Saracens
AND SO IT BEGINS.....
By The Saracens
September 15 2022
It’s almost here – our first game of the season! (Although it does feel a bit like not being invited to the party after we had a bye last week and had to stand by and watch the other 12 teams kick off the season). Last weekend was of course unprecedented following the death of Her Majesty – rugby, rightly I believe, decided to go ahead with the scheduled games (albeit a couple of them on different days) and rugby supporters had the chance to pay their respects in whatever way they wished. Again it feels a bit like we were excluded. But heyho, that was the unexpected hand we were dealt when apparently we requested an early bye round.
And so to the game: away to Quins is probably not what we would have chosen for our first game of the new campaign but to The Stoop we must go. Last weekend Quins edged out an exciting game at Kingston Park with 2 late tries from Alex Dombrandt and Joe Marchant to take maximum points and sit 2nd to Irish on points difference. They will be looking to impress their home support with another win. Sarries are likely to be undercooked, having played just the one warm up against Ampthill (the Premiership Cup game against Saints was clearly going to be used for the same purpose before its late cancellation on Thursday) which means a number of our senior players haven’t set foot on a rugby pitch in anger since the Premiership Final.
Both sides contributed heavily to England’s summer tour to Australia and at least in theory, most of those players should still be putting their feet up (Mako, Jamie, Billy, Faz and Maro for Sarries – plus the injured Nick Isiekwe; Jack Walker, Danny Care, Marcus Smith, Joe Marchant for Quins.) Marchant came on as a sub last weekend (having only featured in the first of the tour games: - Jack Walker didn’t appear at all). Care & Smith were used rather more heavily. Of the Sarries’ boys, only Mako was relatively spared – coming off the bench for all 3 games. Ellis Genge asked for the rest period to be waived so he could play for his new club Bristol Bears last weekend as did Jack Nowell and it appears Marchant and others have done the same. It is rumoured that Owen and Mako could feature though given both players missed significant chunks of last season due to injury. That would certainly enhance our chances as Quins apparently don’t intend to feature Smith or Care. I assume Aled Davies still has a 1 match suspension to serve
Last season, Sarries came from behind thanks to Loz’s boot and a Wray try to win at The Stoop then rubbed it in with a home victory at StoneX. A Ben Earl Hat trick then gave Sarries victory over Quins in the Premiership semi-final (despite 3 yellow cards). So Quins definitely have something to prove.
As to team selection – well who knows what is going on in Mark McCall’s mind? Having watched the Ampthill game, I’d want Theo McFarland, Andy Christie, Elliot Daly & Nick Tompkins in my starting 15 along with Hugh Tizard and Ben Earl. I thought Ethan Lewis looked marginally more solid than Pifileti unless MM gambles on the fitness of Woolfie. Mawi is the likely loosehead if Mako doesn’t start but will we see the return of Riccioni at tighthead? Hunter-Hill will probably continue at lock alongside Tizard with a back 3 of McFarland, Earl and Christie (or Wray). The prospect of Faz in the starting 15 is encouraging especially as the relatively inexperienced Van Zyl is likely to continue at 9. Tompkins and Loz in the centres, Malins and Daly on the wings, Goodey at 15 but I’d love to see Ben Harris get a chance, maybe from the bench.
We’ll do well to maintain our winning streak over Quins. The possible presence of Faz and Mako does increase our chances though. Even so, a losing BP would probably be a good result given the inevitable rustiness in the side but it’s a funny game and you never know what will happen! One thing is for sure – we have to cut out the back chat. Against Ampthill it wasn’t disastrous, against Quins it could well be.
The referee is Tom Foley assisted by Anthony Woodthorpe and Jamie Leahy. TMO is Stuart Terheege and citing officer is Danae Zamboulis
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StumbleuponAND SO IT BEGINS.....PLEASE POST ALL MATCHDAY COMMENTS HERE
Discussion started by TheSaracens.com , 15/09/2022 12:30
TheSaracens.com
15/09/2022 12:30
15/09/2022 12:30
Please post all your pre, during and post match comments on this thread
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:10:15:49:17 by Darraghgirl.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:10:15:49:17 by Darraghgirl.
