Bath
REBOUND AND REGROUP. BATH v MONTPELLIER
Reid: reward?
By PG Tips
April 27 2021
Bath must regroup if they are to rebound against Montpellier in Saturday’s Challenge Cup Semi Final. Regroup because they must do without at least one of their first choice props and probably a number of leading backs, still injured. Rebound because they know they must play much better to seize their best hope of silverware for several years. Less than three hours from a trophy, they have six days to sort out their issues in set piece, discipline and defence and prepare a squad fit and ready to win.
The two clubs have met before in Europe, in the Champions Cup in 2015 when both had high hopes of doing well. Bath triumphed 30-5 and 32-12 in their matches and emerged from the “Group of Death” to contest the Quarter Final in a knockout round dominated by English and French clubs. France took the spoils in the end: Toulon beating Clermont in the Final. Both Clubs have won the Challenge Cup, Montpellier most recently, in 2016 and Bath in 2008. Bath have also lost in three other finals -in 2004, 2007 and 2014, while Montpellier won a third tier contest, the European Shield, in 2004. In that sense, Montpellier have the better average record – 2 Finals, 2 wins- to Bath’s 5 Finals, 2 wins.
Although a relative newcomer to French top flight rugby, Montpellier have personnel and pedigree greater than their current 11th place domestic status. They boast a cosmopolitan array of international talent, including enough South Africans to be dubbed “Jo’burg sur Mer” by the envious. Stand out names include a choice of Guilhelm Guirado or Bismarck du Plessis at hooker; Mohamed Haouas, Titi Lamositele and Mikheil Nariashvili the props, Paul Willemse, Nico Janse van Rensburg, Yacouba Camara and Fulgence Ouadrogo in the back five. Behind the scrum, Springboks Cobus Reinach, Johan Goosen, Handre Pollard and Jan Serfontein complement Les Bleus stars Anthony Bouthier and Arthur Vincent. It is a measure of their strength in depth that there may not be room for both of Alex Lozowski and Gabriel Ibitoye in Saturday’s squad. Capable of bruising driving play and sweeping backline moves, they present a challenge a step up from recent Bath duels with Leicester and Wasps.
Bath should have won their last domestic outing, a late red card handing Wasps a lifeline just as the Blue, Black and White were taking charge and scenting victory. Hooper and Hatley are too level headed to rely on the cliché of French teams not travelling well, but they will want to make the welcome as uncomfortable as possible. Bath paid for a lethargic start last week and only just overcame one the week before. They have at other times shown themselves to be fast starters, but unable to sustain the intensity. If they are to have any chance of winning this encounter they will need to get on top from the start, dominate territory and the forward battle and maintain the pressure and composure for the full 80 minutes.
They could be hampered in that quest by another disrupted selection. Obano will certainly be missing, possibly Stuart too, demanding a lot of the second and third choice sets of props. If Will Muir fails his HIA there will be a big question mark over left wing as there is ominous silence over Ruaridh McConnochie’s recovery from shoulder injury. Elsewhere, Josh Matavesi may be fit to play, but it is probably a week too soon for Rhys Priestland and Tom de Glanville. In other areas selection challenges are positive- not least the back row where Miles Reid deserves a reward for his heroics last week. Surely Zach Mercer must start against his future destination and Taulupe Faletau’s big game spirit will be needed after his rest week. That suggests a bench slot for Sam Underhill. At lock Elliott Stooke brought renewed vim and vigour to broken play, his offload to Miles Reid for Ben Spencer’s try a highlight of Bath’s attack. He could start to ease the burden on one of McNally and Ewels, both showing signs of fatigue recently.
Bath need to rattle their visitors, strike early and keep up the pressure. That will require both the fire of ambition and the ice of cool headed decision making and above all accuracy, both in attack and defence. This competition is their only realistic chance of glory this season. They must find a way to seize that chance and, like their famed predecessors, stubbornly refuse to let it slip.
Possible Bath Team:
Bath: Schoeman, Dunn, Thomas, Stooke, Ewels (Capt.), Faletau, Reid, Mercer. Spencer, Bailey.Gray, Redpath, Joseph, Cokanasiga. Watson.
Replacements: Bhatti, Walker, Judge, McNally, Underhill. Chudley, Matavesi, Rokodoguni.
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StumbleuponREBOUND AND REGROUP. BATH v MONTPELLIER. TEAM UP!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 27/04/2021 08:49
27/04/2021 08:49
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:17:07:38 by P G Tips.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:17:07:38 by P G Tips.
Good review as ever PGT.
I am not concerned about the wing position as all - Gabe HW is more than capable to filling that position IMO, or of course Roko.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I am not concerned about the wing position as all - Gabe HW is more than capable to filling that position IMO, or of course Roko.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Roko looked pretty lively on Friday evening against Quins. I can't quite see him returning to the electric pre-injury form - but he's always going to make some metres, catch the high ball. I'd really rather see him there than big Joe right now. Probably GHW too, although we don't have a lot of evidence to go on.
Can't quite see a way of us winning this, unless this Cup is second fiddle to Top 14 for Montpellier.
Can't quite see a way of us winning this, unless this Cup is second fiddle to Top 14 for Montpellier.
PG's write up highlights how good they are in the backs with the quality of players like Cobus Reinach, Johan Goosen, Handre Pollard, Jan Serfontein, Anthony Bouthier, Arthur Vincent. we are really up against it. I'm astounded that Alex Lozowski and Gabriel Ibitoye don't even make the squad.
But 11th in the table seems to indicate underperformance. I just wonder if we had an advantage up front with Obano and Stuart that no longer exists.
On paper Opti may well be correct but it's a cup game so who knows?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
But 11th in the table seems to indicate underperformance. I just wonder if we had an advantage up front with Obano and Stuart that no longer exists.
On paper Opti may well be correct but it's a cup game so who knows?
Hasn't Lozowski been a bit of a disaster?
But yeah, that's one heck of a side we're up against and the kind of back line to exploit our weakensses.
We'll definitely miss Beno (although Schoeman did some good things at the weekend) and FH still a bit of a problem.
But yeah, that's one heck of a side we're up against and the kind of back line to exploit our weakensses.
We'll definitely miss Beno (although Schoeman did some good things at the weekend) and FH still a bit of a problem.
Great write up PG.
Stuart is key. I think we'd have beaten Wasps if he'd been fit. Highlights the step down between our first choice and the rest and Stuart is international class in the tight and the loose and so important for our game. If he's fit, we'll be on top. If he's not, we might struggle, especially without Obano.
I'd pick Roko. A big game like this calls for experienced heads, especially with Pollard a world class kicker (but is Pollard fit? Think he's got a long-term knee injury). Or, ideally, TdG is fit, and he was warming up with the team on Sunday, so Watson to the wing.
I'd go:
Schoemann, Dunn, Stuart (please), McNally, Ewels, Faletau, Reid, Mercer.
Spencer, Priestland (please, if not, Bailey), JCok, Redpath, JJ, Watson, TdG
Bhatti, Walker, Thomas, Stooke, Underhill, Chudley, Matevasi, Roko.
It also looks like Montpellier hasn't played in a couple of weeks since their semi on April 10th. Is that covid related and they've had some cancelled matches? Hopefully, we can catch them a little cold.
Stuart is key. I think we'd have beaten Wasps if he'd been fit. Highlights the step down between our first choice and the rest and Stuart is international class in the tight and the loose and so important for our game. If he's fit, we'll be on top. If he's not, we might struggle, especially without Obano.
I'd pick Roko. A big game like this calls for experienced heads, especially with Pollard a world class kicker (but is Pollard fit? Think he's got a long-term knee injury). Or, ideally, TdG is fit, and he was warming up with the team on Sunday, so Watson to the wing.
I'd go:
Schoemann, Dunn, Stuart (please), McNally, Ewels, Faletau, Reid, Mercer.
Spencer, Priestland (please, if not, Bailey), JCok, Redpath, JJ, Watson, TdG
Bhatti, Walker, Thomas, Stooke, Underhill, Chudley, Matevasi, Roko.
It also looks like Montpellier hasn't played in a couple of weeks since their semi on April 10th. Is that covid related and they've had some cancelled matches? Hopefully, we can catch them a little cold.
Not sure Rhys or TdG will be fit in time dr bath- unless Hoops last briefing was a deception plan.
If all available I agree your team looks good.
It is a cup match & Montpellier have been underperforming, but the "collection of talented individuals" label could apply to them and work to their advantage.
Bath's best hope is to play as a team, with a clear, simple plan and ruthless execution.
PG
If all available I agree your team looks good.
It is a cup match & Montpellier have been underperforming, but the "collection of talented individuals" label could apply to them and work to their advantage.
Bath's best hope is to play as a team, with a clear, simple plan and ruthless execution.
PG
I can’t see Underhill not starting. Reid might be creating headlines but Underhill is still playing very well. I like to sit and watch players and not the game at times and the work rate he is putting in and unseen stuff is still immense.
"Bath's best hope is to play as a team, with a clear, simple plan and ruthless execution."
beyond us, i'm afraid. tom dunn's post wasps spiel gave his explanation for the loss on saturday- as too many players unable to perform accurately under pressure.
it's been the bane of bath for too many seasons. and yet the DoR sees no need to employ a seasoned skills coach.
beyond us, i'm afraid. tom dunn's post wasps spiel gave his explanation for the loss on saturday- as too many players unable to perform accurately under pressure.
it's been the bane of bath for too many seasons. and yet the DoR sees no need to employ a seasoned skills coach.
Flats was commentating on the Montpellier v Benneton game in the last round, said we definitely wanted to draw Montpellier over Tigers or Ulster. Read into that what you like, but my impression is he didn't rate them. But then a side of individuals, as pointed out above, they could easily turn up on the day
Quote:Awp
I can’t see Underhill not starting. Reid might be creating headlines but Underhill is still playing very well. I like to sit and watch players and not the game at times and the work rate he is putting in and unseen stuff is still immense.
That's kind of what i've been hoping to hear. I'm the opposite - I just follow the ball, and so the 'unseen' stuff very much passes me by, and I was left a bit whelmed (not under-, but certainly not over-) by SU against Wasps. However, Sam was wearing 7, which tends to be a bit more visible than 6, but it was Read who did pretty much all of the eye-catching stuff.
Quote:OptimistQuote:Awp
I can’t see Underhill not starting. Reid might be creating headlines but Underhill is still playing very well. I like to sit and watch players and not the game at times and the work rate he is putting in and unseen stuff is still immense.
That's kind of what i've been hoping to hear. I'm the opposite - I just follow the ball, and so the 'unseen' stuff very much passes me by, and I was left a bit whelmed (not under-, but certainly not over-) by SU against Wasps. However, Sam was wearing 7, which tends to be a bit more visible than 6, but it was Read who did pretty much all of the eye-catching stuff.
The same as the week before, Mercer I believe got man of the match but Sam was immense and ran himself into the ground. You need to have the players doing the hard graft and unseen work to enable the likes of Mercer to look even better. We are very lucky to have such good replacements that can come on and up the intensity.
Quote:AwpQuote:OptimistQuote:Awp
I can’t see Underhill not starting. Reid might be creating headlines but Underhill is still playing very well. I like to sit and watch players and not the game at times and the work rate he is putting in and unseen stuff is still immense.
That's kind of what i've been hoping to hear. I'm the opposite - I just follow the ball, and so the 'unseen' stuff very much passes me by, and I was left a bit whelmed (not under-, but certainly not over-) by SU against Wasps. However, Sam was wearing 7, which tends to be a bit more visible than 6, but it was Read who did pretty much all of the eye-catching stuff.
The same as the week before, Mercer I believe got man of the match but Sam was immense and ran himself into the ground. You need to have the players doing the hard graft and unseen work to enable the likes of Mercer to look even better. We are very lucky to have such good replacements that can come on and up the intensity.
I agree AWP but the problem we have, albeit a nice problem, with Reid is he does the dirty stuff as well!
Play Taulupe in the second row? I'm not seeing much from Ewels currently to convince me that we wouldn't be net stronger by crow-barring all of Faletau, Reid, Underhill and Mercer into the team.
Quote:Optimist
Play Taulupe in the second row? I'm not seeing much from Ewels currently to convince me that we wouldn't be net stronger by crow-barring all of Faletau, Reid, Underhill and Mercer into the team.
Lineouts?
Quote:Optimist
Play Taulupe in the second row? I'm not seeing much from Ewels currently to convince me that we wouldn't be net stronger by crow-barring all of Faletau, Reid, Underhill and Mercer into the team.
I think that this would clip Taulupe's wings - the joy of his play is his mobility and I wouldn't want that hindered by being in the engine room rather than a loose forward. I think that Stooke would be a better 2nd row than Taulupe. I have no problem with all 4 of them being in the 23 and the one on the bench coming on when needed.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:Optimist
Play Taulupe in the second row? I'm not seeing much from Ewels currently to convince me that we wouldn't be net stronger by crow-barring all of Faletau, Reid, Underhill and Mercer into the team.
Lineouts?
We have muir for that now....tho didn't go as well on Sunday ha ha ha
Quote:dcsh
Muir catch and delivered the ball fine, it was Ewels(?) that dropped it.
Not sure, from memory was rather fired at the recipient but I turned away from the TV in a mood so didn't pick up on the detail.
Nice to see us using some innovation in that respect though I think
Hoops said on commentary that the idea of using Muir as the catcher was to allow a shift drive from the lineout using our biggest forwards immediately.
Sound plan, poor execution.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Sound plan, poor execution.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
It’s said that they are a team of talented individuals who have failed to perform. That has an uncanny resemblance to another team I know 
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:28:00:04:42 by Bath Hammer.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:28:00:04:42 by Bath Hammer.
When you look at that Montpellier squad it certainly opens your eyes - our front row and pack better be on top form or it will be a very long day at the office. I would go as far as to say that is one if not the most powerful pack squads in club rugby.
Their backline is quality but their forwards for me caught the eye or even made my eyes water.
I just pray we bring our A game and they continue to struggle to find any form - the anticipated loss of Beno will seriously deplete us in an area we cannot afford to be depleted in.
Well we always appear to save our best performances when our backs are against the wall...So it continues.
Their backline is quality but their forwards for me caught the eye or even made my eyes water.
I just pray we bring our A game and they continue to struggle to find any form - the anticipated loss of Beno will seriously deplete us in an area we cannot afford to be depleted in.
Well we always appear to save our best performances when our backs are against the wall...So it continues.
our best second row is mcnally and stooke. by a country mile. mcnally is a better captain than ewels. the question then is why ewels is continually selected in preference.
Quote:bardofavon
our best second row is mcnally and stooke. by a country mile. mcnally is a better captain than ewels. the question then is why ewels is continually selected in preference.
Have you not considered the possibility that although this is your opinion, and entirely valid as such, highly qualified and experienced coaches at club and international level see it differently and that you might simply be wrong?
Quote:malcoQuote:bardofavon
our best second row is mcnally and stooke. by a country mile. mcnally is a better captain than ewels. the question then is why ewels is continually selected in preference.
Have you not considered the possibility that although this is your opinion, and entirely valid as such, highly qualified and experienced coaches at club and international level see it differently and that you might simply be wrong?
Yes, great point Malco. Mods - may be best to shut the site down now?
Quote:bardofavon
our best second row is mcnally and stooke. by a country mile. mcnally is a better captain than ewels. the question then is why ewels is continually selected in preference.
Coaches have repeatedly referred to his lineout abilities, leading and performing.
Is McNally really a better captain than Ewels? Not sure how you would really be able to judge unless you are in the changing room. Ewels has been age grade (u20s) national captain etc. so he must have that in the genes. On pitch performance I would say McNally has been better at more things this season
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Obano out for long period as expected - significantly reduces our options at LH - Schoeman and Bhatti are going to be key - the only positive is the drier weather and pitches which allow technique and studs to have more of a factor - channel 1 and a quick snap required me thinks on Saturday.
