Harlequins
The Good & The Bad: Quins v Saracens
By Battering Ram Winger
September 20 2009
In a new series of articles we will get Battering Ram Winger's thoughts on the good and the bad after each match, here's his first one...
So, my thoughts from yesterday's match, condensed into one easy to read list.
Good
1). Saracens
Credit where credit is due, they did a great job on us. Watching them, the thought that kept springing to mind was "efficient". They don't appear the flashiest of teams but they tick the scoreboard over, compete in every facet of the game and are organised extremely well. Deserved their win.
2). The South Stand
Coming along nicely. I suspect DOK would like construction largely to halt except for the usual barriers to allow him his terracing!
3). The weather
Very nice.
4). Strettle
Excellent throughout, making ground and looking dangerous.
5). Fixture Credit Card
Picked up mine, very useful.
Bad
Oh dear, where to start?
1). Decision making
Woeful again. Kicks when we should have run, offloads when we shouldn't, up the jumper when we should, looking for contact, not space, we seemed to be making it up on the fly and doing badly. Most painful was Clegg, with Ugo and Lowe outside him, probably our two fastest men, with a possible overlap, kicking for position when we needed a try and their lineout was working like, well, clockwork.
2). Creativity
As far as I could tell, just like last week, apart from the odd piece of solo flair, we had none whatsoever. I can't see where a try is coming from for 90% of the time.
3). Failure to take chances
I think we had 3/4 half decent chances to attack their line, either from a setpiece or in open play. Every time we approached their line, we butchered it badly.
4). Failure to use the advantage of 15 vs 14
As usual. Nothing more needs to be said as we are utterly useless at this.
5). Set piece massacre
I know we're missing Kohn and Percival, but that doesn't excuse the shambles of our lineout. Botha's throws are horrid to watch, a slow, loopy lob ripe for Borthwick to pinch/disrupt. It says something when Tani's entrance was a relief for the lineouts.
6). Kick chasing
My theory is that with Ugo at full back and a centre on the wing is what's causing our kick chasing to be so poor - last season, Ugo flew off his wing to compete aerially under Mike Brown's bombs and competed well. Now he's stuck doing the bombs, we've lost that vital edge allowing the opposition all the time they need to return the kick or truck it up.
7). Service
Oh dear, I hate to bag players too much but So'oailo's pass is still miles to slow, there were a few times when we had a sniff of something but but the time it reached Evans, he was shaking hands with the opposition. Gomarsall's crisp passes are a big miss for us.
I don't want to get too down, but we've not improved at all from last week. It appears that we are playing just like we did before a certain disgraced former DOR turned up to add edge, bite, attitude and nous to our gameplan. I hope for better things and some injured players to get fit asap because we don't play Leeds until December.
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Discussion started by ComeAllWithin.co.uk , 20/09/2009 20:01
ComeAllWithin.co.uk
20/09/2009 20:01
20/09/2009 20:01
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Thanks for this BRW.
As usual
I have a few different views.
I didn't think Sarries played well at all, and with their style of gamesmanship especially by the scrum half I can't imagine many opposition fans warming to them over the season. It's a shame as I've always liked Sarries previously.
I would have put Ugo in the plusses one blip aside.
I thought we were better than last week
I thought our scrum went well, they were popping up a lot and White (as usual) didn't seem to have a clue.
I thought So'oialo's pass was good, the ex-players that sit next to me said as much. I think people always have a go at him whatever he does, I thought he was one of the brighter points of the match.
The simple mistakes on basic things was the disappointing thing again, it can't be coaching as we know they can all catch and pass, so it must just be confidence, if they can get a win or two under their belts and get some of the experienced players back from injury I can see the season turning round. I just hope it happens very soon indeed.
The white line fever (no not a dig at Bath) is also a worry, when we get close to the opposition line we seem to panic and lose concentration (and the ball)
As usual
I have a few different views.
I didn't think Sarries played well at all, and with their style of gamesmanship especially by the scrum half I can't imagine many opposition fans warming to them over the season. It's a shame as I've always liked Sarries previously.
I would have put Ugo in the plusses one blip aside.
I thought we were better than last week
I thought our scrum went well, they were popping up a lot and White (as usual) didn't seem to have a clue.
I thought So'oialo's pass was good, the ex-players that sit next to me said as much. I think people always have a go at him whatever he does, I thought he was one of the brighter points of the match.