Very hard to predict how we’ll go. We nearly got blown away in the semi after an extra week off so Saturday could be a real challenge. But this is a game that often doesn’t go with form or expectations!
Just seen the team against Quins - all the big boys are playing !!!!!!! Sarries definitely wanting to win this !
Saracens Men team to play Harlequins:
1 Eroni Mawi
2 Tom Woolstencroft
3 Christian Judge
4 Maro Itoje
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Theo McFarland
7 Ben Earl
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Alex Lewington
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Max Malins
15 Elliot Daly
Replacements:
16 Jamie George
17 Mako Vunipola
18 Alec Clarey
19 Andy Christie
20 Jackson Wray
21 Aled Davies
22 Manu Vunipola
23 Duncan Taylor
1 Eroni Mawi
2 Tom Woolstencroft
3 Christian Judge
4 Maro Itoje
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Theo McFarland
7 Ben Earl
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Alex Lewington
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Max Malins
15 Elliot Daly
Replacements:
16 Jamie George
17 Mako Vunipola
18 Alec Clarey
19 Andy Christie
20 Jackson Wray
21 Aled Davies
22 Manu Vunipola
23 Duncan Taylor
Sir for this one:
Harlequins v Saracens
Referee: Tom Foley
ARs: Anthony Woodthorpe & Jamie Leahy
TMO: Stuart Terheege
Harlequins v Saracens
Referee: Tom Foley
ARs: Anthony Woodthorpe & Jamie Leahy
TMO: Stuart Terheege
Harlequins Starting XV
1. Joe Marler
2. George Head
3. Will Collier
4. George Hammond
5. Irne Herbst
6. Jack Kenningam
7. Will Evans
8. Alex Dombrandt – Captain
9. Lewis Gjaltema
10. Tommy Allan
11. Cadan Murley
12. Lennox Anyanwu
13. Luke Northmore
14. Joe Marchant
15. Tyrone Green
Impact Players
16. Jack Walker
17. Simon Kerrod
18. Wilco Louw
19. Dino Lamb
20. Archie White
21. Jack Stafford
22. Will Edwards
23. Hayden Hyde
1. Joe Marler
2. George Head
3. Will Collier
4. George Hammond
5. Irne Herbst
6. Jack Kenningam
7. Will Evans
8. Alex Dombrandt – Captain
9. Lewis Gjaltema
10. Tommy Allan
11. Cadan Murley
12. Lennox Anyanwu
13. Luke Northmore
14. Joe Marchant
15. Tyrone Green
Impact Players
16. Jack Walker
17. Simon Kerrod
18. Wilco Louw
19. Dino Lamb
20. Archie White
21. Jack Stafford
22. Will Edwards
23. Hayden Hyde
Extract from DT -
Harlequins have been left confused and frustrated ahead of this weekend’s London derby after they were barred from picking Marcus Smith, even though Saracens will welcome back five England stars.
Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje and Billy Vunipola all start for Mark McCall’s side with Mako Vunipola and Jamie George named among the replacements. Each of these men toured Australia in July and featured in a hard-fought Test series alongside Smith.
However, the 23-year-old fly-half has not been granted special dispensation to appear in what promises to be a tantalising Premiership fixture on Saturday at the Twickenham Stoop, risking further debate over the integrity of rest protocols for elite players.
Harlequins hinted at their displeasure in an official press release that announced their line-up, stating: “Unfortunately for the club, fly-half Marcus Smith was not given clearance to play this week and will continue his mandated rest period following England’s summer internationals.”
According to guidelines published four years ago, those to have toured with England over the summer are entitled to a 10-week off-season. For a player to return to matches sooner, they have to receive sign-off from the Professional Game Board (PG
and Eddie Jones, the England head coach.
