Northampton Saints
Saints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
By Saint Ted
February 18 2022
This is the Saints v Sale match thread
Who:
Notrthampton Saints v Sale Sharks
When:
Saturday 19th February 2022 15:00
Where:
Franklins Gardens
How do I watch:
This match is not being broadcast live in the UK
Tickets available from
Officials:
Referee: Tom Foley
Assistant referees: Matthew Carley and George Selwood
No.4: Simon Park
TMO: Anthony Woodthorpe
Teams:
Not considered for selection:
Matthew Arden, Emeka Atuanya, Dan Biggar, Tommy Freeman, Jake Garside, Oisín Heffernan, Tom James, Lewis Ludlam, Alex Moon, Taqele Naiyaravoro, Kayde Sylvester, and Tom Wood.
International duty:
Courtney Lawes (Eng)
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StumbleuponSaints v Sale Match Thread - Teams Up
Discussion started by Marching On , 18/02/2022 12:07
Marching On
18/02/2022 12:07
18/02/2022 12:07
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:25:12:10:09 by Saint Ted.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:25:12:10:09 by Saint Ted.
Usual caveat of I'm not a coach and haven't seen them in training but it just seems plain weird to take our best centre for the last few games and stick him at full back. When we have an international{ish) full back playing at fly half and a fly half on the bench.
Would agree with TimperleySaint on the above. I wonder if the fly half on the bench is carrying an injury? I was hoping to see Biggar but that was optimistic.
Great to see Piers on the bench assuming all is well.
Great to see Piers on the bench assuming all is well.
Anyone want to give me odds on Francis coming off the bench to play at fly half and Grayson remaining an unused sub once again?
Sale look at our team and think "Braai"..
Interested to see performances-
Furbank V Maginty a well established 10 and,
Mitchell V Quirke at 9
Dingwall V Rensburg at 12
Hutchinson V James at 15.
If our forwards can supply any ball.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:18:13:09:34 by Rugbyman01.
Interested to see performances-
Furbank V Maginty a well established 10 and,
Mitchell V Quirke at 9
Dingwall V Rensburg at 12
Hutchinson V James at 15.
If our forwards can supply any ball.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:18:13:09:34 by Rugbyman01.
Quote:Deesaint
welkom by die verkoop rugbyspan en sterkte
Good try but verkoop refers to a basic shop sale as opposed to opruiming which is a clearance/seasonal sale.
With a run of challenging fixtures coming up we really need a win.
Hopefully we front up. Nansen, Wilkins, Painter will bring some power to the pack. But the Sale pack and backs still look more physical.
Iyogun starting suggests he is viewed as in the top 2 for loosehead given Auterac and Hobbs-Awoyemi aren't down as injured or away for internationals.
COYS!!!
Hopefully we front up. Nansen, Wilkins, Painter will bring some power to the pack. But the Sale pack and backs still look more physical.
Iyogun starting suggests he is viewed as in the top 2 for loosehead given Auterac and Hobbs-Awoyemi aren't down as injured or away for internationals.
COYS!!!
Last week we suffered at full back with Tuala not being as confident as needed and furbank should have been there with Grayson at 10. Yet again furbank paying at 10 while Grayson available and must be in the eyes of the management team good enough to start if on the bench since anyone could get injured minutes into a game.
Frustrating.
Frustrating.
Quote:Matthew
Anyone want to give me odds on Francis coming off the bench to play at fly half and Grayson remaining an unused sub once again?
I would actually put money on it. Sadly.
Interesting selection and really good to see Nansen and Wilkins both giving a start we really need the physicality and strength they have brought briefly this season.
Think this will be really challenging though - in some ways Sale we the toughest team for Saints because they are so physical and:
1) we completely lost the breakdown last week, big fan of Harrison but our back row and particularly him at 7 has to step up over the ball
2) line out - continues to be poor and inconsistent. Do we have a line out coach? We really need one as our jumpers aren't that bad and Matavesi throwing has improved so why are we facing so many issues?
3) physicality and carrying: scrum improved a bit but around the park at times it's like were playing with 3-4 forwards, particularly with two gone missing props half the time.
Backs selection is interesting. Agree it's risky but coaches obviously think Furbank is the better fly half for our style of play. Hutch was ok at 15 last week and you need Proctor on field so whilst agreed it's a risky one i understand it. It does suggest Grayson should move on if he has aspirations to be a starting fly half though unfortunately. Ultimately unless our pack fronts up it won't matter anyway. Similarly it doesn't matter how good our backs can be and that's probably true for the entire season and going forward unless we're willing to be more decisive with standards, selection and recruitment (though appreciate recruitment is very challenging currently).
Hope they prove me wrong and they have a stormer
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:18:16:01:42 by Saintfanh.
Think this will be really challenging though - in some ways Sale we the toughest team for Saints because they are so physical and:
1) we completely lost the breakdown last week, big fan of Harrison but our back row and particularly him at 7 has to step up over the ball
2) line out - continues to be poor and inconsistent. Do we have a line out coach? We really need one as our jumpers aren't that bad and Matavesi throwing has improved so why are we facing so many issues?
3) physicality and carrying: scrum improved a bit but around the park at times it's like were playing with 3-4 forwards, particularly with two gone missing props half the time.
Backs selection is interesting. Agree it's risky but coaches obviously think Furbank is the better fly half for our style of play. Hutch was ok at 15 last week and you need Proctor on field so whilst agreed it's a risky one i understand it. It does suggest Grayson should move on if he has aspirations to be a starting fly half though unfortunately. Ultimately unless our pack fronts up it won't matter anyway. Similarly it doesn't matter how good our backs can be and that's probably true for the entire season and going forward unless we're willing to be more decisive with standards, selection and recruitment (though appreciate recruitment is very challenging currently).
Hope they prove me wrong and they have a stormer
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:18:16:01:42 by Saintfanh.
They have tried to put the best players on the pitch, we shall see if it works. I believe JG is over rated, with a different surname he would be viewed similar to Will Hooley. It is refreshing to see a team sheet with a different front row, good luck to the young props.
While I can see where people are coming from with the playing out of position comments etc, I think it's a bit of a moot point given that most of our issues stem from having a pack who simply aren't powerful, disciplined or well drilled enough to compete against top sides. To me Biggar has often looked ordinary playing behind our pack, while Stephen Myler often looked great playing behind our prem winning pack (that's no slight to him btw).
Like Spockst pleased to see the props rotated, will be interesting to see how we get on against a tough Sale pack...
Like Spockst pleased to see the props rotated, will be interesting to see how we get on against a tough Sale pack...
We need to win this
Otherwise I feel we will be on an unstoppable decline
Whatever it takes
Even if it’s just a 1 pointer
Come on Saints
About time we put all the good bits together and have a great 80 minutes
Otherwise I feel we will be on an unstoppable decline
Whatever it takes
Even if it’s just a 1 pointer
Come on Saints
About time we put all the good bits together and have a great 80 minutes
Saints should have loaned Grayson out the club are stiffling his development. Hopefully he can find a club next season that will use him, and that pains me to say that coming from a saints fan that I would encourage a player to leave.
The team are in a downward spiral at the moment masked by their ability to comfortably turnover clubs at the foot of the table. Playing individuals out of position and hoping that relative ‘rookies’ can turn things around could be considered acts of desperation rather than creative selections.
A gutsy narrow win against Sale would be quite a tonic !
A gutsy narrow win against Sale would be quite a tonic !
Quote:Aberavon Wizard
The team are in a downward spiral at the moment masked by their ability to comfortably turnover clubs at the foot of the table. Playing individuals out of position and hoping that relative ‘rookies’ can turn things around could be considered acts of desperation rather than creative selections.
A gutsy narrow win against Sale would be quite a tonic !
Think that’s over stating it somewhat.. treading water in mid table would be more accurate. We are what we are, as St Marcus said we are under powered up front that’s not going to change anytime soon so it’s no good us all hand wringing every week. Sale can blow hot and cold and can also get on the wrong side of the ref. One can only hope it’s a cold Sale and the ref takes a dislike to them this week, I fear that’s our only chance
There is no way on earth Francis will play at 10, Hutchinson has more chance than him so not sure whether that was a flippant comment on players out of position or a more serious one. Francis despite having experience at 10 at previous clubs as far as I can remember never played any minutes there for us. I think we will see Hutchinson and Furbank interchanging quite a bit in attack as first and second receiver, I am guessing it will be fluid which is no bad thing offensively imo. Proctor gives a bit more steel to the midfield hopefully
So thinking ahead to next season. Every likelihood that Biggar, Furbank and Hutchinson will be away on International duties which leaves Grayson and Francis able to play at outside half - James may well leave the club at the end of the season ( hope not !) which leaves Piers who is very injury prone.
Ideas anyone ?
Ideas anyone ?
Quote:Aberavon Wizard
So thinking ahead to next season. Every likelihood that Biggar, Furbank and Hutchinson will be away on International duties which leaves Grayson and Francis able to play at outside half - James may well leave the club at the end of the season ( hope not !) which leaves Piers who is very injury prone.
Ideas anyone ?
Paul Hill? *
Quote:Aberavon Wizard
So thinking ahead to next season. Every likelihood that Biggar, Furbank and Hutchinson will be away on International duties which leaves Grayson and Francis able to play at outside half - James may well leave the club at the end of the season ( hope not !) which leaves Piers who is very injury prone.
Ideas anyone ?
It won’t be Francis.. I’m not clued up on the relative strengths of the Academy players currently, is there a young 10 emerging from that area? We seem to have had a decent drip feed of backs coming though past couple of seasons
Quote:Walks11Quote:Aberavon Wizard
So thinking ahead to next season. Every likelihood that Biggar, Furbank and Hutchinson will be away on International duties which leaves Grayson and Francis able to play at outside half - James may well leave the club at the end of the season ( hope not !) which leaves Piers who is very injury prone.
Ideas anyone ?
It won’t be Francis.. I’m not clued up on the relative strengths of the Academy players currently, is there a young 10 emerging from that area? We seem to have had a decent drip feed of backs coming though past couple of seasons
Then it’s a significant problem bearing in mind the league games played when the Internationals are away. A team with ideas of top four and silverware needs more depth than someone from the academy and do we know that the Wanderers will be seen again next campaign anyway ?
Grayson should be a shoe in behind Biggar with Furbank there as an emergency standby but no more in the number ten shirt. George runs the risk of being a Jack of all trades if he is not careful.
well its not if we are signing AN Other or there is a good academy prospect hence the question. if we have a good young lad then a signing maybe unlikely, if not then with James probably departing it needs a someone to come in. Francis could no doubt do a job as could Hutchinson as well as Furbank. in my opinion id rather a specialist at 10 whoever that may be.
Just another thought, as well as Eddie Jones seeing Furbank as a potential 10 could it be that we are looking to push Furbank at 10 to accommodate Freeman at 15
Just another thought, as well as Eddie Jones seeing Furbank as a potential 10 could it be that we are looking to push Furbank at 10 to accommodate Freeman at 15
Sounds it is as I expected. Doing Ok in the scrum though.
