Bath
MELLEE AT THE MAYOL: TOULON v BATH
White: prominent
By Tom Reagan
December 10 2025
This preview will be very short and probably not that sweet. For the Munster game a bit of a re-cap of the tournament format and a brief overview of our group seemed relevant. Not so for game 2. I was also able to get some insight into our opposition by reading their message board. When your schoolboy O - Level French was based on the experiences of Xavier and Marie-Claude dans le jardin sous l'arbre it doesn't leave you well equipped to understand much about the finer arts of rugby.
Toulon, or Rugby Club Toulonais to give them their full title were formed in 1908 and enjoyed occasional success but they probably came to most people's attention - certainly outside France - in the 2010's having been taken over by a local businessman who made his money from comic strips, Mourad Boudjellal. They won the European Cup on 3 consecutive occasions between 2013 and 2015, their 2015 team including stars like Bastareaud, Drew Mitchell, Halfpenny, Giteau, Habana and countless others who were top internationals.
Their present line-up predictably doesn't have the same aura as those remarkable sides of a decade ago but they're currently doing very well in the Top 14, having won 7 of their 11 matches and lie in 3rd place. Reading through their results the first thing that stands out is that they've won all 6 of their games at the 17,500 capacity Stade Mayol. The other thing that struck me, as someone who pays no attention to the Top 14, is the number of very high scoring games they've been involved in. Aside from a low scoring opening 16 - 12 victory over Castres their home games have seen them rack up scores between 33 and 54 points. Their average match score is 32 - 27 which struck me as high but look at the Prem and it's a similar story. Rugby has become a more high scoring affair in recent years.
Their current side includes a few English stars - Lewis Ludlum, Kyle Sinckler, Dave Ribbans and, of course, Zach Mercer. Having watched the highlights of the Edinburgh v Toulon game I'm surprised Ribbans is available for Sunday's game, having struck Liam McConnell in the face as he lay prone at a ruck. Scottish scrum half Ben White was prominent in the Edinburgh game whilst full back Melvin Jaminet impressed, scoring a 40 metre drop goal in the 2nd minute of the game. Other names will doubtless be familiar to those posters who somehow seem to get away with watching wall - to - wall rugby on TV every weekend!
To try and offer some basic insight into what we can expect from Toulon I watched the highlights of their games v Edinburgh and La Rochelle (A 39 - 14 victory) and tapped into the knowledge of a French friend who's a rugby fanatic. Edinburgh's scrum more than held its own last weekend, which might have surprised many as they fielded an inexperienced prop against the Toulon scrum that was described in the La Rochelle commentary as statistically the best in the Top 14. Toulon's game is based on set piece strength and direct running, yet they also conceded a try to a rolling maul against Edinburgh where they were going backwards at a rate of knots. Toulon's discipline was also poor. Their tries over the two games were largely based however on forward power but having created forward momentum they were happy to go wide and the backs looked good. It's hardly rocket science but Bath will want to control the gain line as my learned friend says that if you let Toulon control the tempo of the game they'll destroy you (his words!). As with many French sides they're also quick to punish turnovers and poor kicks so Bath will want to play a very controlled game, something they're very adept at.
Of the last 4 head - to - heads between the two sides, Toulon have won 3 and the bookies have them as very marginal favourites this weekend. Paddy Power gives Toulon a minus 2 handicap, in essence recognising that this game is too close to call (The draw is 20 - 1!). Obviously things might change when the teams are announced. The BBC website suggests that Alfie and Ollie L might be back but Will Muir has had a setback in training. I suspect this has been mentioned on other threads, with posters already picking their sides for the next block of games. As ever, I won't bother adding my two pennyworth but, despite being far too conservative in my score prediction last week I'll take a stab at Bath gaining two bonus points in a fairly high-scoring defeat.
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StumbleuponMELLEE AT THE MAYOL: TOULON v BATH. TEAM UP!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 10/12/2025 20:57
10/12/2025 20:57
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:21:23:44:36 by CoochieCoo.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:21:23:44:36 by CoochieCoo.
Omitted the news that according to the BBC Guy Pepper is also out for a few weeks with an ankle injury.
Thanks Tom
If Toulon base their game plan against Bath on set piece strength, much of the game could be stalemate, given Bath's performance against Munster. Of course French sides are traditionally much stronger at home so we should not read too much into Toulon's defeat in Edinburgh. I do think though that Bath will be anything but victims up front.
In two of the Champions Cup victories Toulon enjoyed a decade ago they were directed by Jonny Wilkinson. Could it be at 10 where the game will be decided? Jalibert, impressive as you say, has drawn much praise for his recent performances. His battle with Finn Russell promises to be the matchup of the match.
PG
If Toulon base their game plan against Bath on set piece strength, much of the game could be stalemate, given Bath's performance against Munster. Of course French sides are traditionally much stronger at home so we should not read too much into Toulon's defeat in Edinburgh. I do think though that Bath will be anything but victims up front.
In two of the Champions Cup victories Toulon enjoyed a decade ago they were directed by Jonny Wilkinson. Could it be at 10 where the game will be decided? Jalibert, impressive as you say, has drawn much praise for his recent performances. His battle with Finn Russell promises to be the matchup of the match.
PG
Jaminet... Full back. Never heard of him before watching the highlights v Edinburgh tbh. Think Jalibert plays for Bordeaux.
Thank you for the report Tom.....I'd no idea that all those ex-Gallagher players had washed up in Toulon.
I have been to Toulon twice, the first time the game was postponed because of the terrorist attacks in Paris and the second time a narrow defeat.
Great trip and really enjoyable city and stadium....the Pilou Pilou Man!
I am more positive than all of you a win and 5 points to Bath!!!!
I have been to Toulon twice, the first time the game was postponed because of the terrorist attacks in Paris and the second time a narrow defeat.
Great trip and really enjoyable city and stadium....the Pilou Pilou Man!
I am more positive than all of you a win and 5 points to Bath!!!!
Quote:TomReagan
Jaminet... Full back. Never heard of him before watching the highlights v Edinburgh tbh. Think Jalibert plays for Bordeaux.
Thanks for the correction Tom.
So it will be Garbisi v Russell at 10. Not quite Wilkinson level, but still a tasty tussle.
If the match is tight I still think Finn could be the difference.
PG
I think Muir is still injured, or carrying a knock from training.
A hard, dry pitch with a bit of sun on your back will suit any winger....but in particular "The Horse"!
A hard, dry pitch with a bit of sun on your back will suit any winger....but in particular "The Horse"!
Thank you for a very good review Tom. I would just suggest that Jonny Wilkinson was as pivotal to their success as any of those stars mentioned & holds the record as their highest points scorer. Their highly passionate supporters loved him! It’s a difficult match to predict but if we start as well as we did against Munster we’ll be hard to live with. If we sit back as we did in the 2nd half, which was apparently tactical, it will be a different story but that is unlikely.
