By DK
July 15 2013

England’s Roses                                                 “No matter where I roam, I will return to my English rose, For no bonds can ever tempt me from she”         A casual reader of this website would think we always return to the England team, Will’s humorous jibes at Team England’s PR machine regularly generate 100’s of posts castigating all Tigers’ fans as anti-England, against the all-conquering (don’t mention the Welsh) Lancaster revolution and somehow against the natural order of things moving from old England to new as Ackford described Harlequins victory over Tigers in February 2013.

I missed his report on the Premiership semi… My view is we are a broad church, united by Tigers, we probably agree about Tigers more than most subjects, but within that there is room for varied views, when subjects dwell to England and beyond rugby those views get wider and more varied still. I often shake my head at discussions of England squads on these message boards, as in my mind there is barely a fag paper between 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice in most positions, but the selectors are heavily criticised for making a decision between them. So it is with trepidation that I write an article about the new EPS (Elite Player Squad) due to be announced by our hero Stu and the decisions he faces. This article and hopefully the following discussion seeks to do three things                                                           1) show we are capable of rational discussion of the England team without resorting to too much lampooning of Stu,                                                                               2) show the potential impact of the EPS announcement on Tigers and our rivals,       3) to fill some space and keep the message board alive for the summer.

I will look at each position and the candidates for the EPS Saxons. Who is going to be picked this year? How are we looking in the build up to the 2015 world cup? I haven’t considered any of our winning under 20’s team. Any of them could make the breakthrough this year, and many of our best players over the years have come straight from youth to international rugby, but it is a big physical gap and not one that will happen straight away.

Starting with the most important position; Tight-head prop. The current EPS players are our own Dan Cole and Bath’s David Wilson. Sale’s Saxon Henry Thomas performed bench duty in Argentina and seems the most likely back up player with Paul Doran Jones looking for a big season at new club Quins. While Thomas is a great prospect there seems little chance of a change to the top two unless injury or suspension hit the durable Cole and Wilson. Wilson is in the form of his life and will push Dan for the shirt particularly if he suffers a Lions hangover. From a Tigers point of view if Balmain gets plenty of game time and makes an impact he could push for a Saxons place.

Lions, Tigers and England’s starting hooker Tom Youngs is the man in possession of the number 2 shirt and who would back against him keeping it? Dylan Hartley will be a fascinating player to watch in the early stages of the 2013-14 season. Saints have made some cracking signings and could hit the ground running with the perceived injustice suffered by their sweary captain driving them on. A lot will depend on whether Hartley has rested up and knuckled down or if the blow of missing the Lions and severely damaging his teams chances at Twickenham is fatal. Many would have him punished further by kicking him out of the EPS, I can’t agree with that view. He’s missed out on a chance of a lifetime due to losing his cool. Will he do it again? I don’t prescribe to the view that it’s definitely not going to happen just because he’s now seen the consequences, how you react under extreme pressure is a very difficult thing to change, and being prone to rants, outbursts or inappropriate comments is a tricky habit to fix. From an England point of view the solution is simple though. Don’t make him captain and make sure the captain has an eye ear on him. Whether Saints follow that logic will be interesting to see. The Saxons hookers are David Paice and Joe Gray, while Rob Webber came in to the squad for Argentina and jumped the queue, and Rob Buchanan shares the Quins hooking duties with Gray and has played for the Saxons this year. Sarries’ Jamie George is well down the queue but did well in his first stint in their team and should get more game time to state his case this year. I can’t see Lancaster looking further than the East Midlands Duo for his main squad.

Loosehead, in common with Full-Back sees current EPS players that will line up for Quins, Sarries and Saints next year. They are two of the tightest calls with all players already capped and strong arguments to be made for each, much hot air will be blown on Sport Network over who should play in these positions. New Saint and Lion Alex Corbisiero is up against Quin Joe Marler and Sarrie Mako Vunipola. On paper Corbisiero has the best discipline and technique, Marler has the strongest attitude and Mako is the best ball carrier, but as with many areas of the squad, a players supposed strength can be their weakness and they can excel in areas they are supposed to be weak. Who would have thought Tom Youngs would throw at 100% in a Lions test? Not Stuart Barnes. In the 1 shirt England have terrific depth. Saxons players Nathan Catt from Bath and Matt Mullen soon to be of Wasps, could be right in the mix with a big season and Nick Wood of Gloucester is an option. Given that Andrew Sheridan is still playing at a high level and may be open to an approach ahead of 2015, we have a very strong crop of players fighting for the shirt. It’s our team’s greatest virtue and it’s curse. Outside of France, South Africa and New Zealand, all of these guys would get plenty of chances to prove themselves and settle in international rugby, but it’s not going to be easy to give them all a go. Good can be the enemy of great, we need those in possession now to step up to a dominant international level.

At Lock, Launchberry and Parling had excellent six nations campaigns. Courtney Lawes is the only other option in the current elite squad which seems unbalanced given the array of back row options, the coaches may well redress this by bringing in a Saxon, the back-up squad is lock heavy: Tom Palmer, George Robson, Ed Slater, Louis Deacon, Graham Kitchener and Mouritz Botha are officially in the Saxons, and Bath’s Dave Attwood came from outside the squads to play in Argentina. Saracens’ George Kruis will also be in the mix up benching vs Scotland A last year. Richard Cockerill could have 4 locks called up for various squads in a very Anglicised position for us, but I suspect Deacon will now drop out of the squads and Kitchener may have fallen behind some of the others too.

