Bath
PREDATOR OR PANDEMIC? LEICESTER TIGERS v BATH
Redpath: key
By PG Tips
December 30 2020
It is hard to tell whether predators or the pandemic hold the greater threat for Bath this weekend. Hosts Leicester Tigers may be stuck near the bottom of the Premiership table, but amid early signs of a Borthwick driven revival they have been scoring freely at home. Meanwhile, both clubs have been forced to forfeit recent fixtures due to Covid 19 infections. If the match goes ahead, how strong will the respective teams be and how much will last weekend’s cancellations have impacted their preparations?
All Premiership teams were due to be tested early this week to determine whether fixtures can be staged. Coaching teams will be waiting for the results of those tests before deciding on their squads.
Tigers began the Premiership season with a bang, notching 4 tries in battering Gloucester 38-15 at Welford Road. That has been their only domestic win so far, but their European form shows developing strength in depth: 2 wins from 2 with 9 league points from a possible 10. A home tie against old rivals is all the motivation they need to charge into the New Year Premiership campaign. What better opportunity to prove their claws are sharpening and that charge is gaining momentum?
Steve Borthwick is building a pack aiming to roar like the Tigers of old. The all international front row is a fierce mix of mature prowlers Youngs and Cole, supported by scrapping cub Genge. Behind them a choice from Lavanini, Green and Wells aided by South African backrowers Liebenberg and Wiese gives them plenty of heft and grunt. Bath will need to look to their laurels and work extremely hard in preparation if they are to enjoy the forward dominance their game depends on. With Ben Youngs or Richard Wigglesworth, two of England’s biggest proponents of the box kick, at scrum half the stage seems set for 9 man rugby. Tigers could though spring a surprise as they did against both Gloucester and Brive. Despite the departures of Tuilagi and May, they are well equipped with adventure among the backs. George Ford is still one of the best at getting a three-quarter line moving and outside him the home side can chose from internationals Scott of Scotland, Moroni of Argentina, Nadolo and Muimurivalu of Fiji, plus the promise of George Worth and the occasionally spellbinding Harry Potter. They will be seeking not just a second home Premiership win, but a bonus point to launch them up the table.
Bath may wish to spring a surprise or two of their own. Both Newcastle and Scarlets won by neutering the game they expected Bath to play. The Falcons took on the Blue, Black and White up front while the Welshmen made a mess of Bath’s territorial game by attacking from deep, exposing gaps and lack of cohesion in the defence. Yet, in those matches and in less than ideal circumstances at Worcester, Bath grabbed some fine tries by early distribution and slick combined handling between forwards and backs. Bath failed to snatch the win at the last against Scarlets because the release to the backs came too late and too close to the breakdown. The linkage between units should be a major part of this week’s preparations.
Rhys Priestland could be recovered from his concussion to start, but the key midfield man could well be Cameron Redpath, whose distribution and direction, whether from 10 or 12, is growing ever more fluent. He in the eyes of many fans (including this one) is the sound choice at 12; his guile, vision and pace preferred to Matavesi’s strength and enthusiasm. Ruaridh McConnochie’s recent form has rightly rekindled interest from Eddie Jones, while Semesa Rokodoguni has rediscovered both appetite and the tryline. With Anthony Watson, Jonathan Joseph and Tom de Glanville all looking sharp recently, Bath can match and outshine Tigers in attack. Selection may still be impacted by Bath’s pre -Christmas Covid cases, but many will be hoping that Orlando Bailey will soon be given a chance to earn his stripes.
For these bright stars to shine the forwards must gain the edge, not just in power, but in tempo. If, as seems likely, there is parity up front in the set piece, Bath can expose their hosts by early pounce at the breakdown and eager jackalling. Sam Underhill is the lead here, often ably assisted by Dunn, McNally and Obano. Ball in hand, the forwards can take the game to Leicester in the open as well as close quarter drive, so the coaches will be hoping Taulupe Faletau is fit and that Zach Mercer can continue his fine recent running and handling form.
To win Bath will need not only the muscularity and speed, but also the ferocity of the big beast of the jungle. Clashes between the two clubs are noted for intensity and, with two recently caged beasts ready to roar, this should be no exception. Will it be Welford woe or visitors victorious for Bath? We shall see.
Possible Teams:
Bath:
Obano, Dunn, Stuart, Ewels (Capt.), McNally,Mercer, Underhill, Faletau. Spencer, Priestland. McConnochie, Redpath, Joseph, Rokodoguni. Watson.
Replacements: Schoeman, Batty, Judge, Stooke, Bayliss. Chudley, Matavesi, Cokanasiga.
Leicester Tigers:
Genge, Youngs, Cole, Lavanini,Green, Wiese, Liebenberg, Taufua. Youngs, Ford (Capt.). Potter, Scott, Moroni, Nadolo. Worth.
Replacements: Gigena, Mamukashvili, Heyes, Wells, Wallace. Wigglesworth, Henry, Van Wyk.
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StumbleuponPREDATOR OR PANDEMIC? LEICESTER TIGERS v BATH. TEAM'S UP!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 30/12/2020 14:31
30/12/2020 14:31
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:05:18:54:23 by P G Tips.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:05:18:54:23 by P G Tips.
Close - but the form full back is Freddie Steward, Worth has hardly featured.
Taute is preferred at 13 and it is probably a toss up between Green and Wells, with Wells a slight fav.
You are probably correct on the back row but I would prefer an out and out 7 so Reffel for me.
Murrimurivali will feature somewhere in the 23.
Taute is preferred at 13 and it is probably a toss up between Green and Wells, with Wells a slight fav.
You are probably correct on the back row but I would prefer an out and out 7 so Reffel for me.
Murrimurivali will feature somewhere in the 23.
It’s been announced that Worcester v Quins is off so I assume that means we’re on
So that's the Warriors off the bottom of the table and, if I remember correctly, Glaws bottom.
Hmmm, early days but I'm not sure the relegation of any team can really be justified this season. All too arbitrary.
Hmmm, early days but I'm not sure the relegation of any team can really be justified this season. All too arbitrary.
Quote:callmeMrTibbs
So that's the Warriors off the bottom of the table and, if I remember correctly, Glaws bottom.
Hmmm, early days but I'm not sure the relegation of any team can really be justified this season. All too arbitrary.
Only if Gloucester don't win.
Quote:tigerburnie
Wayne Barnes is "Sir" for the match
Oh dear, it will be all George, Charlie and Ellis with a bit of "leave it Sam" coaching thrown in. Congratulations on win number 2 TB, I've no doubt we will see loads of these
for slow teleporting away from impossible positions.
Thanks PG Tips, let’s hope we get a game. Hopefully our upward trajectory will continue, let’s face it we couldn’t get much worse than the last 2 seasons. I’ll be interested to see the back row, suspect 6,7,8 liebenberg, Taufua, Wiese with Reffel on bench. Leatigaga on bench, Gigena unavailable
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:12:30:22:26:06 by Stopsy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:12:30:22:26:06 by Stopsy.
Fingers crossed this match will go ahead and indeed the season - I see there is a growing debate as to whether the KissBall Premiership will be able to continue.
Personally I think Mike Williams will be our 6 - he will be chomping at the bit to be back at Welford Rd and is a proper enforcer, he does a lot of unsung work and is one of the few playing well this season.
If the game goes ahead I think we can guarantee a couple of things - the endless niggle and chat from Genge and Lavanini getting sin binned.
I have been impressed with Tigers this year particularly in the backs and we will have our work cut out... Definitely play Roko and RMC on the wings both of handling Nadolo.
Personally I think Mike Williams will be our 6 - he will be chomping at the bit to be back at Welford Rd and is a proper enforcer, he does a lot of unsung work and is one of the few playing well this season.
If the game goes ahead I think we can guarantee a couple of things - the endless niggle and chat from Genge and Lavanini getting sin binned.
I have been impressed with Tigers this year particularly in the backs and we will have our work cut out... Definitely play Roko and RMC on the wings both of handling Nadolo.
Decent 23 potentially. Rumour batty long term injured, hope that is wrong.
That leic pack looks decent and as you say borthers will be keen to build a dominant front 5.
That leic pack looks decent and as you say borthers will be keen to build a dominant front 5.
Is de glanville available again? Was it a 2 match ban as did the cancelled games count?
Again a far superior match preview from PG Tips than “press notes” put out by Bath [www.bathrugby.com]
Although interesting to hear about the experience the 3 7s players bring to the team I wonder if it is relevant to this match, guess we’ll find out when the team is announced!
Although interesting to hear about the experience the 3 7s players bring to the team I wonder if it is relevant to this match, guess we’ll find out when the team is announced!
Quote:You’d hope those matches count, Joe Marler and Manu Tuilagi’s bans from the 6N were deemed complete during lock down. [www.independent.co.uk]charlieboa
Is de glanville available again? Was it a 2 match ban as did the cancelled games count?
The cancelled games should also be able to count as the rest weeks for the England players I’d imagine.
“Rumour batty long term injured, hope that is wrong”
Not sure about long term, but he posted a photo on twitter of a rather large scar having just had the staples removed from the top of his spine
Not sure about long term, but he posted a photo on twitter of a rather large scar having just had the staples removed from the top of his spine
Fingers crossed that is just a pre planned procedure and isnt long term.
Faletau at 6 for Mercer at 8 is interesting, though I guess they will swap at times.
A few Tigers including Borthers not attending - [www.leicestertigers.com]
A few Tigers including Borthers not attending - [www.leicestertigers.com]
BATH RUGBY SIDE TO FACE LEICESTER TIGERS
15. Anthony Watson, 14. Semesa Rokoduguni, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Ruaridh McConnochie, 10. Rhys Priestland, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Beno Obano, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels (C), 6. Taulupe Faletau, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
REPLACEMENTS
16. Jack Walker, 17. Juan Schoeman, 18. Christian Judge, 19. Elliott Stooke, 20. Josh Bayliss, 21. Miles Reid, 22. Will Chudley, 23. Josh Matavesi
LEICESTER TIGERS SIDE TO FACE BATH RUGBY
15. Freddie Steward, 14. Kobus van Wyk, 13. Jaco Taute, 12. Matt Scott, 11. Nemani Nadolo, 10. George Ford, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ellis Genge, 2. Tom Youngs (c), 3. Dan Cole, 4. Calum Green, 5. George Martin, 6. George Martin, 7. Hanro Liebenberg, 8. Jasper Wiese
REPLACEMENTS
16. Charlie Clare, 17. Nephi Leatigaga, 18. Joe Heyes, 19. Cameron Henderson, 20. Luke Wallace, 21. Jack van Poortvliet, 22. Zack Henry, 23. Kini Murimurivalu
15. Anthony Watson, 14. Semesa Rokoduguni, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Ruaridh McConnochie, 10. Rhys Priestland, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Beno Obano, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels (C), 6. Taulupe Faletau, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
REPLACEMENTS
16. Jack Walker, 17. Juan Schoeman, 18. Christian Judge, 19. Elliott Stooke, 20. Josh Bayliss, 21. Miles Reid, 22. Will Chudley, 23. Josh Matavesi
LEICESTER TIGERS SIDE TO FACE BATH RUGBY
15. Freddie Steward, 14. Kobus van Wyk, 13. Jaco Taute, 12. Matt Scott, 11. Nemani Nadolo, 10. George Ford, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Ellis Genge, 2. Tom Youngs (c), 3. Dan Cole, 4. Calum Green, 5. George Martin, 6. George Martin, 7. Hanro Liebenberg, 8. Jasper Wiese
REPLACEMENTS
16. Charlie Clare, 17. Nephi Leatigaga, 18. Joe Heyes, 19. Cameron Henderson, 20. Luke Wallace, 21. Jack van Poortvliet, 22. Zack Henry, 23. Kini Murimurivalu
Thanks Rawce, I like that side a lot and a decent bench as well! Redpath at 12, Pheww!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
why does hooper always seem so utterly miserable on match press day- see bath rugby web site. he looks as if he has just had a root canal.
strong side from us on paper but we know that doesn't mean much.
it's getting near the 6N so we can't expect much from JJ.
i see big joe has finally been put out of his misery.
can toby play 6? never seen it.
strong side from us on paper but we know that doesn't mean much.
it's getting near the 6N so we can't expect much from JJ.
i see big joe has finally been put out of his misery.
can toby play 6? never seen it.
Quote:bardofavon
can toby play 6? never seen it.
I believe he has -on a Lions tour.
He has certainly said he would be willing to-to get himself and his cousin Billy Vunipola in the same team.
PG
Quote:P G Tips
George Martin's going to be busy!
PG
It's actually Calum Green at 5, according to Tigers' Offy:
[www.leicestertigers.com]
PG
Quote:bardofavon
why does hooper always seem so utterly miserable on match press day- see bath rugby web site. he looks as if he has just had a root canal.
What like Dean Richards, Steve Borthwick, Steve Diamond, Pat Lam etc.?
Incredibly strong team, but once again that means nothing when it comes to Bath.
That’s our first-choice starting XV isn’t it? Very glad to see Mercer considered a starter. Can’t ever see the benefit of a 6:2 bench split - but with that 23 we really ought to be looking at a nailed-on 5 points.