The simple mistakes on basic things was the disappointing thing again, it can't be coaching as we know they can all catch and pass, so it must just be confidence, if they can get a win or two under their belts and get some of the experienced players back from injury I can see the season turning round. I just hope it happens very soon indeed.
The white line fever (no not a dig at Bath) is also a worry, when we get close to the opposition line we seem to panic and lose concentration (and the ball)
Richards did not plan well for this season! The best bit of your appraisal was about our missing Gommars. KD will be a good cover for DC though. But no pro rugby player should show as little bottle, conviction and intelligence as was shown by a lot of our players yesterday... Nick Evans, especially, hang your head in shame.
Nick Easter... anonymous, slow and cumbersome.
It must be in the name!
Nick Easter... anonymous, slow and cumbersome.
It must be in the name!
Well, yes! I have to admit I looked at the South Stand and thought "a few barriers across that and it'll be perfect"! No need for those horrible seat things!
Luckily enough the lack of any terrace in the South Stand is going to prevent me having to make a horrible decision between my existing wonderfully positioned seat in the West Stand and a terrace in the South.
Sarries were not that great. They just played the kicking game over and over and picked up on our mistakes. Good game plan but rotten rugby to watch.
Strettle, Ugo, Easter, Robshaw, So'oialo all had a good game.
Luckily enough the lack of any terrace in the South Stand is going to prevent me having to make a horrible decision between my existing wonderfully positioned seat in the West Stand and a terrace in the South.
Sarries were not that great. They just played the kicking game over and over and picked up on our mistakes. Good game plan but rotten rugby to watch.
Strettle, Ugo, Easter, Robshaw, So'oialo all had a good game.
BRW, I think you nailed it when you said what we are missing is "edge, bite, attitude and nous to our gameplan." It is this emotional will, desire and fight that seems to missing.
And doesn't this have something to do with having no DOR?
The team seemed ruder-less, especially in the 2nd half.
Skinner also seemed to be lacking leadership at key moments. For example, when Easter lost us 10 metres for back-chat, Skinner just ignored this incident, and didn't have word.
And doesn't this have something to do with having no DOR?
The team seemed ruder-less, especially in the 2nd half.
Skinner also seemed to be lacking leadership at key moments. For example, when Easter lost us 10 metres for back-chat, Skinner just ignored this incident, and didn't have word.
I thought the first half performance was pretty good aside from the lack of points scored. It wasn't exactly a surprise to see frustration get the better of the players after half time, and yes, confidence was definitely a factor from then on. Sarries must have been ecstatic to go in for the break level, but they deserve credit for their very good defence, and their lineout was superb.
The way our fixtures pan out it's going to take a quite special effort not to be in the bottom few by the end of the year, although lets not forget we finished 7th after losing our first 5 games a few years ago. Not that 7th would be satisfactory nowadays.
Tiesi, Care, Brown, Percival and Robson will make a big difference I reckon.
Also, I thought Stevenson did well yesterday (not that I was one of the ones who thought he was rubbish last week).
The way our fixtures pan out it's going to take a quite special effort not to be in the bottom few by the end of the year, although lets not forget we finished 7th after losing our first 5 games a few years ago. Not that 7th would be satisfactory nowadays.
Tiesi, Care, Brown, Percival and Robson will make a big difference I reckon.
Also, I thought Stevenson did well yesterday (not that I was one of the ones who thought he was rubbish last week).
Very good post QP.I thought we had the better of them in the first half-we certainly had the possession and the territory.In the 2nd half we totally over cooked everything(a sure sign of frustration & desperation setting in) before losing JTH & Stretts,2 of the players who had been leading from the front(Stretts especially).The Sarries try was a bit opportunistic & it just sapped us along with the above.The injury list is the main concern currently-we can't afford to lose anyone else.
If we are clinging on to the fact that we had the better of a very poor Sarries, in the first half of a home game, yet scored fewer points, then things are desperate!
And BTW whilst the injured and banned may be back to a training ground fitness level they certainly wont be back to match fitness for some time after.
And BTW whilst the injured and banned may be back to a training ground fitness level they certainly wont be back to match fitness for some time after.
BRW,
Your post is spot on. I agree with all of it.
Biglad.
There is no such thing as 'strong enough'
Your post is spot on. I agree with all of it.
Biglad.
There is no such thing as 'strong enough'
P.S. It's every home match plus any I see on the telly, less those I can't get to.
Prof, forgot to mention to you that you even had Alex Sanderson smiling with your "advice" for the ref! 
