Thanks James
As the forecaast is "windy" and the referee is Ian Tempest don't hold your breath for an entertaining game of flowing rugby!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:04:07:38:56 by Darraghgirl.

Rarely is on a winters evening on Friday at the AJ Bell!

Saracens Men team to play Sale Sharks:

1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Alec Clarey
4 Maro Itoje
5 Theo McFarland
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Andy Christie
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Sean Maitland
12 Olly Hartley
13 Nick Tompkins
14 Lucio Cinti
15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Theo Dan
17 Tom West
18 Logovi’i Mulipola
19 Hugh Tizard
20 Toby Knight
21 Gareth Simpson
22 Manu Vunipola
23 Tom Parton



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:21:12:13:32 by Sarriebone.

Saracens Men team to play Sale Sharks:

1 Mako Vunipola

2 Jamie George

3 Alec Clarey

4 Maro Itoje

5 Theo McFarland

6 Juan Martin Gonzalez

7 Andy Christie

8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ivan van Zyl

10 Owen Farrell (c)

11 Sean Maitland

12 Olly Hartley

13 Nick Tompkins

14 Lucio Cinti

15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 Theo Dan

17 Tom West

18 Logovi’i Mulipola

19 Hugh Tizard

20 Toby Knight

21 Gareth Simpson

22 Manu Vunipola

23 Tom Parton

Team looks pretty much full strength including Nick "Every-ready Bunny" Tompkins. Interested to see more of Hartley/Tompkins combo though. Think we might have benefitted from West and Tizard starting to strengthen the set piece but we'll see how it goes? Sales young bench TH looks incredible so maybe keeping Wests powder dry till then? Time for a proper big game performance from Billy.

At this stage would take any points from this game. In a slightly different way to Sarries Sale (despite being top) have looked pretty unconvincing at times this season although I have no doubt this is a game they will get up for with Sanderson in charge.

Really enjoying Sale Festive themed team-sheet. Will Fordy be known as "Jingle" for the rest of his career? Sale look very strong and obviously had a week off last week. Will be interesting to see if that pays off. With Sarries looking long in the legs in recent games hard to see how it could not. Hope we're switched on for Fords kicks over the defensive line and cross-field.

Good luck to the team. Safe travels to them and the travelling support. Extra pigs-in-blankets and gravy for Tompkins!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:21:12:20:47 by OldMarovian.

Sale Sharks Starting XV:  

15. Joe Carpenter , 14. Tom Roebuck, 13. Rob du Preez, 12. Manu Tuilagi, 11. Arron Reed, 10. George Ford, 9. Gus Warr 1. Ross Harrison, 2. Agustin Creevy, 3. Nick Schonert, 4. Cobus Wiese 5. Jonny Hill, 6. Ernst van Rhyn, 7. Ben Curry ©, 8. Jean-Luc du Preez.  

Replacements:  

16. Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17. Tumy Onasanya, 18. Asher Opoku-Fordjour, 19. Josh Beaumont, 20. Sam Dugdale, 21. Nye Thomas, 22. Sam James, 23. Sam Bedlow.  

Maybe a slight risk considering minutes played by certain people but our hand has been forced by the Saints defeat and at least we have Isiewke, Earl and Segun on their way back. I’m assuming Daly’s hamstring is still causing issues which is a shame.

Olly Hartley so far this season has faced Esterhuizen, Aki and now Manu. Straight in the deep end!

Surprised there aren't more comments on this game.

It will mark half way through the normal season and both teams look strong although Sale seem far less impacted by injuries. Quite interesting to read quite a few posters on their board suggesting they'd have preferred RDP at 10. Given he fired few shots in the Final it feels all set up for Ford to prove his doubters wrong.

The table is looking super competitive too. Also fun that the top4 all play others in the top4 this weekend.
4 points separate Chiefs in 6th and Sale in first. Chiefs can't go top no matter what the other results (A Bath/Quins draw puts Bath above Chiefs getting a TBP win) The table might suggest Saints have the best chance to leap up the table with a fixture against 9th ranked Glaws but who knows?

