Bath
STICK OR TWIST? AUTUMN NATIONS CUP
Jones: no experiment?
By PG Tips
November 11 2020
This week sees the beginning of the Autumn Nations Cup, replacing the Autumn Internationals. The tournament is a move to generate TV revenue to offset the financial crisis Covid 19 has brought. This temporary competition follows closely after the recently completed 6 Nations, with the same protagonists joined by Fiji and Georgia. While it may lack the appeal of visits by the southern hemisphere giants, there will be a tournament winner and possibly selection experiments to generate interest.
The tournament format gives each participating nation four fixtures, so avoiding additional international fixture congestion. There will be two pools of four countries in the tournament. Each team will play the teams in their group once by the end of the third weekend. Based on the group rankings coming into the final weekend, each team will face the team ranked in the same position in the opposite pool. This means the teams who come first in Group A and Group B will compete for first place, the teams who come second will compete for third place and so on. The Pools are:
Group A Group B
England France
Ireland Scotland
Wales Italy
Georgia Fiji
At first glance, Group A is the tougher Group. Georgia, recently humbled by Scotland look to be the whipping boys, even if their scrummaging may test opponents, while 6 Nations evidence would suggest that England and Ireland will fight it out for leadership of the Group. Wales though cannot be written off. They very nearly snatched their Twickenham 6 Nations match from England’s grasp and will have home advantage against England this time. Having lost 5 games in a row, Wayne Pivac clearly has work to do to return them to winning ways, not helped by injury absences – particularly in the back row where Moriarty and Navidi have been sorely missed. For Ireland the loss of Ringrose threatens to blunt their attack and there are concerns over the form of veteran halfbacks Murray and Sexton. They will though be implacable competitors who cannot be taken lightly. England would appear to be in a strong position, if Eddie Jones can get the balance of his selection right and if they can adapt tactics mid game as they clearly failed to do in the first half against Italy. Much will depend on Jones’ selection approach. Will he experiment, as many commentators are urging him to do? Not for the first time, he is giving off mixed messages. He won’t, he says be “experimenting” but “sometimes we might have a longer-term view of what is down the track to ensure we get our selection balance right." He has even spoken of fielding 9 forwards, using a “hybrid player” to spring a surprise. His squad included 8 uncapped players when named a few weeks ago, plus a further 5 with fewer than 5 caps, so some blooding of new players seems likely. England’s opener, against Georgia would seem the ideal opportunity to give several of these their first start.
Group B offers France the chance to build further towards their home World Cup in 2023. Unlucky to lose out to England in the 6 Nations, due to their indiscipline against Scotland and Ireland’s late resistance in Paris, their form suggests should be favourites to take the group. Antoine Dupont, 6 Nations Player of the Year, and Gregory Alldritt, their outstanding forward give them a controlling and exciting core, ably assisted by Romain Ntamack. Unfortunately, the deal Les Bleus have with their clubs means that no player can play more than 3 times this autumn. Their style may remain unchanged, their Shaun Edwards defence as strong, but will replacement personnel strengthen or weaken their cause? Scotland’s last 3 6 Nations matches saw them on a rising curve, but their progress may now be hampered by loss of their first two choices of flyhalf. They have the capable Duncan Weir to step into the breach, but can he produce the occasional magic moment, like Russell or Hastings? In his absence a lot of responsibility will rest on the shoulders of captain Stuart Hogg and scrum halves Price and Horne. Playing both France and Fiji at home, they may be praying for wind and gales to blunt their opponents running and handling games. Italy, putting their trust in youth, have shown some flair in recent defeats and in Jake Polledri have one of the standout forwards of the 6 nations. If they can continue recent improvements, they should perform better than Georgia and head off calls for their relegation from the 6 Nations. They will look to build confidence through performance in preparation for that tournament. Hosting Fiji in late November, they will fancy their chances. The Fijians could be the surprise package, given their athleticism and zest for the running game, but much depends on who is available to them and whether they can cope with the demands of a wet European winter.
So the draw, as well as recent form, favours France to win, but whoever they face in the first -place playoff- England, Ireland or Wales will have had a tougher route to the final. Often, the team forged in fire emerges victorious. Outcomes may eventually rest on how individual coaches view the tournament: as an aim in itself, a competition to win, or a chance to experiment with new faces? Stick or twist in gambling parlance. Some may choose to twist, others will have the choice forced upon them by injury and availability.