I do not personally understand the continual questioning of Charlie Ewels as a Second Row and as a Captain. He is highly rated and does a lot of work around the pitch which goes un-noticed. It is noticeable that our set piece appears a lot stronger with Charlie in the boiler room as well as our lineout, he consistently does his job under the radar - would be interesting given the modern game what people would think of Martin Johnson?? Think about it he did none of the fancy ball carrying or offloading - great scrummager, good front jumper and put his weight about which nowadays will guarantee you at least 2 - 3 red cards a season. Yet we all talk rightly so about the man being a legend.
I am sure if Charlie is given backing and support we will see another Bath legendary captain just remember before slamming him please - his age 25 he is still a kid in terms of 2nd row and look at what he has achieved - for me he is No 1 lock - personal choice.
I do not personally understand the continual questioning of Charlie Ewels as a Second Row and as a Captain. He is highly rated and does a lot of work around the pitch which goes un-noticed. It is noticeable that our set piece appears a lot stronger with Charlie in the boiler room as well as our lineout, he consistently does his job under the radar - would be interesting given the modern game what people would think of Martin Johnson?? Think about it he did none of the fancy ball carrying or offloading - great scrummager, good front jumper and put his weight about which nowadays will guarantee you at least 2 - 3 red cards a season. Yet we all talk rightly so about the man being a legend.
I am sure if Charlie is given backing and support we will see another Bath legendary captain just remember before slamming him please - his age 25 he is still a kid in terms of 2nd row and look at what he has achieved - for me he is No 1 lock - personal choice.
That's very true Ali, but he could do with a bit of training on catching the ball, hadn't noticed it before but the more you look the more you see.
Stooke and McNally are more aggressive but as you say there is more to it than that.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Stooke and McNally are more aggressive but as you say there is more to it than that.
Whilst I have serious reservations sometimes about the coaching and selection from 6-15 I do have some trust that hats/hoops/lilley/charteris know their onions about front 5 play.
If we aren't convinced by ewels but them and the England set up are I am prepared to accept I am probably missing something.
If we aren't convinced by ewels but them and the England set up are I am prepared to accept I am probably missing something.
Exactly.
I guess in that spirit we should also acknowledge that it is quite possible that certain regular posters on this forum are able to make far more qualified judgements with their infinitely superior knowledge from the sanctity of their DFS chaise longues than Hats/Hoops/Lilley?Charteris/Eddie are from pitch side at training five times a week...
I guess in that spirit we should also acknowledge that it is quite possible that certain regular posters on this forum are able to make far more qualified judgements with their infinitely superior knowledge from the sanctity of their DFS chaise longues than Hats/Hoops/Lilley?Charteris/Eddie are from pitch side at training five times a week...
Quote:charlieboa
Whilst I have serious reservations sometimes about the coaching and selection from 6-15 I do have some trust that hats/hoops/lilley/charteris know their onions about front 5 play.
If we aren't convinced by ewels but them and the England set up are I am prepared to accept I am probably missing something.
Honestly I’m more concerned about fly half for Saturday than the second row selection. It could be a great experience for Bailey if all goes right, but I suspect they will
be trying everything to get Rhys or Josh available for at least a bench spot. Possibly even worth taking a risk on a 50/50 fitness call for either of them given the potential for silverware, rather than waiting for the Prem games when Danny could be in the mix too.
be trying everything to get Rhys or Josh available for at least a bench spot. Possibly even worth taking a risk on a 50/50 fitness call for either of them given the potential for silverware, rather than waiting for the Prem games when Danny could be in the mix too.
Quote:Ali1969
I do not personally understand the continual questioning of Charlie Ewels as a Second Row and as a Captain. He is highly rated and does a lot of work around the pitch which goes un-noticed. It is noticeable that our set piece appears a lot stronger with Charlie in the boiler room as well as our lineout, he consistently does his job under the radar - would be interesting given the modern game what people would think of Martin Johnson?? Think about it he did none of the fancy ball carrying or offloading - great scrummager, good front jumper and put his weight about which nowadays will guarantee you at least 2 - 3 red cards a season. Yet we all talk rightly so about the man being a legend.
I am sure if Charlie is given backing and support we will see another Bath legendary captain just remember before slamming him please - his age 25 he is still a kid in terms of 2nd row and look at what he has achieved - for me he is No 1 lock - personal choice.
Exactly.... agree totally
I'm in Opti's and bardofavon's camp on this one.
I think our season started to turn itself around under McNally's stewardship, during Ewels' 6N hiatus. McNally has been head and shoulders the more effective performer, his lineout is solid, good maul disrupter, better ball carrier than Ewels and have often seen him directing huddles during breaks in play even when Ewels has been playing. Not convinced Ewels influences either game strategy or extols followership via high-level performance.
Respect that Hoops has pinned his colours to Ewels and don't expect change, but i have yet to see any tangible evidence of the much vaunted Ewels' leadership. None of us are party to whether he prowls the changing room with some Martin Johnson-esque aura, but on the pitch.... Nah!
McNally and Stooke for me.... Spencer third.
I wouldn't be too quick to put blind faith in our senior leadership's judgement either... in any walk of life.
I think our season started to turn itself around under McNally's stewardship, during Ewels' 6N hiatus. McNally has been head and shoulders the more effective performer, his lineout is solid, good maul disrupter, better ball carrier than Ewels and have often seen him directing huddles during breaks in play even when Ewels has been playing. Not convinced Ewels influences either game strategy or extols followership via high-level performance.
Respect that Hoops has pinned his colours to Ewels and don't expect change, but i have yet to see any tangible evidence of the much vaunted Ewels' leadership. None of us are party to whether he prowls the changing room with some Martin Johnson-esque aura, but on the pitch.... Nah!
McNally and Stooke for me.... Spencer third.
I wouldn't be too quick to put blind faith in our senior leadership's judgement either... in any walk of life.
How about Eddie?
[www.rugbyworld.com]
RW: Who is the most improved England player since the World Cup in Japan last year?
EJ: .....In the forwards, Tom Curry and Charlie Ewels have massive potential.
RW: Who are the best young players in the Premiership?
EJ: There’s a few. Ollie Thorley is coming through, Jacob Umaga, Fraser Dingwall, George Furbank, Jack Willis, Ben Curry, Charlie Ewels I’ve mentioned...
Ewels may not have had his best year (IMO) but he is very clearly regarded as a very good player and leader by those who work with him / coach him at club and International level.
Whilst respecting your opinion, to say that Will Spencer is third at the moment when he has played about 2 matches is just a bit ridiculous AFAIC.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[www.rugbyworld.com]
RW: Who is the most improved England player since the World Cup in Japan last year?
EJ: .....In the forwards, Tom Curry and Charlie Ewels have massive potential.
RW: Who are the best young players in the Premiership?
EJ: There’s a few. Ollie Thorley is coming through, Jacob Umaga, Fraser Dingwall, George Furbank, Jack Willis, Ben Curry, Charlie Ewels I’ve mentioned...
Ewels may not have had his best year (IMO) but he is very clearly regarded as a very good player and leader by those who work with him / coach him at club and International level.
Whilst respecting your opinion, to say that Will Spencer is third at the moment when he has played about 2 matches is just a bit ridiculous AFAIC.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Chron stating Stuart could be available- touch & go, Will Muir the same.
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Faletau OK- merely rested last week, Watson should be OK, TdG back in training.
Rhys back running- but no suggestion whether ready for Saturday or not.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:29:10:47:22 by P G Tips.
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Faletau OK- merely rested last week, Watson should be OK, TdG back in training.
Rhys back running- but no suggestion whether ready for Saturday or not.
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:04:29:10:47:22 by P G Tips.
So sounds like TdG to fullback and Watson to the wing, given Muir likely out. Wonder how McCon is? No word so presume his problem (was it his hip?) isn't healing quick.
Rhys on the bench? It'd be nice but sounds like we'll be going into this one with Bailey at 10. A big challenge for him but one he looks like meeting. He just needs to bring together the best parts from the last month or so into one performance. Wouldn't it be great to see him with a line break or a bit of magic? His highlights reel (at schoolboy level) makes him look like a running 10 so I'd love to see him attacking the line now he has a little more confidence.
Either way, Stuart back will help, and knockout rugby is always exciting. Just a shame we can't all be at The Rec on a Saturday night.
Rhys on the bench? It'd be nice but sounds like we'll be going into this one with Bailey at 10. A big challenge for him but one he looks like meeting. He just needs to bring together the best parts from the last month or so into one performance. Wouldn't it be great to see him with a line break or a bit of magic? His highlights reel (at schoolboy level) makes him look like a running 10 so I'd love to see him attacking the line now he has a little more confidence.
Either way, Stuart back will help, and knockout rugby is always exciting. Just a shame we can't all be at The Rec on a Saturday night.
interesting interview with AW on the bath web site. i especially liked the bit where he said he couldn't imagine playing for another prem club.
Quote:bardofavon
interesting interview with AW on the bath web site. i especially liked the bit where he said he couldn't imagine playing for another prem club.
I can't either - he would be too expensive under the £5m cap and can't be a marquee. France on the other hand...
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53
How about Eddie?
RW: Who is the most improved England player since the World Cup in Japan last year?
EJ: .....In the forwards, Tom Curry and Charlie Ewels have massive potential.
RW: Who are the best young players in the Premiership?
EJ: There’s a few. Ollie Thorley is coming through, Jacob Umaga, Fraser Dingwall, George Furbank, Jack Willis, Ben Curry, Charlie Ewels I’ve mentioned...
Ewels may not have had his best year (IMO) but he is very clearly regarded as a very good player and leader by those who work with him / coach him at club and International level
That's a mixed bag of evidence to support Ewels there BW!
Eddie used Ollie Thorley as a lineout jumper in training and then sent him home and forgot he existed whilst finding room in his squad for Odogwu. Umaga is obviously on the radar but Dinwall and Ben Curry haven't really got near; picking Furbank to make his debut away to France on a rainy night at fullback was one of the stupidest selections an England coach has ever made. He did his best to avoid having to pick Jack Willis for as long as he possibly could.
However - i've got nothing against Ewels - and agree that it says a lot that he's highly regarded by people who know a lot about that position. It does feel like he'll drop the ball at least once a game though, and that sort of thing can overshadow a whole load of unseen work when you're only watching the game once.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:bardofavon
interesting interview with AW on the bath web site. i especially liked the bit where he said he couldn't imagine playing for another prem club.
I can't either - he would be too expensive under the £5m cap and can't be a marquee. France on the other hand...
Advantage of him being a clear England starter, he won't move to France.
Yes, staying with Bath would seem to be the only way that all of the various boxes could be ticked (salary cap, England etc.) under the current circumstances unless someone was well below the cap and really wanted him - can't imagine there are too many with cap to spare under the lowered bar.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Drbath, Ruari left the pitch with his arm in a sling so I doubt that it is his hip. It looked more like an AC joint problem to me. He came down on extended arm elbow so something shoulder related is likely.
May have imagined it but think hoops said he didn't tend to speak too much re short term (less than 1m) injuries which may give some hope re rmc. Saying that, the strategy around communicating injuries seems a bit all over the place this season and he didn't look in a great way....
Quote:Mike the Taxi
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/other-sport/all-care-winning-trophies-says-5349851 - AW 'All I want to do is win trophies'
awkward.
Quote:P G TipsQuote:tigerburnie
Good luck you lot at the weekend
Thanks tb
PG
Really hope Tigers win tonight. An all English final would be such a great game especially with the Bath/Tigers rivalry and the absence of English clubs in the Big Cup
Team Up. 6:2 bench split.
Bath Rugby side to face Montpellier
15. Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Taulupe Faletau, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements
16. Jack Walker, 17. Jamie Bhatti, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Elliott Stooke, 20. Josh Bayliss, 21. Miles Reid, 22. Will Chudley, 23. Max Clark
Bath Rugby side to face Montpellier
15. Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Taulupe Faletau, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements
16. Jack Walker, 17. Jamie Bhatti, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Elliott Stooke, 20. Josh Bayliss, 21. Miles Reid, 22. Will Chudley, 23. Max Clark
Good that both Stuart & Muir have been passed fit- we will need them.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
And the Montpellier 23:
Montpellier:
15. Anthony Bouthier, 14. Julien Tisseron,13. Johan Goosen,12. Arthur Vincent,
11. Vincent Rattez,
10. Alex Lozowski,9. Benoit Paillaugue,
1. Enzo Forletta ,2. Guilhem Guirado (c), 3. Mohamed Haouas,
4. Florian Verhaeghe,5. Paul Willemse,
6. Nico Janse van Rensburg,7. Yacouba Camara,8. Alexandre Becognee.
Replacements:
16. Bismarck Du Plessis, 17. Grégory Fichten, 18. Titi Lamositele,19. Tyler Duguid,20. Fulgence Ouedraogo,
21. Cobus Reinach, 22. Handré Pollard, 23. Vincent Martin,
Full of internationals- & a very daunting bench!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Montpellier:
15. Anthony Bouthier, 14. Julien Tisseron,13. Johan Goosen,12. Arthur Vincent,
11. Vincent Rattez,
10. Alex Lozowski,9. Benoit Paillaugue,
1. Enzo Forletta ,2. Guilhem Guirado (c), 3. Mohamed Haouas,
4. Florian Verhaeghe,5. Paul Willemse,
6. Nico Janse van Rensburg,7. Yacouba Camara,8. Alexandre Becognee.
Replacements:
16. Bismarck Du Plessis, 17. Grégory Fichten, 18. Titi Lamositele,19. Tyler Duguid,20. Fulgence Ouedraogo,
21. Cobus Reinach, 22. Handré Pollard, 23. Vincent Martin,
Full of internationals- & a very daunting bench!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Yes, great news re Stuart and Muir. On paper, that's a very strong team, with a world class back row and with some more back row punch and pace to come off the bench. Hope to see big games from Redpath and Watson in the backs.
But they look very experienced and, er, large. One concern has to be that if it's tight with 20 to go, they'll bring Reinach and Pollard off the bench whereas we'll, no doubt, run Spencer into the ground and hope a 19-year-old can manage the closing stages of a semi-final up against a WC winning 10.
Either way, exciting prospect this one. Let's give it a good rip and, if we go down, go down swinging.
But they look very experienced and, er, large. One concern has to be that if it's tight with 20 to go, they'll bring Reinach and Pollard off the bench whereas we'll, no doubt, run Spencer into the ground and hope a 19-year-old can manage the closing stages of a semi-final up against a WC winning 10.
Either way, exciting prospect this one. Let's give it a good rip and, if we go down, go down swinging.
Unfortunately I think this game will hinge entirely on how the ref calls the breakdown and scrums. If it’s at all laissez faire we are stuffed.
Bayliss, Reid, Stooke to come on is absolute quality. We really, really, cannot afford an injury in the backs though. Must admit i'm pretty excited to watch this game. GP games can get a bit samey, but this is something different, and a Cup final, and potential trophy is monumentally different to scraping 6th place and bowing out in the s-f ... could be a sliding doors moment for the Club.
Alex Lozowski at 10 for Montpellier, interesting, delighted Muir is fit. If Anthony Watson wants trophies then now is the time to show a bit off magic!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Wow that is probably one of the most powerful and heavy packs in the club game - We know a few of their players have short fuses such as Haouas and Bismarck off the bench - maybe a route into them - niggle and get under their skin similar to how L Irish got to us in the Prem game.
We desperately need to run that pack around and not allow them to settle and at least secure our own ball at Scrum & Lineout.