Hopefully we're treated to a round of great games (and a win for Sarries)

The Times has got a good interview with George Ford today by John Westerby. He comes across as the nice chap we know him to be.

The Times has also got a Stuart Barnes article saying that Ford is too conservative and England need to find someone more like Finn Russell (though they wouldn't pick him if they could - eh?).

Lots of interesting comments under both articles and some of those are putting RDP ahead at 10.

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

In the words of Han Solo...”I got a bad feeling about this.” Let’s hope the boys prove me wrong, good luck lads, will be watching on the box.

Friday night, cold, wet and blowing a gale (we're 30 miles away and it's foul), so not very hopeful.

How many times are we penalised for back chat, get marched back 10 yards ? Brainless!

Controversially, I think we’ve looked much better with Aled at 9 so far this season. We look very slow with IVZ surprisingly, and some silly errors.

I take it back!

What are the scrum stats this season? Something needs to change; we’ve had a full half of the season and our scrum has to be the worst in the league by miles

Quote:

#wolfpack1
What are the scrum stats this season? Something needs to change; we’ve had a full half of the season and our scrum has to be the worst in the league by miles

6 scrum pens.

It’s unacceptable

Bonus point was actually a bonus! Scrum was awful. Surprised Sale didn’t go for a BP!

Quote:

#wolfpack1

Quote:

#wolfpack1
What are the scrum stats this season? Something needs to change; we’ve had a full half of the season and our scrum has to be the worst in the league by miles

6 scrum pens.

It’s unacceptable

7 scrum pens.

They gave us far too much respect at the end.

We look a very very average side at the moment.

To get a losing bonus point with that complete mess of a scrum is pretty miraculous.

We are really struggling without Mawi and Riccioni.

Not sure what the answer is.

Too many scrum pens, well done Sale but if our scrum was getting hosed too many times. Are we looking to resign Carre from Cardiff?

Injuries costing us dearly. Forwards are getting dominated - Billy and Mako both looking unfit and petulant when things don’t go their way. In Earls absence we don’t have anyone breaking the gainline or causing a nuisance at the breakdown.
Teams working out how to stifle our back play by adopting line speed.
Problems both sides of the ball at the moment.
To take a bonus point from that game is exceptional.

Before we all blame injuries; everyone has them.

There is enough quality in our available squad to be playing much much better than we are at the moment.

We could at least try to score once in a while rather just kick the ball away every play.

Exeter and Northampton win tomorrow and we are down in 6th after half the season.
A fair reflection of where we are.

The squad needs a bit of a shake up.

Is it Maro's haircut?

We desperately need to invest in props who can scrum first and do the other bits second. Riccioni, Mawi, Mako, Hoskins all seem to be guys who are better round the park than in the scrum.

I thought Maro was one of the few who stayed in the fight against a strong Sale pack and was probably unlucky not to get a couple of turnover penalties but Tempest is quite reluctant to give them.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
Before we all blame injuries; everyone has them.
There is enough quality in our available squad to be playing much much better than we are at the moment.

We could at least try to score once in a while rather just kick the ball away every play.

Exeter and Northampton win tomorrow and we are down in 6th after half the season.
A fair reflection of where we are.

The squad needs a bit of a shake up.

Everyone has them but not everyone is having to flog guys who have come straight back from the World Cup and barely had a break. Maro, George, Gonzalez, Tompkins, Faz even Billy have been playing non-stop.

Quote:

TommyKentish

Quote:

#wolfpack1
Before we all blame injuries; everyone has them.
There is enough quality in our available squad to be playing much much better than we are at the moment.

We could at least try to score once in a while rather just kick the ball away every play.

Exeter and Northampton win tomorrow and we are down in 6th after half the season.
A fair reflection of where we are.

The squad needs a bit of a shake up.

