Bath
NEEDING A BARGAIN. BATH v SALE
Priestland: experience
By PG Tips
May 11 2021
Bath will be desperate to grab a bargain when they play host to Sale on Friday night. After three defeats which exposed the poverty of their attack, they must now find from somewhere the capital to secure a win to keep them above the Premiership’s bargain basement. They will almost certainly be without five first choices: the entire prime front row (and main heavy duty ball carriers) and two top threequarters. Can they scrape together sufficient currency to secure that bargain?
Sale, 3rd in the table, are on a Premiership roll, winners in their past five matches and last beaten two months ago in Round 13 at Franklin’s Gardens. They have built their league momentum on a dominant, physical pack and miserly defence; their only defeat in 6 games inflicted by European Champions cup finalists La Rochelle, who dominated them up front. Steve Diamond may have departed, but in Alex Sanderson they have a DOR mined from the same seam, straight talking, hard-nosed and implacable. He has forged a no-nonsense, winning style from northern grit and South African physicality. They don’t score many tries, but nor do they concede them readily, as shown in their away win at Wasps despite 4 yellow cards.
Bath can hope for little change up front from the giant Beaumont, the Du Preez brothers and Tom Curry. Snapping at their heels, Faf de Klerk is the motor of their team, keeping his pack going forward with teasing box kicks and opponents guessing with his lightning breaks and cut out passes. He is ably supported by AJ McGinty who will play position and possession rugby before launching his backline once his pack are on the front foot. Van Rensburg, Yarde and McGuigan bring the directness and pace to finish off their moves.
In the past 4 seasons, matches between the two clubs have been close, mostly decided by a single score. Only twice in that time has the margin been comfortable- once for each side.
When the two sides last met, at the AJ Bell in February, Bath sneaked a 22-27 win, with many of their top players missing on international duty or through injury. In fact they last succumbed to Sale late in the 18-19 season in a dull 6-3 exchange. Today’s Sale seem a tougher prospect though, trading confidently on a winning streak.
Bath’s coaches have some tough selection decisions to make. In recent matches they have barely been able to buy a favourable decision at the scrum, a poor return for a team built on set piece dominance. Hooper and Hatley will take a long hard look at Schoeman and Bhatti and will be hoping that Henry Thomas is fit to resume his place. I would opt for du Toit at hooker, not just for his aggression, but to interpret any Sale instructions in Afrikaans. The loose forwards will be another tough call: Bayliss and Reid were central to Bath hustling Sale off the ball in February, but the coaches may prefer the greater experience of Underhill and Faletau. With Premiership survival assured for this season it may be tempting to experiment and give game time to squad players, but I see this game as one Bath should go all out to win, to boost morale for the final run-in. For that reason I would field 3 leavers – Stooke for his heavy ball carrying, Mercer (consistently Bath’s best back rower) who has beaten more defenders and made more yards than any other forward bar Sam Simmonds – for go forward, and Priestland for overall experience and control. That is no slight on those they would displace, simply the needs of this match. Whoever is chosen, Bath need more stability at the set piece, allied to greater commitment and aggression at the breakdown. Without these basics there can be no hope of a trading disappointment for delight.
It is great to hope for bargains and to hunt for them, much harder to find them. They are often found where least expected, so this seems a good time to re-examine ruthlessly the recent mantra of “sticking with our processes” to seek and find that gem Bath really need. The best bargains are deals, that are won by hard work. There is much hard work to be done if Bath are to seal the deal on Friday.
Possible Teams:
Bath: Schoeman, Du Toit, Thomas, Stooke, Ewels (Capt.),Bayliss, Underhill, Mercer. Spencer, Priestland. Muir, Redpath, Clark, Watson. De Glanville.
Replacements: Bhatti, Walker, Judge, McNally, Faletau. Chudley, Bailey, Cokanasiga.
Sale Sharks: Harrison, Van der Merwe, Oosthuizen, Wiese, Beaumont, Du Preez, T Curry, Du Preez. De Klerk, McGinty. Yarde, V Rensburg, S James, McGuigan. L James
Replacements: Ashman, Rodd, Harper, Phillips, Neild. Quirke, Wilkinson, Hammersley.
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StumbleuponNEEDING A BARGAIN. BATH v SALE. TEAM's UP!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 11/05/2021 11:22
11/05/2021 11:22
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:25:17:00:17 by P G Tips.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:25:17:00:17 by P G Tips.
I predict this will be our heaviest home defeat of the season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:11:12:39:40 by malco.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:11:12:39:40 by malco.
With the season basically over and the team under no pressure to perform I suspect Bath will win and may even get a TBP.
The issue at Hooker is complicated by the fact that Walker is, I understand, injured Is Ross Batty fit?.
I doubt it Pythagoras, that is why we have Du Toit here -I think Ross is out for the season, so it would need to be Tom Doughty.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
I would imagine the Sharks will be in a particularly ruthless mood - Sanderson will be absolutely salivating at the prospect of battering the living *** out of Bath. And that front row is like leaving the front door wide open.
Yes, Akker van der Merwe is the older brother of Duhan.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Mike the Taxi
Is van der Merwe the SA equivalent of the Somerset name Bilk?
It means 'from the Merwede' which is a river in the Netherlands. Seems that they very much enjoyed their rugby there, almost as much as those 'from the meadow' (Du Preez).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Tongue firmly in cheek, BM! I was obscurely referencing a certain clarinetist from around these parts!
Quote:Mike the Taxi
Tongue firmly in cheek, BM! I was obscurely referencing a certain clarinetist from around these parts!
Yep don't worry Mike, Mr Bilk was way before my time (I was 2 when his last album was released) but I have just about heard of him! I had been meaning to look up those seemingly common South African names for some time, so you did me a favour.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Just for reference, in South Africa the Van Der Merwe name is ridiculed, much like we have done with "Paddy" jokes in the past, or the French do with the Belgians...
Quote:P G Tips
I doubt it Pythagoras, that is why we have Du Toit here -I think Ross is out for the season, so it would need to be Tom Doughty.
Doughty is on loan to Coventry , unless there's a deal where he can come back in an emergency, I don't think he's available.
He played in the last A Team game, so I think he could be made available.
PG
PG
Quote:OutsideBath
With the season basically over and the team under no pressure to perform I suspect Bath will win and may even get a TBP.
Hmm, not as I see it. If anything this feels like a big 'must-win' for the coaching team. If we failed to make top 8 and straight into the [even littler] little Euro Cup then surely that brings the questions around the ability of the coaching team full bang on into the headlights
Worc and Newcastle probably would have accepted survival as their minimum goal. Tigers, Wasps, Glos and LI can point to recent top coaching turnover. What explanation could Hats and Hoops put up?
After Sale at home we have two away games against an in form Quins and a very difficult one to call at Kingsholm followed by home to a very inconsistent Saints.
We probably need two wins to be sure. Failing to make top 8 and you really have to wonder at what point will Craig push the button?
Before being gifted games against Zebre and London Irish at home we hadn't won a European game for THREE YEARS (
). What use will a big cup place next season be? We'll just lose all our pool games as usual, and bow out early as usual.
I'd rather mount a proper challenge in the little cup, and maybe try to win it (unlikely I know).
Plus scraping a couple of wins in the remainder of the season will mean nothing. If anything it'd be counterproductive, serious change needs to happen and sneaking into the top 8 won't help with that.
). What use will a big cup place next season be? We'll just lose all our pool games as usual, and bow out early as usual.
I'd rather mount a proper challenge in the little cup, and maybe try to win it (unlikely I know).
Plus scraping a couple of wins in the remainder of the season will mean nothing. If anything it'd be counterproductive, serious change needs to happen and sneaking into the top 8 won't help with that.
With Dunn confirmed out for the season now we will be going into this game playing for pride only with the players coached to play a forward orientated power game with our third choice loose head, third choice hooker and second or third choice tight head. Against a team that also plays a forward orientated power game but which has a full complement of players in top form and eyeing a place in the play offs.
I really think this could get messy.
I really think this could get messy.
Quote:ballsout
Plus scraping a couple of wins in the remainder of the season will mean nothing. If anything it'd be counterproductive, serious change needs to happen and sneaking into the top 8 won't help with that.
Yeah, given scraping into the top 66% of the league now seems to be enough to qualify a season as a 'success' maybe it is time to miss out on the big cup and get the excuses out of the way (pains me to say).
But this is what happens when you don't put away the easier opposition when your squad is more or less complete, your season hangs on exceptional performances against the top sides. Even if we do pull out a performance this week that's not sustainable.
Karl Dickson for Friday night horror show !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:BathMatt53
https://twitter.com/SaleSharksRugby/status/1392744495070945283
It gets better...Manu is back for sale.
How much?
Quote:BathMatt53
https://twitter.com/SaleSharksRugby/status/1392744495070945283
It gets better...Manu is back for sale.
Not sure we want to buy him Matt, good but a bit injury prone!
Team Up
Bath Rugby side to play Sale Sharks
15. Tom de Glanville, 14. Anthony Watson, 13. Max Clark, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Rhys Priestland, 9. Will Chudley; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Jacques du Toit, 3. Henry Thomas, 4. Will Spencer, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Josh Bayliss, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements
16. Tom Doughty, 17. Jamie Bhatti, 18. Christian Judge, 19. Josh McNally, 20. Taulupe Faletau, 21. Ben Spencer, 22. Orlando Bailey, 23. Joe Cokanasiga
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Bath Rugby side to play Sale Sharks
15. Tom de Glanville, 14. Anthony Watson, 13. Max Clark, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Rhys Priestland, 9. Will Chudley; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Jacques du Toit, 3. Henry Thomas, 4. Will Spencer, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Josh Bayliss, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements
16. Tom Doughty, 17. Jamie Bhatti, 18. Christian Judge, 19. Josh McNally, 20. Taulupe Faletau, 21. Ben Spencer, 22. Orlando Bailey, 23. Joe Cokanasiga
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Some strange changes, perhaps realising that there’s not much to play for in the season so give some people a rest. We’ll probably go in and confound expectations now and take a win.
Note - I’ve yet to see/get despondent about the Sale team.
Note - I’ve yet to see/get despondent about the Sale team.
We could potentially fall out of the Top 8 this weekend. Starting to look ominous.
Glacially slow ball and one out runners trundling into contact + Tom Curry turning us over every two minutes + our scrum getting pinged a dozen times. Can't wait.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:13:12:18:46 by ballsout.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:13:12:18:46 by ballsout.
Sale 23:
Sale Sharks: Rodd, Van der Merwe, Oosthuizen, Phillips, JP Du Preez, Wiese,T Curry (capt.), JL Du Preez. De Klerk, McGinty. Yarde, Hill, S James, McGuigan. , Hammersley
Replacements: Langdon, Harrison, Harper, Neild, B Curry. Quirke, Wilkinson, Doherty.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Sale Sharks: Rodd, Van der Merwe, Oosthuizen, Phillips, JP Du Preez, Wiese,T Curry (capt.), JL Du Preez. De Klerk, McGinty. Yarde, Hill, S James, McGuigan. , Hammersley
Replacements: Langdon, Harrison, Harper, Neild, B Curry. Quirke, Wilkinson, Doherty.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quite annoying that the Sale team is a .jpg rather than text so can't be cut & pasted. What sort of terrible club culture leads to that.
'Ben Curry stars on a Sharks replacements bench that includes eight home grown players courtesy of the Sharks Academy.'
What constitutes a 'home grown' player? Curtis Langdon played for Somerset U18s and iirc was with London Irish Academy for a period.
What constitutes a 'home grown' player? Curtis Langdon played for Somerset U18s and iirc was with London Irish Academy for a period.
Sale have 6 SA players in contention to play against the Lions!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:Optimist
'Ben Curry stars on a Sharks replacements bench that includes eight home grown players courtesy of the Sharks Academy.'
What constitutes a 'home grown' player? Curtis Langdon played for Somerset U18s and iirc was with London Irish Academy for a period.
Presumably one that grew up at home?
Quote:ballsout
Glacially slow ball and one out runners trundling into contact + Tom Curry turning us over every two minutes + our scrum getting pinged a dozen times. Can't wait.
Well don't then. Go find some thistles and another team to 'support'
Looks like a decent squad to me. IF (massive if) we get parity at the scrum, we've got a chance
Nice looking backrow and having Rhys back should make the world of difference. Watson on the wing is exciting and keen to see TdG develop further. That back 3 should be able to diffuse the inevitable FdK box kickathon. On paper, that's a good Sale side but they struggled to put away a Leicester 2nd XV at home last week so they can't be too hot right now.
Yet another one of those games where I have no idea what's going to happen. All outcomes are possible and that is the most frustrating thing about this season as every week I turn on thinking that we've got a chance. Oh well, let's just hope we see a bit of rugby and the rain stays away.
Nice looking backrow and having Rhys back should make the world of difference. Watson on the wing is exciting and keen to see TdG develop further. That back 3 should be able to diffuse the inevitable FdK box kickathon. On paper, that's a good Sale side but they struggled to put away a Leicester 2nd XV at home last week so they can't be too hot right now.
Yet another one of those games where I have no idea what's going to happen. All outcomes are possible and that is the most frustrating thing about this season as every week I turn on thinking that we've got a chance. Oh well, let's just hope we see a bit of rugby and the rain stays away.
I take it this Dr prescribed himself a triple dose of Prozac this morning.
My prediction:
Scrum - smashed
Line out - smashed
Contact - smashed
Breakdown - smashed
We'll do well to be within 15 points of them at the final whistle. I fear it will be double that.
Very pleased to see Will Spencer starting.
Horrified to see Ben Spencer on the bench and Miles Reid on the sofa.
My prediction:
Scrum - smashed
Line out - smashed
Contact - smashed
Breakdown - smashed
We'll do well to be within 15 points of them at the final whistle. I fear it will be double that.
Very pleased to see Will Spencer starting.
Horrified to see Ben Spencer on the bench and Miles Reid on the sofa.
Quote:dr.bath1865
Looks like a decent squad to me. IF (massive if) we get parity at the scrum, we've got a chance
Nice looking backrow and having Rhys back should make the world of difference. Watson on the wing is exciting and keen to see TdG develop further. That back 3 should be able to diffuse the inevitable FdK box kickathon. On paper, that's a good Sale side but they struggled to put away a Leicester 2nd XV at home last week so they can't be too hot right now.
Yet another one of those games where I have no idea what's going to happen. All outcomes are possible and that is the most frustrating thing about this season as every week I turn on thinking that we've got a chance. Oh well, let's just hope we see a bit of rugby and the rain stays away.
Ha. Got to keep the spirits up somehow, malco, even if they are medicinally induced!