And what is Bath’s interest? For some the Nations Cup, as with the Autumn Internationals, is a distraction from the Premiership and a drain on resources, losing key players to international rugby when they would prefer to see them in Blue, Black and White. The impact on Bath this autumn is heavy, 8 in England’s squad and one with Wales. Of the England contingent, Dunn and Obano are newcomers and Cokanasiga has been out for a year. The Georgia game would seem a good time to give them all a game. Ewels has been talked up by Matt Proudfoot as a leader, so may get a chance to captain that team, even if only in the event of Farrell being substituted. Whoever is chosen, fans will hope for rotation so that some are released to play for the club- assuming RFU Covid management regulations permit.
Whoever plays, whatever the outcomes, let us enjoy the return of regular rugby, hope for an exciting tournament and that Bath’s contingent acquit themselves well, gain valuable experience and return uninjured to take their part in the Premiership season.
Possible England Squad v Georgia:
Genge, Dunn, Stuart, Ewels, Itoje, Willis, Curry, Vunipola. Robson, Farrell. Cokanasiga, Lawrence, Marchant, Thorley. Daly.
Replacements: George, Marler, Sinckler, Hill, Earl. Youngs, Umaga, Malins.
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11/11/2020 08:48
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:11:17:16:21:31 by P G Tips.
According to RFU:
[www.englandrugby.com]
Elliot Daly and Joe Marler return after injuries, while Alex Mitchell has also joined up with the squad after taking part in some of England’s training camps in October.
PG
Given how much Eddie talks up his innovative approach to rugby, one would hope that 'hoofing it up in the air' is booted into touch. It's great to have some International rugby on, but now, more than ever, there's a need - possible even a duty - to ensure that the game is entertaining.
Quote:Optimist
France having the perfect excuse for rotating may well help them in the World Cup long-run, but handicaps them a bit for this tournament.
Given how much Eddie talks up his innovative approach to rugby, one would hope that 'hoofing it up in the air' is booted into touch. It's great to have some International rugby on, but now, more than ever, there's a need - possible even a duty - to ensure that the game is entertaining.
Hope so Opti, I'd have like to see if the the 'hoofing it' laws worked. (50:22) At least it would stop the ping pong!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
"Ulster fly-half Billy Burns is in line to make his debut from the bench."
The one that got away? According to their Headmaster at Beechen cliff, the more talented and better player of the Burns brothers.
PG
Quote:P G Tips
The one that got away? PG
Add him to the list of all the others who people on this site think are the one that got away...!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Optimist
Well, given that he is just about the perfect profile of the 10 we currently need, I'd say that he would be quite close to the top of that list BM! Weirdly, he never gets talked about in the same way as Freddie does/did in relation to Bath Rugby.
I've seen him in Pro 14 games, not flashy just gets on with it. He done well at Ulster.
This is a serious underperforming side. Which on paper contains quite a few members of the next Lions Squad.
Wales: Leigh Halfpenny; Liam Williams, Jonathan Davies, Owen Watkin, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies; Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Shane Lewis-Hughes, Justin Tipuric, Taulupe Faletau.
It is all a bit confused at the moment.
15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 43 caps)
14. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 51 caps)
13. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 30 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 57 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (c) (Saracens, 83 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 19 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 50 caps)
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
4. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
5. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 65 caps)
6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 39 caps)
7. Jack Willis (Wasps, uncapped)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 52 caps)
FINISHERS
16. Tom Dunn, (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 60 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 36 caps)
19. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)
20. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 24 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 3 caps)
22. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
23. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 3 caps)
Quote:9215
Good preview, thanks, though I’d like to point out that the teams who come second will compete for third place
Quite right 9215- thanks for pointing that out. Actually I took a direct (cut & paste) quote from World Rugby's website:
[www.world.rugby]
PG
Adopted player 2020/21 Beno 'the Transformer' Obano
Adopted player 2019/20 Jonathan 'JJ' Joseph.The Jink Joseph.
Adopted player 2018/19 Adopted player 2018/19 Semesa 'The Rock' Rokoduguni
The current Welsh sides is going through the same problems which we faced after 2004. In the 2007 6N, our front 5 was: T Payne (Wasps), G Chuter (Leicester), J White (Leicester), M Corry (Leicester), T Palmer (Wasps). That was very different from 2003.
