Saracens
TOULON v SARACENS: Please post match-related comments here
By The Saracens
May 12 2022
CLASH OF THE TITANS Saracens and Toulon are 2 of the (3) European Titans of modern times. Between 2013 and 2019 they won 6 of the 7 Champions Cup finals (3 each) yet for different reasons both have had a difficult couple of years which is why this Clash of the Titans is taking place in the Challenge Cup and not the Champions Cup. Sarries and Toulon have met twice in recent times. The first was the European Final in Cardiff in 2014 where Jonny Wilkinson led his brilliant team to victory over a Saracens’ team still adjusting to rugby at the highest level; Toulon teaching Sarries what this European rugby stuff was all about. Who would have guessed on that grim day in Cardiff that 2 years later it would be Saracens who inherited Toulon’s title of European giants.
The teams met again in 2016 in the South of France. Fittingly it was en route to Sarries’ first European title, beating Racing 92 in Lyon. By now Sarries had worked out this European game, learned their lessons and more to the point believed in their right to be there. It was a fabulous day at the Stade Felix Mayol and ended in a famous victory for (English) Men in Black. Toulon’s first ever home defeat in Europe. We didn’t know it then but with that defeat, Toulon had effectively passed on their “invincibility cloak” to the upstarts from north London.
Since then Sarries have proved their European pedigree with 2 more titles, until recent events off the field interrupted their progress somewhat. Toulon have also struggled in recent times. An 8th place finish in the top 14 last season condemned these European Giants to Challenge Cup rugby this year and given their current Top 14 standing, probably their best hope of Champions Cup next year is to win the Challenge Cup.
There is a second Clash of the Titans to be savoured: the Battle of the Locks, Maro itoje up against Eben Etzebeth. Again it feels like passing on the baton - Eben in the twilight of his career, Maro basking in the sunny uplands. The outcome of this private battle may decide the outcome of the match. The lack of British interest in the main competition means there will be more focus on the exploits of Sarries and indeed Wasps, who take on Lyon in the early kick off. It could yet be an all English final.
While not the star-studded outfit of yore, Toulon do boast some big names including South African World Cup winners Eben Etzebeth and Cheslin Kolbe. Unfortunately for Toulon (&rugby as a whole) Kolbe fractured his thumb at the end of April and is likely to miss most if not all of the rest of the season. Toulon also boast French internationals Charles Ollivon (captain of Toulon & France), Fly halves Anthony Belleau and Louis Carbonnel, Jean Baptist Gros, Anthony Etrillard, Baptiste Serin & Raphael Lakafia along with Argentinian Facundo Isa, the much travelled Kieran Brookes and plastic Scot Cornell du Preez. That’s just to name a few! Toulon head coach Franck Azema has called this “the dream tie”. Of Sarries he said “ they’re used to the Champions Cup. They know what’s required so we have to recover well for this battle”. Toulon scrum half Franck Serin said “it’s super positive to play this type of match when you think we were so far from this level a few months ago. It’s going to be very hard but that’s the Challenge Cup and it’s our goal because we want to go to Marseilles”.
Mark McCall also praised his opposite number. “Franck’s improved them. You look at Toulon before Franck and look at them since Franck, and they’re a better team.” He also praised his team, especially Maro itoje: “They have been superb for the club especially bearing in mind we were in the Championship and the club needed a fresh start. Maro was near his best last week. He was energetic, looked good physically and we’ll need him at that level on Saturday”.
Sarries showed their intent to win this competition putting out a very strong team against Gloucester last week and I have no doubt MMc will do the same thing on Saturday. I’m sure the squad will enjoy a couple of days in the South of France (who wouldn’t – I just did!) and will be well up for this one. Once again selection problems of the right kind for MMc, choosing from strength. Mako may even be available (although Mawi is playing so well he might not get in the side). The rest of the front row selects itself. Toulon have a mighty front 5 so the Saracens’ big guys will need to be on top form. The riches available in the 2nd and back rows are tantalising. Who to start alongside Maro? Swinson again or maybe Isiekwe ? I would then probably go with Theo, Earl and Billy behind. Not sure what ‘s the problem with our super wingers Malins and Maitland but again we have strength in depth if they don’t make it. Who plays alongside Tompkins in the centres? I’d like to see Loz but Daly has been doing great things there and would be hard to drop. That one may depend on the fitness of our M & Ms! Otherwise Faz and Davies have to continue their successful partnership and Goodey, fullback supremo, makes up the 15.
Irish ran Toulon very close in the last round so if Sarries continue where they left of at kingsholm, they should have enough to reach the final but when it comes to the French, you never know who will turn up. Anyway it should be a great weekend for the travelling fans. Toulon is a great place to spend a weekend. I’m really disappointed not to be going but having just returned from Montpelier (would you believe I’m writing this on an EasyJet flight somewhere over Paris) and then off again on Monday, someone has to do the washing.