Wonder what the effect change in ref will have?
Wonder what the effect change in ref will have?
ignoring the first 2 minutes that sounded like a decent half. not overpowered as I think we all thought they might
close game and saints seem to be holding there own just
14: 15 before half time
Seems scrum is holding up
maul seems to be working.
Loads of quick passing by Saints but not quite making the outside
14: 15 before half time
Seems scrum is holding up
maul seems to be working.
Loads of quick passing by Saints but not quite making the outside
I just got in and put the match on. How we looking? Score is tight.....
Lot better after first 10 minutes
Great try to take lead
Different team when Proctor plays
Great try to take lead
Different team when Proctor plays
But still trying to rush it and cost Saints two close in try opportunities.
Maybe it is my (negative) influence.
Maybe it is my (negative) influence.
And Hutch (I think) lost a Garryowen to little Faf? Totally unacceptable.
Quote:That's me....Deesaint
It was great till you arrived
Bloody Jonah. 🤣🤣🤣
Now drive it over
Quote:Saint GordoQuote:That's me....Deesaint
It was great till you arrived
Bloody Jonah. 🤣🤣🤣
Now drive it over
Mmmmmm
This team is 50% half brain dead.
That's my medical opinion. My opinion as a fan is worse.....
That's my medical opinion. My opinion as a fan is worse.....
Quote:You called it. So now I blame you.Deesaint
Or till Waller came on 😳
I caught 5 minutes at the start and 5 minutes at the end. I saw furbank charged down at the start and hutch dropping. At the end I saw furbank miss a tough kick. Anything happen in the middle bit to refute my feeling that furbank is not a 10 and hutch is not a 15? Thanks.
Who chose to kick for goal from the touchline at the end in these conditions? I understand why it was taken - though I was hoping it wouldn't be and that we'd kick for the corner - but didn't catch who elected for the kick.
Edit: wind has dropped a bit and the Loughborough fly half has just knocked a conversion over from pretty much the same part of the pitch. Hmm.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:17:26:49 by Matthew.
Edit: wind has dropped a bit and the Loughborough fly half has just knocked a conversion over from pretty much the same part of the pitch. Hmm.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:17:26:49 by Matthew.
Fronted up physically today. Won the scrum battle. Lineout much improved. Rolling maul effective. Had all the possession and all the territory. Penalty count half that of Sale. And we still can't win!?
Playing players out of position is risky and it hurt us today. Hutch is a fabulous player but he lost 3 high balls today and 2 of those cost us 14 points. Furbank had 2 kicks charged down which both put us under enormous pressure.
As others have said, we look so much better when Proctor plays.
I had zero expectations coming into this game so I guess 1 point is a bonus - but it could and should have been 5. Still, much better performance than the garbage we've been playing recently.
Playing players out of position is risky and it hurt us today. Hutch is a fabulous player but he lost 3 high balls today and 2 of those cost us 14 points. Furbank had 2 kicks charged down which both put us under enormous pressure.
As others have said, we look so much better when Proctor plays.
I had zero expectations coming into this game so I guess 1 point is a bonus - but it could and should have been 5. Still, much better performance than the garbage we've been playing recently.
Iyogun and Painter did very well indeed. So well that I fear we have been starting the wrong props all season. Please continue to start them to build their confidence.
The set piece and the maul worked well which is good news against Sale’s pack.
It was a shame that Furbank missed the last kick but otherwise he did pretty well.
The difference in the 2 sides was our lack of heavy ball carriers throughout the team, not just in the forwards. Our only line breaks seemed to require Proctor using some individual brilliance with footwork. Phase after phase we were hit back behind the gain line. This gives us no platform to create holes with backs moves. We need a big centre and we need more ball carriers in the forwards, I do not think we will ever cause teams enough problems without addressing that.
The balance of the squad is wrong in the centres. Proctor is a 13, Rory, Piers and Dingwall are small playmakers. Piers should retire in my view. Van Rensburg is precisely the player that Saints need and to imagine that Sale also have Tuilagi.
Did we need to sign the likes of Skosan and Wilkins when other areas were weaker and needed addressing?
Rory is definitely not a full back and we look forward to Tommy Freeman returning. I would rather Hendy given a run to be honest (not sure if he is away with U20?)
Mitchell’s kicking game was uncharacteristically poor. In tricky windy conditions Sale scored 2 tries from contestable Garryowens. I can not remember us kicking anything contestable.
The set piece and the maul worked well which is good news against Sale’s pack.
It was a shame that Furbank missed the last kick but otherwise he did pretty well.
The difference in the 2 sides was our lack of heavy ball carriers throughout the team, not just in the forwards. Our only line breaks seemed to require Proctor using some individual brilliance with footwork. Phase after phase we were hit back behind the gain line. This gives us no platform to create holes with backs moves. We need a big centre and we need more ball carriers in the forwards, I do not think we will ever cause teams enough problems without addressing that.
The balance of the squad is wrong in the centres. Proctor is a 13, Rory, Piers and Dingwall are small playmakers. Piers should retire in my view. Van Rensburg is precisely the player that Saints need and to imagine that Sale also have Tuilagi.
Did we need to sign the likes of Skosan and Wilkins when other areas were weaker and needed addressing?
Rory is definitely not a full back and we look forward to Tommy Freeman returning. I would rather Hendy given a run to be honest (not sure if he is away with U20?)
Mitchell’s kicking game was uncharacteristically poor. In tricky windy conditions Sale scored 2 tries from contestable Garryowens. I can not remember us kicking anything contestable.
Quote:Spockst
Did we need to sign the likes of Skosan and Wilkins when other areas were weaker and needed addressing?
That's an odd logic...
Quote:Any kicker would have been 50:50 at best in those conditions from out wide. I agree with you the best option was to kick for the corner. At least then the team could have driven over, or set up a drop in front of the posts.Matthew
Who chose to kick for goal from the touchline at the end in these conditions? I understand why it was taken - though I was hoping it wouldn't be and that we'd kick for the corner - but didn't catch who elected for the kick.
The whole team appeared to be competing for who could throw the hardest passes to catch and also who could drop the most. Ultimately, after the pen was called, what on earth was Api doing trying to whip a pass to Waller(!) when calm and control was needed.
From what I saw (2nd half only) Furbank was good.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:17:30:14 by Saint Gordo.
It isn’t even necessarily size in the centre it is physicality.
Dan Kelly at Tigers is not a huge guy but when you see him stand next to Dingwall or Hutchison he is comparatively rippling in muscles. You just can’t beat that in the centres. We need more pure strength both there and across the team, maybe we have the wrong strength and conditioning approach (?), our players all seem to be generally skinnier than the opposition. Lewis Ludlam, Trokkie, Proctor and maybe Api are the right shape, for example.
Dan Kelly at Tigers is not a huge guy but when you see him stand next to Dingwall or Hutchison he is comparatively rippling in muscles. You just can’t beat that in the centres. We need more pure strength both there and across the team, maybe we have the wrong strength and conditioning approach (?), our players all seem to be generally skinnier than the opposition. Lewis Ludlam, Trokkie, Proctor and maybe Api are the right shape, for example.
still no sigh of Mr Grayson
just mind blowing what on earth is going on behind the senes ?
the club needs to make an announcement regarding our number 10
just mind blowing what on earth is going on behind the senes ?
the club needs to make an announcement regarding our number 10
Quote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Spockst
Did we need to sign the likes of Skosan and Wilkins when other areas were weaker and needed addressing?
That's an odd logic...
The logic for me is that there is a salary cap. If we are lacking a top class loose head and a big 12 then I would rather the cap was spent on that instead and we started Collins or Long-Martinez on the wing, and we have plenty of flankers. Wilkins has spent at least 50% of the season not in the matchday squad?
Good players on an individual basis but I don’t think we were crying out to have more reinforcements in those positions. Priorities are elsewhere.
So we should just sign any old loosehead and big twelve? We mustn't strengthen anywhere else in the squad until these two positions are filled? Which of these two must be sorted first or do they have to happen simultaneously?
After watching that loss: [getyarn.io]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:18:04:18 by Saint Gordo.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:18:04:18 by Saint Gordo.
Boyd has had 4 years to sort out the balance of the squad. Recruitment has been poor.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:18:06:29 by Statesman.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:18:06:29 by Statesman.
That was actually a decent game to watch with some good rugby interrupted by a lot of errors. We now know, if we didn’t already, that Saints are no more than a mid-table side that is treading water until next season. Dress up all the excuses you like but that is where Saints are and for a club with ambition that is not good enough.
I don’t intend to give individuals a hard time but we cannot continue playing arguably our best full back out of position whilst utilising an in-form centre in the fifteen shirt. I feel for George missing a kick from the touch line in blustery conditions - sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t even if a pragmatist would have preferred a kick to the corner……small margins. Far too often we had two, even three players going for the same ball, as they say in football, ‘put a name on it’ !
I spoke to someone today who is far closer to things than most of us and queried the position of James Grayson. I was told that Furbank is seen as Biggars natural successor and that James will be gone at the end of the season - make of that what you will but I will fondly remember him kicking last minute winners at Quins and Saracens !
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:18:24:53 by Aberavon Wizard.
I don’t intend to give individuals a hard time but we cannot continue playing arguably our best full back out of position whilst utilising an in-form centre in the fifteen shirt. I feel for George missing a kick from the touch line in blustery conditions - sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t even if a pragmatist would have preferred a kick to the corner……small margins. Far too often we had two, even three players going for the same ball, as they say in football, ‘put a name on it’ !
I spoke to someone today who is far closer to things than most of us and queried the position of James Grayson. I was told that Furbank is seen as Biggars natural successor and that James will be gone at the end of the season - make of that what you will but I will fondly remember him kicking last minute winners at Quins and Saracens !
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:19:18:24:53 by Aberavon Wizard.
Quote:Aberavon Wizard
That was actually a decent game to watch with some decent rugby interrupted by a lot of errors. We now know, if we didn’t already, that Saints are no more than a mid-table side that is treading water until next season. Dress up all the excuses you like but that is where Saints are and for a club with ambition that is not good enough.
I don’t intend to give individuals a hard time but we cannot continue playing arguably our best full back out of position whilst utilising an in-form centre in the fifteen shirt. I feel for George missing a kick from the touch line in blustery conditions - sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t even if a pragmatist would have preferred a kick to the corner……small margins. Far too often we had two, even three players going for the same ball, as they say in football, ‘put a name on it’ !
Freeman over Furbank at 15, surely?
Quote:SaintsDuncan
So we should just sign any old loosehead and big twelve? We mustn't strengthen anywhere else in the squad until these two positions are filled? Which of these two must be sorted first or do they have to happen simultaneously?
I understand your point now.