Wilkinson's their record points scorer and the first name I'd think of when remembering those glory days for the Toulon galacticos BH. There were so many names that I decided just to focus on the 2015 side, but even then rather arbitrarily left out the names of some amazing players.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
I think Muir is still injured, or carrying a knock from training.
A hard, dry pitch with a bit of sun on your back will suit any winger....but in particular "The Horse"!
It's a new (calf) injury according to the BBC.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Toulon is one of the places in Europe to watch rugby so will be fun being there.
If we have designs on going deep in the competition this is a game we must target to win. Toulon may be better at home, but have shipped more than 50 points twice this season already. At times their defence is shambolic, be very disappointed not to win this time.
If we have designs on going deep in the competition this is a game we must target to win. Toulon may be better at home, but have shipped more than 50 points twice this season already. At times their defence is shambolic, be very disappointed not to win this time.
I recall when I went their walking around the external concourse and as part of the paved area every yard or so there was a name of a previous player engraved into a slab and then every say 5 yards a little light set into the slabs. We were looking at these and then an animated group of Toulon supporters started saying "Johnee", "Johnee" and led us to where his name was with a light next to it!!
They certainly liked him!
They certainly liked him!
Excellent write up, certainly our toughest match of the pool stages.
I think simply put, if we don't win here, we're likely going to have to win away at Leinster/Toulouse/Bordeaux/Stormers in the latter stages, which would be an even tougher task, so this really does feel like the pivotal fixture in our European campaign.
I think simply put, if we don't win here, we're likely going to have to win away at Leinster/Toulouse/Bordeaux/Stormers in the latter stages, which would be an even tougher task, so this really does feel like the pivotal fixture in our European campaign.
My Punt
Obano
Dunn
TDT
Roux
Ewels
Hill
Underhill
Reid
TCS
Russell
Arundell
Redpath
Ojomoh
Cokanasiga
Carreras
Kepu
FvW
Griffin
Molony
Alfie
Le Roux
Harris/Butt
Bayliss Staddon/Green
Based on
Stuart, Muir, Pepper, Coetzee, der Linde, Spencer & Bayliss (mandatory rest), Lawrence (a week too soon to risk) being not available.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:11:17:15:41 by tigersimon.
Obano
Dunn
TDT
Roux
Ewels
Hill
Underhill
Reid
TCS
Russell
Arundell
Redpath
Ojomoh
Cokanasiga
Carreras
Kepu
FvW
Griffin
Molony
Alfie
Le Roux
Harris/Butt
Based on
Stuart, Muir, Pepper, Coetzee, der Linde, Spencer & Bayliss (mandatory rest), Lawrence (a week too soon to risk) being not available.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:11:17:15:41 by tigersimon.
Doesn't Bayliss need this week off (I've lost track if he's covered by mandatory rest or not but has started last two)?
Is it certain that we have to rest Spencer for this game?
Having TCS up against Serin would be concerning.
Having TCS up against Serin would be concerning.
Ive just looked at my travel details and I was convinced Id hired a car but i cant find anything!
Any tips on other ways to get from Nice airport to Toulon?
Actually car hire is dirt cheap
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:11:13:43:30 by Woodpecker .
Any tips on other ways to get from Nice airport to Toulon?
Actually car hire is dirt cheap
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:11:13:43:30 by Woodpecker .
Quote:Woodpecker
Ive just looked at my travel details and I was convinced Id hired a car but i cant find anything!
Any tips on other ways to get from Nice airport to Toulon?
Actually car hire is dirt cheap
We're using the train from Nice to Toulon, check times/prices on SNCF site
There is a tram service from the airport into the centre of Nice
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:11:14:19:07 by OutsideBath.
Quote:OutsideBath
We're using the train from Nice to Toulon, check times/prices on SNCF site
There is a tram service from the airport into the centre of Nice
You don't have to go into the centre of Nice unless you want to. You can catch a train direct to Toulon from Nice Saint-Augustin which is 800m from the airport. Admitedly there's only one direct train an hour.
BATH supporter since 1975
Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:11:14:52:54 by jayeatman.
Quote:jayeatmanQuote:OutsideBath
We're using the train from Nice to Toulon, check times/prices on SNCF site
There is a tram service from the airport into the centre of Nice
You don't have to go into the centre of Nice unless you want to. You can catch a train direct to Toulon from Nice Saint-Augustin which is 800m from the airport. Admitedly there's only one direct train an hour.
Indeed you can, but as you say trains are less frequent than from Nice Ville. We happen to be staying in Nice before travelling to Toulon so works for us going into the centre.
Quote:OutsideBath
Is it certain that we have to rest Spencer for this game?
Having TCS up against Serin would be concerning.
I'm not concerned. He's a good player and trains with (and against) Spencer every day. He won't let Bath down.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
Is it certain that we have to rest Spencer for this game?
Having TCS up against Serin would be concerning.
I'm not concerned. He's a good player and trains with (and against) Spencer every day. He won't let Bath down.
I agree he won’t let Bath down, however Serin is a total live wire and we need the experience of Spencer to try and contain him.
Alfie must be absolutely champing at the bit - i'd be inclined to start him if he's 100% fit. Give him the opportunity to grow into the game, rather than ask him to do the current vogue for experienced finishers which requires your decision-making to be absolutely on-point from the second you get on the pitch.
I went on the SNCF site and it said a return was €124 each theres 2 of us
I hired a car instead for €85
I hired a car instead for €85
Quote:Woodpecker
I went on the SNCF site and it said a return was €124 each theres 2 of us
I hired a car instead for €85
I guess SNCF uses dynamic pricing as we only paid €56 total return for 2 of us, but booked as soon as the game was confirmed.
Don’t forget you’ll be paying toll charges as well.
Quote:My informed mate said Serin ran the Toulon side. Does Ben White get much game time? He's just extended his contract there. A very good back-up!!OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
Is it certain that we have to rest Spencer for this game?
Having TCS up against Serin would be concerning.
I'm not concerned. He's a good player and trains with (and against) Spencer every day. He won't let Bath down.
I agree he won’t let Bath down, however Serin is a total live wire and we need the experience of Spencer to try and contain him.
PS - can't believe those train prices. Thought it was only here that train travel was solely for the rich or OAP's.
Quote:theredseat
Doesn't Bayliss need this week off (I've lost track if he's covered by mandatory rest or not but has started last two)?
Having just re-read a reply to a question, about non English internationals playing in the Prem, I put to a contact of mine who was involved in the negotiations of the PRB regulations, yes Bayliss is on Mandatory rest this weekend unless player/club have applied for exemption.