The back row of the scrum offers a wealth of strength to Lancaster. In Croft, Wood and Robshaw he has three exceptional 6’s. Robshaw can more than adequately move to 7, tackling everything that moves and leading the defensive line superbly, but it seems all 3 cannot play together (that pesky Wales game again). I expect to see plenty of game time for these three leaders in the Autumn tests with the unlucky one to miss out offering impact from the bench. In the oddly balanced EPS we also currently have three more 6’s in honest triers Tom Johnson and James Haskell and the controversial Callum Clark. Other than Robshaw there is no Seven in the squad, Thomas Waldrom and Ben Morgan provide the no.8 options, but time must surely be up for our Thomas now, he does not make the team even when Morgan is injured. Waiting in the Saxons wings are Matt Kvesic, Phil Dowson, Will Fraser and Billy Vunipola. Dowson falls in to the same honest category of Johnson and Haskell, but the other three are full of major potential. Kvesic moves to Gloucester and will hope to build on his excellent tour of Argentina. Vunipola joins Fraser at Saracens in an exciting English back row combination. A bold option would be to discount the idea of Robshaw at 7, unleash the hell of all battles at 6 and leave 7 between Kvesic and Fraser and 8 between Morgan and Vunipola. I can’t quite bring myself to back that option but would bring Kvesic in to the EPS in a very marginal call over Fraser. Other than Croft, Tigers could only really have Waldrom or Crane in with a back row spot, I suspect Crane may now be ahead of “The Tank” in England’s thinking as well as Leicester’s, but it will only be enough for the Saxons despite his Leeds history and friendship with Lancaster. Luke Wallace will be aiming to force Robshaw across the Quins back row and if he can manage that he could break straight through to the England team.

Behind the pack, Ben Youngs and Danny Care will surely resume their rivalry, two confident young players they will hopefully be paying plenty of attention to the Lions tour and their rivals at Rugby World Cup 2015, it must be remembered that this is what we are building towards. A team to beat Wales and Australia. Potential vs Will Genia and Mike Phillips is mighty important. Lee Dickson makes up the EPS, and Joe Simpson is in the Saxons, I see little reason to change the order, all can look like world beaters on their day and can struggle if the opposition get to them.

Farrell, Flood and Burns are in the current EPS with Ford in the Saxons, in the battle of the “daddies boys” it now stands at one premiership trophy a piece, but Owen is several strides ahead on the career chart so far. A lion, many England caps and a world player of the year nomination. The current EPS trio should remain. Of those Farrell the Lion is clearly in possession and starts as favourite, but doubts remain over his ability to fire the backs as Flood and Burns do. Ford starts a long way behind and baring leading a major Bath revival to 90’s levels of glory it’s hard to see how he will be able to break in to the squad. World Cup 2015, Wales and Australia, North and Folau, who do you want tackling them?

On the wing it is a similar problem, who will match up against the Aussie and Welsh giants? The Sarries’ pair of Ashton and Strettle are the only out and out wings in the existing EPS. Sharples, Wade, May, Biggs and Monye wait in the Saxons squad. All are good players, as are options outside of the squads such as Varndell and Thompstone and the impressive Marlande Yarde who scored a stunning debut try in the last England test. Who offers most in attack? Who is most likely to stop North, Cuthbert, Folau and Ioane? Lancaster has so far chosen one of his full backs on a wing with either Brown or Foden playing out of position. Whether that experiment continues will be interesting as will the Christian Wade Conundrum. Going forward he looks very, very, good. Smart feet, smooth hands, looks for work, lightning pace. But can he be the answer for 2015? Can we really see him stopping those giant wings? I’d be inclined to give him a go this year, but I’m very sceptical. There is potential out wide for England, but compared with the other top countries this is a weak position, and envious eyes are cast across the Severn at the English born giants representing Wales and the Lions. I don’t know the answer for us on the flanks. A rejuvenated Ashton could be the answer, Yarde and Wade are exciting. But, for sheer size England’s alternative is waiting at the Rec: Banahan needs to improve in many areas, but potentially he could be the answer, he will need a huge two years to jump the long queue though. I don’t expect many to agree with me but I can see a role for him.

In the centres, three quarters of the EPS are now in Australia with the Lions calling up Barritt and Twelvetrees to join Manu Tuilagi. Another new Bath signing Jonathan Joseph is the 4th member and is under severe pressure for his place from rugby league imports Kyle Eastmond and Joel Tomkins. Eastmond impressed in Argentina, but suffers from the same size issues as Wade and Ford. I can only see one of them making it in to a balanced back line for 2015. Certainly if Bath intend to play Ford and Eastmond at 10 and 12 then they might as well paint a big target in the middle of the Rec; “Big runners come through here”. Anthony Allen continues to excel for Tigers, but it’s hard to envisage how he gets a run for England other than in an injury crisis. Elliot Daly, George Lowe and Jordan Turner Hall are all in the Saxons squad with big Northampton centre Luther Burrell available too giving Stuart Lancaster a vast array of different styles to choose from. Barritt and Tuilagi are an underrated pairing that can flourish with the right players, Twelvetrees has the body shape for international rugby and needs to show he has the mentality. The opening weeks of the Premiership will be a big shop window for all these fringe players.

