as occasionally the conversation as they go into the tunnel can be revealing of their view of the half, but wasn't expecting that 🤯
Do enlighten us Susanne - what did Barnes say?
PG
Looking at the fixture list there isn’t a chance of winning a PL game before the New Year game at home to Falcons now. This season really is like ground hog day and makes you wonder what changes need to be made on and off the pitch to make Bath at real PL team.
If only we could rewind to 2015 when we had a team to be proud of and not embarrassed by.
If only we could rewind to 2015 when we had a team to be proud of and not embarrassed by.
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
You can give up hope of Bath winning (as many have done) without giving up hope that one day things will change to move Bath back in the right direction.
I doubt that one single person in that crowd of 13000 at the rec every other week has given up all hope of Bath winning a match. It may not happen very often but it does happen!
Only 11'400 turned up last week BM. Does this imply 1,600 have given up hope of seeing a win?
I think I read all attendances were down last week. What with cost of living pressures, spending £30 to £50 on a ticket plus’s associated costs might be the discretionary spend that’s dumped
A miserable evening...
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Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
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Quote:P G TipsQuote:SusanneQuote:Dorset Boy
That yellow is crazy harsh, but sums up Bath.
Barnes was very clear on Ref Link - 3 penalties by the same player in 30 seconds, last of which was a deliberate knock on so maybe not so harsh?
Did hear Barnes taking the p1ss at half time though - quite literally when they forgot to turn the link off quick enough! I usually keep listening after the whistle as occasionally the conversation as they go into the tunnel can be revealing of their view of the half, but wasn't expecting that 🤯
Do enlighten us Susanne - what did Barnes say?
PG
If you mean the first bit, not much more than that really - he just sounded mildly exasperated that a player could have been that daft and expect to get away with it. No indecision from him - hand straight to pocket.
And if you mean the second part, we literally heard water hitting the pan as he had a slash...
Incidentally, he was really clear with the players all game about what he wanted - and watching the off side line wasn't really part of that, that wasn't one of the rules du jour yesterday!
Opening 3 games conceding 14 try’s and 107 points maybe missing defence coach last season wasn’t an issue ? 
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Allowed myself some time after the game before posting.
I think in summary we are v bad at playing rugby. Bit of an issue for a rugby club.
If I had to pinpoint one thing I would say 'confidence'- it always boggles my mind how important it is to seemingly mentally tough elite athletes but its there to see every game.
Consistently losing games is crippling for confidence which is why I said all along we needed to win 1 or 2 of our first 3 games to move on from last season.
I was not at all in the 'plucky, encouraging defeat' camp after bris ...it was a loss from a winning position against an average side and that does damage psychologically to a team already scarred by last season.
Step up Don macpherson..... meant to be one of the best in the business. He has a big job on!
There were patches when we got on the front foot, dididnt make horrific errors , and the crowd were allowed into and we looked like we had seen a rugby ball before and the players actually wanted to be there.
I think in summary we are v bad at playing rugby. Bit of an issue for a rugby club.
If I had to pinpoint one thing I would say 'confidence'- it always boggles my mind how important it is to seemingly mentally tough elite athletes but its there to see every game.
Consistently losing games is crippling for confidence which is why I said all along we needed to win 1 or 2 of our first 3 games to move on from last season.
I was not at all in the 'plucky, encouraging defeat' camp after bris ...it was a loss from a winning position against an average side and that does damage psychologically to a team already scarred by last season.
Step up Don macpherson..... meant to be one of the best in the business. He has a big job on!
There were patches when we got on the front foot, dididnt make horrific errors , and the crowd were allowed into and we looked like we had seen a rugby ball before and the players actually wanted to be there.
Never before have I contemplated leaving a game before the final whistle.
Yesterday I half contemplated leaving at half time and getting something to eat. I was away for the past two games and my friends have informed me that last night was better!!!!!!
Obviously the second half scored more and probably played better. I don't want to really highlight Doughty's stupidity but you have to say some of these players are brain dead at times.
The whole battering the line time and time again is so limiting, and generally unsuccessful. Why oh why don't we have Joe coming like an express train on the centres shoulder at pace his momentum would carry him the final five yards....
Yesterday I half contemplated leaving at half time and getting something to eat. I was away for the past two games and my friends have informed me that last night was better!!!!!!
Obviously the second half scored more and probably played better. I don't want to really highlight Doughty's stupidity but you have to say some of these players are brain dead at times.
The whole battering the line time and time again is so limiting, and generally unsuccessful. Why oh why don't we have Joe coming like an express train on the centres shoulder at pace his momentum would carry him the final five yards....
Have to say whilst there was genuinely zero positives I could see last week there were a few little bits for people with a optimistic outlook last night.
Dunn was exactly what we needed- a fulcrum, displaying a sheer will to win and drag the team with him. Class display after a long spell out of nick. Well done dunny!
Schreuder was a real mixed bag with a few appalling box kicks but felt he grew into the game and is an upgrade on the back up 9s we have had over recent seasons.
Bailey still looks a good players- made a few errors but looks a threat I think.
Coko had to improve....and he did.
Muir hasn't had all rugby ability drained from him by the club....and we actually got the ball to our biggest threat a few times. I said after last week just do a miss 2 cut out pass to get him the ball as much as possible (half joking) and mojo did exactly that last night and he made about 40 yards. Quality player.
We scored a few good tries in the tight and a well orchestrated strike backs move- if we can keep some variety in our game and score different types of tries then good times.
Thought schoeman, aranas, and roux looked decent off bench.
As for the negatives....jeeze, could go on all day but will just depress myself!
Dunn was exactly what we needed- a fulcrum, displaying a sheer will to win and drag the team with him. Class display after a long spell out of nick. Well done dunny!
Schreuder was a real mixed bag with a few appalling box kicks but felt he grew into the game and is an upgrade on the back up 9s we have had over recent seasons.