Staddon or Green onto bench?
I think I would go all out with newcastle up next.
Santi
Big joe
Ollie
Mojo
Arundell
Russell
Tcs
Beno
Dunn
Tdt
Roux
Ewels
Hill
Underhill
Reid
Bench: kepu, fvw, griffin, malony, richards, le roux, butt, alfie
I expect green or staddon may be involved and not richards but I would go for ewans extra bulk and experience
Santi
Big joe
Ollie
Mojo
Arundell
Russell
Tcs
Beno
Dunn
Tdt
Roux
Ewels
Hill
Underhill
Reid
Bench: kepu, fvw, griffin, malony, richards, le roux, butt, alfie
I expect green or staddon may be involved and not richards but I would go for ewans extra bulk and experience
I feel oddly more stressed about this game than any other apart from the Prem final in the last three years. We really do need a statement win away against a big French team to show we can cut it at the next level.
Quote:hasta
I feel oddly more stressed about this game than any other apart from the Prem final in the last three years. We really do need a statement win away against a big French team to show we can cut it at the next level.
Agree we need a statement win, for me it’s a simple black and white situation. Win and we are real contenders, lose and we’re not.
Quote:hasta
I feel oddly more stressed about this game than any other apart from the Prem final in the last three years.
Semi at the Rec vs Bristol last year was the most stressful for me - even more than the final(s). Quite sanguine about this one.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
TEAM Bath Rugby:
1 Beno Obano
2 Tom Dunn
3 Vilikesa Sela
4 Quinn Roux
5 Ross Molony
6 Ted Hill
7 Sam Underhill
8 Alfie Barbeary
9 Tom Carr-Smith
10 Finn Russell
11 Henry Arundell
12 Cameron Redpath
13 Max Ojomoh
14 Joe Cokanasiga
15 Santi Carreras
Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Miles Reid, 21 Neil le Roux, 22 Louie Hennessey, 23 Arthur Green
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:12:11:50:37 by BathMatt53.
1 Beno Obano
2 Tom Dunn
3 Vilikesa Sela
4 Quinn Roux
5 Ross Molony
6 Ted Hill
7 Sam Underhill
8 Alfie Barbeary
9 Tom Carr-Smith
10 Finn Russell
11 Henry Arundell
12 Cameron Redpath
13 Max Ojomoh
14 Joe Cokanasiga
15 Santi Carreras
Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Miles Reid, 21 Neil le Roux, 22 Louie Hennessey, 23 Arthur Green
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:12:11:50:37 by BathMatt53.
Unusual (but festive and worthy) request from the Club:
Take your teddies to Toulon!
"As Bath travel to Toulon this weekend, our opponents will be doing their annual teddy throw at half-time.
In a show of support for children suffering homelessness, adversity and other challenges in life, the Stade Mayol will become home to hundreds of teddy bears and stuffed toys come half-time on Sunday.
An annual tradition for Toulon, supporters are being called upon to bring with them a stuffed animal, teddy bear or other cuddly toy to donate to the great cause by throwing their offering onto the pitch at half-time between Toulon and Bath Rugby.
For those travelling to Toulon to support the Blue, Black and White this weekend, we ask you to join in the tradition and pack a stuffed animal you are willing to part with to donate to children experiencing hardship.
If you aren't travelling but know a supporter who is, please spread the word and ask them to squeeze a teddy bear into their luggage!
We can't wait to see you on the road.
PG
Take your teddies to Toulon!
"As Bath travel to Toulon this weekend, our opponents will be doing their annual teddy throw at half-time.
In a show of support for children suffering homelessness, adversity and other challenges in life, the Stade Mayol will become home to hundreds of teddy bears and stuffed toys come half-time on Sunday.
An annual tradition for Toulon, supporters are being called upon to bring with them a stuffed animal, teddy bear or other cuddly toy to donate to the great cause by throwing their offering onto the pitch at half-time between Toulon and Bath Rugby.
For those travelling to Toulon to support the Blue, Black and White this weekend, we ask you to join in the tradition and pack a stuffed animal you are willing to part with to donate to children experiencing hardship.
If you aren't travelling but know a supporter who is, please spread the word and ask them to squeeze a teddy bear into their luggage!
We can't wait to see you on the road.
PG
Team Up:
Bath Rugby: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Vilikesa Sela, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Ross Molony, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Alfie Barbeary, 9 Tom Carr-Smith, 10 Finn Russell, Henry Arundell, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Max Ojomoh, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 15 Santi Carreras
Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Miles Reid, 21 Neil le Roux, 22 Louie Hennessey, 23 Arthur Green
PG
Bath Rugby: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Vilikesa Sela, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Ross Molony, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Alfie Barbeary, 9 Tom Carr-Smith, 10 Finn Russell, Henry Arundell, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Max Ojomoh, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 15 Santi Carreras
Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Miles Reid, 21 Neil le Roux, 22 Louie Hennessey, 23 Arthur Green
PG
Some very young lads in there, time to show what you are made of lads. COYB!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Toulon have Serin/White at SH against our very inexperienced SH’s which may cause us real problems.
Quote:OutsideBath
Toulon have Serin/White at SH against our very inexperienced SH’s which may cause us real problems.
We will see - Tom Carr-Smith is 24 in February so he should be old enough now to hold his own.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
Toulon have Serin/White at SH against our very inexperienced SH’s which may cause us real problems.
We will see - Tom Carr-Smith is 24 in February so he should be old enough now to hold his own.
If we can get real scrum dominance it could be a moot point anyway.
Good test for Sela up against a French international loosehead. Really hoping Barbeary goes well in this well.
Should be a close one.
Should be a close one.
RC Toulon: 15. Mathis Ferte, 14. Gaël Drean, 13. Nacho Brex, 12. Jérémy Sinzelle, 11. Setariki Tuicuvu, 10. Matéo Garcia, 9. Baptiste Serin, 1. Jean-Baptiste Gros, 2. Gianmarco Lucchesi, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Swan Rebbadj, 5. Brian Alainu'uese, 6. Lewis Ludlam, 7. Charles Ollivon (c), 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements: 16. Teddy Baubigny, 17. Leo Ametlla, 18. Dany Priso, 19. Corentin Mezou, 20. Esteban Abadie, 21. Ben White, 22. Mathieu Smaili, 23. Joe Quere Karaba
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Replacements: 16. Teddy Baubigny, 17. Leo Ametlla, 18. Dany Priso, 19. Corentin Mezou, 20. Esteban Abadie, 21. Ben White, 22. Mathieu Smaili, 23. Joe Quere Karaba
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Time for TCS to put his hand up as Spenny's long-term replacement. Honestly can't remember him ever having a bad game but this is a massive test. He is however the only non-international in that backline, which should help.