Pretty sure Faletau has played at 6 for us on a few occasions when he first joined.
Quote:P G TipsQuote:bardofavon
can toby play 6? never seen it.
I believe he has -on a Lions tour.
He has certainly said he would be willing to-to get himself and his cousin Billy Vunipola in the same team.
PG
Also for Wales to accommodate Josh Navidi I think you will find.
Sorry about the Tiger Team mix up, I just copied and pasted from our offy without checking.
No problem Rawce. The Chron and Offy should have checked!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Good looking team, WR is never easy, but no crowd will help.
COYB, we need a New Years present to get us off on the right foot in ‘21.
COYB, we need a New Years present to get us off on the right foot in ‘21.
Quote:shipwrecked
Redpath at 12, Pheww!
I will need to find something new to moan about.
Wonder what is at play re mercer at 8 and faletau at 6. Tactical for this game specifically, statement to mercer re his importance to the club?
Tbf in the absence of ellis selection at 6 is wide open.
Quote:charlieboaQuote:shipwrecked
Redpath at 12, Pheww!
I will need to find something new to moan about.
Wonder what is at play re mercer at 8 and faletau at 6. Tactical for this game specifically, statement to mercer re his importance to the club?
Tbf in the absence of ellis selection at 6 is wide open.
Mike Williams at #6 each time for me; he reminds me of Andy Beattie in his pomp and he wasn't too shabby...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Interestingly Skybet has the teams dead even, 0 points spread.
Mike Williams doesn't jackal enough for the current game (and neither does Ellis although he is one of my favorite players). For that reason until (if) the laws are changed I would have Reid or Bayliss in the back row if there was a space.
Glad TF and ZM are that way around, Mercer wasn't good at 6 earlier in the year.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Mike Williams doesn't jackal enough for the current game (and neither does Ellis although he is one of my favorite players). For that reason until (if) the laws are changed I would have Reid or Bayliss in the back row if there was a space.
Glad TF and ZM are that way around, Mercer wasn't good at 6 earlier in the year.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I think bookies have that about right. Leic have enough quality to cause us issues definitely. That front row will go after us (though would like to think we could handle that threat).
Agree re williams and ellis. Ellis was a shoe-in for me at 6 under old interpretations but tend to agree it lends itself to reid/bayliss now.
Mercer didnt go well at 6 as you say, so glad they are at least giving this a go. I love mercer and understand people thinking he is much better vfm but struggle to get past just how good faletau was for so long and when he gets a run injury free i think he is still v v top drawer. I love seeing his name on the teamsheet.
Agree re williams and ellis. Ellis was a shoe-in for me at 6 under old interpretations but tend to agree it lends itself to reid/bayliss now.
Mercer didnt go well at 6 as you say, so glad they are at least giving this a go. I love mercer and understand people thinking he is much better vfm but struggle to get past just how good faletau was for so long and when he gets a run injury free i think he is still v v top drawer. I love seeing his name on the teamsheet.
Quote:charlieboa
Agree re williams and ellis. Ellis was a shoe-in for me at 6 under old interpretations but tend to agree it lends itself to reid/bayliss now.
This is key for us really, I would include Faletau in that bracket as well. Underhill has got better at the jackal but we are shown up a bit by the likes of Willis. Until the laws change again of course.
Biggest issue for me at the breakdown is the penalty for not getting out of the way. Ref's interpretations are getting close to impossible sometimes!
Yes, only way around it is to naturally support and offload when a break is made, like the Hughes try for Bris yesterday (no spoilers!!). If you go to ground after a break then the ball will be lost and a pen given almost every single time. Then get a jackal specialist on your side to turn over the oppo and you have the perfect combination.
Of course the offloading game means getting players in who are really comfortable with those offloads and have good hands as well, like Zach, Ellis, TF, SU and Redpath etc. IMO Spencer has been so good because he is almost always the one on the shoulder, like Chris Ashton was in Toulon and Dupont is now for Toulouse.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Of course the offloading game means getting players in who are really comfortable with those offloads and have good hands as well, like Zach, Ellis, TF, SU and Redpath etc. IMO Spencer has been so good because he is almost always the one on the shoulder, like Chris Ashton was in Toulon and Dupont is now for Toulouse.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Borthers self isolating, can't compare notes with Hatley at the bar. Hope its restricted to management.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Bath Rugby may be a paragon of consistent and long-running underachievement, but on the ‘we are where we are’ principle, it’s comforting to see a bottom 3 of Leics, Glos, Saints!
Quote:Optimist
Bath Rugby may be a paragon of consistent and long-running underachievement, but on the ‘we are where we are’ principle, it’s comforting to see a bottom 3 of Leics, Glos, Saints!
TBF 40% of our points came from Covid. I think that most of the team below us have had to cancel a game?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Rather sad watchng BT Sport with Bayfield bigging up the Leicester v Bath match.
Might have been appropriate for his era but a match between 7 and 10 is not that big a deal!!
Might have been appropriate for his era but a match between 7 and 10 is not that big a deal!!
There's history between these two clubs, might be a while ago now, but once upon a time it was a must watch game for neutrals as well as the two sets of fans. We aren't in great shape after missing a match with the covid, but Borth's seems to have got a few of them firing, should be a good game if the weather doesn't ruin it.
"Bath team look really strong! Must be frustrating to be a fan really because with all that firepower they ought to be tearing teams to pieces, but somehow not happening."
Above taken from another clubs forum, it shows we are not the only ones left scratching our heads as to why? The difference is that non Bath supporters don't feel the pain.
That Tigers team is strong particularly in the pack, if we continue to want to pummel the opposition up front we will play into Tigers hands. Personally I just want to see us play the result will take care of itself, we all know Mr Barnes will want to continue his post refereeing career as a BT pundit on the pitch.
Come on Bath believe in yourself.
Above taken from another clubs forum, it shows we are not the only ones left scratching our heads as to why? The difference is that non Bath supporters don't feel the pain.
That Tigers team is strong particularly in the pack, if we continue to want to pummel the opposition up front we will play into Tigers hands. Personally I just want to see us play the result will take care of itself, we all know Mr Barnes will want to continue his post refereeing career as a BT pundit on the pitch.
Come on Bath believe in yourself.
Quote:Big deal for me if we get hammered after watching these games for more years than I can remember!Bath Supporter Jack
Rather sad watchng BT Sport with Bayfield bigging up the Leicester v Bath match.
Might have been appropriate for his era but a match between 7 and 10 is not that big a deal!!
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Rather sad watchng BT Sport with Bayfield bigging up the Leicester v Bath match.
Might have been appropriate for his era but a match between 7 and 10 is not that big a deal!!
While far to often in my opinion the BT crew tell the viewers during or after a game that is wasn’t very good, they always try to big it up before hand.
Quote:dcshQuote:Bath Supporter Jack
Rather sad watchng BT Sport with Bayfield bigging up the Leicester v Bath match.
Might have been appropriate for his era but a match between 7 and 10 is not that big a deal!!
While far to often in my opinion the BT crew tell the viewers during or after a game that is wasn’t very good, they always try to big it up before hand.
Might have been a big game 25 years ago, but now it’s just another game between 2 mediocre sides that have been left behind.
A game for the die hards now.
Quote:Ali1969
"Bath team look really strong! Must be frustrating to be a fan really because with all that firepower they ought to be tearing teams to pieces, but somehow not happening."
Above taken from another clubs forum, it shows we are not the only ones left scratching our heads as to why? The difference is that non Bath supporters don't feel the pain.
That Tigers team is strong particularly in the pack, if we continue to want to pummel the opposition up front we will play into Tigers hands. Personally I just want to see us play the result will take care of itself, we all know Mr Barnes will want to continue his post refereeing career as a BT pundit on the pitch.
Come on Bath believe in yourself.
Bunch of individuals, rather than a "team", that's why.
Any predictions ?
Heart says Bath by 3/5 points, Head says Tigers by 10/15points with a bonus point,
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Heart says Bath by 3/5 points, Head says Tigers by 10/15points with a bonus point,
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Possibly a few cards as well and not New Year ones !!
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Light showers and 3 degrees, not expecting the backs to be chucking the ball about, probably a lot of spilled ball, it's who wins those collisions on the floor and who's lineout functions. Expect a lot of scrums from the knockons, so it really could be down to whose pack is dominant.
Struggling in the scrums . Too many penalties
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
First time I've noticed Watson has a Lion's mini badge as well as an England flag on his chest. How long have we done that?
Making it too easy for Leicester with our poor penalty count.
Try to Leicester
13-14 38mins
Try to Leicester
13-14 38mins
Strange penalty decisions from Wayne Barnes ? 13-14
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Tigers score. 11-14 with an easy conversion to come. Bath struggling in the scrum, making gains in the loose, and showing the handling skills of a team that base their game on taking the ball above their heads in well greased oven mitts.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Strange penalty decisions from Wayne Barnes ? 13-14
Agreed - both ways.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Bath turn down two options for easy end to the half. Keep coughing up the ball and end up conceding a penalty which Ford converts.
Just plain stupid. End the half with a 4pt lead, don't mess around for 5mins and end up just 1pt ahead.
🤦
Just plain stupid. End the half with a 4pt lead, don't mess around for 5mins and end up just 1pt ahead.
🤦
"Bath turn down two options for easy end to the half. Keep coughing up the ball and end up conceding a penalty which Ford converts.
Just plain stupid. End the half with a 4pt lead, don't mess around for 5mins and end up just 1pt ahead".
My thoughts also........
Just plain stupid. End the half with a 4pt lead, don't mess around for 5mins and end up just 1pt ahead".
My thoughts also........
Yeah, we need to adapt quicker than Tigers at whatever Barnes’ interpretations are. Still a bit peeved at our 4 on 1 overlap when Scott slapped the ball down. Yes, he went for the two handed catch but he was half a meter too short. I’d have fancied Watson, JJ and Roko (plus A.N.Other) against Nandolo on the back foot any day of the week. Sort out the penalties and we should get back on top.
Well if our big names actually come to the party we should win this. Currently leaning heavily on Obano, McNally, Spencer and Zach.
Two penalties awarded to us in their half, both in added time and we STILL conspire to concede 3 points to them. F me.
Quote:JJ was slowed down by a (legal) block and took a while to get back up to sprint speed. Bencer est plus rapidement though.Optimist
Is Spencer quicker than JJ?!!!!
Quote:ballsout
Two penalties awarded to us in their half, both in added time and we STILL conspire to concede 3 points to them. F me.
That was a particularly horrific few minutes. Still in the lead, just about. I think we have the edge on the bench so I remain hopeful.
Quote:RawceQuote:JJ was slowed down by a (legal) block and took a while to get back up to sprint speed. Bencer est plus rapidement though.Optimist
Is Spencer quicker than JJ?!!!!
Spencer held back illegally 5m out which if he had failed to score would have been a penalty try usually. So why not a penalty at the restart? Happens a lot nowadays.
That Bencer is a hell of a player for sure!
Bath still asleep ! 23-17
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Leicester 15 was yards ahead of the kick he went on to collect prior to their try, surely?
STOP LOSING THE BALL AFTER TWO PASSES.
Expletives deleted. Please read board rules.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:03:16:43:35 by CoochieCoo.
Expletives deleted. Please read board rules.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:03:16:43:35 by CoochieCoo.
Decent take on the restart but Rhys kicks long, rather than to touch. 1min later Leicester score a try. Why make things do hard on ourselves.
Oh Dear ! a real pigs ear ........ again.
Well Stuart ? ........over to you
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Well Stuart ? ........over to you
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I really didn’t think much of Blackadder’s Bath. I currently don’t think much more of Hooper’s Bath. A bright handful of games after the restart and now business as usual.
So we would have got more league points if we couldn’t have played that match due to covid, probably not a tactic we should employ, but it would save the inevitable heartache of taking an early lead and then letting it slip way....
Fordy masterclass and horrible conditions, but that was just horrible. Big names who don’t deliver; awful passing and running lines in the backs; stellar back 3 who didn’t get a pass all game; forwards guaranteed to knock-on; pointless penalties; And Walker throwing the ball straight at their front-jumper. Crisis? I think so.
That was so disappointing after a good start.
Watson shocker, JJ anonymous.
Immense from the usual suspects ,Zach, Beno, JM, RMc.
Tom Dunn appeared to get a knock which is concerning.
The only surprise is that after. 20 minutes I actually thought that we were bossing the game. Silly me!
Watson shocker, JJ anonymous.
Immense from the usual suspects ,Zach, Beno, JM, RMc.
Tom Dunn appeared to get a knock which is concerning.
The only surprise is that after. 20 minutes I actually thought that we were bossing the game. Silly me!
It really gets my egg how our internationals underperform in club colours. The error count is a joke. The players can't complain about being tired and overplayed - they've had two weeks off. Rubbish
So in all competitions excluding COVID results we are played 5, lost 4.
Surely even the most ardent supporters of project Hooper have to admit the experiment has failed?
Surely even the most ardent supporters of project Hooper have to admit the experiment has failed?
Anybody looking forward to a Friday Night Sting ...........no ? didn’t think so ....nor am I !
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Do we honestly truly expect anything different?
I am afraid Hooper didn't overly impress me as a captain or a player nor now as a director of rugby.