No, Not any. We have had the same centre group for 3 years now? People have been suggesting we have needed a big 12 since Symons left? I think 3 years is enough time to plug a clear gaping whole, if us mere amateurs can see it then why can’t the professionals? We have had the same props for a similar time and Alex has been starting 1 since Corbisiero? Maybe it’s time to build up Manny, and maybe the coaches knew this all along but I’m doubtful. Unlucky that Danny H-A had an injury but I’m not sure any of those available are the real top dollar loosehead?
3 years or so seem like enough time to be able to allocate the funds and find the required talent because other teams have done.
Just one comment on the last choice, penalty kick over lineout.
On Radio Noddy Ian Hunter described it clearly as the right choice, give that with the kick to touch, there were far too many things that were weather dependent - apart from the technical competence of our lineout (my comment not his).
GB could have missed touch.
Touch was found nowhere near the corner flag.
Throw goes wrong.
Ball dropped.
Scrum collapsed, ball sealed off etc.
As opposed to GB just having to try and kick the thing.
On Radio Noddy Ian Hunter described it clearly as the right choice, give that with the kick to touch, there were far too many things that were weather dependent - apart from the technical competence of our lineout (my comment not his).
GB could have missed touch.
Touch was found nowhere near the corner flag.
Throw goes wrong.
Ball dropped.
Scrum collapsed, ball sealed off etc.
As opposed to GB just having to try and kick the thing.
Mitch, Grayson, Skosun, Dingers, Hutch, Proctor, Furbank wins today’s game imo.
For me it is the quality of the signings
Players that can walk into the team and make an immediate difference due to their experience
The last time that happened it was DB
We tend to look for players that could come good
But will spend a good amount of time either reaching that potential or not
The 4 year experiment has not really worked
Will we now see a further 4 years under the guidance of Boyd/Dawson
Will we be able to challenge for top 4 in 4 years
Are we all just accepting mediocrity as the Saints norm and we should be pleased that we came close to beating Sale at home
But we have a great pitch and stadium
Lots of money in the bank
A great set of supporters who will keep turning up and paying their dues season after season
No worries no stress for the senior Saints team
Interesting how Worcs played on Friday
Seemed to have far more spring in their step
Might be Diamond telling them to shape up or move on
Well at least we are playing a team below us in the league next week so should be in with a chance 😳
Players that can walk into the team and make an immediate difference due to their experience
The last time that happened it was DB
We tend to look for players that could come good
But will spend a good amount of time either reaching that potential or not
The 4 year experiment has not really worked
Will we now see a further 4 years under the guidance of Boyd/Dawson
Will we be able to challenge for top 4 in 4 years
Are we all just accepting mediocrity as the Saints norm and we should be pleased that we came close to beating Sale at home
But we have a great pitch and stadium
Lots of money in the bank
A great set of supporters who will keep turning up and paying their dues season after season
No worries no stress for the senior Saints team
Interesting how Worcs played on Friday
Seemed to have far more spring in their step
Might be Diamond telling them to shape up or move on
Well at least we are playing a team below us in the league next week so should be in with a chance 😳
Quote:SpockstQuote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Spockst
Did we need to sign the likes of Skosan and Wilkins when other areas were weaker and needed addressing?
That's an odd logic...
The logic for me is that there is a salary cap. If we are lacking a top class loose head and a big 12 then I would rather the cap was spent on that instead and we started Collins or Long-Martinez on the wing, and we have plenty of flankers. Wilkins has spent at least 50% of the season not in the matchday squad?
Good players on an individual basis but I don’t think we were crying out to have more reinforcements in those positions. Priorities are elsewhere.
you still need to sign back up players, you can't have a 23 man squad. You need to cover international call ups and injuries so a decent degree of depth. Wilkins wouldn't have been expensive and I would doubt Skosan was overly expensive either. A top class prop and a big physical centre would be significantly more money than either of those 2. There is a reason that most of the best props don't play in England (unless they are English) and that is because of the cap. So we are left with trying to develop out of the academy or trying to unearth a hidden gem from the lower league(s). Every team in our league is in the same boat. Our scrum has generally performed better this season and from listening to the radio coverage we generally had the edge on Sale at the scrum. I don't think scrummage is necessarily a major area for concern, however we do need ball carriers and I guess it doesn't matter which position they play but we need more physical carriers than we currently have. Thats not to say either wouldn't be welcome but think we have more chance of a top crash ball no. 12 (assuming some departures) rather than a big known prop.
For me I think we are weak at hooker and also 2nd row is looking light. both areas should be beefed up and think the line out needs to be addressed more than the scrum. We lose too many attacking lineouts in the red zone, a big lump in 2nd row should address in part the line out and ball carrying.
Quote:Walks11Quote:SpockstQuote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Spockst
Did we need to sign the likes of Skosan and Wilkins when other areas were weaker and needed addressing?
That's an odd logic...
The logic for me is that there is a salary cap. If we are lacking a top class loose head and a big 12 then I would rather the cap was spent on that instead and we started Collins or Long-Martinez on the wing, and we have plenty of flankers. Wilkins has spent at least 50% of the season not in the matchday squad?
Good players on an individual basis but I don’t think we were crying out to have more reinforcements in those positions. Priorities are elsewhere.
you still need to sign back up players, you can't have a 23 man squad. You need to cover international call ups and injuries so a decent degree of depth. Wilkins wouldn't have been expensive and I would doubt Skosan was overly expensive either. A top class prop and a big physical centre would be significantly more money than either of those 2. There is a reason that most of the best props don't play in England (unless they are English) and that is because of the cap. So we are left with trying to develop out of the academy or trying to unearth a hidden gem from the lower league(s). Every team in our league is in the same boat. Our scrum has generally performed better this season and from listening to the radio coverage we generally had the edge on Sale at the scrum. I don't think scrummage is necessarily a major area for concern, however we do need ball carriers and I guess it doesn't matter which position they play but we need more physical carriers than we currently have. Thats not to say either wouldn't be welcome but think we have more chance of a top crash ball no. 12 (assuming some departures) rather than a big known prop.
For me I think we are weak at hooker and also 2nd row is looking light. both areas should be beefed up and think the line out needs to be addressed more than the scrum. We lose too many attacking lineouts in the red zone, a big lump in 2nd row should address in part the line out and ball carrying.
There are 2 elements to recruitment. One is re-signing players and another is signing players. We have had at least 3 years to get a big centre as part of our centres ‘grouping’ to give us that option. We have had 5 years since Corbisiero (?) to replace him as we replaced Tongaui’ha with Corbisiero.
There is no excuse to have a group of ‘samey’ centres and be under powered at loosehead. It’s just bad planning.
A 12 at 15
A 15 at 10
A winger in Centre
A fly halt getting splinters on bench.
A 15 at 10
A winger in Centre
A fly halt getting splinters on bench.
Quote:Statesman
Mitch, Grayson, Skosun, Dingers, Hutch, Proctor, Furbank wins today’s game imo.
+1
I also like the way Manny and Ehren go about their business. No fuss, no ego, no chopsy to the ref, just head down grafting. I think it sets a better tone and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that our discipline was better as a result.
Our recruitment has been below par for a long time. Paul Shields has over seen it. Not good enough.
Coaches have not developed the quality of depth required in prem to be top 4. Lose all meaningful games.
Grayson is clearly leaving or being moved on with way club is handling him.
Now 8th and more than likely 9th after tomorrow.
I can't celebrate another defeat.
Coaches have not developed the quality of depth required in prem to be top 4. Lose all meaningful games.
Grayson is clearly leaving or being moved on with way club is handling him.
Now 8th and more than likely 9th after tomorrow.
I can't celebrate another defeat.
Quote:SpockstQuote:Walks11Quote:SpockstQuote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Spockst
Did we need to sign the likes of Skosan and Wilkins when other areas were weaker and needed addressing?
That's an odd logic...
The logic for me is that there is a salary cap. If we are lacking a top class loose head and a big 12 then I would rather the cap was spent on that instead and we started Collins or Long-Martinez on the wing, and we have plenty of flankers. Wilkins has spent at least 50% of the season not in the matchday squad?
Good players on an individual basis but I don’t think we were crying out to have more reinforcements in those positions. Priorities are elsewhere.
you still need to sign back up players, you can't have a 23 man squad. You need to cover international call ups and injuries so a decent degree of depth. Wilkins wouldn't have been expensive and I would doubt Skosan was overly expensive either. A top class prop and a big physical centre would be significantly more money than either of those 2. There is a reason that most of the best props don't play in England (unless they are English) and that is because of the cap. So we are left with trying to develop out of the academy or trying to unearth a hidden gem from the lower league(s). Every team in our league is in the same boat. Our scrum has generally performed better this season and from listening to the radio coverage we generally had the edge on Sale at the scrum. I don't think scrummage is necessarily a major area for concern, however we do need ball carriers and I guess it doesn't matter which position they play but we need more physical carriers than we currently have. Thats not to say either wouldn't be welcome but think we have more chance of a top crash ball no. 12 (assuming some departures) rather than a big known prop.
For me I think we are weak at hooker and also 2nd row is looking light. both areas should be beefed up and think the line out needs to be addressed more than the scrum. We lose too many attacking lineouts in the red zone, a big lump in 2nd row should address in part the line out and ball carrying.
There are 2 elements to recruitment. One is re-signing players and another is signing players. We have had at least 3 years to get a big centre as part of our centres ‘grouping’ to give us that option. We have had 5 years since Corbisiero (?) to replace him as we replaced Tongaui’ha with Corbisiero.
There is no excuse to have a group of ‘samey’ centres and be under powered at loosehead. It’s just bad planning.
don't think the coaches think we need a big centre or at least haven't previously so its not bad planning as such. its also not a pre-requisite to have a big centre, we the fans think it is thats all. Props are a different proposition and as I said previously they are very expensive unless you develop one or unearth one. We can't afford a Corbisiero any more nor can many teams in our league. so we continue to develop youngsters (2 did ok today) and try and find one that doesn't cost the earth that may just end up being quite good. its no coincidence that most of the best props are plying their trade in France or salaries part funded by the IRFU. its where the money is
Quote:Big daddy 3Quote:Statesman
Mitch, Grayson, Skosun, Dingers, Hutch, Proctor, Furbank wins today’s game imo.
+1
For me Sleights form does not warrant a place in team. No points.in 11 games for a winger.
+1
Quote:Rugbyman01Quote:Big daddy 3Quote:Statesman
Mitch, Grayson, Skosun, Dingers, Hutch, Proctor, Furbank wins today’s game imo.
+1
For me Sleights form does not warrant a place in team. No points.in 11 games for a winger.
+1
Oli seems very out of sorts since his injury
Ok fair points.
On the big 12 I think it is a necessity when we have a team under powered with ball carrying. It’s ok for Saracens to have Tompkins and Lozowski with their forwards. Tigers have not only bigger ball carrying forwards but also more aggressive centres. Quins have a monster 12 and better props than us (they already had Marler but then added Louw the massive south African who made a big difference.