Must say I agree with you about Spencer being benched. Madness. If Spencer needs a sit down, I'd much rather see Fox given a start. Chudley hasn't impressed this season at all and he's not here next, so what is the point of him starting at 9? At least with Rhys, we know he's off but he's going to put in a solid performance and his understudy, Bailey, has had some game time of late.
Must say I agree with you about Spencer being benched. Madness. If Spencer needs a sit down, I'd much rather see Fox given a start. Chudley hasn't impressed this season at all and he's not here next, so what is the point of him starting at 9? At least with Rhys, we know he's off but he's going to put in a solid performance and his understudy, Bailey, has had some game time of late.
Too late for Fox and Green. They've played no rugby - so, yes, it would be way more beneficial for next season, but you just can't really ask them to go out and perform to an acceptable level.
Quote:Pythagoras
The issue at Hooker is complicated by the fact that Walker is, I understand, injured Is Ross Batty fit?.
He looked fit at training on Monday night (he's doing some coaching with Melksham).
Quote:Optimist
Too late for Fox and Green. They've played no rugby - so, yes, it would be way more beneficial for next season, but you just can't really ask them to go out and perform to an acceptable level.
Green has played quite a bit for Jersey (4 or 5 games?) and done pretty well. Atkins less so from the look of the match reports and limited time that he has been on the pitch.
Similarly Doughty has got some match time at Coventry however Butt less so (was on the wing last match).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Fox played in the Utd games and looked good. Even if he's not 100% match sharp, we'd learn more by watching him in the first team – and he'd learn far more too – than we will watching Chudley.
What I'm saying is, if we're focusing on winning as many of our remaining games as possible, start Spencer. If we're looking to next season, play Fox. Picking Chudley has zero benefit IMHO.
What I'm saying is, if we're focusing on winning as many of our remaining games as possible, start Spencer. If we're looking to next season, play Fox. Picking Chudley has zero benefit IMHO.
Chudley came from Exeter with good reviews. The environment obviously brought out the best in him. Same with Judge, Sarries were desperate to keep him and they're no mugs recruitment wise. He was running in tries from the 22 for them (ok, once). Can you imagine him doing that now for us?
'What's that Skippy? There's trouble in the Bath camp? Take us to it and show us, as we didn't know'.
Quote:Mike the Taxi
'What's that Skippy? There's trouble in the Bath camp? Take us to it and show us, as we didn't know'.
That made me laugh!
Christian Judge: "The main point I judge myself by is my set piece," he said. "Without sounding too nerdy on the topic, the scrum is what I really pride myself on and, ultimately, I want to be the best scrummager I can be."
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:Mike the Taxi
'What's that Skippy? There's trouble in the Bath camp? Take us to it and show us, as we didn't know'.
That made me laugh!
Me too. Henceforward BO is Skippy.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
You've got to wonder whether there's another 9 on their way, and Fox/Green maybe on way out. Weren't they both Carnegie proteges of Andy Rock?
Quote:Optimist
You've got to wonder whether there's another 9 on their way, and Fox/Green maybe on way out. Weren't they both Carnegie proteges of Andy Rock?
Yep.
You do have to wonder. I think green will be gone. Assume someone will come in.
I wouldn't be surprised if never playing fox is just down to being stupidly blinkered as normal.
Appreciate playing against a retreating pack tomorrow (assuming he is available) wouldn't be ideal but does he need protecting aged 21/22? Will he learn more playing than watching? Could we get spencer on if he's having a really torrid time?
Teams used restart to prep for this season. We are using these dead rubbers to find out more about our 32 yr old scrum half we have had for 3 seasons who is leaving next month. Sums it up for me.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:13:20:30:52 by charlieboa.
You’d have to be a certain demographic to know who Sally James and Skippy are.
Quote:Woodpecker
You’d have to be a certain demographic to know who Sally James and Skippy are.
True, but please don't tell me you had a thing for Sally James as well Woody, I'm still reeling from the revelation about Prtti Patel!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:13:21:04:47 by shipwrecked.
“the revolution about Pretty Patel!” - I’ll be first in line with the guillotine!
Quote:Optimist
“the revolution about Pretty Patel!” - I’ll be first in line with the guillotine!
Should be 'Pritti Patel' and 'revelation' but now it involves a kangaroo as well.
The world is changing as evidenced by the new Mayor of Bangor Opti.
Hate to say it but you might need to catch up!
Quote:Optimist
“the revolution about Pretty Patel!” - I’ll be first in line with the guillotine!
This is not OK.
Quote:Jim HQuote:Pythagoras
The issue at Hooker is complicated by the fact that Walker is, I understand, injured Is Ross Batty fit?.
He looked fit at training on Monday night (he's doing some coaching with Melksham).
Wonder if batty is off the salary cap?
Got du toit via injury cover maybe?
Quote:malcoQuote:Optimist
“the revolution about Pretty Patel!” - I’ll be first in line with the guillotine!
This is not OK.
Malco I thought from the OT "Liberal" censorship thread that you were the champion of free speech, particularly when so clearly not intended to be taken seriously?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:malcoQuote:Optimist
“the revolution about Pretty Patel!” - I’ll be first in line with the guillotine!
This is not OK.
Malco I thought from the OT "Liberal" censorship thread that you were the champion of free speech, particularly when so clearly not intended to be taken seriously?
That's how I read it- as a pun on the typo, not a political point or incitement to violence.
PG
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:malcoQuote:Optimist
“the revolution about Pretty Patel!” - I’ll be first in line with the guillotine!
This is not OK.
Malco I thought from the OT "Liberal" censorship thread that you were the champion of free speech, particularly when so clearly not intended to be taken seriously?
I'm not arguing the comment should be removed. If Opti thinks this is a comment he wants to be publicly associated with, go ahead and make it. Expect to be criticised for it though.
I don't think threatening an elected representative with the guillotine is in any way appropriate. If this was a Conservative directing the comment at a Labour politician there would be a major rush of criticism.
By all means argue against her policies and beliefs but this is just unpleasant. Pretending that it is in some way a "joke" in no way excuses it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:08:15:55 by malco.
Quote:.Woodpecker
https://youtu.be/hByob-5pPEs
It’s a toss up between the three
Big "thank you" for a Friday morning chuckle wp. Loved it
Quote:malco
Pretending that it is in some way a "joke" in no way excuses it.
Nobody is pretending, it was a joke. One that you didn't find amusing clearly.
(I'm not sure that we would have taken the same joke any differently if it had been anyone of any political party TBH. It was just a pun.)
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:malco
Pretending that it is in some way a "joke" in no way excuses it.
Nobody is pretending, it was a joke. One that you didn't find amusing clearly.
(I'm not sure that we would have taken the same joke any differently if it had been anyone of any political party TBH. It was just a pun.)
Agree Matt, the whole interchange was intended to bring a smile as far as I'm concerned.
From Skippy the Kangaroo to the French Revolution all in one thread, COML is like an encyclopedia, look out Wiki we are coming for you.
Quote:B4thB4ck
From Skippy the Kangaroo to the French Revolution all in one thread, COML is like an encyclopedia, look out Wiki we are coming for you.
Skippy the 'Bush' Kangaroo please BB, this might stir the hears of some!
They certainly carry some speed, I did consider that we could sign on for the wing but I guess they would be constantly pinged for jumping out of the tackle, and as for attempting the wrap with those short arms, well they would be in the sin bin most of the match. Best to avoid signing any Kangeroos I think - Bath recruitment team there is no charge for that bit of advice.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:malco
Pretending that it is in some way a "joke" in no way excuses it.
Nobody is pretending, it was a joke. One that you didn't find amusing clearly.
(I'm not sure that we would have taken the same joke any differently if it had been anyone of any political party TBH. It was just a pun.)
Malco, we all know if she was allowed to do it Priti would bring back the guillotine anyway - she's all for reintroducing the death penalty.
It was a joke, and quite a funny one too.
Sad to say but yet another game where I can only see defeat for Bath.
Not many games anymore where I actually think ... 'looking forward to this, we could score a shed-load'
Must be good being a Bristol fan at the moment - a team that has improved year on year and likely to win their next game, regardless of who they are playing.
Someone tell me next season will be better!
Not many games anymore where I actually think ... 'looking forward to this, we could score a shed-load'
Must be good being a Bristol fan at the moment - a team that has improved year on year and likely to win their next game, regardless of who they are playing.
Someone tell me next season will be better!
Opti,
Can you tell us the truth. Were you:
a) Making a joke based on SWs typo?
b) Literally threatening to guillotine the head off of the home secretary?
Can you tell us the truth. Were you:
a) Making a joke based on SWs typo?
b) Literally threatening to guillotine the head off of the home secretary?
I think you're all missing the point. The guillotine I was referring to was of the old office/paper variety, and the 'revolution' I refer to is simple the pace of change in the modern office clerical equipment sector.
Quote:abendanon-anon-anon
Sad to say but yet another game where I can only see defeat for Bath.
Not many games anymore where I actually think ... 'looking forward to this, we could score a shed-load'
Must be good being a Bristol fan at the moment - a team that has improved year on year and likely to win their next game, regardless of who they are playing.
Someone tell me next season will be better!
Yes, hope next season will be better as I have recently renewed 2 season tickets !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:Optimist
I think you're all missing the point. The guillotine I was referring to was of the old office/paper variety, and the 'revolution' I refer to is simple the pace of change in the modern office clerical equipment sector.
Aah bit like this one?
[www.instructables.com]
Quote:abendanon-anon-anon
Sad to say but yet another game where I can only see defeat for Bath.
Not many games anymore where I actually think ... 'looking forward to this, we could score a shed-load'
Must be good being a Bristol fan at the moment - a team that has improved year on year and likely to win their next game, regardless of who they are playing.
Someone tell me next season will be better!
The sad thing for me is I don't really care that much what happens and have lost the desire to watch Bath play. Guess the good thing though is I don't experience the anger of a defeat.
Quote:woodpecker
Aah bit like this one?
That's a beauty isn't it. Could be used to trim all sorts of documents down to size. Post-match press releases from Bath Rugby could be trimmed down to exclude everything but the date, the opposition, the score and the scorers. And 'Corporate strategic review of objectives and non-aligned and/or asymmetric siloed business divisions' could be reduced to the pertinent headline of 'Yea, we signed Cips. That'll sort it'.
Quote:OutsideBath
The sad thing for me is I don't really care that much what happens and have lost the desire to watch Bath play. Guess the good thing though is I don't experience the anger of a defeat.
Have you still not watched a game since lockdown 1 OB?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Optimist
I think you're all missing the point. The guillotine I was referring to was of the old office/paper variety, and the 'revolution' I refer to is simple the pace of change in the modern office clerical equipment sector.
Sounds a reasonable defence, case dismissed m'lud?
Back on the game, I can't see us winning either but then we do sometimes spring surprises. The lack of a plan B with the backs could haunt us until Cips takes over the back line.
Quote:B4thB4ck
The lack of a plan B with the backs could haunt us until Cips takes over the back line.
You mean there's a Plan A with the backs?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
The sad thing for me is I don't really care that much what happens and have lost the desire to watch Bath play. Guess the good thing though is I don't experience the anger of a defeat.
Have you still not watched a game since lockdown 1 OB?
I watched the Montpellier game, which just confirmed my fear that we’re getting worse under Hooper. Watched the whole game, but had largely lost interest by the end. It’s a shame as I was an almost fanatical fan going to every game before Hooper took charge.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Karl Dickson for Friday night horror show !
Does this mean a game of cards is on the cards !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
The lack of a plan B with the backs could haunt us until Cips takes over the back line.
You mean there's a Plan A with the backs?
Yes, give the ball to the forwards.
Quote:BathMatt53
They certainly carry some speed, I did consider that we could sign on for the wing but I guess they would be constantly pinged for jumping out of the tackle, and as for attempting the wrap with those short arms, well they would be in the sin bin most of the match. Best to avoid signing any Kangeroos I think - Bath recruitment team there is no charge for that bit of advice.
I see, so you are against signing Aussies Matt, good job they don't have kangaroos in New Zealand and S Africa then!
Quote:B4thB4ckQuote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
The lack of a plan B with the backs could haunt us until Cips takes over the back line.
You mean there's a Plan A with the backs?
Yes, give the ball to the forwards.
I'm going to cheer every time a back touches the ball in the opposition half. If we all do it they might hear.
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:B4thB4ckQuote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
The lack of a plan B with the backs could haunt us until Cips takes over the back line.
You mean there's a Plan A with the backs?
Yes, give the ball to the forwards.
I'm going to cheer every time a back touches the ball in the opposition half. If we all do it they might hear.
That's assuming any of our backs get to touch the ball in the opposition half...
Why all the gloom, Bath beat Sale in Manchester so is there any reason why they should loose at home? Unless Bath have got a lot worse and that seems unlikely as Hooper is not planning any major changes to the current plan then it should be Bath by at least 10 points.
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:B4thB4ckQuote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
The lack of a plan B with the backs could haunt us until Cips takes over the back line.
You mean there's a Plan A with the backs?
Yes, give the ball to the forwards.
I'm going to cheer every time a back touches the ball in the opposition half. If we all do it they might hear.
Does Ben Spencer qualify as a back?
Quote:warrenball
Why all the gloom, Bath beat Sale in Manchester so is there any reason why they should loose at home? Unless Bath have got a lot worse and that seems unlikely as Hooper is not planning any major changes to the current plan then it should be Bath by at least 10 points.
There are a few salient reasons to justify the gloom.
Obano
Boyce
Dunn
Walker
Stuart
Reid
Tian Schoeman
Joseph
McConnochie
Matavesi
Faletau and Spencer on the bench and Cokanasiga playing on one leg.
Other than that...
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:woodpeckerQuote:B4thB4ckQuote:BathMatt53Quote:B4thB4ck
The lack of a plan B with the backs could haunt us until Cips takes over the back line.
You mean there's a Plan A with the backs?
Yes, give the ball to the forwards.
I'm going to cheer every time a back touches the ball in the opposition half. If we all do it they might hear.
Does Ben Spencer qualify as a back?
In theory yes, but in my cheering game no as he's the only one who does and I'd get a sore throat. I may even leave out Priestland, although I was pretty safe with Bailey as he never does in either half.
Quote:malcoQuote:warrenball
Why all the gloom, Bath beat Sale in Manchester so is there any reason why they should loose at home? Unless Bath have got a lot worse and that seems unlikely as Hooper is not planning any major changes to the current plan then it should be Bath by at least 10 points.
There are a few salient reasons to justify the gloom.