Steve Diamond anyone?
Nothing can stop the Duke of Earl
I am afraid Hooper didn't overly impress me as a captain or a player nor now as a director of rugby.
Steve Diamond anyone?
Nothing can stop the Duke of Earl
Hooper says we don’t go to Welford Road expecting to win! Think he’s in the wrong job!
Awful, JJ did nothing. Watson utter dross under the high ball. How can you win games when you expect 9 men to do all the work.
And so "on paper" fantastic team, in reality not so. Going backwards
The degree of under performance by a team packed with absolutely top notch players is quite extraordinary. Why is it that our internationals consistently underperform compared to raw youngsters in other teams. They were under prepared at the beginning of the season, they managed to win one game against the bottom side & that’s it. Dreadful.
Hooper was terrible in the post match too. Apparently oenalties can sometimes be because of “what you do with your body.” He also said something about needing to be better in some generic way that I couldn’t quite understand, which I suppose was the point.
That’s the thing. That was basically our first-choice XV. You only get to field that strength 3-4 times a season, and we created absolutely nothing. A freak try, an opportunist try, and a last roll of the dice try. In the business ends of the match we were garbage. If Hooper picks the same suspects next week I’ll scream.
It's funny how many 50:50 balls we don't win, maybe it comes down to desire.
Been going backwards for years and years and years, I keep saying it, and keep getting grief.
A collection of individuals, badly coached with zero team culture.
Quote:abendanon-anon-anon
And so "on paper" fantastic team, in reality not so. Going backwards
Been going backwards for years and years and years, I keep saying it, and keep getting grief.
A collection of individuals, badly coached with zero team culture.
Having watched more rugby this weekend than is good for the health, it seems that we are way behind in grasping that the game has moved on.
Other than a driving maul from last season we have no ideas as to how to dominate the oposition.
The concept of "you can't score unless you have the ball" is nowhwere to be seen.
We hardly put together a flowing movement all game and, as has been said, there were a load of our so-called internationals totally under performing.
Hooper's tenacity to stick to the game plan is going to continue to undermine our game.
Other than a driving maul from last season we have no ideas as to how to dominate the oposition.
The concept of "you can't score unless you have the ball" is nowhwere to be seen.
We hardly put together a flowing movement all game and, as has been said, there were a load of our so-called internationals totally under performing.
Hooper's tenacity to stick to the game plan is going to continue to undermine our game.
Quote:OutsideBath
So in all competitions excluding COVID results we are played 5, lost 4.
Surely even the most ardent supporters of project Hooper have to admit the experiment has failed?
Failed ? It never got going , although some will say it’s a long term project and we’ll see some real improvements in say 20 years ! By which time .............
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Quote:Optimist
That’s the thing. That was basically our first-choice XV. You only get to field that strength 3-4 times a season, and we created absolutely nothing. A freak try, an opportunist try, and a last roll of the dice try. In the business ends of the match we were garbage. If Hooper picks the same suspects next week I’ll scream.
This is completely on the money. I know we have had two weeks without games but that also means we have had two weeks to rest and work on our patterns. I have no clue what Dempsey does and no idea what we are trying to do other than win the collision and kick for territory. The shakey set piece undid any advantage we may have got from that approach and the backs looked disjointed. Individually lots of players did lots of neat things but as individuals.
Quote:johnnyf
We hardly put together a flowing movement all game
We hardly ever do, in any game. Ball retention of a pub team, as usual.
Tigers have some great players and have had them for a while, trouble was were not functioning as a team, I think that was your problem today, a great game between two clubs who are better than their recent results, our forwards won that
Someone who knows about back play should watch that recording and note what RP does with the ball when he doesn't kick it. Redpath hasn't got a chance.
Mercer got the ball more at 10 than any of the backs. Roko, Matavesi, Priestland even JJ all looked slow but also lacked any aggression.
Take out Watson and Redpath and our backs average over 30.
Really is time to get the kids into our backline!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Mercer got the ball more at 10 than any of the backs. Roko, Matavesi, Priestland even JJ all looked slow but also lacked any aggression.
Take out Watson and Redpath and our backs average over 30.
Really is time to get the kids into our backline!
Quote:hasta
Kicking masterclass from Ford.
In those conditions absolutely the correct tactic. Surprised he wasn’t MotM.
I think i have put my finger on the issue.....we aren't very good at playing rugby.
Feels like shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic tbh until we can play more than a few phases without making really basic, unforced errors.
I thought a lot of the officiating was really average but no point mentioning specifics as we are more than capable of losing games with no help.
I have always argued it is good to have some really top, top players at your club like jj and watson but it was the likes of beno, mercer, mcnally who stood up today. I am coming round to the view its just a really bad use of cap.
I think we should accept watson just isnt a 15. I like the idea of him being in the game more but just isnt his position. He has unbelievable assets but they are not his rugby brain, his passing game or under the high ball. I would play rmc and tdg at 15 personally.
Some serious soul searching required, firstly among the coaching staff....is that the best you can get out of a star studded first xv. Credit to leic who scrapped it out and showed some mongrel but jeeze we didn't make it that hard for them!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:03:18:11:10 by charlieboa.
Feels like shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic tbh until we can play more than a few phases without making really basic, unforced errors.
I thought a lot of the officiating was really average but no point mentioning specifics as we are more than capable of losing games with no help.
I have always argued it is good to have some really top, top players at your club like jj and watson but it was the likes of beno, mercer, mcnally who stood up today. I am coming round to the view its just a really bad use of cap.
I think we should accept watson just isnt a 15. I like the idea of him being in the game more but just isnt his position. He has unbelievable assets but they are not his rugby brain, his passing game or under the high ball. I would play rmc and tdg at 15 personally.
Some serious soul searching required, firstly among the coaching staff....is that the best you can get out of a star studded first xv. Credit to leic who scrapped it out and showed some mongrel but jeeze we didn't make it that hard for them!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:03:18:11:10 by charlieboa.
Quote:Cheers TB. Personally I like balanced contributions from people with a different perspective than us Bath fans. (Although I think our recent results are a fair indication of our mediocrity).tigerburnie
Tigers have some great players and have had them for a while, trouble was were not functioning as a team, I think that was your problem today, a great game between two clubs who are better than their recent results, our forwards won that
Quote:charlieboa
I think i have put my finger on the issue.....we aren't very good at playing rugby.
Everything about our back play is wrong - the spacing, the alignment, the timing, the lines, the passing. I genuinely don’t think Hooper can think of the backs as anything other than a bit of slightly superfluous icing on the cake.
I hate to say it but in football terms it seems to me “ He’s lost the dressing room” .
Although there is a lot of ambiguity about this quote, as Ian Holloway said during his time at Crystal Palace in 2012, “ People said I had lost the dressing room. But I know where it is, it’s down the corridor on the left” !
Joel Stransky refers to Springbok coach Allister Coetzee.
“In order to lose the dressing room, you must have a glaring weakness, it’s either a significant incompetence in your leadership and communication, or a narrow minded philosophy that states it’s your way or the highway. Whatever the case, if you were not incompetent then you wouldn’t have lost the dressing room in the first place. If you are a strong leader with qualities that are valued, you wouldn’t lose the respect of your players. “
Not saying this is the case at Bath................just saying.
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Although there is a lot of ambiguity about this quote, as Ian Holloway said during his time at Crystal Palace in 2012, “ People said I had lost the dressing room. But I know where it is, it’s down the corridor on the left” !
Joel Stransky refers to Springbok coach Allister Coetzee.
“In order to lose the dressing room, you must have a glaring weakness, it’s either a significant incompetence in your leadership and communication, or a narrow minded philosophy that states it’s your way or the highway. Whatever the case, if you were not incompetent then you wouldn’t have lost the dressing room in the first place. If you are a strong leader with qualities that are valued, you wouldn’t lose the respect of your players. “
Not saying this is the case at Bath................just saying.
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I feel like Bath Rugby is a comfortable platform for talented players that have their minds on the lucrative international scene. Every single guy that gets the call up is another nail in our coffin. Club games just don't mean the same thing to them any more.
The post-lockdown mini season showed what we are really capable of when players are properly invested because there is no international distraction.
Fans are fed up with the under-baked mediocrity and David Brent post-match comments.
Look what Deano has done at Falcons, built on blood, sweat and commitment.
I just want some guts Bath.
The post-lockdown mini season showed what we are really capable of when players are properly invested because there is no international distraction.
Fans are fed up with the under-baked mediocrity and David Brent post-match comments.
Look what Deano has done at Falcons, built on blood, sweat and commitment.
I just want some guts Bath.
Quote:TomReaganQuote:Cheers TB. Personally I like balanced contributions from people with a different perspective than us Bath fans. (Although I think our recent results are a fair indication of our mediocrity).tigerburnie
Tigers have some great players and have had them for a while, trouble was were not functioning as a team, I think that was your problem today, a great game between two clubs who are better than their recent results, our forwards won that
I also like hearing from opposition fans on here. Good to get a different perspective on their own club and ours.
Quote:Optimist
Everything about our back play is wrong - the spacing, the alignment, the timing, the lines, the passing. I genuinely don’t think Hooper can think of the backs as anything other than a bit of slightly superfluous icing on the cake.
I am looking at a completely dysfunctional display where we create nothing .....and the camera pans away to 3 front 5 forwards (hoops/hatley/lilley) as the brains trust and my heart sinks.
I shouldn't pigeon hole but they dont scream 'heads up, expansive, skilful backs rugby' do they or is it just me with this bee in my bonnet!?
Does Dempsey even attend the games? I never seem to see him in the coach group.
Quote:dannyf2
I feel like Bath Rugby is a comfortable platform for talented players that have their minds on the lucrative international scene. Every single guy that gets the call up is another nail in our coffin. Club games just don't mean the same thing to them any more.
The post-lockdown mini season showed what we are really capable of when players are properly invested because there is no international distraction.
Fans are fed up with the under-baked mediocrity and David Brent post-match comments.
Look what Deano has done at Falcons, built on blood, sweat and commitment.
I just want some guts Bath.
Fair bit of truth in this i think sadly. The players and management would of course strenuously deny it....would i believe them.....hmmm, not certain.
I think in hoops defence he is trying to build that local lads, home grown band of brothers philosophy....just not doing it very well imho.
Something that struck me was than when BT showed the players getting off the coach arriving at Welford Road they didn’t exactly look enthused to be there and their body language was just poor to my mind and from that point I thought we were going to struggle to win today
Quote:ken_jnr
Hooper was terrible in the post match too. Apparently oenalties can sometimes be because of “what you do with your body.” He also said something about needing to be better in some generic way that I couldn’t quite understand, which I suppose was the point.
Did he not mention “ fixing it all in training next week “ !
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Not convinced by Hooper at any point in his career but have been willing to give benefit of doubt, starting to wear VERY thin now. The David Brent comment is tellingly apt.
However up to now we have given lots of credit to Hatley and Charteris but you have to say that today our front row (of just below England first choicers) was bossed by Genge and two 33yr olds.
And at the lineout we were comprehensively out thought.
Worrying times indeed.
FLAP
However up to now we have given lots of credit to Hatley and Charteris but you have to say that today our front row (of just below England first choicers) was bossed by Genge and two 33yr olds.
And at the lineout we were comprehensively out thought.
Worrying times indeed.
FLAP
Quote:charlieboaQuote:Optimist
Everything about our back play is wrong - the spacing, the alignment, the timing, the lines, the passing. I genuinely don’t think Hooper can think of the backs as anything other than a bit of slightly superfluous icing on the cake.
I am looking at a completely dysfunctional display where we create nothing .....and the camera pans away to 3 front 5 forwards (hoops/hatley/lilley) as the brains trust and my heart sinks.
I shouldn't pigeon hole but they dont scream 'heads up, expansive, skilful backs rugby' do they or is it just me with this bee in my bonnet!?
Not at all, we have all international backs (except Redpath) who are totally clueless. The backs are desperate for a leader both on the training ground and the pitch.
Its as though the instruction to the backs is slow down, short passes, crowd together in midfield and wait for the pack.
I suspect this set of backs has agoraphobia !
Our much vaunted scrum was exposed as a myth the day the Saracens 3rd string Championship props won a penalty try 5 metres from our line. The day we choked out of a play off spot. Is Will Stuart trying to win "the most penalised player in the league" two years running?
Quote:To be fair to ballsache, he’s been saying the same thing for a while now.charlieboa
I think i have put my finger on the issue.....we aren't very good at playing rugby.
Feels like shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic tbh until we can play more than a few phases without making really basic, unforced errors.
Quote:ballsout
Our much vaunted scrum was exposed as a myth the day the Saracens 3rd string Championship props won a penalty try 5 metres from our line. The day we choked out of a play off spot. Is Will Stuart trying to win "the most penalised player in the league" two years running?
Exeter absolutely dismantled us in the scrum as well.
Building your whole game on dominance up front really needs dominance up front doesnt it....
One positive.... gabe hamer-webb was warming up with the squad before the game.
Good news, was expecting him to be out longer. Get him in before we coach any creativity and instinct out of him!
Good news, was expecting him to be out longer. Get him in before we coach any creativity and instinct out of him!
