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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:11:01:08:36:04 by Faithful_City.

As I said in the other thread it is light on detail. It says all the right things but do they stack up in reality?

Is there a demand for all a hotel, medical centre, e-charging, marina etc at Sixways. if there is why haven't these already been explored and built by previous owners? Will they be financial contributors to the plan or a drain upon it? You would have to really sweat the assets to make them work for the club.

The budding system sounds no different to the loan system that is already in place in the Championship. What will make Worcester a more attractive outlet to develop players than other Championship clubs?

Current events should caution about accepting any offer without really questioning both the finances and motives behind any bid.

Quote:

Richard Lowther
Is there a demand for all a hotel, medical centre, e-charging, marina etc at Sixways. if there is why haven't these already been explored and built by previous owners? Will they be financial contributors to the plan or a drain upon it? You would have to really sweat the assets to make them work for the club.

The budding system sounds no different to the loan system that is already in place in the Championship. What will make Worcester a more attractive outlet to develop players than other Championship clubs?

Current events should caution about accepting any offer without really questioning both the finances and motives behind any bid.

I would guess recent owners have not had the money to invest properly in the site, there is a lot of talk about the value of the land, the question is how to derive long term income from it without detriment to the rugby side.
I would also guess he wants to expand dual registrations but with the massive difference of having premiership quality training and conditioning, so players are ready to go straight into premiership level games when required. That would mean much better players coming on loan (unless everyone follows his squad of 42 theory when we could have the 5 or 6 whose egos need massging). I guess the major drawback would be that it's likely to be very short-term signings so difficult to keep cohesion.

I reckon he will go with 30 players plus 4 possible loan players from each of Bath, Sale and Tigers which would make up the team if suffering injuries.

So a huge saving on salaries, more available for investment into growth of infa-structure

Means the value of the club increases instead of going into deeper debt.

JP

Richard Lowther, as Worcester Wanderer says previous owners have not had either the cash or nous or both to develop the land. I would think there is plenty of demand on a motorway for charging points, which would bring with it other retail opportunities. A hotel with a marina could be an attractive propostion. A knowledgable friend, and former poster on this site, tells me that there could be a need for more berths than are avaiable at Diglis.
There is the possibility that in the near future Lawrence, Hill, Raparva Ruskin , Singleton and Smith will be in the England squad so good eveidnece that Wuss have a record ( both recent and historical ) of developing players for international recognition, which compsre well with any other Championship side. We will also hopefully have a premiership mediacal and coaching infrstructure. Sorry if this will disappoint you.

Quote:

ROLLO
Richard Lowther, as Worcester Wanderer says previous owners have not had either the cash or nous or both to develop the land. I would think there is plenty of demand on a motorway for charging points, which would bring with it other retail opportunities. A hotel with a marina could be an attractive propostion. A knowledgable friend, and former poster on this site, tells me that there could be a need for more berths than are avaiable at Diglis.
There is the possibility that in the near future Lawrence, Hill, Raparva Ruskin , Singleton and Smith will be in the England squad so good eveidnece that Wuss have a record ( both recent and historical ) of developing players for international recognition, which compsre well with any other Championship side. We will also hopefully have a premiership mediacal and coaching infrstructure. Sorry if this will disappoint you.

It does not disappointment me. I'm asking the questions that people should be asking. It seems that some are blinded by accepting anything but this approach in the past as left the current mess.

As for past owners not having the money to develop the site, yet Diamond's consortium seems to have less money available than before because you will lose the Premiership income. So it doesn't make sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:29:10:57:12 by Richard Lowther.

What we have had from Steve Diamond is simply an outline of how a business plan might look. There are understandably few details and of course no costings or financial projections.

However the principal theme in the announcement is I think important: the only way for the club to prosper in the medium term is to be self sufficient financially. The Sixways Village must break even or better.

That will be the determining factor as to which league the club will play in - nothing else.

If the Sixways Village can support financially a Premiership team then promotion will be the aim. If it can't, then we shall all have to accept the reality of Championship rugby. In the Diamond outline there is no place, after the first couple of years, for a "sugar daddy".

The commercial development of the site has been on the agenda for years. And to be fair, for once, to Messrs W & G they made no secret of their intentions in that respect. They just couldn't make it happen.