Bailey still looks a good players- made a few errors but looks a threat I think.
Coko had to improve....and he did.
Muir hasn't had all rugby ability drained from him by the club....and we actually got the ball to our biggest threat a few times. I said after last week just do a miss 2 cut out pass to get him the ball as much as possible (half joking) and mojo did exactly that last night and he made about 40 yards. Quality player.
We scored a few good tries in the tight and a well orchestrated strike backs move- if we can keep some variety in our game and score different types of tries then good times.
Thought schoeman, aranas, and roux looked decent off bench.
As for the negatives....jeeze, could go on all day but will just depress myself!
From where we were sitting the players lacked urgency and didn’t seem to care we were losing.
7 minutes to go, multiple lineouts and each time the forwards had a long chat then ambled into position. Then just battered the Wasps line for minutes instead of passing to the backs who were standing bored in acres of space.
The final insult was the idiotic penalty given away to deny us a LBP. What was he thinking!
That lost point could be the difference between finish 13th and 12th.
7 minutes to go, multiple lineouts and each time the forwards had a long chat then ambled into position. Then just battered the Wasps line for minutes instead of passing to the backs who were standing bored in acres of space.
The final insult was the idiotic penalty given away to deny us a LBP. What was he thinking!
That lost point could be the difference between finish 13th and 12th.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
The whole battering the line time and time again is so limiting, and generally unsuccessful. Why oh why don't we have Joe coming like an express train on the centres shoulder at pace his momentum would carry him the final five yards....
I think anyone other team could have orchestrated a walk in for the backs with 2 men to spare. After about 20 phases we relied on a speculative 30 yd cross field kick that needed to land on a 6 pence.
If we had scored a try after 10 phases there would have still been about 5 mins to try and win it.
Also slightly confused by the logic to go for the pen which everyone seems to agree with.
Is it not easier to score a try from 5 yds, then try to win a pen within 50 yds after the restart. Rather than needing to score a try from 80 yds?
I guess based on the evidence of the previous 5 mins we weren't going to score a try and convert in time to even restart the game!?
Quote:Susanne
he was really clear with the players all game about what he wanted - and watching the off side line wasn't really part of that, that wasn't one of the rules du jour yesterday!
Or forward passes, Wasps must have hired an NFL quarterback as their passing coach!
Thanks Susanne, I did not get the literal reference - thought Barnes was mocking Bath.
He certainly mocked a few of the laws as OM’s comment confirms.
As for offside, ‘twas ever thus. A few years ago he told Schalk Brits in a match at the Rec that he thought it “a stupid law”.
PG
He certainly mocked a few of the laws as OM’s comment confirms.
As for offside, ‘twas ever thus. A few years ago he told Schalk Brits in a match at the Rec that he thought it “a stupid law”.
PG
It's not just the lack of any real talent, or of personal game and team commitment, or 80 minute fitness issues - it's just the continuing stupidity that always gets me. Professional players who commit the most crass, idiotic and pointless penalties, usually in front of the ref or in the final stages of a flowing attack, and which eat into the result and dispirit and negate all the good work that has gone on before it. The penalty that cost us a losing bonus point last night being typical. In a relegation season such stupidity could be very costly. And we keep doing it. Game after game. Our penalty count may be no more dramatic that other teams - but our penalties always seem to have greater impact and to matter more - on the result and on team spirit. Our front five are serial offenders, but now the backs are joining in. Poor coaching or failed game plans at fault?
Yesterday just prove how much Confidence is key to this game and off of that Momentum. We started well, but failed to put points on. Wasps hit back and wrestled control and so visibly our confidence drained away. The pack stopped firing into the rucks as a group, we became individuals fighting for control and Wasps were feeding off of that lack of cohesion. The game the 2nd half and they returned to playing as a team (helped without Willis being a pain at the breakdown) and suddenly the confidence rose and with it the crowd was able to become more involved and roaring the team on. Then we had full momentum.
It is such a mental game. Yes our backrow still looks underpowered. Yes, Boyce and Stuart were off the pace. Yes Ojomoh is still raw at Centre. But we are starting to develop a something here. That 2nd half proved what a confident Bath side can do.
Not perfect, not a Leinster style performance, but far better than what we saw last season. We didn't roll over and give up.
The biggest indicator of the confidence fluctuations was our no.9. He was awful in the 1st half, terrible box kicks, berating himself over and over after mistakes. Then we started to play and he looked a different player, getting to the breakdown quickly and getting g the ball away, marshaling the forwards. An encouraging sign.
Need to watch the game on TV yet, but I swear I saw Schoeman hold off of a defensive maul, waiting and watching while the rest wrestled for control, then the players all stopped, he flew in causing the maul to fall back towards the Wasps side and we won the turnover. Not seen intelligent play from our forwards like that for a long time.
Also, a shoutout to GJ van Velze, he was fantastic and made a real difference. Also getting in the faces of the Willis boys. Love it.
It is such a mental game. Yes our backrow still looks underpowered. Yes, Boyce and Stuart were off the pace. Yes Ojomoh is still raw at Centre. But we are starting to develop a something here. That 2nd half proved what a confident Bath side can do.
Not perfect, not a Leinster style performance, but far better than what we saw last season. We didn't roll over and give up.
The biggest indicator of the confidence fluctuations was our no.9. He was awful in the 1st half, terrible box kicks, berating himself over and over after mistakes. Then we started to play and he looked a different player, getting to the breakdown quickly and getting g the ball away, marshaling the forwards. An encouraging sign.
Need to watch the game on TV yet, but I swear I saw Schoeman hold off of a defensive maul, waiting and watching while the rest wrestled for control, then the players all stopped, he flew in causing the maul to fall back towards the Wasps side and we won the turnover. Not seen intelligent play from our forwards like that for a long time.
Also, a shoutout to GJ van Velze, he was fantastic and made a real difference. Also getting in the faces of the Willis boys. Love it.