Big day too for Barbeary with Green now breathing down his neck. Needs to outshine his opposite number tomorrow.
Sela starting feels like right call with TdT and FvW either side of Kepu off the bench.
Apart from Serin and Brex, I don't recognise too many others in their backs. Whether that's significant, IDK.
Couldn't call this one. Hope the travelling supporters turn it up to 11. COYB.
Big day too for Barbeary with Green now breathing down his neck. Needs to outshine his opposite number tomorrow.
Sela starting feels like right call with TdT and FvW either side of Kepu off the bench.
Apart from Serin and Brex, I don't recognise too many others in their backs. Whether that's significant, IDK.
Couldn't call this one. Hope the travelling supporters turn it up to 11. COYB.
Quote:Barfboy
Couldn't call this one.
Neither can the bookies - looks about evens / 1 point between them.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
No Jaminet or Ribbans huge loss for Toulon. COYB. TCS will be fine with that Backrow around him and Finn at 10.
We haven't quite gone "full beans", but there aren't exactly any glaring weaknesses in that lineup.
Given that Toulon are missing a couple of key players as well this game feels like it's balanced on a knife edge.
One observation on our opponents, Dany Priso is covering tighthead from the bench, despite playing 99% of his rugby on the other side. He got absolutely demolished in the scrum last weekend against Edinburgh, so I reckon the Toulon coaches will want to keep Sinkler on the field as long as possible. If we can play smartly and tire out their starting props, then TdT and co should try to go for the jugular once their replacements come on.
Given that Toulon are missing a couple of key players as well this game feels like it's balanced on a knife edge.
One observation on our opponents, Dany Priso is covering tighthead from the bench, despite playing 99% of his rugby on the other side. He got absolutely demolished in the scrum last weekend against Edinburgh, so I reckon the Toulon coaches will want to keep Sinkler on the field as long as possible. If we can play smartly and tire out their starting props, then TdT and co should try to go for the jugular once their replacements come on.
Is Spencer rested? Is Griffin injured, as he's good enough for Wales, but seems to be 3rd choice for us (only thanks to Will Stuart out)? I can't say I've seen him get origamied in the scrum and seems to offer plenty in the loose when he has played for us.
Quote:tigersimon
Hennessey perhaps the surprise in the 23!
Or Sela ahead of Griffin?
I expected Chris Harris, Butt or De Glanville on the bench for their experience but always happy to trust JVG. Unsure why Dan Frost out of favour, guess he must be less than 100% fit
Quote:Francis AllenQuote:tigersimon
Hennessey perhaps the surprise in the 23!
Or Sela ahead of Griffin?
I expected Chris Harris, Butt or De Glanville on the bench for their experience but always happy to trust JVG. Unsure why Dan Frost out of favour, guess he must be less than 100% fit
I know Hennessey's been deployed on the wing a few times in recently, so could at a push cover 11-14 from the bench. Butt seems to be an out an out centre these days, as is Harris, so maybe Louie got the nod because he offers marginally more flexibility? There's not much between them in my books, but happy to see him get a run out in a big game.
Quote:Rawce
Is Spencer rested?
Yes he had to rest after the England games.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Francis Allen
Unsure why Dan Frost out of favour, guess he must be less than 100% fit
IMO Kepu offers more around the field, depending on what you think of the darts of both (I don't think there is much between them personally).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:P G Tips
Team Up:
Bath Rugby: 1 Beno Obano, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 Vilikesa Sela, 4 Quinn Roux, 5 Ross Molony, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Alfie Barbeary, 9 Tom Carr-Smith, 10 Finn Russell, Henry Arundell, 12 Cameron Redpath, 13 Max Ojomoh, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 15 Santi Carreras
Replacements: 16 Kepu Tuipulotu, 17 Francois van Wyk, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Miles Reid, 21 Neil le Roux, 22 Louie Hennessey, 23 Arthur Green
PG
That's a great 23
Very happy that Sela is starting. Brilliant to put trust in the young man
Quote:gaz59
[Very happy that Sela is starting. Brilliant to put trust in the young man
Kind of. I hope it is because Sela is exceptional or Griffin unavailable. As someone with a close affinity for Welsh rugby, it distresses me to think that Griffin can play for his country as 4th choice at his Club.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Rawce
Is Spencer rested?
Yes he had to rest after the England games.
Have to say this one size fits all for resting players is ridiculous. From a playing perspective Spencer hardly needed a mandatory rest, could understand it more for forwards who have a much tougher gig.
The 30-game limit is gonna be a problem, it's either just going to be laughably ignored or laughable because someone will miss a final because of it. It's waaaaaay too simplistic.
I don’t think the Player Load Management section of the PGB regulations are perfect but they are a start to looking at Player Welfare in the scheme of the whole PGB making England the best rugby union country in the world at international and club levels.
Someway to go at both levels! But at least the parties are working together and we actually saw some rotation during the AIs.
France are beginning to show what can happen when Clubs and the International team work together!
The 30 game limit maybe too simplistic but having minutes played totals and minutes by positions over complicates the regs. The committees are there to provide dispensation when needed.
Someway to go at both levels! But at least the parties are working together and we actually saw some rotation during the AIs.
France are beginning to show what can happen when Clubs and the International team work together!
The 30 game limit maybe too simplistic but having minutes played totals and minutes by positions over complicates the regs. The committees are there to provide dispensation when needed.
Biggest issue are 30 games for a front rower is a very different load than 30 games for a winger or full back.
That said, very few front rowers play more than 60 minutes a week.
That said, very few front rowers play more than 60 minutes a week.
We could help manage the load on Spencer by giving TCS more than 2 minutes each game to further his experience and not Dan Coleing Spencer into the ground as a result.
Quote:tigersimon
I don’t think the Player Load Management section of the PGB regulations are perfect but they are a start to looking at Player Welfare in the scheme of the whole PGB making England the best rugby union country in the world at international and club levels.
Someway to go at both levels! But at least the parties are working together and we actually saw some rotation during the AIs.
France are beginning to show what can happen when Clubs and the International team work together!
The 30 game limit maybe too simplistic but having minutes played totals and minutes by positions over complicates the regs. The committees are there to provide dispensation when needed.
I don't disagree that it's some progress, it's just way too simple.
Quote:A blunt game limit seems like a measure from the start of professionalism in the 90’s which total disregards the progress in sports/medical science in the preparation and recovery of athletes. Individualised training, playing and recovery programmes may well be too complicated for regulations, maybe that just shows that they shouldn’t be controlled via prescriptive regulations but using principle based regulation. That could provide players with a greater level of protect that a game limit without the possibility of fit players missing key matches.hastaQuote:tigersimon
I don’t think the Player Load Management section of the PGB regulations are perfect but they are a start to looking at Player Welfare in the scheme of the whole PGB making England the best rugby union country in the world at international and club levels.