What concerns me more than the team looking like they did pre DR is that they look exactly as they did before Mike Ross got picked and Gomarsall got signed in the first season back in the GP... and then we were 0/7... and which two key players have we lost without replacing...
The thing for me is that we don't seem to be making the most of our opportunities when we get them. Both vs Leicester and now Sarries we seemed to have the better of the 1st half but then lose shape (and the plot) in the 2nd when we hadn't scored in the 1st half. We can't afford any more injuries, they are really hurting us and we must be more determined with ball in hand. The number of times that what was clearly the wrong option was taken was frightening. These guys didn't do it last year!
The positives: Lambert seemed to have a better game. Stevenson was more visible, seemed to be putting it about a bit more. JTH was looking good, if a bit one dimensional, Stretts was looking keen. NEv played better.
Negatives: Kicking form hand by everyone was poor, kicks weren't chased, sloppy passing (again!) 1st up tackles weren't being made, line out and scrum are both a worry, especially the scrum when Lambert went off again.
The positives: Lambert seemed to have a better game. Stevenson was more visible, seemed to be putting it about a bit more. JTH was looking good, if a bit one dimensional, Stretts was looking keen. NEv played better.
Negatives: Kicking form hand by everyone was poor, kicks weren't chased, sloppy passing (again!) 1st up tackles weren't being made, line out and scrum are both a worry, especially the scrum when Lambert went off again.
Well Battering Ram Winger, as you were mistaken for me in another thread recently I should feel honoured! Excellent analysis thanks. Just one small point on the Prof's post, I counted Ugo dropping it 3 times in or near our 22 and failing to get under his own Gary Owen's twice. And I wasn't on the beer. Great job, nice to be talking about rugby.
Sarries did what they needed to. I think anyone will take winning ugly away from home including Quins. I think like the others we have played so far they have worked us out.
Their backs are standing deep for the inevitable kicks which are less of a threat now as Ugo can't chase in from the wing.
If we kick to touch our own lineout isn't secure. Even if we catch it we haven't shown any sign so far of being able to roll a maul 5 metres forward.
Maybe we have played 3 of the stronger teams in the league so far but current form suggests we'll be doing well to get into the top half of the league.
Only consolation from this weekend is Leeds are already looking nailed on for bottom spot.
Their backs are standing deep for the inevitable kicks which are less of a threat now as Ugo can't chase in from the wing.
If we kick to touch our own lineout isn't secure. Even if we catch it we haven't shown any sign so far of being able to roll a maul 5 metres forward.
Maybe we have played 3 of the stronger teams in the league so far but current form suggests we'll be doing well to get into the top half of the league.
Only consolation from this weekend is Leeds are already looking nailed on for bottom spot.
Apart from the fact that we are currently in the bottom spot. What a completely inane comment.
So which bit was inane?
Where I sit in the East stand (win or lose actually and I'll still be there in the same seat next year whatever) plenty of others were also saying "when do we play Leeds"?
At least I saw out the full match unlike a fairly large minority of others. Not to mention the STH who were not even there.
So where you at the match and when did you leave exactly?
Where I sit in the East stand (win or lose actually and I'll still be there in the same seat next year whatever) plenty of others were also saying "when do we play Leeds"?
At least I saw out the full match unlike a fairly large minority of others. Not to mention the STH who were not even there.
So where you at the match and when did you leave exactly?
I don't blame people for leaving. The entertainment value was less than zero!
I'd have left if it didn't mean getting in people's way. The team looked about as interested as I was with 10 to go.
Good God, I'm glad I missed this one if there were only 5 positives and three of those had nothing to do with the game!
RESPECT THE REF - NO REF, NO GAME!
RESPECT THE REF - NO REF, NO GAME!
It's hard to work out how we dominated territory and possession in the first half with no positives.
Well some where amongst those posts is the truth.
My own view picks up bits from everyone.
Athough beaten, we should have been beaten by more.
We are very pre relegation - but the team is very unbalanced in players/position.
We are using a lot of very young inexperienced players as an only choice.
We have played against three teams of greater maturity.
We lost all three but not badly, under the circumstances.
This week i was delighted with SteveS, I thought he played well.
Lineouts were always going to be a struggle, and they were,
- we dont have much experience to back up the front row and the new lads seem to be falling like flys,
- We have some great individuals in the backs but the combination of all things dusrupted everything
- discision making,
- opportunity,
-luck -
-nothing fell for us - as it never does for any team who are on the back foot.
Players returning and players back in position will restore balance and reveal our long term weakness, hwere have no answer - front row
- that and not enough general depth.
on on quins
My own view picks up bits from everyone.