Just looking at their squad you ask how on earth has that quality in a squad struggled so badly. I know many will draw comparisons with us but our problems are well documented in relation to a ball playing 10, basic skills and lack of depth in our squad - Montpellier can have no such excuses any team that can put out a bench like theirs let alone their starting 15 should be challenging on all stages.
If many of us were calling for Hoopers head - then Saint Andre must be a dead man walking - especially if they don't win this cup.
Come on BBW - backs against the wall just how we like it - it is such a shame we cannot be there to cheer the team home.
We desperately need to run that pack around and not allow them to settle and at least secure our own ball at Scrum & Lineout.
Just looking at their squad you ask how on earth has that quality in a squad struggled so badly. I know many will draw comparisons with us but our problems are well documented in relation to a ball playing 10, basic skills and lack of depth in our squad - Montpellier can have no such excuses any team that can put out a bench like theirs let alone their starting 15 should be challenging on all stages.
If many of us were calling for Hoopers head - then Saint Andre must be a dead man walking - especially if they don't win this cup.
Come on BBW - backs against the wall just how we like it - it is such a shame we cannot be there to cheer the team home.
Quote:ballsout
Huge game, season hinges on this match.
Agree. If we win this comp, finish mid table and have blooded lots of good young players I think the season has been a success.
if i was them i would launch heavy traffic down our 10-12 channel. it's certainly going to be a big night for bailey and redpath.
interesting to hear dempsey in the match prog on the web site. i think he spoke more in that interview than for the whole of the 3 years he's been here. pity we haven't seen more of him, on and off the field.
interesting to hear dempsey in the match prog on the web site. i think he spoke more in that interview than for the whole of the 3 years he's been here. pity we haven't seen more of him, on and off the field.
Bailey doesn’t shirk defence, nor does Redpath. And with such a mobile back row I could see us getting turnovers if they go that route.
Looks like a good starting XV - also it feels definitively like the squad as a whole has got a lot younger over the past few seasons, from my back of the fag packet maths the average age of our XV is under 26, and our oldest players are Faletau and McNally at a very long in the tooth 30 years old.
Good luck tomorrow. Two great teams on paper if not always on the field. No idea who will win but it would be great to see an English team in the final.
Leicester look like doing their bit. Some serious intensity from them after half time - Genge, Youngs and Ford playing like they know Gatland is watching.
Properly going at each other these two. Can someone tell me why George Ford isn’t nailed on Lions 10?
I assumed Tigers would make the "easier" final, so was hoping they'd beat Ulster, but that second half was hugely impressive from them.
The pass from Ford for the last Tigers try was truly glorious. The sort of pass that if Russell or Cipriani or Barrett or Carter made would be shown for years, but was barely remarked on. And then he slotted the conversion from out wide to end the contest.
I genuinely believe Ford is the best 10 of the last decade. His reading of the game, his skillset, his attitude are just another level. He might end up being the best B&I player to never be Lion.
I genuinely believe Ford is the best 10 of the last decade. His reading of the game, his skillset, his attitude are just another level. He might end up being the best B&I player to never be Lion.
That was a VERY good game of rugby indeed and outstanding by the the Tigs to turn it around. Let's hope it's us playing them on the final.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:hasta
The pass from Ford for the last Tigers try was truly glorious. The sort of pass that if Russell or Cipriani or Barrett or Carter made would be shown for years, but was barely remarked on. And then he slotted the conversion from out wide to end the contest.
I genuinely believe Ford is the best 10 of the last decade. His reading of the game, his skillset, his attitude are just another level. He might end up being the best B&I player to never be Lion.
Ford is probably the best ball in hand , attacking 10 I have ever seen. His ability to have time whilst on the gainline and manipulate defences is crazy.
Watching him with eastmond and JJ around 2015 was a real treat.
Hats off to Borthwick. Those half time changes looked risky but certainly paid off. Tigers were back to the Tigers of old though can't help thinking that Cooney's injury was a contributory factor
Just need the BBW lads to do the business now
Just need the BBW lads to do the business now
Quote:Optimist
Properly going at each other these two. Can someone tell me why George Ford isn’t nailed on Lions 10?
Watch him play against SA, Ireland a few years back or any team where they really aggressively target him and you'll know the answer to that.
Great performance from Tigers however I am still at a loss given some of the recent red cards how Nadolo was not Sent off.
We have recently seen many reds issued for accidental head contact how is that different his swinging arm would have knocked the ball on anyway and proportionately it was a reckless act. It also left Ulster seriously disadvantaged.. Wiese was.also an extremely lucky lad yet again. He seems to have a real issue with his temper, something teams wi latch onto quickly.
I am sure Borthers will be having a word because however devastating he is, he clearly has not learnt from his previous red card and is walking a very thin line.
We have recently seen many reds issued for accidental head contact how is that different his swinging arm would have knocked the ball on anyway and proportionately it was a reckless act. It also left Ulster seriously disadvantaged.. Wiese was.also an extremely lucky lad yet again. He seems to have a real issue with his temper, something teams wi latch onto quickly.
I am sure Borthers will be having a word because however devastating he is, he clearly has not learnt from his previous red card and is walking a very thin line.
Can it be a swinging arm when it's beside the body, surely it was reckless of Clooney to be diving into a players legs what if Nadolo hadn't jumped over him and got taken out?
Obviously I'm biased but I don't see the swinging arm in it, wouldn't it be more like trailing arm or something
Obviously I'm biased but I don't see the swinging arm in it, wouldn't it be more like trailing arm or something
Inclined to agree when you get that sort of biological mass moving at high speed even a trailing finger could inflict serious injury!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:OrientalKruisQuote:Optimist
Properly going at each other these two. Can someone tell me why George Ford isn’t nailed on Lions 10?
Watch him play against SA, Ireland a few years back or any team where they really aggressively target him and you'll know the answer to that.
2 games, ‘a few years back’. Not the greatest body of everything fence in a 70+ cap career.
Funny how it goes - Toulouse v Bordeaux currently feels like a massive step down from Ulster v Tigers
Good 2 minutes........the other 20 ?
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Watson looks like a nailed-on Lions starter. Game still there to be won. Good luck.
Line out not so good and kicking too long on re-starts and too many box kicks, maybe plan B for the second half if there is one !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
An awful lot to sort out at half time. Started really well, but everything from then on has been poor. Most worrying is probably the lineout.
Not sure Montpellier look that good though, and it is only 6 points
Not sure Montpellier look that good though, and it is only 6 points
Total inability to look after the ball.
What. A. Surprise.
Same old story for years. Never gets fixed.
What. A. Surprise.
Same old story for years. Never gets fixed.
Everyone knows to play fast and loose against us - we struggle to reform in defence. But they're not all that. Cut out the sloppy penalties, sort out the line out and get in to their 22. If we can get some chances from 5m out we can win.
Would like to see the full build up to Montpellier try again.
Looked to me like the two chasers were offside at the kick.
We need to sort out the lineout and compete with more in the ruck.
PG
Looked to me like the two chasers were offside at the kick.
We need to sort out the lineout and compete with more in the ruck.
PG
When did we last lose 6 lineouts in a half?
Too many mistakes and being killed by the whistle.
Still it's only 6 points.
Too many mistakes and being killed by the whistle.
Still it's only 6 points.
Quote:P G Tips
Would like to see the full build up to Montpellier try again.
Looked to me like the two chasers were offside at the kick.
We need to sort out the lineout and compete with more in the ruck.
PG
To me it looks like Montpellier have clearly had men in front of the kicker on most occassions.
Quote:P G Tips
Would like to see the full build up to Montpellier try again.
Looked to me like the two chasers were offside at the kick.
PG
I think you're right. On the other hand Dunn with a shoulder to the head of a Montpellier player whilst clearing a ruck in the first ten minutes looked a pretty clear red to me and wasn't even given as a penalty.
On the theory that we play in patches, we are now long overdue 20 good minutes.
No plan B then ?
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Plan B must be panic mode . Too many wasted opportunities.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
This ref either does not undrstand offside or does not care.
Still - Bath have only themselves to blame.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Still - Bath have only themselves to blame.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Bath poor again , Montpelier not that special . Well Stuart what’s the answer now ?
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Luke Charteris has work to do!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Best team won, well played Montpellier👏👏
We had our chances but we were clearly out muscled .
Jon Chess
We had our chances but we were clearly out muscled .
Jon Chess
Credit to Montpellier. Brilliant defence in their 22 and took our lineout apart.
We needed to shift the point of attack more when 5-7m out.
We needed to shift the point of attack more when 5-7m out.
One of the most disappointing matches I think I’ve ever seen us play. Fair play to them but, with the quality we have at our disposal, that was absolutely pathetic.
Well so much for this season then. Yet another year of serious underachievement. Still, as long as we come 8th or so in the league that's fine, that's our main aim achieved.....
Are we allowed to criticize players or will that mean the club/players stop communicating with us fans?
As Dr bath says, we have a fantastic quality team.
To get nowhere, year after year, with these players, is quite something.
To get nowhere, year after year, with these players, is quite something.
As a neutral what surprised me was the decision making in the 22/red zone. I think tap and goes are a fantastic element of the game to return, and can be a vital attacking weapon. However when you have over a quarter of the game to go and a one man advantage, then pragmatism can be the order of the day. Take the 3, get within 3 points and go again. Montpellier we’re doing a cracking defensive job and game plans need to adjust to meet the challenge.
A full blooded and enjoyable semi final though.
A full blooded and enjoyable semi final though.
Well said Wombles- spot on.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Yep a great game from a neutral prospective but very frustrating for a Bath fan. Ewels looked and said he was gutted. Leadership has to improve when we are in the red zone as the pick and go was not working and we had a man advantage so why not use the width. As regards line outs PG is spot on that Luke has some work to do, but why, they have been one of our strengths in the past?
I don't think I've ever been this angry after a Bath "performance".
Utterly embarrassing.
Utterly embarrassing.
Scratch below the headline names and inadequate coaching and we are a mid table team. We will come 4th once in a while and get to semi finals but to win it needs focus strategy and a proper DOR not a rookie. Bristol got serious with Pat Lamb we didn't.
How many times do we start strongly and then fall apart with error after error through pretty much the rest of the match. Our whole game plan is so formulaic that if it isn't working the players have no clue what to do or how to change it.
Delagllio was right, we should have shortened the lineout. Thrown to the prop earlier. Pretty much anything other than do the same thing again that has just gone wrong.
Delagllio was right, we should have shortened the lineout. Thrown to the prop earlier. Pretty much anything other than do the same thing again that has just gone wrong.
If your entire game plan is based on forward dominance and you can't win a lineout... you're gonna have a bad time.
I don't have a problem with the pick and go decisions particularly. If our lineout was it's usual self there is no way they'd have been able to deal with it for long enough.
Congrats to Montpellier. No lineout, no win.
I don't have a problem with the pick and go decisions particularly. If our lineout was it's usual self there is no way they'd have been able to deal with it for long enough.
Congrats to Montpellier. No lineout, no win.
It wouldn't fix the lineouts, but personally I think we really missed Preistland tonight. Why? He would have been demanding the ball from 9. Nothing against young Bailey, but with our 1st two playmakers (10 & 12) being very young, I didn't see either commanding the ball. We lacked that experienced head in a key position. Too much when through Spencer and not enough ideas were coming from wider out.
Massively frustrated. The team blew it. The occasion got to them. Watson was a class apart.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:01:22:37:52 by BathSalmon.
Massively frustrated. The team blew it. The occasion got to them. Watson was a class apart.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:01:22:37:52 by BathSalmon.
BS
I think Bailey played well- he did not look at all out of place in a game of that importance - that is in his skills.
I agree with you though in his influence. We seem very (over?) reliant on Spencer and I think a more experienced 10 may well have made a closer go of it for us.
I also think we should have kicked a goal or two when the pick & goes weren't working. that would have put more pressure on Montpellier and saved our forwards some energy for the last 10 minutes.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
I think Bailey played well- he did not look at all out of place in a game of that importance - that is in his skills.
I agree with you though in his influence. We seem very (over?) reliant on Spencer and I think a more experienced 10 may well have made a closer go of it for us.
I also think we should have kicked a goal or two when the pick & goes weren't working. that would have put more pressure on Montpellier and saved our forwards some energy for the last 10 minutes.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Year after year after year after year after year our ball retention is that of a village 3rd XV. And yet it NEVER gets fixed. Why is that? Why are we utterly incapable of controlling the ball? Instead of FOUR tight five forward coaches, why not employ a skills coach for god sake.
I’ve never seen such awful ball retention from any side ever. Tonight was a new low. Even from as far back as the Blackadder days it’s been happening but never gets fixed. WHY?
If you want a perfect illustration of our shambolic and unbalanced coaching set up, look no further than being given multiple penalty advantages on the Montpellier line and never once giving the ball some air. YOUVE GOT A PEN COMING, SHIP IT WIDE FOR GOD SAKE.
Watson is “here to win trophies” ? Don’t make me laugh.
Even when we’re practically given a free ride to the final at Twickenham we still can’t manage it. Embarrassing.
I’ve never seen such awful ball retention from any side ever. Tonight was a new low. Even from as far back as the Blackadder days it’s been happening but never gets fixed. WHY?
If you want a perfect illustration of our shambolic and unbalanced coaching set up, look no further than being given multiple penalty advantages on the Montpellier line and never once giving the ball some air. YOUVE GOT A PEN COMING, SHIP IT WIDE FOR GOD SAKE.
Watson is “here to win trophies” ? Don’t make me laugh.
Even when we’re practically given a free ride to the final at Twickenham we still can’t manage it. Embarrassing.
Quote:P G Tips
BS
I think Bailey played well- he did not look at all out of place in a game of that importance - that is in his skills.
I agree with you though in his influence. We seem very (over?) reliant on Spencer and I think a more experienced 10 may well have made a closer go of it for us.
I also think we should have kicked a goal or two when the pick & goes weren't working. that would have put more pressure on Montpellier and saved our forwards some energy for the last 10 minutes.
100% agree. Bailey played well and he is growing into the 10 roll nicely. Sadly though, a Euro Semi final is not the place for someone to find their feet. Not his fault, circumstances dictated it. He will be better next season for it.
But where was the leadership on field? Who was calling the shots? We are a team of fine rugby players, but not a fine team - we came up way short as a team to adapt to the situation as it unfolded.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:01:22:54:32 by BathSalmon.
Quote:hasta
If your entire game plan is based on forward dominance and you can't win a lineout... you're gonna have a bad time.
I don't have a problem with the pick and go decisions particularly. If our lineout was it's usual self there is no way they'd have been able to deal with it for long enough.
Congrats to Montpellier. No lineout, no win.
Agree. We weren't great , in fact fairly poor, but credit to montpellier....its not like other teams have dismantled our line-out completely and repelled us from 5 yards for long periods.they have some v big, v good players.
people have been looking at their league position and ignoring form/ returning players. We bring walker off the bench and they bring on bismark du plessis. We bring on clark and they have handre pollard. It's a tough ask against French and Irish sides with bigger caps.
When one key area like line-out completely fails to function the wheels can come off. As so often we just weren't clinical and didn't have the ability to vary things.
Positives in terms of individuals- thought stuart, mcnally and mercer went well. Big Joe's best game in a few years imho- like he remembered he is v big and v quick.
Hopefully it truly hurts, lessons are learnt and we come back better. Frustrating and painful watch for the fans!
Don't agree on everything BO but always agree on poor skills/ball retention and imbalance in the coaching staff.
If the lineout and scrum were always awesome you could almost forgive it.
If the lineout and scrum were always awesome you could almost forgive it.
Quote:charlieboa
Positives in terms of individuals- thought stuart, mcnally and mercer went well. Big Joe's best game in a few years imho- like he remembered he is v big and v quick.