Someway to go at both levels! But at least the parties are working together and we actually saw some rotation during the AIs.
France are beginning to show what can happen when Clubs and the International team work together!
The 30 game limit maybe too simplistic but having minutes played totals and minutes by positions over complicates the regs. The committees are there to provide dispensation when needed.
I don't disagree that it's some progress, it's just way too simple.
Test periods should be bespoke for each player.
Ridiculous that we have to test one of our most influential players for a champions cup game when he hardly needs the rest.
Ridiculous that we have to test one of our most influential players for a champions cup game when he hardly needs the rest.
Quote:I understand that concern for Wales with a starting player being 4th choice at his club, it doesn’t sound great. But look at who Griffin is behind at Bath - a SA regular, a Lions test player, an England A up and comer. Would it be any better is he was starting for one of the URC basement Welsh teams?OptimistQuote:gaz59
[Very happy that Sela is starting. Brilliant to put trust in the young man
Kind of. I hope it is because Sela is exceptional or Griffin unavailable. As someone with a close affinity for Welsh rugby, it distresses me to think that Griffin can play for his country as 4th choice at his Club.
I think he currently is 4th choice, but he has all the physical attributes and learning opportunities currently to push on next season, along with Sela.
Quote:OutsideBath
Test periods should be bespoke for each player.
Ridiculous that we have to test one of our most influential players for a champions cup game when he hardly needs the rest.
This. Understand the need for them but it's seems very unnecessary in instances like this. Penny for Spenny's thoughts too. Reckon he wanted a rest this week?
Quote:Barfboy
Reckon he wanted a rest this week?
There in lies part of the issue, players want to play.
You can understand Spencer not wanting to miss a return to his old club Saracens, Bath’s need to win home European games and then today’s attractive fixture against Toulon! So he would want to play all 3!
I can see the argument for saying why can’t he be rested against Newcastle instead, but you then start bringing in an exemption for X and an exemption for Y etc.
Really interesting selection, not convinced we have enough to get the win but lots to like.
Do feel the loss of stuart has scuppered our chances of fighting on two fronts- we have become v used to nearly always having dominance or at least parity up front.
Love the way we have managed the likes of kepu, sela, green, hennessey over the last few seasons amazing opportunity for them today. You only build depth and adaptability by giving these guys chances in big games.
Do feel the loss of stuart has scuppered our chances of fighting on two fronts- we have become v used to nearly always having dominance or at least parity up front.
Love the way we have managed the likes of kepu, sela, green, hennessey over the last few seasons amazing opportunity for them today. You only build depth and adaptability by giving these guys chances in big games.
Coka 3 from 3 high balls collected, all under pressure
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:14:16:26:44 by Which Tyler.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:14:16:26:44 by Which Tyler.
We’re making some daft decisions on our own ball and inviting them on.
Still everything to play for and hopefully our subs will get us over the line. Also feels like we have them for pace if we can work Santi or Arundell free
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Still everything to play for and hopefully our subs will get us over the line. Also feels like we have them for pace if we can work Santi or Arundell free
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
They look more fluid with ball in hand, our lineout work iffy too. TCS needs to kick better if we pursue that game plan. We're in touch. COYB 🇪🇪
Good even game but we really haven't fired a shot yet. First time I've seen Billy Sela and I'm impressed.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
And another (not very) special play at the line out goes wrong
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Got to grip our discipline- actually hitting them behind gain line but then giving soft penalties
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Suspect the defence coach has plenty for a horror show reel on Monday
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Trying to go wide too early- need to put Toulon on the back foot before doing so
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Do we really need 27 replays in each break in play?
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Le Roux on.
Let’s hope he can show something he hasn’t in any previous games
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Let’s hope he can show something he hasn’t in any previous games
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Where did that come from!!!!
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
God the drop off from Spencer is a cliff edge
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
ANOTHER bone headed penalty costs us a bonus point
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
So:
TCS not good enough. Sorry he just isn’t
Discipline not good enough.
Poor leadership and decision making by senior players
Redpath completely anonymous
Defence punctured too easily
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
TCS not good enough. Sorry he just isn’t
Discipline not good enough.
Poor leadership and decision making by senior players
Redpath completely anonymous
Defence punctured too easily
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Discipline and handling has cost us there. Not disastrous in the grand scheme but hardly a performance to put our name among the potential winners.
Strange to see such a high scoring game with so little attacking rugby played.
Strange to see such a high scoring game with so little attacking rugby played.
Well played Toulon but we really didn't fire at all apart from one piece of Mojo magic. Still its a point away in France which is never a bad thing. I don't wish to be harsh on TCS but it shows just how much our A game depends on Spenno.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Unusual to see a match where the TMO doesn’t get involved for any contentious decision and the ref doesn’t bother to even ask…
Not all on TCS as our maul defence, lineout first half and scrum were... not great. Albeit TCS definitely had one of his worst games. Probably a game for Will Butt rather than Cam.
Great try for Hennessey.
I remain concerned that our second rows are not big enough for big stage European Rugby.
Great try for Hennessey.
I remain concerned that our second rows are not big enough for big stage European Rugby.
Also didn’t think TCS made his case as a long term option. Too many kicks were off where they needed to be. He has a technique that looks like he’s kicking from low and behind him - not an expert on box kicking technique by any means but seems a way of kicking to not get charged down as opposed to landing a good one. He also seems to be looking for the right pass too often rather than ‘knowing’ where the ball needs to go.
Excellent interception though to be fair to him. Read that move perfectly.
Excellent interception though to be fair to him. Read that move perfectly.
Quote:dcsh
Unusual to see a match where the TMO doesn’t get involved for any contentious decision and the ref doesn’t bother to even ask…
I think its because Amashkueli is simply an excellent ref.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanatic
Well played Toulon but we really didn't fire at all apart from one piece of Mojo magic. Still its a point away in France which is never a bad thing. I don't wish to be harsh on TCS but it shows just how much our A game depends on Spenno.
Van der Linde getting injured was a big blow, given his early season form. TCS is a good third SH/bench player but I think we’ve seen enough to say that is probably his ceiling
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:theredseat
Discipline and handling has cost us there. Not disastrous in the grand scheme but hardly a performance to put our name among .
It could be🙄 We soon have two tough Prem matches to come which will see where we’re at. It seems we depend hugely on Ben Spencer
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:dcsh
Unusual to see a match where the TMO doesn’t get involved for any contentious decision and the ref doesn’t bother to even ask…
I think its because Amashkueli is simply an excellent ref.
Plus one. Really like him
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Toast and Marmite
Van der Linde getting injured was a big blow, given his early season form. TCS is a good third SH/bench player but I think we’ve seen enough to say that is probably his ceiling
Yes, based on his early season form he looked to have the edge on TCS. How is his recovery going?