Everyone has them but not everyone is having to flog guys who have come straight back from the World Cup and barely had a break. Maro, George, Gonzalez, Tompkins, Faz even Billy have been playing non-stop.

I am not convinced that these guys had to play every week.
Theo Dan has had two starts since returning from World Cup? Jamie doesn’t need to play every week.
Cinti is an international centre - yet we play him on a wing and play Tompkins every week.
Even without Willis and Earl we have back row forwards available. Toby Knight gets 3 mins a week. McFarland is playing in the second row, with Tizzard on the bench.

But even if we had rotated more, would things be dramatically different? Our one attacking play would still be the grubber kick.

It’s clearly not working, and injuries or not - we’re now halfway through the season, and we look a long way off the pace in premiership let alone Europe. Something needs to happen very soon or we’ll struggle to make the play offs.

In other news, Ali Crossdale is having a stormer for Perpignan. I wonder how long his contract is and if he’d like to take a shot and the England squad….

Quote:

#wolfpack1

Quote:

TommyKentish

Quote:

#wolfpack1
Before we all blame injuries; everyone has them.
There is enough quality in our available squad to be playing much much better than we are at the moment.

We could at least try to score once in a while rather just kick the ball away every play.

Exeter and Northampton win tomorrow and we are down in 6th after half the season.
A fair reflection of where we are.

The squad needs a bit of a shake up.

Everyone has them but not everyone is having to flog guys who have come straight back from the World Cup and barely had a break. Maro, George, Gonzalez, Tompkins, Faz even Billy have been playing non-stop.

I am not convinced that these guys had to play every week.
Theo Dan has had two starts since returning from World Cup? Jamie doesn’t need to play every week.
Cinti is an international centre - yet we play him on a wing and play Tompkins every week.
Even without Willis and Earl we have back row forwards available. Toby Knight gets 3 mins a week. McFarland is playing in the second row, with Tizzard on the bench.

But even if we had rotated more, would things be dramatically different? Our one attacking play would still be the grubber kick.

It’s clearly not working, and injuries or not - we’re now halfway through the season, and we look a long way off the pace in premiership let alone Europe. Something needs to happen very soon or we’ll struggle to make the play offs.

Cinti may play centre for Argentina but that’s probably because their wings are so good, he played on the wing for Irish everytime I saw him play for them and kept some very good players out of the side. He looks like he’s struggling to find his feet a bit so putting him and Hartley in the midfield together would be a horrible way to start them both off.

Dan could get more starts but we’d still need George on the bench as Wolfy/Pifeleti are injured. With Isiekwe out too then that leaves Christie calling the lineouts which he’s only done a few times.

I also think not having Daly at 15 (or Malins coming off his wing) hasn’t helped our attacking play. We are grubber kicking lot because we lack punch up front and quick ball- something Earl and Isiekwe will help with massively.

The league is very tight at the moment, we’ve Newcastle at home, Tigers away and Exeter at home. I’d hope to get two wins and maybe a LBP at Tigers out of that which would have us in decent stead for the run in after the 6 nations.

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
To get a losing bonus point with that complete mess of a scrum is pretty miraculous

I'd have taken a point before the game and am happy to do so know. Sale not getting a TBP also a "result" in the context of the game.
Well done on the win to Sale. I think Tempo almost certainly should have carded one of our props for persistent penalties so we got away with it there. Maro looked good (haircut and play) and it was great to see glimmers of the McFarland that can change games. IVZ probably worth a 14 point swing with his tap-tackle on Ford and his intercept. Simpson looked good when he came on. JMG good again but a few costly penalties.
Safe journey home to all the players and I hope they have a good Christmas and a well deserved break.

In terms of the actual game that joins the loses at home to Bath and Saints where I felt we were undone by an almost total lack of ambition.
Take out IVZs interception and Maros break and what did we create? Pretty much nothing but we were still happy to hoof the ball away at every chance. I understand playing the conditions but keeping the ball in hand and backing our very skilful backs and forwards is also doing that. With Billy a shadow of his former self and our backrow options quality but lighter players we are surely better suited to opening things up a bit?