Hopefully it truly hurts, lessons are learnt and we come back better. Frustrating and painful watch for the fans!
Add Watson to that Charlie - think he cemented his Lions ticket tonight. Redpath had his moments too.
PG
Quote:P G TipsQuote:charlieboa
Positives in terms of individuals- thought stuart, mcnally and mercer went well. Big Joe's best game in a few years imho- like he remembered he is v big and v quick.
Hopefully it truly hurts, lessons are learnt and we come back better. Frustrating and painful watch for the fans!
Add Watson to that Charlie - think he cemented his Lions ticket tonight. Redpath had his moments too.
PG
Sorry, forgot watson who was our best player I thought
Just watched the game. Very frustrating. We had all the chances we needed and we didn't take them. Very poor on-field leadership not to take the points on offer and not to sort the line out much, much sooner.
A sadly accurate distillation of our season into 80 baffling minutes.
My MotM - Anthony. But there was precious little competition.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
A sadly accurate distillation of our season into 80 baffling minutes.
My MotM - Anthony. But there was precious little competition.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
The Montpellier team jumping up and down singing in their huddle after the final whistle. Never in a million years would Bath do something like that. Maybe a handshake or two.
Leicester won on Friday night. Didn’t see them singing a song or jumping up and down. Must be a rotten culture at WR too.
As rubbish as we were, I can’t doubt the effort or togetherness.
As rubbish as we were, I can’t doubt the effort or togetherness.
Quote:bardofavon
our best second row is mcnally and stooke. by a country mile. mcnally is a better captain than ewels. the question then is why ewels is continually selected in preference.
Exactly, on field leadership and decision making .
Missing in action yesterday?
29%. Possession/Territory in the opposition 22 and how many points.........? Correct Nil
If actions are clearly not working why persist ........once again no plan B.
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Quote:ballsout
The Montpellier team jumping up and down singing in their huddle after the final whistle. Never in a million years would Bath do something like that. Maybe a handshake or two.
Why don't you grow up you troll?
Yet again you undo your valid comments with this utter rubbish, deliberately trying to wind everyone else up.
Quote:ballsout
The Montpellier team jumping up and down singing in their huddle after the final whistle. Never in a million years would Bath do something like that. Maybe a handshake or two.
No matter how badly Bath play and how much I want to kick the cat nothing, I repeat nothing, they do annoys me as much as your miserable negative responses. In all seriousness I think you should refrain from posting anything in the 24 hours after a game and only post on this board when you have attained some perspective.
Sorry Jonathan not this season Silver Ware
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Quote:CoochieCoo
Oh for a proper culture and all will be well in the world of Bath Rugby!
fixed that for you.
Quote:Beergoggles
No matter how badly Bath play and how much I want to kick the cat nothing, I repeat nothing, they do annoys me as much as your miserable negative responses.
Then don't read them.
Last night was a new low for this club.
And yet Tarquin will continue on as though nothing happened.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Sorry Jonathan not this season Silver Ware
If him and Watson wanted to win trophies they came to the wrong club. Even when one was practically gift wrapped for us, we still choked.
Didn’t Kahn Fotuali’i used to lead the huddle and singing after a game ?
Anyway what’s wrong with the supporters having a singsong after a game ?
Ironically signed for Montpelier!
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Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Anyway what’s wrong with the supporters having a singsong after a game ?
Ironically signed for Montpelier!
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:ballsoutQuote:CoochieCoo
Oh for a proper culture and all will be well in the world of Bath Rugby!
fixed that for you.
Quote:Beergoggles
No matter how badly Bath play and how much I want to kick the cat nothing, I repeat nothing, they do annoys me as much as your miserable negative responses.
Then don't read them.
Last night was a new low for this club.
And yet Tarquin will continue on as though nothing happened.
Sadly it's almost impossible not to as the forum doesn't have the feature to block a troll's posts. If it did then I'm certain you would be the most blocked troll.
Quote:ballsout
Oh for a proper culture by finding a birdie song and all will be well in the world of Bath Rugby!
fixed that for you.
FTFY
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:02:09:00:22 by CoochieCoo.
Bath's forward's muscle is certainly not in their heads. How often do you need to fail to batter down a 5m defensive line before the light bulb switches on? For Bath it seems like forever and never. Head banging in the dark. Again. Toss in a shambolic line out and an inert lateral three-quarter line and Montpelier didn't have to do much to win the game. Word to Stu and the "coaches", drop goals are still legitimate tender. And for all our sakes, find a savvy and enterprising on-field leader. To be called captain is not enough. You have to be captain.
OK I chose to refrain from posting straight after the match as it taints the overall picture.
I am so bitterly disappointed with the team and the coaches - Let us not skip around the issue this was a HUGE opportunity.
On paper we had very little chance, however this Montpellier team is as low on morale as any team can be hence the celebrations at the end which personally I have no issues with whatsoever. They have come to our pitch and beaten us fair and square so why shouldn't they celebrate?
The best words I can find for us is habitual underachievers. We look like a team frightens to win, the fact we had that long in the red zone and came away with nothing against a team with a such a poureous defence as Montpellier is absolutely frightening.
I really do not Know what the issues are with Bath but it certainly runs deeper than I first thought.
We may have beaten Tigers a few weeks ago but I think they showed on Friday in that 2nd half performance they are way down the evolutionary trail than we are.
Again last night showed basic skills and drills. If you cannot win your ow ball you will struggle against any opposition. Losing that many line outs and being turned over that often in the red zone e is absolutely CRIMINAL.
No easy fix, but for the sake of our club I hope they find it.
I am so bitterly disappointed with the team and the coaches - Let us not skip around the issue this was a HUGE opportunity.
On paper we had very little chance, however this Montpellier team is as low on morale as any team can be hence the celebrations at the end which personally I have no issues with whatsoever. They have come to our pitch and beaten us fair and square so why shouldn't they celebrate?
The best words I can find for us is habitual underachievers. We look like a team frightens to win, the fact we had that long in the red zone and came away with nothing against a team with a such a poureous defence as Montpellier is absolutely frightening.
I really do not Know what the issues are with Bath but it certainly runs deeper than I first thought.
We may have beaten Tigers a few weeks ago but I think they showed on Friday in that 2nd half performance they are way down the evolutionary trail than we are.
Again last night showed basic skills and drills. If you cannot win your ow ball you will struggle against any opposition. Losing that many line outs and being turned over that often in the red zone e is absolutely CRIMINAL.
No easy fix, but for the sake of our club I hope they find it.
One thing Montpellier's defence hasn't been this season is porous. Didn't they put up a stat last night saying they have conceded the second fewest tries in the Top 14 this season.
Quote:Deckchair
Bath's forward's muscle is certainly not in their heads. How often do you need to fail to batter down a 5m defensive line before the light bulb switches on? For Bath it seems like forever and never. Head banging in the dark. Again. Toss in a shambolic line out and an inert lateral three-quarter line and Montpelier didn't have to do much to win the game. Word to Stu and the "coaches", drop goals are still legitimate tender. And for all our sakes, find a savvy and enterprising on-field leader. To be called captain is not enough. You have to be captain.
You think Hooper, Hatley, Charteris and Lilley know what a drop goal is? Dempsey and Ryan Davis might but no one listens to them anyway.
They get awarded penalty advantage however many times, and they STILL don't chance their arm and ship the ball out wide. Utterly braindead.
Tarquin, get a proper coaching team in place, or at the very least hire a skills coach fgs. Otherwise show yourself the door. Imagine hiring a man with zero experience of coaching or running any team, to run a Premiership club. Shambles.
Quote:ballsoutQuote:Deckchair
Bath's forward's muscle is certainly not in their heads. How often do you need to fail to batter down a 5m defensive line before the light bulb switches on? For Bath it seems like forever and never. Head banging in the dark. Again. Toss in a shambolic line out and an inert lateral three-quarter line and Montpelier didn't have to do much to win the game. Word to Stu and the "coaches", drop goals are still legitimate tender. And for all our sakes, find a savvy and enterprising on-field leader. To be called captain is not enough. You have to be captain.
You think Hooper, Hatley, Charteris and Lilley know what a drop goal is? Dempsey and Ryan Davis might but no one listens to them anyway.
They get awarded penalty advantage however many times, and they STILL don't chance their arm and ship the ball out wide. Utterly braindead.
Tarquin, get a proper coaching team in place, or at the very least hire a skills coach fgs. Otherwise show yourself the door. Imagine hiring a man with zero experience of coaching or running any team, to run a Premiership club. Shambles.
Actually kind of agree with you on this. I know fingers point at Hooper at lot, but for me the questions have to be seriously asked of Hatley. He is the Head Coach; the play, the lack of cohesion and the team failing to add up to the sum of their parts, is all his area to to manage.
On Friday evening Leicester Tigers were playing in a Challenge Cup semi final.
In the first half they were dreadful and were being beaten out of sight. The head coach, ex of this parish, had enough knowledge, nous and testicular fortitude to realise what the problem was and make drastic early changes to the personnel and approach.
Leicester had a stellar second half and completely turned the game around, winning comfortably.
Compare and contrast...
In the first half they were dreadful and were being beaten out of sight. The head coach, ex of this parish, had enough knowledge, nous and testicular fortitude to realise what the problem was and make drastic early changes to the personnel and approach.
Leicester had a stellar second half and completely turned the game around, winning comfortably.
Compare and contrast...
I thought the same at the time, there's no way the coaches would have the balls to make the tactical changes that Borthwick did at half time.
Leicester Tigers have an identity. As Steve Diamond so succinctly put it, Bath don't.
Quote:dr.bath1865
Leicester won on Friday night. Didn’t see them singing a song or jumping up and down. Must be a rotten culture at WR too.
Leicester Tigers have an identity. As Steve Diamond so succinctly put it, Bath don't.
[quote
You think Hooper, Hatley, Charteris and Lilley know what a drop goal is? Dempsey and Ryan Davis might but no one listens to them anyway.
They get awarded penalty advantage however many times, and they STILL don't chance their arm and ship the ball out wide. Utterly braindead.
Tarquin, get a proper coaching team in place, or at the very least hire a skills coach fgs. Otherwise show yourself the door. Imagine hiring a man with zero experience of coaching or running any team, to run a Premiership club. Shambles.[/quote]
Actually kind of agree with you on this. I know fingers point at Hooper at lot, but for me the questions have to be seriously asked of Hatley. He is the Head Coach; the play, the lack of cohesion and the team failing to add up to the sum of their parts, is all his area to to manage.[/quote]
Tend to agree.
When you have penalty advantage multiple times and don't use the opp to try something different to what has repeatedly failed its rather dim. Either fling it wide, take the pen, take a drop.
Cips will help massively here. His mere presence will mean teams can't assume we will just continually pick and drive over and over again as he will demand the ball and execute.
Problem last night was they could just pack loads of huge men within 2 yards either side of ruck knowing they really didn't need to worry about anything else.
You think Hooper, Hatley, Charteris and Lilley know what a drop goal is? Dempsey and Ryan Davis might but no one listens to them anyway.
They get awarded penalty advantage however many times, and they STILL don't chance their arm and ship the ball out wide. Utterly braindead.
Tarquin, get a proper coaching team in place, or at the very least hire a skills coach fgs. Otherwise show yourself the door. Imagine hiring a man with zero experience of coaching or running any team, to run a Premiership club. Shambles.[/quote]
Actually kind of agree with you on this. I know fingers point at Hooper at lot, but for me the questions have to be seriously asked of Hatley. He is the Head Coach; the play, the lack of cohesion and the team failing to add up to the sum of their parts, is all his area to to manage.[/quote]
Tend to agree.
When you have penalty advantage multiple times and don't use the opp to try something different to what has repeatedly failed its rather dim. Either fling it wide, take the pen, take a drop.
Cips will help massively here. His mere presence will mean teams can't assume we will just continually pick and drive over and over again as he will demand the ball and execute.
Problem last night was they could just pack loads of huge men within 2 yards either side of ruck knowing they really didn't need to worry about anything else.
As discussed last week it feels unlikely ewels is rated so highly by so many for no reason.
However you have to question him last night don't you? On field decision making and leadership rather non-existent? Lineout leader- total disaster area and only partially resolved in the last 20 mins.
He is still a relatively young captain so let's hope he learns and learns fast.
However you have to question him last night don't you? On field decision making and leadership rather non-existent? Lineout leader- total disaster area and only partially resolved in the last 20 mins.
He is still a relatively young captain so let's hope he learns and learns fast.
What I did like from the Montpellier defence was as the game went on, if our pick and drives were a little high, then extra defenders would come in to support the initial tacklers to help push our 'carrier pod' backwards a few yards. We tend to score from the pick n drive if our carrier can keep his feet after the initial contact and not just fall to floor. The Montpellier defence, seems to flood in on the carrier, push them back and then the extra defenders would quickly get back to position (be it offside or not). Thought it was very effective.
Quote:BathSalmon
What I did like from the Montpellier defence was as the game went on, if our pick and drives were a little high, then extra defenders would come in to support the initial tacklers to help push our 'carrier pod' backwards a few yards. We tend to score from the pick n drive if our carrier can keep his feet after the initial contact and not just fall to floor. The Montpellier defence, seems to flood in on the carrier, push them back and then the extra defenders would quickly get back to position (be it offside or not). Thought it was very effective.
I do think people underestimated montpellier based on early season form. They dismantled our line-out and pick and drive game game in a way others haven't been able to. They have a lot of very good, very experienced, v good players.
As you say showed some in-game intelligence and problem solving. Whilst their continual questioning of the refs interpretation of how they were defending wound me up I think they got into the refs head and that is effective leadership.
Game aside, it was an interesting point made about being able to tackle the players latching onto the ball carrier.
I thought exactly the same, malco. Maybe Reid and Bayliss should’ve come on at half time.
Having said that, having calmed down a little, I think if Ford had been in the Bath 10 shirt, I think we’d have won by a distance. That’s not lumping it all on one lad’s inexperience or a slight at Bailey (not much, anyway). In a couple of years he could well be a top 10, but we had no direction in the backs last night, none, as we haven’t had for weeks.
We’ve missed Rhys so much in the month or so he’s been out. His goal kicking, the pressure he takes of Spencer, but before his injury we actually looked to be developing a bit of structure and invention in the backs. Not much but some.
Man alive, last night we just needed a 10, any experienced 10, (Ford, Rhys, Schoeman, Cip!) to take the game by the scruff of the neck and drive home our advantage. Fact we didn’t is a little bit of bad luck, as Orlando is our 4th choice (5th including Cipriani), but Bailey has played half a dozen games now but still doesn’t look to be either able or trusted to run the game as any 10 must. Very odd.
Watson was the best back on the pitch, one of the most dangerous runners in world rugby. The only opportunity he got to run was from kick returns. Not once did we give him the ball off a scrum or from a ruck (with advantage, 5 yards out perhaps) on an outside shoulder. He had a good game - but we completely waste him as we’ve no way or no idea how to move the ball from 9 to the outside channels via 10.
Maddening. A complete waste of our resources. For me, bad luck that we didn’t have a more experienced 10 in place but, more so, a failure of coaching from our blinkered focus on the mindless pick and go to the apparent failure to coach a talented back line to put the ball wide to our world class full back and decent wingers.
Roll on Cipriani, as both player and backs coach.
Having said that, having calmed down a little, I think if Ford had been in the Bath 10 shirt, I think we’d have won by a distance. That’s not lumping it all on one lad’s inexperience or a slight at Bailey (not much, anyway). In a couple of years he could well be a top 10, but we had no direction in the backs last night, none, as we haven’t had for weeks.
