Saracens
BATH PREVIEW. PLEASE PLACE ALL MATCH-RELATED COMMENTS HERE
By The Saracens
October 13 2022
Wow! Having been in South America for most of the last month, I’ve been catching up on the Men in Black. But I’m wondering if I’m having some jet-lagged induced dream? This team of mine, famous for the kick-chase, grinding the opposition down and very happy to play without the ball seems to have undergone an amazing transformation. Now I see them bestriding the premiership table with a perfect record of 20 from 20 including 21 tries – and average of 5.25 per game. These men have hands like the Harlem Globetrotters, feet like Michael Flatley, the speed of Usain Bolt, the defence of Horatio. What on earth has happened? Dream or not, I really don’t want to wake up.
This Saturday sees Bath enter the StoneX Arena. Poor Bath. Last season they were on the wrong end of a 111-20 aggregate in the 2 games against Sarries. This year they are propping up the table on 5 points from 4 games (no wins). The last thing they need is another mauling at the hands of a rampant Saracens. Bath have reinforced their squad with 4 refugees from Worcester: Flankers Ted Hill & Fergus Lee-Warner, Centre Ollie Lawrence and Russian loose head Valeriy Morozov have all made the move down the M5. Ollie Lawrence made his debut last weekend in Bath’s home defeat to Gloucester (although Bath put up a decent performance in the 2nd half, scoring 10 unanswered points to finish 17-21). Sarries have also dipped their toes in the Worcester fire-sale, bringing winger Tom Howe & lock Andrew Kitchener (younger brother of Graham) to North London.
Despite the huge gap in fortunes so far this season, Sarries will not be underestimating Bath. Bath have a lot of international talent and despite the team’s poor performances of late, Eddie Jones has dabbled with a number of Bath players in recent times: Dave Attwood, Joe Cokanasiga, Tom Dunn, Tom de Glanville, Charlie Ewels, Piers Francis, Jonathan Joseph, Ollie Lawrence, Ruaridh Mcconnochie, Josh McNally, Beno Obano, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill – not to mention the 2 ex-Sarries who probably should be chosen, Ben Spencer and Matt Gallagher. Along with Scots Internationals Cameron Redpath, Josh Bayliss and D’Arcy Rae, Irishman Quinn Roux and South African Louis Schreuder there is no shortage of experience in the Bath Squad (they also have an awful lot of hookers – maybe they could lend us one?) Bath are in the middle of a pretty bad injury crisis though with the likes of Spencer, Obano, Schreuder, Francis, Joseph, Jaco Coetzee, &Sam Underhill among those on the sidelines.
Can Sarries continue this fabulous run of form? The loss of Mako (suspended for 2 weeks if he does his penance), Jamie and Woolfie will be a challenge but the form of the rest of the squad, notably Theo, Ben Earl, Elliot Daly, Billy, Loz, Faz, Max and Nick Tompkins, seems to make up for the potential shortcomings up front. Ivan Van Zyl looks a different player for a few starts, Riccioni is back to health and fitness and Nick Isikwe isn’t far off. We’ve barely missed Maro. Now there’s a thing! No updates on his shoulder injury but hopefully he’ll be back soon.
Our referee is Luke Pearce so Faz will need to keep a tight rein on the team. Absolutely no backchat please. Mr Pearce is assisted by Hamish Smales and John Meredith with Clare Hodnett watching TV. Apparently only 1 team has begun the premiership season with 25 points out of 25, and that was…….SARACENS back in 2018/19. Sarries also have an excellent home record in the Premiership with the only defeat since Sept 2020 being by 1 point against Gloucester in January.
Bath’s message board are certainly not hopeful. Their match preview is entitled “Mission Impossible” (and is incidentally a very good read). In fact several supporters have “invested” on Sarries at 1:12 (on the grounds it’s a safer bet for their money than anything the Bank of England can offer just now). Sorry no politics on this site! Apparently the best odds you can now get on Sarries are 1:50 though.
