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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:03:18:53:06 by Darraghgirl.

BT Sport 2 at 5.30pm immediately after Toulouse v Munster at 3.15pm - that's Sunday afternoon taken care of!

This a be a good test of where we are as a team, particularly if Maro is available. Edinburgh have proved more than a match the last two times we’ve met and it’ll be interesting if we’ve learned how to counter a team like Edinburgh who have a good defence and are a menace at the breakdown.

I feel we’ll need that home advantage for the knockout rounds if we are to proceed into the latter stages, so a lot at stake.

I can’t remember the last time we played the graveyard shift, considering our usual Friday night issues I wonder if that will have an effect.

Doubt any of our England contingent will be available, TK

Sarriebone - all the England players, and other internationals, are available for all the European games

Have a horrible feeling if we lose we could end up in South Africa against the Stormers, which could be a bridge too far.

Quote:

derbyshire fan
Sarriebone - all the England players, and other internationals, are available for all the European games

Ah yes, my mistake, I'm getting my dates mixed up, my brain was thinking Bristol

I was very impressed with Edinburgh last time we played them. They really didn't play much rugby but their defence and breakdown work were incredible. Looking forward to the game and hoping the team can secure a home game for the next stage which feels like it will be pretty important for progression.

Perhaps surprisingly Van der Merwe had a bit of a shocker against us, dropping a couple and letting Daly through pretty softly to score. Good player that he is I don't think that would have happened twice in a row so probably a good thing he isn't playing. Darcy Graham appears to be relatively long term injured as he is not in the Scotland squad. I agree that they looked strong defensively but didn't really play much attacking rugby against us so really hard game to call. Looking forward to making the trip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:19:19:57:30 by JimG.

With such a late k-o, at least both teams will know what they need to do to get a home tie in next round

Saracens Men team to play Edinburgh:

1 Mako Vunipola

2 Jamie George (c)

3 Marco Riccioni

4 Maro Itoje

5 Hugh Tizard

6 Andy Christie

7 Ben Earl

8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ivan van Zyl

10 Alex Goode

11 Sean Maitland

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Alex Lozowski

14 Max Malins

15 Elliot Daly

Replacements:

16 Kapeli Pifeleti

17 Robin Hislop

18 Christian Judge

19 Nick Isiekwe

20 Theo Dan

21 Aled Davies

22 Manu Vunipola

23 Alex Lewington

15. Henry Immelman
14. Jack Blain
13. Mark Bennett
12. James Lang
11. Blair Kinghorn
10. Charlie Savala
9. Ben Vellacott
1. Pierre Schoeman
2. Dave Cherry
3. WP Nel
4. Sam Skinner
5. Grant Gilchrist
6. Jamie Ritchie
7. Luke Crosbie
8. Viliame Mata
Replacements
16. Adam McBurney
17. Boan Venter
18. Lee-Roy Atalifo
19. Jamie Hodgson
20. Nick Haining
21. Henry Pyrgos
22. Cammy Hutchison
23. Wes Goosen

Good to see Maro is ok, our lineup is otherwise much as expected. Maybe best if Dan throws in if/when Jamie comes off?

A few missing for Edinburgh, especially in the back three. I doubt we’ll get any early scrum pressure like last time and can’t rely on dodgy lineouts so we’ll need to be on top form.

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (FRA)
ARs: Pierre-Baptiste Nuchy (FRA) & Jonathan Gasnier (FRA)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (FRA)

Thought Raynal was injured?

Not sure Raynal and Owen get on!?!

Quote:

Carlyle
Not sure Raynal and Owen get on!?!

That's not a problem though.