I’m normally in the apologist camp in the post game lamentation stakes…but I’m struggling to find much positive to say following this start to the season.
I’ve watched the game live at the Rec and then back on TV…but we were so poor in the first half to be almost beyond belief.
The second half was slightly better, but only against a Wasps team who had clearly taken their foot off the gas with the perception of safety brought about by a THIRTY point cushion. This was compounded with the yellow card to Willis (who was easily the best player on show)- this gave Bath a foothold at the ruck and a numerical advantage which they were able to utilise this week. We didn’t do this last week, because we never got the back row to be competitive.
Overall though, this is a very poor team, lacking confidence, lacking charisma and leadership whilst failing to execute what appears to be a simple game plan.
And…don’t get me startled on Joe C…I defy anyone to watch back the last two games (and a bunch of others) and tell me he’s not the laziest player on the park. He was more involved last night to be fair, but when your baseline position is ‘not involved at all’ any improvement would look to be exponential. I’m also cynical enough to link the watching Eddie Jones and an improved effort level from Joe C… sorry!
I’ll put good money on him not being a JVG kind of player.
Thanks god for Bruce, otherwise we’d be Wasps or Worcester inside 18 months.
Interesting to see the commercials play out too…we’re down on attendance, but Bath keep trumpeting the loyalty of the season ticket holders as their trump commercial card. If it’s anything like our groups, we’ve got people (me included!) struggling to give our spare season tickets away. The upshot of that is that ‘casual’ Bath local fans who might have bought a ticket previously don’t need to as they can always find a mate who isn’t using one. Now, of course, that’s been going on for years, but the levels seem unprecedented this season. Of course, it won’t make a difference this year for renewals, but it will for next and the year after.
What. A. Mess.
#hooperin
I’ve watched the game live at the Rec and then back on TV…but we were so poor in the first half to be almost beyond belief.
The second half was slightly better, but only against a Wasps team who had clearly taken their foot off the gas with the perception of safety brought about by a THIRTY point cushion. This was compounded with the yellow card to Willis (who was easily the best player on show)- this gave Bath a foothold at the ruck and a numerical advantage which they were able to utilise this week. We didn’t do this last week, because we never got the back row to be competitive.
Overall though, this is a very poor team, lacking confidence, lacking charisma and leadership whilst failing to execute what appears to be a simple game plan.
And…don’t get me startled on Joe C…I defy anyone to watch back the last two games (and a bunch of others) and tell me he’s not the laziest player on the park. He was more involved last night to be fair, but when your baseline position is ‘not involved at all’ any improvement would look to be exponential. I’m also cynical enough to link the watching Eddie Jones and an improved effort level from Joe C… sorry!
I’ll put good money on him not being a JVG kind of player.
Thanks god for Bruce, otherwise we’d be Wasps or Worcester inside 18 months.
Interesting to see the commercials play out too…we’re down on attendance, but Bath keep trumpeting the loyalty of the season ticket holders as their trump commercial card. If it’s anything like our groups, we’ve got people (me included!) struggling to give our spare season tickets away. The upshot of that is that ‘casual’ Bath local fans who might have bought a ticket previously don’t need to as they can always find a mate who isn’t using one. Now, of course, that’s been going on for years, but the levels seem unprecedented this season. Of course, it won’t make a difference this year for renewals, but it will for next and the year after.
What. A. Mess.
#hooperin
Quote:BathSalmon
Yesterday just prove how much Confidence is key to this game and off of that Momentum. We started well, but failed to put points on. Wasps hit back and wrestled control and so visibly our confidence drained away. The pack stopped firing into the rucks as a group, we became individuals fighting for control and Wasps were feeding off of that lack of cohesion. The game the 2nd half and they returned to playing as a team (helped without Willis being a pain at the breakdown) and suddenly the confidence rose and with it the crowd was able to become more involved and roaring the team on. Then we had full momentum.
It is such a mental game. Yes our backrow still looks underpowered. Yes, Boyce and Stuart were off the pace. Yes Ojomoh is still raw at Centre. But we are starting to develop a something here. That 2nd half proved what a confident Bath side can do.
Not perfect, not a Leinster style performance, but far better than what we saw last season. We didn't roll over and give up.
The biggest indicator of the confidence fluctuations was our no.9. He was awful in the 1st half, terrible box kicks, berating himself over and over after mistakes. Then we started to play and he looked a different player, getting to the breakdown quickly and getting g the ball away, marshaling the forwards. An encouraging sign.
Need to watch the game on TV yet, but I swear I saw Schoeman hold off of a defensive maul, waiting and watching while the rest wrestled for control, then the players all stopped, he flew in causing the maul to fall back towards the Wasps side and we won the turnover. Not seen intelligent play from our forwards like that for a long time.
Also, a shoutout to GJ van Velze, he was fantastic and made a real difference. Also getting in the faces of the Willis boys. Love it.
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:OldMarovian
I made reference to a quote on our site (unfortunately I can't remember which Coach it was, I think Pat Lam) who said "skill failures are ok, effort failures aren't" and that seems very appropriate for Bath.
It certainly isn't all doom and gloom but there's a core of players who just don't seem to really have the heart or interest in giving it their all. I'd normally be very wary of saying something like that but its over such an extended period of time now.
Wasps backrowers and centres made the difference for me. For Bath Dunn was the heartbeat you'd hope would find echoes in the squad but he can't (in the pack) do it alone. Great to see Coka deliver on a bit of his potential and Muir, as ever, looked class. I also thought Gallagher had a decent showing. Player like Joseph should have been let go years ago. If you can't rely on a player of that seniority and theoretical quality to step up when the team is looking short on both why are they in the squad?
I don't think anyone expected instant results from a change in coaching but I'm surprised at no bounce just from the change in leadership and a good pre-season. Maybe that's the issue with keeping Hatley and Hooper?
