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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:04:02:21:59:57 by Darraghgirl.

We’ve got 4 home matches and 3 away matches left in the league. The home matches v Quins, Glaws, Newcastle and a Bath (who might be resting players) are must wins if we want top 4. Tigers away I imagine would be the rest week for the England boys and then we have Sale and Saints away to try and nick a win of some bonus points.

Toulon away I imagine we’ll go fully loaded too but if we lose that the week after will be another rest. If we win, then Toulouse at home which could be interesting.

Quote:

TommyKentish
We’ve got 4 home matches and 3 away matches left in the league. The home matches v Quins, Glaws, Newcastle and a Bath (who might be resting players) are must wins if we want top 4. Tigers away I imagine would be the rest week for the England boys and then we have Sale and Saints away to try and nick a win of some bonus points.
Toulon away I imagine we’ll go fully loaded too but if we lose that the week after will be another rest. If we win, then Toulouse at home which could be interesting.

It’ll be Toulouse away in Europe if we beat Toulon

Winning the 4 home league games with bonus points should be enough for top 4 - think we’ll need 2 other away wins for any chance of top 2

God getting Leicestered in Toulouse is probably not good for morale for the remainder of the season!

It would be hilarious if both ourselves and Toulon are trying desperately to lose our match to avoid facing them. Guess the difference is Toulon would get to play them at home rather than away as they are somehow seeded higher.

Don’t think it will be a Sarries try-fest like last season, unless the game plan has changed over the last 8 weeks - let’s hope so. Think Andy OC will be on bench and will be great to see him back.

[www.telegraph.co.uk] Speaking of AOC, great article on the injury and his recovery. WARNING picture of injury at top of the article.

Sounds like he has been through hell unsurprisingly given the seriousness of his injury. I do wonder if he really is ready for a high profile game in the premiership. Given that all the England lads available this week I’d imagine Leicester away a more likely return in some capacity.

Saracens Men team to play Harlequins:

1 Eroni Mawi

2 Jamie George

3 Marco Riccioni

4 Maro Itoje (c)

5 Hugh Tizard

6 Theo McFarland

7 Juan Martin Gonzalez

8 Tom Willis

9 Ivan van Zyl

10 Fergus Burke

11 Rotimi Segun

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Alex Lozowski

14 Tobias Elliott

15 Elliot Daly

Replacements:

16 Theo Dan

17 Phil Brantingham

18 Alec Clarey

19 Nick Isiekwe

20 Andy Onyeama-Christie

21 Nathan Michelow

22 Gareth Simpson

23 Alex Goode

Quins team:

15. Leigh Halfpenny (8)
14. Rodrigo Isgro (8)
13. Oscar Beard (69)
12. Ben Waghorn (10)
11. Nick David (67)
10. Jarrod Evans (33)
9. Will Porter (38)
1. Wyn Jones (15)
2. Jack Walker (81)
3. Titi Lamositele (13)
4. Joe Launchbury (36)
5. Stephan Lewies (80)
6. Jack Kenningham (65)
7. Will Evans (108)
8. Alex Dombrandt © (150)

IMPACT PLAYERS
16. Sam Riley (65)
17. Jordan Els (44)
18. Will Hobson (17)
19. Irne Herbst (61)
20. George Hammond (76)
21. Jake Murray (10)
22. Jamie Benson (17)
23. Tyrone Green (87)

Unavailable: Dillon Lewis (Bicep), Danny Care (Knee), Cassius Cleaves (Hamstring), Lucas Friday (ACL), Cadan Murley (Foot), Dino Lamb (Shoulder), James Chisholm (Achilles), Nathan Jibulu (Shoulder), Marcus Smith (Mandatory Rest), Chandler Cunningham-South (Mandatory Rest), Fin Baxter (Mandatory Rest)

Hmmm. Not sure I agree with centre pairing and Goodie on the bench - he may be the GOAT but his days of changing a game are past. Great to have some England players back and guys back from injury, but I fear we will continue to pursue a kick chase game. I hope Ferg is kicking - or are we continuing to babysit him with Loz as kicker? Particularly when we have Daz. Assume Goodie would be back up 10 - if you are gonna pick Loz then no need for a third 10 in Goodie - would prefer to see Olly on bench. No Rhys again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:21:17:41:57 by Strangelove.

There I was, thinking we'd got pretty well a first team starting. And Quins resting players.

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

AOC making his return against Quins after being injured against them. Slightly surprised at the 6-2 split although we have some very flexible backs playing.

We need to see more from IVZ-Burke-Tompkins-Lozowski than we were seeing before the break.

I fear they are a default selection rather than necessarily a deserving one (based on how we’ve gone so far this season).

Are Spink and Cinti injured again? Neither have played much.

Looks like a strong team to me and I'm interested to see how that backrow in particular goes. I like both the balance of the pack and backs and hope to see them working well together.

I've said before I think our issue is game plan not personnel so it will be interesting to see how we play. Certainly if we have any genuine aspirations to finish the season Top4 then a pretty much full strength team against a Quins one missing many of their big names is one we have to be winning.

It does feel like a nothing to lose game for Quins which could be dangerous.
Hopefully we have a great spectacle and a good win.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
We need to see more from IVZ-Burke-Tompkins-Lozowski than we were seeing before the break.
I fear they are a default selection rather than necessarily a deserving one (based on how we’ve gone so far this season).

Are Spink and Cinti injured again? Neither have played much.

Spink was on the fezcast, got a hamstring issue. Not sure about Cinti but he’d be a good bench option with a 6-2 split.

I spoke to Sam Spink at Scottish several weeks ago and he thought then his hammy was only a couple of weeks injury. It’s sadly not a new thing either..