We’ve missed Rhys so much in the month or so he’s been out. His goal kicking, the pressure he takes of Spencer, but before his injury we actually looked to be developing a bit of structure and invention in the backs. Not much but some.
Man alive, last night we just needed a 10, any experienced 10, (Ford, Rhys, Schoeman, Cip!) to take the game by the scruff of the neck and drive home our advantage. Fact we didn’t is a little bit of bad luck, as Orlando is our 4th choice (5th including Cipriani), but Bailey has played half a dozen games now but still doesn’t look to be either able or trusted to run the game as any 10 must. Very odd.
Watson was the best back on the pitch, one of the most dangerous runners in world rugby. The only opportunity he got to run was from kick returns. Not once did we give him the ball off a scrum or from a ruck (with advantage, 5 yards out perhaps) on an outside shoulder. He had a good game - but we completely waste him as we’ve no way or no idea how to move the ball from 9 to the outside channels via 10.
Maddening. A complete waste of our resources. For me, bad luck that we didn’t have a more experienced 10 in place but, more so, a failure of coaching from our blinkered focus on the mindless pick and go to the apparent failure to coach a talented back line to put the ball wide to our world class full back and decent wingers.
Roll on Cipriani, as both player and backs coach.
This is a collective responsibility not just a captain, DoR or Head Coach.
We have real issues surrounding our basic skills and drills and actually understanding the game as it presents itself.
We actually appear to be frightened to win, confused as to how to play the game. That is a collective responsibility not an individuals.
Clearly our Internationals under perform for our club but is that because we are not utilising them in the right way?
Borthwick was an extremely astute player and has become an equally astute coach - he saw the way the game was going on Friday and intervened tactics and personnel. We appear unable or inable to do the same.
To me it is simple if you want to beat Bath disrupt their forwards they will self implode and let the rest take care of itself. The pack just have to start being more intelligent they are so predictable and wooden it is becoming ridiculous.
We can be a.great side but we must first address the issues that cause what happened last night and have blighted us in every bid game instead of ignoring it and thinking it will go away.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:02:13:28:39 by Ali1969.
We have real issues surrounding our basic skills and drills and actually understanding the game as it presents itself.
We actually appear to be frightened to win, confused as to how to play the game. That is a collective responsibility not an individuals.
Clearly our Internationals under perform for our club but is that because we are not utilising them in the right way?
Borthwick was an extremely astute player and has become an equally astute coach - he saw the way the game was going on Friday and intervened tactics and personnel. We appear unable or inable to do the same.
To me it is simple if you want to beat Bath disrupt their forwards they will self implode and let the rest take care of itself. The pack just have to start being more intelligent they are so predictable and wooden it is becoming ridiculous.
We can be a.great side but we must first address the issues that cause what happened last night and have blighted us in every bid game instead of ignoring it and thinking it will go away.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:02:13:28:39 by Ali1969.
3 issues for me:
- maintaining a high level of performance of basic skills under pressure;
- on field leadership/decision making; and
- historic inability to resource a long term succession plan at fly half.
- maintaining a high level of performance of basic skills under pressure;
- on field leadership/decision making; and
- historic inability to resource a long term succession plan at fly half.
The culture doesn't allow for ruthless changes like Borthwick did. It isn't like Leicester (and most successful clubs) where if you underperform you get dropped.
Bathsalmon quote 'the team failing to add up to the sum of their parts' for me, says more in a simple sentence than most of the posts I've seen for some time, well said Sir. but Bath are a consistent team in that they consistently fail to achieve the abysmally low standard they set themselves .
Quote:ballsout
The culture doesn't allow for ruthless changes like Borthwick did. It isn't like Leicester (and most successful clubs) where if you underperform you get dropped.
This is what I was alluding to last week. Reid played an absolute blinder last week and has generally outperformed underhill and faletau this season (tho both have done well).
His reward, benched for the biggest game of the season. I don't think that is great for culture and driving performance.
Quote:malco
On Friday evening Leicester Tigers were playing in a Challenge Cup semi final.
In the first half they were dreadful and were being beaten out of sight. The head coach, ex of this parish, had enough knowledge, nous and testicular fortitude to realise what the problem was and make drastic early changes to the personnel and approach.
Leicester had a stellar second half and completely turned the game around, winning comfortably.
Compare and contrast...
Spot on !
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
I didn't see the game so today is an interesting read on here. Well, from some posters....
The frustration is we have an incoming 10 and a new coach, both intended to influence our attack but arriving too late for this opportunity.
So the club leaders have recognised the problem but fixed it too late. I am looking forward to the future.
The frustration is we have an incoming 10 and a new coach, both intended to influence our attack but arriving too late for this opportunity.
So the club leaders have recognised the problem but fixed it too late. I am looking forward to the future.
Quote:B4thB4ck
I didn't see the game so today is an interesting read on here. Well, from some posters....
The frustration is we have an incoming 10 and a new coach, both intended to influence our attack but arriving too late for this opportunity.
So the club leaders have recognised the problem but fixed it too late. I am looking forward to the future.
Who is the new coach?
Quote:BathSalmonQuote:B4thB4ck
I didn't see the game so today is an interesting read on here. Well, from some posters....
The frustration is we have an incoming 10 and a new coach, both intended to influence our attack but arriving too late for this opportunity.
So the club leaders have recognised the problem but fixed it too late. I am looking forward to the future.
Who is the new coach?
This one?
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Quote:B4thB4ckQuote:BathSalmonQuote:B4thB4ck
I didn't see the game so today is an interesting read on here. Well, from some posters....
The frustration is we have an incoming 10 and a new coach, both intended to influence our attack but arriving too late for this opportunity.
So the club leaders have recognised the problem but fixed it too late. I am looking forward to the future.
Who is the new coach?
This one?
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
But will he bring a birdie song with him?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:02:13:55:19 by CoochieCoo.
Just out of interest I presume that these clubs with their songs don't have enough team spirit to still sing them if they lose?
It will be Eurovision soon so maybe Bath could pick up some ideas from that.
It will be Eurovision soon so maybe Bath could pick up some ideas from that.
Quote:ballsout
The culture doesn't allow for ruthless changes like Borthwick did. It isn't like Leicester (and most successful clubs) where if you underperform you get dropped.
Terrible example. Borthwick is getting credit precisely because hauling off the under-performing "names" which isn't something normally done by any Premiership club. If there was a club synonymous with players being given, not earning, their shirts based on rep over the past seasons its Tigers.
Quote:dr.bath1865
I thought exactly the same, malco. Maybe Reid and Bayliss should’ve come on at half time.
Having said that, having calmed down a little, I think if Ford had been in the Bath 10 shirt, I think we’d have won by a distance. That’s not lumping it all on one lad’s inexperience or a slight at Bailey (not much, anyway). In a couple of years he could well be a top 10, but we had no direction in the backs last night, none, as we haven’t had for weeks.
We’ve missed Rhys so much in the month or so he’s been out. His goal kicking, the pressure he takes of Spencer, but before his injury we actually looked to be developing a bit of structure and invention in the backs. Not much but some.
Man alive, last night we just needed a 10, any experienced 10, (Ford, Rhys, Schoeman, Cip!) to take the game by the scruff of the neck and drive home our advantage. Fact we didn’t is a little bit of bad luck, as Orlando is our 4th choice (5th including Cipriani), but Bailey has played half a dozen games now but still doesn’t look to be either able or trusted to run the game as any 10 must. Very odd.
Watson was the best back on the pitch, one of the most dangerous runners in world rugby. The only opportunity he got to run was from kick returns. Not once did we give him the ball off a scrum or from a ruck (with advantage, 5 yards out perhaps) on an outside shoulder. He had a good game - but we completely waste him as we’ve no way or no idea how to move the ball from 9 to the outside channels via 10.
Maddening. A complete waste of our resources. For me, bad luck that we didn’t have a more experienced 10 in place but, more so, a failure of coaching from our blinkered focus on the mindless pick and go to the apparent failure to coach a talented back line to put the ball wide to our world class full back and decent wingers.
Roll on Cipriani, as both player and backs coach.
100% this, Bailey might have potential but we are not going to win games like this, or indeed the majority of games, if he plays at 10 (at the present), Those calling for him to be given more games and not to be over protected cannot then be disappointed when we lose with him at ten, if Priestland had been playing I think we would have won comfortably, just compare the restarts and general game organisation. The players have to be able to, and be allowed to, adapt to changing situations on the pitch, something Cipriani will do if allowed. I would be interested in knowing who within the club wanted him to be signed!
Quote:B4thB4ckQuote:BathSalmonQuote:B4thB4ck
I didn't see the game so today is an interesting read on here. Well, from some posters....
The frustration is we have an incoming 10 and a new coach, both intended to influence our attack but arriving too late for this opportunity.
So the club leaders have recognised the problem but fixed it too late. I am looking forward to the future.
Who is the new coach?
This one?
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Completely forgot that was announced. Thanks
Sadly we were back to the games where physical effort was prioritised over brains and tactics.
Their analysis was better than ours. They destroyed our lineout, knew we under-committed to the ruck and neturalised our 5 metre pick and drive. We didn't anticipate any of this and had no gameplan outside of the very obvious.
Wonder if Priestland would have taken the 3 when the yellow card was issued and put them under intense pressure not to give up further penalties.
Not a good day. Effort is much more than physical collisions but also the willingness to test skill levels under pressure. We are still unwilling to move away from the conservative options of bash and blunder.
Fine to go for the short drives if we have physical superiority but towards the end that was just blind hope.
Their analysis was better than ours. They destroyed our lineout, knew we under-committed to the ruck and neturalised our 5 metre pick and drive. We didn't anticipate any of this and had no gameplan outside of the very obvious.
Wonder if Priestland would have taken the 3 when the yellow card was issued and put them under intense pressure not to give up further penalties.
Not a good day. Effort is much more than physical collisions but also the willingness to test skill levels under pressure. We are still unwilling to move away from the conservative options of bash and blunder.
Fine to go for the short drives if we have physical superiority but towards the end that was just blind hope.
I find it all a bit weird that so many people on this board seem to have so much more experience, knowledge, analysis, tactics, coaching ability than the Bath management and coaching team. Can't understand why Ownership doesn't employ all the know it alls on this board - we'd be winning every week. Just a thought (no malice intended).
Quote:hemington
I find it all a bit weird that so many people on this board seem to have so much more experience, knowledge, analysis, tactics, coaching ability than the Bath management and coaching team. Can't understand why Ownership doesn't employ all the know it alls on this board - we'd be winning every week. Just a thought (no malice intended).
What do you expect people on a rugby message board to do after 10 years of underachievement?
Quote:B4thB4ck
Just out of interest I presume that these clubs with their songs don't have enough team spirit to still sing them if they lose?
It will be Eurovision soon so maybe Bath could pick up some ideas from that.
No, all the clubs who have a victory song (pretty much all clubs except us from what I understand) don’t sing them when they lose. That would be silly.
Amusing seeing people ridicule my point about team spirit. As if I haven’t been proven right about our failings year and year. There’s a reason Exeter and now Bristol have left us in the dust, and it's not all about on the field rugby.
Quote:OrientalKruisQuote:ballsout
The culture doesn't allow for ruthless changes like Borthwick did. It isn't like Leicester (and most successful clubs) where if you underperform you get dropped.
Terrible example. Borthwick is getting credit precisely because hauling off the under-performing "names" which isn't something normally done by any Premiership club. If there was a club synonymous with players being given, not earning, their shirts based on rep over the past seasons its Tigers.
Yes and Tigers have been failing for years. It’s obviously a recent shift that Borthwick has brought in.
Quote:B4thB4ck
The frustration is we have an incoming 10 and a new coach, both intended to influence our attack but arriving too late for this opportunity.
So the club leaders have recognised the problem but fixed it too late. I am looking forward to the future.
Oh good another coach parachuted in, I’m sure he’ll be more successful than all the others that have tried and failed to make something of this team.
As for fixing problems, they've identified we have our 34 year old 10 leaving, so signed a 33 year old instead, one who couldn't be any less of a fit for our current gameplan.
Quote:So who is the fly half we should sign? Serious question!!! Someone with a good voice obviously. Not serious statement! What will you do with yourself if Bath ever start to get it right.ballsoutQuote:hemington
I find it all a bit weird that so many people on this board seem to have so much more experience, knowledge, analysis, tactics, coaching ability than the Bath management and coaching team. Can't understand why Ownership doesn't employ all the know it alls on this board - we'd be winning every week. Just a thought (no malice intended).
What do you expect people on a rugby message board to do after 10 years of underachievement?
Quote:B4thB4ck
Just out of interest I presume that these clubs with their songs don't have enough team spirit to still sing them if they lose?
It will be Eurovision soon so maybe Bath could pick up some ideas from that.
No, all the clubs who have a victory song (pretty much all clubs except us from what I understand) don’t sing them when they lose. That would be silly.
Amusing seeing people ridicule my point about team spirit. As if I haven’t been proven right about our failings year and year. There’s a reason Exeter and now Bristol have left us in the dust, and it's not all about on the field rugby.
Quote:OrientalKruisQuote:ballsout
The culture doesn't allow for ruthless changes like Borthwick did. It isn't like Leicester (and most successful clubs) where if you underperform you get dropped.
Terrible example. Borthwick is getting credit precisely because hauling off the under-performing "names" which isn't something normally done by any Premiership club. If there was a club synonymous with players being given, not earning, their shirts based on rep over the past seasons its Tigers.
Yes and Tigers have been failing for years. It’s obviously a recent shift that Borthwick has brought in.
Quote:B4thB4ck
The frustration is we have an incoming 10 and a new coach, both intended to influence our attack but arriving too late for this opportunity.
So the club leaders have recognised the problem but fixed it too late. I am looking forward to the future.
Oh good another coach parachuted in, I’m sure he’ll be more successful than all the others that have tried and failed to make something of this team.
As for fixing problems, they've identified we have our 34 year old 10 leaving, so signed a 33 year old instead, one who couldn't be any less of a fit for our current gameplan.
Quote:Long TermQuote:dr.bath1865
I thought exactly the same, malco. Maybe Reid and Bayliss should’ve come on at half time.
Having said that, having calmed down a little, I think if Ford had been in the Bath 10 shirt, I think we’d have won by a distance. That’s not lumping it all on one lad’s inexperience or a slight at Bailey (not much, anyway). In a couple of years he could well be a top 10, but we had no direction in the backs last night, none, as we haven’t had for weeks.
We’ve missed Rhys so much in the month or so he’s been out. His goal kicking, the pressure he takes of Spencer, but before his injury we actually looked to be developing a bit of structure and invention in the backs. Not much but some.
Man alive, last night we just needed a 10, any experienced 10, (Ford, Rhys, Schoeman, Cip!) to take the game by the scruff of the neck and drive home our advantage. Fact we didn’t is a little bit of bad luck, as Orlando is our 4th choice (5th including Cipriani), but Bailey has played half a dozen games now but still doesn’t look to be either able or trusted to run the game as any 10 must. Very odd.
Watson was the best back on the pitch, one of the most dangerous runners in world rugby. The only opportunity he got to run was from kick returns. Not once did we give him the ball off a scrum or from a ruck (with advantage, 5 yards out perhaps) on an outside shoulder. He had a good game - but we completely waste him as we’ve no way or no idea how to move the ball from 9 to the outside channels via 10.
Maddening. A complete waste of our resources. For me, bad luck that we didn’t have a more experienced 10 in place but, more so, a failure of coaching from our blinkered focus on the mindless pick and go to the apparent failure to coach a talented back line to put the ball wide to our world class full back and decent wingers.
Roll on Cipriani, as both player and backs coach.
