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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:08:16:47:09 by Darraghgirl.

I’m just reading the Times piece on Earl and seeing that he was top in metres made and second in line breaks
by a back row forward. Not far behind him is JMG at 4th and 3rd. I can’t be the only one who’s pant wet tingly excited to see them in the same back row!

5 points desperately need here and almost as important we need a quality performance which has been lacking recently or at the very least something more to build on with an extremely tough Jan coming up.

We’ve slipped up at home to Falcons before in the Xmas fixture (Watford c2007) and it has been a much shorter training week. I suspect a lot of big names will be rested , but hopeful of a couple of returnees.

let us hope and pray that we get our scrum sorted by Saturday

Saracens Men team to play Newcastle Falcons:

1 Mako Vunipola (c)
2 Theo Dan
3 Christian Judge
4 Theo McFarland
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Toby Knight
8 Andy Christie
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Manu Vunipola
11 Lucio Cinti
12 Olly Hartley
13 Elliot Daly
14 Rotimi Segun
15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Jamie George
17 Tom West
18 Ollie Hoskins
19 Nick Isiekwe
20 Ben Earl
21 Billy Vunipola
22 Gareth Simpson
23 Tom Parton



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:29:12:02:50 by Sarriebone.

Falcons side:

15 Tom Penny,
14 Adam Radwan,
13 Matias Moroni,
12 Matias Orlando,
11 Iwan Stephens,
10 Rory Jennings,
9 Hugh O’Sullivan;
1 Phil Brantingham,
2 Jamie Blamire,
3 Eduardo Bello,
4 Kiran McDonald,
5 Sebastian de Chaves,
6 Pedro Rubiolo,
7 Guy Pepper,
8 Callum Chick (captain).

Replacements:
16 Bryan Byrne,
17 Adam Brocklebank,
18 Murray McCallum,
19 Tim Cardall,
20 Ollie Leatherbarrow,
21 James Elliott,
22 Brett Connon,
23 George Wacokecoke.

Interesting selection.
Great to see Daley, Segun, Isiekwe and Earl back from injury

Tompkins gets a rest!

Like the look of that team on paper. Obviously need to get the scrum right and I hope they give Manu the keys and let him run the show.

Starting pack looks a bit light weight to me , but the bench rather compensates for that ….i am particularly looking forward to seeing Hartley and Daley as a combination !

Concerned that there are too many changes and not enough leadership.
In Mark McCall we trust.

There are certainly some wheels in the backs with Parton, Daly, Cinti and Segun.

I like the selection giving some key players a much needed break and other players an opportunity to impress. There is some pretty heavy duty replacements on the bench if the game is going sideways at 50mins.
Hope for an energetic and imposing performance tomorrow.

Was at the training session and in addition to those rested/injured neither Goodey or Gonzalez were there either, must have had a note from their mums asking to be excused. I was getting concerned what our back up options at 10 were but clearly Goodey.

HUGE CONGRATS to those who are back from injuries! Hoskins, Earl, Isiekwe, Daly and Segun all big boosts to have back. We need a big physical game today - Earl, Isiekwe and B V certainly offer physicality off the bench. A lot of lineout threat with McFarland, Tizard and Gonzalez all jumpers. Itoje, Tompkins and Faz notable absentees, with Riccioni, Adams Hale, Mawi and Lozowski all still injured.

Really not sure about this one. That's a lot of rotation. Also Falcons are a nuggety team and they have some very good backs in open play. Despite their results they have definitely been improving since we played them at the beginning of the season.

The huge pluses are the returning players, a rest for Tompkins, the chance for Manu (hopefully) to be given charge and with the weather having changed from rainy to possibly dry no excuses re playing without the ball all game. Also good to see Hoskins available. I had high hopes he and West would help solidify our scrum so seeing them come on with George should hopefully give us a good idea.

Tbh this feels like a huge banana skin of a game. Hopefully we're not already thinking of New Years Eve and put a proper performance out there.

Twitter suggests today is sold out. Here's hoping for a performance to reward that

Blimey it's a bit parky here. First time I've ever felt jealous of the (spoiler alert!) person in the Sarrie the Camel outfit.
They'll need to play "running rugby" to stay warm!!
COYS

Quote:

OldMarovian
Really not sure about this one. That's a lot of rotation. Also Falcons are a nuggety team and they have some very good backs in open play. Despite their results they have definitely been improving since we played them at the beginning of the season.
The huge pluses are the returning players, a rest for Tompkins, the chance for Manu (hopefully) to be given charge and with the weather having changed from rainy to possibly dry no excuses re playing without the ball all game. Also good to see Hoskins available. I had high hopes he and West would help solidify our scrum so seeing them come on with George should hopefully give us a good idea.