Saints ...
I really hope there's no complacency in our game tomorrow.

Not knocking Spink but it's not a signing I ever got given we had Cinti already and he had shown that he can do the physical role from 13 whilst also being a useful wing option.
Was there perhaps a thought that we could build on a connection Hartley/Spink may have had from Wasps.

He was very highly regarded during his time in Australia but it just hasn’t happened for him yet.
The Saints result really makes it hard for us to secure top 4, we’ll probably need an away win now and that looks a very tall order.

He seems highly regarded within the squad, I can't exactly remember where (it might be the season ticket holders zoom) but comments that he and Tom Willis were hoovering up the various players and coaches prizes.

well the stadium is looking a bit fuller now than 4 week ago, obs may have no shows but financially it will be a good weekend for the club as i cant see us getting home semis this year, looking at the form of tigers getting in to third maybe the most attainable goal

i guess im being a bit naughty but its a shame Danny Care is not playing so it can't be sent off

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

Full two page spread on AOC and his injury in today's Telegraph sport

Pathetic performance



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:22:16:46:03 by Banzai1314.

Hubris, Banzai! Let's hope you don't lose your pants.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:22:13:11:09 by tpr's headmistress.

We’ll see we’ll see😂

Nick T immense. We could do with Liam W in the backfield.

Not sure even having Liam W would make a difference with Quins players launching themselves into the air from 10yrds away

And with that sentiment I think we need to stop the up and unders....

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

Superb assist pass from Alex G to Fergus for Elliot’s try.

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Very dull so far. Try at the end was a bit like putting glitter on poo. Hopefully second half we click a bit more

We are not playing any rugby.

We don’t seem to do anything right in the second half. We are have been poor!

Theo D’s throwing not great. Lineout not straight when Quins throw to the front. We’re not finishing try scoring opportunities. Plus their 95% success place kicking..

We have been poor under the high ball. Didn’t win a thing! So disappointing!

Season cooked. Not getting Top 4 now

Couldn’t even get a bonus point!

What is Theo Dan doing at these England camps? Clearly not practicing his throwing. Loss of possession at lineout lead to two important scores for Quins. Pathetic

Every time my expectations for this team are low they seek to put in a performance even below that.

This is the most spineless team we’ve had in the modern era.

So disappointing. Season done

Bloody hell that was awful in every regard. Completely switched off in the second half. Didn't play any rugby whatsoever, seemed content to just defend, and then did that badly as well.

It was like a carbon copy of last weekend's PWR final.

Not impressed with Leall. The hit that took out Tompkins was low danger apparently...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:22:16:57:40 by Sarriebone.

Very disappointing performance. I just hope we can bounce back next week at Tigers.

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Separate question but when a team runs a lineout play with a deliberate overthrow, surely the catcher can't start moving until the ball has passed the 15m line? Yet somehow they always seem to manage to get a forward (usually) there to catch the ball, even if it's only just beyond 15m and it's never looked at as being offside.

I’d almost forgotten how bad we were before the break, that was really bad all over the park. Something needs to change because we can’t keep doing this and expecting different results. I genuinely can’t think of anything we did consistently well today.

Kicking the ball away all the time doesn't work.

Quote:

Sarriebone
Separate question but when a team runs a lineout play with a deliberate overthrow, surely the catcher can't start moving until the ball has passed the 15m line? Yet somehow they always seem to manage to get a forward (usually) there to catch the ball, even if it's only just beyond 15m and it's never looked at as being offside.

Once the ball has crossed the 15 metre line the lineout is over. It’s play on, no offside. The throwing side has the advantage of being nearer so can get to the ball first.

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Well done Quins especially the last twenty.
Hope Seguns injury isn't too bad the lad has no luck.

McCall's managed decline of this team into mediocrity continues. Time for a change as this set up havce shown they are pathologically incapable of changing from an outdated limited gameplan.

It wouldn't be so tragic if it wasn't blindingly obvious we have a quality group of players but one not suited for the mind-numbingly dull percentage rugby the coaches want us to play.

Quite a few players put in really good shifts not least Willis, Itoje, Riccioni, Burke and Elliott. Goode, Lozowski and Daly kicking away turnovers ball when we had numbers sadly an all too familiar pattern.

Today was the day that convinced me I won't be renewing my families STs whilst the set up remains the same.

Quote:

Banzai1314
We are not playing any rugby.

Why should this game be any different to most of the season?
The game has moved on, the coaches haven't. The players are being hung out to dry by carp coaching and gameplan.

Banzai - - have to laugh or I'd cry.

Quote:

TommyKentish
I’d almost forgotten how bad we were before the break, that was really bad all over the park. Something needs to change because we can’t keep doing this and expecting different results. I genuinely can’t think of anything we did consistently well today.

Provide the oppositions chances to win the game by returning them low pressure possession?

We've been doing this for a season plus with odd "it's the hope that kills you" games. The coaching staff shown no sign of changing from a game based on playing without the ball and defending to wins. You'd think that as our better performances this season have been based on keeping the ball in hand and playing with tempo that might be a blueprint but apparently not.

Quote:

Stumpy7780
This is the most spineless team we’ve had in the modern era

I think that's really unfair.
There's no lack of passion or commitment in the team but we're Lions lead by Donkeys right now.

I actually think there was some stuff to like. With the ball I thought we looked quite good. The problem was we kept coughing it up and couldn’t get it back. Set piece was poor.

All round very disappointing

Potential heavy toll on injured players too!

Segun, Tompkins (failed HIA), Riccioni neck again!, Brantingham.

Gonzalez seemed to struggle a couple of times but played the 80.

Will Earl be fit for next week?

