Saracens
Munster v Saracens Preview
Fortress Thomond
By saracensfan62
January 5 2025
Saracens head to Fortress Thomond on Saturday, 11th January 5.30pm KO in search of points that will surely confirm a home knockout RO16 for the Champions Cup.
This will be a tough challenge – there’s no doubt about it. The last time these two met was in December 2019, where Saracens ground out a tough 15-9 victory. The previous 8 encounters have led to 5 wins for Saracens and 3 for Munster, however only 1 of our five wins have come away at Fortress Thomond– the pool match in 2017, where we defeated the men in red by 16 points. Munster’s record at home is superb, with only three losses since January 2024. The passion of the home fans and noise will be sure to deliver a superb atmosphere. We will have to bear the conditions in mind as Thomond Park is extremely open and exposed to the elements so any wind or rain may cause problems for the side having to play into it. Nonetheless I’m sure MM and his team will take all this into account ahead of the weekend.
I am expecting our opposition to be full noise this weekend. While no game is inherently ‘more important’ for one team over another, Munster’s need for points to qualify adds extra intensity to this encounter. Currently, we sit 2nd with 9 points while Munster are in 3rd with 6 points. In terms of format, the top two teams in each pool secure home advantage in the RO16, with the high-ranked teams having home advantage in the QF and country advantage in the SF. 3rd and 4th from each pool will enter the RO16 but, based on how many points and points difference, will have away ties. Home knockouts, while not essential, are very useful to progress further in the competition.
Munster Rugby – A team in transition, but still dangerous.
It would be fair to say these two teams have had their ups and downs in recent years. Munster pulled off a dramatic URC final victory against all odds against the Stormers in South Africa in 2023. However, they were beaten finalists in the Pro12 in 2021, 2017 (where they fell to a quality Scarlets side), and 2015 (losing to Glasgow Warriors). Saracens have had their fair share of silverware – the premiership in 2018 and 2019, European Champions Cup in 2017 and 2019 but disappointment too, losing out narrowly to Leicester in 2022 and being soundly beaten by eventual winners Stade Rochelais in the QF of the 2022-23 champions cup.
Munster boast significant talent within their ranks. Stalwarts like Niall Scannell, Tadhg Beirne, Calvin Nash, Peter O’Mahony and Jack Crowley could all cause us problems this weekend coming. Whilst their season has not been perfect, for instance conceding the 2nd most points (233 in 9 games, 26 on average per game) in the URC, they have shown what they are capable of, for instance the impressive victory against Stade Francais at home. They are a very good outfit and we will need to be on form to get a win or take some points away.
Saracens – Is this the year?
Now for Saracens. The impressive victory against Bristol gave a glimpse of what we are capable of. The developing partnership between Ivan van Zyl and Burke, combining creative playmaking with tactical precision, showed real promise and it seems the Kiwi has settled into life in Barnet very nicely indeed. While he has not been goal kicking in all matches, we have sound options from the boot with Elliot Daly and Alex Lozowski being called upon from the tee.
The scrum has caused us numerous issues in the last couple of seasons since the departure of Vincent Kock, Richard Barrington, and Mako Vunipola. However, it seems to have turned a corner recently. Signings Rhys Carre and Phil Brantingham seem to have given stability and strength, with us winning more penalties than conceding. We still have Eroni Mawi and Alec Clarey as options, both seasoned scrummagers and good ball-in-hand.
In the absence of Nick Isiekwe and Hugh Tizard, Harry Wilson has stepped up to the first XV and delivered. He’s impressed in both the Bath away game and the Bears home game. He seemed to add strength and ballast to the scrum and worked well with Itoje.
With Saracens finding form and Munster’s home dominance on display, fans can expect an intense and hard-fought battle at Thomond Park. The breakdown duel, featuring the likes of Earl, Willis, O’Mahony, and Beirne, could prove pivotal in deciding this encounter. Both teams are bringing determination and talent to the fore—this promises to be a match no rugby fan woluld want to miss.