Steve Diamond says he can make it happen. That is the second theme running through his announcement. He has certainly painted a picture - but at the moment it is just that, a picture.

And he is not the only painter in the race.

There must be room somewhere to get one of those Mcarth Glenn centres on site. just went to the new one in Cannock the other day and was to say the least impressed. the rent revenue from that could bring in some serious ££. The possablilites are endless and a few years in the championship may be a way to build the crouds again. I have discussed this with mrs drifter and can see us returning. and yes we gave up 17 years of season tickets 4 years ago. But this plan does appeal to us.

Under this outline we ought to be one of the better Championship sides, but would we have to refuse promotion if we came top?
The leap in cost needed to compete in the Prem would outweigh the additional revenue. What would in feel like to fans and players to know that you're not aiming higher?

As everyone says, currently it's a vague plan. I would question how viable a hotel is, there is one just down the road. Conferences, well not many take place in Worcester as Birmingham is only an hour up the road. A marina is a great idea but who would moor up with nothing to go to when out of the boat. In Diglis they are 10 mins from town and pubs on the doorstep.
Shoping centre, again big one up the road and a trading estate 5 mins away.
Just not sure what can go onsite to provide funds to run a club, and create no losses. Remember SD said the backer doesn't want to lose money every year.
Not a pop at SD just not sure what can be built that will bring in over 6 million a year to fund the entire site and support rugby because its going to need to generate about that much.

Forced to retire by the RFU

Quote:

Drutz
As everyone says, currently it's a vague plan. I would question how viable a hotel is, there is one just down the road. Conferences, well not many take place in Worcester as Birmingham is only an hour up the road. A marina is a great idea but who would moor up with nothing to go to when out of the boat. In Diglis they are 10 mins from town and pubs on the doorstep.
Shoping centre, again big one up the road and a trading estate 5 mins away.
Just not sure what can go onsite to provide funds to run a club, and create no losses. Remember SD said the backer doesn't want to lose money every year.
Not a pop at SD just not sure what can be built that will bring in over 6 million a year to fund the entire site and support rugby because its going to need to generate about that much.

Exactly.

Yet we have people already jumping to declining promotion...

My comment on declining promotion was not intended as a criticism of this outline idea (I like JP's take on it). I was simply wondering if enough supporters would sign-up knowing that premiership rugby may not be credible until one or more of these potential revenue streams becomes active.

I am not commercially minded or savvy enough to know whether SD’s plan is viable or not. I do know however that I really want him to be involved in some capacity at Warriors. If this is the only way it would happen, then I would prefer it to other options.

You may be right.

I think, reading between the lines, that the message is that we will not be able to afford Premiership rugby until other income streams are coming in from the land. I do agree that I am not sure how to make the land profitable, but we do have land, and it is by a motorway and I think other clubs would kill for that opportunity.

Quote:

Richard Lowther

Quote:

ROLLO
Richard Lowther, as Worcester Wanderer says previous owners have not had either the cash or nous or both to develop the land. I would think there is plenty of demand on a motorway for charging points, which would bring with it other retail opportunities. A hotel with a marina could be an attractive propostion. A knowledgable friend, and former poster on this site, tells me that there could be a need for more berths than are avaiable at Diglis.
There is the possibility that in the near future Lawrence, Hill, Raparva Ruskin , Singleton and Smith will be in the England squad so good eveidnece that Wuss have a record ( both recent and historical ) of developing players for international recognition, which compsre well with any other Championship side. We will also hopefully have a premiership mediacal and coaching infrstructure. Sorry if this will disappoint you.

It does not disappointment me. I'm asking the questions that people should be asking. It seems that some are blinded by accepting anything but this approach in the past as left the current mess.

As for past owners not having the money to develop the site, yet Diamond's consortium seems to have less money available than before because you will lose the Premiership income. So it doesn't make sense.

And why do you think you are entitled to know. As supporters we are simply customers. If we were investors under a fan ownership scheme then I think the point would be valid. We are not. It is up to them how much detail they release. Then the decision is simple. Pay to go, or do not.

Do you ask the same questions of every other business you use?

The fact that Steve Diamonds plan he has revealed is high level does not mean he doesn't have a detailed plan. I wouldn't reveal that to anyone except the administrator and RFU /PRL.

