Leicester Tigers
Saracens v Tigers LV Match Preview
By ChrisC
November 7 2012
Mystery to Me Fleetwood Mac changed such a lot over the years starting with the departure of founding member Peter Green who, in company with Mick Fleetwood, John McVie and Danny Kirwan (Green, Fleetwood and McVie having previously been with John Mayall in John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers) all played on “Albatross” which was a #1 hit in the UK and even now crops up in film soundtracks and commercials.
Fleetwood Mac were a real blues orientated band, as befitted their genus, and I was a big fan. “Black Magic Woman” and “Need Your Love So Bad” were marvellous. But it was Albatross that was their big hit even though I preferred their wistful “Man of the World” from that era.
There were manifold personnel changes over the years until in 1973 the band, that now included the eponymous Mick Fleetwood, Bob Weston, Bob Welch, John McVie and his wife Christine McVie (nee Perfect) released the first album; “Mystery to Me”, that moved the band toward the soft rock that brought them such success later with “Rumours” and “Tango in the Night” by which time Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham had joined the line up.
“Mystery to Me” wasn’t one of their best, maybe because I wanted the “real” Fleetwood Mac. The odd thing was that it included a version of Graham Gouldman’s composition “For Your Love” which had been a big hit for The Yardbirds, the group that launched the careers of Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton and Jimmy Page and of course later Gouldman joined up with Kevin Godley, Lol Creme and Eric Stewart, who’d been with The Mindbenders, to form 10CC, another favourite of mine.
Mystery to Me was a without doubt a loyalty purchase for fans during a time when the band were in the doldrums and none the worse for that and it brings me to loyalty and the fact that the LV Cup remains a mystery to me.
I still wonder why the LV= Cup has this odd cross playing between the groups arrangement where teams from one group play teams from another rather than just play their group peers. Now it may be that it’s a nod toward the arcane habits of insurance companies, after all who the hell knows what they’re up to?!
While I dislike the competition, much as I do the play-off system in the Premiership, loyalty dictates that the team has to be supported even when they are obliged to participate in such ersatz constructs.
I don’t think I’m entirely alone in my antipathy which isn’t helped by the differing attitudes of the managements of the participating clubs.
Tigers start this year’s competition as the reigning champions having defeated Northampton in last year’s final at Sixways, a match that has gained infamy for the actions of Saints’ Calum Clark, a player who’s ban, for his assault in Tigers Rob Hawkins, recently ended and who was selected for last Saturday’s match against Tigers in an act of crassness by Jim Mallinder. As it was Clark made little impression other than being allowed to be off side and pull mauls down illegally by Greg Garner. At least Clark didn’t maim anybody, this time anyway. I can’t help but ponder whether, with Clark being paraded, both sides had been cautioned to be on their best behaviour for it was an oddly passionless encounter, notable more for George Ford’s terrible kicking display and the referee’s own terrible display than anything else.
Last season’s LV= Cup staggered into life with the World Cup fizzling out, so at the time of the first round some of the players involved in the IRB’s pantomime were still away, some feeding the media with more stories than they could handle, while others were back ready for the fray but ignored as Richard Cockerill spurned the opportunity to get a head start against what was bound to be an inexperienced Scarlets side by sending an equally inexperienced Tigers’ side to Wales where they were duly, and ignominiously, despatched by 31 points to 3. The Tigers’ team that evening having just a returning from injury Geoff Parling and Niall Morris who were first XV participants in their rookie set up.
At Saracens Technical Director Brendan Venter and his team deployed a slightly stronger squad with a greater presence from the first team to face Saints at Franklins Gardens but were still seen off by 36 points to 6 by a strong home side who galloped in five tries.
The following week, having seemingly woken from his slumbers Cockerill deployed a pretty much full strength side at Welford Road to dispose of Gloucester by 40 points to 14.
Saracens similarly engaged with the competition and enhanced their squad for the trip to Sandy Park where they ran out comfortable winners by 43 points to 20 and somewhat remarkably slotted four tries in the process against a mix and match Exeter Chiefs.
Back then of course Saracens were less discommoded by international absentees and had more choice than did Cockerill, the fact that the Leicester coach made the wrong choices from those that he had available is another matter.