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EPCR website preview has:

Ref: Ludovic Cayre (France)
Assis Ref 1: Jonathan Gasnier (France)
Assis Ref 2: David Beun (France)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (France)

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Ludovic Cayre has the whistle.. also French. Reynalnis injured so will be watching.. like Owen

So Cameron Hutcinson, arguably Edinburgh motm (sorry star of the match) last weekend on the bench and no Boffelli (who tormented us last time!) and no De Bruin or Harrison either. Still a strong line up from the home side and we won't be able to take anything for granted
Gland to see Daly & Itoje both fit to play - unchanged team from last week although once again the bench looking a little lightweight with the notable exception of Isiekwe.
Hopefully we'll see the Sarries side of the first 40 and not the 2nd!

Quote:

Surbiton Sarries
Referee: Mathieu Raynal (FRA)
ARs: Pierre-Baptiste Nuchy (FRA) & Jonathan Gasnier (FRA)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (FRA)

If you read the article all will berevealed but Raynal is injured

Very happy with the XV. As DG says the bench maybe looks a touch light, Bello injured again? no Segun
I'm not familiar with the Edinburgh players but it sounds a bit like by accident or design they are not at full strength. Mind you they weren't last time either and it was closer than you'd have liked.
Best of luck to the team. Sunday evening is an odd fixture time and sometimes that's unsettled Sarries. Hopefully not an issue this weekend. COYS.

Having seen the two team selections I am feeling more confident that we will get the win on Sunday evening that will give us a home fixture in the knock out rounds. I had thought Maro might be a non starter and I am pleasantly surprised that Bofelli et al are not playing for Edinburgh.

Just a shame that the game is being played at such a rubbish time as some Scottish friends had offered me a ticket but I really couldn’t face the late flight back on a Sunday evening.

The last Sunday teatime one I remember was Northampton away. That didn’t go too bad…..
We’ve also won at Sale on that shift, no mean achievement either

Now that Exeter have got 5 points from their game we know what we need to do,

If we win, 4 or 5 points, we end up 2nd.

If we draw we end up 3rd

If we lose by 6 or fewer points we end up 4th (unless Edinburgh also get a try bonus and we don’t).

Losing by 7 or more we will end up 5th and no home tie.

Henry Slade has made a hell of a difference! Game on, I hate this new system but it's making for a lot less dead rubbers

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
Now that Exeter have got 5 points from their game we know what we need to do,
If we win, 4 or 5 points, we end up 2nd.

If we draw we end up 3rd

If we lose by 6 or fewer points we end up 4th (unless Edinburgh also get a try bonus and we don’t).

Losing by 7 or more we will end up 5th and no home tie.

Really want that second seed. Makes life so much easier. At 1 point today I thought that first seed was up for grabs. Then Leinster did a Leinster

So if we come 2nd likely opponent would be Montpellier?

If we’re 4th likely to have ospreys at home.

And 5th we travel to Leicester.

Is that right?

Quote:

Off the bar
So if we come 2nd likely opponent would be Montpellier?
If we’re 4th likely to have ospreys at home.

And 5th we travel to Leicester.

Is that right?

Quite possibly not!

Montpelier (v L Irish), Munster and Toulouse (against each other) are still to play.

So Montpelier might go above Munster.

If we are fourth, we play the fifth team in Pool B which is currently Toulouse, but Toulouse could move above Ospreys, or Munster displace Toulouse.

If we are fifth. we travel to the fourth team in Pool B which is currently Ospreys but either (or both) of Toulouse and Munster could replace them or indeed knock Tigers to fourth.

Any of Montpelier, Munster, Toulouse or Ospreys at the StoneX would be a great match.

We'll know by kick off!

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:10:12:10 by AP.

Munster at the StoneX would probably be good for the bank balance! also they're great travelling support. I'm quite intrigued by Ospreys resurgence and look forward to seeing how they do in the knock-outs.
I'm not one of those who is bothered about SA teams taking part but anyone going away to SA probably has as tough a draw as anyone playing against 16 men at one of Leinsters "home" venues.

If we dont pull out collective fingers out we aren’t going to be at home to anyone and we’ll be in Leicester, 13-3 down so far and looking uncomfortable and clumsy, all of the front row down and 2 yellow cards. This is looking really bad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:18:07:57 by maynas.