In a close game it makes sense to take off both our best place kickers and bring on a hooker who cant throw in. The subs timings is always the same like its decided once and is then the same for the rest of the season and we lose so much power when mcnally and the front row goes off. With all the forwards coaches and a 6.2 bench id expect more from the pack than we got in the last 20. That said jj being out sprinted by Spencer was an eye-opener, we are so slow and haven't got a clue how to play the current game. Strategically i think its time for changes now and let a new manager have half a season probably without the threat of relegation to decide where to go from here.
How many more defeats will it take for Hooper to be sacked? Or is it just the case that he is guaranteed to finish his contract regardless of results?
I don’t think Hooper will be sacked - but they might just have to strategically find some brief-case related, office-bound role for him and give Hatley a bit more profile and Dempsey some sort of freedom to actually influence our attack.
How about actually letting Hooper experience rugby in a different environment first before being thrown into a role he's never attempted? All he's experienced is failure at Bath, and it looks like he's passing that on nicely.
I'm not one tediously suggesting he gets sacked, but the whole appointment was deluded from the start.
Hooper, Hatley, Charteris, Lilley .... + Dempsey and Ryan Davis. Who thought this was a good idea?
I'm not one tediously suggesting he gets sacked, but the whole appointment was deluded from the start.
Hooper, Hatley, Charteris, Lilley .... + Dempsey and Ryan Davis. Who thought this was a good idea?
Quote:Optimist
I don’t think Hooper will be sacked - but they might just have to strategically find some brief-case related, office-bound role for him and give Hatley a bit more profile and Dempsey some sort of freedom to actually influence our attack.
Let me rephrase, how many more defeats do you think it will take before Hooper is moved from his current DOR role?
Or has he got immunity from poor results for the duration of his contract?
We can't chat in the pub or on the terraces, so the forum is the place to be, I won't say anything on a forum that I wouldn't say face to face. We looked like we were going to get a drubbing, Borthwick seems to have found out what we've been doing wrong and starting to put things right, sure our visit to the Wreck will be the place where you can put it right.
Quote:Optimist
I don’t think Hooper will be sacked - but they might just have to strategically find some brief-case related, office-bound role for him and give Hatley a bit more profile and Dempsey some sort of freedom to actually influence our attack.
If I was BC I would go and get Stuart Lancaster at any cost. Dempsey's not working at the moment.
Having watched the game again calmly on catchup I think some of the criticism here is over the top. I do wish BO and some others would post something more optimistic and thoughtful.
The match was played in pretty awful conditions, and the stats apparently showed both sides to be pretty accurate given the circumstances.
The result could have gone either way, with Leicester probably deserving it with their ferocious attitude backed up by Ford's expert kicking.
The penalty Leicester won in the first half leading to their try was very fortuitous in my opinion and Bath deserved to be well ahead at half-time. The number 10 position needs to be addressed asap as the late substitution of Matavesi looked clueless as he then became our kicker and is just not good enough for that.
Throughout there was no lack of endeavour and every player clearly gave his all. The talent and desire without doubt exists in this squad.
Having said all that, I do agree that the team does look flat at times, lacking the tight togetherness and belief seen in in other teams. There is rarely any sign of that enthusiasm (even excitability) and support you see from the likes of Wasps or Exeter when a player does something special. When you see Leinster play, their international stars always seem to shine; with Bath this is often not the case. Stuart Hooper shot down the post-match question on morale and attitude, but from my perspective this is not a tight, happy camp.
The match was played in pretty awful conditions, and the stats apparently showed both sides to be pretty accurate given the circumstances.
The result could have gone either way, with Leicester probably deserving it with their ferocious attitude backed up by Ford's expert kicking.
The penalty Leicester won in the first half leading to their try was very fortuitous in my opinion and Bath deserved to be well ahead at half-time. The number 10 position needs to be addressed asap as the late substitution of Matavesi looked clueless as he then became our kicker and is just not good enough for that.
Throughout there was no lack of endeavour and every player clearly gave his all. The talent and desire without doubt exists in this squad.
Having said all that, I do agree that the team does look flat at times, lacking the tight togetherness and belief seen in in other teams. There is rarely any sign of that enthusiasm (even excitability) and support you see from the likes of Wasps or Exeter when a player does something special. When you see Leinster play, their international stars always seem to shine; with Bath this is often not the case. Stuart Hooper shot down the post-match question on morale and attitude, but from my perspective this is not a tight, happy camp.
The most disappointing thing for me is how lethargic a number of our genuine international class players look when playing for the club (though certainly not all)...
It feels like other clubs get more from their internationals than we do and we know our guys can do it.
It feels like other clubs get more from their internationals than we do and we know our guys can do it.
We have lots of players that most other Prem teams would covet, Beno, Dunner, JM, Stooke, Zach, TF, SU, Spencer, RMc, AW, JJ, Roko etc, etc.
With the exception of Hatley, how many other teams would be queuing up to poach our coaches?
How many times in a season do you look at the pre-match team-sheets and think that we are the lesser te am? Exeter and HC games aside I rarely think we are the lesser side, yet time and time again the results say otherwise.
I don’t think Hoops is a bad guy, I do think that throwing him in when Blackadder left was a massive step too far.
Death by a thousand excuses.
With the exception of Hatley, how many other teams would be queuing up to poach our coaches?
How many times in a season do you look at the pre-match team-sheets and think that we are the lesser te am? Exeter and HC games aside I rarely think we are the lesser side, yet time and time again the results say otherwise.
I don’t think Hoops is a bad guy, I do think that throwing him in when Blackadder left was a massive step too far.
Death by a thousand excuses.
[quote tigerburnie]We can't chat in the pub or on the terraces, so the forum is the place to be/quote]
Quite right too. And just like 99% of people in the bar or terraces would enjoy exchanging civilised views and perspectives with opposition fans before, during and after a rugby match, so will most posters here.
Quite right too. And just like 99% of people in the bar or terraces would enjoy exchanging civilised views and perspectives with opposition fans before, during and after a rugby match, so will most posters here.
Hatley is poachable you wouldn't want to change the forwards coaches, nor bin Hooper if you have made a decision to follow the Exeter/Baxter path. Problem is we have no expertise on back play. We need a backs coach with a clear plan thats strong enough to impose himself on his fellow coaches and take these internationals in hand.
That man, (Lancaster in my view) then says to Hooper "Get my this 10 to mentor Bailey and Redpath".
With that we have a chance.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
That man, (Lancaster in my view) then says to Hooper "Get my this 10 to mentor Bailey and Redpath".
With that we have a chance.
I thought our lineout was poor but was surprised by the upper hand in scrum and especially counter rucking. The youth did well, Martin 19, Steward 20, van poorvliet 19, Heyes 21, didn’t look out of their depth. Bath seem to have a bit of the Tigers under Murphy look good on paper, less so on grass etc.
Quote:BathIron
I do wish BO and some others would post something more optimistic and thoughtful.
When you watch almost every other team winning trophies of some kind, and us underperforming with the same glaring issues year after year, it's hard to muster much optimism. I did think given our pretty much first choice XV and a couple of weeks off we'd win today, silly me. Apart from a couple of fortuitous tries of ours, we create nothing, and rely on individual scores, fitting for a club that's made up of a bunch of individuals.
Quote:shipwrecked
If I was BC I would go and get Stuart Lancaster at any cost. Dempsey's not working at the moment.
And he would have one hand tied behind his back, just as Dempsey does now. The Hooper framework doesn't allow Dempsey to add much.
Quote:Ballsout
When you watch almost every other team winning trophies of some kind, and us underperforming with the same glaring issues year after year, it's hard to muster much optimism.
You do surprise me what with your perpetually sunny disposition.
Despite the loss it was an open and enjoyable game. However I also don’t see Bath winning anything without change right at the top. At best we epitomise mid table mediocrity and we need someone with razor sharp focus, belief, and passion to draw us out of the doldrums.
Quote:Stopsy
The youth did well, Martin 19, Steward 20, van poorvliet 19, Heyes 21, didn’t look out of their depth. Bath seem to have a bit of the Tigers under Murphy look good on paper, less so on grass etc.
Don't you have your own board to talk about how great Tigers are and how poor Bath were? Enough goading already, whether consciously done or not. You won, you don't need to visit the losing side's board talking about how great your players are.
Watch almost every other team win trophies, really? Only Saracens and Exeter have had any success to speak of in recent years. All the rest are valiantly battling to find a successful coaching and playing team, and formula that works. Bristol and Wasps are looking good (remembering of course that pre-lockdown Wasps were all over the place), whilst all the rest are works in progress, Bath included.
As I commented, it does not seem a tight camp and we are not seeing a team that demonstrates the class of the individual players. And that is a big concern. Hooper is now under the spotlight and personally I would like to see more enthusiasm and spirit, and better communication with the supporters.
As I commented, it does not seem a tight camp and we are not seeing a team that demonstrates the class of the individual players. And that is a big concern. Hooper is now under the spotlight and personally I would like to see more enthusiasm and spirit, and better communication with the supporters.
Just my take on things BO, but the clear inference is that with the right DOR we'll see an upturn in fortunes, which is something I'm sure you agree with. None of the posts from Tigers fans have been 'in your face' or provocative, just musings on the game that, as one said earlier, would usually be shared in a pub afterwards. Of course if someone did come on here to wind Bath fans up they'd do so on the desperate hope that we bite, so on those very rare occasions it seems sensible not to...
Quote:BathIron
Watch almost every other team win trophies, really? Only Saracens and Exeter have had any success to speak of in recent years.
In the last ten years, every club in the Premiership has won silverware of some kind, except for:
- Newcastle
- London Irish
- Worcester
- Bath
- Wasps (who won the league 12 years ago and are clearly on the up now)
So yes, really.
Is it possible to put a DOR out on loan to another club to gain a bit of experience? Spencer must wonder what sort of play by number madhouse he has fallen into. We keep looking at the names on the teamsheet and start getting excited but Hooper has inherited an excellent group of players and has managed to make them look very ordinary. Apart from the spell last autumn when we seemed to play well for a few games, the experiment with Hooper has not gone well, nor is there any sign of Bath improving, quite the reverse - and that was our first choice team!
So five teams have not won silverware in ten years, and a handful have picked up a single junior competition trophy. Let's not pretend that it's all plain sailing elsewhe in the Prem. My point remains, that outside Saracens and Exeter, the rest are playng catch up. And yes, the current formula at Bath is not working well.
However, the team needs our support and encouragement and surely this forum can help by picking out the positives (for example ZM was excellent today) and suggesting ideas for improvement (such as more open communication with supporters).
The endless negative bickering about dropped passes etc. is so unproductive and depressing.
However, the team needs our support and encouragement and surely this forum can help by picking out the positives (for example ZM was excellent today) and suggesting ideas for improvement (such as more open communication with supporters).
The endless negative bickering about dropped passes etc. is so unproductive and depressing.
The continuing excellence of ZM isn't much of a positive if the rumours are true that he's leaving! (Sorry if I'm raining on your parade BathIron!) Incidentally, is the name a reference to West Ham, because that might explain why your glass is definitely half full right now...
Quote:BathIron
So five teams have not won silverware in ten years, and a handful have picked up a single junior competition trophy.
Eh? In the last 10 years:
- Saracens, Exeter, Harlequins, Leicester and Northampton all won the Premiership at least once.
- Saracens, Exeter, Bristol, Harlequins, Gloucester and Northampton all won European silverware.
- Northampton and Sale won the Premiership Cup.
- Exeter, Saracens, Leicester, Harlequins and Gloucester all won the Anglo Welsh at least once.
For a squad with as many big names as Bath, the fact that we're in the same company as Worcester, London Irish and Newcastle when it comes to winning a trophy is just sad.
Quote:BathIron
The endless negative bickering about dropped passes etc. is so unproductive and depressing.
If this club managed to string more than 4 phases together in attack, ever, let alone actually amounted to anything, ever, there'd be a lot less negativity.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:04:00:28:24 by ballsout.
Maybe there’s a case for dropping some of these so called stars & trusting in more of our youngsters.
I hardly ever see much of a contribution from Faletau, Joseph or Underhill for Bath though they pull the stops out in internationals. Also, now that Stewart & Dunn are on the England radar they seem less effective. There very clearly seems to be an attitude at Bath of country before club.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:04:00:40:52 by Bath Hammer.
I hardly ever see much of a contribution from Faletau, Joseph or Underhill for Bath though they pull the stops out in internationals. Also, now that Stewart & Dunn are on the England radar they seem less effective. There very clearly seems to be an attitude at Bath of country before club.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:04:00:40:52 by Bath Hammer.
Just watched the game. I'm not often angry about rugby but I'm angry about that. Tigers *entire* game plan was "kick it up in the air". And we found no answer to it. That is just inexcusable. We took off Spencer and Priestland when accurate kicking was going to be at its most valuable. That is inexcusable. We tried to play loose rugby at Welford Rd in the freezing cold and pouring fricking rain. That is just dumb. And inexcusable.
I also wonder why, with 1 minute on the clock, in possession and with a converted try needed to win, do we kick the ball away?
The really galling thing is we could have won that game and, instead, we proceeded to hand it to the Tigs, gift wrapped with a nice little bow on top. FFS.