Obano
Boyce
Dunn
Walker
Stuart
Reid
Tian Schoeman
Joseph
McConnochie
Matavesi
Faletau and Spencer on the bench and Cokanasiga playing on one leg.
Other than that...
Interestingly Malco of those only Dunn, Reid, Josh M were available last time out.
Bath Rugby in Feb:
15. Tom de Glanville, 14. Semesa Rokoduguni, 13. Max Clark, 12. Josh Matavesi, 11. Will Muir, 10. Rhys Priestland, 9. Ben Spencer, 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Christian Judge, 4. Josh McNally (c), 5. Mike Williams, 6. Josh Bayliss, 7. Miles Reid, 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements: 16. Jack Walker, 17. Jamie Bhatti, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Ewan Richards, 20. Ethan Staddon, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Tian Schoeman, 23. Alex Gray
[www.bathrugby.com]
The Sale team wasn't enormously different either although they have 2 different half backs. No for me most of my dread comes from momentum. The only one Sale has lost in the last 6 was vs La Rochelle. Bath are off the back of 3 painful ones. Sale are fighting for a good top 4 place and have it all to play for, Bath are trying to salvage a bit of pride
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I think the first choice Bath team this season has become:
Obano
Dunn
Stuart
McNally
Ewels
Faletau
Underhill
Mercer
Spencer
Priestland
Watson
Redpath
Joseph
McConnochie
De Glanville
Walker, Boyce, Thomas, Spencer, Bayliss, Chudley, Schoeman, Muir
Compare this with the lineup taking the field this evening.
Without checking back I suspect that in no game this season have we seen anything like this team take the field. We have had no consistency of selection. A constant cycle of injuries, bans and international call ups.
This is the biggest factor of all in our under-achievement and complete inconsistency this season. Mix and match teams = mix and match results. I think it is fair to question the efficacy of the coaching team, but that criticism does need to be framed in this context. You need your best players fit and playing with confidence in good form if you are going to consistently win games in such a competitive league.
This has been the case for years now. The same syndrome blighted Blackadder's tenure. It can't just all be bad luck. It has to relate to preparation, fitness and technique.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:16:44:26 by malco.
Obano
Dunn
Stuart
McNally
Ewels
Faletau
Underhill
Mercer
Spencer
Priestland
Watson
Redpath
Joseph
McConnochie
De Glanville
Walker, Boyce, Thomas, Spencer, Bayliss, Chudley, Schoeman, Muir
Compare this with the lineup taking the field this evening.
Without checking back I suspect that in no game this season have we seen anything like this team take the field. We have had no consistency of selection. A constant cycle of injuries, bans and international call ups.
This is the biggest factor of all in our under-achievement and complete inconsistency this season. Mix and match teams = mix and match results. I think it is fair to question the efficacy of the coaching team, but that criticism does need to be framed in this context. You need your best players fit and playing with confidence in good form if you are going to consistently win games in such a competitive league.
This has been the case for years now. The same syndrome blighted Blackadder's tenure. It can't just all be bad luck. It has to relate to preparation, fitness and technique.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:16:44:26 by malco.
Quote:malco
It can't just all be bad luck. It has to relate to preparation, fitness and technique.
Internationals. We knew well before this season (they were talking about it before lockdown 1) that the Internationals were only going to be able to play fewer than half the league games.
Besides which, they are all for different reasons. Some rested, some banned, some injured. That's just part and parcel of any Premiership season isn't it? Bristol have certainly had their fair share of injuries for example. The way through it is to get a squad capable of handling these absences.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:malco
I think the first choice Bath team this season has become:
Obano
Dunn
Stuart
McNally
Ewels
Faletau
Underhill
Mercer
Spencer
Priestland
Watson
Redpath
Joseph
McConnochie
De Glanville
Walker, Boyce, Thomas, Spencer, Bayliss, Chudley, Schoeman, Muir
Without checking back I suspect that in no game this season have we seen anything like this team take the field. We have had no consistency of selection. A constant cycle of injuries, bans and international call ups.
This is the biggest factor of all in our under-achievement and complete inconsistency this season. Mix and match teams = mix and match results. I think it is fair to question the efficacy of the coaching team, but that criticism does need to be framed in this context. You need your best players fit and playing with confidence in good form if you are going to consistently win games in such a competitive league.
This has been the case for years now. The same syndrome blighted Blackadder's tenure. It can't just all be bad luck. It has to relate to preparation, fitness and technique.
Strongly disagree with some of those, no Reid at all, Muir first choice, Bayliss first choice, Stooke over Ewells and Spencer is in there twice.
My impression is that our first choice on paper has underperformed and we have played better with some of our younger players in Premiership games. E.g. Montpellier.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:malco
I think the first choice Bath team this season has become:
Obano
Dunn
Stuart
McNally
Ewels
Faletau
Underhill
Mercer
Spencer
Priestland
Watson
Redpath
Joseph
McConnochie
De Glanville
Walker, Boyce, Thomas, Spencer, Bayliss, Chudley, Schoeman, Muir
Without checking back I suspect that in no game this season have we seen anything like this team take the field. We have had no consistency of selection. A constant cycle of injuries, bans and international call ups.
This is the biggest factor of all in our under-achievement and complete inconsistency this season. Mix and match teams = mix and match results. I think it is fair to question the efficacy of the coaching team, but that criticism does need to be framed in this context. You need your best players fit and playing with confidence in good form if you are going to consistently win games in such a competitive league.
This has been the case for years now. The same syndrome blighted Blackadder's tenure. It can't just all be bad luck. It has to relate to preparation, fitness and technique.
Strongly disagree with some of those, no Reid at all, Muir first choice, Bayliss first choice, Stooke over Ewells and Spencer is in there twice.
My impression is that our first choice on paper has underperformed and we have played better with some of our younger players in Premiership games. E.g. Montpellier.
There are two Spencers.
I'm not saying that this is my favoured choice, I'm saying that this is what I think the coaches would choose. The reason our first choice players have underperformed is, I think, exactly what I have described. No consistency of selection. A constant cycle of selected, injured, called up, banned. Playing with different personnel every week makes it very difficult to build the partnerships and understanding that translates into fluid team performances.
Quote:malco
No consistency of selection. A constant cycle of selected, injured, called up, banned. Playing with different personnel every week makes it very difficult to build the partnerships and understanding that translates into fluid team performances.
That doesn't explain why every team has to go through the same thing and Bath are well down the table. Also other teams (such as the welsh and Irish sides with central contracts) hardly ever have their top players available. Being able to swap players in and out seamlessly is a total necessity in todays top level game. I think that it also doesn't explain Baths lack of ability to make back plays irrespective of personnel.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:malco
The reason our first choice players have underperformed is, I think, exactly what I have described. No consistency of selection. A constant cycle of selected, injured, called up, banned. Playing with different personnel every week makes it very difficult to build the partnerships and understanding that translates into fluid team performances.
For me the reason why our first choice players have underperformed is because they don't need to. They are automatic picks, some like Watson and Underhill have picked up but I suspect that this is because they have had serious selection challenges. Watson from TdG at 15 and Muir on the wing and Underhill from Reid, Baylis and Ellis.
Our younger players are just hungrier, they go hunting and run harder.
The other reason was described well by BM53 'they are playing with the handbrake on'. Perfect example is Ben Spencer playing to instruction to 'play from 9' with Orlando Bailey and to the detriment of the outside backs.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:malco
No consistency of selection. A constant cycle of selected, injured, called up, banned. Playing with different personnel every week makes it very difficult to build the partnerships and understanding that translates into fluid team performances.
That doesn't explain why every team has to go through the same thing and Bath are well down the table. Also other teams (such as the welsh and Irish sides with central contracts) hardly ever have their top players available. Being able to swap players in and out seamlessly is a total necessity in todays top level game. I think that it also doesn't explain Baths lack of ability to make back plays irrespective of personnel.
If the coaching team had a consistent strategy throughout the club that everyone in the squad was clear on and bought into, forced changes in players each week wouldn't be so significant. It would certainly mean injuries etc couldn't be used as an excuse for failure.
To be honest, losing Tian and Rhys within a couple of weeks ago caused us to lose a lot of confidence - and everything started to fall apart from there. We'd had a good run during the 6N (Ex aside) and were beginning to add some offloading and distribution to our game. After that everything shut down and we were only playing tight and off 9.
(This is not Bailey's fault btw).
(This is not Bailey's fault btw).
Quote:hasta
To be honest, losing Tian and Rhys within a couple of weeks ago caused us to lose a lot of confidence - and everything started to fall apart from there. We'd had a good run during the 6N (Ex aside) and were beginning to add some offloading and distribution to our game. After that everything shut down and we were only playing tight and off 9.
(This is not Bailey's fault btw).
That's true Hasta particular in relation to Bailey who has done all that has been asked of him, I am somewhat concerned though as I remember a similar reluctance to play Adam Hastings who went on to star for another club and Scotland. (I totally get the Scotland focus incidentally). Ditto another Scottish 10 Tom Heathcote.
"Playing with different personnel every week makes it very difficult to build the partnerships and understanding that translates into fluid team performances."
Exeter chop and change every single week, have injuries and Int call-ups. But they have a clear playing style that every single squad player understands, buys into and is drilled in - that's what translates into fluid team performances.
We're the opposite - we might pick the same team 2 weeks running and then attempt to play in 2 completely different styles.
Exeter chop and change every single week, have injuries and Int call-ups. But they have a clear playing style that every single squad player understands, buys into and is drilled in - that's what translates into fluid team performances.
We're the opposite - we might pick the same team 2 weeks running and then attempt to play in 2 completely different styles.
Agree completely Opti, good teams are able to change players almost at will and still everyone knows the way the game is supposed to be played.
I enjoyed last weeks game against Bristol simply by backing Bristol. I could cheer for Bath when they scored and was equally pleased when Bristol cut loose, but I can't do that tonight as I have never liked the way Sale play the game. Bath on paper look a very good team, but how many times have we said that only to be disappointed, maybe it would be more informative if at the bottom of each team sheet we included a 24th person, the DOR, which may alter the perception of the other 23?
I enjoyed last weeks game against Bristol simply by backing Bristol. I could cheer for Bath when they scored and was equally pleased when Bristol cut loose, but I can't do that tonight as I have never liked the way Sale play the game. Bath on paper look a very good team, but how many times have we said that only to be disappointed, maybe it would be more informative if at the bottom of each team sheet we included a 24th person, the DOR, which may alter the perception of the other 23?
What's that Skippy? The subs should form a tunnel? OK, just this once, for you.
Great backs score with Cam Redpath on the end !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Score for Josh Bayliss ! 14-7
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Du Toit off injured, doesn’t look good . Tom Doughty on.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Another Sale score 14 - 12.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Awful looking injury for Du Toit, looked like his knee folded up under the weight of the collapsing maul. Real shame because he had been playing very well. I fear Doughty may well struggle.
3rd try for Sale given , looked to me like Not grounded , HT 17-17
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
How much advantage does a team get? They get over the line and drop it but that's not considered enough advantage?
Faf tripped Redpath, but ignored which ends in the Sale score.
Mind you, the pass for redpath's try was miles forward.
Dickson way too keen to blow up before any chance of advantage.
Some good tries, and even turned a lineout against their 15m tall lock.
Can we maintain sufficient intensity in the second half?.........................
Mind you, the pass for redpath's try was miles forward.
Dickson way too keen to blow up before any chance of advantage.
Some good tries, and even turned a lineout against their 15m tall lock.
Can we maintain sufficient intensity in the second half?.........................
40 secs to catch the ball, recycle, kick it out and have a 5 point lead at half time. Applaud Redpath's ambition but keep it tight.
Some good stuff in the first half. Priestland has made a huge difference, Redpath and Clarke have both played well. I don't think we will win, but far better than I was expecting
We are lucky to be level at HT. Sale could/should have scored two other tries and also missed pts with the boot.
Du Toits injury looks nasty, his leg stayed planted as everything around him collapsed.
Don't like Dickson as a ref.
Du Toits injury looks nasty, his leg stayed planted as everything around him collapsed.
Don't like Dickson as a ref.
How incompetent is Karl Dickson?
Gets told 4 times by his assistants that it's a Bath penalty and tries to give advantage to Sale!
Gets told 4 times by his assistants that it's a Bath penalty and tries to give advantage to Sale!
Sale down to 13 and Bath struggle to take advantage.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
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Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Yeah, I only just turned the commentary up and turned it back down again. Lolz must have a collection of 11 different prem team tops.
Bath fail again in the red zone .
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
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Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
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Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
We are making a mess of this but are Sale ever onside?
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
So, so poor ... We really are not very good and rely on a moment of brilliance to make yards or score
Quote:Rokobilly
Dallaglio is so, so awful on comms
Questions every decision in Baths favour and it's always wrong apparently.
Can’t beat a team two players down and can’t keep 15 of our own on the pitch. End the season now please.
We are utter rubbish. Not even a minute into out yellow and Sale score. We play a while against 13 and cannot score. Sorry, Hooper has to leave along with most of this inept coaching team
Trip not even a yellow.
Dickson calls advantage over.
It's foul play Dickson.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:21:50:13 by CoochieCoo.
Dickson calls advantage over.
It's foul play Dickson.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:21:50:13 by CoochieCoo.
Second trip of the match. Picked up by TMO overruled by ref - nit acceptable.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
God, Dickson really is a poor ref. Pearce, CMK, Carley etc all improved but Dickson just seems to get worse.
Blew that again by not taking advantage of the 13 men.
Well played Tom Doughty - didn't miss a lineout.
Well played Tom Doughty - didn't miss a lineout.
Oh dear yellow for Ewels , 5 mins to go . And Sale show Bath how to score in the red zone . 20-24
Some good moves but Bath poor in too many phases. Last chance for Bath and they fail again after several chances in the opposition 22.
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Some good moves but Bath poor in too many phases. Last chance for Bath and they fail again after several chances in the opposition 22.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Failed to take our chances at 5M lineouts so did not deserve to win but Dickson needs to hang hos head ober that trip decision.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Cannot wait for this season to be over. We are so poor. Totally inept. I don't think any part of our game has improved over the season.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:21:52:40 by supermarinematt.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:21:52:40 by supermarinematt.
Dickson hopeless. Bath maybe worse. Really struggling to see the coaching staff survive, defense way too weak, attack non existent. Two good tries from distance but absolutely nothing from structured attack.
Embarrassing. We just offer nothing. “A few tweaks” or just “fine margins” it is not, we are a bottom of the table team for a reason.
With the personnel we had missing it was a good effort to be as close as we were over 80 minutes. A bonus point I didn't expect us to get.
Absolutely clueless in attack inside the Sale 22. Players looked afraid to go into contact and not confident enough to move the ball. Caught in two minds and died with the ball time and time again.