We have under powered forward ball carriers and under powered centre ball carriers (as a squad group). I think it’s almost impossible to win the Prem (if that is our goal) with that combination. You need the Harlem globe trotters in the back to create tries!
It’s about balance and I think we lack it. Today Sale just had to fan across the pitch and make their tackles. We have lots of really talented sportsmen like Furbank, Hutch, Dingwall and Piers but not enough big monsters.
On the big 12 I think it is a necessity when we have a team under powered with ball carrying. It’s ok for Saracens to have Tompkins and Lozowski with their forwards. Tigers have not only bigger ball carrying forwards but also more aggressive centres. Quins have a monster 12 and better props than us (they already had Marler but then added Louw the massive south African who made a big difference.
We have under powered forward ball carriers and under powered centre ball carriers (as a squad group). I think it’s almost impossible to win the Prem (if that is our goal) with that combination. You need the Harlem globe trotters in the back to create tries!
It’s about balance and I think we lack it. Today Sale just had to fan across the pitch and make their tackles. We have lots of really talented sportsmen like Furbank, Hutch, Dingwall and Piers but not enough big monsters.
We are under powered in the forwards and have been for years. West produced a heck of a pack and we never replaced Tiny, Corbs, Hartley, Manoa, Mujati, Day, Dowson. The Picamoles experiment worked and didn’t work at the same time.
Boyd deserves a lot of credit for bringing through various academy players through to the first team and getting some England caps. One huge criticism of saints under Jim and Dorian is that the backs never made headway from the academy to the first time. The only names of the top of my head that played during that era from the academy was Diggin and Elliott. A lot of work has gone in to address that.
But under Boyd we never have understood what it takes to go through a season and challenge. We seem to have problems in conditions where it does not suit Super 14 rugby. Right from when Saint played Tigers in the pouring rain that became evident. Under Boyd we seem to have been experimenting a way forward so it comes as little surprise to see the saints as being bang average.
I think as the weather improves saints will improve and we’ll finish 6th. But to be a good side you must win your home games like today and countless others that have been lost under Boyd’s tenure. I don’t think Sale are a good side but they have a bigger pack, mentally and physically and under Sanderson they know what it takes to win games like todays. I must confess that under the superbru game I had saints to lose by more so to bring it to 1 point was relatively pleasing to see.
Dowson and Vesty in particular know what it takes to succeed at the top level in this league and I am confident that they will make the necessary changes to propel the saints forward.
At present it feels like going through the motions until the season is over.
Boyd deserves a lot of credit for bringing through various academy players through to the first team and getting some England caps. One huge criticism of saints under Jim and Dorian is that the backs never made headway from the academy to the first time. The only names of the top of my head that played during that era from the academy was Diggin and Elliott. A lot of work has gone in to address that.
But under Boyd we never have understood what it takes to go through a season and challenge. We seem to have problems in conditions where it does not suit Super 14 rugby. Right from when Saint played Tigers in the pouring rain that became evident. Under Boyd we seem to have been experimenting a way forward so it comes as little surprise to see the saints as being bang average.
I think as the weather improves saints will improve and we’ll finish 6th. But to be a good side you must win your home games like today and countless others that have been lost under Boyd’s tenure. I don’t think Sale are a good side but they have a bigger pack, mentally and physically and under Sanderson they know what it takes to win games like todays. I must confess that under the superbru game I had saints to lose by more so to bring it to 1 point was relatively pleasing to see.
Dowson and Vesty in particular know what it takes to succeed at the top level in this league and I am confident that they will make the necessary changes to propel the saints forward.
At present it feels like going through the motions until the season is over.
Quote:Spockst
Ok fair points.
On the big 12 I think it is a necessity when we have a team under powered with ball carrying. It’s ok for Saracens to have Tompkins and Lozowski with their forwards. Tigers have not only bigger ball carrying forwards but also more aggressive centres. Quins have a monster 12 and better props than us (they already had Marler but then added Louw the massive south African who made a big difference.
We have under powered forward ball carriers and under powered centre ball carriers (as a squad group). I think it’s almost impossible to win the Prem (if that is our goal) with that combination. You need the Harlem globe trotters in the back to create tries!
It’s about balance and I think we lack it. Today Sale just had to fan across the pitch and make their tackles. We have lots of really talented sportsmen like Furbank, Hutch, Dingwall and Piers but not enough big monsters.
I agree, but not sure the coaches see it the same way in terms of a big 12. I do think we will see a little churn of players so maybe and hopefully some additions.
Amen. We are only a few players away from being top 4 I think. Today when we were winning the scrums it made big difference to our momentum.
Just got home, it was an odd game today, we arrived a few minutes late and by that time it was 0-10. So from our perspective we saw Saints win 21-12. We had hoped for a kick to the corner, quick ball from the mail to centre pitch and a drop goal to end on a real win but it wasn't to be. Never mind I'll still be there next week to watch us beat Exeter, I am an eternal optimist after all.
Sale have now won 5 in a row including beating Tigers so the narrow loss was much better than I expected. That are a physical side and without Lawes, Ludlum and Woody I thought that Saints would be bullied - all credit to the pack to impose themselves. Like other posters, I really don’t understand Furbank at fly half and Grayson on the bench. If JG is leaving at the end of the season I think it will be our loss and someone else’s gain. I too think that we are treading water and will see a different approach next season. I have been entertained by Boyd’s style of play but despite his change of heart about scrummaging in the NH I still don’t think that he really gets the importance of the pack. Let’s hope for an entertaining end to the season as the grounds firm up.
Quote:Spockst
Amen. We are only a few players away from being top 4 I think. Today when we were winning the scrums it made big difference to our momentum.
Hmmm, about 6 to 8 players from being a top four side in my opinion!
The Boyd project has been poor, and our board have to take responsibility for that appointment! We’ve never looked like seriously challenging for the title the last four years!!
The question for me is what are our finances like??
We need to sign some high quality players, and they won’t be cheap.
If the long term plan is young home grown saints players and coaches then let’s start Manny and Ehren every week. And get Coles more game time
Quote:St Saltaire
Sale have now won 5 in a row including beating Tigers so the narrow loss was much better than I expected. That are a physical side and without Lawes, Ludlum and Woody I thought that Saints would be bullied - all credit to the pack to impose themselves. Like other posters, I really don’t understand Furbank at fly half and Grayson on the bench. If JG is leaving at the end of the season I think it will be our loss and someone else’s gain. I too think that we are treading water and will see a different approach next season. I have been entertained by Boyd’s style of play but despite his change of heart about scrummaging in the NH I still don’t think that he really gets the importance of the pack. Let’s hope for an entertaining end to the season as the grounds firm up.
I think he does but in a different way, our problem is we are neither one thing nor the other. If you take La Rochelle for a season or 2 ago (haven’t watched them recently), they played at breakneck speed and was great to watch. I think it was similar to how we want to play, the problem being their pack was stacked with fantastic ball handlers, ours isn’t unfortunately. I think we both lack some grunt nor do we have the skills to enact our current game plan (todays dropped ball emphasises the point).
Does anyone else think we repeatedly fail to use advantage? It’s is either aimlessly kicked away (similar to most of our kicking game) or lack something creating that would give us a chance of scoring. I thought this was epitomised by Waller not paying attention when we had the final penalty. Surely you use the advantage to go through the phases with the aim of getting a second and more lockable penalty?
Pre Covid we were repeatedly told that Saints were paying up to the limit imposed by the Salary Cap. Whether or not this is true today I don’t know but I suspect we may not. Notwithstanding the utter nonsense of the ‘marquee player’, I would presume that our three most expensive players are Biggar, Naiyaravoro and Lawes; two of these three spend much of the season unavailable due to International calls whilst the third has been out of action since the pre-season friendly at Bedford. If Saints were not paying up to the limit, then the release of Chris Boyd will free up some expenditure for players assuming that all of his existing salary will not be taken up by two inexperienced coaches who be taking more responsibility. Add to that one or two senior players who are coming towards the end of their top flight career allied to the usual end of season departures, one could conclude that there will be a reasonable budget for new players. Whether Messrs Dowson and Vesty can attract the right calibre of hungry players to, paraphrasing Matt Dawson, the nice comfortable club is another matter
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:20:07:24:15 by Aberavon Wizard.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:20:07:24:15 by Aberavon Wizard.
Quote:Dave Jackson
A 12 at 15
A 15 at 10
A winger in Centre
A fly halt getting splinters on bench.
and a hooker coming on at No 6 ??
Quote:Awaywin
Does anyone else think we repeatedly fail to use advantage? It’s is either aimlessly kicked away (similar to most of our kicking game) or lack something creating that would give us a chance of scoring. I thought this was epitomised by Waller not paying attention when we had the final penalty. Surely you use the advantage to go through the phases with the aim of getting a second and more lockable penalty?
we had a penalty on the other side about 8 minutes before which was in a much more kickable position but instead of getting points on the board we went to the corner and again got it wrong giving Sale the opportunity to get back up field.
there really needs to be some scrutiny at how some of these decisions are being made and looking at winning the game first before pursuing bonus points and then losing it.
Quote:Big daddy 3
still no sigh of Mr Grayson
just mind blowing what on earth is going on behind the senes ?
the club needs to make an announcement regarding our number 10
Why
Moan and bemoan the team selection all we like, but where were the leaders today? Not sure show any penalties we were awarded in the last 15, but it was clear we were never going to guarantee a pushover score.
So why keep kicking for the corner in a 1 point game?!!
So why keep kicking for the corner in a 1 point game?!!
Quote:DragonboyQuote:Big daddy 3
still no sigh of Mr Grayson
just mind blowing what on earth is going on behind the senes ?
the club needs to make an announcement regarding our number 10
Why
The ‘club’ don’t need to say anything. Good luck to James.
I spoke to someone today who is far closer to things than most of us and queried the position of James Grayson. I was told that Furbank is seen as Biggars natural successor and that James will be gone at the end of the season - make of that what you will but I will fondly remember him kicking last minute winners at Quins and Saracens ![/quote]
Oh Dear !
Oh Dear !
The board have appointment 2 people who are a fundamental part of the organisation which has delivered very little in past 4 years. Whilst I can only hope for improvement in our competitiveness, I am not overly optimistic unless we have a clear out and new signings.
Be interesting to see how quickly Diamond can improve Worcester and I bet it won't be 4 seasons plus. Personally I think we have had coaching and recruitment issues for a long time and improvement Will only come with mgt changes. The Board are very comfortable with Mid table so we all better get use to it.
Be interesting to see how quickly Diamond can improve Worcester and I bet it won't be 4 seasons plus. Personally I think we have had coaching and recruitment issues for a long time and improvement Will only come with mgt changes. The Board are very comfortable with Mid table so we all better get use to it.
My view of the game was that this was a big improvement. Sale are playing well and absolutely massive and we dominated possession and territory. Line out much improved. Scrum improved. We actually mauled a bit!
That said the same same things reared their ugly head. One contestable kick and try time. We made so many mistakes in the red zone.