Ll

I don’t think there is an obvious solution here.

We just can’t put together a decent performance. After winning 3 in the first 4, we’ve now won 3 in 8. And haven’t really looked like winning any of them.

It's a quagmire to get home from the stadium, we kept coughing the ball up which was a shame and not quick enough to the breakdown in the second half. We fell off big time, to be honest I wasn't expecting much this season. We should start to blood some more of the younger players like Bracken etc, this would have been a good experience for them.

I would like to see us prioritise Leicester over Toulon as we are so far off the pace in Europe it isn’t worth getting distracted by the Champions Cup. I very much doubt we will finish top 4 this season in the Premiership but it is still not impossible and that should be our priority. As others have said our game plan is very limited and relatively easily exposed unless you are dominating the tackle and breakdown area which we did for the first 40 but singularly failed to do in the second 40. With quick recycled ball and a much more adventurous style of play Quins made us pay for our limitations.

Saracens management take a note of the style of Bristol play today. Somewhat cheered me up after the awful performance at Tottenham!

One thing that irks me is we bring in a new fly half to replace OF, who could clutch kick anything, and he’s no use so we delegating kicking to a guy who’s trying his best but isnt a great kicker. Why has this gone on all season?
Scrum half box kicks too much and most are too far or too short to be contestable. Guy behind me kept shouting that Quins had won the ball in the air yet again, he was so right, and at lineouts too. Our set piece was rubbish, we missed an easy penalty for a good kicker and gave away a critical penalty at a scrum so instead of being 15-7 we were 12-10 and Quins just grew from there as they realised we were for the taking .
I dont like the way the season runs with these huge gaps. A lot of the rubbish today was down to rust from lack of playing together. If the showdown is the first game back after the 6 Nations next year I’m not bothering. Too few games now to bother with renewing my season ticket, I think I’ll just pick off tickets for the games I can get to (missed 2 this year which is a lot out of only 11 serious games). Its not like its going to be hard to get a seat next year…..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:22:19:17:21 by maynas.

Astonishing the Quins won just about every aerial contest against a team who base their game on it. We looked all over the place when it was in the air.
A missed tackle by Tobias leading to their try and then a poor decision to try a chip over the top into heavy traffic show that whilst a great finisher he’s got an awful lot to work on.
Daly had a very poor day aside from his work in the second try.
Other than one scrum we were always under pressure.
A massive improvement required to even be competitive next week.

All good eras come to an end and i really feel now is the time to start next season with a fresh new coaching set up. Feels like the end of a cycle and our players are much better than the outdated tactics that they are being asked to play. Feel ita time to move on with some new ideas

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

Stumpy7780
This is the most spineless team we’ve had in the modern era

I think that's really unfair.
There's no lack of passion or commitment in the team but we're Lions lead by Donkeys right now.

It could be worse, you might be Saints fans…

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
I don’t think there is an obvious solution here.
We just can’t put together a decent performance. After winning 3 in the first 4, we’ve now won 3 in 8. And haven’t really looked like winning any of them.

Obvious solution is to change some of the personnel. We need some backs that will frighten opposition defences apart from Elliot. The centres is a good place to start. I love both Loz and Tompkins but one should really make way after this amount of poor performances. Loz has been given the kicking but it hasn’t actually been very good anyway so why not play Hartley and Cinti? I feel awful for Roti but his body just can’t hold up, so why not give young Bracken a chance? We seem to be putting the same guys out there again and again and expecting different results. Let Burke sink or swim too, stop babysitting him with playmakers everywhere and give him runners with Daly at full back. This season is an irrelevance to me now, we’ve been told that we’re in transition so let’s actually transition some people in!

It would also be nice to know what is happening with the coaching staff. We had Faz’s saga derail last season, Morrow is now leaving, McCall’s contract up this year and no CEO after the last guy left just a few months in. Players are still human, they crave stability as much as everyone else but the club seems muddled at the moment.

The team selection didn’t look right, couldn’t understand the rush to AOC back when the article suggests he’s not ready and we have plenty of options. Only having one outside back on bench with Roti playing always looks a risk, although it wasn’t his legs this time the poor guy.
All credit to Quins, they well and truly beat us at our own game.

Mark M’s comment:
"We have clear things we have to get better at. We have to understand why we were poor today. It is a bit of a test for us as a group. It doesn't have to be the end of anything there are six games to go and it is on all of us to work really hard."

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

Stumpy7780
This is the most spineless team we’ve had in the modern era

I think that's really unfair.
There's no lack of passion or commitment in the team but we're Lions lead by Donkeys right now.

Newcastle, Castre and now this result were all spineless loses.

There may have been more but I’ve deleted them from memory



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:22:21:15:36 by Stumpy7780.

What a miserable day, it started with a long journey to the ground then a very poor game compounded by Sarries pathetic performance, followed by the fact that we lost, followed by the continual passage of supporters going up and down the aisles in search of a beer causing obstruction on several occasions. And just to ensure the misery was complete, a horrendous journey home because of the chaos on the underground. The only saving grace was that the fish and chips were quite acceptable

Quote:

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Mark M’s comment:
"We have clear things we have to get better at. We have to understand why we were poor today. It is a bit of a test for us as a group. It doesn't have to be the end of anything there are six games to go and it is on all of us to work really hard."

This concerns me more than anything in todays performance. We were poor today because we keep playing the same way and it doesn't work.

To be blunt we aren't going to win many of the next 6 games let alone get to any Finals playing how we have for most of this season. This is apparent to pretty much every supporter I have spoken to so why do we keep doing it.