I always feared that would be the case & it does seem to be.
Quote:BathSalmon
But we are starting to develop a something here.
Read your post with interest, however I couldn't disagree with this part more. To start something you need the basics in place and the bare minimum is effort. I did not see enough of this from the players last night both on and off the ball.
We are also unable to catch the ball consistently and miss far too many tackles, both of which are basics.
Quote:OutsideBath
I guess we’re seeing why Munster fans weren’t too bothered losing JvG. The defence is worse than ever so not sure what the defence coach is doing and our attack strategy consists of run into the opposition line then dropping the ball after a couple of phases.
Absolutely hopeless coaching yet again this season.
As for the players you could make a case for dropping all but 3 or 4. They are just not putting enough effort in, wonder if they don’t buy into JvG’s vision so are just going go through the motions.
We are a championship quality club out of its depth in the PL.
If the players are just going to churn out rubbish like the last couple of games makes me wonder why we should bother turning up for them.
I left 10 minutes after half-time vowing not to return until they started to be competitive. I missed the fight back but it was all too late & played on the fear factor understandably running through Wasps. However, because of that improvement I’ll come to the next game but with little enthusiasm. I know that’s not being supportive of the team but there’s only so much misery I can put up with!
In the spirit of 'looking for the positives', one massive improvement over last season is maul defence and attack. I thought Bailey was notably more effective with ball in hand than Francis.
The biggest issue in the first half was that for pretty much 30 minutes we were constantly defending and we're not good enough to do that. Every kick was poor, mistakes were plenty, ruck turnovers even more. That inability to control the game was killing us and the confidence it gave Wasps to throw offloads that stuck doubled that up.
We desperately, painfully lack for ball carriers who can at least make the gain line. Injuries have obviously not helped there.
The biggest issue in the first half was that for pretty much 30 minutes we were constantly defending and we're not good enough to do that. Every kick was poor, mistakes were plenty, ruck turnovers even more. That inability to control the game was killing us and the confidence it gave Wasps to throw offloads that stuck doubled that up.
We desperately, painfully lack for ball carriers who can at least make the gain line. Injuries have obviously not helped there.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:BathSalmon
But we are starting to develop a something here.
Read your post with interest, however I couldn't disagree with this part more. To start something you need the basics in place and the bare minimum is effort. I did not see enough of this from the players last night both on and off the ball.
We are also unable to catch the ball consistently and miss far too many tackles, both of which are basics.
I agree the basics are not good enough, not even close (passing is appalling at times). I also have issues with a number of players not being powerful enough. That was our undoing last season, our front 5 were massively underpowered and it made games easy for the opposition - maul us and keep mauling us, build a lead and we will become loose as we try to play more openly and then pick us off. We are addressing that, but again, for all his carrying ability, Boyce looks underpowered in the scrum, maul and ruck.
But I'm a glass half full type of guy, otherwise I wouldn't have renewed my season tickets.
What I was most worried about is this team is in danger of losing a whole host of young fans - my daughter was completely not bothered with the game last night - I asked if she thought Bailey would get a conversion, her reply was instant "nope! He'll hit the corner flag!!" - she's 9!
Quote:hasta
In the spirit of 'looking for the positives', one massive improvement over last season is maul defence and attack. I thought Bailey was notably more effective with ball in hand than Francis.
The biggest issue in the first half was that for pretty much 30 minutes we were constantly defending and we're not good enough to do that. Every kick was poor, mistakes were plenty, ruck turnovers even more. That inability to control the game was killing us and the confidence it gave Wasps to throw offloads that stuck doubled that up.
We desperately, painfully lack for ball carriers who can at least make the gain line. Injuries have obviously not helped there.
Agree with all that.
Who are our ball carriers in theory as agree we are desperately lacking there.
Beno is good carrier, dunn is decent, stuart is good but should offer more in bbw.
Cloete is small but if an effective carrier. Coetzee in theory but got man handled last week, similar with attwood.
Coko in the backs?
We need to get on front foot and then not be terribly ponderous once we have teams back peddling.
I find the selections/balance in back row a bit odd Bayliss/cloete/ coetzee- quite lightweight.
Reid/ cloete/rdc- even more lightweight.
I am baffled if richards is fit and isn't getting selected. He would offer great balance and ballast at 6. To not have him in 23 seems weird- maybe injured. I think Ellis will come back into reckoning- in mind richards has a higher ceiling long term but do like Ellis and would certainly help in areas jvg focuses on like attacking and defensive mauls
Looking at the stats we seem to be better than Wasps in lots of areas. I thought our discipline let us down but they were worse!
Fair comment on the stats CC. Execution , discipline and direction seen sadly lacking.
Thank you B.. It is the 3 D’s that need urgent attention Defence, Discipline and Direction (leadership).
It is the 3 D’s that need urgent attention Defence, Discipline and Direction (leadership).
So, on the topic of Stats. I am currently working with The Stormers in SA, providing helping on analysing the data they collect.
Some of the data they collect is a little more detailed than we see in ESPN (as you would expect). Especially around a players' involvement at the ruck.
Some of the more interesting stats tag players on whether they were the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player to arrive at the ruck - unsurprisingly you see players such as Michael Hooper consistently arrive 1st at a ruck and they hit many many rucks. But the ruck stats also continue to try to understand the outcome of those rucks - did they produce clean ball, did they seal off the ball, or interestingly is the action classed as "waste" - i.e. did they arrive at the ruck and do Sweet F A!
Considering all the issues we have faced at ruck time since Francois Louw left, I would love to Bath Rugby's stats at ruck time and how as the season progresses will it improve.
They are not all the stats they collect on rucks, but in player-to-player comparisons, its easy to see how some locks carry the ball a lot and their lock partner hits many more rucks. The stats we see don't always show everything about a game, as rugby as we know is too nuanced to be completely stats driven. But it does go some way to explain how players such as Ewels don't show up well on ESPN stats, but I'd imagine his workrate is high around the ruck.