Quote:

Off the bar
So if we come 2nd likely opponent would be Montpellier?
If we’re 4th likely to have ospreys at home.

And 5th we travel to Leicester.

Is that right?

Yes!!!

Unbelievable defence from Sarries. Need to cut out the errors in the second half.

Masters of chaos. let's do the next 40 with a 15 on the field please

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

Is this the new tactic then? Run bent at waist head first into tackler. Tackler gets yellow (or worse) card

Why is Billy V such an idiot? So consistently petulant. Infuriating to watch

Billy once again needs to calm down , you cant just walk away with the ball like that, just petulant. Just doesn’t help when the team is under the cosh like this.
Borthwick must be a worried man over who will be England hooker and now Daly off too



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:18:49:56 by maynas.

Edinburgh controlled the game and we are lucky to get a point. Ref was impossible but that happens. This may be as far as we can go in Europe these days.

That was garbage, utter garbage.

Still don't understand Maro's yellow, looked on the arm to me.

Injuries galore, @#$%& poor discipline, really not good enough.

Suspect bans incoming for George and Riccioni.

Again we were poor don't know why we are struggling so much this year, it's like we look like we are going to click but don't. We are a better team then we have shown. Was that OUR discipline tonight or was we getting a raw deal from the ref? Genuine question

Can’t believe that Edinburgh didn’t know that they needed one more match point to get the home game.

Although we deservedly lost the net result is a home game against Ospreys rather than Montpellier and to be honest that is probably a good outcome for Sarries given the gun team Montpellier could put out if they were serious.

One interesting stat is that the 8 teams that didn’t qualify 5 were French and 3 English. All the URC teams qualified to the knockout stage. Tells me that the URC has been getting stronger!

Quote:

Sarriebone
That was garbage, utter garbage.
Still don't understand Maro's yellow, looked on the arm to me.

Injuries galore, @#$%& poor discipline, really not good enough.

Suspect bans incoming for George and Riccioni.

Maro's yellow was called for offside. Still disagree with that. If you look he was fully outsteched - all 6' 6 and with the arm extended.

Not sure how we managed that. So many errors, however Edinburgh were by far the better team and should have won by more!

Quote:

Harrow Sarrie

Quote:

Sarriebone
That was garbage, utter garbage.
Still don't understand Maro's yellow, looked on the arm to me.

Injuries galore, @#$%& poor discipline, really not good enough.

Suspect bans incoming for George and Riccioni.

Maro's yellow was called for offside. Still disagree with that. If you look he was fully outsteched - all 6' 6 and with the arm extended.

Yeah I agree, looked onside to me

Don't think the ref impacted either. He was fussy and may be a different view of some things than we normally get but can't remember much if anything that was massively wrong.

I raised this about tackling before that the habit of getting your head lower as run into a tackler was an issue. Both decisions were correct, but for Jamie the Edinburgh drive in with his head, Jamie's was not driving into the tackle and neither did Riccioni. There has to be some level of care by the ball carrier too. You cannot put it all on the tackler if the carrier drives in with a lowered head. He has a standard of care he has to have for the tackler too. Trouble is both decisions were correct by the law as it stands.

Can you get cited if you were yellow carded during the game, Sarriebone?

Agree re Billy. Arrogant, and he does it a lot now.

Quote:

Eric Browett
Can you get cited if you were yellow carded during the game, Sarriebone?
Agree re Billy. Arrogant, and he does it a lot now.

I believe so if it was deemed a red by the citing commissioner, could be wrong though

I can't be the only one who thought that their second should have been a penalty to us for obstruction? The Edinburgh player just ran between two of his team mates...

Enjoyed Billy pulling an Eben that ended up in a knock on from them



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:19:48:42 by Sarriebone.

[quote Sarriebone]I can't be the only one who thought that their second should have been a penalty to us for obstruction? The Edinburgh player just ran between two of his team mates...