Harlequins have been left confused and frustrated ahead of this weekend’s London derby after they were barred from picking Marcus Smith, even though Saracens will welcome back five England stars.
Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje and Billy Vunipola all start for Mark McCall’s side with Mako Vunipola and Jamie George named among the replacements. Each of these men toured Australia in July and featured in a hard-fought Test series alongside Smith.
However, the 23-year-old fly-half has not been granted special dispensation to appear in what promises to be a tantalising Premiership fixture on Saturday at the Twickenham Stoop, risking further debate over the integrity of rest protocols for elite players.
Harlequins hinted at their displeasure in an official press release that announced their line-up, stating: “Unfortunately for the club, fly-half Marcus Smith was not given clearance to play this week and will continue his mandated rest period following England’s summer internationals.”
According to guidelines published four years ago, those to have toured with England over the summer are entitled to a 10-week off-season. For a player to return to matches sooner, they have to receive sign-off from the Professional Game Board (PG
and Eddie Jones, the England head coach.
This seems the first season this has been a real issue (maybe a sign of the Clubs increasing public displeasure at missing their "star players" for important parts of the Club season?)
I feel for Quins but wish the dimmer members of their board and their resident Wasps half-wit would engage their braincell and take note that this is a decision by Jones and the Professional Game Board (so RFU, RPA and Premiership representation) rather than a plot by Sarries *sigh*
Goode and CH-H taken knocks? Other than that looks a good side. Quins side very good too with the front row and bench front row looking very strong. Kenningham and Evans both starting means we'll need to be very sharp at the breakdown. No Esterhuizen is a big miss for them as obviously is no Smith although Allan is a quality player.
Hard to call given we don't know how rusty we'll be but what a cracking fixture to start our proper season off. Safe journeys to all travellers and hope we get a result.
I feel for Quins but wish the dimmer members of their board and their resident Wasps half-wit would engage their braincell and take note that this is a decision by Jones and the Professional Game Board (so RFU, RPA and Premiership representation) rather than a plot by Sarries *sigh*
Goode and CH-H taken knocks? Other than that looks a good side. Quins side very good too with the front row and bench front row looking very strong. Kenningham and Evans both starting means we'll need to be very sharp at the breakdown. No Esterhuizen is a big miss for them as obviously is no Smith although Allan is a quality player.
Hard to call given we don't know how rusty we'll be but what a cracking fixture to start our proper season off. Safe journeys to all travellers and hope we get a result.
A couple of good pieces in the Ealing Times:
Tabai Matson "this isn't about revenge"
Random Quins player "this is about revenge"
... and one about Earl in the DT where McCall says he's had a "phenomenal" pre-season. That bodes well given how good he was last.
[www.telegraph.co.uk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:16:14:09:12 by OldMarovian.
Tabai Matson "this isn't about revenge"
Random Quins player "this is about revenge"
... and one about Earl in the DT where McCall says he's had a "phenomenal" pre-season. That bodes well given how good he was last.
[www.telegraph.co.uk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:16:14:09:12 by OldMarovian.
Quote:Darraghgirl
threads merged to keep it neat and tidy
i was just about to go and comment to just see it disappear with a blink of an eye!!! finally getting excited after last weeks cancelation and
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Is Louis Lynagh out long term? Quality player and although they've got a lot of depth in their back three I'm happy not to see him in their 23!
Not sure we could’ve had a worse start. Lack of preseason really showing.
That definitely got the heart pumping! Did very well to come back from 17-0 down then 24-12. Probably should’ve put a weakened Quins side to bed in the second half but some (understandably) sloppy play kept Quins in the match.
I was worried at 20 minutes - but the boys showed great grit and determination; and some really excellent work with ball in hand
That was quite entertaining with some significant errors but also some great passages of play. I was surprised by how adventurous Sarries were, as the commentators said ‘we tried to out quin Quins’. I think we deservedly won as we edged the forward encounters and 5 points from the game is a handsome return. Billy, Theo and Maro were all my joint MoTM.