To echo what others have said - it was so noticeable that when we got into phase play we just went backwards. Ribbans, Augustus and Proctor carried well but that was about it.
That said the same same things reared their ugly head. One contestable kick and try time. We made so many mistakes in the red zone.
To echo what others have said - it was so noticeable that when we got into phase play we just went backwards. Ribbans, Augustus and Proctor carried well but that was about it.
A typical Saints game. Some of our unaddressed issues costing us easy points coupled with some lovely attacking moments from Saints.
The perennially unaddressed issues this week: two soft runaways tries from our poor catching of contestable balls. Plus Sam James try where our defence falls to fan round the corner to cut off the overlap.
However, a lovely try from Mitchell following a beautifully crafted break and late flick on of the ball,from Proctor and Skosan's hard to defend cut back.
Well that was a home game against a team lower than us and we lost. Next 4 games don't get any easier.
Exeter at home
Gloucester away
Wasps at home
Irish away
The perennially unaddressed issues this week: two soft runaways tries from our poor catching of contestable balls. Plus Sam James try where our defence falls to fan round the corner to cut off the overlap.
However, a lovely try from Mitchell following a beautifully crafted break and late flick on of the ball,from Proctor and Skosan's hard to defend cut back.
Well that was a home game against a team lower than us and we lost. Next 4 games don't get any easier.
Exeter at home
Gloucester away
Wasps at home
Irish away
We are naive at times in pushing the boundaries, loads of players between the Sale catcher and Hutchinson for the first try and yet he runs through them unimpeded to make the catch.
Quote:Walks11
We are naive at times in pushing the boundaries, loads of players between the Sale catcher and Hutchinson for the first try and yet he runs through them unimpeded to make the catch.
Both tries that came from the high ball showed our inability to dominate the catching area
We just didn’t attack the ball we treated it like a practice catch with no thought of competition
We should have been driving through in the air and clattering the sale players
Quote:SpockstQuote:DragonboyQuote:Big daddy 3
still no sigh of Mr Grayson
just mind blowing what on earth is going on behind the senes ?
the club needs to make an announcement regarding our number 10
Why
The ‘club’ don’t need to say anything. Good luck to James.
No, they don't "need" to, but it highlights an arrogance, that suggests they don't think it relevant or important. Well it is - to many supporters. Who pay their wages.
To have had him on the bench and not play him - as other subs were - for the past two games smacks of childishness.
Much of the criticism of the game we are playing at the moment, is down to those coaches. If they cannot behave like adults, why should the players?
And why should we give them any slack on the forums?
A lot of good work done by the Saints but sadly the same issues as discussed 'ad nauseam' on this sight persist , and lead to losing a game that should have been a home victory . Sale were efficient in implementing their game plan and no more .
With the fixtures for the remainder of the season I would like to see Saints giving all/many of our young/fringe players valuable game time experience , as they would be the future for the club . As relegation is not an issue our league standing is not concerning . So what if we do not qualify for European competition , how well has that gone recently ? No doubt revenue generation for these games will take priority though .
With the fixtures for the remainder of the season I would like to see Saints giving all/many of our young/fringe players valuable game time experience , as they would be the future for the club . As relegation is not an issue our league standing is not concerning . So what if we do not qualify for European competition , how well has that gone recently ? No doubt revenue generation for these games will take priority though .
Quote:AdyW
A lot of good work done by the Saints but sadly the same issues as discussed 'ad nauseam' on this sight persist , and lead to losing a game that should have been a home victory . Sale were efficient in implementing their game plan and no more .
With the fixtures for the remainder of the season I would like to see Saints giving all/many of our young/fringe players valuable game time experience , as they would be the future for the club . As relegation is not an issue our league standing is not concerning . So what if we do not qualify for European competition , how well has that gone recently ? No doubt revenue generation for these games will take priority though .
Until we mathematically have no chance of top 4 we are not in realms of ‘giving people a game’ for whatever reason. I’m sure the club, coaches and players have not given up on this season as you seem to have
Found yesterdays defeat the most disappointing in a while. Sale weren't that good imo - very limited game, strong in defence though. Did not have to work hard for their 22 points. We had loads of territory and possession and failed to convert. Conditions were tricky but some of our passing was appalling again - so many down at knee/bootstrap level and hitting the deck. As others have said we lack enough powerful ball carriers to consistently get over the gain line against a good defence, so quick ball and accurate hands are crucial to create space in the wider channels. And in general our work under the high ball is so poor - very few of our players are reliable. Another very frustrating afternoon.
Quote:LongersQuote:SpockstQuote:DragonboyQuote:Big daddy 3
still no sigh of Mr Grayson
just mind blowing what on earth is going on behind the senes ?
the club needs to make an announcement regarding our number 10
Why
The ‘club’ don’t need to say anything. Good luck to James.
No, they don't "need" to, but it highlights an arrogance, that suggests they don't think it relevant or important. Well it is - to many supporters. Who pay their wages.
To have had him on the bench and not play him - as other subs were - for the past two games smacks of childishness.
Much of the criticism of the game we are playing at the moment, is down to those coaches. If they cannot behave like adults, why should the players?
And why should we give them any slack on the forums?
We lost by a point to a team that I thought would physically dominate us - they didn't, so I take some encouragement from that. Having said that, it's a long time since I've been so depressed by the state of our rugby performance. The Boyd experiment has failed. I'd release him now and let the new team get on with it. Not going to happen though - wouldn't fit the Boardroom narrative that the whole thing has been a success!
Boyd and many of the coaches should no longer be in place after this season but they will be as following a flawed board strategy.
They have had 4 years and nothing indicates we are going to improve above mid table.
They have had 4 years and nothing indicates we are going to improve above mid table.
Quote:I agree and thought the same thing going into the match. But, frankly, having watched just the 2nd half, this is a game Saints should have won. Early in the 2nd half Saints were deep in Sale territory and continued their usual overwhelming compulsion to continue to offload and had three knock-ons in just two or three minutes which were due to a lack of composure and patience. At least one would have led to a try or perhaps just some points. Then giving up the last Sale try on a Garryowen chased only by Faf was an error we usually wouldn't see at U18 level. In other words, the loss is completely on us.Statesman
We lost by a point to a team that I thought would physically dominate us - they didn't, so I take some encouragement from that. Having said that, it's a long time since I've been so depressed by the state of our rugby performance. The Boyd experiment has failed. I'd release him now and let the new team get on with it. Not going to happen though - wouldn't fit the Boardroom narrative that the whole thing has been a success!
I also agree Boyd should bow out early so we can start the real transition to the new(ish) team. It must have been easier for him to be successful as a coach with Conrad Smith in the centres.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:20:12:34:45 by Saint Gordo.
Quote:Walks11
Until we mathematically have no chance of top 4 we are not in realms of ‘giving people a game’ for whatever reason. I’m sure the club, coaches and players have not given up on this season as you seem to have
Didn’t seem to do us any harm playing manny yesterday. If anything the game turned when we brought hill and painter on. Too many players are doing the bare minimum at the moment because there is no real risk of being dropped. Sleights has scored 1 try in 11 and has been really off the pace this year. Would playing dani or josh on the wing be any worse? It would probably give sleights a kick of the @#$%& or maybe it wouldn’t do anything as our passing and handling is so bad it would never make it to the wing regardless.
Quote:Saints AdvocateQuote:Walks11
Until we mathematically have no chance of top 4 we are not in realms of ‘giving people a game’ for whatever reason. I’m sure the club, coaches and players have not given up on this season as you seem to have
Didn’t seem to do us any harm playing manny yesterday. If anything the game turned when we brought hill and painter on. Too many players are doing the bare minimum at the moment because there is no real risk of being dropped. Sleights has scored 1 try in 11 and has been really off the pace this year. Would playing dani or josh on the wing be any worse? It would probably give sleights a kick of the @#$%& or maybe it wouldn’t do anything as our passing and handling is so bad it would never make it to the wing regardless.
I’d suggest he wasn’t picked just to give him a game and experience, selected on merit. And justified
With this current squad and our style of play we will unfortunately be a mid table team. On our day we will look amazing and put any team away but lack of bulk and not being a streetwise team will hold us back. Need to freshen up squad. Players I think out of contract end of year will we miss any of them?
Big t- way to much money for what he gives back
Francis - always injured
Tuala- confidence is gone , very vulnerable at the back
Harrison - not the player he was
Wood- can we get better for what he's on?
All hookers apart from matevesi- simply not good enough
Big t- way to much money for what he gives back
Francis - always injured
Tuala- confidence is gone , very vulnerable at the back
Harrison - not the player he was
Wood- can we get better for what he's on?
All hookers apart from matevesi- simply not good enough
Quote:Saints AdvocateQuote:Walks11
Until we mathematically have no chance of top 4 we are not in realms of ‘giving people a game’ for whatever reason. I’m sure the club, coaches and players have not given up on this season as you seem to have
Didn’t seem to do us any harm playing manny yesterday. If anything the game turned when we brought hill and painter on. Too many players are doing the bare minimum at the moment because there is no real risk of being dropped. Sleights has scored 1 try in 11 and has been really off the pace this year. Would playing dani or josh on the wing be any worse? It would probably give sleights a kick of the @#$%& or maybe it wouldn’t do anything as our passing and handling is so bad it would never make it to the wing regardless.
Painter was on from the start and was replaced by Hill
Quote:Saint dolph
With this current squad and our style of play we will unfortunately be a mid table team. On our day we will look amazing and put any team away but lack of bulk and not being a streetwise team will hold us back. Need to freshen up squad. Players I think out of contract end of year will we miss any of them?
Big t- way to much money for what he gives back
Francis - always injured
Tuala- confidence is gone , very vulnerable at the back
Harrison - not the player he was
Wood- can we get better for what he's on?
All hookers apart from matevesi- simply not good enough
Prove to me how much Big T is earning
I was under the impression that our three most expensive players, in terms of salary, were Biggar, Lawes and Big T. Dan and Courts spend vast amounts of time being unavailable due to International call-ups and enforced downtime whilst Taquele has not featured since the pre-season friendly at Goldington Road. Value for money - discuss !!!
I just want to see proof of players earnings
Lots of comments over their value etc but no one able to substantiate with proof of what any player is earning
As big T has been injured for some time I would think his insurance is presently paying him not the club
Lots of comments over their value etc but no one able to substantiate with proof of what any player is earning
As big T has been injured for some time I would think his insurance is presently paying him not the club
Quote:Dave Jackson
A 12 at 15
A 15 at 10
A winger in Centre
A fly halt getting splinters on bench.
Reminds when I got a plumber mate to do a bit of plastering for me - didn't end well; right man for the job?
Quote:Deesaint
I just want to see proof of players earnings
Lots of comments over their value etc but no one able to substantiate with proof of what any player is earning
As big T has been injured for some time I would think his insurance is presently paying him not the club
Could someone please explain how the insurance works when players get injured with regards the cap and our costs. Also what are the implications for when players are away at internationals. Thank you, appreciate it.