The stars are aligned and everything is pointing to another 5 pointer for Sarries BUT stuff happens and no one will be counting their chickens. Another Mako incident, loss of concentration, underestimating the opposition and anything could happen. Personally I’m going back to my jet-lagged reverie. Please don’t wake me up any time soon!
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StumbleuponBATH PREVIEW. PLEASE PLACE ALL MATCH-RELATED COMMENTS HERE
Discussion started by TheSaracens.com , 13/10/2022 16:23
TheSaracens.com
13/10/2022 16:23
13/10/2022 16:23
Merged with "Bath" Thread
Please place all prematch, intermatch and post match comments here
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:26:17:22:02 by Darraghgirl.
Please place all prematch, intermatch and post match comments here
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:26:17:22:02 by Darraghgirl.
Bath seem to be improving slowly and they were a little unlucky not to get more out of the game against Gloucester who as we know are very effective albeit that their brand of rugby at the moment is extremely unattractive to my mind. Ollie Lawrence looked a good signing and if they get Ted Hill on this weekend then I don't think this is going to be a pushover by any means. Slightly mixed feelings as I really like Bath and want them to be successful so in a way I wish it wasn't us playing them this weekend.
Really? Back rowers generally not in short supply so I doubt there would be many prem clubs in the market for one at this stage of the season. What's the rumour?
Chiefs JimG.
They're a really nice bunch on the Bath board and they've had a tough time over the past few seasons. I feel JVG is the guy to steady the ship and turn things round and every time I've seen him quoted in print he makes sense and comes across well.
I think the Wuss additions and Lawrence in particular are great additions for them but like JimG I'd prefer their resurgence was after this weekend.
They're a really nice bunch on the Bath board and they've had a tough time over the past few seasons. I feel JVG is the guy to steady the ship and turn things round and every time I've seen him quoted in print he makes sense and comes across well.
I think the Wuss additions and Lawrence in particular are great additions for them but like JimG I'd prefer their resurgence was after this weekend.
If I were in the market for a back rower I would wait a few weeks and you might be able to get your pick of Barbaery, Willis(s) or Shields. Hey - just thought, maybe we can get Vinnie back.
Where's the salary cap headroom, Jim?
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
All that money we're not spending on Malins! 
Can't see we have any space other than injury this season?
Have been looking at all the contracts that end this season which is a frightening amount (and obviously the end of the 75% cap thing) and we're going to have a very different squad next season IMO. We seem to have been very hush-hush about which contracts we've extended so hopefully we've done Maros on the quiet and he will be our second Marquee to go with Farrell. If we haven't and he stays one player taking almost a fifth of our cap?
Can't see we have any space other than injury this season?
Have been looking at all the contracts that end this season which is a frightening amount (and obviously the end of the 75% cap thing) and we're going to have a very different squad next season IMO. We seem to have been very hush-hush about which contracts we've extended so hopefully we've done Maros on the quiet and he will be our second Marquee to go with Farrell. If we haven't and he stays one player taking almost a fifth of our cap?
Quote:AP
Where's the salary cap headroom, Jim?
I doubt there is any. I was just joking really but it does look as though there may well be quite a few ex Wasps players available in the not too distant future (which of course is no laughing matter).
Quote:JimGQuote:AP
Where's the salary cap headroom, Jim?
I doubt there is any. I was just joking really but it does look as though there may well be quite a few ex Wasps players available in the not too distant future (which of course is no laughing matter).
I thought that PRL had done some sort of deal to increase this seasons cap so these spare players can be included. Or was that my imagination
Watched Bath last week. They have some good players but seem to lack confidence / belief. If we get ahead early it might get ugly, but they are overdue some luck so not a game or opponent we should be taking lightly.
Team selection from both sides will be interesting. Will either side rest a few based on a perception of the expected result?
Team selection from both sides will be interesting. Will either side rest a few based on a perception of the expected result?