100% this, Bailey might have potential but we are not going to win games like this, or indeed the majority of games, if he plays at 10 (at the present), Those calling for him to be given more games and not to be over protected cannot then be disappointed when we lose with him at ten, if Priestland had been playing I think we would have won comfortably, just compare the restarts and general game organisation. The players have to be able to, and be allowed to, adapt to changing situations on the pitch, something Cipriani will do if allowed. I would be interested in knowing who within the club wanted him to be signed!
Yep, spot on. Bailey may be the future and he may have the skillsets, unfortunately he does not have the leadership or game management acumen. Can’t help feeling that with Rhys at out half things would have been much better.
Big nods to Mercer and Watson who played extremely well. Thought that Schoeman did great but we missed Benos bulk in the red zone.
Gutted
We’ve played plenty of games with RP at 10 where he has stood and watched while the forwards batter into brick walls. Bailey wasn’t the problem and I’m not sure Priestland was the answer. Spencer and/or the coaching team decided that pick & drive and box-kicks were the only tactic. Last night was farcical. I suspect that 29% possession in the 22 in an entire half for 0 points is a record.
The problem was not Bailey/Rhys. The problem was 100% the lineout. Which wasn't really something you'd predict.
Quote:Even with the lineout problems I would expect a quality experienced fly half to have manufactured points from the amount of pressure we had on their line, Bailey is not experienced or confident enough at this stage to demand ball, change tack, and make things happen when needed even possibly going against agreed tactics. Would we have won with Cipriani playing and would the tactics have been limited to pick and go on their line?hasta
The problem was not Bailey/Rhys. The problem was 100% the lineout. Which wasn't really something you'd predict.
Quote:Long Term
Bailey is not experienced or confident enough at this stage to demand ball, change tack, and make things happen when needed even possibly going against agreed tactics. Would we have won with Cipriani playing and would the tactics have been limited to pick and go on their line?
When have you ever seen Rhys ‘demand’ the ball?
Yes, we’d have won with a fit/in-firm Cipriani. He would have demanded the ball irrespective of pre-prescribed tactics.
Quote:Optimist
Last night was farcical. I suspect that 29% possession in the 22 in an entire half for 0 points is a record.
And not one that Bath Rugby would want to shout too loud about !
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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Quote:Long Term
So who is the fly half we should sign? Serious question!!! Someone with a good voice obviously.
I don't know who is available. I'm fine with Cipriani but it's hardly a long term option.
Quote:What will you do with yourself if Bath ever start to get it right.
Funnily enough, celebrate! Over to you Tarquin...
Quote:hasta
The problem was not Bailey/Rhys. The problem was 100% the lineout. Which wasn't really something you'd predict.
The lineout was terrible and one of the worst I've seen from any team (another record?), but was far from the only reason for last night's latest choke.
100% a psychological 'choke' for me.
Big game, world class players like Watson rise to the challenge of a match like that - their performance improves - but the majority of our lads were over thinking the consequences of their actions, losing focus on the process (ie getting each individual skill and decision right: the components of the overall team outcomes).
Yes, credit to Montpellier who were disruptive, but Bath players still don't TRULY believe that they can win things. Leadership could well be a factor.
Big game, world class players like Watson rise to the challenge of a match like that - their performance improves - but the majority of our lads were over thinking the consequences of their actions, losing focus on the process (ie getting each individual skill and decision right: the components of the overall team outcomes).
Yes, credit to Montpellier who were disruptive, but Bath players still don't TRULY believe that they can win things. Leadership could well be a factor.
Quote:I am not picking on Bailey but pointing out the reality of playing him at present, for whatever reason, with Rhys playing I am confident we would have won not by him demanding the ball but by his ability in kicking restarts, up and unders , cross kicks and for territory all of which can present opportunities and change the course of a match.OptimistQuote:Long Term
Bailey is not experienced or confident enough at this stage to demand ball, change tack, and make things happen when needed even possibly going against agreed tactics. Would we have won with Cipriani playing and would the tactics have been limited to pick and go on their line?
When have you ever seen Rhys ‘demand’ the ball?
Yes, we’d have won with a fit/in-firm Cipriani. He would have demanded the ball irrespective of pre-prescribed tactics.
Just a bit on Orlando Bailey, my personal feeling is that the club has simply reaped what it has sown.
Bailey couldn’t handle Lowsowski but sheltering him was massively counterproductive, Spencer became the obvious target stop Spencer or he has a bad game and both the wide game and forwards dominated games go straight out the window.
If the club had doubts about Bailey why didn’t they let Redpath play there? He has proven he could do it. Bailey is now in exactly the position that Hooper wanted to avoid. Inevitably some will be critical of him for not bossing the game. His confidence will be at a low level now and with Cipriani coming how much game time will he get?
Priestland will be back soon as well.
For me the club, Hooper, Dempsey, Hatley whoever have made a total mess of his management and development I’m worried for him now he will have to be a tough cookie to come back from this!
Sorry Bath et al but you made a massive error here that has long term consequences. I also wonder if the failure of the line out is simply because the coaching staff are stretched too thin. We definitely need a specialist back coach who can put some direction and purpose into the three quarters. It has also wasted a golden opportunity.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Bailey couldn’t handle Lowsowski but sheltering him was massively counterproductive, Spencer became the obvious target stop Spencer or he has a bad game and both the wide game and forwards dominated games go straight out the window.
If the club had doubts about Bailey why didn’t they let Redpath play there? He has proven he could do it. Bailey is now in exactly the position that Hooper wanted to avoid. Inevitably some will be critical of him for not bossing the game. His confidence will be at a low level now and with Cipriani coming how much game time will he get?
Priestland will be back soon as well.
For me the club, Hooper, Dempsey, Hatley whoever have made a total mess of his management and development I’m worried for him now he will have to be a tough cookie to come back from this!
Sorry Bath et al but you made a massive error here that has long term consequences. I also wonder if the failure of the line out is simply because the coaching staff are stretched too thin. We definitely need a specialist back coach who can put some direction and purpose into the three quarters. It has also wasted a golden opportunity.
Once again - it's so massively frustrating watching on TV not having a picture of the width of the pitch - we must have been within 10 metres of their line for about 15 minutes in the second half and not once did the cameras pan out. Obviously, it's not the TV producer's fault that our forwards and scrum-half were incapable of lifting their heads up for a nano-second, but it would be nice to be able to see what is actually going on.
Reflecting on it a bit, I do think Spencer - as the senior half-back and the link person has to take a lot of responsibility for the decision-making. But he seems to get stuck in Sarries c. 2015 mode sometimes, doing an impression of Wigglesworth. How is it possible to ignore the fact that you have an 18-stone winger, not to mention Joseph, Muir and Watson playing 7 on 6.
Reflecting on it a bit, I do think Spencer - as the senior half-back and the link person has to take a lot of responsibility for the decision-making. But he seems to get stuck in Sarries c. 2015 mode sometimes, doing an impression of Wigglesworth. How is it possible to ignore the fact that you have an 18-stone winger, not to mention Joseph, Muir and Watson playing 7 on 6.
Hard to argue with any of that SW. It's hardly surprising that Bailey shelled a regulation pass from 9 at one point - he must have been so shocked to actually get a first-receiver pass.
There are so many potential scenarios for how the Cipriani signing, and Bailey's development could pan out, that my head is starting to spin.
There is literally everything from - Cipriani walks out after 3 training sessions having clashed with Hooper about 'game management' while Bailey turns into rugby's equivalent of Haseeb Hamed; through to - Cipriani is the backs coach we've been missing, and magically transforms underperforming Bath by creating the link between their talented forwards and backs, whilst giving Bailey the template of what a confident, game-bossing 10 looks like.
And everything in between. If I were a betting man, i'd get a couple of quid on the former right now.
There are so many potential scenarios for how the Cipriani signing, and Bailey's development could pan out, that my head is starting to spin.
There is literally everything from - Cipriani walks out after 3 training sessions having clashed with Hooper about 'game management' while Bailey turns into rugby's equivalent of Haseeb Hamed; through to - Cipriani is the backs coach we've been missing, and magically transforms underperforming Bath by creating the link between their talented forwards and backs, whilst giving Bailey the template of what a confident, game-bossing 10 looks like.
And everything in between. If I were a betting man, i'd get a couple of quid on the former right now.
Bailey was thrown in way too early, though without Rhys and Tian I am not sure that Hoops had too many options.
Ciprianis arrival will be the opportunity for him to learn from a class 10 and really develop. He needs to grab that opportunity with both hands.
“He will need to be a tough cookie to come back from this” is a ludicrous statement. Quite frankly if he cannot ‘come back from this’ then he has no future in top class rugby.
Ciprianis arrival will be the opportunity for him to learn from a class 10 and really develop. He needs to grab that opportunity with both hands.
“He will need to be a tough cookie to come back from this” is a ludicrous statement. Quite frankly if he cannot ‘come back from this’ then he has no future in top class rugby.
Bailey may not have had the impact on the game that a senior pro/international would have, but I don’t think he did much wrong. Before the arrival of Cipriani, Bailey was 4th choice behind Rhys, Tian and Josh.
When your first 3 choices at fly half are out injured you are left to play your 4th choice, that our 4th choice is a young lab with loads of potential but limited senior experience. In any normal year Bailey could have had experience in the United team or with England U20s in a proper 6Ns campaign, clearly those options have not been available to him or Bath. I think criticising Bath for not preparing him better for this is somewhat unfair given the restrictions that have been in place.
When your first 3 choices at fly half are out injured you are left to play your 4th choice, that our 4th choice is a young lab with loads of potential but limited senior experience. In any normal year Bailey could have had experience in the United team or with England U20s in a proper 6Ns campaign, clearly those options have not been available to him or Bath. I think criticising Bath for not preparing him better for this is somewhat unfair given the restrictions that have been in place.
As soon as Freddie went we all knew that there was a huge gap at 10 should anything happen to Rhys. I actually think that Bath had been fortunate up to that point, it seems almost criminal to not have had a good enough quality backup 10. There was then a big gap to Tian S but obviously then him getting long term crocked so quickly when the solution (?) appeared to be in place was unfortunate.
Yes, I know that others like Josh is able to play 10, but there are issues with all of them either being rusty, out of position or not Premiership 10 quality. Orlando is going to be very good I think but could maybe do with next season out on loan at a Championship club (or abroad) to get regular adult game match time.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:03:14:50:02 by BathMatt53.
Yes, I know that others like Josh is able to play 10, but there are issues with all of them either being rusty, out of position or not Premiership 10 quality. Orlando is going to be very good I think but could maybe do with next season out on loan at a Championship club (or abroad) to get regular adult game match time.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:03:14:50:02 by BathMatt53.
First Bath game I have watched for a long time and was hoping to see an improvement from when I last watched them based on some of the comments over the last year. Unfortunately it was the total opposite, even the lineout which I thought was improving turned out to be hopeless. As far as I could tell the team has gone backwards and just tried (and failed) to be Exeter. The backs played as if they had just met or perhaps all their training has been via Zoom.
Stuck with what was a dire match for the full 80mins, Montpellier really are a poor side that just came to defend (albeit very well), but offered no entertainment value. If Bath had just been a bit wiser in their 22 we could have won quite easily. Never mind though we should secure 8th place in the PL so objective achieved and celebrations for the coaching team.
Stuck with what was a dire match for the full 80mins, Montpellier really are a poor side that just came to defend (albeit very well), but offered no entertainment value. If Bath had just been a bit wiser in their 22 we could have won quite easily. Never mind though we should secure 8th place in the PL so objective achieved and celebrations for the coaching team.
Positives:
1. Watson was pure class.
2. No yellow or red card!!!
3. We won't lose to Tiggers in the final.
1. Watson was pure class.
2. No yellow or red card!!!
3. We won't lose to Tiggers in the final.
Quote:Kidney Stone
Bailey was thrown in way too early, though without Rhys and Tian I am not sure that Hoops had too many options.
Ciprianis arrival will be the opportunity for him to learn from a class 10 and really develop. He needs to grab that opportunity with both hands.
“He will need to be a tough cookie to come back from this” is a ludicrous statement. Quite frankly if he cannot ‘come back from this’ then he has no future in top class rugby.
Precisely, that's my concern, its not his fault in any way at all, if you wanted to erode a young player's confidence then to systematically exclude him in his first senior fixtures is an excellent way of doing it.
I'm sorry you are all so disappointed. Nay, many of you seem surprised.
Better to travel in expectation or whatever the saying is. Why on earth any of you thought we had a cat in hell's chance of coming away with a win against Montpellier just illustrates how some of you JUST DON'T GET IT.
Do you?
Yours ever = in despair.
P.S. Cipriani is not the Messiah btw.
Better to travel in expectation or whatever the saying is. Why on earth any of you thought we had a cat in hell's chance of coming away with a win against Montpellier just illustrates how some of you JUST DON'T GET IT.
Do you?
Yours ever = in despair.
P.S. Cipriani is not the Messiah btw.
Quote:annie blackthorn
Why on earth any of you thought we had a cat in hell's chance of coming away with a win against Montpellier just illustrates how some of you JUST DON'T GET IT.
Do you?
Add the bookies to that then Annie, Skybet and Betfair both had Bath with a 7pt start and Montpellier were 13/8 for the win with the latter. There were polls on both the BBC and RugbyInsideLine sites and the results were 50-50. As it was, Bath could have / should have won if they hadn't been quite so blinkered in the last 25 min, mainly because Montpellier weren't very good mind you.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:annie blackthorn
Better to travel in expectation or whatever the saying is. Why on earth any of you thought we had a cat in hell's chance of coming away with a win against Montpellier just illustrates how some of you JUST DON'T GET IT.
Do you?
.
Do you annie?
It’s knockout rugby - anything can happen.
PG
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:17:09:40 by P G Tips.
My first thought after watching the game was how pleased I was not to be a Montpellier supporter. If that is the best they can do with all the star players they have then good luck to them.
My second thought was just how predictable it all was - did anyone think we would win that with 20/25 minutes to go, camped on their line and only 6 points down? It could have been any time over the past decade, Bath seem to accept defeat far too easily, after all there is always next year, no relegation, season tickets already sold and it will all be forgotten in a week.
My second thought was just how predictable it all was - did anyone think we would win that with 20/25 minutes to go, camped on their line and only 6 points down? It could have been any time over the past decade, Bath seem to accept defeat far too easily, after all there is always next year, no relegation, season tickets already sold and it will all be forgotten in a week.
Montpellier are no mugs. A few on here seem to think we just lost to an awful team. We talk about us not playing to our potential and having a team of superstars. Well if you compare the squads they are pretty similar.
World Class Players - We have Watson and Faletau. They have Pollard and Willemse.
International Class - We have Stuart, Ewels (Although I may argue not), Underhill, Redpath and Joseph. They have Bouthier, Vincent, Rattez, Guirado, Haouas, Camara, Reinach,
These were backed up by the likes of DuPlessis, Lozowski, Lamositele, Quedraogo who are just below international class where we have Dunn, Mercer, Spencer, Cokanasiga at a similar level.
Last season they were fined £2.6mill for breaching the £10mill salary cap. They pay Pollard a reported £1mill alone.
They clearly had issues at the start of the season. But have won 4 out of the last 5 against Stade Francais 31-6, Agen 39-19, Clermont Avergne (3rd in Top 14) 22-16 and Toulouse (Top of Top 14) 29-16.
Yes it's a game I think we could have won and possibly should have won. And but for an awful lineout and poor decision making I'm sure we would have won it. There clearly are issues which need sorting but that wasn't "A new low for the club" as in ballsouts words.
World Class Players - We have Watson and Faletau. They have Pollard and Willemse.
International Class - We have Stuart, Ewels (Although I may argue not), Underhill, Redpath and Joseph. They have Bouthier, Vincent, Rattez, Guirado, Haouas, Camara, Reinach,
These were backed up by the likes of DuPlessis, Lozowski, Lamositele, Quedraogo who are just below international class where we have Dunn, Mercer, Spencer, Cokanasiga at a similar level.