My predicted Saracens team for the weekend (taking into account absences and injuries) is as follows:
Predicted Saracens Team
- Rhys Carre
- Jamie George
- Marco Riccioni
- Maro Itoje
- Harry Wilson
- Juan Martin-Gonzalez
- Ben Earl
- Tom Willis
- Ivan Van-Zyl
- Fergus Burke
- Rotimi Segun
- Nick Tompkins
- Alex Lozowski
- Lucio Cinti
- Elliot Daly
- Theo Dan
- Phil Brantingham
- Alec Clarey
- Olamide Sodeke
- Nathan Michelow
- Gareth Simpson
- Olly Hartley
- Angus Hall
I expect to see a return for Theo Dan given his recent injury has been reported to not be a serious one. If I am wrong, Kapeli Pifeleti or James Isaacs may be in the 16 shirt.
Best wishes to all those sarries fans travelling out to Limerick and Thomond Park for the match. Hopefully travel etc will be smooth. See you out there, or if you are not going, enjoy watching on the TV!
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:23:13:39:51 by Darraghgirl.
We lack the depth to compete in the later stages and are already struggling with injuries and player fatigue.
The game against Exeter Chiefs in which I understand we will be absent our English Internationals should be our primary focus. It will be a difficult trip away to Sandy Park even before additional squad injuries or bans are factored in.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:08:16:16:39 by saracensfan62.
Not sure about Mawi. I think it's not that he's playing badly, but there is such stiff competition between 3 quality LH props (Carre, Brantingham and Mawi) for the No.1 shirt. Brantingham's scrummaging has been very solid and Carre's carries nearly always give us gainline success.
Quote:PaulHerox
I'm afraid I can't summon any interest in these games.
We lack the depth to compete in the later stages and are already struggling with injuries and player fatigue.
The game against Exeter Chiefs in which I understand we will be absent our English Internationals should be our primary focus. It will be a difficult trip away to Sandy Park even before additional squad injuries or bans are factored in.
Terrible take imo
We have a chance to win here and end up being at home for the potential next two rounds of the comp. Why would we send a weak squad?
Especially as we only have 3 games left before we have a mini refresh period coming up during the 6 nations
From the club's point of view too, given the much publicised state of finances, surely they'll be doing absolutely everything to ensure home knockout rugby too.
Quote:ICantBelieveItsNotBartyII
Terrible take indeed.
From the club's point of view too, given the much publicised state of finances, surely they'll be doing absolutely everything to ensure home knockout rugby too.
Absolutely this. The club won't get any ticket revenue from the ST holders but they will of course from the non STs, the travelling fans and the food/drink/merchandise.
If not then why would you not prioritise Top2 and a home Semi-Final in the Premiership a competition we could potentially win over a competition in which we realistically have little chance and earn nothing beyond the Home Quarter-Final.
I seem to remember that a ERCC Quarter-Final needs to be 15K so there is the potential, if sold out, for additional revenue over a Home Semi-Final in the Premiership but winning the Premiership actually earns the club sum money as opposed to the Champions Cup if we're saying that is the priority.
The ideal scenario would see the club have the Champions Cup Quarter-Final and Premiership Semi-Final at the Stone-X.
Looking at our injuries and the likelihood of player fatigue after the 6 Nations aiming for that looks like a recipe for achieving neither or at best severely damaging our chances in the Premiership by prioritising the Champions Cup.
It's time for a bit of reality about how thin we can spread our resources and still achieve silverware at the end of the season.
Quote:PaulHerox
To those replying "terrible take" are we going to with the Champions Cup this season?
If not then why would you not prioritise Top2 and a home Semi-Final in the Premiership a competition we could potentially win over a competition in which we realistically have little chance and earn nothing beyond the Home Quarter-Final.
I seem to remember that a ERCC Quarter-Final needs to be 15K so there is the potential, if sold out, for additional revenue over a Home Semi-Final in the Premiership but winning the Premiership actually earns the club sum money as opposed to the Champions Cup if we're saying that is the priority.
The ideal scenario would see the club have the Champions Cup Quarter-Final and Premiership Semi-Final at the Stone-X.