Absolutely clueless in attack inside the Sale 22. Players looked afraid to go into contact and not confident enough to move the ball. Caught in two minds and died with the ball time and time again.
We should have been able to score multiple tries when we had the player advantage in the pack, should have been out of sight with 10 to go. Poor decision making and execution in the red zone when it matters.
The backs looked somewhat better in the first half, actually breaking the line and offloading.... as alway it’s the hope that kills.
The backs looked somewhat better in the first half, actually breaking the line and offloading.... as alway it’s the hope that kills.
Quote:15 vs 13 for 10 mins and no points to show Hooper and the coaches are useless. Only plus the academy hooker looked good.malco
With the personnel we had missing it was a good effort to be as close as we were over 80 minutes. A bonus point I didn't expect us to get.
Absolutely clueless in attack inside the Sale 22. Players looked afraid to go into contact and not confident enough to move the ball. Caught in two minds and died with the ball time and time again.
I can't remember the last time I was so angry at a loss. Its probably only Montpellier two weeks ago but, mon dieu, we are dumb. The last 5 was so predictable, from the yellow to the try to us having one last chance to screw up.
I think Sale conceded >20 penalties!
If I take one positive, it was Tom Doughty. Well done, lad. Very solid and more to come.
I think Sale conceded >20 penalties!
If I take one positive, it was Tom Doughty. Well done, lad. Very solid and more to come.
Truly shocking, except that it’s not shocking anymore. We conspire to beat ourselves. The last 10 minutes demonstrated most of what is wrong on the pitch: poor technique, brainless play, players passing the ball 2 or 3 meters to the scrum half at the back of rucks (if someone did that at junior level rugby their coach would hit the roof). Some of our basic skills are appalling. We seem scared to win or panic sets in!
Yes agreed well played Tom Doughty. Also thought Max Clark had a good game. We really are very weak when we are in the red zone. Should have and could have won that game. Cips looking on hope he makes the difference to get us moving.
Yes, Doughty looked accomplished and fitted in seamlessly. I’m assuming it’s him and hopefully Walker next week as I can see Du Toit’s season over sadly? Though I’m half tempted not to bother tuning in next week as it’ll be the same dross.
Quote:bathstiggQuote:15 vs 13 for 10 mins and no points to show Hooper and the coaches are useless. Only plus the academy hooker looked good.malco
With the personnel we had missing it was a good effort to be as close as we were over 80 minutes. A bonus point I didn't expect us to get.
Absolutely clueless in attack inside the Sale 22. Players looked afraid to go into contact and not confident enough to move the ball. Caught in two minds and died with the ball time and time again.
Max Clark was outstanding both sides of the ball and didn't deserve to be on the losing side. Showed that he currently deserves to be picked ahead of Joseph on merit.
Priestland had a good game, Will Spencer sorted out the lineout and was very effective in the mauls, and Du Toit played well until he was injured.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:22:12:12 by malco.
Possibly the worst performance of a very bad season. Only thing worse than Bath was Dickson, who was terrible for both sides and made for a very poor game.
The only reason we were ahead/in touch was because Sale gave away about 25-30 penalties and something like 15 knock ons. Tom Curry’s quality dragged them over the line in a poor game.
Absolutely mindless last 30 minutes. Start Cipriani at 10 and make him backs coach ASAP. Burn the rest down and start again.
The only reason we were ahead/in touch was because Sale gave away about 25-30 penalties and something like 15 knock ons. Tom Curry’s quality dragged them over the line in a poor game.
Absolutely mindless last 30 minutes. Start Cipriani at 10 and make him backs coach ASAP. Burn the rest down and start again.
Worried about Redpath limping off. Doughty can be very proud of himself. Amazed by the number of scrum pens we got. But attack in the 22 very poor. Pick and go not what it was (although Sale very strong at defending that), needed a better plan and to attack further away from the breakdown - like the McNally break.
When we were two players up we had a few out wide 3 on 1 opportunities go begging because we would inevitably step in and truck it into contact rather than spin it wide.
I still can’t fathom how we conspired to lose when Sale had penalty count like that. Beggars belief.
I still can’t fathom how we conspired to lose when Sale had penalty count like that. Beggars belief.
Quote:Rawce
When we were two players up we had a few out wide 3 on 1 opportunities go begging because we would inevitably step in and truck it into contact rather than spin it wide.
I still can’t fathom how we conspired to lose when Sale had penalty count like that. Beggars belief.
Perhaps because we ignored the fact we had a points machine on the pitch and believed we could score tries from 10 yards out.
How many times do we have to mess up in the forwards before some genius says "Go for the posts Rhys"?
Way too much negativity here.
Malco predicted that we would be smashed at scrum and line-out - we weren't, even with a 5th choice hooker (well played Tom Doughty). The effort out there was intense.
Yes, we should have taken advantage when they had two in the bin, but they have proven this season to be tough to overcome when under such pressure. Sale are a top team with six successive wins, but they are hard to like with cynical defensive plays and an over reliance on overseas imports.
That game could have gone either way - we need to somehow instil that Saracens like mentality where more games like that are won not lost.
Definitely some positives tonight with Doughty, Bayliss, Will Spencer, Clark and de Glanville.
Malco predicted that we would be smashed at scrum and line-out - we weren't, even with a 5th choice hooker (well played Tom Doughty). The effort out there was intense.
Yes, we should have taken advantage when they had two in the bin, but they have proven this season to be tough to overcome when under such pressure. Sale are a top team with six successive wins, but they are hard to like with cynical defensive plays and an over reliance on overseas imports.
That game could have gone either way - we need to somehow instil that Saracens like mentality where more games like that are won not lost.
Definitely some positives tonight with Doughty, Bayliss, Will Spencer, Clark and de Glanville.
Yep, take a few threes for a bit of breathing space then you can pick and go. Especially with the kicking form that Rhys is in.
An extraordinary match. I think the worst refereeing performance I can ever remember. The ball went forward 2 metres for your first try. The Hammersley try was then dissected and they came to the wrong conclusion- he dropped it. Playing on after foul play and then calling advantage over. Umpteen wrong calls at the scrum and the breakdown. Total mixup twice as to who had conceded a penalty. And the list goes on and on. The better team won despite dropping the ball over the line twice, giving penalty after penalty away and being down to 13, and not being able to kick easy attempts at goal. Redpath looks the business. Clark looks a real threat. Is it me or does Faletau not really deserve his Lions place. The Curry brothers are extraordinary. It will be good to see Cips (once a Wasp always a Wasp) running your backs.
Scrum did really well, especially after last week. Maybe that confirms Murty 7s assertion from the Bristol match thread of illegal Briistol scrummaging- but that’s another story.
Doughty had a fine game. Good stuff from Clark and Redpath, de Glanville showed some class too.
I agree with SW about taking the points. We spurned 6 within or on the 22 in kickable positions - enough to put the game beyond Sale’s eventual recovery.
Dickson did not deal at all well with the niggle element of the game and calling time on penaltu advantage for foul play was inexcusable. I hope the club file a protest.
PG
Doughty had a fine game. Good stuff from Clark and Redpath, de Glanville showed some class too.
I agree with SW about taking the points. We spurned 6 within or on the 22 in kickable positions - enough to put the game beyond Sale’s eventual recovery.
Dickson did not deal at all well with the niggle element of the game and calling time on penaltu advantage for foul play was inexcusable. I hope the club file a protest.
PG
Quote:Davenport Sharky
An extraordinary match. I think the worst refereeing performance I can ever remember. The ball went forward 2 metres for your first try.
Appreciate the comments DS and concern for Du Toit who was having a good debut but can't agree about the forward pass from Tom de Glanville to Cameron Redpath.
You are in the opposition 22 and are suddenly awarded penalty advantage, late in the game, needing a try, and against 14 (13?) men. Any team with half a braincell would, naturally, shift the ball out wide and try something, knowing you have a penalty to fall back on.
Do Bath do that? Of course not.
Have they learned from that exact same thing happening against Montpellier? Of course not.
Un-be-lievable. Just incredible.
Do Bath do that? Of course not.
Have they learned from that exact same thing happening against Montpellier? Of course not.
Un-be-lievable. Just incredible.
There were some positives, Clark, Priestland and Doughty, but given the fact that the hooker held his nerve with line out throws the rest of the pack seemed to have lost all idea of a driving maul.
Fortunately for us we had the country's worst referee on our side but even that was not enough. Great performance by Curry, unlike Faletau, he really did look world class. Shame, I really do not like Sale and giving them a bonus point as well
Fortunately for us we had the country's worst referee on our side but even that was not enough. Great performance by Curry, unlike Faletau, he really did look world class. Shame, I really do not like Sale and giving them a bonus point as well
Overall, just pathetic.
You would hope this coaching set-up is embarrassed by how utterly useless we are.
But frankly, losing today after those 80 minutes is probably a good thing, long term. Hopefully we'll lose all our remaining games so that real, meaningful change can finally happen. Send Hooper to earn his stripes. Ditto Mark Lilley and Ryan Davis fgs.
The club needs a complete reboot. Let's see CoochieCoo mock that now after that shambles.
But nah, Tarquin, the man who thought this would work when literally everyone on here knew it wouldn't, will stay put as usual.
Great to see our usual inability to hold onto the ball for longer than 2 passes is still going strong. Comical.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:23:45:24 by ballsout.
You would hope this coaching set-up is embarrassed by how utterly useless we are.
But frankly, losing today after those 80 minutes is probably a good thing, long term. Hopefully we'll lose all our remaining games so that real, meaningful change can finally happen. Send Hooper to earn his stripes. Ditto Mark Lilley and Ryan Davis fgs.
The club needs a complete reboot. Let's see CoochieCoo mock that now after that shambles.
But nah, Tarquin, the man who thought this would work when literally everyone on here knew it wouldn't, will stay put as usual.
Great to see our usual inability to hold onto the ball for longer than 2 passes is still going strong. Comical.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:14:23:45:24 by ballsout.
It's embarrassing when people try and blame the ref or make excuses about players that are missing. It's completely misplaced and totally ignores the blindingly obvious problem that our coaching team is not fit to lead a team of this calibre. We're just wasting time until the management team are replaced at the end of next season, when we finish 10th. Again.
It's not just the coaching team. We've had loads of them over the past decade and they've all lead to failure.
The whole club environment has hit a new low.
The whole club environment has hit a new low.
Think you need to get shot of Hooper sorry. Though Cips if he’s on it will make a difference. Your backline is crazy good.
Love the freeze frame photo of the forward pass showing it going forward yet claiming it wasnt.
Bath are very fine margins from being great. Sale have played many poorer teams this season I think.
Love the freeze frame photo of the forward pass showing it going forward yet claiming it wasnt.
Bath are very fine margins from being great. Sale have played many poorer teams this season I think.
That's some incredible power you have being able to look at a two dimensional free frame image on an angle and be able to tell where it's travelling.
We're miles, and miles from being great, but thanks for the input.
We're miles, and miles from being great, but thanks for the input.
Always looks like miles but never is. You were in the play off last season so can’t be that far off. Sale have had small tweaks from a new DOR and we look like serious title contenders. Struggled to make top 6 before.
Freeze frames show the position of the ball and the angle. You can tell from a freeze frame. At the tv frame rate you can see the trail enough. Doesn’t matter anyway.
Freeze frames show the position of the ball and the angle. You can tell from a freeze frame. At the tv frame rate you can see the trail enough. Doesn’t matter anyway.
Utterly hopeless that we can’t win regardless of superior player numbers, field position or a boss eyed referee. Why would any of us want to watch a team that cannot deliver a win from any situation. In the past we have had bad runs but we invariably are so hurt by previous defeats we turn things around. That just doesn’t happen now.
Quote:clutch
Always looks like miles but never is. You were in the play off last season so can’t be that far off. Sale have had small tweaks from a new DOR and we look like serious title contenders. Struggled to make top 6 before.
You should have made top 4 last season. We were very fortunate to take 4th place & have gone backwards this season.
Quote:clutch
Love the freeze frame photo of the forward pass showing it going forward yet claiming it wasnt.
Clearly you don't understand the definition then, might be worth looking that up!
Quote:ballsout
You are in the opposition 22 and are suddenly awarded penalty advantage, late in the game, needing a try, and against 14 (13?) men. Any team with half a braincell would, naturally, shift the ball out wide and try something, knowing you have a penalty to fall back on.
Do Bath do that? Of course not.
Have they learned from that exact same thing happening against Montpellier? Of course not.
Un-be-lievable. Just incredible.
This really got to me. Especially after they actually gained some significant yardage through the hands before it was called back for the penalty.
And yet again we concede 4 tries after of that's not just a normal part of the game. We're so poor at defending on own line that even average teams profit from kicking to the corner rather than taking the three...
Just watched the game. We lost narrowly to a top 4 team and we could easily have won. We just failed to make the most of our chances. AGAIN. The same weaknesses, the same boneheadedness, the same lack of any coherent vision. It is very frustrating. Sale showed us how it should be done and I hope we learn. I'm prepared to bet quite a large sum of money that we won't.
My MotM - Tom Doughty. Very, very well played, young man.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
My MotM - Tom Doughty. Very, very well played, young man.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Bath have lost 4 matches in a row all from winning positions. On TV you only see Hatley and Hooper but not the backs coach Dempsey? My understanding is Williams the new backs coach next season left Bath in 2013 before the Mike Ford era. BT sports are promoting the battle for 8th place! I'm not sure we will even get there with this set up.
Quote:ballsout
You are in the opposition 22 and are suddenly awarded penalty advantage, late in the game, needing a try, and against 14 (13?) men. Any team with half a braincell would, naturally, shift the ball out wide and try something, knowing you have a penalty to fall back on.
Do Bath do that? Of course not.
Have they learned from that exact same thing happening against Montpellier? Of course not.
Un-be-lievable. Just incredible.
It was indeed incredible.
If they needed some point of reference they didn't have to look far. Literally the team stood in front of them had scored 2 tries wide earlier after failing to score through tight carries/pick and drives.
They did it against 15 , we couldn't against 13/14. Embarrassing. Genuinely looked clueless- rhys getting the ball when he didn't want it then flopping at the feet of two amazing jackalers summed up our attacking prowess. cips must be thinking he will be treated like the messiah for having an ounce of creativity and vision.
That game was handed to us on a plate and we found a way to lose.
Yes there were some positives but who cares cos they will be negatives next week... then positives again....then negatives....
Quote:SJS
Hopeless.
Agreed… I just wish we were Hooperless!
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Hopefully we miss out on top 8.
We are much better served in the little cup.