By the way the NHS has been looking at diagnostic centre on Junction 6 for some time but these things do move slowly and Jeremy Hunt may push it back again.

If you look how fast the land both sides of the M5 between junction 6 and junction 7 has been filling in then you can see how attractive the land at sixways is.

The issue is how fast can the plan be activated. The problem is the timing is dreadful from an economic point of view.

Build a hotel then let small boats land and then get the Govt to put them up in it. so it will alwas be full. easy.

I will get my coat

You can listen to Dimes talk about his plans - he’s on BT Sport Rugby Tonight after the televised game tomorrow afternoon

If we don’t accept promotion then I won’t be watching. If we can’t afford it then just go up and spend what we can.

Quote:

NW2
... I do know however that I really want him to be involved in some capacity at Warriors. If this is the only way it would happen, then I would prefer it to other options.

Bet you wouldn't have foreseen yourself saying that 18 months ago!

A few things:

1. We’ve missed the boat (pardon the marina pun) on a shopping outlet as there is one being developed at Tewkesbury

2. If a marina is on the cards we don’t have the attraction of the city but a hotel/pub may help. And if you look at it the other way round a marina may make a hotel/pub more attractive with perhaps even some apartments added in

3. Possibly the most important aspect of Dimes’s plan (other than him leading the playing side) is formally bringing everything under one umbrella which takes away the worry of asset stripping. Any plan that involves separate entities for different parts of the business would be a no go for me

Quote:

GnB
A few things:
1. We’ve missed the boat (pardon the marina pun) on a shopping outlet as there is one being developed at Tewkesbury

2. If a marina is on the cards we don’t have the attraction of the city but a hotel/pub may help. And if you look at it the other way round a marina may make a hotel/pub more attractive with perhaps even some apartments added in

3. Possibly the most important aspect of Dimes’s plan (other than him leading the playing side) is formally bringing everything under one umbrella which takes away the worry of asset stripping. Any plan that involves separate entities for different parts of the business would be a no go for me

I understand your feelings regarding separate companies owning bits but I think you'll find all grounds are owned by separate companies to the rugby business. Could be wrong. It's to ensure that the valuable land is not lost due to having an underperforming, costly rugby team overstretching itself.

BB

Quote:

Faithful_City
I reckon he will go with 30 players plus 4 possible loan players from each of Bath, Sale and Tigers which would make up the team if suffering injuries.
So a huge saving on salaries, more available for investment into growth of infa-structure

Means the value of the club increases instead of going into deeper debt.

JP

I would suggest probably the bulk of the matchday squad would be dual registrations and the rest mainly academy contracts. Salaries at around 10 percent of previous level. Matchday income and sponsorship would be lower but not to the same extent.
P shares represent an income stream and an asset to borrow against, but they haven't covered the costs of premiership rugby if I understand our financial history.

Understand what you say BB and it is a reality. As others have said, it will be interesting to see how the vision translates into reality (if selected).

Quote:

GnB
Understand what you say BB and it is a reality. As others have said, it will be interesting to see how the vision translates into reality (if selected).

Well, yes, it's all up for negotiation at the moment.

BB

After the re-org there may not be a champioship but rather a 2nd fully professional league

Premiership 1 and Prem 2 both under the PRL

JP

Quote:

Faithful_City
After the re-org there may not be a champioship but rather a 2nd fully professional league
Premiership 1 and Prem 2 both under the PRL

JP

There isn't enough money for that many fully professional teams and even some of the better ones have no interest in being in the Premiership.

BB

There are at the moment 17 maybe 18 fully professional clubs who want to be and are prepared for premiership rugby.

It only takes 2 or 3 more to go professional and you have 2 10 team fully professional leagues. If BOTH those leagues come under the PRL and are properly funded encouraged and supported with meaningful competitions then we have our leagues.

JP

I don't think it's numbers JP.

It's the cash, with tv deals, sponsorship etc there is not enough money in rugby to fully fund 20 teams or sll teams will have to take much smaller cuts of money. Its not a bad idea but they can barely get funding fir 1 league let alone 2.