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Toast and Marmite
Van der Linde getting injured was a big blow, given his early season form. TCS is a good third SH/bench player but I think we’ve seen enough to say that is probably his ceiling
Yes, based on his early season form he looked to have the edge on TCS. How is his recovery going?
He’s aiming to be available for the Edinburgh game
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Honestly, I'd give TCS the start against Newcastle though, give him the chance to bounce back. Spenny and Finn can be rested for that.
I don't think we should be too harsh on TCS. Sure, he wasn't at Ben's level, but the reason we lost was because we got properly beaten upfront.
One thing that really sticks out in this competition is the lack of TMO input compared to the Prem and internationals.
A number of clear forward passes not picked up, head contact not being checked and so on.
Part of me thinks, it's refreshing to let the game flow; part of me thinks, we should be aiming for consistency across all the key competitions.
A number of clear forward passes not picked up, head contact not being checked and so on.
Part of me thinks, it's refreshing to let the game flow; part of me thinks, we should be aiming for consistency across all the key competitions.
Quote:Mini Maximus
I don't think we should be too harsh on TCS. Sure, he wasn't at Ben's level, but the reason we lost was because we got properly beaten upfront.
Yes we did, and as stated already he’s a good player. But starting SH in a Champions Cup game he is not.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Mini Maximus
One thing that really sticks out in this competition is the lack of TMO input compared to the Prem and internationals.
A number of clear forward passes not picked up, head contact not being checked and so on.
Part of me thinks, it's refreshing to let the game flow; part of me thinks, we should be aiming for consistency across all the key competitions.
I prefer it, TMO should be used for serious foul play, egregious misses by ref and confirming tries.
I can’t stand it when they chalk off scores for a minor infringement that took place 5 phases earlier
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Not convinced we are getting great value out of Santi as to me he’s a much better FH than a FB and we already have a perfectly good FB in TdG
Quote:hasta
I remain concerned that our second rows are not big enough for big stage European Rugby.
Meant to agree with this earlier Hasta. I am also in the camp that thinks we’re missing a really gnarly, nasty lump on n the second row.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
On the upside, I thought Billy Sela looked the part in the scrums. Rock solid. Which is more than you can say for the pitch.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:hantssabre
Not convinced we are getting great value out of Santi as to me he’s a much better FH than a FB and we already have a perfectly good FB in TdG
You get the firm impression he'd be an excellent 9...
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
An OK performance by Bath, but well beaten in the end which is a shame as Toulon were there for the taking.
Bottom line is we are not good enough yet to compete in the latter stages of the champions cup.
Bottom line is we are not good enough yet to compete in the latter stages of the champions cup.
I was always expecting a LBP away there, they are having a decent season in the Top 14 especially at home, would have been nice to get the second LBP. We are still top of the group, and its in our hands to win the group still 10 points from the next two group matches and job done. Keep the faith
Quote:OutsideBath
An OK performance by Bath, but well beaten in the end which is a shame as Toulon were there for the taking.
Bottom line is we are not good enough yet to compete in the latter stages of the champions cup.
That’s a very definitive take considering no one actually wins at Toulon and we were in touching distance throughout with key players missing.
You could just as easily say we looked unbeatable after our first half against Munster.
Both of those propositions are OTT.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:OutsideBath
An OK performance by Bath, but well beaten in the end which is a shame as Toulon were there for the taking.
Bottom line is we are not good enough yet to compete in the latter stages of the champions cup.
We just won the Prem, but aye, we aren’t good enough.
J
Win our last two with at least one bp and we top the pool. Decent position to be in. Would have been nice to have a statement win though.
Quote:ChippenhamRomanQuote:OutsideBath
An OK performance by Bath, but well beaten in the end which is a shame as Toulon were there for the taking.
Bottom line is we are not good enough yet to compete in the latter stages of the champions cup.
We just won the Prem, but aye, we aren’t good enough.
J
Not saying we’re not a good team because we are and at times a joy to watch. I’ll be disappointed if we don’t make the PL final again this season.
However I watch a lot of Top 14 rugby and Toulon in particular. They are not that good a side and we should have expected a 5 pt win today to prove we are the real deal in Europe. We didn’t.
Toulon haven't lost at home this season and are 3rd in the Top14. The data suggests they are a very good side and getting a TBP is not a disaster.
They said on commentary that Toulon haven’t lost at home for 8 months so they can’t be that bad!
I think we have become a little bit spoiled by our dominance in the Prem.
Winning away games is very difficult in rugby, let alone in a place like Toulon or Leinster last season (not helped by Beno's double yellow). It's so difficult most teams don't even try to win on the road!
I do agree that a statement win would have been huge for our confidence going forward, but we just weren't at our usual standard today and still scored four tries and secured a bonus point.
What's frustrating is that we could have won if we'd played at out best, but we made lots of handling errors, were second best at the scrum/maul/lineout, failed to exit the 22 well on a number of occasions and conceded some brainless penalties.
PS We lost away to Brive in the pool stages of the 1997-1998 tournament and look how that turned out.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:14:18:17:31 by Mini Maximus.
Winning away games is very difficult in rugby, let alone in a place like Toulon or Leinster last season (not helped by Beno's double yellow). It's so difficult most teams don't even try to win on the road!
I do agree that a statement win would have been huge for our confidence going forward, but we just weren't at our usual standard today and still scored four tries and secured a bonus point.
What's frustrating is that we could have won if we'd played at out best, but we made lots of handling errors, were second best at the scrum/maul/lineout, failed to exit the 22 well on a number of occasions and conceded some brainless penalties.
PS We lost away to Brive in the pool stages of the 1997-1998 tournament and look how that turned out.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:14:18:17:31 by Mini Maximus.
JvG has raise standards and expectations to the extent that we now feel disappointment to come away with ‘only’ a try bonus point at Toulon!
Other results in this pool have left things wide open with use having a sight advantage going into the second half of the pool stages.
Other results in this pool have left things wide open with use having a sight advantage going into the second half of the pool stages.
Bit of a curates egg of a game, no particular rugby actually played it felt like, but 70 odd points between us.
I’m not overly concerned, feels like a game you learn more from by losing. They were especially savvy at the end, something I feel we lack sometimes (made more obvious when Spencer isn’t playing).
Still very much in the chase, we should get what’s needed although Castre suddenly put on a show and have me worried.
Word for the ref, thought he was excellent and kept the game running. Lot of nonsense and gamesmanship in the first half that he dealt with well.
I’m not overly concerned, feels like a game you learn more from by losing. They were especially savvy at the end, something I feel we lack sometimes (made more obvious when Spencer isn’t playing).