The scenario this time is markedly different as the coaching teams have to consider husbanding their resources beyond a single match as the End of Season Internationals meander meaninglessly onward until not only the two LV= matches are passed but two Premiership matches as well and which, in Tigers’ case, are against opposition that is hardly troubled by the demands of the money spinning antics of the national teams.
During this protracted period, when for some reason it was thought a good idea to slot in another coffer enhancing match for Tigers against the NZ Maori, Tigers will potentially be missing thirteen of their first choice players while Saracens fair better with six lost to England ( Botha, Vunipola, Barritt, Farrell, and Goode with Ashton variously suspended or on duty) while Brown is in the Scotland squad , Wyles with the Eagles and Brits with South Africa.
The original concept of the LV= Cup was to give fringe players an opportunity but in the event while some clubs have been prepared, perforce, to stick to this ideal others, largely untroubled by international call ups, deploy full strength squads, or an approximation thereof, which gives the competition a sort of two speed arrangement. The “want to wins” and the “what evers”
Another example of the incompetence with which our sport is run is shown again this week when, with the LV= Cup schedule to begin on Friday, Saracens’ fringe players, who are supposedly to feature, played on Monday in the A team competition, where a bonus point victory saw them into the semi-finals of the southern conference. As this gives the players involved (the ones who are supposedly to feature on Friday) just four days recovery time either the organisers of the sport care nothing for player welfare or they are designating the LV= Cup as a competition for players that are on the fringe of the fringe – a sort of “Beyond the Fringe”!! Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
My guess is that both coaches will look to preserve what’s left of their first choice squads with maybe the odd “old head” guiding the tyros carrying the colours.
I’ve had a bash at working out what’s going to happen as far as squad selection is concerned but to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld: “... there are known unknowns and then there are unknown unknowns” this match falls into both catagories of unknowns especially where the pack is concerned and given the need to factor in the requirement for Tigers to also play Premiership matches against Gloucester and Bath within the period when the squad is depleted, with neither of those teams much affected by the absence of internationals, they’ll have pretty much full strength packs to deploy against Tigers.
Saracens for their part have fewer problems in the pack but their first choice back line is weakened and they are also to play Gloucester with their high paced backs and a stubborn Worcester at Sixways also await them. Could be a fruitful few weeks for the Cherry and Whites.
I’d hope to see Kieran Brookes back to start on the tight-head for the Tigers to face loose-head; Italian Lorenzo Romano but as he was slated for the starting line up for Saracens’ Storm against London Welsh it may be that South African Petrus du plessis, who was part of the Monday squad is earmarked. In truth with just Vunipola and Brits potentially missing McCall has a pretty free hand up front so it could well be a testing time for the makeshift Tigers’ trio and an area where Saracens will see a real chance to dominate.
In the second row I would anticipate seeing Tigers’ join in with the South African motif by giving lock Rob Andrew a run. With Kitchener and Slater being saved for other duties and Louis Deacon looking like he’s injured again, Andrew may be joined by young Joe Cain, while for Sarries it could be George Kruis and Eoin Sherriff doing another shift or maybe young Tom Jubb will get a start.
Unless the likes of Hargreaves or Borthwick are involved then the completion at the line out could be closer.
With Crane, Waldrom, Mafi, Croft, Jooste and maybe even Thorpe denied to Cockerill the cupboard is looking pretty bare and I can’t imagine Julian Salvi will be exposed for this kind of fixture. If Jooste were fit we could get a bit of a biltong fest going.
Aside from expecting Noone to get a start I have no idea what the Tigers’ back row will look like. For Saracens though I’d expect to see Andy Saull joining with South African flanker Nick Fenton-Wells who was signed this season from Stormers with young Matt Hankin playing a part. That’s all depending of course on McCall not releasing such as Joubert who is looking for match time after injury, although Wray and Fraser are off on their hols., so they’ll not be involved. Hard to see much joy around the breakdown for Tigers if Saull is on parade and so all in all it could be a difficult time in the pack for Tigers.
It will be interesting behind the scrum for Tigers’ supporters to see if Micky Young finally gets a match and how they gel if George Ford is given match time to forget about his performance with the boot against Saints.