Focus on the league. If you get to knock out stage then go for it.
We never get out of big cup pool despite throwing everything at it and we pick up injuries/ don't rotate.
We are much better served in the little cup.
Focus on the league. If you get to knock out stage then go for it.
We never get out of big cup pool despite throwing everything at it and we pick up injuries/ don't rotate.
Exe supporter in peace. Dispassionate view of that is that it must be rare for an opponent not to win a match where the oppo concede more than 23 penalties and have 3 men binned. It seemed that in the last 20 as fatigue became a factor all the precision went from the Bath game, with appalling passes from the pressure points , poor positioning and a general lack of awareness.
Generally the younger unsung players seem to do the business, Bayliss, Doughty, Clark, Redpath,McNally. Faletau only seems to put himself about for Wales & the Lions, Joe Co can’t defend.
Make Bayliss captain now and build the pack around him. Let Cips coach and run the backs.
I don’t like to criticise referees but I would simply say that Dicksons form has not improved this season, and I groan whenever I see he is to ref a match.
Generally the younger unsung players seem to do the business, Bayliss, Doughty, Clark, Redpath,McNally. Faletau only seems to put himself about for Wales & the Lions, Joe Co can’t defend.
Make Bayliss captain now and build the pack around him. Let Cips coach and run the backs.
I don’t like to criticise referees but I would simply say that Dicksons form has not improved this season, and I groan whenever I see he is to ref a match.
All fair debonair and thanks for posting. I find the input of neutrals interesting and sometimes more value than us one eyed, largely demoralised lot.....though most of us rate bayliss as highly as you.
I love faletau , he is class.. but he is marquee.
Does he add as much as luatua, piatau, hogg, de klerk, biggar, Ford (Smith next season will be marquee at quins). Think its a fairly non controversial 'no'. Tbf they all get paid significantly more than him if rumours are true
I love faletau , he is class.. but he is marquee.
Does he add as much as luatua, piatau, hogg, de klerk, biggar, Ford (Smith next season will be marquee at quins). Think its a fairly non controversial 'no'. Tbf they all get paid significantly more than him if rumours are true
Various comments regarding mindless decision making and to me the the Captain and the brains trust missed the obvious.
Rolling maul pulled down and replacement scrum half joins a wing forward in the bin. Bath penalty 5 metres out. We kick into touch.
The Bath pack were in the ascendency as indicated by the penalty count in the scrums in Bath's favour. Sale were missing a forward and a back. Old fashion scrum 8 v 7. Push over try a probability with other outcomes being collapsed scrums (reset/ collapse etc) and penalty try and a further yellow and /or an extra back with the Sale forwards tied in to the scrum and just maybe a back's try.
That is a lack of clear thinking by the leadership on the pitch (and off if the water carriers received a message from the coaches).
How many times do we have to repeat the same mistakes.....
Rolling maul pulled down and replacement scrum half joins a wing forward in the bin. Bath penalty 5 metres out. We kick into touch.
The Bath pack were in the ascendency as indicated by the penalty count in the scrums in Bath's favour. Sale were missing a forward and a back. Old fashion scrum 8 v 7. Push over try a probability with other outcomes being collapsed scrums (reset/ collapse etc) and penalty try and a further yellow and /or an extra back with the Sale forwards tied in to the scrum and just maybe a back's try.
That is a lack of clear thinking by the leadership on the pitch (and off if the water carriers received a message from the coaches).
How many times do we have to repeat the same mistakes.....
Thats fair disunited and I agree.
I have a degree of sympathy re decision making because if you are playing incompetently then any decision looks wrong. You decide to kick for touch and don't execute the rolling maul. You tap and go then someone knocks on. You scrum and someone gives a cheap pen away. I don't think there is any trust in managing to execute anything. In theory any of those options are acceptable in my mind but you look stupid if the team balls it up.
As I say my one huge gripe is that game after game we fail to mix our game up in the 22. Every single other team inc sale last night fling it wide once the tight stuff has lured all the defence narrow and walk a try in. I am not sure if it's lack of vision or lack of skill...probably both.
I have a degree of sympathy re decision making because if you are playing incompetently then any decision looks wrong. You decide to kick for touch and don't execute the rolling maul. You tap and go then someone knocks on. You scrum and someone gives a cheap pen away. I don't think there is any trust in managing to execute anything. In theory any of those options are acceptable in my mind but you look stupid if the team balls it up.
As I say my one huge gripe is that game after game we fail to mix our game up in the 22. Every single other team inc sale last night fling it wide once the tight stuff has lured all the defence narrow and walk a try in. I am not sure if it's lack of vision or lack of skill...probably both.
Quote:They all provide so much more impact for their team than Faletau, both in performance, leadership and emotion, they are worth more to their clubs.charlieboa
I love faletau , he is class.. but he is marquee.
Does he add as much as luatua, piatau, hogg, de klerk, biggar, Ford (Smith next season will be marquee at quins). Think its a fairly non controversial 'no'. Tbf they all get paid significantly more than him if rumours are true
I wonder if next season we will play him mainly at 8 and maybe we’ll get more out of him??
Back on recent performances, a few weeks ago there was some talk of Bath being more efficient in the ‘red zone’ than anyone else (including Exeter). That seems to have been totally reliant on the presence of Obano and Stuart in the team, either that or the media talk got in the teams head and they now think they are better than they are currently. When I have heard Rob Baxter talk about their pick and go game, he says “you can stop it if you commit enough players to it, but then we will score out wide where there is space” this seems to be the next lesson for Bath to learn and execute.
*edited to correctly include the word "few"
Must say, one of very [ few ] bright spots for me was that TdG looks class. His ability to beat players in attack - both with ball in hand and by changing his running lines before he receives it - is rare.
It’s almost as if an under23 team would beat our first XV. Or at least they’d be a lot more fun to watch.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:15:09:29:10 by dr.bath1865.
Must say, one of very [ few ] bright spots for me was that TdG looks class. His ability to beat players in attack - both with ball in hand and by changing his running lines before he receives it - is rare.
It’s almost as if an under23 team would beat our first XV. Or at least they’d be a lot more fun to watch.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:15:09:29:10 by dr.bath1865.
Quote:dcshQuote:They all provide so much more impact for their team than Faletau, both in performance, leadership and emotion, they are worth more to their clubs.charlieboa
I love faletau , he is class.. but he is marquee.
Does he add as much as luatua, piatau, hogg, de klerk, biggar, Ford (Smith next season will be marquee at quins). Think its a fairly non controversial 'no'. Tbf they all get paid significantly more than him if rumours are true
I wonder if next season we will play him mainly at 8 and maybe we’ll get more out of him??
Back on recent performances, a few weeks ago there was some talk of Bath being more efficient in the ‘red zone’ than anyone else (including Exeter). That seems to have been totally reliant on the presence of Obano and Stuart in the team, either that or the media talk got in the teams head and they now think they are better than they are currently. When I have heard Rob Baxter talk about their pick and go game, he says “you can stop it if you commit enough players to it, but then we will score out wide where there is space” this seems to be the next lesson for Bath to learn and execute.
He is an 8 isn't he and gets pushed to 6 cos he is a better 6 than mercer. I think at 8 he will go better and I think coetzee at 6 would offer good balance. Then you still have reid, bayliss, underhill, ellis, merigan....possibly williams.
I think our game in the 22 is hugely reliant on beno and stuart as you say. As baxter says its 100% about recognising the options wide and executing if the tight options aren't working. Something we are laughably bad at that I think cips can fix.
Quote:dr.bath1865
Must say, one of very bright spots for me was that TdG looks class. His ability to beat players in attack - both with ball in hand and by changing his running lines before he receives it - is rare.
It’s almost as if an under23 team would beat our first XV. Or at least they’d be a lot more fun to watch.
Agree, he is class. Could have a field day off someone like cips with his rugby intelligence and picking of great lines/soft shoulders.
I certainly feel a u23 team could leave a few bloodied noses and some reputational damage at minimum! I guess they should give us some hope but things need to change otherwise they will just drop off aswell
The fact that we haven’t got Beno or Stuart is very relevant. I was screaming at the Telly to get the ball wide as we must have had lots of space with them down two men. This to me is clearly an issue with on field decision making.
Decision making also comes into play as to whether we should have taken the points instead of going to the corners with a hooker playing his first premiership game albeit he did a great job.
All round our game management in the second half was very poor.
Max Clark in his post match interview mentioned that the group had discussed their red zone deficiencies but did not execute what was discussed. We talk about heads up rugby and I for one want players to use their initiative but pragmatism must come into play. If it isn’t working do something different.
Decision making also comes into play as to whether we should have taken the points instead of going to the corners with a hooker playing his first premiership game albeit he did a great job.
All round our game management in the second half was very poor.
Max Clark in his post match interview mentioned that the group had discussed their red zone deficiencies but did not execute what was discussed. We talk about heads up rugby and I for one want players to use their initiative but pragmatism must come into play. If it isn’t working do something different.
Agree its decision making but also think its ability/skill levels a bit aswell. Faf de klerk made the decision cos he knows he can execute an accurate 25 yd pass and knows someone will be on his wavelength.
Tbf I expect spencer could do that if someone was on his wavelength but its really not rhys' game.
I love rhys but I do buy into a comment someone said on here that he often wins us tight games that wouldn't have been right games if we had a more rounded 10.
Tbf I expect spencer could do that if someone was on his wavelength but its really not rhys' game.
I love rhys but I do buy into a comment someone said on here that he often wins us tight games that wouldn't have been right games if we had a more rounded 10.
Looked to me as if your pack ran out of steam at the precise point Sale were down to 13. Strength and Conditioning team in place. Had hoped you would do us a favour!
In hindsight, when their 9 was carded, going for the corner was not smart at all. Ewells, Priestland and Spencer had a chat, so collective leadership failing there.
Scrum. Sale's options then would be:
Pack down with 7, and 6 backs, including a stand in scrum half
Pack down with 8, and 5 backs, and then have the dilema of whether or not to have someone at 9.
There had to be more options for us to score in those scenarios than kicking for the corner where they then match our numbers in the lineout.
Scrum. Sale's options then would be:
Pack down with 7, and 6 backs, including a stand in scrum half
Pack down with 8, and 5 backs, and then have the dilema of whether or not to have someone at 9.
There had to be more options for us to score in those scenarios than kicking for the corner where they then match our numbers in the lineout.
It’s funny that there is so much talk about Cips fixing this & that. We have been so disillusioned with Dempsey’s contribution we assume that our new attack coach, David Williams, will have no influence whatsoever. I hear that he’s much more assertive & has done the business in SA. Let’s wait & see.
Quote:Bath Hammer
It’s funny that there is so much talk about Cips fixing this & that. We have been so disillusioned with Dempsey’s contribution we assume that our new attack coach, David Williams, will have no influence whatsoever. I hear that he’s much more assertive & has done the business in SA. Let’s wait & see.
Does Cipriani realise he’s the messiah?
Careful what you wish for.
I recall quite a lot of expectation that Dempsey would enliven our attack!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
I recall quite a lot of expectation that Dempsey would enliven our attack!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quote:Bath Hammer
It’s funny that there is so much talk about Cips fixing this & that. We have been so disillusioned with Dempsey’s contribution we assume that our new attack coach, David Williams, will have no influence whatsoever. I hear that he’s much more assertive & has done the business in SA. Let’s wait & see.
I think we all acknowledge that cips is a big risk and there is as much chance of him being a disaster as there is of him fixing some of our probs. Nothing wrong with a bit of optimism that it may go well . ..
Great to hear some positivity about dave williams. Let's hope he is the man to get things moving the right way as relying on a 33 yr old 10 is a bit desperate (tho as I say I think he could have won us games this season inc last night).
I think there was a bit of concern that has been here before, no one really remembers him or if his impact was positive, he is mates with hats so will he come in and be as challenging as we need him to be. To hear he is assertive and doing good things in current role is music to my ears
Cips should improve the control and decision making at 10 and bring in the 12 and 13 better than Priestland. He will also mentor Bailey well.
Certainly cannot be much worse when the pressure is on to play wide and take chances! No doubt it will look and feel different next season.
Certainly cannot be much worse when the pressure is on to play wide and take chances! No doubt it will look and feel different next season.
The strange thing about that match is that you can come away from it thinking that Bath are basically rubbish, but that's not quite right, its like we are almost very good, but there's something not right, the team doesnt have a collective brain. It's, partly the coaching but also the make-up of the team is not quite right, the dynamic is wrong.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Exasperated by the system - have tried to post this 4 times without success as blocked by "moderator". Come on chaps, get to it.
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Exasperated by the system - have tried to post this 4 times without success as blocked by "moderator". Come on chaps, get to it.
“Almost very good” is a fair description Woody, but the result of “no collective brain” is a poor set of results and league position.
If the whole squad buy in to a heads up plan, giood. Otherwise Williams and Cips have an uphill battle.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
If the whole squad buy in to a heads up plan, giood. Otherwise Williams and Cips have an uphill battle.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quote:charlieboaQuote:dcshQuote:They all provide so much more impact for their team than Faletau, both in performance, leadership and emotion, they are worth more to their clubs.charlieboa
I love faletau , he is class.. but he is marquee.
Does he add as much as luatua, piatau, hogg, de klerk, biggar, Ford (Smith next season will be marquee at quins). Think its a fairly non controversial 'no'. Tbf they all get paid significantly more than him if rumours are true
I wonder if next season we will play him mainly at 8 and maybe we’ll get more out of him??
Back on recent performances, a few weeks ago there was some talk of Bath being more efficient in the ‘red zone’ than anyone else (including Exeter). That seems to have been totally reliant on the presence of Obano and Stuart in the team, either that or the media talk got in the teams head and they now think they are better than they are currently. When I have heard Rob Baxter talk about their pick and go game, he says “you can stop it if you commit enough players to it, but then we will score out wide where there is space” this seems to be the next lesson for Bath to learn and execute.
He is an 8 isn't he and gets pushed to 6 cos he is a better 6 than mercer. I think at 8 he will go better and I think coetzee at 6 would offer good balance. Then you still have reid, bayliss, underhill, ellis, merigan....possibly williams.
I think our game in the 22 is hugely reliant on beno and stuart as you say. As baxter says its 100% about recognising the options wide and executing if the tight options aren't working. Something we are laughably bad at that I think cips can fix.
Its certainly about variety and in our case a complete lack of it!
What I simply can't get my head round is our complete idiocy when we get in the 22.
Example, the coaches spend time devising a line out ploy where Muir wins through his ability in the air and other backs support the drive.
Chances of winning that line out are massively increased, so what happens, we win it and pass to Priestland who has no backs to pass to and gets turned over.