The replacements in that game were: L Mears (Bath), S Turner (Sale Sharks), L Deacon (Leicester), M Lund (Sale Sharks), S Perry (Bristol), S Geraghty (London Irish), J Noon (Newcastle).
Quote:woodpecker
You can get 7:2 on wales beating Ireland, they arent that bad are they?
Defensively they have been pretty poor, still got dangerous backs though but Halfpenny should be replaced by Liam Williams I reckon.
Quote:cb2
In the 2007 6N, our front 5 was: T Payne (Wasps), G Chuter (Leicester), J White (Leicester), M Corry (Leicester), T Palmer (Wasps). That was very different from 2003.
The replacements in that game were: L Mears (Bath), S Turner (Sale Sharks), L Deacon (Leicester), M Lund (Sale Sharks), S Perry (Bristol), S Geraghty (London Irish), J Noon (Newcastle).
Good grief! That is a very interesting observation. I still maintain that Tipuric is an absolutely fantastic rugby player.
France v Fiji: Autumn Nations Cup match cancelled after Covid-19 cases unfortunately. Hope they are all OK.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Wales 6 straight defeats now. They were really poor at scrum and lineout. Some good defence on their line saved it from being close to 50.
Pivac needs to ditch his aged leader and a few others too, and inject some new younger blood, and perhaps find a front row worthy of the name from somewhere.
It's not as if Ireland played particularly well either.
Crazy number of penalties in the match though.
Never looked like crossing the line, Wales have problems up front, line out and scrum. You know they are in problems when Halfpenny gets all the points.
P.S. Sheedy can't defend.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:11:13:21:01:25 by shipwrecked.
Quote:“ The sporting result of this match will be determined at a meeting on Monday with the designated tournament sub-com”BathMatt53
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54933133
France v Fiji: Autumn Nations Cup match cancelled after Covid-19 cases unfortunately. Hope they are all OK.
[www.autumnnationscup.com]
So they haven’t got firm rules in place for what happens if a match is cancelled due to COVID-19! And they are going to decide after the other matches in the round have taken place...
France getting the “win” and not missing out on a potential England v France final, probably would be right, but why not say that when the match was cancelled.
Shame the France game is off, potentially better to watch.
Quote:dcshQuote:“ The sporting result of this match will be determined at a meeting on Monday with the designated tournament sub-com”BathMatt53
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54933133
France v Fiji: Autumn Nations Cup match cancelled after Covid-19 cases unfortunately. Hope they are all OK.
[www.autumnnationscup.com]
So they haven’t got firm rules in place for what happens if a match is cancelled due to COVID-19! And they are going to decide after the other matches in the round have taken place...
France getting the “win” and not missing out on a potential England v France final, probably would be right, but why not say that when the match was cancelled.
Sounds a bit like they will be deciding who the want to go through!
NOT - why do so many governing bodies appear to leave themselves open to accusations of corruption?
Scottish scrum utterly destroyed. Still lack that final cutting edge though.
Quote:I just needed 1 more point from Scotland but no, they ruined my spread bet. On for a tidy little return after Ireland did the bizDorset Boy
Italy run out of steam yet again after a good 65 minutes.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Emily Scarratt
Never in doubt.
Emily Scarratt maintains her 100% kicking record for the afternoon as England nudge even further ahead.
FT
Any chance our youngsters could have Emily Scarratt as a kicking coach?
Quote:shipwrecked
Why does Farrell kick 15 m from the line? Very frustrating.
And Billy wants to bully rather than picking good options.
Quote:Dead leg maybe?CoochieCoo
Brilliant break by JJ but what happened after he passed the ball!
Quote:shipwrecked
Why does Farrell kick 15 m from the line? Very frustrating.
Dreadful decision. Sort of thing where TV cuts to the coach banging his fist on his desk. But it’s Faz.
"England 26-0 Georgia
Matt Dawson
Former England scrum-half on BBC Radio 5 Live
What makes it so much more effective is having Joseph on the wing with the intelligence of a 13 is he knows where the weaknesses are. It must give him an advantage."
"Is it potentially a calf, or a hamstring or a muscle tear? It is a blow, not just for this week, as he is such a versatile player."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:11:14:16:21:12 by Optimist.