In their wisdom, ECPR have handed the whistle to Andrew Brace assisted by Craig Evans & Chris Busby with Joy Neville in the box. Mr Brace is not very popular in France after he refereed the contentious game between England and Ireland in 2021. Let’s hope Owen uses his charm to good effect and the game is decided by the players on the pitch not the referee. Here’s hoping this European journey goes all the way to Marseilles.
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Stumbleupon12/05/2022 17:07
Please post all pre-match, matchday and post match comments on this thread
thanks
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:05:22:18:44:04 by Darraghgirl.
Great that Mako is back, Mawi has been greatly improved but Mako is the best in the world when on form, a hill I’m happy to die on. With Maitland out, I could see a back 3 of Daly, Malins and Goode. Not the fastest but some serious footballing talent. Can’t complain about Loz at 13 but Daly has been brilliant in attack from 13 the last few weeks, probably our most creative player. This is knockout rugby though and Loz is quality in defence and pretty handy going forward too.
Maro v Eben is always a great battle, hopefully our boy comes out on top this time round. I’d be happy with either Isiewke or Swinno starting but I could see Nick/Theo on the bench as they provide more cover.
I’m really looking forward to this, it feels like a proper European tie, even if it is kicking off at 8.
Would be a risk putting Mako straight back in but knowing how Mark goes for experience in big games I reckon he will.
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Vincent Koch
4 Maro Itoje
5 Nick Isiekwe
6 Theo McFarland
7 Ben Earl
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Aled Davies
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Rotimi Según
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Elliot Daly
14 Max Malins
15 Alex Goode
Replacements:
16 Kapeli Pifeleti
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Sam Wainwright
19 Callum Hunter-Hill
20 Andy Christie
21 Ivan van Zyl
22 Duncan Taylor
23 Alex Lozowski
Looking forward to tomorrow’s game which I can watch with a beer in hand after playing cricket in sun.
It’s going to be an extremely tough match, Toulon have get some brilliant players but these are the matches we want to be in!
15 A. Luc
14 J. Wainiqolo
13 M. Smaili
12 D. Paia'aua
11 G. Villière
10 L. Carbonel
9 B. Serin
1 J. Gros
2 C. Tolofua
3 B. Gigashvili
4 E. Etzebeth
5 B. Alainu'uese
6 C. Du Preez
7 C. Ollivon
8 S. Parisse
Replacements
16 A. Etrillard
17 B. Devaux
18 E. Setiano
19 R. Lakafia
20 F. Isa
21 S. Rebbadj
22 A. Belleau
I get what the coaches are trying to do with Daly on attack but this feels like the sort of game to play Lozo at 13 and perhaps bring Daly off the wing for those set plays where his passing game has been such a plus. Hopefully we see the best of him.
Tbh I'm not that up to how Toulon are doing right now. Along with familiar faces 9and ex-Sarries players) there's quite a few I'm not familiar with. If they play like last week I'd be very confident but I expect they'll raise their game for this meeting. It should be a belter.
Thanks for the link TPRs. I love the way google translate makes some of the French comments sound
Re Billy at Wasps, credit to Google translate:
"Two seasons (2011 to 2013)which allowed him to hatch at the highest level"
Re good news for Sarries, credit to Google translate:
"In 2013 , he therefore joined his brother, who had already been at the club for two seasons, never to leave him again. Nothing has shook Vunipola's love for Red & Black colors . Even the administrative relegation has not changed anything, the third line has remained faithful and has even just extended his adventure with the Sarries"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:05:13:18:09:22 by OldMarovian.
Not sure who Franck Serin is, however. Has Baptiste's mother been seduced by his coach, and the male changed his name? Who knows? Les français have a much less prissy approach to life! 😉
A fortnight on the côté D'Azur would have been brilliant, if only it could have been foreseen!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Front row are 1 (LH) 2 (Hooker) and 3 (TH)
Why are the bench 16 (Hooker) 17 (LH) 18 (TH)?
Go
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:05:14:20:56:17 by TommyKentish.
You seriously wonder why we didnt play better in the earlier rounds so we would have home advantage at this point. That crowd was worth a try start for Toulon. Must have been a great match to be at apart from the result
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:05:15:09:55:36 by maynas.
Shame but let's focus on the Prem now.
My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.
I'm begging her for one more try!
On today's semi final performances I would back Toulon to take the trophy now.
Being able to concentrate on the Premiership now is no bad thing either.
If we wanted to be able to influence the ref ourselves we had to perform *much* better in the pool stage and get a good seeding so we could play at home!
Huge credit to Serin too as Segun was in under the posts if Serin doesn't make the intercept. Real quality work and a likely 7 points then would have put us right back in the game.
I hope Malins is ok.
Quote:GazzaFez
what is disappointing was our game management especially in the last ten minutes chasing a nine point deficit. Not taking the three point sitter in front of the posts was criminal at that stage; the fact we squandered three more penalties with fruitless kicks to the corner after that is irrelevant. We should have taken the points on offer
Agree 100%. I didn't see a lack of commitment and given the chances we just couldn't quite finish the game wasn't beyond our reach but why on earth only chasing 9 are we turning down kicks at goal especially when our lineout has been under pressure?