I thought the same as he became unbound when he feel to his knee. Can't see how they cannot be obstructing if they are in front of him

Billy really needs to stop this behaviour, during the internationals he will become one of our senior players. He has got to show leadership.

Sounds like he’s off to Japan next season. Will be a massive loss but who can blame him if he’s out of England favour and needs to top up his pension pot.

Relax, stuff happens, chill.

I think Edinburgh could beat Tiggers if they play with the same intensity

I can’t believe Sarries allowed Jamie George back on the pitch and said he was only winded. He was clearly knocked out - really poor player welfare

What an absolute clusterfuck of a match. Awful start from us, an entire front row off either injured, carded or both early doors. How Jamie was allowed back on is frankly absurd, it looked horrendous for him. Lots of screaming for two reds, I don’t remember Sexton being red carded for a similar passive head to head recently. Either way though we need to work on tackling height, it’s just not sustainable.

The ref was allowing absolute chaos all over and I think we did well to reverse Edinburgh’s initial superiority at the breakdown. Schoeman (what a match from him!) should’ve had his try looked at, seemed to be obstruction to me. Itoje’s yellow seemed like the one thing that shouldn’t have been carded as I think he got back onside!

Mawi’s offload for Earl’s try was sumptuous and it would’ve been nice to see a bit more of it but for that camera being blocked from the corner.

Delighted we have a home knockout match, Ospreys have shown they’re going to be a massive test. Lots of familiar questions were asked of us today and I’m not sure we’re any closer to finding an answer. Farrell out or not it was up front where the issues were both in physicality and mentality- I swear Billy was begging to be marched back at points. On the positive side, Earl was sensational, his work rate is off the charts.

Quote:

Static
Don't think the ref impacted either. He was fussy and may be a different view of some things than we normally get but can't remember much if anything that was massively wrong.
I raised this about tackling before that the habit of getting your head lower as run into a tackler was an issue. Both decisions were correct, but for Jamie the Edinburgh drive in with his head, Jamie's was not driving into the tackle and neither did Riccioni. There has to be some level of care by the ball carrier too. You cannot put it all on the tackler if the carrier drives in with a lowered head. He has a standard of care he has to have for the tackler too. Trouble is both decisions were correct by the law as it stands.

Can’t agree more, if the safety of the attacking player is solely the responsibility of the defender then we will lose all competition.

Quote:

Westy68
I can’t believe Sarries allowed Jamie George back on the pitch and said he was only winded. He was clearly knocked out - really poor player welfare

He passed a HIA which I think is carried out by an independent doctor? Clearly he then wasn't right at half time and was re-assessed.

I agree it would have been better if he hadn't been cleared first off but I'm not sure it was the club pushing him back on.

Quote:

AP

Quote:

Westy68
I can’t believe Sarries allowed Jamie George back on the pitch and said he was only winded. He was clearly knocked out - really poor player welfare

He passed a HIA which I think is carried out by an independent doctor? Clearly he then wasn't right at half time and was re-assessed.

I agree it would have been better if he hadn't been cleared first off but I'm not sure it was the club pushing him back on.

It was mentioned that Sarries said he was only winded which is why he came back on, it sounded like he didn’t have an HIA. Was he off for 10 minutes?

Well played Edinburgh but pretty funny that they kicked it off at the end instead of trying to take our home tie. Terrible ground from a spectator perspective. Very low rise and pillars absolutely everywhere. Didn’t help that there was zero action anywhere near our corner.

Quote:

Sarriebone
That was garbage, utter garbage.
Still don't understand Maro's yellow, looked on the arm to me.

Injuries galore, @#$%& poor discipline, really not good enough.

Suspect bans incoming for George and Riccioni.

Maro’s yellow was for blocking Edinburgh while offside
If you get a yellow surely that’s it, no citing or further punishment? Not exactly as if they did anything that bad or will be available for us anyway for weeks
Hope Jamie’s HIA not too bad England v short fit hookers!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:22:21:54:20 by maynas.