Looking forward to next Saturday and obviously hope the last second knock that Maro took isn’t too serious.
Looking forward to next Saturday and obviously hope the last second knock that Maro took isn’t too serious.
Wow what a game!!! I thought we looked a bit sluggish to Start with and eventually got into the game. What a find Theo is!!! COYS
I do hope that none of our fans chanted, at the final whistle, "Can we play you every week!", that would be terribly, terribly 'Blue Collar' 😂
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
In over 50 years supporting Sarries I’m struggling to remember a slower of thought starting 9 than Van Z. Is he genuinely of premiership standard? The way he was robbed of the ball by Dombrandt for their early try was embarrassing…
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Good win for you guys but surely there has to be some consistency with regard to rest periods allocated to England players who had been on the summer tour. Either a mandatory ten week break for all tourists - no exceptions or favours, or a schedule which allows all players to be available for Round One of the regular season. Would you have played your big five if you had been at home to Worcester or Newcastle…………..?
Quote:Aberavon Wizard
Good win for you guys but surely there has to be some consistency with regard to rest periods allocated to England players who had been on the summer tour. Either a mandatory ten week break for all tourists - no exceptions or favours, or a schedule which allows all players to be available for Round One of the regular season. Would you have played your big five if you had been at home to Worcester or Newcastle…………..?
I can't see what is wrong with taking into account the reduced playing burden of individuals during the previous season. What is lacking is clarity regarding the decisions made by the PGB.
However, I find it somewhat farfetched any hypothesis that Quin's are less well placed than Sarries to pull strings 😂
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Quote:Aberavon Wizard
Good win for you guys but surely there has to be some consistency with regard to rest periods allocated to England players who had been on the summer tour. Either a mandatory ten week break for all tourists - no exceptions or favours, or a schedule which allows all players to be available for Round One of the regular season. Would you have played your big five if you had been at home to Worcester or Newcastle…………..?
Or we can be adults and take everything on a case by case basis. Farrell missed loads of last season for example and as McCall said after Billy hates training to the extent that he’ll play matches without the extra workload. He’s also missed a large amount of his career to injury. I find it weirder that Smith couldn’t get special dispensation like Genge did to play a local derby, that is a more apt comparison considering they both played pretty much every match last season and on tour. Also considering the different collisions suffered by a Genge compared to Smith.
If we had played Worcester at home then we may have rested a few but that is standard squad rotation. It was important to get a win on the board after a bye week in the first round and Quins away is a lot tougher then Wuss/Falcons at home.
In fairness Allen was no mean substitute for Smith but it is ridiculous that Billy could play.
Scrum was creaky throughout and breakdown not great either. Thought Daly had an excellent game in the backs. Green excellent for them except his nightmare offload attempt which cost a try.
Scrum was creaky throughout and breakdown not great either. Thought Daly had an excellent game in the backs. Green excellent for them except his nightmare offload attempt which cost a try.
I really don’t think it is. Smith has played non-stop for 2/3 years now. Billy played a lot last season but has missed huge chunks of his career to injury and along with the other Sarries lads only played 10 championship matches when Smith played a full prem season including playoffs then England duty. He’s also come off his first ever full tour away with England. Lastly, as Smally says, the way they get the best out of Billy is to let him get fit by playing matches not training, therefore they manage his workload accordingly.
Given we've set the standard for "rotating" for many seasons, often giving youngsters a run out and resting the big names when other clubs arguably wouldn't have, surely it's a distinct possibility that our management of players' time on the field is a factor in allowing so many of our internationals to play yesterday. It doesn't help that nobody appears to know the details of the 10 week rest period rule, but if PRL (hardly our best friends) are in the decision loop then I doubt we've been granted any special favours.