Tbh this feels like a huge banana skin of a game. Hopefully we're not already thinking of New Years Eve and put a proper performance out there.

Definite potential for an upset today, especially with the weather. We have to rotate though and with all due respect to Newcastle this has to be the fixture we do so. Especially after two losses at home, we have to throw everything at the away matches now.

JMG and IVZ are class the rest is pretty depressing tbh.
Early subs please.

Why did Mako get a red card?

Quote:

OldMarovian
JMG and IVZ are class the rest is pretty depressing tbh.
Early subs please.

I love IVZ but I thought his delivery in the first half was a bit off by his high standards, could be wrong though.I thought Christie was very good too, always making metres in contact.

Good to get the win but lots to work on and potentially a crisis at loosehead, I assume Mulipola will be starting with Crean on the bench if Mako’s red card is upheld.

Quote:

tigersimon
Why did Mako get a red card?

Don’t worry, it will be overturned in time for next week. Why deny Tigers the chance to feed on our scrum? Everyone else has.

Forgot to say, great to have Segun back, such a danger ball in hand and loves a turnover too.

5 points. I hope the players enjoy the rest of the weekend and have a great start to the New Year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:30:19:58:41 by OldMarovian.

Whilst by no means a perfect performance a solid win, 5 points and a fair bit of entertainment in front of a large crowd was a decent outcome. Great to see Daly, Earl and Isiekwe back in the colours.

I can remember plenty of poor games at Vicarage Road in front of the large Twixtmas crowd. One of the worst was losing to London Irish with the last kick of the game!

We were a bit too cavalier with tapped penalties that were never on although IVZ did score from one taken well in front of the mark it seemed.
Cinti had a very good game, as did Parton when he came on.
Our defence was very good when we needed it to be.
Newcastle gave us a far harder game than they did up there and defended extremely well.
Manu did well too

Quote:

TommyKentish
Forgot to say, great to have Segun back, such a danger ball in hand and loves a turnover too.

Agreed. He's fit now so lets see him given a run of games.
14 carries, 3 line-breaks, 2 turn-overs. Caused panic every time he got the ball and he's so strong in contact.

Daly with the most dominant tackles! (2)

If anyone has a clip of Manu's carry where he sent the tackler flying I'd love to see it again

Mako red card should definitely be rescinded as big Nick made the first tackle and it lowered the height of the Falcons player - ref should’ve realised that, it was obvious. Andy, JMG, Cinti, Tiz all very good and agree that one of the best games I’ve seen Roti play, he did a lot of the grunt - fair play.

Hope West is ok. It looked like he was removed for an HIA.

Quote:

OldMarovian
Hope West is ok. It looked like he was removed for an HIA.

He was, and he failed it so definitely out next Saturday

Quote:

Sarriebone
If anyone has a clip of Manu's carry where he sent the tackler flying I'd love to see it again

That was right in front of us, absolutely demolished him. I think I’ve seen it mentioned here before but he’s got the potential to play 12 with that power.

Quote:

TommyKentish

Quote:

Sarriebone
If anyone has a clip of Manu's carry where he sent the tackler flying I'd love to see it again

That was right in front of us, absolutely demolished him. I think I’ve seen it mentioned here before but he’s got the potential to play 12 with that power.

The only shot of it we got on tv was wide angle from the other side of the pitch, I was hoping for a better replay of it

Given we've Tompkins and Hartley at 12 lets let him concentrate on being the best 10 he can! It felt like he benefitted from running things today rather than being a spare wheel with Goode stepping in at 10 all the time. The overall performance was scrappy but I think maybe that's a reality of cold weather and unfamiliar combinations.

Having watched two of the other games from this weekend the thing that really stands out is certain teams; Chiefs, Saints, Sale (Bath too though they haven't played yet) are really on the same page and play as teams. Today we felt a lot like some very talented individuals most of whom weren't quite on the same page. I'd guess that's the reality of a team disrupted by injury and rested players tbf.

Quote:

OldMarovian

Quote:

TommyKentish
Forgot to say, great to have Segun back, such a danger ball in hand and loves a turnover too.

Daly with the most dominant tackles! (2)

Back to his World Cup form then when he was top of the table for dominant tackles for a while!

Our scrum is a real concern at the moment, we are getting crucified every game and we are turning knock ons into full penalties alot.

Anyone Else find that TNT did not record the game. well they might have shown it but Q box couldn't find it?

Do Androids dream of electric sheep?

Quote:

Timfi
Anyone Else find that TNT did not record the game. well they might have shown it but Q box couldn't find it?

It was on the red button, not sure if it's possible to record off there

We tried to record but couldn't make it work. Highlights on at 13.30 so will rewatch then.