Maybe its a matter of expectation v reality but given how the game unfolded I think the team deserve huge credit for sticking in there and ultimately getting a home game. Some of the individual performances were exceptional and whilst Billy was fair brimming with attitude today he at least delivered a top performance for much of the game.
Huge props to Hislop and Judge (Ricconi looked superb until the head knock too) both of whom did well at set piece against supposedly superior opposition. Pifeleti had a good game too when he came on. Van Zyl continues to impress and whilst I've been very much in his corner the tempo continuously drops when Davies comes on. Tompkins a human-dynamo as ever and Earl and Christie great. As said above what a great offload out of a double tackle by Mawi. Some exceptional defensive work on Sarries line too. Daly will get his usual pass from most here but kicking away possession on one of the few breaks we had with Maro outside him and a man behind just dull.

I hope George is alright. Hard not to see that as a red though. Had the Edinburgh player gone down in any manner then I suspect George would have seen red regardless of him coming off worse. I do get what people are saying about the attacker needs to carry some responsibility but whether we like it or not those aren't the Laws right now.
Riccionis I thought the mitigation was there. I all happened so quickly but it looked to me that he actively chose not to dip into contact as he realised by the time he did that it would mean head on head contact. Its a very passive tackle that he almost steps back from. Yellow seemed right.
Like others I'm a bit bemused by Maros as I'm not sure he was offside and playing the arm is legal. Agree with others that having detached from the maul I am not sure what clearer evidence you need of obstruction than two Sarries players not being able to make tackles on the carrier because there are Edinburgh playesr in front of him stopping them??
Skinner could easily have been a PT but that might be Sarries-goggles rather than an objective view.
All that said Edinburgh well worth the win. Their LH prop absolutely phenomenal.

Re Jamie George, I trust the club to act in the players interests. I don't believe any game is "big enough" that they'd send out a player who wasn't right. It is worth noting that a few minutes after he comes back out he's prone at a ruck when an Edinburgh player seems to "clear" him with a tucked arm to the head. So maybe that was a contributory factor? Regardless I hope its looked at properly and at the very least it shows that having a neutral Doctor at the ground works as it was their call that got him off.

It’s never good to loose but Ospreys (I know they are playing well) v Montpellier at home or Tigers away. I’ll take it…..

Quote:

JimG
Well played Edinburgh but pretty funny that they kicked it off at the end instead of trying to take our home tie. Terrible ground from a spectator perspective. Very low rise and pillars absolutely everywhere. Didn’t help that there was zero action anywhere near our corner.

On the TV their coach said they were aware of the points but he said he felt they had lost attacking momentum and also they were a player down. Although he didn't say it implicitly I'd take that to mean they thought the risk of losing possession and maybe ending up losing the game wasn't worth the risk in playing on to score the extra points to finish a position above Sarries.

I suspect the Edinburgh frustration at failing to capitalise on their 2 man advantage is not dissimilar to ours against London Irish the other week? We all live to fight another day. Let's get Stone X full to the rafters for the Ospreys who are looking useful, thus far.

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

Quote:

OldMarovian

Quote:

JimG
Well played Edinburgh but pretty funny that they kicked it off at the end instead of trying to take our home tie. Terrible ground from a spectator perspective. Very low rise and pillars absolutely everywhere. Didn’t help that there was zero action anywhere near our corner.

On the TV their coach said they were aware of the points but he said he felt they had lost attacking momentum and also they were a player down. Although he didn't say it implicitly I'd take that to mean they thought the risk of losing possession and maybe ending up losing the game wasn't worth the risk in playing on to score the extra points to finish a position above Sarries.

Hmm. They had the ball (obviously) and I think we would have kicked it out if we had got it back. Anyway no matter. If they are happy so be it but I wouldn’t have been.

I think it's a bit like England taking the draw v New Zealand JimG. A calculation of risk v reward. Who knows whether it's right. Do you think in the reverse situation Sarries would have gone for the extra points?