Looking at our injuries and the likelihood of player fatigue after the 6 Nations aiming for that looks like a recipe for achieving neither or at best severely damaging our chances in the Premiership by prioritising the Champions Cup.
It's time for a bit of reality about how thin we can spread our resources and still achieve silverware at the end of the season.
We weren’t favourites when the comp started so we should have just pulled out and not even tried
I see Louis Johnson starting for Ampthill tomorrow, fabulous news!
1 Phil Brantingham
2 Jamie George
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje (c)
5 Harry Wilson
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Ben Earl
8 Tom Willis
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Fergus Burke
11 Lucio Cinti
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Liam Williams
15 Elliot Daly
Replacements:
16 Theo Dan
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Alec Clarey
19 Max Eke
20 Nathan Michelow
21 Gareth Simpson
22 Olly Hartley
23 Tobias Elliott
Great experience for some of these younger lads, will only put us in a stronger position moving forwards when some of the bigger names return.
Hopefully Nick I and Tizz back next week so we can give Maro a well deserved break.
Pos
15 Mike Haley
14 Calvin Nash
13 Tom Farrell
12 Rory Scannell
11 Shane Daly
10 Jack Crowley
9 Conor Murray
1 Dian Bleuler
2 Niall Scannell
3 Oli Jager
4 Fineen Wycherley
5 Tadhg Beirne
6 Jack O'Donoghue
7 Alex Kendellen
8 Gavin Coombes
Replacements
16 Diarmuid Barron
17 John Ryan
18 Stephen Archer
19 Thomas Ahern
20 John Hodnett
21 Paddy Patterson
22 Billy Burns
23 Brian Gleeson
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:10:22:25:03 by Strangelove.
Referee: Pierre Brousset (Fra)
ARs: Vivien Praderie (Fra) & Pierre Bru (Fra)
TMO: Tual Trainini (Fra)
Van Zyls kicking game has been great, but his ball delivery is far too slow. We needed to strike after Gonzalez (who’s been everywhere) charge down, but just leaving the ball at the back of the ruck for so long just begs for a counter ruck.
Move the ball quicker!
The moment it gets to phase 5 we really struggle for ideas or shape or momentum
Lozowski needs a new set of hands.
The commentary (very good imo) was absolutely right. Munster gave us so many opportunities to attack, it isn’t good enough to come away with 0 tries
Absolute garbage from Van-Zyl and Williams. Both butchered easy chances for the players outside them.
Whilst Van-Zyls's box-kicking is superb for too much of the game it's like playing against 16 men with him on the field. He continually removes all impetus in attack and how many times does he need to get turned over at the base before he realises his dithering is serving no purpose?
That was a very frustrating watch and a very solid team performance was let down by two very poor players.
We are certainly not good enough to be a semi finalist in this competition at present although I will suspect we will win next week and go through as the 2nd team in our division. We might even finish top as it won’t be easy for Northampton to get 4 tries next week against Munster.
Fair play to Munster. Let’s hope they can take their form to Northampton next week.
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
I also thought the referee was very good.
Possibly one of their Trys came after a player fumbled the ball from the high ball and it was then caught by the player next to him who was also attempting to catch but I wasn't sure.
Also huge credit to the Munster player who intercepted Willis pass to the outside. That was a superb bit of defending and a Try looked likely.
Otherwise some great perfomances. Thought Wilson looked like he has been playing this level for years.
There was stuff to like about that performance (mostly defensive and kicking game) - but we do really need to find ways of scoring when a first phase move doesn’t work. I think our attack was summed up by that passage where we started 5m out and got shunted back and back and back before Ferg hacked a drop goal 15m wide.
A couple of offloads and tip on passes wouldn’t go amiss. And ball from Van Zyl needs to be so much quicker or it’s time for someone else to have a go, no matter how well he kicked today
[www.rugbypass.com]
This is absolutely spot on and it's an observation that has applied for seasons, not games.
It's tempting to blame Van-Zyl but the reality is this is on McCall and Shaw.
Van-Zyl has shown he can play at pace and indeed some of our best performances have been with him doing so. I can literally think of no earthly reason to continuously slow the ruck ball down but if it wasn't what the coaches wanted Van-Zyl would be replaced as a starter.