Furbank, Mitchell and Hutchinson arguably had very average games. Plus playing out of positions felt uncomfortable! Add to that the fact that we could not penetrate their defence... and yet we didn't replace the scrum half or the stand off. I felt we needed new ideas and a bit of an X Factor..... but it didn't come.
Grayson cut a desolate, lonely figure practising kicks at half time. Lomani probably went for a bath!
I'm afraid I am sinking into despair now with some of the decisions ......
Grayson cut a desolate, lonely figure practising kicks at half time. Lomani probably went for a bath!
I'm afraid I am sinking into despair now with some of the decisions ......
Even Marcus Smith would probably struggle to create anything with our platform.
Quote:ajack
https://rugbydome.com/northampton-saints-player-salaries/
Not proof but seems about right with what is reported .
That's an interesting little piece.
If that article is correct and Big T earning more than Courtney
Big if as it doesn’t add up
Then I would wonder why
Who thought that was a good idea
Big if as it doesn’t add up
Then I would wonder why
Who thought that was a good idea
The numbers quoted in the article are those that have been bandied about for some time.
Courtney is a Saints ‘legend’ and a one club man - I don’t begrudge him a penny.
Biggs is another matter. lovely chap and seemingly dedicated to the cause but that salary is only justified if he is making the difference between winning silverware and being runners up - as I write we are ninth in the table.
Big T is, as Dee suggests, probably covered under insurance for long term injury. Personally I have found him a disappointment on the field after what was an encouraging start.
Courtney is a Saints ‘legend’ and a one club man - I don’t begrudge him a penny.
Biggs is another matter. lovely chap and seemingly dedicated to the cause but that salary is only justified if he is making the difference between winning silverware and being runners up - as I write we are ninth in the table.
Big T is, as Dee suggests, probably covered under insurance for long term injury. Personally I have found him a disappointment on the field after what was an encouraging start.
Quote:SpockstQuote:Deesaint
I just want to see proof of players earnings
Lots of comments over their value etc but no one able to substantiate with proof of what any player is earning
As big T has been injured for some time I would think his insurance is presently paying him not the club
Could someone please explain how the insurance works when players get injured with regards the cap and our costs. Also what are the implications for when players are away at internationals. Thank you, appreciate it.
I don’t know how the Insurance works for professional rugby players but my guess is that long term injury is covered whereas short term is not. The crossover point is probably policy specific ie the shorter the period the higher the premium. I wouldn’t be surprised if the norm was 1 year. So Big T may well be covered.
I was under the impression that the RFU have in place Insurance which covers players who are injured whilst away on International duty but again I don’t know the detail.
From a Cap perspective an injured player is defined as out for 12+ weeks. The club is allowed to replace that player on no greater salary. The total of all such replacements for the year can’t exceed £400k - which coincidentally means that if the rumours are true we could have replaced Big T with Big T mark II and remained within the Cap!
We get credits for England International players. It’s a bit complicated but for nailed on players like CL we get £40k plus £5k per match missed. For peripheral players like LL we get £10k per match missed. Total credit for the year can’t exceed £400k.
We also get credits for home grown players up to £50k per player and subject to a total maximum of £600k.
I’ve simplified the above so those interested in the precise working will need to look at the SCR’s on the PRL website.
Quote:Deesaint
I just want to see proof of players earnings
Lots of comments over their value etc but no one able to substantiate with proof of what any player is earning
As big T has been injured for some time I would think his insurance is presently paying him not the club
How about telling us how much you earn Deesaint as you seem to think that peoples earnings should be public property
What gives you the right to expect this information?
Once again a game lost on poor skills.
We can keep at this game style all we want, but it’s pointless without better technical skills.
Balls thrown around ankles, stupid passing into players that are vulnerable, basic lineouts that are a mile off, and knock ons aplenty.
It’s painful. I love the ambition, as I think we all do, but it’s a waste of time if this squad of largely very talented chaps are not being coached on their basic skills.
Proctor is about the only one who has the ability to do what we need, and I guess that’s largely innate. For the rest of them, they need to work at it with some proper teaching and support. Like every other @#$%& club in the premiership.
We can keep at this game style all we want, but it’s pointless without better technical skills.
Balls thrown around ankles, stupid passing into players that are vulnerable, basic lineouts that are a mile off, and knock ons aplenty.
It’s painful. I love the ambition, as I think we all do, but it’s a waste of time if this squad of largely very talented chaps are not being coached on their basic skills.
Proctor is about the only one who has the ability to do what we need, and I guess that’s largely innate. For the rest of them, they need to work at it with some proper teaching and support. Like every other @#$%& club in the premiership.
Quote:Deesaint
Oh dear oh dear
Completely misread the thread
No surprise
“I just want to see proof of players earnings”
How have I misread the thread. Peoples earnings are their business. You want to to see them.
In fact let’s just agree to disagree.
To be honest this was a far better performance particularly from the pack. We lost because Hutch didn't take control of the ball at the back. I personally don't blame the coaches - he played ok last week at full back and he's had time to practice he just didn't execute. If they pick him there again and it happens again though... Today he had an off game and unfortunately the bad luck was that cost us 14 points.
I also don't blame the decision at the end. I would have gone to the corner but you could see Furbank wanted to kick it and he'd kicked one earlier from almost that spot. Again bad luck and if it had gone the other way we'd be feeling quite differently and that perhaps theres a chance for us this season.
As others have said though the reality is we still should have won the game and we would have done if we had better ball carriers: we would have created more chances from all our possession and taken more chances.
It's a real shame to see players like Harrison and Sleights drop so much in form- that does seem like a coaching issue?
Finally I just don't understand why Waller comes on and takes over captaincy - in my opinion he's our worst player in the 23 almost every week and his commitment and behavior seem consistently off. Couldn't we give it to Ribbans, Augustus or Proctor to at least reward the kind of commitment and work rate we're looking for?
I do think most of the forwards deserve real credit though - that is a hell of a turnaround from the Leicester game where the pack was so poor - unfortunately it just wasn't enough.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:20:21:59:03 by Saintfanh.
I also don't blame the decision at the end. I would have gone to the corner but you could see Furbank wanted to kick it and he'd kicked one earlier from almost that spot. Again bad luck and if it had gone the other way we'd be feeling quite differently and that perhaps theres a chance for us this season.
As others have said though the reality is we still should have won the game and we would have done if we had better ball carriers: we would have created more chances from all our possession and taken more chances.
It's a real shame to see players like Harrison and Sleights drop so much in form- that does seem like a coaching issue?
Finally I just don't understand why Waller comes on and takes over captaincy - in my opinion he's our worst player in the 23 almost every week and his commitment and behavior seem consistently off. Couldn't we give it to Ribbans, Augustus or Proctor to at least reward the kind of commitment and work rate we're looking for?
I do think most of the forwards deserve real credit though - that is a hell of a turnaround from the Leicester game where the pack was so poor - unfortunately it just wasn't enough.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:20:21:59:03 by Saintfanh.
Quote:shiversaint
Once again a game lost on poor skills.
We can keep at this game style all we want, but it’s pointless without better technical skills.
Balls thrown around ankles, stupid passing into players that are vulnerable, basic lineouts that are a mile off, and knock ons aplenty.
It’s painful. I love the ambition, as I think we all do, but it’s a waste of time if this squad of largely very talented chaps are not being coached on their basic skills.
Proctor is about the only one who has the ability to do what we need, and I guess that’s largely innate. For the rest of them, they need to work at it with some proper teaching and support. Like every other @#$%& club in the premiership.
Not arguing with the much of your post, but iirc there was just one lineout that went wrong, an overthrown one near the Sale line in the second half.
Quote:StatesmanQuote:SpockstQuote:Deesaint
I just want to see proof of players earnings
Lots of comments over their value etc but no one able to substantiate with proof of what any player is earning
As big T has been injured for some time I would think his insurance is presently paying him not the club
Could someone please explain how the insurance works when players get injured with regards the cap and our costs. Also what are the implications for when players are away at internationals. Thank you, appreciate it.
I don’t know how the Insurance works for professional rugby players but my guess is that long term injury is covered whereas short term is not. The crossover point is probably policy specific ie the shorter the period the higher the premium. I wouldn’t be surprised if the norm was 1 year. So Big T may well be covered.
I was under the impression that the RFU have in place Insurance which covers players who are injured whilst away on International duty but again I don’t know the detail.
From a Cap perspective an injured player is defined as out for 12+ weeks. The club is allowed to replace that player on no greater salary. The total of all such replacements for the year can’t exceed £400k - which coincidentally means that if the rumours are true we could have replaced Big T with Big T mark II and remained within the Cap!
We get credits for England International players. It’s a bit complicated but for nailed on players like CL we get £40k plus £5k per match missed. For peripheral players like LL we get £10k per match missed. Total credit for the year can’t exceed £400k.
We also get credits for home grown players up to £50k per player and subject to a total maximum of £600k.
I’ve simplified the above so those interested in the precise working will need to look at the SCR’s on the PRL website.
Thank you
Earnings are widely available in other salary capped sports, the IPL even uses them as a marketing exercise
So we're in 9th. I recall looking before the season started and the norm for bookies, pundits and fans of other teams was placing us about 8th.
I had us down for 4th at the start of the season. Hopefully we will start to look better as the pitches firm up and the weather improves. But 8th looks about right for how we are currently playing sadly.
I had us down for 4th at the start of the season. Hopefully we will start to look better as the pitches firm up and the weather improves. But 8th looks about right for how we are currently playing sadly.
Quote:Awaywin
Does anyone else think we repeatedly fail to use advantage? It’s is either aimlessly kicked away (similar to most of our kicking game) or lack something creating that would give us a chance of scoring. I thought this was epitomised by Waller not paying attention when we had the final penalty. Surely you use the advantage to go through the phases with the aim of getting a second and more lockable penalty?
Just another example of poor decision making and game management.
This, coupled with poor basic skills will continue to be our undoing and has been an issue that we have failed to address for quite some time.
9th. We are lucky the 3 teams below us are a fair distance and show no form either. Points over next few weeks are going to be hard to come by. 4th was never realistic with Boyd. He just needs to go but the club give him a consulting position so coaches are undermined further. The board are way to comfortable.
Furbank will be back next week as little chance of playing 10 for England.
Weekend game reflects last few years. Be interesting to see who is playing out of position next week and then hear Boyd saying it unfortunate we made a couple of errors which cost us.
Question is which team will turn up next week. 🤔
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:21:09:12:08 by Rugbyman01.
Furbank will be back next week as little chance of playing 10 for England.
Weekend game reflects last few years. Be interesting to see who is playing out of position next week and then hear Boyd saying it unfortunate we made a couple of errors which cost us.
Question is which team will turn up next week. 🤔
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:21:09:12:08 by Rugbyman01.
Quote:Rugbyman01
....... Boyd saying it unfortunate we made a couple of errors which cost us......