If its inevitable that we win that line out why didn't Priestland sit back in a pocket so if the drive doesn't work we get 3 from a dropped goal to ensure points from that visit to the 22?
At the beginning of the BT commentary Dellaglio spoke out Sales recent rise, citing Sanderson's impact and his teaming with Craig White to develop mental strength and confidence.
He talked of the balance between a coach driven team and a player driven team pointing out that Diamond was coach driven and recently the move was away from coaches with Craig White enabling players to decide on the pitch.
Does that ring any bells to Bath and England fans?
We need exactly this, Muir in the line out is a clear coaching instruction but when that goes wrong no one has told the players what to do so they can't think for themselves.
If Priestland had thought for one moment what he was going to do if he got the ball I'm not sure he would have voted to be sacked by Wiese, a 'du Preez' or one off the Curry brothers.
Quote:Dorset Boy
In hindsight, when their 9 was carded, going for the corner was not smart at all. Ewells, Priestland and Spencer had a chat, so collective leadership failing there.
Scrum. Sale's options then would be:
Pack down with 7, and 6 backs, including a stand in scrum half
Pack down with 8, and 5 backs, and then have the dilema of whether or not to have someone at 9.
There had to be more options for us to score in those scenarios than kicking for the corner where they then match our numbers in the lineout.
DB...could almost have read my mind..or post!
Quote:annie blackthorn
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
You realise don’t you that Cipriani only arrived at the club this week, he hasn’t played since the start of the season and Hooper has said he isn’t expected to play until next season? So seems a bit early to take a pop at him.
There is no belief in the the team that they can win these types of games. We lack cohesion, understanding and belief.
Last night was another example where we completely and utterly blew it.
As I have said before something is not right whether it is the coaching, attitude, understanding or all of them. What we are definitely missing as mentioned last night by BT Sport is a bit of Dog. A player willing to mix it.
I don't want this to sound like I.am picking on Hooper because I.am not for one minute suggesting he is the sole.issue. I personally would.just love to see a bit of emotion from him when interviewed, I have no doubt he cares and is hurting- show it get angry, vent frustration just show us all how much you care. At the moment it is Yawn Yawn Yawn. Monotone rubbish IMHO.
There is a very good chance we will be out of the top 8, Wasps should get a 5 point against Warriors and Tigers at home.could well turn over Quins. To be fair both Tigers and Wasps are at the time better teams than we are - simple.
Last night was another example where we completely and utterly blew it.
As I have said before something is not right whether it is the coaching, attitude, understanding or all of them. What we are definitely missing as mentioned last night by BT Sport is a bit of Dog. A player willing to mix it.
I don't want this to sound like I.am picking on Hooper because I.am not for one minute suggesting he is the sole.issue. I personally would.just love to see a bit of emotion from him when interviewed, I have no doubt he cares and is hurting- show it get angry, vent frustration just show us all how much you care. At the moment it is Yawn Yawn Yawn. Monotone rubbish IMHO.
There is a very good chance we will be out of the top 8, Wasps should get a 5 point against Warriors and Tigers at home.could well turn over Quins. To be fair both Tigers and Wasps are at the time better teams than we are - simple.
When I saw the strong bench and they came on I thought we may hold on to our lead, but again we just ran out of steam and all logical thinking went out of the window. I presume TdG was injured, why else call on Joe C who must be carrying a knock as he has not really done anything since he came back and TF may be world class but he hides it well for Bath.
Quote:Old Bath TubQuote:Old Bath Tub
Karl Dickson for Friday night horror show !
Does this mean a game of cards is on the cards !
It was but at least no Reds!
Just watched the game again ( Painful but not as bad a score line as i anticipated) and have to agree about previous comments including Mr Dickson who was reasonable but now poor, but he's not the reason we lost. As in previous games very poor decision making in the oppo 22.
There is light at the end of the tunnel but due not knowing where the tunnel is the light at the end will be turned off to save electric.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:Old Bath TubQuote:Old Bath TubQuote:Old Bath Tub
Karl Dickson for Friday night horror show !
Does this mean a game of cards is on the cards !
It was but at least no Reds!
Just watched the game again ( Painful but not as bad a score line as i anticipated) and have to agree about previous comments including Mr Dickson who was reasonable but now poor, but he's not the reason we lost. As in previous games very poor decision making in the oppo 22.
He was the reason why you should have won!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:15:12:23:35 by Chris1850.
Quote:annie blackthorn
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Exasperated by the system - have tried to post this 4 times without success as blocked by "moderator". Come on chaps, get to it.
SN does not give moderators power to block a post. Your first attempt went through but for some reason you got a message saying your post needs approval. This happens because the system thinks you are duplicating the post which you did and then it means we have to approve, as I have now done to show you. My advice is, post and ignore the message and check it has gone in.
If it happens again take a screenshot of the message and either send it to me by DM or send it to the email address at the foot of the page.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:15:12:42:58 by CoochieCoo.
Quote:CoochieCooQuote:annie blackthorn
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Top 2 inches again - or as commented, fitness / stamina. Come on Bath boys, you are better than this and as ever for all the hype about Mr Cipriani, its a 15 man game and everyone of you counts. I think its priceless that he hasn't been put on the team sheet. Expensive extra left at home?
Exasperated by the system - have tried to post this 4 times without success as blocked by "moderator". Come on chaps, get to it.
SN does not give moderators power to block a post. Your first attempt went through but for some reason you got a message saying your post needs approval. This happens because the system thinks you are duplicating the post which you did and then it means we have to approve, as I have now done to show you. My advice is, post and ignore the message and check it has gone in.
If it happens again take a screenshot of the message and either send it to me my DM or send it to the email address at the foot of the page.
It happens if the internet connected is slow sometimes and you think it hasn't worked and click again thinking it failed.
The system see two posts so does the approval thing and blocks any additional posts which it sees as spam.
Key is ........... be patient and wait after clicking!
a couple of nice open field tries though the tdg pass looked miles forward. max clark starting to look a better option at 13 than joseph. the young(ish) hooker did good. otherwise it was a rerun of the montpellier game with attempts to score in the last 20 minutes utterly pathetic. strangely a couple of gilt edged chances on their 5 meter line were butchered by ben spencer indecision. i think it is time we cut TF loose.
Clark played well, but to say twice in an interview after the game that he "can't put his finger on why we didn't score when we visited the 22" is a massive worry. No reflection on Clark but if you can't as a team identify what went wrong even after the game has finished how on earth can they do so when actually playing?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:bardofavon
a couple of nice open field tries though the tdg pass looked miles forward. max clark starting to look a better option at 13 than joseph. the young(ish) hooker did good. otherwise it was a rerun of the montpellier game with attempts to score in the last 20 minutes utterly pathetic. strangely a couple of gilt edged chances on their 5 meter line were butchered by ben spencer indecision. i think it is time we cut TF loose.
Look at the relative positions of the players, the ball can travel forwards with it being a forward pass.
The pass for our first try was well forward - video here [www.youtube.com].
TdG passes from a light green bit of grass and Redpath collects in the middle of a dark green bit of grass...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:15:16:06:59 by Clarkey3k.
TdG passes from a light green bit of grass and Redpath collects in the middle of a dark green bit of grass...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:15:16:06:59 by Clarkey3k.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:bardofavon
a couple of nice open field tries though the tdg pass looked miles forward. max clark starting to look a better option at 13 than joseph. the young(ish) hooker did good. otherwise it was a rerun of the montpellier game with attempts to score in the last 20 minutes utterly pathetic. strangely a couple of gilt edged chances on their 5 meter line were butchered by ben spencer indecision. i think it is time we cut TF loose.
Look at the relative positions of the players, the ball can travel forwards with it being a forward pass.
Assume you mean ‘without it being a forward pass’?!
I get the argument, but it doesn’t look great and would be hard to explain this to a casual viewer. If it had been against Bath I expect plenty on here would be questioning why it wasn’t at least look at, as it didn’t really look like it came out of the hands backwards.
Stuart says he’s frustrated and we should have won ..............same old ?
Here
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Here
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Speaking of coaches attitudes, I remember this game:
[www.skysports.com]
Vesty should have had a try (which would have got us a try bp) and denied Wasps a losing bp - but prematurely celebrated and Varndell chased back and forced a knock-on. That losing bp saved Wasps from relegation (and probably kept them in existence).
After the game and a couple of pints of Gem, my friend and I bumped into Brad Davis. After exchanging pleasantries we mentioned the incident and Davis said 'I told him if he does it again I'm going to burn his <expletive deleted> house down'. I'm sure it was slightly in jest but it was just nice to see a coach demonstrate that he cares about the situation in conversation with the fans. I'm sure all the team are hurting, and I don't need to see self-flagellation all the time, but good lord it would be nice to see someone appear to care about the fact that we've had our worst ever home season and by almost any possible measure have significantly regressed this year.
[www.skysports.com]
Vesty should have had a try (which would have got us a try bp) and denied Wasps a losing bp - but prematurely celebrated and Varndell chased back and forced a knock-on. That losing bp saved Wasps from relegation (and probably kept them in existence).
After the game and a couple of pints of Gem, my friend and I bumped into Brad Davis. After exchanging pleasantries we mentioned the incident and Davis said 'I told him if he does it again I'm going to burn his <expletive deleted> house down'. I'm sure it was slightly in jest but it was just nice to see a coach demonstrate that he cares about the situation in conversation with the fans. I'm sure all the team are hurting, and I don't need to see self-flagellation all the time, but good lord it would be nice to see someone appear to care about the fact that we've had our worst ever home season and by almost any possible measure have significantly regressed this year.
No, look at the video, its hard from the angle but TdG is looking backwards his hands are out in front of him and he passes back to Redpath. His hands are forward but the ball leaves his hands backwards. He is twisted backwards towards Redpath.
Look at the angles, there is loads of this online. Ref is well up with play, not called on commentary, no TMO intervention either.
Forget the ball its if it leaves his hands forward.
I know the Law says' if the ball moves towards the opponents dead ball line' but this is the current interpretation. Relative velocity.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Look at the angles, there is loads of this online. Ref is well up with play, not called on commentary, no TMO intervention either.
Forget the ball its if it leaves his hands forward.
I know the Law says' if the ball moves towards the opponents dead ball line' but this is the current interpretation. Relative velocity.
Quote:hasta
I fully understand relative velocity. This was a forward pass.
Then please explain to me how from those angles the ball can go forward from his hands then Hasta. Why was it not mentioned by neither the ref, the TMO or the commentary team who were there?
I'm prepared to accept I'm wrong if someone shows me some proof rather than just state an opinion.
Quote:
Perhaps Hooper should read comments on this forum then he might understand what frustration really is.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:hasta
I fully understand relative velocity. This was a forward pass.
Then please explain to me how from those angles the ball can go forward from his hands then Hasta. Why was it not mentioned by neither the ref, the TMO or the commentary team who were there?
I'm prepared to accept I'm wrong if someone shows me some proof rather than just state an opinion.
From the screen grab you posted earlier, how is the ball going backwards from his hands?
Quote:MaeghtQuote:shipwreckedQuote:hasta
I fully understand relative velocity. This was a forward pass.
Then please explain to me how from those angles the ball can go forward from his hands then Hasta. Why was it not mentioned by neither the ref, the TMO or the commentary team who were there?
I'm prepared to accept I'm wrong if someone shows me some proof rather than just state an opinion.
From the screen grab you posted earlier, how is the ball going backwards from his hands?
Because de Glanville holds the ball out in front of him and twists his body deliberately. (see below).
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:MaeghtQuote:shipwreckedQuote:hasta
I fully understand relative velocity. This was a forward pass.
Then please explain to me how from those angles the ball can go forward from his hands then Hasta. Why was it not mentioned by neither the ref, the TMO or the commentary team who were there?
I'm prepared to accept I'm wrong if someone shows me some proof rather than just state an opinion.
From the screen grab you posted earlier, how is the ball going backwards from his hands?
Because de Glanville holds the ball out in front of him and twists his body deliberately. (see below).
But the first screengrab shows that a moment after release the ball is in front of him. Just how can it be passed backwards and result in that?
Quote:hasta
Speaking of coaches attitudes, I remember this game:
[www.skysports.com]
Vesty should have had a try (which would have got us a try bp) and denied Wasps a losing bp - but prematurely celebrated and Varndell chased back and forced a knock-on. That losing bp saved Wasps from relegation (and probably kept them in existence).
After the game and a couple of pints of Gem, my friend and I bumped into Brad Davis. After exchanging pleasantries we mentioned the incident and Davis said 'I told him if he does it again I'm going to burn his <expletive deleted> house down'. I'm sure it was slightly in jest but it was just nice to see a coach demonstrate that he cares about the situation in conversation with the fans. I'm sure all the team are hurting, and I don't need to see self-flagellation all the time, but good lord it would be nice to see someone appear to care about the fact that we've had our worst ever home season and by almost any possible measure have significantly regressed this year.
And you don't think the coaches care? Really? If the coaches chucked the players under the bus then everyone would say that's wrong. The bad performances are not just to do with the coaches
De Glanville is deliberately manipulating his body by turning/twisting left to face as sideways as possible (anticlockwise), he is travelling at speed and he holds the ball out in front of him.
Now try it yourself, turn left and try to throw the ball in the opposite direction to the turn, its almost impossible.
He does that in order to ensure the ball leaves his hands backwards. In this instance he is turning to face the assistant referee who is slightly behind play. His target is Redpath who is 7-8 metres behind him.
The only thing that matters according to World rugby is that the ball must leave his hands backwards. What happens to the ball is not relevant. World rugby have done a video on that aspect of it.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Now try it yourself, turn left and try to throw the ball in the opposite direction to the turn, its almost impossible.
He does that in order to ensure the ball leaves his hands backwards. In this instance he is turning to face the assistant referee who is slightly behind play. His target is Redpath who is 7-8 metres behind him.
The only thing that matters according to World rugby is that the ball must leave his hands backwards. What happens to the ball is not relevant. World rugby have done a video on that aspect of it.
Quote:shipwrecked
De Glanville is deliberately manipulating his body by turning/twisting left to face as sideways as possible (anticlockwise), he is travelling at speed and he holds the ball out in front of him.
Now try it yourself, turn left and try to throw the ball in the opposite direction to the turn, its almost impossible.
He does that in order to ensure the ball leaves his hands backwards. In this instance he is turning to face the assistant referee who is slightly behind play. His target is Redpath who is 7-8 metres behind him.
The only thing that matters according to World rugby is that the ball must leave his hands backwards. What happens to the ball is not relevant. World rugby have done a video on that aspect of it.