Still very much in the chase, we should get what’s needed although Castre suddenly put on a show and have me worried.
Word for the ref, thought he was excellent and kept the game running. Lot of nonsense and gamesmanship in the first half that he dealt with well.
I thought we played without precision.
Over powered in the pack.....
Need to beat Castres away and Edinburgh at home. I watched Castres v Edinburgh both can be beaten
Over powered in the pack.....
Need to beat Castres away and Edinburgh at home. I watched Castres v Edinburgh both can be beaten
Also Finn seems to be having a very quiet period at the moment.....
Listened to it on the radio, which is a good way of getting a very simplistic view uncluttered by too much individual detail. I suspect they were quite far from the pitch too, because Alfie (distinctive haircut) got a lot more name-checks than anyone else without much overall praise). So the simplistic view was - lineout was a liability; slightly second best at scrum; Toulon able to power up at will when they needed points; imprecision of handling/passing.
Quote:hasta
I thought Alfie had a good game!! Loads of carries.
Yep - I hope he gets a run of games now, was really aggressive in the carry
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
I thought we played without precision.
Over powered in the pack.....
Need to beat Castres away and Edinburgh at home. I watched Castres v Edinburgh both can be beaten
Castres were mediocre first half but improved quite a bit second - Edinburgh were very poor
Disappointing, but Toulon were very good. Sinkler was excellent. Their set piece also. As was Serin. We gave it everything- and when Hennessy scored to bring us back to a point behind, I thought we’d then power on with our bench bringing it home. Wasn’t to be- they played the last quarter very smartly.
Was a little disappointed with our refusal to play at all in our own half. Weather was great and their pack were on top, so unlike versus Munster, I don’t think we needed to kick so much or be so rigid. We had opportunities to play and move into space, and give Joe, Santi and Arundell a run, but we constantly chose to either punt it downfield or slow the game and box kick. I’d be happier with losing if we’d gone down swinging. Having said that, the tactics did keep us right in the game until the game’s last play.
As an aside- Hennessy's try was interesting and really well taken. It’s a tiny data set (1), and of course Mojo won us the Prem last year, but it does limit our running threat in midfield. Both are great ball players, who step well, but without Lawrence the midfield is quite one paced. Butt or Hennessy or even Harris running at pace outside of one of Mojo or Cam might be more threatening.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Was a little disappointed with our refusal to play at all in our own half. Weather was great and their pack were on top, so unlike versus Munster, I don’t think we needed to kick so much or be so rigid. We had opportunities to play and move into space, and give Joe, Santi and Arundell a run, but we constantly chose to either punt it downfield or slow the game and box kick. I’d be happier with losing if we’d gone down swinging. Having said that, the tactics did keep us right in the game until the game’s last play.
As an aside- Hennessy's try was interesting and really well taken. It’s a tiny data set (1), and of course Mojo won us the Prem last year, but it does limit our running threat in midfield. Both are great ball players, who step well, but without Lawrence the midfield is quite one paced. Butt or Hennessy or even Harris running at pace outside of one of Mojo or Cam might be more threatening.
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:nick holder
I was always expecting a LBP away there, they are having a decent season in the Top 14 especially at home, would have been nice to get the second LBP. We are still top of the group, and its in our hands to win the group still 10 points from the next two group matches and job done. Keep the faith
Hey Guys, as Nick says we are top of our group, it's all to play for !
Quote:Optimist
Listened to it on the radio, which is a good way of getting a very simplistic view uncluttered by too much individual detail. I suspect they were quite far from the pitch too, because Alfie (distinctive haircut) got a lot more name-checks than anyone else without much overall praise). So the simplistic view was - lineout was a liability; slightly second best at scrum; Toulon able to power up at will when they needed points; imprecision of handling/passing.
The lineout definitely was a liability, but I thought the scrum wasn’t too bad although never dominant.
Our attack doesn’t seemed to have recovered from losing LB and was pretty one dimensional for most of the game.
Surprised at how poor Zach Mercer was, his only meaningful contribution was to give away a dumb penalty for blocking. A shadow of the player that left Bath.
Still in shock that we didn’t beat Toulon.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:14:20:56:55 by OutsideBath.
First things first, getting a bonus point is an important achievement, just feels a bit galling as we should have closed the game out to get two.
On the positives:
- Sela looked totally unfazed going up against a massive French pack, not many 20 year old tightheads could have held their own in the same manner.
- Green looks genuinely ready to compete with Alfie and Jaco to be our starting 8.
- Joe was immense in the air, real improvement from him
- Arundell didn't get many opportunities in attack, but was very impressive defensively, made several telling interventions
On the negatives:
- Didn't seem to have an answer for their power game, at some point we needed to up the tempo
- Lineout was poor (and not for the first time), shows how important Ewels is
- Felt like we waited too long to bring on the subs, whilst Toulon weren't pulling away on the scoreboard they still had all the momentum in that second half, left our bomb squad with too much to do to turn the tide
- Lot of critics of TCS on the board, I actually think he played fine. The player I feel sorry for is Le Roux, his only significant contribution was slicing that box kick horribly into touch, when really it should have gone an extra 20+ metres downfield. Sadly it gave Toulon the field position to put us in that final headlock and deny us our 2nd bonus point. A harsh lesson to learn for Neil, will need to take his medicine and come back stronger.
In terms of where it leaves us, anything less than 10 points from our final 2 games will leave us struggling. When looking at the other group leaders:
Glasgow - 10 points - They've got Clermont away and Saracens at home, will need them to lose one of them, so maybe finishing on 15/16 points?
Toulouse - 6 points - I fully expect them to bounce back strongly, I think they'll finish on 16 points
Stormers - 9 points - All depends on whether they follow the recent South African trend and send an academy side for Quins away. If they do that then I don't think they'll get above 14 points. If they take it seriously they could get to 18.
Leinster - 9 points - We need La Rochelle to get another one over on their arch rivals, but I don't see it happening, so they look like they could get to 18/19 points
Saints - 10 points - Can't see them beating Bordeaux away, but should hammer Scarlets, 15/16 points seems likely
Bordeaux - 10 points - Would need Bristol to do us a favour in the final game, don't think they will though, I'd say they could get to the maximum 20 points.
So realistically the best seeding we can hope for now is 4th, which would likely mean an away semi final against one of the big guns.
On the positives:
- Sela looked totally unfazed going up against a massive French pack, not many 20 year old tightheads could have held their own in the same manner.
- Green looks genuinely ready to compete with Alfie and Jaco to be our starting 8.