I've always felt the ruck is a good barometer for how cohesive a team is. Securing your own possession, keeping it phase after phase and generating high ruck speed, are all signs of a team that understand what they are trying to collectively achieve - and that for the last few seasons is something Bath have lacked. In recent seasons, how often have we seen play from Bath go 3 phases and then we turn the ball over! Infuriating!
For me, after the Maul & Scrum, the ruck is what we need to perfect. And again, back to my first post above, a lot of the ruck is down to mindset - willingness to put your body in, high levels of aggression, treasure the ball and willingness to do the dirty work before the flash stuff.
Some of the data they collect is a little more detailed than we see in ESPN (as you would expect). Especially around a players' involvement at the ruck.
Some of the more interesting stats tag players on whether they were the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player to arrive at the ruck - unsurprisingly you see players such as Michael Hooper consistently arrive 1st at a ruck and they hit many many rucks. But the ruck stats also continue to try to understand the outcome of those rucks - did they produce clean ball, did they seal off the ball, or interestingly is the action classed as "waste" - i.e. did they arrive at the ruck and do Sweet F A!
Considering all the issues we have faced at ruck time since Francois Louw left, I would love to Bath Rugby's stats at ruck time and how as the season progresses will it improve.
They are not all the stats they collect on rucks, but in player-to-player comparisons, its easy to see how some locks carry the ball a lot and their lock partner hits many more rucks. The stats we see don't always show everything about a game, as rugby as we know is too nuanced to be completely stats driven. But it does go some way to explain how players such as Ewels don't show up well on ESPN stats, but I'd imagine his workrate is high around the ruck.
I've always felt the ruck is a good barometer for how cohesive a team is. Securing your own possession, keeping it phase after phase and generating high ruck speed, are all signs of a team that understand what they are trying to collectively achieve - and that for the last few seasons is something Bath have lacked. In recent seasons, how often have we seen play from Bath go 3 phases and then we turn the ball over! Infuriating!
For me, after the Maul & Scrum, the ruck is what we need to perfect. And again, back to my first post above, a lot of the ruck is down to mindset - willingness to put your body in, high levels of aggression, treasure the ball and willingness to do the dirty work before the flash stuff.
Quote:ArthurB
Fair comment on the stats CC. Execution , discipline and direction seen sadly lacking.
Sadly the only stat that matters is the final score.
Be interested to see information on effort, because I didn’t see enough from the Bath team last night.
Recruitment has also left us lagging way behind other teams. Watching Saints/Tigers and there are big lumps on both sides and ball carriers a plenty. We have no big lumps and few ball carriers.
Bath need to spend money on a number 8. I once reflected that we picked the wrong one, with Augustus going to Saints and Coetzee coming to us. Sad to be proven right. Whatever Evan Roos costs, pay it.
I thought Quinn Roux looked v useful when he came on. Which means he'll immediately get injured, of course.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:BathSalmon
So, on the topic of Stats. I am currently working with The Stormers in SA, providing helping on analysing the data they collect.
Some of the data they collect is a little more detailed than we see in ESPN (as you would expect). Especially around a players' involvement at the ruck.
Some of the more interesting stats tag players on whether they were the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player to arrive at the ruck - unsurprisingly you see players such as Michael Hooper consistently arrive 1st at a ruck and they hit many many rucks. But the ruck stats also continue to try to understand the outcome of those rucks - did they produce clean ball, did they seal off the ball, or interestingly is the action classed as "waste" - i.e. did they arrive at the ruck and do Sweet F A!
Considering all the issues we have faced at ruck time since Francois Louw left, I would love to Bath Rugby's stats at ruck time and how as the season progresses will it improve.
They are not all the stats they collect on rucks, but in player-to-player comparisons, its easy to see how some locks carry the ball a lot and their lock partner hits many more rucks. The stats we see don't always show everything about a game, as rugby as we know is too nuanced to be completely stats driven. But it does go some way to explain how players such as Ewels don't show up well on ESPN stats, but I'd imagine his workrate is high around the ruck.
I've always felt the ruck is a good barometer for how cohesive a team is. Securing your own possession, keeping it phase after phase and generating high ruck speed, are all signs of a team that understand what they are trying to collectively achieve - and that for the last few seasons is something Bath have lacked. In recent seasons, how often have we seen play from Bath go 3 phases and then we turn the ball over! Infuriating!
For me, after the Maul & Scrum, the ruck is what we need to perfect. And again, back to my first post above, a lot of the ruck is down to mindset - willingness to put your body in, high levels of aggression, treasure the ball and willingness to do the dirty work before the flash stuff.
Yes this.
We were out-rucked on Fri night. Soft.
Quote:joethefanatic
I thought Quinn Roux looked v useful when he came on. Which means he'll immediately get injured, of course.
Agree, looked promising.
His leg will fall off next game....
Quote:Gaughers
Bath need to spend money on a number 8. I once reflected that we picked the wrong one, with Augustus going to Saints and Coetzee coming to us. Sad to be proven right. Whatever Evan Roos costs, pay it.
It's so blindingly obvious we have a Nathan Hughes size hole at 8. Why oh why didn't we throw the chequebook at him? I read some great things about Coetzee and could kind of see the logic in opting for a bigger 8 than Mercer but sadly a) he's very injury-prone and b) doesn't look big enough to stamp his authority on a game.
On BathSalmon's Louw point - I'd dread to think what our stats are at breakdown post-Louwy. Granted we've signed Cloete to fill this void....but he also seems injury-prone. Sigh.
What do we predict JVG will do to solve our backrow being comprehensively outplayed?
Underhill - out (shoulder)
Coetzee - out (ankle)
Chippy - out (HIA)
Cloete - out (hamstring)
Johaan has four choices at number 8:
- A 35 year old: GJ Van Velze who is currently seen as a second row.