Forced to retire by the RFU

There will be 3 less clubs in the prem if they drop to 10 clubs that is a huge amount of money available for premiership 2 clubs to share out

Ad to that the £2.5million parachute payment that will not be paid to Wasps or Worcester. This alone added to what the clubs already get will give each club £500k double what they get now. Ad to that there is another £500k from having 2 less clubs in Prem 2.

It all starts to add up to a significant amount of funding available for Prem 2 clubs @£1.5million each without having to actually find any more money or reduce what the Prem 1 clubs get.

If CVC/RFU/PRL can get their act together and generate even more money from media/sponsored/investors it is all very very possible

But the current Prem teams want to reduce to 10 to enable the remaining teams to get more of the cash. I don't believe that they are suggesting it to allow the money to flow into the Championship. No "trickle-down" economics for them. Indeed a small few want the salary cap increased, a move that I believe could be the death-nell of professional rugby.

We need strong leadership from the RFU and PRL, and this in itself is a worry. Will there be entry into the Premiership in 2 or 3 years time? My guess is that Baxter et al will have pulled up the drawbridge by then.

Quote:

Offa
But the current Prem teams want to reduce to 10 to enable the remaining teams to get more of the cash. I don't believe that they are suggesting it to allow the money to flow into the Championship. No "trickle-down" economics for them. Indeed a small few want the salary cap increased, a move that I believe could be the death-nell of professional rugby.
We need strong leadership from the RFU and PRL, and this in itself is a worry. Will there be entry into the Premiership in 2 or 3 years time? My guess is that Baxter et al will have pulled up the drawbridge by then.

Just ask Bedford, pirates,or Doncaster about pulling up the drawbridge. Let's be honest, if it had been us or Newcastle in the champ and not sarries we would still be in it.

Quote:

Worcester Wonderer

Quote:

Offa
But the current Prem teams want to reduce to 10 to enable the remaining teams to get more of the cash. I don't believe that they are suggesting it to allow the money to flow into the Championship. No "trickle-down" economics for them. Indeed a small few want the salary cap increased, a move that I believe could be the death-nell of professional rugby.
We need strong leadership from the RFU and PRL, and this in itself is a worry. Will there be entry into the Premiership in 2 or 3 years time? My guess is that Baxter et al will have pulled up the drawbridge by then.

Their argument to go to 10 is not to get more money but to save the players having to play 4 games.

Fine, so let the money go to the Prem 2 clubs

JP

Just ask Bedford, pirates,or Doncaster about pulling up the drawbridge. Let's be honest, if it had been us or Newcastle in the champ and not sarries we would still be in it.

Quote:

Gerald Wiley

Quote:

NW2
... I do know however that I really want him to be involved in some capacity at Warriors. If this is the only way it would happen, then I would prefer it to other options.

Bet you wouldn't have foreseen yourself saying that 18 months ago!

You may be right, although I’ve never had a real downer on SD, just thought he was sometimes guilty of speaking out before engaging his brain., usually on tv. Either way, I have definitely been a fan of him at Warriors and felt he was making, and would have continued to make, a real impact. I just hope he gets the chance to have another go.

Quote:

Abmatt

Quote:

Richard Lowther

Quote:

ROLLO
Richard Lowther, as Worcester Wanderer says previous owners have not had either the cash or nous or both to develop the land. I would think there is plenty of demand on a motorway for charging points, which would bring with it other retail opportunities. A hotel with a marina could be an attractive propostion. A knowledgable friend, and former poster on this site, tells me that there could be a need for more berths than are avaiable at Diglis.
There is the possibility that in the near future Lawrence, Hill, Raparva Ruskin , Singleton and Smith will be in the England squad so good eveidnece that Wuss have a record ( both recent and historical ) of developing players for international recognition, which compsre well with any other Championship side. We will also hopefully have a premiership mediacal and coaching infrstructure. Sorry if this will disappoint you.

It does not disappointment me. I'm asking the questions that people should be asking. It seems that some are blinded by accepting anything but this approach in the past as left the current mess.

As for past owners not having the money to develop the site, yet Diamond's consortium seems to have less money available than before because you will lose the Premiership income. So it doesn't make sense.

And why do you think you are entitled to know. As supporters we are simply customers. If we were investors under a fan ownership scheme then I think the point would be valid. We are not. It is up to them how much detail they release. Then the decision is simple. Pay to go, or do not.