Isn't the problem, once again, one of transparency? I read in the Observer that Billy played more games for club and Country than Smith last year. If I were a Quins supporter I'd be hacked off. The least they deserve is an explanation.
What a game. Excellent from Sarries, genuinely thrilling to see the next stage of our development.
In a game of many impressive moments the belief to carry on with the style we were playing when it wasn't sticking in the first twenty was great to see. Too many excellent performances to mention but credit to Daly for a really top class game. Billy unreal too.
Hopefully Maro and Davies are both ok. Lots to work on and playing like this there will be inevitable teething issues but it's wonderful to watch.
In a game of many impressive moments the belief to carry on with the style we were playing when it wasn't sticking in the first twenty was great to see. Too many excellent performances to mention but credit to Daly for a really top class game. Billy unreal too.
Hopefully Maro and Davies are both ok. Lots to work on and playing like this there will be inevitable teething issues but it's wonderful to watch.
We didn’t look like catching Murley after we’d lost it and we certainly won’t catch Rees-Zammit if we do on Saturday
Quote:The Bard
We didn’t look like catching Murley after we’d lost it and we certainly won’t catch Rees-Zammit if we do on Saturday
One of the most attacking sides in the League created precisely nothing in attack other than on turn-over ball against us. Their game was built on our errors which will (hopefully!) decrease as players become more familiar with the style and each other.
LRZ is massively over-hyped but devastating if given time and a little space (If Goode is playing maybe don't kick the ball to him in masses of space again?!)
Glaws will be fascinating as potentially without our EQP Internationals we'll have a big challenge up against their excellent, technically very sound pack. I can't wait.
I was delighted after the game when the Blazered Quins season ticket holder behind me refused to shake my hand. I do love it when a proper rugby club doesn't live up to their expectations of other clubs
don't forget, that it was our first game of the season and we were trying out almost a completely new way of playing the game.
pretty sure the management team will tell them not to keep flogging the offload game in our own 22. Once or twice is fine if an overlap is on. But if not, then take the contact and kick to touch.
Also we were pretty wasteful with dropped ball in their 22. We could easily on another day have scored 3 or more tries.
Personally I don't think the wonderkid would have made any difference. Quins best player last season was their South African 12. Its him they missed on Saturday
pretty sure the management team will tell them not to keep flogging the offload game in our own 22. Once or twice is fine if an overlap is on. But if not, then take the contact and kick to touch.
Also we were pretty wasteful with dropped ball in their 22. We could easily on another day have scored 3 or more tries.
Personally I don't think the wonderkid would have made any difference. Quins best player last season was their South African 12. Its him they missed on Saturday
Quote:JO'G
don't forget, that it was our first game of the season and we were trying out almost a completely new way of playing the game.
pretty sure the management team will tell them not to keep flogging the offload game in our own 22. Once or twice is fine if an overlap is on. But if not, then take the contact and kick to touch.
Also we were pretty wasteful with dropped ball in their 22. We could easily on another day have scored 3 or more tries.
Personally I don't think the wonderkid would have made any difference. Quins best player last season was their South African 12. Its him they missed on Saturday
lol Que Charlie Morgan finding himself so far up saracens with this piece that he may have already past the small intestine...
full on victorian hystera patent...
lets not get too carried away i hope.
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
There's a similar piece in the Times. I thought we simply had various ways we can play which we try to adopt and adapt when appropriate - which we did not do well last season, particularly in the final.
I think it's what the England cricket teams are trying to do but they are further off getting it right!
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
I think it's what the England cricket teams are trying to do but they are further off getting it right!
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
to be honest I thought that out play on Saturday was better tactically than anything we have done for 10 years.
The offloading and changing of pace and direction was excellent. Quins expected the box kick, so we played round the sides of each ruck into the spaces behind. Eventually Quins pulled players from the backfield to counter this and we then reverted to a box-kick that Lewington forced the defenders to screw up.