- Josh Bayliss: diminutive backrow but with real pace
- Merigan: raw England u20 currently loaned out to Hartpury.
- White: Only an underwhelming performance against Sale to date.
Underhill - out (shoulder)
Coetzee - out (ankle)
Chippy - out (HIA)
Cloete - out (hamstring)
Johaan has four choices at number 8:
- A 35 year old: GJ Van Velze who is currently seen as a second row.
- Josh Bayliss: diminutive backrow but with real pace
- Merigan: raw England u20 currently loaned out to Hartpury.
- White: Only an underwhelming performance against Sale to date.
Attwood could do a job at #8 imho...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
The identification of the our ruck speed/aggression is really salient. In the first 5 mins v Wasps, I noted how good we were on our ball, obliterating jacklers (some of the best in the league). Dunn, McNally, Reid threw themselves at rucks and we got clean front foot ball.
But in that ridiculous 20 min period where we conceded 25 points, we were SO slow and uncommitted. At least 3 times, down the West Stand touchline, they kicked, we put a (usually small) man into contact and they were smart and aggressive and won the turnover or pen. It was pathetic, and a fine example of poor technique and commitment.
I think we can do it - we just can’t do it for 70-80 minutes… yet. And that’s understandable, as we’re undergoing a rebuild in terms of structure, attitude and fitness, so I hope it will improve. Sadly it’s just where we are today - and it is far below what I hoped for at this stage.
Also, on the point above on our kick return and noting the mention of Nathan Hughes, Bailey running kicks back into a body of back rowers is so stupid on so many levels. One small criticism I have of Bailey is that he, like a lot of young fly halves, likes contact, either taking it himself or joining too many rucks. He’s the 10 - he should never hit a ruck unless absolutely necessary. So why he is running back kicks is madness, as he’s not a great carrier in traffic, it puts him on the floor and out of the game and he risks injury. If they kick to him, kick it in the air Landy. Or simply, give it to a big winger or back rower who should be alongside you. Having Hughes hanging back would make a difference - but no reason JCok can’t play that role in the backfield.
I’m a little more sanguine this morning. We are a 20-30 minute team, BUT very far off from being a 70-80 minute one, hence we’re getting beat. But I see a little hope in the 20 minute bursts we’re managing. We just need to get fitter (injuries aside…), find, from somewhere, some belief and do the simple things (like not having our young 10 run kick returns into Jack Willis) much much much better.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:25:10:38:56 by dr.bath1865.
But in that ridiculous 20 min period where we conceded 25 points, we were SO slow and uncommitted. At least 3 times, down the West Stand touchline, they kicked, we put a (usually small) man into contact and they were smart and aggressive and won the turnover or pen. It was pathetic, and a fine example of poor technique and commitment.
I think we can do it - we just can’t do it for 70-80 minutes… yet. And that’s understandable, as we’re undergoing a rebuild in terms of structure, attitude and fitness, so I hope it will improve. Sadly it’s just where we are today - and it is far below what I hoped for at this stage.
Also, on the point above on our kick return and noting the mention of Nathan Hughes, Bailey running kicks back into a body of back rowers is so stupid on so many levels. One small criticism I have of Bailey is that he, like a lot of young fly halves, likes contact, either taking it himself or joining too many rucks. He’s the 10 - he should never hit a ruck unless absolutely necessary. So why he is running back kicks is madness, as he’s not a great carrier in traffic, it puts him on the floor and out of the game and he risks injury. If they kick to him, kick it in the air Landy. Or simply, give it to a big winger or back rower who should be alongside you. Having Hughes hanging back would make a difference - but no reason JCok can’t play that role in the backfield.
I’m a little more sanguine this morning. We are a 20-30 minute team, BUT very far off from being a 70-80 minute one, hence we’re getting beat. But I see a little hope in the 20 minute bursts we’re managing. We just need to get fitter (injuries aside…), find, from somewhere, some belief and do the simple things (like not having our young 10 run kick returns into Jack Willis) much much much better.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:25:10:38:56 by dr.bath1865.
Quote:Gaughers
What do we predict JVG will do to solve our backrow being comprehensively outplayed?
Underhill - out (shoulder)
Coetzee - out (ankle)
Chippy - out (HIA)
Cloete - out (hamstring)
Johaan has four choices at number 8:
- A 35 year old: GJ Van Velze who is currently seen as a second row.
- Josh Bayliss: diminutive backrow but with real pace
- Merigan: raw England u20 currently loaned out to Hartpury.
- White: Only an underwhelming performance against Sale to date.
Based on current availability I would have Bayliss at 8 with Reid at 7 and 1 big unit at 6, whether that is Richards, Ellis or JJ Tonks.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Barfboy
It's so blindingly obvious we have a Nathan Hughes size hole at 8. Why oh why didn't we throw the chequebook at him?
He went to Japan for £500k+ and as he was at Bristol he couldn't have been a marquee. He's good but throwing 10% of the cap at 1 player over a season isn't really possible at the moment.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Gaughers
What do we predict JVG will do to solve our backrow being comprehensively outplayed?
Underhill - out (shoulder)
Coetzee - out (ankle)
Chippy - out (HIA)
Cloete - out (hamstring)
Johaan has four choices at number 8:
- A 35 year old: GJ Van Velze who is currently seen as a second row.
- Josh Bayliss: diminutive backrow but with real pace
- Merigan: raw England u20 currently loaned out to Hartpury.
- White: Only an underwhelming performance against Sale to date.
Based on current availability I would have Bayliss at 8 with Reid at 7 and 1 big unit at 6, whether that is Richards, Ellis or JJ Tonks.
Exactly what I would do.
6 richards 7 reid 8 bayliss
Gives you great lineout options and richards can carry well.
I know people don't like the idea of underhill at 8 but I think he was excellent there last season for us and my first choice would be 6 richards 7 cloete 8 underhill.