Quote:LutonS
Watched Bath last week. They have some good players but seem to lack confidence / belief
Lawrence certainly showed up a few of the "residents" last week! Their willingness to capitulate last season was utterly shocking, and if we come out blazing I wonder if a similar result from much the same players is on the cards
Quote:Sarriebone
Following on Twitter, sounds a bit scrappy so far
If that's a silent "s" you'd be right. Bath played really well and we were incapable of cutting off the ball to Lawrence or stopping him once he got the ball. Gallagher also had a very good game.
Great that we held on but were possibly an exceptional piece of Farrell defending/intercepting away from a loss.
Hopefully those that took knocks are ok. A few bright spots from Sarries; Pifeleti and Mawi in the loose, Maro really grew into the game too. The rest pretty grim tbh.
Hopefully that's one they had to get out of their system, we've seen that before in game that you might think would be decent wins. That said I hope they don't simply write it off as a bad day at the office though as the odd game and kicking strategy was what continuously put us in trouble and it was a bewildering choice to stick with it.
On the plus side 5 full 5 point results in the first five games hasn't been done for a while.
I thought Ollie Lawrence was outstanding for Bath today - probably the most influential player on the pitch. We were very scruffy at times & I don't think we could really have complained if Bath had nicked it. Miles Reid also a real nuisance in the loose. If they carry on like that, they won't be rock bottom for much longer. Lots to work on before a jaunt to Devon.
I think the only positive to be had was that our maul defence was very good, and maybe our defence from their close range attacks other than their last try.
We were not good today. Billy and Theo seemed to lack impact . Bath played out of their skins and probably should have won.We lacked cohesion and thought we were trying too hard when we could have closed the game out. In the past Brad would have slowed the game and held on to the ball rather than kicking it away. Oh well 5 points but credit to bath who should be able to build on this performance.
Agree with Mark McCall that not enough players were prepared to do the hard little things like secure the breakdown which meant we gave the ball away far too easily. Also some weak tackling by some of the team.
On the positive side I thought Kapeli did well at hooker and Eroni looked good before his early departure but all in all a lack of commitment from some meant that Bath were never put away. Owen’s interception near the end was my champagne moment as we looked like we were about to lose.
On the positive side I thought Kapeli did well at hooker and Eroni looked good before his early departure but all in all a lack of commitment from some meant that Bath were never put away. Owen’s interception near the end was my champagne moment as we looked like we were about to lose.
I thought Billy played reasonably and his work rate as ever was huge but we just failed to capitalise on his carries or use him as a decoy.
I think we've grown so used to McFarland being a superstar every game that maybe a merely good performance seems below par but I thought he was good.
It just felt like one of the performances where the team felt the win was there without doing the work for it. I thought we were beyond that now but maybe not? Frustrating but not playing at their best and still taking 5 points is a positive.
I think we've grown so used to McFarland being a superstar every game that maybe a merely good performance seems below par but I thought he was good.
It just felt like one of the performances where the team felt the win was there without doing the work for it. I thought we were beyond that now but maybe not? Frustrating but not playing at their best and still taking 5 points is a positive.
One thing of was that both kickers were 100% despite the very blustery conditions, including the bizarre dropped goal conversion!
Quote:Banzai1314
We were not good today. Billy and Theo seemed to lack impact . Bath played out of their skins and probably should have won.We lacked cohesion and thought we were trying too hard when we could have closed the game out. In the past Brad would have slowed the game and held on to the ball rather than kicking it away. Oh well 5 points but credit to bath who should be able to build on this performance.
Where was the defence? We need Nick Tompkins and Ben Earle to start next week.
You can take the man out of Yorkshire but you can't take Yorkshire out of the man.
Quote:Maroon Tyke
Where was the defence? We need Nick Tompkins and Ben Earle to start next week.
We have to get used to not having those players during the season unfortunately. If it was still needed by some yesterday was a demonstration, amongst other things, that Daly shouldn't play at 13. If we play him at FB or wing great. Let him join the line in attack and provide that wonderful attacking skill he's demonstrated so far this season. Yesterdays game was a reversion to kicking away good ball and being a turnstile in defence. He was far from the only issue ofc but this is something we should know by now IMO.