The reality is the front row problems aren't being solved anytime soon with both Mawi and Riccioni out for a while. I think pairing Maro with Tizard might add some power in the engine room. Move McFarland to 6 where he has always played best and drop Billy to the bench to accommodate JMG or a returning Earl at 8.
We also need to work harder on the things that are in our control. When is the backchat going to end? Yes it was a carp call (JMG didn't play the arm) but the referee isn't going to change their mind. The message isn't getting through and its the same players again and again. If they're not being fined time to start doing so as the message isn't getting through.

Yes we are missing lots of players but we can't rely on the cavalry returning to sort it all out. Sale were decent but made lots of errors too and this was, as it turned out, a game with a very winnable "loss" margin. Not if you're going to try and play without the ball though.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
We could at least try to score once in a while rather just kick the ball away every play

This^
I think we just need to play ball in hand a bit more. We have some incredibly talented open field players in backs and forwards but they're marginalised by our conservative gameplan. I appreciate that it's a different situation when we're nearer fully loaded but who knows how the season will pan out? maybe this is as fully loaded as it gets and this rugby isn't winning anything come the end of the season.

TK not sure we see scrums the same. Both Riccioni and Mawi (the former in particular) are excellent scrummagers as well as being great in the loose. Hoskins and West are both good scrummagers but we've seen little of them due to injuries. Sale have a very good scrum as we know (if was the one area they were fully in top in last seasons Final even with our almost full team) so it was always going to be a hard day at the office.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:22:22:30:03 by OldMarovian.

If we’re not getting quick ball and passes aren’t sticking to hand like today then I don’t mind the kicking game but it’s frustrating when we don’t do it well. Sale did it excellently, forcing Goodey into a couple of errors which is rare these days but I felt we didn’t put any much pressure on their back 3.

Not sure how we came away with a LBP, but will take it. Scrum is worrying, we need to start little Theo we always look better when he comes on. Mako also needs a ‘rest’ we are sorely missing Eroni in pack and loose. Maro and Simpson were the only plus points. Why isn’t Lewi starting, he is our most potent strike runner and we lack pace in the back 3 without him and playing Sean and Goode.

Quote:

TommyKentish
If we’re not getting quick ball and passes aren’t sticking to hand like today then I don’t mind the kicking game but it’s frustrating when we don’t do it well.

Were (m)any of our kicks contestable? it didn't feel like it. A kicking game could equally be putting it off the field and forcing them to take lineouts against our strong lineout defence. As identified by comms we also protected the catcher poorly.
It would be great to write this off but too many of our losses this season have felt like we've barely thrown, let alone landed, a punch.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:22:22:59:00 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

OldMarovian
It would be great to right this off but too many of our losses this season have felt like we've barely thrown, let alone landed, a punch.

Agree entirely.

A severely limited game plan is ok if the set piece was dominant and the defence watertight. But the set piece is a shambles and the defence is rather leaky.

If we’re going to concede 3-4 tries a game like we have been, we have to be more ambitious in attack.

The selection and tactics are very confusing at the moment.

We desperately miss Max Malins

Quote:

OldMarovian

Quote:

TommyKentish
If we’re not getting quick ball and passes aren’t sticking to hand like today then I don’t mind the kicking game but it’s frustrating when we don’t do it well.

Were (m)any of our kicks contestable? it didn't feel like it. A kicking game could equally be putting it off the field and forcing them to take lineouts against our strong lineout defence. As identified by comms we also protected the catcher poorly.
It would be great to write this off but too many of our losses this season have felt like we've barely thrown, let alone landed, a punch.

Exactly my thoughts on the kicking game OM.

On not throwing a punch I think we are struggling without Earl and Daly in particular who add so much to our attacking game.

Agree that Earl and Daly are missed but we still have quality players but we're not getting the ball in their hands.