Its what we have been waiting for for ages - play different styles as the game dictates. Makes defending really difficult and ones you have the upper hand you can switch around to reach to defensive changes. What was frustrating last season was that we kept kicking when it wasn't working, because it was the pre-agreed plan.
If we marry our offloading to the defence and the box-kicking game we know we have, it could be a game changer. We do need to not get carried away because we gave away 2 tries on Saturday playing it when we should not - and there was also a third. Although all the rest of our opponents won't have Dombrant playing for them
The offloading and changing of pace and direction was excellent. Quins expected the box kick, so we played round the sides of each ruck into the spaces behind. Eventually Quins pulled players from the backfield to counter this and we then reverted to a box-kick that Lewington forced the defenders to screw up.
Its what we have been waiting for for ages - play different styles as the game dictates. Makes defending really difficult and ones you have the upper hand you can switch around to reach to defensive changes. What was frustrating last season was that we kept kicking when it wasn't working, because it was the pre-agreed plan.
If we marry our offloading to the defence and the box-kicking game we know we have, it could be a game changer. We do need to not get carried away because we gave away 2 tries on Saturday playing it when we should not - and there was also a third. Although all the rest of our opponents won't have Dombrant playing for them
That's an odd comment ninjafez. I thought it was a good piece and very balanced not at all fawning like some articles can be.
Having watched it again (it's definitely worth it!) I still think the most impressive thing is the composure at 17-0 down and that the team stuck to the plan. I also liked how quick pretty much all the team were to give an encouraging pat to a player who had messed up.
I can't remember who it was but a coach fairly recently, maybe Lam? talked about skill errors being excusable but effort errors not being. It doesn't quite make sense as a sentence but I know what he means and I think that's what we're seeing. A team being encouraged to challenge themselves knowing there will be bumps on the way but sticking with it even so.
As JO'G says the most interesting thing will be how this new style mixes and matches depending on opposition. Also agree that Esterhuizen was the player they missed most although he was probably just happy to avoid Tompkins running over him
Having watched it again (it's definitely worth it!) I still think the most impressive thing is the composure at 17-0 down and that the team stuck to the plan. I also liked how quick pretty much all the team were to give an encouraging pat to a player who had messed up.
I can't remember who it was but a coach fairly recently, maybe Lam? talked about skill errors being excusable but effort errors not being. It doesn't quite make sense as a sentence but I know what he means and I think that's what we're seeing. A team being encouraged to challenge themselves knowing there will be bumps on the way but sticking with it even so.
As JO'G says the most interesting thing will be how this new style mixes and matches depending on opposition. Also agree that Esterhuizen was the player they missed most although he was probably just happy to avoid Tompkins running over him
Thanks, TPR's HM. That's even longer than the Times piece and I'd say neutral in tone.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Quote:OldMarovian
That's an odd comment ninjafez. I thought it was a good piece and very balanced not at all fawning like some articles can be.
Having watched it again (it's definitely worth it!) I still think the most impressive thing is the composure at 17-0 down and that the team stuck to the plan. I also liked how quick pretty much all the team were to give an encouraging pat to a player who had messed up.
I can't remember who it was but a coach fairly recently, maybe Lam? talked about skill errors being excusable but effort errors not being. It doesn't quite make sense as a sentence but I know what he means and I think that's what we're seeing. A team being encouraged to challenge themselves knowing there will be bumps on the way but sticking with it even so.
As JO'G says the most interesting thing will be how this new style mixes and matches depending on opposition. Also agree that Esterhuizen was the player they missed most although he was probably just happy to avoid Tompkins running over him
well perhaps, i would have been happier if maybe this article had come out after a few more games of this style rahter than a massive declaration. as said not only were quins missing some experience, and yes they were living off some of our mistakes... some of the tries that we scored were not the best defending and i think we took advantage of the newbie replacing Esterhuizen. dont get me wrong i would love to see this attack continue where senesible but lets see a few more first....
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
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