Quote:Optimist
Great that Eddie taking the opportunity to learn more about Bill V, Maro, Youngs and George, and less about Willis, Dunn and Robson.
I said earlier he wants 78 minutes out of all of them.
@#$%& stupid management.
Quote:????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????hooter
Exeter 33 Georgia 0
Quote:Mike the Taxi
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/other-sport/eddie-jones-eases-injury-fears-4702166 - Jones "JJ Back Spasm, back next week"
Thats a relief he landed badly after giving the scoring pass, bit like JJ of old!
Also, what has happened to May? He has millions of credits in the bank but his current game is littered with errors.
Quote:cb2
When Cipriani chipped through for the winning try against SA, Farrell had a strange look on his face. Now Farrell is trying the trick whenever he can.
When Faz tried that chip through for Daly, it was the sort of moment that would have head coaches throwing their coffee cup and banging the desk. He's great in a dog-fight, but I hate that mentality that that's what you have to gear absolutely everything around.
Quote:cb2
what has happened to May? He has millions of credits in the bank but his current game is littered with errors.
Ingesting and then having to regurgitate this sort of garbage probably doesn't help: 'England wing Jonny May says head coach Eddie Jones has set them the "exciting" challenge of becoming the best team to have ever played'
A "guest" side in the 6N would be a better option. If the clubs would agree to it, then a side made up of all the best players who play their club rugby in Europe. It will never happen, due to funding and politics, but it would be fun to watch.
Piutau, Gopperth, Polledri, Vakatawa, Imhoff, De Klerk. They might win the thing.
Imagine if you gave Aussies, Kiwis etc a way of playing their club rugby in Europe, whilst also playing in the 6Ns!! Not quite the same as representing your country in a Test match, but it would, well.... stir things up a bit!
Quote:shipwrecked
So that would be relegation then Opti if there was a second tier competition of course, I thought you were moving towards ring fencing? Anyway, first thing would be to set up the second tier competition!
There is a second tier competition already isn't there, that features Georgia, Romania, Spain etc
Yes - reluctantly - for the Premiership. Not for 6Ns.
Quote:Optimist
'I thought you were moving towards ring fencing?'
Yes - reluctantly - for the Premiership. Not for 6Ns.
I actually agree with you, I'm a bit surprised there isn't a second tier tournament, but if its not supported in the country then its a money/TV issue. Who would that competition involve Georgia, Spain, Germany ?
Georgia, Portugal, Spain, Russia , Belgium, Romania.
There are other divisions below those teams.
PG
[en.wikipedia.org]
PG
Aaah he’s growing it for charity fair enough
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020:11:22:16:13:44 by Woodpecker .
Quote:Mike the Taxi
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55048325 - AW and LCD Back in Squad
So Joe C, Thorley and May are the wingers Lets hope JJ continues on the wing, can't see Joe C playing if Eddie was watching at the weekend!
Joe C needs that like a hole in the head. A week of getting to know his team-mates, not travelling up and down the M4, and preparing for hopefully getting another 80 minutes under his belt for Bath on Saturday, would - I imagine - do him a lot more good.
Sadly I doubt the back will get much ball, I'm expecting an Exeter like tactic from the lineout, following an ariel bombardment!
If that was a building society that would be great.......but it isn't.
Quote:shipwrecked
I'm expecting ..... an ariel bombardment!
They're going to be dropping soap powder on us from a great height?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:OptimistQuote:shipwrecked
I'm expecting ..... an ariel bombardment!
They're going to be dropping soap powder on us from a great height?
Its inevitable in these Covid times that the players need to be in a bubble I'm afraid!
Quote:OptimistQuote:shipwrecked
I'm expecting ..... an ariel bombardment!
They're going to be dropping soap powder on us from a great height?
A Tempest of it!
PG
Quote:BathMatt53
Wales are 6-1 which is the same as the bet I took on Bristol beating Wasps at the weekend (a plan which came unstuck in the last 2 mins of the match).
Bath is also 6-1
Quote:Optimist
Very erudite PGT. But Shipwrecked is clearly the 'font' of all knowledge.
Well they were shipwrecked after all!
That is a massive loss for them and a boost for Englands chances of winning this meaningless trophy!
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