I don’t expect to see Wigglesworth or de Kock on duty for Saracens and that it’ll be England Saxon Ben Spencer joining with another Saxon Nils Mordt. This half back pairing played against London Welsh on Monday.
Down in the charnel house at Llanelli in last year’s opening match of the LV= Cup there was not much credit to be given however I liked the look of Andy Symons in his only appearance for the senior team and would like to see him again as Allen will need to be held back for other trials to come and of course Dan Bowden has gone on holiday. Andy Forsyth is another who’s been patiently waiting for another crack of the whip from Richard Cockerill. Forsyth was very impressive in his try scoring appearance against Quins in last year’s competition and did little wrong when he started in the Premiership and European Cup last term.
I’d expect to see Fijian international Kameli Ratuvou in the centre for Saracens as he’s been ousted from much first team action of late and he’d be a real challenge for the young Tigers’ defenders especially as I suspect Joel Tompkins could be alongside him as he’s been part of Saracens’ Storm squad lately.
This would be a very tough pairing to gainsay.
Out wide for Tigers surely Alex Lewington will get his chance. He’s recently had an outing for Nottingham when he started in their 31 -22 victory down in Plymouth so is match fit and he’s quick.
On the other side Mat Tait must surely get a match soon mustn’t he? I’d hope to see him and Thompstone in the squad for Friday with Niall Morris getting another start in the #15 shirt as he looks impressive and just needs match time to be a really credible successor to Geordan Murphy.
I expect to see James Short involved on one wing for the hosts, a speedy, mazy runner who’s hard to put down and paired with Kiwi Joe Maddock who’s been little used since he came back from his not altogether auspicious trip to Italy where he went sacrificing a pre-eminent position with Bath.
Full back for Sarries could be Ben Ransom who’s been on one of those job experience gigs with Bedford.
I’m finding it hard to see where a win at Goldington Road is going to come from for Tigers given the resources that Technical Director Brendan Venter’s coaching team has available to it, especially in the forwards where Tigers are getting down to the bone in many positions.
But as I said; it’s a mystery to me.
There were manifold personnel changes over the years until in 1973 the band, that now included the eponymous Mick Fleetwood, Bob Weston, Bob Welch, John McVie and his wife Christine McVie (nee Perfect) released the first album; “Mystery to Me”, that moved the band toward the soft rock that brought them such success later with “Rumours” and “Tango in the Night” by which time Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham had joined the line up.
“Mystery to Me” wasn’t one of their best, maybe because I wanted the “real” Fleetwood Mac. The odd thing was that it included a version of Graham Gouldman’s composition “For Your Love” which had been a big hit for The Yardbirds, the group that launched the careers of Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton and Jimmy Page and of course later Gouldman joined up with Kevin Godley, Lol Creme and Eric Stewart, who’d been with The Mindbenders, to form 10CC, another favourite of mine.
Mystery to Me was a without doubt a loyalty purchase for fans during a time when the band were in the doldrums and none the worse for that and it brings me to loyalty and the fact that the LV Cup remains a mystery to me.
I still wonder why the LV= Cup has this odd cross playing between the groups arrangement where teams from one group play teams from another rather than just play their group peers. Now it may be that it’s a nod toward the arcane habits of insurance companies, after all who the hell knows what they’re up to?!
While I dislike the competition, much as I do the play-off system in the Premiership, loyalty dictates that the team has to be supported even when they are obliged to participate in such ersatz constructs.
I don’t think I’m entirely alone in my antipathy which isn’t helped by the differing attitudes of the managements of the participating clubs.
Tigers start this year’s competition as the reigning champions having defeated Northampton in last year’s final at Sixways, a match that has gained infamy for the actions of Saints’ Calum Clark, a player who’s ban, for his assault in Tigers Rob Hawkins, recently ended and who was selected for last Saturday’s match against Tigers in an act of crassness by Jim Mallinder. As it was Clark made little impression other than being allowed to be off side and pull mauls down illegally by Greg Garner. At least Clark didn’t maim anybody, this time anyway. I can’t help but ponder whether, with Clark being paraded, both sides had been cautioned to be on their best behaviour for it was an oddly passionless encounter, notable more for George Ford’s terrible kicking display and the referee’s own terrible display than anything else.