With the number of players available even before Wuss and Wasps struggles offering additional contracts for players with a long injury history or who are normally expensive and now at the end of their careers seems an odd call. Imagine what could be done with a few £100K worth of cap space right now. Not sure you had to be Nostradamus to see that?
A suggestion in rumours section that Koch has been having a look around Bath, Launchbury might be off to Quins and that the possibility of a Wasps/LI merge is being looked at. If the later happens and van Rensburg should become free he looks like an incredible option at 12 (not hugely expensive?) and exactly the type of player we could do with given our slightly 13 heavy collection of centres.
In more positive news there's a nice piece with Riccioni on the back page of TRP where he talks about how good it has been at Sarries, how they were great in keeping him involved during his long injury lay off and after his time out how he will be staying with the team rather than going away with Italy for the Internationals. Great news.
Remember this time last season? I think it was games against the likes of Irish and Gloucester (although my old brain might be deluded).
Our first 15 did fine but then the replacements would come on and we'd be really shaky. Those replacements were players like MacFarland, Mawi and Christie. Some games we wouldn't even risk them.
The difference now is that those players are genuine 1st teamers or even superstars and our strength in depth is fantastic -hence last year's player of the season on the bench yesterday. Big, big stride forward even though it could be said we were lucky to win against both Bath and Gloucester.
For sure we saw mistakes mainly, according to MacCall, in application and attitude. Always going to happen at certain points in the season. It does every year.
Other side of the coin though, as we saw for 60 minutes at Newcastle, is it gets a bit flat being superb every week, not least because we have a crowd (and I include myself here) who sit back in our seats at the beginning of games waiting to be entertained.
Being under par against a superbly organised and motivated Bath side with the real player of the match at 13 (and Kapeli you were very good in our hour of need) at least gave us another afternoon of supreme entertainment and got that Stonex atmosphere going at the end which is such an important part of the fun.
Now, if we could just get Alex Goode to stop kicking it down the middle of the pitch for the other side to run straight back at us at times of pressure when we really need to keep possession then we can all be happier.
Our first 15 did fine but then the replacements would come on and we'd be really shaky. Those replacements were players like MacFarland, Mawi and Christie. Some games we wouldn't even risk them.
The difference now is that those players are genuine 1st teamers or even superstars and our strength in depth is fantastic -hence last year's player of the season on the bench yesterday. Big, big stride forward even though it could be said we were lucky to win against both Bath and Gloucester.
For sure we saw mistakes mainly, according to MacCall, in application and attitude. Always going to happen at certain points in the season. It does every year.
Other side of the coin though, as we saw for 60 minutes at Newcastle, is it gets a bit flat being superb every week, not least because we have a crowd (and I include myself here) who sit back in our seats at the beginning of games waiting to be entertained.
Being under par against a superbly organised and motivated Bath side with the real player of the match at 13 (and Kapeli you were very good in our hour of need) at least gave us another afternoon of supreme entertainment and got that Stonex atmosphere going at the end which is such an important part of the fun.
Now, if we could just get Alex Goode to stop kicking it down the middle of the pitch for the other side to run straight back at us at times of pressure when we really need to keep possession then we can all be happier.
Quote:OldMarovian
If it was still needed by some yesterday was a demonstration, amongst other things, that Daly shouldn't play at 13.
I think we are watching a different player. I saw another brilliant performance from our player of the season so far, including some tackles on a par with this one Try saving tackle from Daly
Of course we have better defensive centres but once again he created crucial space for others with his breaks. To say he shouldn't play there is puzzling to me although I know from your previous analyses that you see things the rest of us don't. He should be playing FB because he is our best FB even though Alex Goode is better under the high ball. But I understand we must place our resources in positions for the best overall line up when players are injured.