Athough beaten, we should have been beaten by more.
We are very pre relegation - but the team is very unbalanced in players/position.
We are using a lot of very young inexperienced players as an only choice.
We have played against three teams of greater maturity.
We lost all three but not badly, under the circumstances.
This week i was delighted with SteveS, I thought he played well.
Lineouts were always going to be a struggle, and they were,
- we dont have much experience to back up the front row and the new lads seem to be falling like flys,
- We have some great individuals in the backs but the combination of all things dusrupted everything
- discision making,
- opportunity,
-luck -
-nothing fell for us - as it never does for any team who are on the back foot.
Players returning and players back in position will restore balance and reveal our long term weakness, hwere have no answer - front row
- that and not enough general depth.
on on quins
We have needed one or two top level Front 5 players for some time, not just recently, I mean for 3 or 4 seasons. Where are they al?
I don't know how the salary cap/budget works (does anyone?).
Mike Ross was a huge bonus over the last couple of years and now, fair dues, he's moved on to a bigger contract and a chance with Ireland. We are certainly struggling in the front row without him and the other teams we have still to play are not going to be a pushover either in this part of the game.
I can't help feeling after finishing second last year and a HC Quarter final we should have been signing a few forwards to really beef things up a bit and not just from Exeter...
Mike Ross was a huge bonus over the last couple of years and now, fair dues, he's moved on to a bigger contract and a chance with Ireland. We are certainly struggling in the front row without him and the other teams we have still to play are not going to be a pushover either in this part of the game.
I can't help feeling after finishing second last year and a HC Quarter final we should have been signing a few forwards to really beef things up a bit and not just from Exeter...
Understanding the salary cap? yes I'm with you there. My understanding is every GP club is salary capped at 4 Million quid (a maximum which a lot of clubs are no where near) with 4 million you could get 40 players of the same ability and pay them all 100k a year? (Probably less a generic pot to cover appearance bonuses)? Clearly with players of different ability, maturity etc yo go up and down from there.
Anyone care to expand? Are we near the 4 million cap? How does that compare to the French and SH? Discuss.
Anyone care to expand? Are we near the 4 million cap? How does that compare to the French and SH? Discuss.
Re: salary cap at £4m?
Sorry you have got me started on this now...
According to "Wikipedia£ the average salary is £70k for a Premiership rugby player. All academy players are on £20k (or less). Obviously there are some big names and international players on quite a bit more than the average but I assume most clubs only have a handful of these.
It sounds like a lot of cash to me...
Anyway what's Johnny Wilkinson on - I think we could even have squeezed him in.
Sorry you have got me started on this now...
According to "Wikipedia£ the average salary is £70k for a Premiership rugby player. All academy players are on £20k (or less). Obviously there are some big names and international players on quite a bit more than the average but I assume most clubs only have a handful of these.
It sounds like a lot of cash to me...
Anyway what's Johnny Wilkinson on - I think we could even have squeezed him in.
Wilko's on something like 650k per season. No idea if in € or £.
To be honest doesnt really matter if it's in Eur's or £gbp! about par these days! 
there is always a way round these things...anyone else old enough to remember "boot money".....
....And anyway, Wilkinson's a RUBBISH tight head, & too much of a short'a*se for 2nd row.
but apparently he can not only play the piano, he could carry it.. (Torygraph..) I guess that would make him a KEY player....Sorry, I'm going now....
Well, to break the bank involves persuading Duncan Saville to open the purse strings further and possibly sacking a few players to stay within the salary cap. (but of course that's no good if the compensation involved means paying out the full terms of their contract - that too comes out the salary cap!).
It does ever so slightly require the man you're purchasing to want to join you. Mehrtens for example, left us saying he wouldn't play for another GP team, no matter how much was offered.
It does ever so slightly require the man you're purchasing to want to join you. Mehrtens for example, left us saying he wouldn't play for another GP team, no matter how much was offered.
Our squad isn't huge, though...
And isn't the salary cap closer to £3m?
And isn't the salary cap closer to £3m?
Quote:Stomalomalus
Our squad isn't huge, though...
And isn't the salary cap closer to £3m?
Ignore that, GP site hasn't been updated in 2 years, it seems...
We should, therefore, be quite a way under the £4m threshold, then. I'd say we would be under £3m, unless NEv is being paid more than a quarter of a mill...
Salary cap is £4m, but that was raised to replace a bunch of allowances that were outside the cap. In fact if you got all the allowances (can't remember, were they for producing England players and the like?) you got around £3.2m instead of the official £2.2m.