Sam has developed into an excellent carrier in heavy traffic. He is better at it than coetzee from what I have seen. Sadly they both seem made of glass.
Offers a nice balance imho with good carruing options and serious threat at the breakdown. Also allows you to play 2 big lumps at lock.
The stats posted suggest we could have won but the one stat I haven't seen is speed of ball away from ruck. That's the one that often seems to make the big difference between teams and what could have been a narrow win becomes a straightforward loss
Anyone found that stat from the game?
Anyone found that stat from the game?
Re. comments on why we didn't retain or attract this or that player.
They didn't want to remain or come to Bath for any money. Get real.
They didn't want to remain or come to Bath for any money. Get real.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Barfboy
It's so blindingly obvious we have a Nathan Hughes size hole at 8. Why oh why didn't we throw the chequebook at him?
He went to Japan for £500k+ and as he was at Bristol he couldn't have been a marquee. He's good but throwing 10% of the cap at 1 player over a season isn't really possible at the moment.
Do we not have a marquee spot up for grabs? Matera rejected us in July according to reports...he would surely have been that player? Everyone seems to assume Underhill is the marquee but - from what I can gather - he's on the same 3-year deal from 2020?
Marquee player is whoever is the best paid, eligible player
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:Which Tyler
Marquee player is whoever is the best paid, eligible player
Yep.
Assumption was our spots were taken by faletau and Watson.
We both going we have to go down to one spot who is best paid, eligible player.
I would guess underhill as he signed a new contract pre covid being excellent in the 2019 rwc and his stock was very high.
I've watched the match back now. My take on the restarts in that 10 min period (20-30mins) where Wasps scored 3 tries, wasn't so much an issue with Bailey running the ball back, but more that RdC was slower than Willis to get over the ball (not a crime in itself), but was also underpowered to move him before he was able to get his hands on the ball. It wasn't helped in one case of the 2nd man in for Bath (McNally) being extremely passive. The other issue (and leas technical), was the lack of options to move the ball further infield away from Willis and also Bassett chasing.
I too would love Bath to give Cokansiga more time on the ball, by putting him in a position to run kick returns. Friday, he was super effective with his carries. One kick return he ran into T.Willis and Launchbury and still made good metres.
As for backrow balance. My favourite years from watch Bath were times when we had a big physical No.8 Zak Feaunati and Leroy Houston. RdC, Bayliss, Underhill, they are all flanker and I think we need someone with more ballast. Right now, I don't think we have that man in the squad.
I too would love Bath to give Cokansiga more time on the ball, by putting him in a position to run kick returns. Friday, he was super effective with his carries. One kick return he ran into T.Willis and Launchbury and still made good metres.
As for backrow balance. My favourite years from watch Bath were times when we had a big physical No.8 Zak Feaunati and Leroy Houston. RdC, Bayliss, Underhill, they are all flanker and I think we need someone with more ballast. Right now, I don't think we have that man in the squad.
I think we just lack breakdown skills. The interpretation changed last season, seems as though you can get away with a lot more than you could in seasons before and we don’t do enough.
Interesting piece by Austin before todays match about how the Bath back line is all over the place in defence and players are going in half heartedly (JJ in that example). Multiple dog legs making it easy for attackers.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
So much analysis reveals so many issues. No evident progress on last season.
Quote:gaz59
The stats posted suggest we could have won but the one stat I haven't seen is speed of ball away from ruck. That's the one that often seems to make the big difference between teams and what could have been a narrow win becomes a straightforward loss
Anyone found that stat from the game?
The stats are misleading, there was no way we could have won that match. As for speed of ball, it was predictably pedestrian as usual.
As one way of measuring how bad we are, imagine that Owen Farrell was parachuted in for a game. The amount of times he would be literally screaming at his own team-mates is a little bit terrifying.
We have yet to make an impression on the business end of a game, and the rugby being played elsewhere in the Prem is from another planet. We are very, very out of step.
We have yet to make an impression on the business end of a game, and the rugby being played elsewhere in the Prem is from another planet. We are very, very out of step.
Quote:Optimist
As one way of measuring how bad we are, imagine that Owen Farrell was parachuted in for a game. The amount of times he would be literally screaming at his own team-mates is a little bit terrifying.
We have yet to make an impression on the business end of a game, and the rugby being played elsewhere in the Prem is from another planet. We are very, very out of step.
+1
This is probably why we can’t sign any quality players.
Quote:BathMatt53
Interesting piece by Austin before todays match about how the Bath back line is all over the place in defence and players are going in half heartedly (JJ in that example). Multiple dog legs making it easy for attackers.
The interesting point in commentary for me was contrasting individual errors with errors of [lack of] effort.
For us the latter seems dominant and honestly I'm disappointed that rugby players would allow themselves to not put in the effort throughout the 80.
It's harsh but I'd drop anyone who didn't show enough effort, even if it meant playing a 15 of kids...
What pi**ed me off the most on Friday was the players walking round in their lap of "honour" with smiles on their faces posing for selfies. They genuinely do not seem to be bothered, and I get they applaud the fans, but I would rather them get a huge bollocking in the changing room rather than wandering about the pitch laughing and joking. The attitude after another defeat is a joke. For goodness sake we have won only 5 out of last 27 games and the players seem to be happy with that. An 18% win rate!! Beggars belief
We looked good for the first 10 minutes. Then the second half, I thought we were the better side.
I don’t necessarily think it’s a lack of effort, we break out of our structures and fall apart. Personally still feel as though we lack leaders on the pitch who can solve problems. Van Velze had a good impact when he came on.
Wasps have played good rugby so far this season. It was always going to be a tough game. One thing I’m really disappointed in was how we weren’t able to gain dominance at scrum time, that was something that really let them down against Bristol and I thought our scrum was better.
I don’t necessarily think it’s a lack of effort, we break out of our structures and fall apart. Personally still feel as though we lack leaders on the pitch who can solve problems. Van Velze had a good impact when he came on.
