By Barney Burnham
May 13 2005

Ahead of Saturday's climax to the domestic season, Barney Burnham spoke to Wasps skipper Lawrence Dallaglio, scrumhalf Matt Dawson, outgoing Director of Rugby Warren Gatland, and, first, coach Shaun Edwards.
BB:One thing Wasps haven't managed to do in the past three years is establish any sort of dominance over Leicester, in terms of results. How confident are you that that can be turned around?

SE: That's a very good question.Certainly, this season, they've held the upper hand, for one reason or another.The last game was a bit embarrassing.In the other games, one was a draw, and they nicked the other two. So, yes. They do have the upper hand, but we like to feel that we save our best performances for the last game of the season, for when it really, really matters. And we aim to do that on Saturday.

BB: How do you take them on? Do you try to stop them playing, or do you try to impose your game on them?

SE:Both.When they get the ball, we defend like hell. When we get the ball, we try to forget about them, and attack. People say you either concentrate on defence, or you concentrate on attack. When we've got the ball, we concentrate on attack. When we haven't, we concentrate on defence. It's as simple as that.

BB: There are so many extra emotional elements to this game, aren't there? Warren Gatland leaving, Craig Dowd ending his playing career, Will Green leaving. On their side, John Wells going, and Neil Back and Martin Johnson retiring. It'll be hard for supporters to exclude that from what's happening on the pitch.

SE: It's probably a good job the supporters aren't playing then, isn't it? Because it's important not to let those sorts of emotional things get to you too much, when you're actually playing out there on the pitch.Whilst after the game, we'll all be sad to say goodbye - to Warren in particular, from my point of view - during the 80 minutes, it's all about the business of performing on the rugby pitch.

BB: Ian McGeechan has been to some of the games since being appointed as Warren's
successor. Has the handover period started already?

SE: Obviously we're consulting Ian on certain decisions, regarding keeping players, and the structure of his staff, etc.. He's having a large part to play in that. Absolutely.

BB: And has he offered any advice on a game plan for Saturday, or has he left that entirely to you and Warren?

SE: He mentioned one thing to me, but it's all stuff we've already spoken about. Obviously, the importance of getting Neil Back off our ball. That's important, particularly as we're going to be playing without a recognised 7, and it's going to be a huge part of the game.

BB: One thing that didn't go well against Sale was the restart, and Leicester are very good at those.

SE: Absolutely. In Andy Goode, they've got somebody who can put the ball on a sixpence, with a great amount of height. It's been a bit of an Achilles heel for us all year. Hopefully, we can get it right on Saturday, and every time we score, we can get the ball back into their half.

BB: Lawrence. In your long career at Wasps, there can't have been that many wins over Leicester.

LD: There have been a few! As you say, I've had a long career, and they've been a very dominant team and a strong team, but I have had my fair share of wins against them.

BB: I remember there was a game at Loftus Road, which they sneaked in the last minute. I don't think you were playing in it, but I do remember you saying that we needed to get as streetwise as them. It seems that, since then, we have become more streetwise.

LD: Yes. They've had a dip, we've had a surge - but you have to admire them for their attitude. I've always felt that every good side has four, five six players who are wily and know all the tricks of the trade. They have fifteen. No, twenty-two! They compete very heavily and they push it to the limit. They showed that in winning the Heineken Cup Final in 2002. I don't knock them for the way they did it. I respect them for it.They do whatever it takes, but so do we.

BB:Martin Johnson. Retiring after this game. You've played more often with him than against him. You've always been someone who relishes a challenge. Do you enjoy playing against him, as much as you enjoy playing with him?

LD: Well, you can't make these games personal. It's about Leicester v Wasps, not about Martin Johnson v Lawrence Dallaglio. Obviously, he's an icon in the game. A guy that I've captained, and who's captained me. I've got a huge amount of respect for him, and I'm looking forward to taking him on one last time. There'll be lots of reasons to be tearful and to be cheerful at the weekend. Craig Dowd's retiring, Warren's going back to New Zealand, John Wells is standing down, Will Green's off to Leinster, and, of course, Neil Back and Martin. Lots of plots, lots of sub-plots - but the only thing that matters is the result, for both sides. All the other nonsense that goes on around the game is, quite frankly, fairly irrelevant.

BB: Matt. Almost in the first minute of the Heineken Cup game at Wycombe, Harry Ellis literally went for your throat. He really had you in his sights, didn't he? Are you expecting him to be as fired up on Saturday?

MD:I think Leicester-Wasps games are always pretty intense. They have been all season. I think both teams will be well up for it!

BB: And how do you see the game going. The heavy defeat at Welford Road, two weeks ago, is pretty irrelevant, isn't it?

MD: Yes. This is a final. Everything's at stake. Everyone knows there are no second chances. Everyone, from both camps, will be saying and thinking the same things. We've got the same motivations, the same aims, pretty much the same preparation. I think it'll be a pretty even contest.

BB: Martin Johnson. you've played with him far more than against him. Are you going to be relieved that you'll never have to face him on the field again?

MD: No. It's been a pleasure, knowing and playing with Johnno - and against him.He'll be a big loss to the game. But that's for after, for Sunday and Monday, to talk about it.He wants to concentrate on a game of rugby, and so do we.

BB: Warren.You've played Leicester four times this season. One draw, two narrow defeats and one thrashing. Which of those games is the one you've spent most time analysing, ahead of this weekend?

WG: The last one, because it wasn't a great performance. I don't think anyone was going to spoil Leicester's party on that day - the referee definitely wasn't! - and we didn't show up physically. So, yes, we've had a critical look at the last game. Now we've put it aside and concentrated on how we're going to play against them this weekend. It's a final, and from my view, there are a lot of teams who've come here as underdogs. Leicester will be the favourites, and we'll come here, hoping that we can upset the form guide. History says that we've performed well in the big games over the last few years, and I'm hoping that we're going to do the same again on Saturday.

BB: How big a blow is it to lose Tom Rees, and not be able to replace him with Jonny O'Connor?

WG:Yes, it's a big loss. We're going to move Joe Worlsey to number 7, and bring John Hart in at 6. But it's strange in that regard, because sometimes, through adversity, you have the positives - and John Hart's done a fantastic job for us this season. He's still a youngster and I think he's been unlucky, in the last few weeks, that he hasn't actually secured a place - and he probably deserves, from some of his performances, to actually be in the starting fifteen. I'm actually delighted that he gets the opportunity to play at 6. We move Joe to 7, and it probably increases the size of our pack. From that point of view, hopefully, it's going to be a positive, in terms of our performance at the weekend.