Unlike many comments on here I saw a rather disjointed team performance, poor in the set piece, atrocious at scrum, not up to par in passing and seemingly incapable of noting in the first half high kicks were always going to stall and blow back. Our scrum didnt look much better when the front row was changed out which is worrying. Our strength in depth in some positions, notably props and fly half is lacking for a potential Premiership finalist team never mind one wanting to go far in Europe. When the 2 French teams we play next month look at film of our scrums recently they will be licking their lips in anticipation. We got a 5 point win but please remember who against, a team that hasnt won all season and came bottom last year too. For me the whole team performance has dropped since last year and given the big improvements elsewhere like Bath, Exeter and Saints a final in May looks very unlikely this year. We must all pray OF doesn't get an injury as sadly Manu hasn't improved that much and we don't seem to have anyone else putting any pressure on the succession plan. Some fit 1st choice props will be needed if we get to the knock out stage in Europe too. None of the 4 put out yesterday will hack it against the big Irish or French teams

Quote:

maynas
Unlike many comments on here I saw a rather disjointed team performance, poor in the set piece, atrocious at scrum, not up to par in passing and seemingly incapable of noting in the first half high kicks were always going to stall and blow back. Our scrum didnt look much better when the front row was changed out which is worrying. Our strength in depth in some positions, notably props and fly half is lacking for a potential Premiership finalist team never mind one wanting to go far in Europe. When the 2 French teams we play next month look at film of our scrums recently they will be licking their lips in anticipation. We got a 5 point win but please remember who against, a team that hasnt won all season and came bottom last year too. For me the whole team performance has dropped since last year and given the big improvements elsewhere like Bath, Exeter and Saints a final in May looks very unlikely this year. We must all pray OF doesn't get an injury as sadly Manu hasn't improved that much and we don't seem to have anyone else putting any pressure on the succession plan. Some fit 1st choice props will be needed if we get to the knock out stage in Europe too. None of the 4 put out yesterday will hack it against the big Irish or French teams

I agree entirely.

Quote:

maynas
We must all pray OF doesn't get an injury as sadly Manu hasn't improved that much and we don't seem to have anyone else putting any pressure on the succession plan.

I honestly wonder if we watched the same game maynas?
With no hyperbole that was a more complete performance than any I have seen from Farrell this season for Sarries.
I 100% accept that the quality of the opposition is a factor in that and Manu benefitted from playing with the excellent IVZ but behind a struggling scrum and with many unfamiliar combinations.
I honestly thought that was a statement performance and he was one of our top players. His kicking from hand was good and his short-kicking game continues to be superior to what Farrell offers as does his willingness and ability to take on the line. The variety and accuracy of his passing was first class whether dropping pop passes off his shoulder, flat miss passes on the line or huge miss passes to get our wings involved. The only negatives I could see were kicking at sticks where he was no worse than Farrell has been and a passage of play around 70 minutes where he passed a ball to no one and an offload that wasn't on. Other than that it was a first class performance.
Would it be a big step up for him to be our starter in big games? (if Farrell wasn't available) Yes, absolutely, but equally he'd be surrounded by our starting team rather than a somewhat rotated one.
I think he's hugely under-valued and people are incredibly unrealistic about what level of second choice 10 a team can have if they're going to spend £800K? on their starter.
On a connected note senior players were wasteful of great chances through poor decision-making and execution and yet that garners no comment??



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:31:19:26:08 by OldMarovian.

On a more general note having watched the game on TV now I thought there were quite a few positives I didn't pick up at the game.
Huge credit to Falcons. In the first half in particular I thought they defended exceptionally. My feeling is we left three pretty clear chances for Trys out there and one 50/50.
One of those (a pass to no one after one player over-ran and another came short) was an obvious miscommunication. It's a shame it resulted in Radwans try but he took it beautifully (Happy Birthday to him!!) A couple of poor passes and a player not looking inside for support counted for the rest but the positive for me was we created chances and the understanding will come and this was a very unfamiliar team.

I thought Mako carried and distributed at the line very well. Knight was full of running and ofc JMG and Christie were superb. Didn't notice it live but glimpses of the Tizard that played at Quins with good carries and nice offloads. I thought IVZ had a very good game indeed and it was a real shame Hartleys try didn't stand. Also great to see more instances of Theo doing Theo things As said above I thought Manu was excellent.
Some of our more senior players made bad calls and worse execution when we were in very promising positions.

The scrum is a real concern. West was a starter at Tigers who take their scrum seriously. Hopefully he is ok after his failed HIA but we obviously won't see him for at least one game. Hoskins likewise was very solid at LI. It will be interesting to see our approach to Tigers. Right now it feels like we need a plan that avoids scrums and any potential penalties that might lead to them! Tricky ...