Was he honest enough to indicate that they were selection errors?
Or did he just blame the players for whom he has ultimate responsibility (but apparently little accountability).
I know its not much to hang onto but if we win our "game in hand" we would move back to 5th. Just a couple of points behind Gloucester
Quote:LongersQuote:Rugbyman01
....... Boyd saying it unfortunate we made a couple of errors which cost us......
Was he honest enough to indicate that they were selection errors?
Or did he just blame the players for whom he has ultimate responsibility (but apparently little accountability).
Boyd and the coaches have long since disconnected themselves from the teams performance. Many of the players must despair at the coaches approach/results but speaking up unless along the Clubs Narrative is probably not encouraged from top down.
Maybe that's where Grayson sits.
Strange how people are still saying we lost the game due to underpowered forwards. We scored two tries through the pack and one excellent one through the backs.
They scored none through their forwards, one well constructed pressure try through the backs and two total gifts because one of the backs playing out of position was very poor under the high ball and didn't really have the skill set to play there.
Still if we knock the forwards again and claim we need a new set that should sort the problem out.
They scored none through their forwards, one well constructed pressure try through the backs and two total gifts because one of the backs playing out of position was very poor under the high ball and didn't really have the skill set to play there.
Still if we knock the forwards again and claim we need a new set that should sort the problem out.
Just for the sake of balance....
- As Chris notes, we have a game in hand and the table is very close 4-9th.
- Sleightholme I think is a hell of a player but is just back from a pretty nasty injury, without Wandies/LV etc he probably needs gametime, he couldn't stop scoring pre-injury and also brought some 'dog'
- Big T's injury is very unfortunate, I think with him fit and firing the smaller centres are less of an issue
- I think there will be some wariness about overplaying Manny and to a lesser extent Painter, I agree they've been the form props so far
This isn't to say I don't agree with any of the above, I'm also frustrated about results, or more accurately performances. I just subscribe to that adage that you're never as goog as they say when you're winning and never as bad when losing (or words to that effect!).
I think we're a decent team and I think Boyd has done a lot of good since he's been here.
- As Chris notes, we have a game in hand and the table is very close 4-9th.
- Sleightholme I think is a hell of a player but is just back from a pretty nasty injury, without Wandies/LV etc he probably needs gametime, he couldn't stop scoring pre-injury and also brought some 'dog'
- Big T's injury is very unfortunate, I think with him fit and firing the smaller centres are less of an issue
- I think there will be some wariness about overplaying Manny and to a lesser extent Painter, I agree they've been the form props so far
This isn't to say I don't agree with any of the above, I'm also frustrated about results, or more accurately performances. I just subscribe to that adage that you're never as goog as they say when you're winning and never as bad when losing (or words to that effect!).
I think we're a decent team and I think Boyd has done a lot of good since he's been here.
@leicester Saint
I totally accept everyone’s frustrations on this site including my own I would have thought this is why this site is in existence
We are not completely out of the running as pointed out above and if we can build on the game against Sale and see a couple of back to back wins it will be a different picture
Let’s see how we get on next week
Chiefs are beatable
I just wonder if any of the posters above where parachuted in to get saints back on the winning track
What would they do ?
Thoughts
I totally accept everyone’s frustrations on this site including my own I would have thought this is why this site is in existence
We are not completely out of the running as pointed out above and if we can build on the game against Sale and see a couple of back to back wins it will be a different picture
Let’s see how we get on next week
Chiefs are beatable
I just wonder if any of the posters above where parachuted in to get saints back on the winning track
What would they do ?
Thoughts
Quote:Rugbyman01
9th. We are lucky the 3 teams below us are a fair distance and show no form either. Points over next few weeks are going to be hard to come by. 4th was never realistic with Boyd. He just needs to go but the club give him a consulting position so coaches are undermined further. The board are way to comfortable.
Furbank will be back next week as little chance of playing 10 for England.
Weekend game reflects last few years. Be interesting to see who is playing out of position next week and then hear Boyd saying it unfortunate we made a couple of errors which cost us.
Question is which team will turn up next week. 🤔
Playing ‘in position’ doesn’t stop errors. We dropped too many balls against Sale, that’s down to conditions, defensive pressure slight drop off in concentration or all of these. Playing in your usual position doesn’t suddenly rectify this, we should have won comfortably had it not been for this so selection is a bit of a moot point imo. It didn’t cost us the game
On the Grayson selection conundrum, he has had plenty of opportunity over the last few years and I like most wanted him to succeed, he showed promise but has failed to really kick on to the next level. His contract is apparently up at the end of this season and we don’t know what is going on behind the scenes. He may well have decided to look elsewhere and this in part maybe the reason we are now playing Furbank at 10. Why not give game time to a back up in that position over someone who is leaving. It would make more sense if this were the case. Imo it’s swings and roundabouts who you pick at 10 between the 2, Grayson offers a more measured game but lacks the running threat and instinct of Furbank. The conundrum is by picking Furbank and no Freeman available it leaves us exposed at FB. I think if we had been ahead into the last quarter we would have seen Grayson come on to close the game out
It's an interesting question Deesaints, I think some DORs/coaches are naturally more suited to a 'rescue' scenario, others a more long term strategy.
For example I think Diamond will have some initial success at Worcester at the least. EJ was always in that mould and some would argue he still is!
At this stage it looks like Borthwick is managing both at Tigers, pretty quick improvement in results as well as building culture, youth coming through etc. Perhaps had the benefit of taking what worked at Sarries, what worked with EJ at England and noting what didn't in both camps and making a new mix.
If Boyd was looking at continuing coaching back in NZ I'd argue he's going back a much more rounded coach/DOR.
For example I think Diamond will have some initial success at Worcester at the least. EJ was always in that mould and some would argue he still is!
At this stage it looks like Borthwick is managing both at Tigers, pretty quick improvement in results as well as building culture, youth coming through etc. Perhaps had the benefit of taking what worked at Sarries, what worked with EJ at England and noting what didn't in both camps and making a new mix.
If Boyd was looking at continuing coaching back in NZ I'd argue he's going back a much more rounded coach/DOR.
Quote:Walks11Quote:Rugbyman01
9th. We are lucky the 3 teams below us are a fair distance and show no form either. Points over next few weeks are going to be hard to come by. 4th was never realistic with Boyd. He just needs to go but the club give him a consulting position so coaches are undermined further. The board are way to comfortable.
Furbank will be back next week as little chance of playing 10 for England.
Weekend game reflects last few years. Be interesting to see who is playing out of position next week and then hear Boyd saying it unfortunate we made a couple of errors which cost us.
Question is which team will turn up next week. 🤔
Playing ‘in position’ doesn’t stop errors. We dropped too many balls against Sale, that’s down to conditions, defensive pressure slight drop off in concentration or all of these. Playing in your usual position doesn’t suddenly rectify this, we should have won comfortably had it not been for this so selection is a bit of a moot point imo. It didn’t cost us the game
Playing players out of position increases the risks that errors will happen - it's only natural, they need to do stuff they don't normally do, in positions they're not normally in. Hutch failed to catch 3 high balls (actually failed to touch one of them when uncontested!) and 2 of those cost us 14 points. Of course, playing Hutch out of position at 15 didn't cost us the game but imo it was a significant contributing factor.
Quote:Deesaint
@leicester Saint
I totally accept everyone’s frustrations on this site including my own I would have thought this is why this site is in existence
We are not completely out of the running as pointed out above and if we can build on the game against Sale and see a couple of back to back wins it will be a different picture
Let’s see how we get on next week
Chiefs are beatable
I just wonder if any of the posters above where parachuted in to get saints back on the winning track
What would they do ?
Thoughts
That would be a challenge indeed!
But you would have to go back quite a way to begin to trawl the data. Why have we (apparently) gone backwards in some areas?
I was listening to Katherine Grainger talking about the low return on investment from the Winter Olympics. How they would look over the performances and analyse what went wrong. No small task.
Do we take that approach on a Monday? Do we tally up the number of penalties one individual player gives away? The number of bad passes shipped on? Or dropped?
I have banged on about this approach for yonks. It's basic structured management. Nothing clever. I do not need to be a Sports scientist to ask my coaches if we are where we should be in terms of fitness. The data they provide will tell me. Ditto "getting back into the game from a tackle".
And on it goes. Today it would be a long list. It would go all the way down to the Academy as well, as players there would be subject to the same rigorous challenges.
The infuriating thing, is that it is not exceptional nor is it not suited to rugby. When I was working in Motor Sport, we had exactly the same discussions - why are we not 1st or 2nd or 3rd or whatever.
Dave Brailsford was given the credit for the benefit from "marginal gains" but it has gone on in sport for a very long time, and we need to get on board. PDQ
Quote:LongersQuote:Deesaint
@leicester Saint
I totally accept everyone’s frustrations on this site including my own I would have thought this is why this site is in existence
We are not completely out of the running as pointed out above and if we can build on the game against Sale and see a couple of back to back wins it will be a different picture
Let’s see how we get on next week
Chiefs are beatable
I just wonder if any of the posters above where parachuted in to get saints back on the winning track
What would they do ?
Thoughts
That would be a challenge indeed!
But you would have to go back quite a way to begin to trawl the data. Why have we (apparently) gone backwards in some areas?
I was listening to Katherine Grainger talking about the low return on investment from the Winter Olympics. How they would look over the performances and analyse what went wrong. No small task.
Do we take that approach on a Monday? Do we tally up the number of penalties one individual player gives away? The number of bad passes shipped on? Or dropped?
I have banged on about this approach for yonks. It's basic structured management. Nothing clever. I do not need to be a Sports scientist to ask my coaches if we are where we should be in terms of fitness. The data they provide will tell me. Ditto "getting back into the game from a tackle".
And on it goes. Today it would be a long list. It would go all the way down to the Academy as well, as players there would be subject to the same rigorous challenges.
The infuriating thing, is that it is not exceptional nor is it not suited to rugby. When I was working in Motor Sport, we had exactly the same discussions - why are we not 1st or 2nd or 3rd or whatever.
Dave Brailsford was given the credit for the
benefit from "margin
al gains" but it has gone on in sport for a very long time, and we need to get on board. PDQ
are you seriously suggesting this is not done every week? They all wear GPS monitors, so of course all data is analysed otherwise why wear them, I'm pretty sure this is not restricted to matchdays either. Fitness levels, collisions, speed to get back in game, completed passes, errors, penalties conceded, etc, etc. most of the basic stuff is available for everyone to view so am pretty sure this is forensically analysed week in week out. Ive sat next to the coaches at times during games and they are constantly looking at the last line out, the last scrum, the last breakdown. Replacements certainly in the forwards are largely driven by data these days looking for drop offs in movement around the field, tackles, etc. I would also hope that most if not all at an individual level are analysing their own performance and discussing with coaches on the what or how to improve. So in summary i'm 100% certain this is happening.. its the what you do with it in terms of who to pick, how to improve, how to eradicate errors is probably the crux of it and how this translates to the training field. bear in mind we are not dealing with machines. And of course then there is analysis of the opposition to take into account too and formulating a game plan for the following week to exploit any potential weaknesses. I'm sure spending a week in camp would be quite enlightening for all of us to see the amount of work that goes in
From the Club website for context..