Quote:DOK
Salary cap is £4m, but that was raised to replace a bunch of allowances that were outside the cap. In fact if you got all the allowances (can't remember, were they for producing England players and the like?) you got around £3.2m instead of the official £2.2m.
The clubs voted to put the money from EQPs into a big pot that they all got an equal share from, which screwed over some clubs and stupidly benefited others.
Quote:Jammy Git
The clubs voted to put the money from EQPs into a big pot that they all got an equal share from, which screwed over some clubs and stupidly benefited others.
But it benefits Worcester, Leeds, Newcastle most. Which is surely a good thing?
Quote:StomalomalusQuote:Jammy Git
The clubs voted to put the money from EQPs into a big pot that they all got an equal share from, which screwed over some clubs and stupidly benefited others.
But it benefits Worcester, Leeds, Newcastle most. Which is surely a good thing?
Nope. They already benefit by not losing players during the long international windows...
Quote:Jammy GitQuote:StomalomalusQuote:Jammy Git
The clubs voted to put the money from EQPs into a big pot that they all got an equal share from, which screwed over some clubs and stupidly benefited others.
But it benefits Worcester, Leeds, Newcastle most. Which is surely a good thing?
Nope. They already benefit by not losing players during the long international windows...
Yes, but the are stuck in a rut. They can't bring the best players in as they aren't in the HC and they can't get into the HC as they don't have the best players. This goes someway to redressing this.
Is there no exemptions from Salary Cap to allow new players to replace long term injuries at all?
Quote:deadlyfrom5yardsout
Is there no exemptions from Salary Cap to allow new players to replace long term injuries at all?
Did they get rid of that when the cap was raised?
Quote:Stomalomalus
Yes, but the are stuck in a rut. They can't bring the best players in as they aren't in the HC and they can't get into the HC as they don't have the best players. This goes someway to redressing this.
It isn't about the HC, it's about developing English players and being good for the English game.
This is a bonus payment for producing English qualified players and teams who don't do that are still benefiting with no down side. Ones who DO suffer from call-ups and don't earn more money to compensate for it.
It's daft.
Quote:Jammy GitQuote:Stomalomalus
Yes, but the are stuck in a rut. They can't bring the best players in as they aren't in the HC and they can't get into the HC as they don't have the best players. This goes someway to redressing this.
It isn't about the HC, it's about developing English players and being good for the English game.
This is a bonus payment for producing English qualified players and teams who don't do that are still benefiting with no down side. Ones who DO suffer from call-ups and don't earn more money to compensate for it.
It's daft.
If the clubs agreed on it, they can't complain. And anyway, Leicester don't need any more money :p
Wasps certainly do.
And the PRL (afaik...) agreed on it, not the clubs themselves as such.
And the PRL (afaik...) agreed on it, not the clubs themselves as such.
Yeah I thought Wasps were in trouble money-wise too, but part of the fall-out from the publicity surrounding recent events was that I noticed we at Quins
are £14,000,000 in debt? Anybody shed any light on this?
The game's afoot;
Follow your spirit: and upon this charge,
Cry — God for Harry! England and Saint George
are £14,000,000 in debt? Anybody shed any light on this?The game's afoot;
Follow your spirit: and upon this charge,
Cry — God for Harry! England and Saint George
Where on earth would you find such a figure?
STILL PROUD TO BE A QUIN
STILL PROUD TO BE A QUIN
Actually, Worcester, Leeds and Newcastle do a lot for the English qualified part of the GP - all of them have a pretty good Academy system, Leeds has suffered due to everyone being poached, though.
IQTIA that figure was quoted in one of the quality papers but regrettably I cant remember which as I have read hundreds lately...maybe it included the costs of financing West and South Stands?......
I think after the East stand was built we owed around £7m. By the time the West stand was built it was £9-10m so another £4m from the West stand would seem reasonable.
I don't understand finance (as I'm probably about to prove) but I think it's not as bad as it looks, in that the £14m is owed to Duncan Saville or one of his companies so they're unlikely to demand repayment at any time. I assume we just have to pay off the interest rather than the loan.
I don't understand finance (as I'm probably about to prove) but I think it's not as bad as it looks, in that the £14m is owed to Duncan Saville or one of his companies so they're unlikely to demand repayment at any time. I assume we just have to pay off the interest rather than the loan.
Yeah and I guess the Asset far outweighs the liabilities. At least I hope so!
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