Do you ask the same questions of every other business you use?

Good questions but you overlook the emotional attachments that supporters have to the 'business'. In any other business if you were screwed over by the owners you would, as a customer, walk away but as supporters, we don't, we keep coming back.

It is therefore human nature to be asking new owners for their plans, because ultimately we feature in those.

They need the supporters to come, so that sponsorship is sold on the back on the number of supporters, that revenue is raised from ticket, food sales etc.

If any prospective owners don't look after their fans then as a rugby club any plans fail.

Drutz we are talking about two different things, not moorings for the night, but twelve month moorings.
My learned friend who does have an initmate knowledge of waterways tells me that the nearest one to Diglis is at Droitwich which is almost full , there is then Alvechurch. Boat owners want to keep their boat safe for regular or occassional use. They have power , waste water etc., and are typically situated outside towns and cities and want to be able to drive to their craft with as much ease as possible.The owners do not want to walk to pubs, shops etc they want to go there on their boats.
Asa business opportunity the cost of mooring a 70 foot narrowboat at Droitwich Marina is £3835 p.a. the marina has 230 berths but not all can take a 70 foot craft on what was a 13 acre field outside the town. Do the maths.
Not sure what type of marina is being constructed at Tewksbury.

Quote:

Drutz
I don't think it's numbers JP.
It's the cash, with tv deals, sponsorship etc there is not enough money in rugby to fully fund 20 teams or sll teams will have to take much smaller cuts of money. Its not a bad idea but they can barely get funding fir 1 league let alone 2.

They haven’t even tried with the Championship. Instead England players have had payrises from 17k a match back up to above pre covid levels at now £25k per match. Per match! If the RFU had just saved that £8k and given it
To the clubs you’d have almost £2.5m extra to fund the Championship each season. Not a great deal but £200k per team would be enough to fund 4 very decent players.

Then there is the TV deal that has never happened.

With a bit more business nous and a bit more help from the PRL and RFU there is definitely more money there. The Championship is drastically underfunded and as such it’s potential is completely stifled.

Quote:

Worcester Sauce

Quote:

Drutz
I don't think it's numbers JP.
It's the cash, with tv deals, sponsorship etc there is not enough money in rugby to fully fund 20 teams or sll teams will have to take much smaller cuts of money. Its not a bad idea but they can barely get funding fir 1 league let alone 2.

They haven’t even tried with the Championship. Instead England players have had payrises from 17k a match back up to above pre covid levels at now £25k per match. Per match! If the RFU had just saved that £8k and given it
To the clubs you’d have almost £2.5m extra to fund the Championship each season. Not a great deal but £200k per team would be enough to fund 4 very decent players.

Then there is the TV deal that has never happened.

With a bit more business nous and a bit more help from the PRL and RFU there is definitely more money there. The Championship is drastically underfunded and as such it’s potential is completely stifled.

But as others have said currently the remaining teams want 1 less team and the same money. You're asking all the clubs to work with much less money. I can't see it and the RFU have no interest in a competitive fully funded lower tier competition. They've had 20 years to sort this and keep cutting the funding not increasing it.

Rollo, I know you meant 12 month permanent moorings, but that's why I compared it to the Diglis ones. No pubs, no shops, no facilities unless you drive. I can't see why it would work as you'd have to provide all owners with parking the infrastructure would be enormous as well. Huge lay out for something I don't believe there is a huge call for.

Forced to retire by the RFU

Quote:

Worcester Sauce

...

Then there is the TV deal that has never happened.

...

Sky used to broadcast Championship games when they lost the Prem etc to BT. I think they gave up because it cost them money.

BB

Well he is NOT the preferred bidder over to JOT

Elite Rugby at Worcester, this is key

Was that at the point the PRL took over the negotiation from RFU?
Or am I just being cynical?

One aspect of the Steve Diamond plan that I do not understand. The Championship has massive problems ( I well know as a Leeds/Yorkshire Carnegie/Tykes supporter), then by having teams buddying up and getting star scrum halves one week then a massive prop the next: surely this just devalues the league even further?
The Championship is either a reserve/feeder league for the Premiership or there is genuine competition in a competitive league.
A team that gets "promotion" by virtue of having the best free loanee players is hardly likely to be a sustainable Premiership club?