Last season’s LV= Cup staggered into life with the World Cup fizzling out, so at the time of the first round some of the players involved in the IRB’s pantomime were still away, some feeding the media with more stories than they could handle, while others were back ready for the fray but ignored as Richard Cockerill spurned the opportunity to get a head start against what was bound to be an inexperienced Scarlets side by sending an equally inexperienced Tigers’ side to Wales where they were duly, and ignominiously, despatched by 31 points to 3. The Tigers’ team that evening having just a returning from injury Geoff Parling and Niall Morris who were first XV participants in their rookie set up.
At Saracens Technical Director Brendan Venter and his team deployed a slightly stronger squad with a greater presence from the first team to face Saints at Franklins Gardens but were still seen off by 36 points to 6 by a strong home side who galloped in five tries.
The following week, having seemingly woken from his slumbers Cockerill deployed a pretty much full strength side at Welford Road to dispose of Gloucester by 40 points to 14.
Saracens similarly engaged with the competition and enhanced their squad for the trip to Sandy Park where they ran out comfortable winners by 43 points to 20 and somewhat remarkably slotted four tries in the process against a mix and match Exeter Chiefs.
Back then of course Saracens were less discommoded by international absentees and had more choice than did Cockerill, the fact that the Leicester coach made the wrong choices from those that he had available is another matter.
The scenario this time is markedly different as the coaching teams have to consider husbanding their resources beyond a single match as the End of Season Internationals meander meaninglessly onward until not only the two LV= matches are passed but two Premiership matches as well and which, in Tigers’ case, are against opposition that is hardly troubled by the demands of the money spinning antics of the national teams.
During this protracted period, when for some reason it was thought a good idea to slot in another coffer enhancing match for Tigers against the NZ Maori, Tigers will potentially be missing thirteen of their first choice players while Saracens fair better with six lost to England ( Botha, Vunipola, Barritt, Farrell, and Goode with Ashton variously suspended or on duty) while Brown is in the Scotland squad , Wyles with the Eagles and Brits with South Africa.
The original concept of the LV= Cup was to give fringe players an opportunity but in the event while some clubs have been prepared, perforce, to stick to this ideal others, largely untroubled by international call ups, deploy full strength squads, or an approximation thereof, which gives the competition a sort of two speed arrangement. The “want to wins” and the “what evers”
Another example of the incompetence with which our sport is run is shown again this week when, with the LV= Cup schedule to begin on Friday, Saracens’ fringe players, who are supposedly to feature, played on Monday in the A team competition, where a bonus point victory saw them into the semi-finals of the southern conference. As this gives the players involved (the ones who are supposedly to feature on Friday) just four days recovery time either the organisers of the sport care nothing for player welfare or they are designating the LV= Cup as a competition for players that are on the fringe of the fringe – a sort of “Beyond the Fringe”!! Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
My guess is that both coaches will look to preserve what’s left of their first choice squads with maybe the odd “old head” guiding the tyros carrying the colours.
I’ve had a bash at working out what’s going to happen as far as squad selection is concerned but to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld: “... there are known unknowns and then there are unknown unknowns” this match falls into both catagories of unknowns especially where the pack is concerned and given the need to factor in the requirement for Tigers to also play Premiership matches against Gloucester and Bath within the period when the squad is depleted, with neither of those teams much affected by the absence of internationals, they’ll have pretty much full strength packs to deploy against Tigers.
Saracens for their part have fewer problems in the pack but their first choice back line is weakened and they are also to play Gloucester with their high paced backs and a stubborn Worcester at Sixways also await them. Could be a fruitful few weeks for the Cherry and Whites.
I’d hope to see Kieran Brookes back to start on the tight-head for the Tigers to face loose-head; Italian Lorenzo Romano but as he was slated for the starting line up for Saracens’ Storm against London Welsh it may be that South African Petrus du plessis, who was part of the Monday squad is earmarked. In truth with just Vunipola and Brits potentially missing McCall has a pretty free hand up front so it could well be a testing time for the makeshift Tigers’ trio and an area where Saracens will see a real chance to dominate.