Last season they were fined £2.6mill for breaching the £10mill salary cap. They pay Pollard a reported £1mill alone.
They clearly had issues at the start of the season. But have won 4 out of the last 5 against Stade Francais 31-6, Agen 39-19, Clermont Avergne (3rd in Top 14) 22-16 and Toulouse (Top of Top 14) 29-16.
Yes it's a game I think we could have won and possibly should have won. And but for an awful lineout and poor decision making I'm sure we would have won it. There clearly are issues which need sorting but that wasn't "A new low for the club" as in ballsouts words.
Quote:WellyBathChief
Montpellier are no mugs. A few on here seem to think we just lost to an awful team. We talk about us not playing to our potential and having a team of superstars. Well if you compare the squads they are pretty similar.
World Class Players - We have Watson and Faletau. They have Pollard and Willemse.
International Class - We have Stuart, Ewels (Although I may argue not), Underhill, Redpath and Joseph. They have Bouthier, Vincent, Rattez, Guirado, Haouas, Camara, Reinach,
These were backed up by the likes of DuPlessis, Lozowski, Lamositele, Quedraogo who are just below international class where we have Dunn, Mercer, Spencer, Cokanasiga at a similar level.
Last season they were fined £2.6mill for breaching the £10mill salary cap. They pay Pollard a reported £1mill alone.
They clearly had issues at the start of the season. But have won 4 out of the last 5 against Stade Francais 31-6, Agen 39-19, Clermont Avergne (3rd in Top 14) 22-16 and Toulouse (Top of Top 14) 29-16.
Yes it's a game I think we could have won and possibly should have won. And but for an awful lineout and poor decision making I'm sure we would have won it. There clearly are issues which need sorting but that wasn't "A new low for the club" as in ballsouts words.
A fair point.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
That Montpellier are ‘no mugs’ doesn’t need more than a cursory glance at their teamsheet to confirm. If they’d turned up and squeezed us to death / steamrollered us/ outplayed us / turned up the heat with their world-class bench that would have been salutary but acceptable. They didn’t do any of those things. We blew it. We played really brightly for 10 minutes - both Zach and Ant throwing passes when both would normally take contact. Then we stopped playing for 70 minutes and reverted to absolutely nothing more than pick-and-go and box-kicks.
Quote:Optimist
That Montpellier are ‘no mugs’ doesn’t need more than a cursory glance at their teamsheet to confirm. If they’d turned up and squeezed us to death / steamrollered us/ outplayed us / turned up the heat with their world-class bench that would have been salutary but acceptable. They didn’t do any of those things. We blew it. We played really brightly for 10 minutes - both Zach and Ant throwing passes when both would normally take contact. Then we stopped playing for 70 minutes and reverted to absolutely nothing more than pick-and-go and box-kicks.
And we lost by 9 points. Which rather suggests we're actually a pretty good team who played poorly in a one off game, rather than the end of the world as (somewhat predictably) intoned by our resident "Gloomy Place" dweller.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
That Bath are ‘a pretty good team who played poorly’ doesn’t need more than a cursory glance at the teamsheet to confirm. We have 3 nailed-on Lions. But it has happened too often to be written off as a bad day at the office. I take issue with ballsout in that I think being a ‘fan’ just requires you to support your team through thick and thin, and the nature of being a poster on ERE requires constructive, positive debate, but it’s pretty much impossible to counter his basic premise that we add up to so much less than the sum of our parts.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:13:26:00 by CoochieCoo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:13:26:00 by CoochieCoo.
Quote:Optimist
That Montpellier are ‘no mugs’ doesn’t need more than a cursory glance at their teamsheet to confirm. If they’d turned up and squeezed us to death / steamrollered us/ outplayed us / turned up the heat with their world-class bench that would have been salutary but acceptable. They didn’t do any of those things. We blew it. We played really brightly for 10 minutes - both Zach and Ant throwing passes when both would normally take contact. Then we stopped playing for 70 minutes and reverted to absolutely nothing more than pick-and-go and box-kicks.
Summed up perfectly.
Quote:joethefanatic
Which rather suggests we're actually a pretty good team who played poorly in a one off game
We play poorly constantly, how can you say it was a one off game. In no universe are we a "pretty good team". We have an excellent set of individual players, and it's that individual class that makes things happen on occasion, but we couldn't be less of a cohesive 'team' if we tried. Those 70 minutes were cringeworthy. But it always happens. As soon as we're in front on the scoreboard, we stop playing.
It's not the fact that we lost a million lineouts, or the fact that we didn't stick our heads up and change tactics, or how we couldn't go 20 seconds without losing the ball (agaaain).... this was a golden opportunity to finally, FINALLY amount to something and win a trophy, Zebre, London Irish at home, Montpellier at home, final at Twickenham against a team we've beaten often in recent years.
And we blew it. Again.
Just as well Montpellier didn't ''turn up'' as commented then?
Do wonder if Hatley/Hooper et al also thought that Montpellier wouldn't turn up so no need to get over excited in training lads. So disappointing which is why I am moaning again ........................
"What do they do all week"?!!!
Do wonder if Hatley/Hooper et al also thought that Montpellier wouldn't turn up so no need to get over excited in training lads. So disappointing which is why I am moaning again ........................
"What do they do all week"?!!!
Quote:Optimist
I take issue with ballsout in that I think being a ‘fan’ just requires you to support your team through thick and thin
I think he's whatever the opposite of a fairweather supporter is (foul weather supporter?), in that he's silent whenever the team are doing well, but most vocal when they're not.
It's strange. You'd think even the most ardent doom-merchant could raise a glass when they win, even if ultimately we are less than the sum of our parts.
Quote:Optimist
That Bath are ‘a pretty good team who played poorly’ doesn’t need more than a cursory glance at the teamsheet to confirm. We have 3 nailed-on Lions ffs. But it has happened too often to be written off as a bad day at the office. I take issue with ballsout in that I think being a ‘fan’ just requires you to support your team through thick and thin, and the nature of being a poster on ERE requires constructive, positive debate, but it’s pretty much impossible to counter his basic premise that we add up to so much less than the sum of our parts.
I could be missing the obvious but who is the third nailed on lion after Faletua and Watson. I really can't think of one. I think we kid ourselves with this feeling that we have a team of superstars. If you grouped players into world class (lions or equivalent), current internationals, good prem/ex-internationals and squad players I bet we are pretty similar to every other squad bar Bristol who have more stars and Worcester who have less.
We are a mid table team and clearly need to aim higher. But squad wise we are comparable to quins, Northampton, Leicester, sale, London Irish, Gloucester etc. We are above some and below others but there's really not a great deal of difference in any of those squads and all can beat each other. In that regard the salary cap clearly works.
Sam Underhill surely!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:WellyBathChief
I could be missing the obvious but who is the third nailed on lion after Faletau and Watson. I really can't think of one.
Not 'nailed on' but I would guess Underhill? Possibly Chudley in with a shout?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:WellyBathChief
I could be missing the obvious but who is the third nailed on lion after Faletau and Watson. I really can't think of one.
Not 'nailed on' but I would guess Underhill? Possibly Chudley in with a shout?
I guess Opti probably means underhill but personally I'd only think a 20-30% chance of going if that. Chudley? Are you thinking of someone else as I'll bet my house on Chudley not going on tour.
Sorry that was tongue in cheek, must remember to #bekind.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:WellyBathChiefQuote:Optimist
That Bath are ‘a pretty good team who played poorly’ doesn’t need more than a cursory glance at the teamsheet to confirm. We have 3 nailed-on Lions ffs. But it has happened too often to be written off as a bad day at the office. I take issue with ballsout in that I think being a ‘fan’ just requires you to support your team through thick and thin, and the nature of being a poster on ERE requires constructive, positive debate, but it’s pretty much impossible to counter his basic premise that we add up to so much less than the sum of our parts.
I could be missing the obvious but who is the third nailed on lion after Faletua and Watson. I really can't think of one. I think we kid ourselves with this feeling that we have a team of superstars. If you grouped players into world class (lions or equivalent), current internationals, good prem/ex-internationals and squad players I bet we are pretty similar to every other squad bar Bristol who have more stars and Worcester who have less.
We are a mid table team and clearly need to aim higher. But squad wise we are comparable to quins, Northampton, Leicester, sale, London Irish, Gloucester etc. We are above some and below others but there's really not a great deal of difference in any of those squads and all can beat each other. In that regard the salary cap clearly works.
Nine internationals in our starting XV isn't enough for you? Eleven with Beno and Priestland in.
Quote:WellyBathChiefQuote:BathMatt53Quote:WellyBathChief
I could be missing the obvious but who is the third nailed on lion after Faletau and Watson. I really can't think of one.
Not 'nailed on' but I would guess Underhill? Possibly Chudley in with a shout?
I guess Opti probably means underhill but personally I'd only think a 20-30% chance of going if that. Chudley? Are you thinking of someone else as I'll bet my house on Chudley not going on tour.
I think Underhill has a much higher chance than that, he has a tackle technique that almost guarantees he stays on the pitch and he knocks people back. Gatland selects on a specific rôle in terms of stopping power he is top of the list, he will select other players to do the ball carrying etc.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:WellyBathChiefQuote:BathMatt53Quote:WellyBathChief
I could be missing the obvious but who is the third nailed on lion after Faletau and Watson. I really can't think of one.
Not 'nailed on' but I would guess Underhill? Possibly Chudley in with a shout?
I guess Opti probably means underhill but personally I'd only think a 20-30% chance of going if that. Chudley? Are you thinking of someone else as I'll bet my house on Chudley not going on tour.
I think Underhill has a much higher chance than that, he has a tackle technique that almost guarantees he stays on the pitch and he knocks people back. Gatland selects on a specific rôle in terms of stopping power he is top of the list, he will select other players to do the ball carrying etc.
I can't see Underhill making it. Cementhead will pick Curry and Tipuric ahead of him.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:11:37:37 by malco.
Underhill is who I meant - although missing the 6Ns means he's not actually nailed-on, and although he's been good for us, he has by nobody's estimation outplayed Miles Read. That's a compliment to Read, rather than a slight to SU, but the difficulty for Gatland is gauging how many players he can take on reputation not form.
And JJ really, really should be a nailed-on Lion. If he'd taken himself off to another club 2 years ago when he started to lose his hold on his England place, maybe he would be.
I wonder if Beno has a chance of going? He just might create a different scrummaging challenge to the Boks, and he'd be one hell of a tourist, assuming that Marler is staying at home.
And JJ really, really should be a nailed-on Lion. If he'd taken himself off to another club 2 years ago when he started to lose his hold on his England place, maybe he would be.
I wonder if Beno has a chance of going? He just might create a different scrummaging challenge to the Boks, and he'd be one hell of a tourist, assuming that Marler is staying at home.
I hope that I am wrong, but I also cannot see Sam Underhill being selected for the Lions. I think players like Tipuric and Hamish Watson will get the nod over him.
Some thoughts a few days after
1. I have no idea if Dempsey is a top class backs coach or not but what was perfectly evident from Saturday night is that on match day his influence doesn't even stretch to waterboy duties. Surely someone in his role with his background and experience both playing and coaching should be a part of a close hub to talk about what is working in the game and what needs to be done?
2. My playing days at a decent level are many blue moons gone but watching the serial pick n dies in the red zone when they were a man down the old 10 in me was screaming/thinking just give it to Bailey [or Redpath if OB not yet trusted], then out to 12 with the10 receiving on the wrap around behind, fast hands to 13 and it is 3 on one. That's not a difficult move and with the likes of JJ, on fire Watson and Muir outside who had already beaten his winger twice that was an open goal. I can only think that at no point in the preceding week had they done anything like that in training. The theory of evolution has a thing to say about organisms that don't try new things then learn, develop and adapt to meet challenges and threats
3. I can understand Bailey feeling not able to demand the ball but golly why do the likes of Redpath, Watson and JJ appear to put up with such blinkered game play when "just give us one go, that's all we ask" must have been going through their heads? Will Cipriana change this because he sure won't meekly put up with it?
1. I have no idea if Dempsey is a top class backs coach or not but what was perfectly evident from Saturday night is that on match day his influence doesn't even stretch to waterboy duties. Surely someone in his role with his background and experience both playing and coaching should be a part of a close hub to talk about what is working in the game and what needs to be done?
2. My playing days at a decent level are many blue moons gone but watching the serial pick n dies in the red zone when they were a man down the old 10 in me was screaming/thinking just give it to Bailey [or Redpath if OB not yet trusted], then out to 12 with the10 receiving on the wrap around behind, fast hands to 13 and it is 3 on one. That's not a difficult move and with the likes of JJ, on fire Watson and Muir outside who had already beaten his winger twice that was an open goal. I can only think that at no point in the preceding week had they done anything like that in training. The theory of evolution has a thing to say about organisms that don't try new things then learn, develop and adapt to meet challenges and threats
3. I can understand Bailey feeling not able to demand the ball but golly why do the likes of Redpath, Watson and JJ appear to put up with such blinkered game play when "just give us one go, that's all we ask" must have been going through their heads? Will Cipriana change this because he sure won't meekly put up with it?
"The disappointment's real, so you have to feel it. You can't just move on.”
stuart hooper’s breast beating doesnt do it for me. he does it so often. why did he send a team out to do battle against montpellier with a quiver containing just one arrow. pick and go? he was negligent.
so successful has the flopover become for bath in recent times that it has become the team’s default method of scoring (other than rhys’ boot). when it doesn't work, as it didnt vs the french, we have no plan B. i rejoiced the other week to see stooke, reid and spencer combine in scoring an open field try. it was a breath of fresh air.
ben coles described bath’s performance in the last 20 minutes as ‘painful to watch’. the team had no idea what they were trying to do. the fact that the french were only 6 points ahead for most of the second half exposed bath’s incompetence. why didn’t we kick a few penalties?
charlie ewels doesn’t come across as a very clever guy. even though the lineout wasn’t working he repeatedly made the same calls. ewels doesn’t seem to be able to think on his feet. he has previous for this.
and who’s idea was it to select jack walker for this game instead of du toit? walker has proven time and again that he can’t hit a barn door when under red zone pressure. it’s true tom dunn wasn’t having a great day (understandable given his period of enforced absence) but he gives so much more around the field than walker. he should have stayed on the field and bath should have modified their throws/ line out numbers. they did after all have four jumpers to choose from.
but even if the lineout had worked would it have changed the result? we would have just trundled more ball up.
i read in the week that jj is now describing himself as a facilitator/ distributor not a strike runner. that explains why we havent seen anything remotely like strike running from him for a very long time. but don’t we have a facilitator/ distributor already in redpath? what is the point of both of them doing the same role? who is going to get the ball over the gain line?
as for AW, he is getting loads of plaudits these days tho i don’t know why. yes he is a safe pair of hands, yes he beats the first four tacklers running the ball back, but so what? those guys are just fatties he runs around. does he make any serious ground? does he sat up any chances, distribute to his winger, threaten the oppo line? is he scoring any tries? no. he has become mike brown. run it back into traffic, go to ground and hope he doesn’t get pinged. what a waste for our best strike runner!
put ant back on the wing, bring in some beef at 13- maybe big joe might do a job (the welsh are doing something similar with george north).
our tight-five-heavy coaching team is not working. out backs have no idea. they have been frozen out. we are not going to win any silverware with hooper’s impoverished flopover game plan.
stuart hooper’s breast beating doesnt do it for me. he does it so often. why did he send a team out to do battle against montpellier with a quiver containing just one arrow. pick and go? he was negligent.
so successful has the flopover become for bath in recent times that it has become the team’s default method of scoring (other than rhys’ boot). when it doesn't work, as it didnt vs the french, we have no plan B. i rejoiced the other week to see stooke, reid and spencer combine in scoring an open field try. it was a breath of fresh air.
ben coles described bath’s performance in the last 20 minutes as ‘painful to watch’. the team had no idea what they were trying to do. the fact that the french were only 6 points ahead for most of the second half exposed bath’s incompetence. why didn’t we kick a few penalties?
charlie ewels doesn’t come across as a very clever guy. even though the lineout wasn’t working he repeatedly made the same calls. ewels doesn’t seem to be able to think on his feet. he has previous for this.
and who’s idea was it to select jack walker for this game instead of du toit? walker has proven time and again that he can’t hit a barn door when under red zone pressure. it’s true tom dunn wasn’t having a great day (understandable given his period of enforced absence) but he gives so much more around the field than walker. he should have stayed on the field and bath should have modified their throws/ line out numbers. they did after all have four jumpers to choose from.
but even if the lineout had worked would it have changed the result? we would have just trundled more ball up.
i read in the week that jj is now describing himself as a facilitator/ distributor not a strike runner. that explains why we havent seen anything remotely like strike running from him for a very long time. but don’t we have a facilitator/ distributor already in redpath? what is the point of both of them doing the same role? who is going to get the ball over the gain line?
as for AW, he is getting loads of plaudits these days tho i don’t know why. yes he is a safe pair of hands, yes he beats the first four tacklers running the ball back, but so what? those guys are just fatties he runs around. does he make any serious ground? does he sat up any chances, distribute to his winger, threaten the oppo line? is he scoring any tries? no. he has become mike brown. run it back into traffic, go to ground and hope he doesn’t get pinged. what a waste for our best strike runner!
put ant back on the wing, bring in some beef at 13- maybe big joe might do a job (the welsh are doing something similar with george north).
our tight-five-heavy coaching team is not working. out backs have no idea. they have been frozen out. we are not going to win any silverware with hooper’s impoverished flopover game plan.