He's shown he can even play hooker! So glad to have him
Sorry but he isn't our best FB. He lacks the defensive skills, always has.
I love that you show him being run over by VDF? and Kruis holding the ball up as an example of his defensive skills
Meh, I wrote a long post breaking down both negatives and positives but tbh what's the point. The coaches know what they want and obviously know their stuff.
I am prepared to eat a massive, nay humungous slice of humble pie re how good his attack has been whilst nominally positioned at FB this season. Yesterday was a reversion to his form of the end of last season to me with the significant issues that created. I'd be disappointed to see it repeated unless there were no other options.
As always having and sharing differing views is what makes discussion interesting or at least in theory!
I love that you show him being run over by VDF? and Kruis holding the ball up as an example of his defensive skills
Meh, I wrote a long post breaking down both negatives and positives but tbh what's the point. The coaches know what they want and obviously know their stuff.
I am prepared to eat a massive, nay humungous slice of humble pie re how good his attack has been whilst nominally positioned at FB this season. Yesterday was a reversion to his form of the end of last season to me with the significant issues that created. I'd be disappointed to see it repeated unless there were no other options.
As always having and sharing differing views is what makes discussion interesting or at least in theory!
May be worth remembering that Daly was a late switch to centre from wing when Nick Tompkins dropped out. I don't know how disruptive that may be.
Player of the match for me was Farrell who seemed to be everywhere in defence.Shame that his captaincy skills could not extend to countering the collective brain fart that everyone had for much of the match.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Player of the match for me was Farrell who seemed to be everywhere in defence.Shame that his captaincy skills could not extend to countering the collective brain fart that everyone had for much of the match.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Quote:OldMarovian
As always having and sharing differing views is what makes discussion interesting or at least in theory!
That's true
Anyone watching the Quins Tiggers game? Not the best advert for luring new fans. Watson seems to think that you need to tackle above the shoulders , forward passes leading to tries and Tiggers boring the hell out of the game. If this is the future I’ll stick to watching Sarries.
Even Eddie Jones is nodding off ! Don’t you find players over celebrating infuriating ( Montodger) as Dayglo calls him😂
Quote:Duncan96Quote:OldMarovian
If it was still needed by some yesterday was a demonstration, amongst other things, that Daly shouldn't play at 13.
I think we are watching a different player. I saw another brilliant performance from our player of the season so far, including some tackles on a par with this one Try saving tackle from Daly
Of course we have better defensive centres but once again he created crucial space for others with his breaks. To say he shouldn't play there is puzzling to me although I know from your previous analyses that you see things the rest of us don't. He should be playing FB because he is our best FB even though Alex Goode is better under the high ball. But I understand we must place our resources in positions for the best overall line up when players are injured.
He's shown he can even play hooker! So glad to have him
+1 I thought Daly was one of the better performers yesterday. To be fair I didn't think anybody shone, the front 5 were OK, the back row (until Earl came on) a bit below par. I was most impressed by Van Zyl and Farrell, least impressed by Lewington's tackling attempts (although he always looks dangerous going forward).
Quote:that's what he calls his penis. At the brothel...Banzai1314
Even Eddie Jones is nodding off ! Don’t you find players over celebrating infuriating ( Montodger) as Dayglo calls him😂
I have just had a look at the highlights and I think it shows quite clearly what I thought I saw at the time that a Bath player kicked the ball forward in the ruck just before their 3rd try. I thought you were no longer allowed to kick the ball in the ruck. Why didn’t the TMO see that?
Correct, it should’ve been a penalty to us. What is also not so good is that their first 2 tries were from our errors - although not taking anything away from their attack, they played well.
I’m sorry to those that don’t rate Daly, but he was everything that was good about us yesterday and has been all season. Goodie is a legend and one of my fave ever players, but on form Daly is our best FB at the moment. He hasn’t dropped a high ball all season, has some good pace, is good at coming into the line and there is nothing wrong with his defence at all! With Maxi going, Goodie likely to go at the end of the season, Daly is our first choice FB at moment imho - gets more space than on the wing and Tomo and Loz are our best centre paring.