That accords much more with my view of the game. JMG is exceptional and just about deserved MoM on his first half performance. Incidentally do we know why he went of at half time? The game was very much in the balance then and unless he had a knock then I would have expected Knight to give way for Earl’s return. Christie was again all action.

Agreed Newcastle defended very well assisted by referee and line judges who allowed them to live off side. Or so it seemed to me from the stands.

Also interested to know from watching on tv what the call was for the Hartley non try.

IVZs ultimate tip-on adjudged as forward JimG.

Thanks. Assume the TMO had better angles than the view shown in the ground as it certainly wasn’t obvious from that.

I thought the ref was pretty poor generally. Christie robbed of at least one fair turnover and very lax with the offside line.

Not as bad as Dickson in the first half today though! Leicester probably too strong for a heavily rotated Bath but doesn’t help when you are playing 16.

Quote:

OldMarovian
IVZs ultimate tip-on adjudged as forward JimG.

From the view on screen, it looked as though he tried to tip it back from his hand, which was facing backwards, if you see what I mean and it also looked like his other arm was being pulled back.

Quote:

OldMarovian
IVZs ultimate tip-on adjudged as forward JimG.

From the view on screen, it looked as though he tried to tip it back from his hand, which was facing backwards, if you see what I mean and it also looked like his other arm was being pulled back.

It was the offside Falcons backs that caused the disruption leading to the Radwan try.
There were no scrums in the first half hour at Leicester and only a few overall. We can but hope!

MS it seemed fine both at the game and watching it on TV to me but I guess we don't have all the angles. Not saying I agreed with the call just that it was the one given as a reason.

Oddly I was stood at the top of the steps for the piazza at the time - it looked very forward from there. But I don't think that would be any better (probably worse) than the TV angle.

HNY everyone : )

Quote:

OldMarovian

Quote:

maynas
We must all pray OF doesn't get an injury as sadly Manu hasn't improved that much and we don't seem to have anyone else putting any pressure on the succession plan.

I honestly wonder if we watched the same game maynas?
With no hyperbole that was a more complete performance than any I have seen from Farrell this season for Sarries.
I 100% accept that the quality of the opposition is a factor in that and Manu benefitted from playing with the excellent IVZ but behind a struggling scrum and with many unfamiliar combinations.
I honestly thought that was a statement performance and he was one of our top players. His kicking from hand was good and his short-kicking game continues to be superior to what Farrell offers as does his willingness and ability to take on the line. The variety and accuracy of his passing was first class whether dropping pop passes off his shoulder, flat miss passes on the line or huge miss passes to get our wings involved. The only negatives I could see were kicking at sticks where he was no worse than Farrell has been and a passage of play around 70 minutes where he passed a ball to no one and an offload that wasn't on. Other than that it was a first class performance.
Would it be a big step up for him to be our starter in big games? (if Farrell wasn't available) Yes, absolutely, but equally he'd be surrounded by our starting team rather than a somewhat rotated one.
I think he's hugely under-valued and people are incredibly unrealistic about what level of second choice 10 a team can have if they're going to spend £800K? on their starter.
On a connected note senior players were wasteful of great chances through poor decision-making and execution and yet that garners no comment??

I agree he had a very encouraging performance, especially when he could’ve let his head drop after the Radwan try. His involvements in the JMG are great, with us going backs wards he runs hard, pulls in two defenders and makes the offload for the initial break then covers IVZ at 9 to get the ball out quickly. [x.com]

4 match ban for Mako... [saracens.com]

Will be interesting to read the citing report. I felt there might have been some mitigation given he was the secondary tackler but can also see why it might not have been given.
A tough four weeks just become even tougher.

The Saracens news item links to the decision.

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

Tks AP I missed that. tigersimon linked it elsewhere though.

Having read the citing report and viewed the incident I still don’t quite agree with the panel upholding the red, I do think there is sufficient mitigation there with big Nick’s tackle (as it were!).

So only fit LH we have at the moment is Creen I think - can’t Mulipola play both sides of the scrum? Perhaps we can get someone on loan as emergency cover.

Strangelove, Yes Logo can play both sides, but won’t last the 80! (If he ever could!)
How is this 9/10 years ago?
[youtu.be]

Also not the answer to OF Place kicking % at the moment 🤣
See
[youtu.be]

So expect him to start and Creen to bench (Thanks to OM for information about Sam)

One query regarding Mako’s disciplinary outcome. I thought failure to wrap under HCP ruled out Mitigation. The report notes left arm failed to wrap so does that rule out mitigation or Is it if both arms fail to wrap too rule out mitigation?

Re Mako and mitigation - If you read the disciplinary report it states that they viewed the initial tackle from Nick wasn't considered to have caused enough of a change in dynamic to have mitigated the red down to a yellow. So it would appear they accept there was a wrap (his right arm definitely wraps).