In the second row I would anticipate seeing Tigers’ join in with the South African motif by giving lock Rob Andrew a run. With Kitchener and Slater being saved for other duties and Louis Deacon looking like he’s injured again, Andrew may be joined by young Joe Cain, while for Sarries it could be George Kruis and Eoin Sherriff doing another shift or maybe young Tom Jubb will get a start.
Unless the likes of Hargreaves or Borthwick are involved then the completion at the line out could be closer.
With Crane, Waldrom, Mafi, Croft, Jooste and maybe even Thorpe denied to Cockerill the cupboard is looking pretty bare and I can’t imagine Julian Salvi will be exposed for this kind of fixture. If Jooste were fit we could get a bit of a biltong fest going.
Aside from expecting Noone to get a start I have no idea what the Tigers’ back row will look like. For Saracens though I’d expect to see Andy Saull joining with South African flanker Nick Fenton-Wells who was signed this season from Stormers with young Matt Hankin playing a part. That’s all depending of course on McCall not releasing such as Joubert who is looking for match time after injury, although Wray and Fraser are off on their hols., so they’ll not be involved. Hard to see much joy around the breakdown for Tigers if Saull is on parade and so all in all it could be a difficult time in the pack for Tigers.
It will be interesting behind the scrum for Tigers’ supporters to see if Micky Young finally gets a match and how they gel if George Ford is given match time to forget about his performance with the boot against Saints.
I don’t expect to see Wigglesworth or de Kock on duty for Saracens and that it’ll be England Saxon Ben Spencer joining with another Saxon Nils Mordt. This half back pairing played against London Welsh on Monday.
Down in the charnel house at Llanelli in last year’s opening match of the LV= Cup there was not much credit to be given however I liked the look of Andy Symons in his only appearance for the senior team and would like to see him again as Allen will need to be held back for other trials to come and of course Dan Bowden has gone on holiday. Andy Forsyth is another who’s been patiently waiting for another crack of the whip from Richard Cockerill. Forsyth was very impressive in his try scoring appearance against Quins in last year’s competition and did little wrong when he started in the Premiership and European Cup last term.
I’d expect to see Fijian international Kameli Ratuvou in the centre for Saracens as he’s been ousted from much first team action of late and he’d be a real challenge for the young Tigers’ defenders especially as I suspect Joel Tompkins could be alongside him as he’s been part of Saracens’ Storm squad lately.
This would be a very tough pairing to gainsay.
Out wide for Tigers surely Alex Lewington will get his chance. He’s recently had an outing for Nottingham when he started in their 31 -22 victory down in Plymouth so is match fit and he’s quick.
On the other side Mat Tait must surely get a match soon mustn’t he? I’d hope to see him and Thompstone in the squad for Friday with Niall Morris getting another start in the #15 shirt as he looks impressive and just needs match time to be a really credible successor to Geordan Murphy.
I expect to see James Short involved on one wing for the hosts, a speedy, mazy runner who’s hard to put down and paired with Kiwi Joe Maddock who’s been little used since he came back from his not altogether auspicious trip to Italy where he went sacrificing a pre-eminent position with Bath.
Full back for Sarries could be Ben Ransom who’s been on one of those job experience gigs with Bedford.
I’m finding it hard to see where a win at Goldington Road is going to come from for Tigers given the resources that Technical Director Brendan Venter’s coaching team has available to it, especially in the forwards where Tigers are getting down to the bone in many positions.
But as I said; it’s a mystery to me.
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Discussion started by TheLeicesterTigers.co.uk , 07/11/2012 12:53
TheLeicesterTigers.co.uk
07/11/2012 12:53
07/11/2012 12:53
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:11:12:21:28:06 by Tiggs.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012:11:12:21:28:06 by Tiggs.
Thanks for the preview. A great deal of information gathered and included. A good prediction of our team although Kameli is now with Fiji. Looking forward to the game and hope to see many of you there, even if the competition rules are somewhat baffling!
Safe journey all. Bedford centre at a standstill on AA website. No there's a surprise!!
Safe journey all. Bedford centre at a standstill on AA website. No there's a surprise!!
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