One of those games yesterday we could have lost...but we didn’t. It’s the mark of a good side when you win and don’t play your best. Tougher test next week and I expect us to perform better on a hostile atmosphere.
I’m sorry to those that don’t rate Daly, but he was everything that was good about us yesterday and has been all season. Goodie is a legend and one of my fave ever players, but on form Daly is our best FB at the moment. He hasn’t dropped a high ball all season, has some good pace, is good at coming into the line and there is nothing wrong with his defence at all! With Maxi going, Goodie likely to go at the end of the season, Daly is our first choice FB at moment imho - gets more space than on the wing and Tomo and Loz are our best centre paring.
One of those games yesterday we could have lost...but we didn’t. It’s the mark of a good side when you win and don’t play your best. Tougher test next week and I expect us to perform better on a hostile atmosphere.
Quote:Banzai1314
Anyone watching the Quins Tiggers game? Not the best advert for luring new fans. Watson seems to think that you need to tackle above the shoulders , forward passes leading to tries and Tiggers boring the hell out of the game. If this is the future I’ll stick to watching Sarries.
I did watch it and don't agree with this assessment at all. I thought it was a pretty exciting game of rugby. Really strong forward display from Leicester which makes our destruction of them look all the more impressive.
Agree with a lot of what has been said on the Bath game. We lost the breakdown and that killed our attacking rhythm. Not much helped by Loz in particular who had a game to forget in the centres. Shame also that Goode didn't got the memo about not kicking the ball away. Bath looked a much improved side and they have made a fantastic signing in Ollie Lawrence. Also I know he scored but Lewington just looks a liability to me. I am not sure what the situation is with Segun and Harris but my heart sinks every time I see Lewington's name on the team sheet.
I'm glad I'm not alone about Daly. I also thought he was one of a small number of players who had a decent game on saturday.
No player is perfect and the criticism of Daly reminds me a bit of a football pundit who said: "Maradona shouldn't be on the pitch. He just doesn't track back and tackle". I didn't feel that was a balanced summary of Maradona's skills somehow.
No player is perfect and the criticism of Daly reminds me a bit of a football pundit who said: "Maradona shouldn't be on the pitch. He just doesn't track back and tackle". I didn't feel that was a balanced summary of Maradona's skills somehow.
Ultimately he's being selected for what he can do rather than what he can't and I'm sure that's the right way to view it. Whether it's the right approach when we play the toughest games of the season I hope we'll find out.
When someone can say Daly hasn't dropped a high ball all season and others can claim he had a decent game in defence on the weekend I'm literally being told to disbelieve my own eyes as it's there in the game tape.
If I had the skills I'd happily clip them up in a short video.
Whilst I am at it, Malins you're not at Bears yet, ground the ball properly! I'd have thought Maitlands comical fumble the other week might have been a warning but it seems the lesson hasn't been learned.
When someone can say Daly hasn't dropped a high ball all season and others can claim he had a decent game in defence on the weekend I'm literally being told to disbelieve my own eyes as it's there in the game tape.
If I had the skills I'd happily clip them up in a short video.
Whilst I am at it, Malins you're not at Bears yet, ground the ball properly! I'd have thought Maitlands comical fumble the other week might have been a warning but it seems the lesson hasn't been learned.
As others have said Daly has been truly outstanding this season so far, particularly in attack. I can only go on what my eyes tell me from the stands and I certainly don't just follow him around the pitch so it is possible that errors were made which I didn't notice but it is certainly true that most of our excellent attacking play has centred around him. The only real schoolboy defending that I could see on Saturday came from Lozowski and Lewington.
Quote:JimG
I am not sure what the situation is with Segun and Harris
I also am itching to see Roti on the pitch. He's already such an exciting player. Ben H also a really exciting prospect. I wonder if the radio silence is deliberate to prevent other teams having an advantage? I'd really appreciate an update.
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