There are scenarios were the ball presentation is poor or the options to pass to are likewise but this is rarely the case for this current Saracens team.
My instinct after the game was to question what Sorrel's impact is currently but the reality is we created two Try chances that should have been scored, a further one denied by an outstanding defensive read and several chances to go wide from the midfield if Lozowski hadn't left his hands in the changing room.
The attack is working and we have the players it's simply not being backed by those at the top.
It's illuminating that one of our better performances at Home recently was playing in a gale where we chose to keep the ball in hand rather than kick the majority of our possession away.
I'm not for a second saying there should be changes but those at the top seem tied to the nostalgia of how we used to play without realising the game has moved on.
Backing the Vunipolas and Goode last season and likely extending Williams next show a poor grasp of when players have passed their peak and it's time to back youth.
We have the fabled Wolfpack defence but we have more Trys scored against us than we've scored and only Falcons have a poorer Trys conceded record. The Bath game is a considerable factor but even before then our defence isn't the foundation it was.
Yesterday should have been a famous first win at Thomond Park. I hope the failure has put as big a rock under the teams pillows as it has mine.
/grumpy rant
Last season and (particularly) the season before IVZ looked really good; he was probably just playing instinctive rugby as Faz did all the game management stuff. Now IVZ has taken on that role and at every breakdown seems to take a couple of seconds to look down field to see whether to kick or pass, and then he makes a decision to go left or right. And by then all momentum has gone.
In my view he’d benefit from just forgetting to be a leader or managing the game or worrying where we play, and just concentrating on tempo.
Scrum was good and lineout 100% so some things to be happy about.
It’s pretty clear Liam isn’t the player he was, three massive costly errors in his last two games amongst the reminders of his class.
Good to see Michelow well involved once he came on and looking comfortable.
Fergus looked ponderous at Christchurch/Canterbury and while he has improved significantly as this season has gone on, he will never deliver the leadership that Faz did.
IVZ is a good scrum half, but he's not world class.
I cannot think of improvements whom we could sign ... and stay within the salary cap. Ooops 🤣
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Our scrum has hugely improved this year and Carre has been a big part of that but there is also Ricioni getting back to full fitness and as others have said Brantingham looks decent. At least now I am not wincing every time a scrum is awarded. Our back row is world class and with the performances of Harry Wilson, Tizard returning next week and Iziekwe to come back from injury we have the beginnings of some decent competition in the second row. It therefore feels to me that we have the players to compete in every game but for some reason our attack is not really firing. This has to be in part due to coaching and gameplan so agreed we need to look to the coaches and they should not be above criticism.
As for the game itself, Munster turned over so much ball that not to score a try was hugely disappointing. I know it is early days but Williams looks off the pace at the moment and the sooner we get Tobias Elliot back in the better. Olly Hartley also looks in decent nick so looking forward to seeing more of him.
Lastly, a word on the commentary - it was far and away the best commentated game I have seen for a while. The guys commentating were impartial and insightful - it was such a joy not to have to listen to the absurd histrionics of Healey or the dull statements of the bleeding obvious from Dallaglio. No complaints about the ref's performance even if he is a slightly absurd figure.
Quote:JimG
Lastly, a word on the commentary - it was far and away the best commentated game I have seen for a while. The guys commentating were impartial and insightful - it was such a joy not to have to listen to the absurd histrionics of Healey or the dull statements of the bleeding obvious from Dallaglio
Agree with this.
And the comms for La Rochelle v Leinster was very good too imo.
Quote:#wolfpack1Quote:JimG
Lastly, a word on the commentary - it was far and away the best commentated game I have seen for a while. The guys commentating were impartial and insightful - it was such a joy not to have to listen to the absurd histrionics of Healey or the dull statements of the bleeding obvious from Dallaglio
Agree with this.
And the comms for La Rochelle v Leinster was very good too imo.
I believe that was Nick Heath, he's definitely one of the better commentators out there. None of the hyperbole that a lot of them spout.
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