If you look at our players we have recruited to play like Bristol but are playing like Tigers under Borthwick (minus the silverware)

Unlike others I really don't think it's the players.
We have quality including in Burke who I think gets a hard rap here. He's compare through incredibly red & black tinted glasses to Farrell which is just crazy. Today and previously we have seen glimpses of his class and the player he can be but how we play inhibits that. He's a threat at the line like we've never had and his pace makes that even more potent but if we box-kick everything from 9 what is he actually getting to do? His run off Goode showed what he's capable of. Back him.

Today was certainly not the worst performance we’ve put in this season. We didn’t look too bad ball in hand, and tried to play more than we have done recently. I’m disappointed but compared to Castres home, Bath away, Newcastle away etc this wasn’t that awful.



Whilst I thought they were ok today, we need to look passed Tompkins and Lozowski in the centres now. I don’t know what they’ve done this season to be automatic picks. Cinti is a much better option at 13 for me. Jury is out on Hartley for me - I think he was very poor during the Cup - but the seasons over now, so let’s give the jury some evidence to come to a conclusion.

Tobias is a talent but costs us a try a game with his very ropey defence. He’s poor in the air too. Definitely worth sticking with though. I’d like him to get involved much more than he does as well. I’m afraid Segun just isn’t robust enough.

I’m most concerned at our packs inability to bully people to be honest. The backs are all a bit workmanlike at best - but the pack is not - it’s a pack of top class talent. They should be dominant every game against everyone except maybe Bath, but they’re just not. Why?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:22:22:00:23 by #wolfpack1.

At last people are smelling the coffee.

New ideas-new coaches please.

Someone earlier talking of a hugely outdated game plan- absolutely spot on.

Failure to do this is acceptance of lower mid table mediocrity.

Team are certainly not spineless.

Agree, we need to pick/not pick on form/lack of form and therefore a Hartley/Cinti pairing in the centres is worth a try. The 6-2 split didn’t work and was shown up when Roti went off early. Ferg is a decent player who needs to be let to run things, but needs good service from 9. Once Roti went off the only pace in the backs was Tobias- compare that to the pace Quins had in their backline. I really feel for Roti, but if your body cannot be relied upon we need to be cautious picking him.

Coaching team also needs some freshening up, however hard that may be to consider after the glory years, we cannot continue box kicking when the new rules make it less of a strength for us and defence is no longer the solution to everything, the game’s moved on. We need new ideas and the talent is in the overall squad, we just need to stick to it and pick the right players rather than being sentimental when players are in a poor run of form.

I don’t know what the answer is, somehow we are only 2 points of 4th place, so it is still achievable, but at the moment we don’t deserve to be in the semis. There is nothing to lose playing the likes of Olly, Charlie and Brandon next week, but they will likely stick to the usual formula.

The 6/2 was an horrific coaching mistake today
We lost the game due to the set piece in the second half

Theo Dan has the yips. Is there nothing we can do to cure his throwing. You can't move forward without a platform on your own throw.

Quote:

MarkCol7
The 6/2 was an horrific coaching mistake today
We lost the game due to the set piece in the second half

I'm not sure it was horrific but like many decisions made by our coaching set up currently I just didn't get what was meant to achieve.
Normally you stack the bench with forwards when you expect an attritional game or if you're SA/France so that you can utilise two tight fives of equal quality.
I guess if our plan remains making lots of tackles then attrition is a part? but we certainly aren't bringing on a "bomb squad"

wolfpack I'm not sure why you think the pack should be able to bully other teams?
Scrum has improved but unless its our full pack starting including Carre we tend to get parity at best which to be fair is a huge step forward from last season. We do have a preponderance of lighter less direct options though so on either side of the ball we are much less likely to be dominant with how we play. Lineout I just don't get. We have the ingredients to have the best lineout, attacking and defending in the League and yet we don't use it. How many times did we compete yesterday with McF, Maro and JMG in the lineout?

We have a perfect team to play at tempo away from the breakdown and utilising lineout for set piece plays. Why we do none of those things remains a mystery.

The season isn't gone but we look miles off competing for silverware. I'd prefer we back the good players we have to play a different way than change all the pieces and try that. Calls for change at centre are based on hope not evidence.

We do need to back those youngsters who have shown they have potential. Both Elliott and Dan didn't have their best games but you can see their quality so it's a question of helping get the best out of them. For the very little it's worth the last try Quins player jumps beyond the ball then plays Elliott, not the ball, in the air resulting in a knock on. It's a very charitable reading to call that competition and hard on Elliott.

Ending the season without silverware or even outside the Top4 would only be a disaster if we have learnt little or nothing from the season overall and I'm afraid that's the track I currently see us following for the second season in a row.
It was silly to spend resources on the Champions Cup and again it sounds like we'll reinforce that by resting for Tigers and focusing on Toulon. We need some realism in the coaching set up.

The clubs mindset in playing style and ambition seems stuck in the past. It's time for a reset with more realistic ambitions and a style of play that suits the players and the way the game is headed. Webber aside it feels like all the coaches aren't really delivering and whilst wide spread changes are unlikely to be helpful you do wonder if the Saracens group-think needs to be broken up a bit.
Is anyone saying to Shaw "this isn't working" and if not, why not.

I can understand why Prem Rugby want Derby Weekend (including the Showdown) directly after the 6N in the hope that Supporters interest captured by the Internationals transfers into the Club game!

But for me it doesn’t work! Teams looking rusty, missing players due to Mandatory rest, Players (eg: Dan) who haven’t played for weeks. Plus games that usually sell out anyway (Saints v Tigers) so no extra revenue is going to be generated!

I understand England need travelling reserves but again using Dan as an example, England had 4 hookers in the squad at times! Why couldn’t Theo have been released one weekend to play and Langdon been the reserve?