MotM - I can't be bothered.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
I also wonder why, with 1 minute on the clock, in possession and with a converted try needed to win, do we kick the ball away?
The really galling thing is we could have won that game and, instead, we proceeded to hand it to the Tigs, gift wrapped with a nice little bow on top. FFS.
MotM - I can't be bothered.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Bearing in mind that our first try was highly fortuitous & the second pure individual opportunism by a plater who is still more a Saracen than tarnished by the Bath ways, we should have lost that match by quite a wide margin against a team whose supporters some on here were pitying last season. The interval of us being better than then them didn’t last long did it? Also, Hooper saying we shouldn’t expect to win at WR is rubbish because without crowds home & away is much the same.
Quote:Bath Hammer
Bearing in mind that our first try was highly fortuitous & the second pure individual opportunism by a plater who is still more a Saracen than tarnished by the Bath ways, we should have lost that match by quite a wide margin against a team wyhose supporters some on here were pitying last season. The interval of us being better than then them didn’t last long did it? Also, Hooper saying we shouldn’t expect to win at WR is rubbish because without crowds home & away is much the same.
Should we not expect to win every game we play? It may not be realistic but it means we'll compete.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Not feeling a lot better this morning, like Joe I do not often feel annoyed about rugby, but I sat watching yesterday knowing in my bones we were not going to win, even when 14 nil up. Bath often look like 15 individuals, where is the team passion and determination to win, nobody on the pitch seems to take charge in difficult situations, it looks as if they are all just waiting for instructions from water boys?
Maybe we should have a ban on anyone who is not a medic coming on the pitch during the game, the chances of dehydration were pretty slim yesterday and it would make the players think for themselves for once.
And to substitute our only two goal kickers (was Priestland injured he played no worse than many others) right at the end of a close match was crazy, if unenforced. Every players thought process would have been different for those last three minutes if we had kicked that relative simple conversion.
Maybe we should have a ban on anyone who is not a medic coming on the pitch during the game, the chances of dehydration were pretty slim yesterday and it would make the players think for themselves for once.
And to substitute our only two goal kickers (was Priestland injured he played no worse than many others) right at the end of a close match was crazy, if unenforced. Every players thought process would have been different for those last three minutes if we had kicked that relative simple conversion.
In contrast to those above, who feel very much like I did in previous years, it feels a bit like the 'new normal' and as such am just pretty indifferent about the Bath performances and results now. Not sure if it's the lack of interaction with the club or the lack of va va voom from the DOR etc but they just just come across as not that bothered* and it rubs off. Desperately seeking a bit of passion other than from the same ones every week (Dunn, Zach, Stooke etc).
I would actually welcome a player (and staff) shake up for next season, too many living on reputation rather than performance. The only think the club excel at is mediocrity and I'm not sure how long they can survive like that before everyone just loses interest?
(*I'm sure they are, but its all just a bit 'meh' from the reports to the interviews)
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I would actually welcome a player (and staff) shake up for next season, too many living on reputation rather than performance. The only think the club excel at is mediocrity and I'm not sure how long they can survive like that before everyone just loses interest?
(*I'm sure they are, but its all just a bit 'meh' from the reports to the interviews)
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I don't feel any better this morning either, one point being made that increases frustration is communication and simply not knowing what the clubs thinking is. Never used to be an issue for me but when results aren't going our way it is becoming much more important.
We don't know why players are subbed, we don't know what is happening at fly half, are we going to expand coaching? What does GD think of our backs current demise? Are we deliberately protecting our young talent, even simple stuff like who is injured and how badly and expected return?
We don't need a complete overhaul because we know from only a few months ago we can win games, but we do need a new injection of direction. it does feel like we are in the same position as Wasps 6 months ago.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
We don't know why players are subbed, we don't know what is happening at fly half, are we going to expand coaching? What does GD think of our backs current demise? Are we deliberately protecting our young talent, even simple stuff like who is injured and how badly and expected return?
We don't need a complete overhaul because we know from only a few months ago we can win games, but we do need a new injection of direction. it does feel like we are in the same position as Wasps 6 months ago.
Quote:shipwrecked
I don't feel any better this morning either, one point being made that increases frustration is communication and simply not knowing what the clubs thinking is. Never used to be an issue for me but when results aren't going our way it is becoming much more important.
It's a double whammy when you have a comms void as well as not being able to attend games. Essentially the only interaction that we as long term fans have with the club is the team sheet, the game and a management cliche interview afterwards. Rinse and repeat with the release of the next team sheet. (Maybe add the odd e-mail in between asking for cash).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
GD has an incredibly low profile. I’ve no idea even what he looks like. What I do know is that there has been absolutely no improvement in the back line & it’s linking up with the forwards. Even against the (few) teams we beat we look inferior in that regard. The likes of Bristol & Wasps are miles ahead of us & even Newcastle showed us up. We have to find another backs/attack coach.
The Leicester game and other recent performances clarify, if it needs clarifying, that Bath are not playing as a team and they sorely miss an inspirational, fiesty and savvy on-field leader who can energise the others and make on-field tactical changes. Our stars aren't shining and don't seem bothered to want to. Why should they with more rewarding six nations duty up the track and are playing in a club game plan that is no plan at all and certainly is not one geared to utilize their skills or realise any imminent trophy success. It is no surprise that so many are considering pastures elsewhere.
The sad truth appears to be that our DOR directs very little, is tactically naive, seems to have team motivation issues and is overseeing a decline in the club's performance. The players are not without blame either. Too many poor individual performances, basic skill failures and shallow commitment. Maybe a clear out is not a bad way forward. Let youth have its way.
Perhaps what is more surprising is that Bruce appears content to tolerate it.
But I suspect Covid will shut up this season's rugby shop long before we have time to regroup.
The sad truth appears to be that our DOR directs very little, is tactically naive, seems to have team motivation issues and is overseeing a decline in the club's performance. The players are not without blame either. Too many poor individual performances, basic skill failures and shallow commitment. Maybe a clear out is not a bad way forward. Let youth have its way.
Perhaps what is more surprising is that Bruce appears content to tolerate it.
But I suspect Covid will shut up this season's rugby shop long before we have time to regroup.
We have no excuse for yesterday, it was our first choice team who have had pretty much the whole of December to rest and prepare.
I do feel that some of the blame lies at the feet of the coaches, we just don't look like a well drilled side compared to the likes of Exeter, Wasps or Newcastle. However having said that I don't think we get any value of out some of our "stars", and that must trickle down to the younger club players.
I do feel that some of the blame lies at the feet of the coaches, we just don't look like a well drilled side compared to the likes of Exeter, Wasps or Newcastle. However having said that I don't think we get any value of out some of our "stars", and that must trickle down to the younger club players.
Quote:ballsoutQuote:Stopsy
The youth did well, Martin 19, Steward 20, van poorvliet 19, Heyes 21, didn’t look out of their depth. Bath seem to have a bit of the Tigers under Murphy look good on paper, less so on grass etc.
Don't you have your own board to talk about how great Tigers are and how poor Bath were? Enough goading already, whether consciously done or not. You won, you don't need to visit the losing side's board talking about how great your players are.
Unnecessary ballsout- and unacceptable. You know the rules and have been reminded of them. Visitors are welcome- no abuse.
This is your last warning.
PG
Maybe its the opposite, maybe we need a global superstar to push us up there, like a Hogg, Itoje or Radradra who can win games by themselves or at least pull others up towards their level?
However I still make the point that a world class jackling back row (or 2) would make the difference between winning a turnover and giving away a ruck pen which could have reduced the pens and increased the opportunities yesterday. We have some great players but I don't think that the Bath strengths are tailored to todays top level game. For example Wasps beat Exe with a midfield of Le Bourgeois and De Jong and a back line with Basset and Sopoaga in it, that's not a top quality line up but it didn't matter. Even a Dan Thomas (Bris) would be fine. Or just play Bayliss who is the Bath player with the most turnovers (4).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
However I still make the point that a world class jackling back row (or 2) would make the difference between winning a turnover and giving away a ruck pen which could have reduced the pens and increased the opportunities yesterday. We have some great players but I don't think that the Bath strengths are tailored to todays top level game. For example Wasps beat Exe with a midfield of Le Bourgeois and De Jong and a back line with Basset and Sopoaga in it, that's not a top quality line up but it didn't matter. Even a Dan Thomas (Bris) would be fine. Or just play Bayliss who is the Bath player with the most turnovers (4).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Bath Hammer
GD has an incredibly low profile. I’ve no idea even what he looks like. What I do know is that there has been absolutely no improvement in the back line & it’s linking up with the forwards. Even against the (few) teams we beat we look inferior in that regard. The likes of Bristol & Wasps are miles ahead of us & even Newcastle showed us up. We have to find another backs/attack coach.
Agree, has GD actually given any interview ever ??
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Stopsy I think has been posting on ‘ere and elsewhere for about 20 years! He always goes to the rival mb before and after a game. Some times to congratulate and sometimes to not exactly commiserate but has always been reasonable. I believe the tiggers have banned you bo for just doing what you accuse Stopsy of doing.
May I humbly ask you to not preach to the converted (we all recognise our weaknesses and don’t need it being rammed down our throats) but give your advice to the club who would very willingly discuss the issues you have.
May I humbly ask you to not preach to the converted (we all recognise our weaknesses and don’t need it being rammed down our throats) but give your advice to the club who would very willingly discuss the issues you have.
[quote warrenball]Not feeling a lot better this morning, like Joe I do not often feel annoyed about rugby, but I sat watching yesterday knowing in my bones we were not going to win, even when 14 nil up.
I have rarely watched a Bath match in years and felt that we would win...the times we have conjured a defeat from a winning position. Passion and history says I can't give up on the BBW..but I wish I could. I'm starting to not even get cross any more. A sad indictment.
I have rarely watched a Bath match in years and felt that we would win...the times we have conjured a defeat from a winning position. Passion and history says I can't give up on the BBW..but I wish I could. I'm starting to not even get cross any more. A sad indictment.
I'm usually one of the 'glass half full' crowd, but yesterday was dire. Yes, we led by 14 but the two tries were a moment of luck and a moment of magic. We never threatened other than that until the final five minutes. Leicester are a limited side, but they played the conditions and the match so much better than we did and thoroughly deserved their win, likely with a BP.
For me, as many have stated, the problems begin and end with our back play. Yes, the lineout wasn't 100% yesterday and the scrum was 50/50 (a good battle, actually) but our forwards (just about) gave as good as they got with the likes of Obano and Dunn putting it about and Mercer excellent. Most weeks this is the case. The forwards try their damnedest, giving a platform and smashing people, quite often backwards. The stat shown yesterday about positive and negative collisions had us dominating, as I think we often do with the likes of Obano, Dunn, Stuart, Underhill etc ferocious and fully committed. So I've few complaints with our forwards in the tight or loose, or with the way they're being coached (no surprise given Hatley's pedigree).
But our back play is woeful and, as many have pointed out above, what GD is paid to do is beyond me. Working out how to get our international class (some world-class) backs firing behind a pack that often goes forward must be one of the most fun and exciting jobs in club if not world rugby. But it never happens, other than through some dodgy-looking moments of pattacake passing. The inaccuracy and lack of structure are astonishing, given the backline on paper and the amount of time GD has now had to get his way of playing across. For me, his time is up.
Having said that, I've been a Priestland believer, thinking that given the quality he has around him and playing a limited game plan, one that suits his strong kicking game and which has been reasonably successful to date, he is a satisfactory solution at 10 until a better option comes along. However, without singling him out, for me, he's a big part of the problem. Tigers deserved the win, but if you swap the 10s, I think we'd have won, as Ford played with intelligence (varying his kicking etc) and guile (bringing runners onto the ball at pace, in space etc). Priestland did and does neither of these things.
A combination of a lack of quality back coaching and a limited 10 is killing us. You can maybe get away with one of those but not both. It's ridiculous how little we get out of JJ, AW, Roko and RM. Roko touched the ball twice. That's embarrassing. Until one of these issues is changed (new backs coach or new 10) then we're going to be in the same place, winning some games through the forwards but falling way short of being a rounded team that can challenge the best in the league.
Wasps on Friday is a massive game. I still believe we could grind out a win and some individual brilliance and some forward dominance could see us play some decent rugby. But there's a chance that Wasps, who demolished Exeter this weekend, could wipe the floor with us. If they do, given we then lose our internationals for a couple of months, the rest of the season could be a real slog.
I haven't said it to date but change is required. Change the back coach and/or change the 10. Sam Vesty and Marcus Smith ASAP.
For me, as many have stated, the problems begin and end with our back play. Yes, the lineout wasn't 100% yesterday and the scrum was 50/50 (a good battle, actually) but our forwards (just about) gave as good as they got with the likes of Obano and Dunn putting it about and Mercer excellent. Most weeks this is the case. The forwards try their damnedest, giving a platform and smashing people, quite often backwards. The stat shown yesterday about positive and negative collisions had us dominating, as I think we often do with the likes of Obano, Dunn, Stuart, Underhill etc ferocious and fully committed. So I've few complaints with our forwards in the tight or loose, or with the way they're being coached (no surprise given Hatley's pedigree).