Even in a loss I think some players were exceptional; McFarland and Earl in particular. Lozo one fumble aside showed his value at 13. Segun had a great game and showed the value of a proper kick-chase. A few lads were quiet by their standards but sometimes you just have to credit the opposition.
A bit of a reality check for both club and supporters maybe? Hopefully we can channel that for the remainder of the Premiership season.
Quick fixes:
Farrell had royally p*ssed off Brace by about half an hour in. By 50 he was being warned that Brace would look to talk to someone else. I get it was frustrating. IF there was a knee drop on Koch that's a red card about fifteen minutes in. I get that Brace continuously saying "No" to Toulon but not penalising them is too but you simply can't afford to lose the referee and we did very early. When we're winning comfortably Farrell seems to managed the referees well but in games like today he seems to struggle. Not sure what the solution is but it's a recurring problem.
Take the Flipping points!!!
If we're going to lean heavily on our kick-chase game then send players who can tackle and compete for the ball as the first up runners.
Safe trips home to supporters and players. I hope to see a reaction against Saints next weekend to confirm our home SF.
Overall what an occasion, what a match and the best team won.
For the next few seasons, at least, supporting an English team will be like following a team in the Football Championship: the league you play in is entertaining and of a good standard, there is another competition (the FA cup) where you can have a good run, occasionally you beat one of the big boys but you’ll never win it because you aren’t as good as them and over time they take your best players.
Looking at the finalists of both competitions it’s clear French rugby is a level above and only Leinster can compete with them. Next season the South African clubs join. Players like Theo and Nick Tomkins will eventually go to France because it’s a short career and they need to earn.
But hey, we’ll still produce young players and make the ones who join better, and life can still be fun.
Let's not forget the result against the Leinster "Galcticos" in their backyard a couple of seasons ago using what was already our Championship squad. Yesterday the better team probably won and yet that was in large part due to some questionable decision-making (the same turning down 3 points that Tigers were guilty of against Leinster)
If part of cutting our cloth to fit and hopefully making sure there is a Sarries or even a Premiership around in 5, 10 years time is that the Premiership teams are only competitive in that League maybe its a price worth paying?
With Nick T I think he's more likely to leave because we keep subbing him when he's one of the best players on the field to bring on ones who don't offer as much even on fresh legs.
I watched the game back this morning and even with some scrum struggles, lineout issues and losing a fair bit of ball in contact we should have put ourselves in a position to win that. For me even whilst I'm disappointed that feels encouraging.
With the rules the French have brought in with minimum numbers of French players required in squads there will be limited place’s available for non French. I chose NT and Theo because they don’t have the England issue to contend with and I think they will be good enough to be offered the big bucks. We shall see.
As I said, it’s not necessarily an unhappy situation.
Quote:OldMarovian
With Nick T I think he's more likely to leave because we keep subbing him when he's one of the best players on the field to bring on ones who don't offer as much even on fresh legs.
That was a baffling choice. Nick is consistently the only back to make metres in heavy traffic. Hopefully that gives him even more motivation for the end of the season because he has been exceptional all year.
Quote:TommyKentishQuote:OldMarovian
With Nick T I think he's more likely to leave because we keep subbing him when he's one of the best players on the field to bring on ones who don't offer as much even on fresh legs.
That was a baffling choice. Nick is consistently the only back to make metres in heavy traffic. .
I agree. Made absolutely no sense whatsoever. And Nick was absolutely fuming too.
It is in big games like that that you miss the sheer strength of a Kruis or Skelton and oh for the salmon leaping of Williams but that is what is not available when you have to play with a reduced salary cap and thus a smaller squad of international standard players.
Still feeling pretty good about the Premiership as Leicester are not Toulon.
Our lineout out has started to cause concern. Last week in Gloucester we made sure we got the catcher way up in the air which does impact the drive , but last night we didn’t really and were much easier to pick off.
Why on earth would Tomkins want to leave? He’s been brilliant this season and first choice at 12.
I should like to meet the person who thought this up and shake them by the ...
... Neck!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
An observation I have found is that sides who are more than 3 points up are happy to concede penalties all day as long as they don't concede a try. When they are 2 points up, they change their defence to be squeaky clean. The point is that if you need a penalty and a try, then get them in that order as there will be plenty of 3 points on offer. Going for a Try and then a penalty is twice as difficult
My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.
I'm begging her for one more try!
Quote:JO'G
I could not understand why , when we were 9 points down we started to kick for the corner. In that sort of tight situation we could easily have reduced it to 6 point with 72 on the clock. We didn't have much problem getting to their 22, just getting over the line
An observation I have found is that sides who are more than 3 points up are happy to concede penalties all day as long as they don't concede a try. When they are 2 points up, they change their defence to be squeaky clean. The point is that if you need a penalty and a try, then get them in that order as there will be plenty of 3 points on offer. Going for a Try and then a penalty is twice as difficult
+1
In fact +100.
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