Absolutely agree the 2 month gap is bad for teams. Previously there were a few premiership games which not ideal if you’d lost players to internationals, at least meant a bit of continuity and something for the fans to watch.
Our team yesterday was pretty much the one that put in a similarly poor performance against Castres. Both big games with big rewards for winning but we looked pretty complacent and lacking in energy in both.
That is a leadership issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:23:09:43:33 by The Bard.

You think you have problems - should have been at The Gardens on Friday night….at least you got on the scoreboard !

I can appreciate the disappointment and that a lot of the views here are made up from the season as a whole than just one game but saying 'a box kicking centric gameplan can't work in todays game' seems a little at odds from what Quins actually did in the game, where their domination of the air was key in getting territory.

Also, as much as I like Jack Bracken when I've seen him his own interviews over the U20s 6 nations period suggest he sees his biggest work-on as the aerial game.

Couple of other things from yesterday. Why wasn’t the Quins team read out before kick off? Looked very disrespectful. And why after two lengthy injury breaks did they finally decide to look at the incidents on the screen? What was the TMO doing?

I had a thoroughly lousy matchday experience yesterday which I have passed back via the feedback form email - I'm not going to go into details here, but I'm not at all keen to return to any big stadium game for the foreseeable future.
One contributing factor was the incessant to & fro to the bar of certain people in front of me during the game which meant I couldn't actually see the pitch for way too much of the time (I am not exaggerating). May not be a popular view, but am increasingly uncomfortable about rugby's relationship with alcohol & the apparent need for some spectators to get loaded pre match & keep topping up throughout. I know this is not a new behaviour - but do we really need to keep doing it? Would it be so awful if the bars were shut while the game is going on?

Quote:

darktagnan
I know this is not a new behaviour - but do we really need to keep doing it? Would it be so awful if the bars were shut while the game is going on?

I went to a Bath game several years back where they closed the bars 5 mins before kick off each half so supporters wouldn’t get to their seats late. Seemed quite an enlightened idea.

I guess the club needs all the money it can get though so won’t happen

Quote:

The Bard
Couple of other things from yesterday. Why wasn’t the Quins team read out before kick off? Looked very disrespectful. And why after two lengthy injury breaks did they finally decide to look at the incidents on the screen? What was the TMO doing?

In the first incident (Tomkpins) the TMO was looking into how Gonzalez's injury had happened hence a delay getting to the Tomkins case. In the second....no idea. IMHO both sanctions were correct, with appropriate mitigation for players' positioning, despite the outcome for Nick.

Here’s my matchday experience.

Get to our seats 14.25.

14.59 two ladies plus drinks arrive and stand directly in front of us in the aisle having a ‘discussion’ with two guys who were apparently in their seats. This was resolved when it was pointed out they were in the wrong block.

15.05 ish we score a try, guy in from of us gets up to go and get beers, didnt watch the conversion.

Guy returns plus beers, one of which he knocks over and has to go and replace.

15.15 Another guy in our row goes to buy beers, returns in 10 minutes.

15.30 First guy has to go for a toilet break, returns with beers, repeated by two guys in the middle of our row

15.40 we score our second try, good excuse for several to visit bar/toilets, we missed th conversion as did Loz apparently.

And so it went on for the whole of the second half as well, couple behind us just nattered the whole time, never about the game, mostly about darts.

As with Darktagnan, none of this was exaggerated and i have replied on the questionnaire to the club. I really dont see the need to get tanked up on overpriced guinness served in plastic cups, why not just enjoy the game? Any comments, anyone?

Quote:

PaulHerox

wolfpack I'm not sure why you think the pack should be able to bully other teams?
Scrum has improved but unless its our full pack starting including Carre we tend to get parity at best which to be fair is a huge step forward from last season. We do have a preponderance of lighter less direct options though so on either side of the ball we are much less likely to be dominant with how we play. Lineout I just don't get. We have the ingredients to have the best lineout, attacking and defending in the League and yet we don't use it. How many times did we compete yesterday with McF, Maro and JMG in the lineout?

We have England first and (until this 6N) second choice hookers, Englands first and second choice number 8 (although Earl didn’t play yesterday), Lions captain elect in the second row, Italian starter at TH, Argentinian starter in the backrow. Not many teams have enough good players that Nick Isiwke wouldn’t start.

Yet, our breakdown work is shoddy on both sides of the ball, our lineout was a shambles in the second half and offered no resistance to Quins, our maul was poor, our scrum was poor (although improvements have been made in that area), our carrying other than Tom Willis is non existent.

There aren’t very many teams in the country or maybe even Europe who will look at our forwards and go “nah you’re alright”. But they just can’t get on top and stay on top. It puzzles me- the backs have a fairly low ceiling imo, the forwards don’t

I know this post won't go down well with some of the armchair experts on the board, but I well remember the early noughties when we had a revolving door policy for coaches. That approach only led to complete unpredictability in our performances until the night of the long knives when BV took over. His approach to the game was very negative/boring and many complained at the time, but only until we started winning silverware based on that style and the stability he be and his team (which included Mark) brought to the club .

Since then the game has moved on several times, often prompted by rule and interpretation changes. Our stable coaching team has responded to changes previously, but maybe when it coincides with a major changing of the guard it'll take a little longer for us to get it right (you could argue that Saints and Chiefs are suffering the same double whammy).

We have some serious talent coming through the academy and, as a club, we've mostly nurtured that talent well (just look at how many home grown stars we've produced over the years), and I'm sure as their experience and involvement in match days increases we'll see a resurgence (but not this year and maybe not next either). As a long-time supporter I can and will be patient, even if that means suffering some bad days (like yesterday), and when I don't understand the rationale for team selection and strategy (e.g. 6-2 bench split yesterday).