Finally at Full Back, it’s those three class acts Foden, Brown and Goode. A position of strength for England with all being capped, Adendanon, Tait and others available as back up and Daly able to play there too. Not to mention that it would be easy to imagine Twelvetrees, Burns or Farrell doing a good job if pressed in to action by circumstance. I think Foden should come back in but all three are more than capable of the job.

My choices keeping the same balance as the current squad of 18 forwards and 14 backs are:

EPS:

Cole, Wilson
T Youngs, Hartley, Webber
M Vunipola, Corbisiero, Marler
Parling, Launchberry, Attwood, Lawes
Croft, Wood
Robshaw, Kvesic
Morgan, B Vunipola

B Youngs, Care
Farrell, Flood, Burns
Barritt, Twelvetrees
Tuilagi, Eastmond
Ashton, Wade
Foden, Brown, Goode

Saxons 32 players (18 Forwards 14 backs):

Thomas, Doran-Jones
Buchanan, Grey
Catt, Mullen
Robson, Slater, Kitchener, Kruis
Haskell, Clarke
Fraser, Wallace
Crane, Guest

Dickson, Simpson
Ford, Myler
Tomkins, Allen, Turner-Hall
Lowe, Daly
Yarde, May, Sharples
Abendonan, Tait

England have an exciting crop of players, this squad (many blooded by Johnson) will reach maturity in 2015, in most positions they are as strong as any. Bring on the new season!

nbsp;

England's Roses

Discussion started by TheLeicesterTigers.co.uk , 15/07/2013 21:34

TheLeicesterTigers.co.uk
15/07/2013 21:34

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:07:29:21:10:42 by Tiggs.

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Stopsy
16/07/2013 08:01

Many thanks, you appear to have hit all 3 of your objectives!

I'm not sure that trying to match size and ability with size and less ability will work on the wings. Halfpenny has shown that size isn't everything and while I realise he isn't English England need to see whether they can develop some of the more agile players in their defensive and kicking game.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013:07:16:08:03:37 by Stopsy.

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Rich W
16/07/2013 09:58

Interesting read - and requiring some thought.

Thanks.

...

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SimW
16/07/2013 11:22

Good piece DK. It does seem that we have real strength in some positions but real weakness in others.

The problem I can see Lancaster having is the wide variety of options he has in some positions. It will make it difficult to play a consistent style and I don't believe we have the skill sets to play heads up Rugby.

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irishaxeman
16/07/2013 11:47

Good to put in the 'blooded by MJ ' point....often one that SL sycophants choose to deny.

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Tiger in the Bath
16/07/2013 15:54

The Bath faithful rate Attwood very highly with good reason. Plenty of power and controlled aggression with not a little skill. Could well step up to the EPS quite quickly.

And for me Hartley will not be seen again. Discipline is crucial at the top level and he has fallen sort one too many times. Rob Webber's return to fitness should see him return to understudy Youngs

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Stopsy
16/07/2013 18:23

Good call on Attwood

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tbtb
18/07/2013 11:57

If Attwood would have come here (not that it was ever mooted even) he would be first choice for England by now.

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Duncan Keene
28/07/2013 12:52

Thanks all, have been away for a couple of weeks so missed the responses. Will be interesting to see on Thursday how many i've got right.

Stopsy, yes I agree we need more skillful and agile players, my point was I can only see one out of Wade, Ford and Eastmond in a balanced backline. Halfpenny performs this role perfectly for Wales, but even their scrum half is a giant.

Sim, completely agree that a wealth of options is a bit of a problem for England.

TitB, yes Attwood is strong and as you can see I expect him to be named, but 4th lock is as tight as any of the choices so i could also see them going with only 3 and a wealth of saxons as per this season.

I would be surprised and feel sorry for Hartley if he loses his England career as well as the premiership title and lions tour over a sweary mouth, but if he doesn't show form after his ban then I guess it is possible.

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Tiggs
29/07/2013 21:09

Many thanks DK !!!

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P G Tips
30/07/2013 14:03

Liked your narrative DK - but having praised Banahan you find no place for him in the Saxons.

I think you are clsoe with your EPS prediction (although Yarde may force his way in)

PG

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Duncan Keene
30/07/2013 15:42

Yes, Banahan is my outsider for 2015, but he's got to find some form from somewhere to get in. Good news for Bath if he gets back on the wing and on the end of some Eastmond magic.

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Duncan Keene
01/08/2013 11:21

Official EPS announcement

Forwards
David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

So I had assumed they would stick with 18 forwards. Webber the unlucky man to miss out from my selection. All the additions and ommissions as predicted.

Backs
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

So there's now 16 backs, 2 more than last year. Dickson and Yarde plus the 14 I predicted.

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