Quote:gaz59
the old 10 in me was screaming/thinking just give it to Bailey [or Redpath if OB not yet trusted], then out to 12 with the10 receiving on the wrap around behind, fast hands to 13 and it is 3 on one. That's not a difficult move and with the likes of JJ, on fire Watson and Muir outside who had already beaten his winger twice that was an open goal.
I think that even that it too complicated for that situation.
Either:
a) take the scrum with them a porp down and either squeeze them for more pens / yellows / pen try or at least tie them in; or
b) give JC a big run up and give him a fairly short and flat ball from 5 yards out given that all of their defence was crowded around the breakdown. Nobody would have stopped him from there with his size and speed.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I think if TDG had been fit we would have seen Watson on the wing. This gives our attack better variation and balance.
Also I think Spencer was between a rock and a hard place if he gets fed up with the pick and flop and spins it wide and we lose it then he “shouldn’t have done it wasting all the forwards efforts” and if he doesn’t “ well he should have done “. I don’t think the ref helped he wasn’t clearly calling advantage still live or over. The Montpelier defence although very organised were permanently off side and tackling the non carrying players. This should have been dealt with much sooner instead of letting it trundle on probably so the ref didn’t have to make a decision.
Not that I think we deserved to win but we have the players we have at the moment and on the day not enough of them had a good game.. Add Beno TDG and Rhys and it could all,have been so different.
Also I think Spencer was between a rock and a hard place if he gets fed up with the pick and flop and spins it wide and we lose it then he “shouldn’t have done it wasting all the forwards efforts” and if he doesn’t “ well he should have done “. I don’t think the ref helped he wasn’t clearly calling advantage still live or over. The Montpelier defence although very organised were permanently off side and tackling the non carrying players. This should have been dealt with much sooner instead of letting it trundle on probably so the ref didn’t have to make a decision.
Not that I think we deserved to win but we have the players we have at the moment and on the day not enough of them had a good game.. Add Beno TDG and Rhys and it could all,have been so different.
Quote:TG Kesmo
Also I think Spencer was between a rock and a hard place if he gets fed up with the pick and flop and spins it wide and we lose it then he “shouldn’t have done it wasting all the forwards efforts” and if he doesn’t
My single greatest bugbear. Commentators who say, 'they have to score now' when the forwards finally deign to allow the ball into the backs' hands. They don't 'have to score' any more or any less than the forwards did.
And gaz - as you'd expect I assume - I am 100% with you on points 1-3.
It was just incredible that, on a pitch that is 65-metres wide, the entirety of our attacking width was about 5 metres.
Haven't posted in a while. After Saturday I don't think I felt more deflated and disappointed after a game in a long time, the stats and the issues are all there to see so won't dwell on those. I just hope after this defeat it acts as a watershed moment for the squad and coaching staff that this hurts so much they never let it happen again.
The squad and coaches need to look each other in the eye and say this is where we need to improve and accept they are not good enough as a group at this time. If they can't do that, then I don't see how we improve or move onward and upwards.
"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"
The squad and coaches need to look each other in the eye and say this is where we need to improve and accept they are not good enough as a group at this time. If they can't do that, then I don't see how we improve or move onward and upwards.
"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"
When Exeter conspired to lose to us in the final play at Sandy Park a number of years ago, it was a watershed moment for them. From that October onwards they didn't lose another Premiership game and lifted the trophy in May.
Let Saturday's shambles be a watershed moment for us.
(I won't hold my breath)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:13:46:59 by ballsout.
Let Saturday's shambles be a watershed moment for us.
(I won't hold my breath)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:13:46:59 by ballsout.
I missed it and based on the comments here, I cant be bothered to watch it. Sounds like after spending this season perfecting the Exeter bellyflop at which we have become pretty good, there was no game management to try something different when it wasn't working. I just can't understand how that happens. Is it some form of group stupidity or is it the 'leaders' on the pitch refusing to countenance a different approach. I really don't get it, the clock is ticking down and nothing changes, there are no second chances here.
We were in their 22 so regularly, with so much time left on the clock, that it would have been sensible tactics just to vary it for the sake of sowing some doubt in their minds as to where they would have to defend should they find themselves in that position later on. In the end it felt as though every Montpellier player outside of the 5-metre pick and go gate could have pulled up a deckchair and watched.
Quote:Optimist
We were in their 22 so regularly, with so much time left on the clock, that it would have been sensible tactics just to vary it for the sake of sowing some doubt in their minds as to where they would have to defend should they find themselves in that position later on.
Not to mention the fact that Bath had a few pen advantages. Why continue to bash away blindly eating up time when you can have a shot to nothing?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:malcoQuote:shipwreckedQuote:WellyBathChiefQuote:BathMatt53Quote:WellyBathChief
I could be missing the obvious but who is the third nailed on lion after Faletau and Watson. I really can't think of one.
Not 'nailed on' but I would guess Underhill? Possibly Chudley in with a shout?
I guess Opti probably means underhill but personally I'd only think a 20-30% chance of going if that. Chudley? Are you thinking of someone else as I'll bet my house on Chudley not going on tour.
I think Underhill has a much higher chance than that, he has a tackle technique that almost guarantees he stays on the pitch and he knocks people back. Gatland selects on a specific rôle in terms of stopping power he is top of the list, he will select other players to do the ball carrying etc.
I can't see Underhill making it. Cementhead will pick Curry and Tipuric ahead of him.
I will be gobsmacked if Underhill is anywhere near being selected - if picked on form you would think the order will be Hamish Watson, Curry, Tipuric and Van der Flier then Underhill.
We all know Gatland is obsessed with size, weight and power and Wales rather than ability so it we will have to see.
Ali
If power & weight are deciders, Watson comes bottom of that list, with Navidi to consider too.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:17:08:23 by P G Tips.
If power & weight are deciders, Watson comes bottom of that list, with Navidi to consider too.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:04:17:08:23 by P G Tips.
Quote:P G Tips
Ali
If power & weight are deciders, Watson comes bottom of that list, with Navidi to consider too.
Sorry PG
That was my point if it were down to pure form and performance then Hamish Watson would be nailed on, however Gatland goes for power, size and weight NOT form. Apologies for the confusion
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:gaz59
the old 10 in me was screaming/thinking just give it to Bailey [or Redpath if OB not yet trusted], then out to 12 with the10 receiving on the wrap around behind, fast hands to 13 and it is 3 on one. That's not a difficult move and with the likes of JJ, on fire Watson and Muir outside who had already beaten his winger twice that was an open goal.
I think that even that it too complicated for that situation.
Either:
a) take the scrum with them a porp down and either squeeze them for more pens / yellows / pen try or at least tie them in; or
b) give JC a big run up and give him a fairly short and flat ball from 5 yards out given that all of their defence was crowded around the breakdown. Nobody would have stopped him from there with his size and speed.
I don't think we were sufficiently on top in the scrum to go for a) and inevitably all it would have led to would have been Mercer picking from base and getting stopped a metre from line then repeat pick n die ad nauseum
But agree JC on the crash one out from first receiver would probably have been sufficient or Watson arcing around the 13 channel or cross kick to Muir with the pen advantage or blooky anything other than the dire headless stuff we churned out
Did they honestly not practise one single variation in training in the week before? Because if not Dempsey should be seeking a redundancy payout
Perhaps we should retire the 11 and 14 shirts and just go straight to 16 and 17? Seems the only time our backs get involved in a try scoring move is when they join a rolling maul
Ok, if you look at the last 3 games that we won and listen to what the Man of the Match says (usually Mercer) or the coach - they all commend the team on 'sticking to their system' - ie NOT going away from the script when, for a while, the opposition are on top. I presume that this is drummed into them - keep banging away at an individual point and it will, inevitably, weaken over the course of the game.
Montpellier outthought Bath. they dismantled the lineout - one of Baths strengths this season - and the focus of two of Baths captains on the pitch. And they perfected a counter to the Bath pick and drive, which involves the ball carrier staying on his feet and using his leg drive/being pushed over to score.
A cup game, being a different beast to a league game, means maybe that there is more incentive to play the whole 80. In a league game, if Stuart keeps coming at you you may decide that its better to save your energy for Worcester next week. A cup game - its all or nothing. (Disclaimer - speaking as someone who has never, ever, been anywhere this level in any form of sport - I'm probably talking rubbish here).
OBinFiji
Montpellier outthought Bath. they dismantled the lineout - one of Baths strengths this season - and the focus of two of Baths captains on the pitch. And they perfected a counter to the Bath pick and drive, which involves the ball carrier staying on his feet and using his leg drive/being pushed over to score.
A cup game, being a different beast to a league game, means maybe that there is more incentive to play the whole 80. In a league game, if Stuart keeps coming at you you may decide that its better to save your energy for Worcester next week. A cup game - its all or nothing. (Disclaimer - speaking as someone who has never, ever, been anywhere this level in any form of sport - I'm probably talking rubbish here).
OBinFiji
Well I don't know if this is a consolation but we were beaten by the winners of the Challenge Cup with Leicester losing by a point 17-18.
All French winners in Europe, Tigers will wonder how they lost that game though!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
All French winners in Europe, Tigers will wonder how they lost that game though!
Montpellier were lucky having only to face us & Leicester which was quite an easy path to a cup, though they made heavy weather if it & are no great shakes themselves.
The Tigs made a better fist of it than we did but the lack of ambition they showed in the last 10 minutes was pretty disappointing. George Ford is a brilliant 10, so the apparent lack of a Plan B was very marked. It reminded me of us!
Incudentally, are there any South African rugby players actually left in South Africa?
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:22:00:53:48 by joethefanatic.
Incudentally, are there any South African rugby players actually left in South Africa?
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:22:00:53:48 by joethefanatic.
Leicester had a very dominant driving maul from the lineout, but stopped using it in the last 15 minutes.....
They only won the first yellow card period 7-3, and the second was i think 0-0.
They only won the first yellow card period 7-3, and the second was i think 0-0.
Quote:Dorset Boy
Leicester had a very dominant driving maul from the lineout, but stopped using it in the last 15 minutes.....
They only won the first yellow card period 7-3, and the second was i think 0-0.
Their coach said they abandoned competing for the ball in the maul and just concentrated on stopping the drive in the second half, seemed to work.
Fords kicking was excellent, however, it was all very obvious what was going to happen so more easily countered. I think that is why I'd favour Smith with his little darting runs.
In the last quarter I thought I was watching Wimbledon....talk about boring. leicester should have won that easily but just stopped playing in the last 15 minutes and hoofed the ball in the air. Bit like watching England (or Bath)
If I supported Leicester, I think I would be very proud of the effort of my team but I might be asking a few questions of the coaches regarding ambition to grasp the game and win it. Montpellier are certainly not invincible but Tigers just continued to hoof the ball into the air.
Aimless kicking from hand was a common gripe for many on ere about Ford in his last season with us
Given his, undoubted excellence with ball in hand I just despair at this
Given his, undoubted excellence with ball in hand I just despair at this
Quote:shipwrecked
Fords kicking was excellent.
It really wasn't.
And I say that as a huge George Ford fan.
Quote:ballsoutQuote:shipwrecked
Fords kicking was excellent.
It really wasn't.
And I say that as a huge George Ford fan.
Bit unfair to remove the context of that BO!
Most of this thread prior to the final was us beating our team up for blowing a game we could and should have won - possibly even comfortably. It does at least show that there’s a decent team in there. The evidence suggests that it will remain that way, but I guess hope is the nature of being a fan.
Maybe I'm delusional but we could have beaten Montpellier at home, at the time they were in very similar form to Bath being bottom third of the table. We just didn't turn up on the day. Missed opportunity?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Maybe I'm delusional but we could have beaten Montpellier at home, at the time they were in very similar form to Bath being bottom third of the table. We just didn't turn up on the day. Missed opportunity?
Definitely. But we lost to Montelpellier in the same way the Tigs did. Not enough ambition.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:shipwrecked
Maybe I'm delusional but we could have beaten Montpellier at home, at the time they were in very similar form to Bath being bottom third of the table. We just didn't turn up on the day. Missed opportunity?
Definitely. But we lost to Montelpellier in the same way the Tigs did. Not enough ambition.
Not sure that it is ambition we lack but rather confidence to do what is needed. We could envisage it but the fear of failure prevents us from taking the positive steps.
Quote:shipwrecked
Maybe I'm delusional but we could have beaten Montpellier at home, at the time they were in very similar form to Bath being bottom third of the table. We just didn't turn up on the day. Missed opportunity?
Delusional? That's what literally everyone on here was saying at the time. How we threw away a very winnable game.
Quote:ballsoutQuote:shipwrecked
Maybe I'm delusional but we could have beaten Montpellier at home, at the time they were in very similar form to Bath being bottom third of the table. We just didn't turn up on the day. Missed opportunity?
Delusional? That's what literally everyone on here was saying at the time. How we threw away a very winnable game.
Yep, not a case of "could have" It was certainly a "should have"
Failing to score a second try in first quarter was a major error. That would have sunk their confidence at a time they were struggling for any kind of cohesion or teamwork. Then blowing all those 3 metre pick n dies when we had man advantage was just criminal
Thing is though I'm not confident we would have gone on to best Tiggers. They would have out muscled us up front and Ford would have pulled the kicking strings to much better effect
Rugby punditry is very strange. Tigers kept it tight, didn’t play a lot of rugby and they are getting a very favourable press. Bottom line is they lost. Teams that go out and play too much rugby but lose get slated. It’s the same syndrome that means forwards can have 20 goes at a pick and drive or a rolling maul and stuff up 4 times out of 5, but the minute the backs ask for the ball the commentary team will say ‘well they have to score now’.
The whole game needs a mindset reset.
The whole game needs a mindset reset.
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