Also, for many years we've been a club that looks after its own, so the almost footballesque calls for a clean sweep in the coaching team makes me very sad, but thankfully I'm pretty confident it won't happen based on a few calls on a message board.

I'm as disappointed as the next man with the current performances and results, but don't see that chucking all the cards in the air is the solution. Does anybody think that a set of professional coaches can't see the issues as well as we can? Does anybody REALLY think they have a better idea of how to solve those issues than a team with decades of experience in adapting to new rules and conditions?

Quote:

nedrichards
I can appreciate the disappointment and that a lot of the views here are made up from the season as a whole than just one game but saying 'a box kicking centric gameplan can't work in todays game' seems a little at odds from what Quins actually did in the game, where their domination of the air was key in getting territory.
Also, as much as I like Jack Bracken when I've seen him his own interviews over the U20s 6 nations period suggest he sees his biggest work-on as the aerial game.

Personally I have no issue with box kicking or any other tactic if it is done well and suits our personnel. I’d argue that at the moment we neither do it well and our players, apart from Daly possibly, aren’t really suited to it. IVZ is not Wiggy and Elliott isn’t great in the air. Jackson might suit it a bit better but he’s not first choice. Quins had Halfpenny and Isgro who are great in the air so why are we playing to their strengths? Also kicking long to Isgro was really dangerous as well so it might’ve paid off to keep the ball in hand a bit more. I’m not saying we need to go full Bristol but we managed to get a really good balance the season we won the prem and played to our players strengths more. Malins must be looking at this and wondering why he’s coming back at the moment.

The other frustration I had was our decision making. We kicked on turnover ball multiple times when we had overlaps and then chucked it around in front of the posts (e.g. when Tompkins got injured) when it wasn’t on. To me that shows muddled thinking from some very experienced players which is a huge concern.

On Bracken I feel the best way to learn is through experience. This season is done for me, so give him some minutes with the pressure off and let him learn. Same for Charlie and some of the other youngsters.

I think Roger is right.

Think we’ve been brilliant this year and shown what great potential we have.

We might even win the Champions Cup

#inmarkitrust and all that.

Much love

An “Armchair Expert”

I remember the noughties too, and before then the brief flurry of success post professionalisation in the 90s. Not everyone who is a bit disappointed with the way things are going joined the club in the last 10 years.

Different time and different era and different set up. Different expectations.

Just because once we acknowledged we were rubbish, and the highlight of a season was beating Leicester at home and watching Martin Johnson get himself sent off again, doesn’t mean that should be the highlight 20 years later.

Quote:

Stonexjim
I think Roger is right.
Think we’ve been brilliant this year and shown what great potential we have.

We might even win the Champions Cup

#inmarkitrust and all that.

Much love

An “Armchair Expert”

Very droll! I don't think we've been brilliant this year and will be very surprised if we win anything. Does that mean we have to trash everything and start again? I don't think so. Does that mean I'm going to tear up my season ticket in disgust? Absolutely not. Does it mean I know better than the current coaches? Very definitely not so yes I do trust Mark and his team to adapt our style and personnel and get us back to winning ways. It may take longer than some would like, but I'll be there supporting my club come what may.

So there we have it....I've upset somebody, but it's fine that we all have different opinions as long as we don't descend to personal insults or lack of respect for other opinions. On which note apologies for the use of the term "armchair expert" which obviously has touched a nerve.

I agree with Roger G that we don’t need wholesale changes but we’ve seen what a good impact a select addition like Rob Webber can have. Farrell leaving has shown what we all new anyway, which is he was largely in charge of running the attack, a fresh pair of eyes there might help.

We also have some gaping holes to fill at the top of the club with Morrow going and no CEO. Plus McCall’s future has not been sorted as far as I know.

There are hints of potential there in every match we scored 2 cracking tries but then reverted to type for some unknown reason. Looking back the the early games in the season we were doing trick moves off the lineout, throwing it around a bit. Not quite sure why we didn't continue with that.

Take it from a Supporter of a Club with a revolving door for Coaches, it doesn’t work!!

Firstly recruitment and retention being done by a previous set of coaches doesn’t fit the new coaches plans and by the time the New Coach has got the Players he wants the coach has left!
Relationships between any old Coaches and New Coaches break down - Matt Everard/Cheika, Borthwick/Murphy…
Stability is something to be celebrated!

With a Salary Cap league, most teams can beat one another on any certain day and luck with injuries etc will play a part.

Saracens are still evolving from the loss of Farrell, Mako, Billy and personally don’t think a coaching massacre would help, you are already losing Murrow!

I think Player fatigue has a massive impact both Mentally and Physically on Performances, for example Itoje was over the game time limit last season, frequently plays the full 80, has taken on massive responsibilities with club & country captaincy and potentially going into a massive Summer. That eventually will take its toll.

Unfortunately the 5000 of us that get grumpy with the big-stadium one-off effect of thousands of people heading back and forth to the bars and getting in the way, is far outweighed by the importance of 50,000 people putting money in the club coffers (which has been publicly stated is worth 5x more to the club than a game at the StoneX). Sadly I'm not sure what feeding this back to the club is going to achieve. They know its the case already.

Agree with the above that its not revolution and wholesale changes we need, it's evolution. But at the same time, those that matter need to try and figure out who is capable of instigating that evolution and who can't come along with it. That could well be elements of both the coaching and playing setup.

One specific thing I wholeheartedly agree with above is that we have a 9 and 10 who are much better players than we're seeing, as it looks like they're being asked to play in a way completely at odds with their style. See our 2nd try yesterday for an example of the good.