Can't see how the ball ends up in front of him a moment after release if it leaves the hands backwards regardless of body twists etc. This explanation is your opinion rather than proof. Proof would be a view of the hands at the moment of release wouldn't it?
Prove it to yourself then, is he turning left? Images show that he is turning left, can you turn left and pass right?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Prove it to yourself then, is he turning left? Images show that he is turning left, can you turn left and pass right?
I'm not a professional rugby player and am not very flexible or mobile so irrelevant what I can do really. I can't see how the ball ends up in front of him a moment after release if it leaves his hands backwards, regardless of body twisting etc. The proof would be a view of how the ball leaves his hands and I don't think we have that view. My opinion is that it was forward and haven't seen any proof that it was definitely backwards, so we will have to agree to disagree until there is that proof I guess.
The facts are that none of the match officials neither referee, assistant referee or TMO together with the commentator and match pundits even mentioned it might be a forward pass.
You don't need to be flexible or professional to test it out by the way. Just revel in the fact that Tom de Glanville know his game and can execute those skills.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
You don't need to be flexible or professional to test it out by the way. Just revel in the fact that Tom de Glanville know his game and can execute those skills.
I’ll give TdG an immense amount of credit for being able to pass that accurately, that far, that flat whilst running at a speed that meant the ball was propelled by his uninterrupted momentum several metres ahead of where it started.
You are wrong on every level, it was not even marginal, it was totally forward.
Game was so disappointing once more. First time I have seen Tom Doughty and was impressed with both skill and composure. Nice job Tom. Also Max Clark and Henry both had the best game in a long time.
Would love to know what Cips was thinking as he watched it all unravel.
Game was so disappointing once more. First time I have seen Tom Doughty and was impressed with both skill and composure. Nice job Tom. Also Max Clark and Henry both had the best game in a long time.
Would love to know what Cips was thinking as he watched it all unravel.
Quote:shipwrecked
The facts are that none of the match officials neither referee, assistant referee or TMO together with the commentator and match pundits even mentioned it might be a forward pass.
You don't need to be flexible or professional to test it out by the way. Just revel in the fact that Tom de Glanville know his game and can execute those skills.
Not proof, which is what you called for regarding it being forward. I see no way that a moment after release the ball is in front of the player if the ball is released backwards from the hands, and you haven't been able to explain how that can happen. As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree unless there is proof either way.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:15:19:35:52 by Maeght.
It was given as a try so whi cares. That's the beauty of the game some decisions go your way and some don't
Quote:ollyshepQuote:hasta
Speaking of coaches attitudes, I remember this game:
[www.skysports.com]
Vesty should have had a try (which would have got us a try bp) and denied Wasps a losing bp - but prematurely celebrated and Varndell chased back and forced a knock-on. That losing bp saved Wasps from relegation (and probably kept them in existence).
After the game and a couple of pints of Gem, my friend and I bumped into Brad Davis. After exchanging pleasantries we mentioned the incident and Davis said 'I told him if he does it again I'm going to burn his <expletive deleted> house down'. I'm sure it was slightly in jest but it was just nice to see a coach demonstrate that he cares about the situation in conversation with the fans. I'm sure all the team are hurting, and I don't need to see self-flagellation all the time, but good lord it would be nice to see someone appear to care about the fact that we've had our worst ever home season and by almost any possible measure have significantly regressed this year.
And you don't think the coaches care? Really? If the coaches chucked the players under the bus then everyone would say that's wrong. The bad performances are not just to do with the coaches
No I'm sure they do and I didn't ask them to chuck the players under the bus. I'm saying that the constant talk about 'frustration' and 'small margins' is delivered pretty consistently with equanimity and it's gone way beyond that.
I get that there are doubters out there but there are two things perhaps someone can explain to me.
Firstly if the pass for the Redpath was forward why in this picture where Redpath is about to take the ball using the lines on the pitch is he level when TdG has actually stopped having given the pass. Relative velocity would put Redpath two metres (min) further forward.
Secondly, what on earth was Redpath doing hugging that wing in the first place? (See second screenshot below) Muir is tracking De Glanville at outside centre but Redpath is right out in his winger position.
The video below explains the concept of relative velocity and why I mentioned 2metres.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Firstly if the pass for the Redpath was forward why in this picture where Redpath is about to take the ball using the lines on the pitch is he level when TdG has actually stopped having given the pass. Relative velocity would put Redpath two metres (min) further forward.
Secondly, what on earth was Redpath doing hugging that wing in the first place? (See second screenshot below) Muir is tracking De Glanville at outside centre but Redpath is right out in his winger position.
The video below explains the concept of relative velocity and why I mentioned 2metres.
No mental blockage says Stuart Hooper ! - A record 6th home defeat and he still says there’s work to do as well as another load of twaddle !
Here
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:16:08:36:50 by Old Bath Tub.
Here
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:16:08:36:50 by Old Bath Tub.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
No mental blockage says Stuart Hooper ! - A record 6th home defeat and he still says there’s work to do as well as another load of twaddle !
Here
He’s probably right, it’s not a mental issue but a DOR/coaching issue.
The following is my interpretation of the RFU's video and definition of what a forward pass is...I think...
A forward pass comes down to the forward velocity of the ball at the time of the pass, relative to the passer, nothing to do with the receiver other than his distance from the passer, in that the further the passer is from the receiver, the perceived (by stationary observer) forward motion of the ball is more observable. Therefore looks "worse" the longer the pass.
So if a player passes a ball at 90 degrees (so flat) to his trajectory and he is traveling forward at say 5m/s the forward component of the pass is equal to 5m/s , it is a legal pass , although to a stationary observer it it is going forward as its still travelling forward as it leaves the passers hands.
If its forward velocity component of the ball is greater than the 5m/s , it is a forward pass. So that's the 5m/s from the passer plus x m/s from the forward motion from poor passer technique.
The problem for ref's and assistants is their view of a pass is anything from stationary to the velocity of the players (depending on if he/she is keeping up with the action), the TMO's and replays are always from a stationary view point, so any flat or near flat pass will always tend to look forward and the longer the pass the worse it will look..
I can see the "where the hands are pointing" is a way to help the ref and TMO judge a forward pass but that's not definitive either. For example a pop pass where the forward velocity of the ball is deliberately reduced by the passer to "hang in the air" so hands may still look/be forward but the ball's forward velocity is still less compared to the passers forward velocity, so actually not forward.
I don't think there will be a definitive way to judge a close to flat pass is actually forward during a game by eye, so unless there is software for TMO's which calculates the forward velocity component of the ball compared to the velocity of the passer as it leaves the hands, there's always going to be controversy regarding some passes.
Hope the above makes sense
A forward pass comes down to the forward velocity of the ball at the time of the pass, relative to the passer, nothing to do with the receiver other than his distance from the passer, in that the further the passer is from the receiver, the perceived (by stationary observer) forward motion of the ball is more observable. Therefore looks "worse" the longer the pass.
So if a player passes a ball at 90 degrees (so flat) to his trajectory and he is traveling forward at say 5m/s the forward component of the pass is equal to 5m/s , it is a legal pass , although to a stationary observer it it is going forward as its still travelling forward as it leaves the passers hands.
If its forward velocity component of the ball is greater than the 5m/s , it is a forward pass. So that's the 5m/s from the passer plus x m/s from the forward motion from poor passer technique.
The problem for ref's and assistants is their view of a pass is anything from stationary to the velocity of the players (depending on if he/she is keeping up with the action), the TMO's and replays are always from a stationary view point, so any flat or near flat pass will always tend to look forward and the longer the pass the worse it will look..
I can see the "where the hands are pointing" is a way to help the ref and TMO judge a forward pass but that's not definitive either. For example a pop pass where the forward velocity of the ball is deliberately reduced by the passer to "hang in the air" so hands may still look/be forward but the ball's forward velocity is still less compared to the passers forward velocity, so actually not forward.
I don't think there will be a definitive way to judge a close to flat pass is actually forward during a game by eye, so unless there is software for TMO's which calculates the forward velocity component of the ball compared to the velocity of the passer as it leaves the hands, there's always going to be controversy regarding some passes.
Hope the above makes sense
I can agree with most of that except “nothing to do with the receiver”.
If the receiver is in front of the passer when the pass is made it has in common sense and natural justice to be a forward pass- whatever the theory & semantics.
PG
If the receiver is in front of the passer when the pass is made it has in common sense and natural justice to be a forward pass- whatever the theory & semantics.
PG
It’s still very strange to the older rugby observer to watch a pass end up several metres ahead of the point from which it was delivered and have everyone dispute whether it’s a forward pass or not. In the origins of the game - without being aware of the science - you took account of momentum to ensure it went backwards.
Physics is the same Opti is it not true that three quarters used to lie much deeper, its just about perceptions.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Old Bath Tub
No mental blockage says Stuart Hooper ! - A record 6th home defeat and he still says there’s work to do as well as another load of twaddle !
Here
He’s probably right, it’s not a mental issue but a DOR/coaching issue.
I’ve just never got this how can it always be that it’s someone’s fault. Having spent my whole career as a troubleshooter I’ve come to the conclusion that blaming a single person or entity ( e.g. management) rarely if ever solves a people centric problem. It is very Facebook Hooper out type mentality.
I think the problems with Bath are complex and not the least helped by not having a settled team. When we were winning stuff you rarely had to look at the team announcement on the Friday you knew who would play and if there was an injury who would slot in. With the attritional state of the current game causing multiple injuries; rotation and international call ups we have rarely got anywhere close to settled so getting a team to gel and link up is a stretch. But Bristol/ Exeter / Sale / Sarries have done it I hear you say.. well Bris and Sale imported talent and had no call ups so much less disruption.Sarries bought a team including many from S Africa. Exeter had few call ups a simple game plan that was forward orientated and drilled into everyone. To be fair to the Bath management they have tried the Exeter plan and are now reluctantly looking to the Sale method and signing South Africans.
The idea of generating our own home grown talent and bringing them through with a club ethos and way of playing is more of the Exeter way and guess what it takes time to work. I think there are signs of it working but patience is required and a reminder that instant success is nobody’s god given right it took quite some years for Baxter and Lam to work their overnight miracles so just changing the management after less than two seasons is not the answer.
Quote:DisunitedQuote:Dorset Boy
In hindsight, when their 9 was carded, going for the corner was not smart at all. Ewells, Priestland and Spencer had a chat, so collective leadership failing there.
Scrum. Sale's options then would be:
Pack down with 7, and 6 backs, including a stand in scrum half
Pack down with 8, and 5 backs, and then have the dilema of whether or not to have someone at 9.
There had to be more options for us to score in those scenarios than kicking for the corner where they then match our numbers in the lineout.
It was almost as if they hadn't trained for that possible scenario
DB...could almost have read my mind..or post!
Quote:malco
Priestland had a good game,
Apart from the one time when it mattered so much. 5 metres out with Sale down by 2 players and he didn't seem to know which side of the pitch to stand, as he went to the right as Spencer got ball giving him no space to do anything other than just ship the ball, Rhys then just trucked up unconvincingly a metre or so with the ball and straight into contact a metre further so got turnovered with a penalty
For all Cipriani's risks and flaws I really can't see him doing that
Quote:gaz59Quote:malco
Priestland had a good game,
Apart from the one time when it mattered so much. 5 metres out with Sale down by 2 players and he didn't seem to know which side of the pitch to stand, as he went to the right as Spencer got ball giving him no space to do anything other than just ship the ball, Rhys then just trucked up unconvincingly a metre or so with the ball and straight into contact a metre further so got turnovered with a penalty
For all Cipriani's risks and flaws I really can't see him doing that
There was no one else around for him to align with - most of the backs were also in the maul.
Quote:P G Tips
I can agree with most of that except “nothing to do with the receiver”.
If the receiver is in front of the passer when the pass is made it has in common sense and natural justice to be a forward pass- whatever the theory & semantics.
PG
I see what you mean, but I think it really comes down to if at the time of the pass the angle the ball initially travels from the passer will be greater than 90deg and so will have a greater forward speed than the passer , the pass has to be at 90 or less to be flat or backwards, so not really determined by the receiver .
What I mean is if its open play there is no offside line so if the receiver is in front of the passer but is travelling forward at a slower velocity (or decelerating) than the passer I think it could still be a good pass in certain circumstances mathematically.. to be honest its a bit of a mine field .
Quote:hastaQuote:gaz59Quote:malco
Priestland had a good game,
Apart from the one time when it mattered so much. 5 metres out with Sale down by 2 players and he didn't seem to know which side of the pitch to stand, as he went to the right as Spencer got ball giving him no space to do anything other than just ship the ball, Rhys then just trucked up unconvincingly a metre or so with the ball and straight into contact a metre further so got turnovered with a penalty
For all Cipriani's risks and flaws I really can't see him doing that
There was no one else around for him to align with - most of the backs were also in the maul.
Perfect example of implementing a set move then having no idea what to do next, as I said elsewhere Priestland should have been in the pocket to take 3 when the line out drive failed. Going for 7, 3 a real possibility but got 0 points from that visit.
Bath need to sort this mess out, my son asked when Bristol were playing this weekend. Going to lose a whole generation of fans. Bad enough Somerset kids are turning up to training in Chiefs kit won't be long and it will be Bristol too!!!!!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:hastaQuote:gaz59Quote:malco
Priestland had a good game,
Apart from the one time when it mattered so much. 5 metres out with Sale down by 2 players and he didn't seem to know which side of the pitch to stand, as he went to the right as Spencer got ball giving him no space to do anything other than just ship the ball, Rhys then just trucked up unconvincingly a metre or so with the ball and straight into contact a metre further so got turnovered with a penalty
For all Cipriani's risks and flaws I really can't see him doing that
There was no one else around for him to align with - most of the backs were also in the maul.
Perfect example of implementing a set move then having no idea what to do next, as I said elsewhere Priestland should have been in the pocket to take 3 when the line out drive failed. Going for 7, 3 a real possibility but got 0 points from that visit.
Would agree, there seems to be minimal thought given to 'but what if that doesn't work?' and it influences a lot of our play.
But what if our lineout doesn't work?
But what if our scrum doesn't work?
But what if our pick and go doesn't work?
But what if our maul doesn't work?
The failure of the coaching team to prepare the team for these situations is the true issue.
Quote:shipwrecked
Physics is the same Opti is it not true that three quarters used to lie much deeper, its just about perceptions.
SW - I got about 15% in my mock physics O level 45 years ago, and I have not added to that knowledge since. But I think I can say with confidence that I was aware that physics itself hasn’t changed in the mean time. The laws, though - of rugby, maybe of physics too - have. TdG’s pass, in 1976, would have been called forward.