It’s a kind of compliment in that they didn’t want to risk a win against us for a reward of a home tie

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
Can’t believe that Edinburgh didn’t know that they needed one more match point to get the home game.
Although we deservedly lost the net result is a home game against Ospreys rather than Montpellier and to be honest that is probably a good outcome for Sarries given the gun team Montpellier could put out if they were serious.

One interesting stat is that the 8 teams that didn’t qualify 5 were French and 3 English. All the URC teams qualified to the knockout stage. Tells me that the URC has been getting stronger!

Not comparing apples with apples as you could argue that your are comparing a multi-country league against single country leagues

I’ve always wondered how the URC survived Covid and continues to now, the costs of running a league over 5 countries with the travel issues involved nowadays and many of the teams not getting huge crowds. I guess 5 country’s TV fees helps

Quote:

OldMarovian
I hope George is alright. Hard not to see that as a red though. Had the Edinburgh player gone down in any manner then I suspect George would have seen red regardless of him coming off worse. I do get what people are saying about the attacker needs to carry some responsibility but whether we like it or not those aren't the Laws right now.
Riccionis I thought the mitigation was there. I all happened so quickly but it looked to me that he actively chose not to dip into contact as he realised by the time he did that it would mean head on head contact. Its a very passive tackle that he almost steps back from. Yellow seemed right.

Don't disagree with any of that, and I am happy with the ref's decisions as things stand. But for me it makes it obvious that some coaches are working to the new Law interpretations, not necessarily in the spirit of what's intended - player safety.

Both of Edinburgh's attacking players dropped their right shoulder into contact and aimed their heads at George's and Riccioni's heads respectively. Both defending players were very passive in contact and all the force came from the attacking players. The passivity is presumably why mitigation down to yellow was applied in both cases. While it can be argued that they should have dropped to make the tackle, all this happens very quickly and the Edinburgh players actions looked quite deliberate - both could have avoided head contact but actively sought it out.

This is disgusting and cannot be allowed to stand. Not in this precise case where I am happy the current rules were followed, but in general. The interpretations must be changed.

Contrast it with the actions of the Toulouse player in the Munster game where he charged in to Joey Carbery, lowered his head and the raised it into Carbery's head in contact. That looked completely deliberate but was missed by the officials and not penalised. I hope there is a citing officer intervention and the Toulouse player gets a long ban. Needless to say there were apparently no replays on French TV of this, but I also wasn't happy how Dayglo and O'Driscoll made 'what can you expect of French TV' light of it - this should be called out until it is stopped

Sorry should have clarified in the above that the Toulouse player on the rampage was the defending player in this case, and Joey Carbery was the player with the ball. That's what the interpretation is surely intended to stop, and it failed.

George and Riccioni were also the defending players and were upright going into the tackle.
To suggest that the Edinburgh players were deliberately seeking head contact at speed is quite a stretch.
The 2 yellows could easily have been reds.

I guess its inevitable that sides will adapt to take "advantage" of the Laws as you say AlanE2 but it would be a real shame if players were actively trying to get opposition players sent off by gaming the contact. It didn't really strike me that way from viewing this weekends games but maybe I was just not seeing it.

On Foul Play, Law 9.11 provides that players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackler.

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Quote:

OldMarovian
I guess its inevitable that sides will adapt to take "advantage" of the Laws as you say AlanE2 but it would be a real shame if players were actively trying to get opposition players sent off by gaming the contact. It didn't really strike me that way from viewing this weekends games but maybe I was just not seeing it.

We'll see .....

Extract from Guardian article -

One of the more endearing points of the RFU’s press release was to note that ball-carriers will be “encouraged” to evade tacklers without effecting any late or sudden changes in body height. Good luck with that. As a counter, Nick Easter, Chinnor’s director of rugby, suggested he will be coaching his ball-carriers to do precisely the opposite, thus milking penalty after penalty. Ball-carriers have always set the terms of the tackle, which is why focusing all the attention on the tackler is not only unjust but utterly futile.