Not a fan of these big stadium events, but understand why 'the powers that be' continue with them.
Does no-one else think that the atmosphere was awful in the stadium yesterday. The continual hum of converstaion throughout the match. Our group hadn't seen each other in two months and there was much to catch up on. And the play on the pitch did little to distract us.
Also, I didn't hear any crowd wide chanting of 'Sarries, Sarries' or anything else. (Bar one half hearted attempt by the Quins fans in the second half.). The announcer and the music was obviously an effort by the Club to engage us, but it didn't work. Guilty of not doing my bit.

I'm interested in Roger G's view and whilst I think his point about replacing the entire coaching team is a bit of a strawman (is anyone really calling for that) I appreciate that many still have faith in the entire coaching team or think a period of poor play as we reset is inevitable.

"Does anybody REALLY think they have a better idea of how to solve those issues than a team with decades of experience in adapting to new rules and conditions?"

An interesting question.
Does anyone REALLY think the coaches are infallible or they don't make mistakes.

The season following the loss to Tigers in the Final McCall said the that we lost because in that game and towards the end of the season we failed to back the more expansive game developed over that season and went back to the familiar.
Many of us called that at the time.
Were we wrong when we made the point but validated when McCall suggested he and the coaches got it wrong.

I've no issue being beaten by better teams.
Similarly if we were rubbish but doing our best I think I'd be happier than I am now watching huge talent being wasted and the same mistakes repeated game after game.

I am definitely at best an Armchair Expert and yet I'd challenge a single one of our hugely experienced coaches to explain to me what possible benefit we derive from the slowest ruck speed in the League or from continually kicking away turnover ball when we have overlaps.

You'd ask a mini's coach to step aside if that was what they were coaching but for some reason because our experienced coaches say it's so, despite a large body of evidence to the contrary, they must be right. I can't accept that logic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:23:17:41:57 by PaulHerox.

Quote:

Stonexjim
I think Roger is right.
Think we’ve been brilliant this year and shown what great potential we have.

We might even win the Champions Cup

#inmarkitrust and all that.

Much love

An “Armchair Expert”

That's a silly post. You don't have to accept everything that has gone on, but that is not in any way what Roger said, so don't tie your prejudices to him.

Well, i decided to com back one after so i didn't spoil the rest of my birthday weekend, yes i know we get frustated in going to spurs, and i almost came a unstuck with the cancelling of the trains but when we are struggling to host Semi finals and other more lucrative events with attendance we need the game to shore up our ailing finances

took me an hour and a half with 2 buses to get back to my car, which my family were relying on me to pick them up to go back north.. a bit of a sweety time not knowing Tottenham area but glad that if there's a bus network to fall back on for any destination its London's.

yes i did try with the sarries chant, and actually i herd a few, maybe we need to block book ourselves with our friends from StoneX a lot more closer so we can almost get it started...

well 13 years of beating quins at home has ended... yes not as bad as saints but i think this is the predicted end off the continuous high flying status, I think we were worse at newcastle to be honest, and really we need to see if we can sneak in to 4th and hope gloucester and sale have miserable runs like ours. Season may still be over but i think there will be a redress in the summer... for me a away semi to bath will be a recovery of the season as it stands

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

Quote:

PaulHerox
I'm interested in Roger G's view and whilst I think his point about replacing the entire coaching team is a bit of a strawman (is anyone really calling for that).........

Thanks Paul, a well thought out response to my rant (I didn't quote it all to save space) and one I can agree to differ on. What does push my buttons is that, yes, I believe some are calling for wholesale changes in the coaching team which IMHO is not the answer.

To play the expansive game when possible that you and others (including myself) would like to see, needs the basics in place first and the skills and understanding in the backs to make it happen. We seem to have been hit with a lot of injuries this season, especially in the backs, and some of the combinations that we're all eager to see haven't been available so maybe there just isn't the intuitive chemistry there yet. I'd be right behind giving the Brackens, Hall, Jackson et al some experience now the chance of silverware seems to be slipping away (not gone yet), but as part of an evolution and not chucking them all in the deep end at the same time as change for change's sake.

I’m not sure I agree we’ve been hit with a lot of injuries in the backs - at least not to the “first team”:

Van Zyl been an ever present;
Fergus missed a couple of weeks but not many;
Tobias been an ever present;
Tompkins been an ever present;
Lozowski been an ever present;
The second winger has been a bit of a lottery;
Daly been an ever present.

I think this is partly what is frustrating people. There has been very little accountability for poor performance - basically the same XV goes out every week. It’s a bit like last season where the scrum was a total shambles, and they didn’t change anything until the summer (by which time it had lost us the semi final).

For what it’s worth IMO, the likelihood of the coaches trying out new combinations or playing anything other than what they consider to be their strongest team (see the 6 backs plus 1 winger above) every week is absolutely nil. It just will not happen - never has done before, can’t see why it would now.

That was a terrible game. I thought Quins were poor but we were abject. It was the kind of game that makes one despair of the Premiership - but then I watched the Bristol and Bath games and faith was somewhat restored in how entertaining our game can be.

We definitely have a coaching issue - and like PaulH I would really like to know from the coaches why we persist in kicking the ball away at every opportunity particularly when we don't have the backs to regather it - I'm not sure Daly caught a ball all afternoon. It was noticeable that even during the one decent bit of backs play that led to the Elliot try, Lozowski's first instinct was to grubber it. Fortunately he resisted the urge, Burke went on the loop and we scored - simple!

I also don't buy that we were exhausted. Most of the team had had a nice break. Willis spent half the 6 nations on the bench, Jamie rarely plays more than 50 minutes a match these days and it is only really Maro who played all of the 6 nations games and we know what an athlete he is.