I’m not sure it’s a simple as getting just getting the ball to our quality players. We didn’t have enough quick ball (credit to Sale and was also our issue against Saints) to use the backs effectively, they were almost constantly under too much defensive pressure. Last season we played when it was on, not just out of reckless abandon.

The conditions didn't help - very windy and raining by the end. Strangely, with the wind in the second half didn't help much.

There were some interesting stats put up in the pre match chat: defensively, both sides much the (very good) same; in attack we are (were) top two, Sale bottom two. As it proved, Sale had to work hard for their scores.

Still feel we left a win out on the pitch but this wasn't the worst game of the season by any means.

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

Quote:

TommyKentish
I’m not sure it’s a simple as getting just getting the ball to our quality players.

Ofc not. As you say it's a number of things. It's resourcing rucks better so quick ball is an option, it's having players working to get in position so that there are options in attack and defence, etc, etc that said much of yesterday felt tactical. Yes Sale were good but we seemed content to play without the ball, the kicks were down the mid field and not contestable, we didn't put numbers into the ruck to secure quick ball etc I just didn't really get it tbh.

Mark McCall -

"When the scrum was the way ours was tonight, it's extremely difficult to win a game against the quality of Sale, and they're a quality side.“

"It can happen to be dominated in the scrum like that and we've got the players to fix it."

Admitting a selection error or possibility of returning players boosting the scrum?

Is Tom West still carrying an injury?, very poor in the scrum yesterday evening!

Quote:

tigersimon
Mark McCall -
"When the scrum was the way ours was tonight, it's extremely difficult to win a game against the quality of Sale, and they're a quality side.“

"It can happen to be dominated in the scrum like that and we've got the players to fix it."

Admitting a selection error or possibility of returning players boosting the scrum?

Is Tom West still carrying an injury?, very poor in the scrum yesterday evening!

It hasn’t mattered who has played or who we’re playing against this season, our scrum has gone backwards or gone down. Suggests it’s a coaching issue.

tigersimon I don't think so (but don't know)
IMO he was better than Cronin for you but equally I mainly saw him starting I think so with strong combinations. I had thought coming on at the same time as Tizard would strengthen things but we still seemed to struggle.
Sale have a very strong scrum and tbh I thought a few calls were pretty questionable (at least a couple of times Mako was done on the far side, probably rightly, you could see Harrison hinging on the referees side too so resets would have been fairer although not sure that would have helped!)
People are also, understandably, big fans of Dan but he's inexperienced at hooker. Hadfield has looked better at set piece IMO for all that Dan is exceptional in the loose.
Clarey is doing well but also got penalised.
I'm not convinced it is coaching as much as personnel. Also not a reflection on them but rather the reality that the further you go down the squad there will be more inexperienced (relative) players starting.
Some big names under-delivered yesterday and tbh look either tired (understandable for some) or not motivated (less so)

OM & Wolfpack1,

Thanks for the replies.

Peel is still your scrum coach isn’t he?

Not sure where Petris is at the moment? But maybe useful as a consultant, was impressed with the work he did with Tigers at the start of this season.

West was 1st choice LH for Tigers last season and had Montoya & Cole/Heyes alongside him but was performing far better at the scrums than I have seen this season, hence the Question on carrying an injury.
As you say OM, you would have thought him & Tiz would have solidified the scrum!

Appreciate the injuries with your props & the rest of the forwards and that was the point of the first question, does McCall think Hopkins, Isiekwe etc is going to help or was he implying that he should have started with Tiz?

Regarding Tired or un-motivated players, I have seen it many times in RWC years with Tigers and it’s not easy especially with a lengthy injury list. The England players will not be lacking fitness after being with Aled Walters! Itoje is still performing very well!

As an outsider I don’t think either of the Vunipolas are playing that well this season!

5th going into Christmas. Could have done with an upset in one of the other games but not to be.
Some serious work for the second half of the season.
A good Christmas to the team.
Hope to only see Tompkins in the New Year, he's definitely earned it.