But our back play is woeful and, as many have pointed out above, what GD is paid to do is beyond me. Working out how to get our international class (some world-class) backs firing behind a pack that often goes forward must be one of the most fun and exciting jobs in club if not world rugby. But it never happens, other than through some dodgy-looking moments of pattacake passing. The inaccuracy and lack of structure are astonishing, given the backline on paper and the amount of time GD has now had to get his way of playing across. For me, his time is up.
Having said that, I've been a Priestland believer, thinking that given the quality he has around him and playing a limited game plan, one that suits his strong kicking game and which has been reasonably successful to date, he is a satisfactory solution at 10 until a better option comes along. However, without singling him out, for me, he's a big part of the problem. Tigers deserved the win, but if you swap the 10s, I think we'd have won, as Ford played with intelligence (varying his kicking etc) and guile (bringing runners onto the ball at pace, in space etc). Priestland did and does neither of these things.
A combination of a lack of quality back coaching and a limited 10 is killing us. You can maybe get away with one of those but not both. It's ridiculous how little we get out of JJ, AW, Roko and RM. Roko touched the ball twice. That's embarrassing. Until one of these issues is changed (new backs coach or new 10) then we're going to be in the same place, winning some games through the forwards but falling way short of being a rounded team that can challenge the best in the league.
Wasps on Friday is a massive game. I still believe we could grind out a win and some individual brilliance and some forward dominance could see us play some decent rugby. But there's a chance that Wasps, who demolished Exeter this weekend, could wipe the floor with us. If they do, given we then lose our internationals for a couple of months, the rest of the season could be a real slog.
I haven't said it to date but change is required. Change the back coach and/or change the 10. Sam Vesty and Marcus Smith ASAP.
We were outthought, outrucked and outhearted! Mindless penalties once again rearing their pathetic heads and Chudleigh 'wafting farts' to the forwards YET AGAIN!!!
Ben Spencer must have woken up this morning, thinking, "What a bunch of chumps I've signed for!"
Adopted Players: All of the little blighters!!!
Ben Spencer must have woken up this morning, thinking, "What a bunch of chumps I've signed for!"
Adopted Players: All of the little blighters!!!
Quote:Lots of excellent posts this morning that sum up exactly how I'm feeling, but this one is word for word spot on about my view of Bath at present and not a knee jerk reaction to recent defeats but a general demise that's been going on unarrested for 4 years. The inertia since lockdown has been appalling at a time when the club should be doing all it can to keep fans re-engaged, as many of us are finding ways to adapt to life without a regular fix of live rugby.BathMatt53
In contrast to those above, who feel very much like I did in previous years, it feels a bit like the 'new normal' and as such am just pretty indifferent about the Bath performances and results now. Not sure if it's the lack of interaction with the club or the lack of va va voom from the DOR etc but they just just come across as not that bothered* and it rubs off. Desperately seeking a bit of passion other than from the same ones every week (Dunn, Zach, Stooke etc).
I would actually welcome a player (and staff) shake up for next season, too many
living on reputation rather than performance. The only think the club excel at is mediocrity and I'm not sure how long they can survive like that before everyone just loses interest?
(*I'm sure they are, but its all just a bit 'meh' from the reports to the interviews)
Its a disheartening board for sure Tom, as you say Matt is a good summariser. You would hope that someone at the club would be interested to see how their clubs fans feel, the fact that they don't use this medium would seem to indicate that is unlikely to happen.
BB's recent post about TH props stimulated a response from Flats and I remember thinking "how refreshing that was".
Wouldn't it be nice for the club to post on here once a month answering considered and respectful questions, even if those questions were moderated it would, at least give a feeling of involvement.
The atmosphere this morning seems to indicate many regular fans and posters might struggle to stay interested.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
BB's recent post about TH props stimulated a response from Flats and I remember thinking "how refreshing that was".
Wouldn't it be nice for the club to post on here once a month answering considered and respectful questions, even if those questions were moderated it would, at least give a feeling of involvement.
The atmosphere this morning seems to indicate many regular fans and posters might struggle to stay interested.
Yes I'm with BathMatt, I quite enjoyed the game yesterday, OK we were rubbish but it filled my afternoon.
I was hoping Wasps would beat Ex, I was slightly hoping GLos would beat Sale, clearly I wanted Bath to win, but GF made us look stupid and we deserved to lose. It was a long time ago when I got upset about Bath being rubbish.
I've never had much faith in Hooper as a player or anything else. I can't see anything changing this season.
I was hoping Wasps would beat Ex, I was slightly hoping GLos would beat Sale, clearly I wanted Bath to win, but GF made us look stupid and we deserved to lose. It was a long time ago when I got upset about Bath being rubbish.
I've never had much faith in Hooper as a player or anything else. I can't see anything changing this season.
Lol maybe I should volunteer my services as a passion intermediary, sort of a Bath Rugby fluffer or marriage councilor between club and fans (if you prefer).
Q: Hoops how do you think we will do at the weekend?
A: We have trained really well...intensity...80 min game...best fans in the world...doing the hard yards...earning the right...
BM53 Summary: We will crush them, COYB!!!
Shout Shout let it all out
Blue Black and White's what it's all about
Come on
Come on you Bath
Come on
Repeat
OK, maybe not.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Q: Hoops how do you think we will do at the weekend?
A: We have trained really well...intensity...80 min game...best fans in the world...doing the hard yards...earning the right...
BM53 Summary: We will crush them, COYB!!!
Shout Shout let it all out
Blue Black and White's what it's all about
Come on
Come on you Bath
Come on
Repeat
OK, maybe not.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Slightly ironic that those are lyrical adaptations of a band called 'Tears for Fears'
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
You would hope that someone at the club would be interested to see how their clubs fans feel, the fact that they don't use this medium would seem to indicate that is unlikely to happen.
.
SW, I know that club staff read this board- they have commented to me on it.
I have fed back to the club our frustration at lack of Chron Q & As (A Chron decision dictated by staffing levels) and consequent information gap.
Obviously we cannot expect the club to comment on speculation and injury news is a sensitive issue too, but Bath rugby are aware that fans would like more communication, more info.
I think therefore "unlikely to happen" is a premature call.
PG
Quote:P G TipsQuote:shipwrecked
You would hope that someone at the club would be interested to see how their clubs fans feel, the fact that they don't use this medium would seem to indicate that is unlikely to happen.
.
SW, I know that club staff read this board- they have commented to me on it.
I have fed back to the club our frustration at lack of Chron Q & As (A Chron decision dictated by staffing levels) and consequent information gap.
Obviously we cannot expect the club to comment on speculation and injury news is a sensitive issue too, but Bath rugby are aware that fans would like more communication, more info.
I think therefore "unlikely to happen" is a premature call.
PG
Fair enough PG, it just seems that we shouldn't really need to ask for it, difficult not to get trapped in the quicksand of disappointment I guess, your efforts as always are much appreciated.
Quote:TomReagan
The continuing excellence of ZM isn't much of a positive if the rumours are true that he's leaving! (Sorry if I'm raining on your parade BathIron!) Incidentally, is the name a reference to West Ham, because that might explain why your glass is definitely half full right now...
I like you hope the ZM rumours have no substance. Your are right that my other passion is for West Ham (raised near Bath, first job in the East End). It has been a true character building exercise supporting both teams over the years!
Anyone else notice the commentators saying how Ford ‘demanded’ the ball for the Seward try. The only 10 who has so much as politely explored the possibility of getting the ball when we’re in the red zone was Redpath and, hey presto, we scored.
Quote:Optimist
Anyone else notice the commentators saying how Ford ‘demanded’ the ball for the Seward try. The only 10 who has so much as politely explored the possibility of getting the ball when we’re in the red zone was Redpath and, hey presto, we scored.
Yep, all to polite, "would you mind, ever so much, if you have a moment, to pass the ball in my direction?"
Think I said it above (losing track of rants) but you get the feeling that Hooper’s attitude to backs and backs coaches is akin to a 1960s boardroom attitude to women .... ‘yes, dear, of course, very interesting. Any chance of a cup of tea and some digestives?’
Quote:P G Tips
SW, I know that club staff read this board- they have commented to me on it.
I have fed back to the club our frustration at lack of Chron Q & As (A Chron decision dictated by staffing levels) and consequent information gap.
Obviously we cannot expect the club to comment on speculation and injury news is a sensitive issue too, but Bath rugby are aware that fans would like more communication, more info.
PG
Is injury news sensitive PG? I don't think that it needs to be an essay on each one but something like this would be useful.
[www.gloucesterrugby.co.uk]
The could even add a traffic light system, red for 'out for ages', orange for 'on the road to recovery' (just had an op or something), green for 'hopefully, relapses notwithstanding we would hope to see them soon'.
Certainly don't expect them to comment on speculation obviously.
What the players are actually doing day to day at Covid constrained Farleigh etc would be nice, as would acknowledgement that people like Andy Rock have left (assuming he has). It would even be nice for a little 'a day in the life of' for each of the people on here just so we can understand exactly what they do other than the brief blurb on here.
[www.bathrugby.com]
A day in the life of Hoops would certainly clear things up 'as DOR my role isn't coaching'.
At the risk of sounding like BO, they could start by looking at the Bris site:
[www.bristolbearsrugby.com]
I can see 4 posts on the Bath site about the Tigers game. I can see 13 on the Bris site about their game, including things like this:
[www.bristolbearsrugby.com]
its like Bath doesn't realise that we have been in the IT / social media era for the last 2 decades.
The odd open letter from the heirarchy wouldn't go astray either.
[www.bristolbearsrugby.com]
OK that's me done praising Glos and Bris!!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I take it that the ST Holders Q&A evenings fell by the wayside with the onset of Covid?
Quote:Old Bath TubQuote:Bath Hammer
GD has an incredibly low profile. I’ve no idea even what he looks like. What I do know is that there has been absolutely no improvement in the back line & it’s linking up with the forwards. Even against the (few) teams we beat we look inferior in that regard. The likes of Bristol & Wasps are miles ahead of us & even Newcastle showed us up. We have to find another backs/attack coach.
Agree, has GD actually given any interview ever ??
Seems to me that Hooper is the only coach permitted to give interviews.
Perhaps GD just isn't allowed to do anything with the backs outside of Hooper's game plan (assuming of course there is one)? If I were GD I'd move on to work with a DOR that permits me to do the job.
Bath will not start to compete with the best until the DOR problem is solved.
Dempsey
Ive looked him up, he actually is a real person, well he was anyway.
Ive looked him up, he actually is a real person, well he was anyway.
Quote:woodpecker
Dempsey
Ive looked him up, he actually is a real person, well he was anyway.
Was he with that nice looking lady on TV show with Makepeace 1980's
I think he's actually gone
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:Old Bath TubQuote:woodpecker
Dempsey
Ive looked him up, he actually is a real person, well he was anyway.
Was he with that nice looking lady on TV show with Makepeace 1980's
I think he's actually gone
Aaah Glynis Barber, Id rather have her than Dempsey and Hooper
Quote:P G Tips
SW, I know that club staff read this board- they have commented to me on it. PG
They may well read the board, but do they pay any attention at all? The don't appear to even acknowledge the supporter frustration relating to our poor results, the lack of a 10 etc etc
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:P G Tips
SW, I know that club staff read this board- they have commented to me on it. PG
They may well read the board, but do they pay any attention at all? The don't appear to even acknowledge the supporter frustration relating to our poor results, the lack of a 10 etc etc
Waiting for someone to ‘Manage Speak’ an answer !
“I understand that it’s very straightforward but that undermines our entire corporate structure and culture, our very ethos. Can you make it more complicated ?.
What ! You are asking us to ride the wave without a surfboard.
I’m sorry, I can’t. I’m busy all day proactively generating standards compliant core competencies.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
I noted a comment above about a player called JJ, I didn't see him in the match....is he a new player and was he on the bench?
I was horrified to hear from the commentators that the brilliant Rhys Priestland is holding out for a longer term contract...........this must mean that we have offered him a contract.
Please, please let Mr Priestland go so he can get the longer term contract he seeks elsewhere.
I was horrified to hear from the commentators that the brilliant Rhys Priestland is holding out for a longer term contract...........this must mean that we have offered him a contract.
Please, please let Mr Priestland go so he can get the longer term contract he seeks elsewhere.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
I noted a comment above about a player called JJ, I didn't see him in the match....is he a new player and was he on the bench?
I was horrified to hear from the commentators that the brilliant Rhys Priestland is holding out for a longer term contract...........this must mean that we have offered him a contract.
Please, please let Mr Priestland go so he can get the longer term contract he seeks elsewhere.
There's a player with the same name who plays for England, he's pretty good.
Anyone notice Zach Mercer's support running for Spencer's try, what is that all about? Highlights.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Anyone notice Zach Mercer's support running for Spencer's try, what is that all about? Highlights.
He has a lot of confidence in Spencer.
[quote BathMatt53][quote P G Tips] SW, I know that club staff read this board- they have commented to me on it.
I have fed back to the club our frustration at lack of Chron Q & As (A Chron decision dictated by staffing levels) and consequent information gap.
Obviously we cannot expect the club to comment on speculation and injury news is a sensitive issue too, but Bath rugby are aware that fans would like more communication, more info.