The speed, distance and flatness of the path would also have elicited similar reactions to Bobby Jones when confronted with Jack Nicklaus - “He plays a game with which I am not familiar.”
Quote:OptimistQuote:shipwrecked
Physics is the same Opti is it not true that three quarters used to lie much deeper, its just about perceptions.
SW - I got about 15% in my mock physics O level 45 years ago, and I have not added to that knowledge since. But I think I can say with confidence that I was aware that physics itself hasn’t changed in the mean time. The laws, though - of rugby, maybe of physics too - have. TdG’s pass, in 1976, would have been called forward.
The speed, distance and flatness of the path would also have elicited similar reactions to Bobby Jones when confronted with Jack Nicklaus - “He plays a game with which I am not familiar.”
Absolutely correct Opti, in fact the law still says that if the ball moves towards the oppositions dead ball line its forward. Its just that the modern interpretation and implementation of the laws by World Rugby is at variance with those laws, that's not just forward passes its several other laws as well.
PS Current sub atomic physics does mean that some laws of physics may well to be rewritten. Not the bit about forward passes though!
LSAR
That is not quite true.
Law 10
1. A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it.
I am thinking of Jerome Garces overruling NZTMO Ben Skeen in the RWC QF -"For me clear forward pass". The replay indeed showed the receiver half a stride ahead of the passer -try ruled out.
PG
That is not quite true.
Law 10
1. A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it.
I am thinking of Jerome Garces overruling NZTMO Ben Skeen in the RWC QF -"For me clear forward pass". The replay indeed showed the receiver half a stride ahead of the passer -try ruled out.
PG
Quote:TG KesmoQuote:OutsideBathQuote:Old Bath Tub
No mental blockage says Stuart Hooper ! - A record 6th home defeat and he still says there’s work to do as well as another load of twaddle !
Here
He’s probably right, it’s not a mental issue but a DOR/coaching issue.
I’ve just never got this how can it always be that it’s someone’s fault. Having spent my whole career as a troubleshooter I’ve come to the conclusion that blaming a single person or entity ( e.g. management) rarely if ever solves a people centric problem. It is very Facebook Hooper out type mentality.
I think the problems with Bath are complex and not the least helped by not having a settled team. When we were winning stuff you rarely had to look at the team announcement on the Friday you knew who would play and if there was an injury who would slot in. With the attritional state of the current game causing multiple injuries; rotation and international call ups we have rarely got anywhere close to settled so getting a team to gel and link up is a stretch. But Bristol/ Exeter / Sale / Sarries have done it I hear you say.. well Bris and Sale imported talent and had no call ups so much less disruption.Sarries bought a team including many from S Africa. Exeter had few call ups a simple game plan that was forward orientated and drilled into everyone. To be fair to the Bath management they have tried the Exeter plan and are now reluctantly looking to the Sale method and signing South Africans.
The idea of generating our own home grown talent and bringing them through with a club ethos and way of playing is more of the Exeter way and guess what it takes time to work. I think there are signs of it working but patience is required and a reminder that instant success is nobody’s god given right it took quite some years for Baxter and Lam to work their overnight miracles so just changing the management after less than two seasons is not the answer.
I think this is spot on and elements such as confidence and availability play a huge part in a teams success . As supporters we have no influence on who is appointed to lead or coach the club so to constantly complain about those in these roles to my mind is futile and akin to virtue signalling , whilst I agree we all have the right to put forward our views and express disappointment most of us have no real understanding of the realities of the jobs of those we criticise. I will always support the players if they are trying for the team, whoever is coaching them, and I think this group of players are doing this. Maybe I am old fashioned and as the game has gone professional I should be complaining, as a 'consumer', that the product is not good enough!!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:OptimistQuote:shipwrecked
Physics is the same Opti is it not true that three quarters used to lie much deeper, its just about perceptions.
SW - I got about 15% in my mock physics O level 45 years ago, and I have not added to that knowledge since. But I think I can say with confidence that I was aware that physics itself hasn’t changed in the mean time. The laws, though - of rugby, maybe of physics too - have. TdG’s pass, in 1976, would have been called forward.
The speed, distance and flatness of the path would also have elicited similar reactions to Bobby Jones when confronted with Jack Nicklaus - “He plays a game with which I am not familiar.”
Absolutely correct Opti, in fact the law still says that if the ball moves towards the oppositions dead ball line its forward. Its just that the modern interpretation and implementation of the laws by World Rugby is at variance with those laws, that's not just forward passes its several other laws as well.
PS Current sub atomic physics does mean that some laws of physics may well to be rewritten. Not the bit about forward passes though!
enough of this 'physics' nonsense. the law needs to be changed to say that unless the pass is obviously travelling backwards, it is a forward pass. this gets rid of the wretched 'flat' pass.
Quote:Yes your right on the rules, but that only normally gets called if they are not retiring/retreating to get behind the carrier or are interfering in some way, I suppose receiving a pass is interfering .P G Tips
LSAR
That is not quite true.
Law 10
1. A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball or who last played it.
I am thinking of Jerome Garces overruling NZTMO Ben Skeen in the RWC QF -"For me clear forward pass". The replay indeed showed the receiver half a stride ahead of the passer -try ruled out.
PG
On the Garces decision you mention I haven't seen it lately probably did at the time, I'm not saying you can't be offside receiving a pass, but its possible for the receiver to be in front of the passer and the pass its self is not actually forward , due to the forward speed of the passer, compared to the receiver slowing down or moving back.
So I can picture a scenario where a receiver is slowing/stopping to get back onside if he's just in front, the passer throws a long flat pass but due to the passers forward speed the pass looks forward but is not at the time of the pass the receiver is fractionally in front of the passer, so technically offside but is retiring so normally would not get pinged.
Or am i deluding myself...probably
Watching the Tigers game yesterday there was another situation where a team went down to 13 and were not punished by the other team. When this happens the defending team seem to gather themselves for a greater collective effort, but do the team with the advantage also have a collectively lower level of effort? Maybe teams practise more being without 1 or 2 men than they do working out how to take maximum advantage of being +2? Teams have to be very cool when having a 2 man advantage and work out exactly how to manage it most effectively, keeping the ball Iive for as long as possible.
That’s a good point warren. You do hear a lot of coaches talking about practising with 14, but never about how to maximise the returns from a 10-minute 1-player advantage.
Technological solution would be combined ball tracking and player tracking though chip and GPS. It would cover forward passes, offside, crooked line outs, crooked put ins all automatically and 'beep' the referee when there is an infringement.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Technological solution would be combined ball tracking and player tracking though chip and GPS. It would cover forward passes, offside, crooked line outs, crooked put ins all automatically and 'beep' the referee when there is an infringement.
Better solution would be to stop messing about with the laws and sanctions, stop trial by slow motion TV replays, treat the referees and match officials with Corinthian respect and rediscover what our sport has always been about.
On Friday night when I’d had about 4 pints and I watched the telly I thought it was forward. Just based on my eyes and my brain. I don’t want to get into a debate on physics or the laws of rugby SW. I’m just stating what I thought at the time.
I have to admit that I thought it forward but when the commentators said what a wonderful pass and I thought I heard Mullen saying the TMO had a look and okayed it! Mind you the McG try was forward and there was separation! So they got one right and one wrong, or both right or both wrong! That’s the rub of the green or not!
Have to agree in principle Malco, watched an old match from the 70's the other day, loads of refereeing decisions were probably wrong, but it was great to watch. It's an impossible game to referee and we have to decide, do we end ups with loads of cameras, four officials and lots of lengthy delays or we just accept that over a season it probably comes out even and just give the guy with the whistle the authority to make decisions on the spot and ban replays on tv which only cause further aggravation.
It may not have been perfect but at least the game flowed. Nowadays every try is looked at in minute detail, yet just as important things get overlooked. At the end of the Sale game, the Sale 8 came through the Bath driving maul and dragged the ball out of the Bath players hands, I thought it may have gone forward, ref just wanted to end the game. Technology does not improve the spectators enjoyment of the game.
It may not have been perfect but at least the game flowed. Nowadays every try is looked at in minute detail, yet just as important things get overlooked. At the end of the Sale game, the Sale 8 came through the Bath driving maul and dragged the ball out of the Bath players hands, I thought it may have gone forward, ref just wanted to end the game. Technology does not improve the spectators enjoyment of the game.
Trouble is, IRB can mandate that referees’ decisions are final and order complete respect from players, but TV coverage/pundits will continue to dissect every decision leaving referees to look stupid and players/coaches/fans seething with resentment when they are alerted to a knock-on in the lead up to a crucial try.
Isn't that the whole point of TV coverage?
Previews, Pundits, Gossip, Replays, Analysis, Diagrams, Tactics, Decisions, Controversy they are all things that are absent watching in the stands and it even brings the stands into homes. Its a trade of for the money they pays for it.
TV owns a large chunk of rugby if you want the other version its your local park or the championship.
Its rugby's pound of flesh!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Previews, Pundits, Gossip, Replays, Analysis, Diagrams, Tactics, Decisions, Controversy they are all things that are absent watching in the stands and it even brings the stands into homes. Its a trade of for the money they pays for it.
TV owns a large chunk of rugby if you want the other version its your local park or the championship.
Its rugby's pound of flesh!
I agree with the last two comments, even though I do not like it, but rugby could reduce the time wasted by stopping the frame by frame dissections we saw with the 'try' from Hammersley. Certainly check the forward pass, although in reality the camera views were not good enough to be sure which direction the ball went, but the time spent on the touchdown was crazy. Much better for a referee to see that in real time and call it a try, if his hand was momentarily separated from the ball in the process of touching down does it really matter, it was a clever try, call it and move on. Is it not the same as knocking on but collecting the ball before it touches the ground?
A further observation I would make is that last season we managed to squeeze into the to 4 against all expectations. I never felt we were playing scintillating rugby & I believe we ended up winning some of those games narrowly & with some good fortune. As a result it was said we had a winning mentality. The question is “Did we?” This year it is just the opposite but are we much different in reality? At the end of last season I felt we needed to improve our all round game, not just rely on the forwards, to become a regular top 4 team. There has been no improvement whatsoever so we haven’t. As supporters I think we will have a pretty good idea when we are where we want to be & it won’t be determined by the table necessarily. There remains a long way to go.
Quote:Bath Hammer
A further observation I would make is that last season we managed to squeeze into the to 4 against all expectations. I never felt we were playing scintillating rugby & I believe we ended up winning some of those games narrowly & with some good fortune. As a result it was said we had a winning mentality. The question is “Did we?” This year it is just the opposite but are we much different in reality? At the end of last season I felt we needed to improve our all round game, not just rely on the forwards, to become a regular top 4 team. There has been no improvement whatsoever so we haven’t. As supporters I think we will have a pretty good idea when we are where we want to be & it won’t be determined by the table necessarily. There remains a long way to go.
Last season Sarries were down, Sale had Covid and most of the other teams put out weakened and rotated sides. We may have been 4th but were definitely not a 'top 4' team.
Watched the match last night and thought that it was pretty saddening how the coaching and playing team haven't learned their lessons against playing against fewer men and also repeatedly smashing into those who are left. What was even more sad was that I knew it was coming (not just because the match had already been played as I had tried to stay away from the forum etc) and was therefore unsurprised. Used to gnash my teeth and now just sigh a lot when I watch Bath tbh.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:warrenball
time spent on the touchdown was crazy. Much better for a referee to see that in real time and call it a try, if his hand was momentarily separated from the ball in the process of touching down does it really matter
Agree WB - if the attacking side gets the ball across the line they should get the benefit of the doubt. Has it clearly and obviously been dropped or held up. If not, try. Get on with it.
Quote:OptimistQuote:warrenball
time spent on the touchdown was crazy. Much better for a referee to see that in real time and call it a try, if his hand was momentarily separated from the ball in the process of touching down does it really matter
Agree WB - if the attacking side gets the ball across the line they should get the benefit of the doubt. Has it clearly and obviously been dropped or held up. If not, try. Get on with it.
I don't agree, do it right or not at all!
Sure - 'do it right or not at all' - but getting it unequivocally right requires several minutes of forensic analysis - so if you're happy to spend that time trying to detect the position of a rugby ball under a steaming pile of bodies, fine. But, when defending on the line encompasses not only throwing yourself at the opposition, but making sure you pile in to reduce the visibility of the ball to the cameras, then it all becomes a bit of a waste of time to me.
I also agree with Opti on this one, 'doing it right' may take a very long time, I think from memory (not really to be trusted at my age) that Hammersley had run round the back before putting the ball down so he may well have been either fully or partly facing his own try line, so even if there was separation was it a knock on or a knock back before he finally grounded it? Does get very complicated if you let it.
My one caveat on it, is that giving the attacking team 'the benefit of the doubt' if they get the ball to the far side of the whitewash, is that it would very much favour pick and drive ad nauseam. I'd really like to see the statistics for how many pick & drives end in failure due to ball held up, or no conclusive evidence of grounding. If the stattos could get on to that, then one or two coaches might consider telling their forwards to think in terms of allowing the ball out into the wild occasionally.
And to rub salt into our wounds both Redpath and Du Toit have suffered serious injuries likely to impact well beyond this season and into next. Life just gets better. Hoops may well regret the statement in relation to recruitment.
A couple of points on the thread.
1. We were legitimately excellent post-covid last season (until Sarries - although we should also have beaten them). Screw Sale, we beat them away (they're heavily overrated). We rotated well and were powerful. It's revisionist to thinking otherwise.
2. It makes our drop this year worse. We had a powerful pack, a decent defence and no attack. Almost everything we did until the second half of Quins at home this season was a regression (and a really bad one at that). Subsequent to that it was improved until the absolute self-destruction of our lineout vs Montpelier and our scrum vs Bris.
3. Injuries to Du Toit and Redpath are not Hoops fault nor do they reflect on anything he said ormight say regards recruitment.
1. We were legitimately excellent post-covid last season (until Sarries - although we should also have beaten them). Screw Sale, we beat them away (they're heavily overrated). We rotated well and were powerful. It's revisionist to thinking otherwise.
2. It makes our drop this year worse. We had a powerful pack, a decent defence and no attack. Almost everything we did until the second half of Quins at home this season was a regression (and a really bad one at that). Subsequent to that it was improved until the absolute self-destruction of our lineout vs Montpelier and our scrum vs Bris.
3. Injuries to Du Toit and Redpath are not Hoops fault nor do they reflect on anything he said ormight say regards recruitment.
I think the TMO is there to stop things like this. I am still angry with it all these years later.
Me too CB! Hilariously, the Aussie commentator going, 'that's pretty hard to tell, really'.
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