ANALYSIS
HEAD OF ANALYSIS Ross Appleton
ANALYST Alex Norris
ACADEMY ANALYST Josh Biggs
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:21:11:54:07 by Walks11.
Quote:Walks11
....are you seriously suggesting this is not done every week?......
No, but I am seriously questioning the outcomes? How else does one start to argue over the "serial offenders"?
[quote LeicesterSaint]Just for the sake of balance....
- Sleightholme I think is a hell of a player but is just back from a pretty nasty injury, without Wandies/LV etc he probably needs gametime, he couldn't stop scoring pre-injury and also brought some 'dog'
One thing for sure is Sleights has support of coaches despite being injured alot and form not great. Never been on loan as a young player unlike many players despite being injured for long periods. Should be on loan to regain form, not in 1st team. Other players like Nansen, Wilkes etc have had to play at Bedford to gain form but not Sleights.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:21:13:03:35 by Rugbyman01.
- Sleightholme I think is a hell of a player but is just back from a pretty nasty injury, without Wandies/LV etc he probably needs gametime, he couldn't stop scoring pre-injury and also brought some 'dog'
One thing for sure is Sleights has support of coaches despite being injured alot and form not great. Never been on loan as a young player unlike many players despite being injured for long periods. Should be on loan to regain form, not in 1st team. Other players like Nansen, Wilkes etc have had to play at Bedford to gain form but not Sleights.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:02:21:13:03:35 by Rugbyman01.
The one aspect of our game that is consistently poor is the kick/catch. We just don’t seem to be able to deliver the right kick depth and chase so we end up conceding territory, similarly, when defending the high ball we seem to allow the opposition to dominate and don’t get possession. We seem to have only one world class catcher in Dan Biggar, maybe Tommy Freeman is OK but by and large our back three are poorer than the opposition week in week out.
I think our best restart play is Dan to Courtney on the oppo 22. Without them we just seem to kick it deep and jog up the pitch. I think generally only Piers ever really chases hard. I’d like to see more focus on these basic skills because they are coachable!
I think our best restart play is Dan to Courtney on the oppo 22. Without them we just seem to kick it deep and jog up the pitch. I think generally only Piers ever really chases hard. I’d like to see more focus on these basic skills because they are coachable!
Quote:ajack
Strange how people are still saying we lost the game due to underpowered forwards. We scored two tries through the pack and one excellent one through the backs.
They scored none through their forwards, one well constructed pressure try through the backs and two total gifts because one of the backs playing out of position was very poor under the high ball and didn't really have the skill set to play there.
Still if we knock the forwards again and claim we need a new set that should sort the problem out.
Ball carrying. The maul and scrum worked well, kudos to the young props. Phase after phase going nowhere. Phase after phase on their 5m line unable to get over. Sale forwards are, to a man, bigger and more physical.
Quote:SpockstQuote:ajack
Strange how people are still saying we lost the game due to underpowered forwards. We scored two tries through the pack and one excellent one through the backs.
They scored none through their forwards, one well constructed pressure try through the backs and two total gifts because one of the backs playing out of position was very poor under the high ball and didn't really have the skill set to play there.
Still if we knock the forwards again and claim we need a new set that should sort the problem out.
Ball carrying. The maul and scrum worked well, kudos to the young props. Phase after phase going nowhere. Phase after phase on their 5m line unable to get over. Sale forwards are, to a man, bigger and more physical.
But yet we got over their line twice through the forwards whilst the bigger more powerful Sale forwards dint cross ours. Two of our three tries came from our forwards two of their three tries came from a basic mistake in our backs.
You are right the forwards did well in some of the key areas but I think that ball carrying ability and set piece/mauls are separate facets of the game. Ball carrying includes the entire 15, but largely comes down to the forwards to get over the gain line because, well, they’re just bigger blokes. Ball carrying and set piece responsibility even fall under different coaches. We lost the collisions as we do pretty much every week, it’s a serious problem which needs addressing, R92 game was the most extreme example of it.
Quote
Playing players out of position increases the risks that errors will happen - it's only natural, they need to do stuff they don't normally do, in positions they're not normally in. Hutch failed to catch 3 high balls (actually failed to touch one of them when uncontested!) and 2 of those cost us 14 points. Of course, playing Hutch out of position at 15 didn't cost us the game but imo it was a significant contributing factor.
Just watched the game in full and to be fair to Hutch., you are wrong to say he cost us points. Clearly he jumps up from a standing position, and the Sale winger is running flat out as he jumps going forward. They both have their eye on the ball, and both get their hands on the ball, but the Sale player has the advantage of considerable forward motion. Normally the runner knocks on but to his credit he didn’t.
Playing players out of position increases the risks that errors will happen - it's only natural, they need to do stuff they don't normally do, in positions they're not normally in. Hutch failed to catch 3 high balls (actually failed to touch one of them when uncontested!) and 2 of those cost us 14 points. Of course, playing Hutch out of position at 15 didn't cost us the game but imo it was a significant contributing factor.
Just watched the game in full and to be fair to Hutch., you are wrong to say he cost us points. Clearly he jumps up from a standing position, and the Sale winger is running flat out as he jumps going forward. They both have their eye on the ball, and both get their hands on the ball, but the Sale player has the advantage of considerable forward motion. Normally the runner knocks on but to his credit he didn’t.
Hutch jumped from a standing position
However he was sideways on
He didn’t own the space or control the area
He left a big hole for the attacker to jump into
On the whole it wasn’t the play that you see from fullbacks week in week out
But then he isn’t a fullback
However he was sideways on
He didn’t own the space or control the area
He left a big hole for the attacker to jump into
On the whole it wasn’t the play that you see from fullbacks week in week out
But then he isn’t a fullback
In fairness it was a very windy day but Hutch clearly misjudged the flight of the ball slightly - he initially came in looking confident but then had to check and ended up jumping from a standstill straight up, never ideal. By contrast whether through luck or skill the Sale lad timed it to absolute perfection.
Would a full time or out and out 15 have definitely caught it? Maybe but I don't think there are any guarantees.
Would a full time or out and out 15 have definitely caught it? Maybe but I don't think there are any guarantees.
Quote:LeicesterSaint
In fairness it was a very windy day but Hutch clearly misjudged the flight of the ball slightly - he initially came in looking confident but then had to check and ended up jumping from a standstill straight up, never ideal. By contrast whether through luck or skill the Sale lad timed it to absolute perfection.
Would a full time or out and out 15 have definitely caught it? Maybe but I don't think there are any guarantees.
Hutch did not lose us the game. At least I don't think he did.
But he did make two significant errors that helped Sale. Would a "more accomplished" Full Back have done any better? We cannot know.
But much of what we do is instinctive - down to NLP. We do not pause to think when changing gear in our car. We do it "automatically". And a sportsman is no different.
A Full Back's job is made more easy by knowing where to position himself. And how to communicate with those around him. I think Hutch's positioning on a couple or more occasions was poor. As was his interaction with those around him.
I still come back to the thought that we are a stronger unit with JG at 10 and George at 15. Whether one individual is better or worse than the other, is irrelevant. The Unit is better. That's before we start playing others out of position!
To extend the car analogy a lot is judgement, judgement of the flight of the ball, your speed, position on the pitch etc, just as in a car we all (well, most) judge similar all the time without thinking. How many of us have driven a left-hand drive car? You can still do it but everything takes a split second longer to process. Pootling along normally it makes no difference but in bad weather, higher speeds etc it can make the difference.
An out and out fullback with have taken so many more high balls in training and other games. Likewise the main kickers vs someone like Francis who can do a job but won't have anywhere near the experience. On that note however it looked like Furbank did pretty well from the tee considering the conditions?
Ps. without wanting to stir up the past it wasn't so long ago there was criticism of Furbank under the high ball as our first choice 15..... for me he's not bad but doesn't quite inspire the confidence of some.
An out and out fullback with have taken so many more high balls in training and other games. Likewise the main kickers vs someone like Francis who can do a job but won't have anywhere near the experience. On that note however it looked like Furbank did pretty well from the tee considering the conditions?
Ps. without wanting to stir up the past it wasn't so long ago there was criticism of Furbank under the high ball as our first choice 15..... for me he's not bad but doesn't quite inspire the confidence of some.
JG and GF may be a better combination now but one can only assume the coaches think that TF and GF is a better combination in a years time
I also wonder whether DB has had input into that, one would again assume so given his seniority and experience playing that position
I also wonder whether DB has had input into that, one would again assume so given his seniority and experience playing that position
There are always multiple reasons you win or lose a game, however if you gift the opposition 14 points you are going to lose far more than you win.
Strangely I don't think anyone has posted that Furbank should have been substituted for the last kick of the game. That would have been a statement.
Quote:Santiago
Strangely I don't think anyone has posted that Furbank should have been substituted for the last kick of the game. That would have been a statement.
He couldn't be
We do seem to have history in not picking players we know are leaving and if the rumours shared here are true that could explain why JG and FL are only making the squad when there’s no other option. I think this happened with FVW last year as well when he seemed the form 1
Quote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Santiago
Strangely I don't think anyone has posted that Furbank should have been substituted for the last kick of the game. That would have been a statement.
He couldn't be
Why not? The ball was dead and there was an unused substitute on the bench.
Quote:SantiagoQuote:SaintsDuncanQuote:Santiago
Strangely I don't think anyone has posted that Furbank should have been substituted for the last kick of the game. That would have been a statement.
He couldn't be
Why not? The ball was dead and there was an unused substitute on the bench.
The penalty was awarded, but the ball wasn't dead.
Furbank had 3/3 and the England euros penalty balls up shows the problem with bringing in players cold to kick. Also, JG is not infallible at kicking for goal.
Quote:SaintsDuncan
The penalty was awarded, but the ball wasn't dead.
I'd assumed the ball went dead when the penalty was awarded. Obviously wrongly. It would be simpler if subs were abolished!
Quote:SantiagoQuote:SaintsDuncan
The penalty was awarded, but the ball wasn't dead.
I'd assumed the ball went dead when the penalty was awarded. Obviously wrongly. It would be simpler if subs were abolished!
LOL Rugby is a simple game huh? 😀
I also seem to recall a Scotland match where a player went off injured with a kick pending and his replacement came on but was not allowed to take the kick as he was not on the field of play when the kick was awarded
Didn't something similar happen in the last Wales game? Biggar was being replaced by Sheedy with a penalty kick (to touch) pending. Biggar, Sheedy and an official then had a conversation on the touch line at which point Biggar came back on, took the kick and then went off. The commentators didn't know what was going on, neither did I - but perhaps now I do!
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