PG[/quote]
Is injury news sensitive PG? I don't think that it needs to be an essay on each one but something like this would be useful.
Detail could be. Imagine if you had just returned to play, would you want it known what your recent ailment had been? An invitation to the opposition to target that area.
PG
I have fed back to the club our frustration at lack of Chron Q & As (A Chron decision dictated by staffing levels) and consequent information gap.
Obviously we cannot expect the club to comment on speculation and injury news is a sensitive issue too, but Bath rugby are aware that fans would like more communication, more info.
PG[/quote]
Is injury news sensitive PG? I don't think that it needs to be an essay on each one but something like this would be useful.
Detail could be. Imagine if you had just returned to play, would you want it known what your recent ailment had been? An invitation to the opposition to target that area.
PG
Quote:OutsideBath
Seems to me that Hooper is the only coach permitted to give interviews.
Perhaps GD just isn't allowed to do anything with the backs outside of Hooper's game plan (assuming of course there is one)? If I were GD I'd move on to work with a DOR that permits me to do the job.
Bath will not start to compete with the best until the DOR problem is solved.
There’s no way that Hooper would not want GD to improve the performance of our backs & make us more of an attacking threat. As DOR Hooper is the natural guy to give interviews so that’s no bother. As DOR he shouldn’t be coaching the team but he can assess which coaches are delivering & which aren’t which leads right back to GD.
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:OutsideBath
Seems to me that Hooper is the only coach permitted to give interviews.
Perhaps GD just isn't allowed to do anything with the backs outside of Hooper's game plan (assuming of course there is one)? If I were GD I'd move on to work with a DOR that permits me to do the job.
Bath will not start to compete with the best until the DOR problem is solved.
There’s no way that Hooper would not want GD to improve the performance of our backs & make us more of an attacking threat. As DOR Hooper is the natural guy to give interviews so that’s no bother. As DOR he shouldn’t be coaching the team but he can assess which coaches are delivering & which aren’t which leads right back to GD.
Haven’t bothered to watch any games this season, but previously you did see other teams letting different coaches speak during the game. This never happens with Bath.
As for the team not delivering that has to lead back to Hooper, he’s the DOR and he has to take the fall for poor results.
The big danger is that we have become used to watching rugby on tv and can pick and choose which teams to watch, often recording them, spending more time with the family or playing golf during the day and seeing the rugby in the evening. I travel a round trip of 160 miles to watch Bath and each year I debate the cost both in money and time and decide to give it one more season in the hope we may come up with an attractive rugby team. Over the last 20 or so years there have been a few false dawns, but also plenty of unsatisfactory long journeys home.
If Bath do not address their shortcomings and find a way of becoming an attractive rugby team better than just lower to mid table then I wonder how many seats in the new stadium will be filled by people who may not be willing to give up a whole day to watch them play live.
If Bath do not address their shortcomings and find a way of becoming an attractive rugby team better than just lower to mid table then I wonder how many seats in the new stadium will be filled by people who may not be willing to give up a whole day to watch them play live.
Agree with much of that. I don't even mind mid-table 'mediocrity' if the rugby is good however. By that I mean we have clear plans/an identity, aim, where possible, to play attractive rugby, keep schoolboy errors to a minimum and don't invariably crack under pressure. If several sides do that, only better than us, I'd still be happy. I can live without titles, but expect us to be good enough to SOMETIMES be competitive enough to be in with a chance. It's the complete lack of ambition in our game plan and our inability to execute basic skills with any consistency that is finally leading me to question how much longer I keep buying a ST purely based on the principle that the law of averages dictates that eventually we have to come good!
Quote:TomReagan
Agree with much of that. I don't even mind mid-table 'mediocrity' if the rugby is good however. By that I mean we have clear plans/an identity, aim, where possible, to play attractive rugby, keep schoolboy errors to a minimum and don't invariably crack under pressure. If several sides do that, only better than us, I'd still be happy. I can live without titles, but expect us to be good enough to SOMETIMES be competitive enough to be in with a chance. It's the complete lack of ambition in our game plan and our inability to execute basic skills with any consistency that is finally leading me to question how much longer I keep buying a ST purely based on the principle that the law of averages dictates that eventually we have to come good!
Strictly, I think the law of averages means that eventually we might become average. "Gee, that would be neat" as Charlie Brown once observed.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
If it means we rise to the level of average then presumably others should fall to that level, which achieves the same result? If not, can I cling to the hope that every dog has his day, or does Charlie Brown have something to shoot that down with too?!
Quote:TomReagan
Agree with much of that. I don't even mind mid-table 'mediocrity' if the rugby is good however. By that I mean we have clear plans/an identity, aim, where possible, to play attractive rugby, keep schoolboy errors to a minimum and don't invariably crack under pressure. If several sides do that, only better than us, I'd still be happy. I can live without titles, but expect us to be good enough to SOMETIMES be competitive enough to be in with a chance. It's the complete lack of ambition in our game plan and our inability to execute basic skills with any consistency that is finally leading me to question how much longer I keep buying a ST purely based on the principle that the law of averages dictates that eventually we have to come good!
Not sure that the law of averages is relevant here.
However I agree with yours and Warrenball’s sentiments.
I opted to ‘suspend’ my season ticket, partly because of CV19, but partly because after many years and all of those false dawns, it gave me the chance to take a year out without jeopardising my seat.
If Sunday’s dross is typical of what is served up this year, then I am sorry to say but the decision for 21/22 will be easy.
Seems I'm going to have to give up on the law of averages, but with a salary cap, rather like in the NFL, it does create something not too far from a level playing field, then it's down to the coaches, DORs, individual players etc. Unlike in Prem football, where money almost always dictates matters, fans of 8 or 9 sides in rugby's Prem each season expect to be there or thereabouts. Success should be cyclical. Sides build dynasties, like the Pats in the NFL and as we did once, but they don't last forever, and for years I've hoped we'd put everything in place to be the sum of our parts and we never manage it. I do know that as soon as I give up my ST we'll suddenly become entertaining, perhaps in a great new stadium and I'll be watching us twice a season and forking out silly money for the pleasure! (As with the law of averages I also believe in the law of sod).
And to think, Tigers were playing with the handicap of not having their head coach present ....... (open goal here, who’s first?)
I do find myself wondering if I like club rugby less than I used to because of changes in the game or just year upon year of rubbish from Bath. I live a mile from Welford Road and have done for 15 years but haven’t been down to watch Bath there for about 5 years (granted two games fell in lockdown one I had tickets for as a mate wanted to go) as they aren’t worth paying the money for.
I am more likely to go to a random away game or go to a game in Bath because a game is quite a nice centrepiece to a day out or weekend away. There are only so many weekends in the same cities I want to go to so that won’t keep me going forever.
For all this misery of course, if we start building something that looks like an effective plan that makes the team look at least the sum of it’s parts then I would soon be inclined to invest a bit more attention, time and cash.
I am more likely to go to a random away game or go to a game in Bath because a game is quite a nice centrepiece to a day out or weekend away. There are only so many weekends in the same cities I want to go to so that won’t keep me going forever.
For all this misery of course, if we start building something that looks like an effective plan that makes the team look at least the sum of it’s parts then I would soon be inclined to invest a bit more attention, time and cash.
I have to say having watched the game twice now - the performance for me summed up Bath FC perfectly - One positive step forward followed by 3 or 4 rapid steps backwards.
I will quote my son in relation to Bath - Dull in terms of tactics, skills and mental attitude and to be fair it is hard to argue with that assessment.
I also find it quite hard to swallow some of Hoops comments - firstly prior to the match on Sunday he made a comment to Somerset Live in which he stated he was disappointed with the results against Falcons and Scarlets - but gave the impression that he expected a heavy loss against Chiefs - again I read another comment in relation to him saying you never come to Welford Rd expecting a Win?
Am I the only one thinking if a DoR has already got a mindset that some teams or venues means a defeat what does that project to the team - surely a DoR should be bullish almost to the point of arrogance and should expect his team to win wherever they go? especially if you have a side littered with so many so called international stars as we have?
I have been a Bath fan for more years than I care to remember when the team in almost obscurity regularly played Berry Hill, Lydney and Clifton to the heady days of Cups and even in those dark days where relegation threatened and we were really quite bad however in that season we never had a squad as good as this one but those players never gave up despite the odds being stacked against them. This season I don't think I can recall a side with the players we have being so poor - attitude, skills and game plan - I am getting so bored with watching them now - it is out of sheer belligerence now I think.
I am a fan of Hoops as a person and player - ditto with Hats and although concerned with the lack of experience I thought they had turned it around in the latter part of last season - but this season has shown it may just be a bridge too far and the reset button may have to be pushed for the 20th time - I personally think on form and performance we are probably the worst side in the premiership, I believe Gloucester and Warriors issues are easier to fix than ours if truth be told and no before the doom and gloomers start - this is a honest and personal view I am not calling for a cull I am purely looking at the bare facts being presented week in week out on the field - there is something very wrong with our team and those comments from Hoops really has concerned me - DoR's do not talk like that to the media.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:05:10:00:33 by Ali1969.
I will quote my son in relation to Bath - Dull in terms of tactics, skills and mental attitude and to be fair it is hard to argue with that assessment.
I also find it quite hard to swallow some of Hoops comments - firstly prior to the match on Sunday he made a comment to Somerset Live in which he stated he was disappointed with the results against Falcons and Scarlets - but gave the impression that he expected a heavy loss against Chiefs - again I read another comment in relation to him saying you never come to Welford Rd expecting a Win?
Am I the only one thinking if a DoR has already got a mindset that some teams or venues means a defeat what does that project to the team - surely a DoR should be bullish almost to the point of arrogance and should expect his team to win wherever they go? especially if you have a side littered with so many so called international stars as we have?
I have been a Bath fan for more years than I care to remember when the team in almost obscurity regularly played Berry Hill, Lydney and Clifton to the heady days of Cups and even in those dark days where relegation threatened and we were really quite bad however in that season we never had a squad as good as this one but those players never gave up despite the odds being stacked against them. This season I don't think I can recall a side with the players we have being so poor - attitude, skills and game plan - I am getting so bored with watching them now - it is out of sheer belligerence now I think.
I am a fan of Hoops as a person and player - ditto with Hats and although concerned with the lack of experience I thought they had turned it around in the latter part of last season - but this season has shown it may just be a bridge too far and the reset button may have to be pushed for the 20th time - I personally think on form and performance we are probably the worst side in the premiership, I believe Gloucester and Warriors issues are easier to fix than ours if truth be told and no before the doom and gloomers start - this is a honest and personal view I am not calling for a cull I am purely looking at the bare facts being presented week in week out on the field - there is something very wrong with our team and those comments from Hoops really has concerned me - DoR's do not talk like that to the media.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:01:05:10:00:33 by Ali1969.
We could do a lot worse than sign this guy as a back and defence coach. John Mulvihill he has just left Cardiff Blues, It also might explain why Jarod Evans wants out as well. Does it also affect RP's discussions?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
We could do a lot worse than sign this guy as a back and defence coach. John Mulvihill he has just left Cardiff Blues, It also might explain why Jarod Evans wants out as well. Does it also affect RP's discussions?
Didn't he get pushed out because he was rubbish?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
We could do a lot worse than sign this guy as a back and defence coach. John Mulvihill he has just left Cardiff Blues, It also might explain why Jarod Evans wants out as well. Does it also affect RP's discussions?
Didn't he get pushed out because he was rubbish?
Very difficult to say at Cardiff to be honest, there is massive interference and tight budget control at the club from the top. I know a back at the club who rates him highly and he likes to play youngsters and gets stick for that. You are probably right in that we probably need a stronger personality to impose a backs style.
We were all incredibly impressed and excited when we landed Girvan Dempsey. He came with a good reputation. The only insider insight we've had on him was from Freddie Burns who said he's a good coach with good ideas who just gets ignored by Hooper. It's absolutely pointless speculating about a replacement when it's so blindingly obvious where the problem lies. What self-respecting backs coach would bother even sending in their CV? I maintain that you could give Brian Ashton a couple of hours with Saturday's run-on 15 and the improvement would be obvious.
This is what he does:
Dempsey drives the evolution of our attacking game, leading the coaching delivery for Attack and Backs play. He works closely with the coaching team and half-backs to develop the game we want to play, as well as week-to-week performances.
Dempsey drives the evolution of our attacking game, leading the coaching delivery for Attack and Backs play. He works closely with the coaching team and half-backs to develop the game we want to play, as well as week-to-week performances.
Based on the evidence, that's precisely what he doesn't do.
Can I make a complaint about Spencer now? Although it's not really a complaint about Spencer, it's more of a comment on formulaic rugby across the board.
Quite often when we are in or on the edge of our 22 a forward will make a really dynamic bust, gaining those 5-6 critical metres and momentum that make you assume that it's worth having a crack and keeping the forward momentum going while the defence is back-pedalling. Instead of following it up with another drive, Spencer then stops the whole thing and goes through the glacial box-kick routine. It's really maddening (and most teams do it, not just us).
It seems to happen so often that I'm wondering .... is there a defensive strategy to 'allow' the ball-carrier out of their 22, so that the kicker only has the option of keeping the ball on the pitch?