The fact is we continue to play rugby from the dark ages and there are simply no signs that the coaches have any intention of changing the approach. I actually left about 6 minutes from the end - something I don't think I have ever done before. I think we were only 1 or maybe 4 points down at the time but it was completely obvious we weren't going to come back at that stage.

Just one further point on poor Alex Goode. Obviously the rugby brain is willing, as shown by his involvement in the Elliot try, but the flesh is definitely weak. I don't think there is any team in the Prem playing a back who's better days are quite so obviously behind him. His lack of pace makes him a liability in defence I'm afraid and it is most definitely time for him to hang up his boots. Having him as the only backs cover (excluding scrum half) is complete madness in my opinion and I utter an inward groan whenever I see his name on the team sheet these days. I know that we are told by some that we should trust the coaches but I have been to all the home games (and some of the away) over the last few seasons and I have eyes!

Aside from that - everything that PaulH said.

One other thing - Lozowski's goal kicking is not and never has been good enough. Let Burke take the kicks.

Unfortunately Burke’s is worse. Bit of a messy situation with the kicking duties, makes it very difficult to build a backline. On Goode it is crazy that despite his age he still manages to provide the best bit of skill for us in the whole match. He shouldn’t have been the only outside back on the bench though, especially with Segun on the pitch.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
I’m not sure I agree we’ve been hit with a lot of injuries in the backs - at least not to the “first team”:
Van Zyl been an ever present;
Fergus missed a couple of weeks but not many;
Tobias been an ever present;
Tompkins been an ever present;
Lozowski been an ever present;
The second winger has been a bit of a lottery;
Daly been an ever present.

I think this is partly what is frustrating people. There has been very little accountability for poor performance - basically the same XV goes out every week. It’s a bit like last season where the scrum was a total shambles, and they didn’t change anything until the summer (by which time it had lost us the semi final).

For what it’s worth IMO, the likelihood of the coaches trying out new combinations or playing anything other than what they consider to be their strongest team (see the 6 backs plus 1 winger above) every week is absolutely nil. It just will not happen - never has done before, can’t see why it would now.

But where are the main squad backups (I know there are a few academy options) - Spink, Williams, Hallett, Jackson, Johnson, Cinti, Hartley? I understood several had been or are injured, and now probably Roti (again), and Tomkins possibly out for HIA protocols.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:03:24:11:50:55 by Roger G.

Tomkins will definitely be out of next weekend if he failed his HIA. Hartley or Hallett should be able to come in. Hopefully Carre and Cinti are fit as both will be needed.

Lozowksi has been both very good and poor when given the kicking duties this season.
As TommyKentish says the evidence is that Burkes is always not great.
I don't have an issue with the 10 not being the kicker but ideally whoever the kicker is they'd be our best. I'm guessing that's what the coaches think Lozowski is.

I'm about to do a more positive post elsewhere but I was really thinking about this season and for me we have three, maybe four performances to be really proud of as a club.
The PRC team win over what was pretty much the same Quins team we just lost to.
Bristol home and away.
Saints before Christmas.

We were flattered in our wins against both Stade Francais and Bulls by the cards they received and the losses of full strength teams to Castres and Munster B teams on subsequent weekends was probably a better reflection of where we really are.
We're the only team to have lost to both Newcastle and Exeter so far.

The reason I post that is because those performances all have the same thing in common and that's us actually keeping hold of the ball and attacking rather than trying to defend our way to a win.
The European losses against B teams were the pinnacle of the opposite. Allowing weak opposition to get the position to win through an abject, negative gameplan.

The only theme that has been close to as much of a constant than us kicking away great possession this season is a ten minute spell of showing how we can play when we're too far behind to realistically chase a win from a losing position.

Not sure why the kicking tee isn’t given to Daly!

Quote:

tigersimon
Not sure why the kicking tee isn’t given to Daly!

This has been my feeling since Day 1

After watching the highlights of the McFarland try that’s just been posted on social media, the commentator said that Quins were going down to 14 through a yellow card - I’m sure this didn’t happen?
Can anyone that’s watched the full footage explain if the ref overruled the TMO on this?

Quote:

MarkCol7
After watching the highlights of the McFarland try that’s just been posted on social media, the commentator said that Quins were going down to 14 through a yellow card - I’m sure this didn’t happen?
Can anyone that’s watched the full footage explain if the ref overruled the TMO on this?

Don't remember hearing anything like that on the ref link. The TMO seemed to be trying to talk both the high tackle on Tomkins and Loz's one later on up to yellow, but in both cases (rightly IMHO) Leal overruled the TMO and awarded pen only.

I'm believe the referee warned Quins the next one would go.

George takes the tap and go within 10 of the line so only those behind it could have tackled him legally. Any one of about four Quins players were illegal could have easily been identified and should have been sent of.

The commentator responded as if someone had been sent off but they hadn't.

One of those odd situations where McFarland not scoring would have probably been a card in addition to 7 points for a penalty try. Because the try was scored it was just the 7.

Mawi could have been yellowed twice within about 5 seconds for equally cynical play in Quins 22 in the first half though so that one probably balanced out.

Quote:

Roger G
Don't remember hearing anything like that on the ref link. The TMO seemed to be trying to talk both the high tackle on Tomkins and Loz's one later on up to yellow, but in both cases (rightly IMHO) Leal overruled the TMO and awarded pen only.

The only thing about the Tompkins one for me, is it is hard to see how the ref judged it a low impact tackle - and therefore only a penalty - when NT had to go off for an HIA which he failed. (Obvs I know the result of the HIA came after the decision, but his judgement was surely faulty.)