Quote:

OldMarovian
I guess its inevitable that sides will adapt to take "advantage" of the Laws as you say AlanE2 but it would be a real shame if players were actively trying to get opposition players sent off by gaming the contact. It didn't really strike me that way from viewing this weekends games but maybe I was just not seeing it.

I agree it would be a shame, and it didn't strike me at the time either. However, looking at it back on replay, the attacking players definitely dipped their shoulders and looked to me that they changed the angle of their head to make contact. It is all very quick of course. At the least, I think this is something that referees should be allowed to take into account and, if necessary, card the attacking player; it's not all about the tackler. But I know that is not the position currently and the referee applied the current protocols correctly (as far as I could see).

I have a lot of sympathy with AlanE2's comments and can see heads being used as battering rams to deliberately get opponents yellow or red carded. So let me ask about some hypothetical head impact decisions. 1: a defender stands motionless and upright but the ball carrier runs into him and there is head contact. What is the correct ref's decision? 2: a maul is moving slowly forward and the ball carrier virtually head butts the defender who is impeding his progress. Again, correct decision? And 3 finally: I used to plan with a giant 2nd row who was notorious for inflicting pain and injury on his own team mates as on the opposition. He charges into a maul head first, impacts the head of a team mate and knocks him out. What should the ref do?

Interesting questions. My view althought they may not be technically correct as the law stands.

1. There are two options here, a player can stand motionless but bracing himself so as not to move backward, I think that can be a red card as you are fully aware and there is intent in not allowing the player to pass. Options two as in both cases I believe yesterday there is an attempt to wrap the player and fall backwards to the ground. Any force comes from the charging player. This brings no intent to halt the player and is very passive with the effect of bringing someone to ground. At most that appears to be yellow to me. Worth pointing out that based on the discussion above too, I don't think a charging player aims for a head contact, you could argue they are reckless, but they stay low to make it difficult to tackle.

2. Nothing to see there for me without any intent, not even a penalty.

3. Red card, doesn't matter who you impact a truly reckless charge into a maul is a red card.

Just my views of what makes sense to me.

On your kamikaze lock, I think he's within Law 9.20 (a): A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul. Or else law 9.11 which I quoted above.

The other two are less clear.

The situation must exist already where the ball carrier drives low for the try line where the defenders are crouched: what happens if he knocks himself out on a defender's knee?

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Quote:

RugbyDoc2
So let me ask about some hypothetical head impact decisions. 1: a defender stands motionless and upright but the ball carrier runs into him and there is head contact. What is the correct ref's decision?

I saw this exact situation in a university match many decades ago. Away team wing (a then current Scotland B, and soon to be full, international) chipped the ball around the home team full back ( a future England international) and anticipating he would follow the ball ran through the space which he occupied.

Except he didn't as the home team full back didn't move and stood his ground as the Scottish international clattered into him, losing several teeth in the process and being carried off to hospital where he spent several days.

Decision: play on. They were more unforgiving times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:23:17:39:59 by AlanE2.

Re-watching it now and feel there's definitely something in what you were saying. Comparing our carries to theirs in the first half theirs seem to have a significant dip immediately before contact whereas our players seem to go low earlier or stay upright to break through. Interesting.

41:38 first action of Skinner on the "clear" is an elbow to Jamie Georges head ...

Another thing about watching this game. No reflection on any of the players but boy we miss McFarland. Incredible how he could go from being brought into the team to being so important in less than two seasons. He makes lineouts easier for us and a nightmare for the opposition and gives us some stardust in the loose.

Lot of hot air here and elsewhere on the tackle law.
The problem is entirely due to the (relatively) modern practice of trying to smother the ball in the tackle. Attackers have always dropped the shoulder into a defender coming in high in order to protect the ball. There is a perfectly safe if old fashioned method of tackling head on or from the side, but of course that has consequences which defence coaches will not like. However I have no doubt that some clever clogs will find a way of defending effectively even when the tackle height is lowered.