Can I make a complaint about Spencer now? Although it's not really a complaint about Spencer, it's more of a comment on formulaic rugby across the board.
Quite often when we are in or on the edge of our 22 a forward will make a really dynamic bust, gaining those 5-6 critical metres and momentum that make you assume that it's worth having a crack and keeping the forward momentum going while the defence is back-pedalling. Instead of following it up with another drive, Spencer then stops the whole thing and goes through the glacial box-kick routine. It's really maddening (and most teams do it, not just us).
It seems to happen so often that I'm wondering .... is there a defensive strategy to 'allow' the ball-carrier out of their 22, so that the kicker only has the option of keeping the ball on the pitch?
Quote:Kidney StoneQuote:TomReagan
Agree with much of that. I don't even mind mid-table 'mediocrity' if the rugby is good however. By that I mean we have clear plans/an identity, aim, where possible, to play attractive rugby, keep schoolboy errors to a minimum and don't invariably crack under pressure. If several sides do that, only better than us, I'd still be happy. I can live without titles, but expect us to be good enough to SOMETIMES be competitive enough to be in with a chance. It's the complete lack of ambition in our game plan and our inability to execute basic skills with any consistency that is finally leading me to question how much longer I keep buying a ST purely based on the principle that the law of averages dictates that eventually we have to come good!
Not sure that the law of averages is relevant here.
However I agree with yours and Warrenball’s sentiments.
I opted to ‘suspend’ my season ticket, partly because of CV19, but partly because after many years and all of those false dawns, it gave me the chance to take a year out without jeopardising my seat.
If Sunday’s dross is typical of what is served up this year, then I am sorry to say but the decision for 21/22 will be easy.
Totally agree, I’m in the same position !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
I like to have a season ticket because it gives my weekend structure and I know where I am at 2.15 every other Saturday (Hang on shurely shome mishtake here - Ed)
Redpath has his head screwed on at least
Until this group of players stop losing possession every ten seconds, they'll never improve. That's been the one critical, lingering issue for years. Whether it's terrible passing, knock ons, offloads to the opposition, losing a lineout, getting isolated/turned over.
It's an attitude problem because late in games when we're chasing a score, they actually look after the ball fairly well, ish. But only because they have to.
It's great to finally hear someone at the club identify it as an issue.
Quote:"I think at the moment we are shooting ourselves in the foot a lot. We aren't taking our chances and the discipline in the first half killed us off. It has been the story of our season really. In the first game we ran into touch too many times and gave the ball away too much, this time it was penalties and again giving the ball away too many times.
Until this group of players stop losing possession every ten seconds, they'll never improve. That's been the one critical, lingering issue for years. Whether it's terrible passing, knock ons, offloads to the opposition, losing a lineout, getting isolated/turned over.
It's an attitude problem because late in games when we're chasing a score, they actually look after the ball fairly well, ish. But only because they have to.
It's great to finally hear someone at the club identify it as an issue.
If Cam Redpath can see it and is willing to talk about it, make him captain, cos no one else is.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Agree with your last comment Optimist, I think it is just part of the modern way teams are coached where the coaches are blinded by the information overload and forget how simply rugby really is. As all the teams are up loading vast amounts of similar information they all tend to follow the herd - look how quickly all other teams followed Exeter with the quick tap on the 5m line instead of scrum or line out.
Time to take off the straight jacket and get some old fashioned Brian Ashton type thinking and give players the opportunity to think and try things. This goes back a long way, Mike Catt was sacked for thinking on his feet and not playing by numbers.
Time to take off the straight jacket and get some old fashioned Brian Ashton type thinking and give players the opportunity to think and try things. This goes back a long way, Mike Catt was sacked for thinking on his feet and not playing by numbers.
Is it just Brian Ashton that coaches this wisdom, there must be a present day equivalent surely, any suggestions?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Is it just Brian Ashton that coaches this wisdom, there must be a present day equivalent surely, any suggestions?
Has to Pat Lam doesn't it? 'Go out there and have fun and do your stuff'.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
Is it just Brian Ashton that coaches this wisdom, there must be a present day equivalent surely, any suggestions?
Has to Pat Lam doesn't it? 'Go out there and have fun and do your stuff'.
Most of all, it's having every player in the same mindset and alive to possibilities at every single nano-second. If one player wants to put some pace on the game - quick tap penalty, for example - you need all 15 reacting instantly to that intent. I think there's still a lot of conservatism hard-wired into several of our players, so even when we do move the ball around, there just isn't that razor-sharp work in support.
Yes, the barbarians way - hey we may have just met each other but all of us know exactly what is expected of us.
To a lesser extent I thought that most of the NZ aeroterra games had a similar feel, i.e. try and outscore the opposition through all out attack and let the defence take care of itself (or not). Makes for an attractive product, whether it comes off or not.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
To a lesser extent I thought that most of the NZ aeroterra games had a similar feel, i.e. try and outscore the opposition through all out attack and let the defence take care of itself (or not). Makes for an attractive product, whether it comes off or not.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
The regular criticism I saw (particularly last season, maaaaybe less so this one) is that on the rare occasion we make a break, the next phase is almost always a forward punching it up that allows the opposition defence to settle, rather than spreading it again to fast guys or offloading against a fractured line.
Quote:hasta
The regular criticism I saw (particularly last season, maaaaybe less so this one) is that on the rare occasion we make a break, the next phase is almost always a forward punching it up that allows the opposition defence to settle, rather than spreading it again to fast guys or offloading against a fractured line.
Yes, I thought that had left with Jamie Roberts but is seems not.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
There's a great story about Geoffrey Boycott. When his batting partner says to him, mid-wicket, 'I've worked out how to pick this guy's wrong 'un', Geoffrey replies, 'Aye, I worked that out ages ago, but don't tell them boogers', pointing at their team-mates.
I feel like our forwards have similar contempt for the backs. 'Don't give them boogers the ball - all they ever do is try to avoid running into people'.
I feel like our forwards have similar contempt for the backs. 'Don't give them boogers the ball - all they ever do is try to avoid running into people'.
The answer might be avoid going to ground in the first place. The onus is very much weighted against the attacking side. I wonder if mauling should be made safer, at the moment it ends up as a turnover after about 5-10 secs. What is the rationale behind that? Should we make competing for the ball in a maul legal?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Certainly should have been illegal to compete for the ball in a maul about 3 minutes into the game 
Quote:Stopsy
Certainly should have been illegal to compete for the ball in a maul about 3 minutes into the game
I think you have to assume that the forwards, and perhaps Ben Youngs, know where the ball is. No malice intended but it was a funny moment!
Certainly the best dummy sold all match! Everyone thought Tigers had the ball with the exception of your player.
Quote:Stopsy
Certainly the best dummy sold all match! Everyone thought Tigers had the ball with the exception of your player.
Reading the board critics on our lack of skills I am surprised that our player didn’t cough up the ball and give it to a tigger!
I don't think we need to become the globetrotters. But offloading is a key part of the game that we don't seem to utilise at all.
I don't know what the current roles in ou coaching team are labeled, but the Redpath article suggests there's a lot of "forwards coach" and "backs coach" about it. That seem so old fashioned school boy rugby to me. For me the game today breaks down so much better into "attack", "defence" and "set piece".
You want continuity and cohesion between all the elements of your attack (and defence): breakdown, offload, distribution, kicking and so on. If you've a forwards and backs coach there's no one person to thread all those things together and you get a natural divide between forwards and backs.
You want continuity and cohesion between all the elements of your attack (and defence): breakdown, offload, distribution, kicking and so on. If you've a forwards and backs coach there's no one person to thread all those things together and you get a natural divide between forwards and backs.
Is that the role of the DOR Dan? Set the style/direction all other coaches align to deliver. I agree that the days of "I'm a prop, I scrummage, anything else is a bonus" are well gone.
Quote:DanWiley
the Redpath article suggests there's a lot of "forwards coach" and "backs coach" about it. That seem so old fashioned school boy rugby to me
Yes that’s a very good point Dan.
God that takes me back!!
A million years ago I had an idea and played a practice match by turning the forwards into backs and backs into forwards.
It was complete shambles........but it created a greater sense of awareness about what was going on on the whole pitch and a respect, albeit grudging, from the backs on forwards and vice versa.
A million years ago I had an idea and played a practice match by turning the forwards into backs and backs into forwards.
It was complete shambles........but it created a greater sense of awareness about what was going on on the whole pitch and a respect, albeit grudging, from the backs on forwards and vice versa.
I actually think the DoR role is more abstract than that. He might have a general philosophy he wants to implement, naively: power play, expensive, all court, but the details of how is what a head coach does. I think a head coach has a similar relation to an attack coach, though a little less abstract. The attack coach is charged with how to produce that effect by combining the various aspects of the attacking game.
I think one problem we, and others, may well have is we don't respect that hierarchy, head coaches doing the job of attack coaches, DoRs doing the job of head coaches. But I don't see how you can have an effective separation of concerns with a forwards and backs coach.
If I want my backs to hit rucks, in attack, they need to be the same group as my forwards. Treated more or less the same. If I've got forwards standing in wide spaces, I need them to be coached just like the backs otherwise not only are they a waste, they'll get in the way. Ideally I'd like my forwards to be able to handle the ball every bit as good as a typical back.
In that context, what does a forwards coach do? What does a backs coach do? Both roles are meaningless, and so ineffective.
Incidentally, understanding and implementing this structure (and it's succession) is the job of a DoR.
I think one problem we, and others, may well have is we don't respect that hierarchy, head coaches doing the job of attack coaches, DoRs doing the job of head coaches. But I don't see how you can have an effective separation of concerns with a forwards and backs coach.
If I want my backs to hit rucks, in attack, they need to be the same group as my forwards. Treated more or less the same. If I've got forwards standing in wide spaces, I need them to be coached just like the backs otherwise not only are they a waste, they'll get in the way. Ideally I'd like my forwards to be able to handle the ball every bit as good as a typical back.
In that context, what does a forwards coach do? What does a backs coach do? Both roles are meaningless, and so ineffective.
Incidentally, understanding and implementing this structure (and it's succession) is the job of a DoR.
I guesss 'forwards coaches' are now just the specialist roles of scrummaging and lineouts.
Otherwise, as you say, coaches are coaching attack and/or defence. I think Sam Warburton has been appointed 'breakdown' coach with Wales ... and his comment was that the breakdown is just as much of a specialist area as the scrum and the lineout.
The broader problem with the game is that coaching is so completely dominated by ex-forwards and by the dictum of 'forwards decide who wins the game, backs by how much'.
Otherwise, as you say, coaches are coaching attack and/or defence. I think Sam Warburton has been appointed 'breakdown' coach with Wales ... and his comment was that the breakdown is just as much of a specialist area as the scrum and the lineout.
The broader problem with the game is that coaching is so completely dominated by ex-forwards and by the dictum of 'forwards decide who wins the game, backs by how much'.
As I say, there is certainly room for a set piece coach. I think a "backs" coach is equally anachronistic, if it ever had a time. Most backs coaches I've experience have spent HOURS going through single phase, first phase ball running "backs moves". It's really a pretty small part of attack. I'll accept you want to do some of it, but the real skill is surely linking from phase to phase and as soon as your past that first phase your forwards are going to be involved and your backs coach becomes an attack coach.
We've seen Bath fail at this so many times, two or three phases in we run out of ideas and either go sideways or kick it.
A breakdown coach could be a good idea, though you might end up with too many cooks.
Any I appreciate you probably don't care about my coaching structure philosophy, but it does feel a bit like we might be making the wrong division here.
We've seen Bath fail at this so many times, two or three phases in we run out of ideas and either go sideways or kick it.
A breakdown coach could be a good idea, though you might end up with too many cooks.
Any I appreciate you probably don't care about my coaching structure philosophy, but it does feel a bit like we might be making the wrong division here.
Irrespective of the structure, or the roles, or the titles .... i just have the overwhelming feeling that doesn't really get much say in things. Maybe he is treated like an old school backs coach .... go an practice a few moves while we do the important stuff. And then when the backs call a set piece move on the pitch, we either give away a penalty or the number 8 picks it up, or the lineout goes to pot.
Was that a deliberate swapping of expensive for expansive there Dan?
I was hoping Flouw would become our breakdown specialist but sadly not to be.
I was hoping Flouw would become our breakdown specialist but sadly not to be.
No, that was a genuine typo. I might keep it though along with the celery cap and porp.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
God that takes me back!!
A million years ago I had an idea and played a practice match by turning the forwards into backs and backs into forwards.
It was complete shambles........but it created a greater sense of awareness about what was going on on the whole pitch and a respect, albeit grudging, from the backs on forwards and vice versa.
I did that BSJ- with a youth team. Just before kickoff I briefed the forwards of one team to let their backs have as much ball as possible and the other to stick it up the jumper and keep it to themselves.
After 20 minutes i stopped it and asked the backs (really all forwards) how they felt about what they had just experienced.Most of them got the message and one bright spark on the side who had lots of ball pointed out that giving the ball to the backs every time was predictable for the defence and could actually put the backs under pressure.
Much of the practice was shambolic - but as a learning experience it was pretty useful.
PG
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