Wasps have played good rugby so far this season. It was always going to be a tough game. One thing I’m really disappointed in was how we weren’t able to gain dominance at scrum time, that was something that really let them down against Bristol and I thought our scrum was better.
Quote:nick holder
What pi**ed me off the most on Friday was the players walking round in their lap of "honour" with smiles on their faces posing for selfies. They genuinely do not seem to be bothered, and I get they applaud the fans, but I would rather them get a huge bollocking in the changing room rather than wandering about the pitch laughing and joking. The attitude after another defeat is a joke. For goodness sake we have won only 5 out of last 27 games and the players seem to be happy with that. An 18% win rate!! Beggars belief
TBH I think they lose either way here; if they head straight back to the changing room they are accused of being ‘out of touch’ and aloof; if they politely engage with fans they’re criticised for not being committed enough because they’re not all sulking. Lots of things to work on; that ain’t one of them.
Some good news. JVG (who I do think is a good coach) would seem to be a better coach than some Munster supporters moaned given they've just managed to lose to Dragons?! That's like a Premiership team losing to a team made up of members of the crowd who thought they'd give playing rugby a go.
Quote:nick holder
What pi**ed me off the most on Friday was the players walking round in their lap of "honour" with smiles on their faces posing for selfies. They genuinely do not seem to be bothered, and I get they applaud the fans, but I would rather them get a huge bollocking in the changing room rather than wandering about the pitch laughing and joking. The attitude after another defeat is a joke. For goodness sake we have won only 5 out of last 27 games and the players seem to be happy with that. An 18% win rate!! Beggars belief
+ 1
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:nick holder
What pi**ed me off the most on Friday was the players walking round in their lap of "honour" with smiles on their faces posing for selfies. They genuinely do not seem to be bothered, and I get they applaud the fans, but I would rather them get a huge bollocking in the changing room rather than wandering about the pitch laughing and joking. The attitude after another defeat is a joke. For goodness sake we have won only 5 out of last 27 games and the players seem to be happy with that. An 18% win rate!! Beggars belief
+ 1
-1 I'm in the camp that says the game has finished, clearly they are annoyed but that they want to give respect to the fans who have stayed with them despite the 18%. My youngest got photos with a few of them and win or not it made his day.
I would however expect them to be working hard and reviewing today in the privacy of Farleigh.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I think it's the classic 'all your decisions are right' when you re winning ... 'all your decisions are wrong' when you are losing.
Personally winds me up seeing smiling faces and laughing when we have been dreadful but to matts point it is important when trying to grow the game and get youngsters into it that players make an effort with the fans.
Mourinho used to sign autographs for hours and make it players do it for hours after losses. Prob a decent motivation to look fans in the eyes and converse directly with them
Personally winds me up seeing smiling faces and laughing when we have been dreadful but to matts point it is important when trying to grow the game and get youngsters into it that players make an effort with the fans.
Mourinho used to sign autographs for hours and make it players do it for hours after losses. Prob a decent motivation to look fans in the eyes and converse directly with them
How about a half way house?
After every defeat make it mandatory for the players to take a photo with kids where they look like Launchbury did when picking up that MOTM award:
After every defeat make it mandatory for the players to take a photo with kids where they look like Launchbury did when picking up that MOTM award:
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:nick holder
What pi**ed me off the most on Friday was the players walking round in their lap of "honour" with smiles on their faces posing for selfies. They genuinely do not seem to be bothered, and I get they applaud the fans, but I would rather them get a huge bollocking in the changing room rather than wandering about the pitch laughing and joking. The attitude after another defeat is a joke. For goodness sake we have won only 5 out of last 27 games and the players seem to be happy with that. An 18% win rate!! Beggars belief
+ 1
+2
Personally don’t want to see any smiling faces from the players after a defeat. Stopped sticking around for their “lap of honour” when last season fell apart and as nothing has changed I’m out of t here ground as quick as I can
We shouldn't mix up effort with efficiency...
its efficiency that's lacking ..
its efficiency that's lacking ..
Quote:LSAR
We shouldn't mix up effort with efficiency...
its efficiency that's lacking ..
In previous seasons I’d agree with you, but based on the 2 home games I’ve attended so far this season the players aren’t working hard enough as well as lacking efficiency.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:LSAR
We shouldn't mix up effort with efficiency...
its efficiency that's lacking ..
In previous seasons I’d agree with you, but based on the 2 home games I’ve attended so far this season the players aren’t working hard enough as well as lacking efficiency.
For me its individuals vs teams. You may get away with it (a bit) in attack when you have some really special players but in D it gets found out every time in the prem.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:27:13:38:57 by BathMatt53.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBathQuote:LSAR
We shouldn't mix up effort with efficiency...
its efficiency that's lacking ..
In previous seasons I’d agree with you, but based on the 2 home games I’ve attended so far this season the players aren’t working hard enough as well as lacking efficiency.
For me its individuals vs teams. You may get away with it a bit in attack when you have some really specil players but in D it gets found out every time in the prem.
This in the 1st half it looked like they had never met.
Quote:LSAR
We shouldn't mix up effort with efficiency...
its efficiency that's lacking ..
Yes - that's very fair. They are still putting their bodies on the line, but what wouldn't we give for one forward and one back to provide the mix of instinctive rugby nous with the ability to terrify the life out of anyone they choose to on either side - Johnson crossed with Hill out of Catt and Greenwood.
Quote:OptimistQuote:LSAR
We shouldn't mix up effort with efficiency...
its efficiency that's lacking ..
Yes - that's very fair. They are still putting their bodies on the line, but what wouldn't we give for one forward and one back to provide the mix of instinctive rugby nous with the ability to terrify the life out of anyone they choose to on either side - Johnson crossed with Hill out of Catt and Greenwood.
That's an image I'm never going to be able to un-see.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
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