- Joe was immense in the air, real improvement from him
- Arundell didn't get many opportunities in attack, but was very impressive defensively, made several telling interventions
On the negatives:
- Didn't seem to have an answer for their power game, at some point we needed to up the tempo
- Lineout was poor (and not for the first time), shows how important Ewels is
- Felt like we waited too long to bring on the subs, whilst Toulon weren't pulling away on the scoreboard they still had all the momentum in that second half, left our bomb squad with too much to do to turn the tide
- Lot of critics of TCS on the board, I actually think he played fine. The player I feel sorry for is Le Roux, his only significant contribution was slicing that box kick horribly into touch, when really it should have gone an extra 20+ metres downfield. Sadly it gave Toulon the field position to put us in that final headlock and deny us our 2nd bonus point. A harsh lesson to learn for Neil, will need to take his medicine and come back stronger.
In terms of where it leaves us, anything less than 10 points from our final 2 games will leave us struggling. When looking at the other group leaders:
Glasgow - 10 points - They've got Clermont away and Saracens at home, will need them to lose one of them, so maybe finishing on 15/16 points?
Toulouse - 6 points - I fully expect them to bounce back strongly, I think they'll finish on 16 points
Stormers - 9 points - All depends on whether they follow the recent South African trend and send an academy side for Quins away. If they do that then I don't think they'll get above 14 points. If they take it seriously they could get to 18.
Leinster - 9 points - We need La Rochelle to get another one over on their arch rivals, but I don't see it happening, so they look like they could get to 18/19 points
Saints - 10 points - Can't see them beating Bordeaux away, but should hammer Scarlets, 15/16 points seems likely
Bordeaux - 10 points - Would need Bristol to do us a favour in the final game, don't think they will though, I'd say they could get to the maximum 20 points.
So realistically the best seeding we can hope for now is 4th, which would likely mean an away semi final against one of the big guns.
Quote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:joethefanatic
Well played Toulon but we really didn't fire at all apart from one piece of Mojo magic. Still its a point away in France which is never a bad thing. I don't wish to be harsh on TCS but it shows just how much our A game depends on Spenno.
Van der Linde getting injured was a big blow, given his early season form. TCS is a good third SH/bench player but I think we’ve seen enough to say that is probably his ceiling
Nonsense. TCS had a very good game
One possibly two clearance kicks from 22 not deep enough and one time in second half with turnover ball just outside our 22 he kicked long with at least 5 outside him
But on the plus side. His distribution and decision from breakdown always very good
His try saving hold on on stroke of half time brilliant
His break and dummy to set up our third was great
Our loss today was not because of him
Felt like a strange game - like normal patterns didn't apply. For most of the game it didn't feel like either team would score yet it was oddly predictable when they would.
Toulon are a good side - obviously not the Toulon of old - and they have a very good home record. Felt like needed to play like it was a cup final and we just didn't - errors made and oddly flat.
There were food individual performances amongst it but nobody rescued us from our own malaise, however well they played. Not that TCS was bad but it felt like a game where we needed a Spencer.
Toulon are a good side - obviously not the Toulon of old - and they have a very good home record. Felt like needed to play like it was a cup final and we just didn't - errors made and oddly flat.
There were food individual performances amongst it but nobody rescued us from our own malaise, however well they played. Not that TCS was bad but it felt like a game where we needed a Spencer.
So, we apparently need 10 points & that will make us only 4th seeds with a really difficult match. To get 5 points away to Castres will presumably be far from easy anyway. So we are immediately up against it! A shame after such high hopes following our previous two games though I did see warning signs in the 2nd half against Munster.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:14:23:09:50 by Bath Hammer.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:14:23:09:50 by Bath Hammer.
I don't really get the pessimism. We're in a very competitive group and have played a decent side in Munster who we comfortably beat and a French side who very rarely lose at home who duly beat us. All as expected. There are stronger sides than Bath in this tournament and luck plays its part too given the 4 match format. Plenty of evidence already that with some of the French and South African sides you don't know what to expect in terms of the sides that they put out but we knew this before the tournament started. Castres can definitely beat us over there but we have a decent chance, whereas I'd expect us to get 5 points at home to Edinburgh. Last year we luckily scraped 5th and a place in the Challenge Cup. It's a very competitive tournament, subject to the vagaries of team selection. Not so long back we went God knows how many European games without winning one and on the back of 2 seasons of actually being a decent side we have people seeing qualification outside the top 4 seedings as under-achievement. The bookies had us 10 days ago as 4th or 5th favourites - that's not changed.
In order to get deep into this competition it seems you need to have a hugely powerful pack.The way were pushed over the like on several occasions on Sunday makes one query whether we are lacking slightly in that regard. I wonder how many of those forwards are in the French international team?
Bit of research on Toulon pack
Gros - French International, played in this season’s AIs.
Lucchesi - Italian Hooker. Last played for Italy in 6N.
Sinckler - no research required
Rebbadj - French international, last played for France in 20/21 season.
Alainu'uese - Samoa international, last played for them RWC23. 27 games for Toulon last season.
Ludlam - no research required
Ollivon - French international, played in this season’s AIs.
Mercer - no research required.
3 starting French internationals (2 current)
Bench
Baubigny - French international, last played for France in 23/24 season.
Ametlla - France U20 experience.
Priso - French international, last played for France in 22/23 season.
Mezou - France U20 experience.
Abadie - French international, last played against NZ in the Summer.
Gros - French International, played in this season’s AIs.
Lucchesi - Italian Hooker. Last played for Italy in 6N.
Sinckler - no research required
Rebbadj - French international, last played for France in 20/21 season.
Alainu'uese - Samoa international, last played for them RWC23. 27 games for Toulon last season.
Ludlam - no research required
Ollivon - French international, played in this season’s AIs.
Mercer - no research required.
3 starting French internationals (2 current)
Bench
Baubigny - French international, last played for France in 23/24 season.
Ametlla - France U20 experience.
Priso - French international, last played for France in 22/23 season.
Mezou - France U20 experience.
Abadie - French international, last played against NZ in the Summer.
Some quite harsh assessments on here.
Away to toulon who don't really lose at home , without stuart, ewels, pepper, bayliss, jaco, spencer, lawrence, muir.... was always a big ask and we nearly came away with 2 BP's. Frustrating to concede with last play of the game and we certainly didn't play with the precision and discipline to pull off the win.
I thought tcs did fine and agree it's a good shout hasta to give him another start against Newcastle.
Sela stood up incredibly well. Barbeary back on form. Coko excellent aerially. Ted v good. Lovely try from hennessey. Definitely some positives.
Agree bench was deployed a little late perhaps though our scrum troubles seem to coincide with those changes?
Away to toulon who don't really lose at home , without stuart, ewels, pepper, bayliss, jaco, spencer, lawrence, muir.... was always a big ask and we nearly came away with 2 BP's. Frustrating to concede with last play of the game and we certainly didn't play with the precision and discipline to pull off the win.
I thought tcs did fine and agree it's a good shout hasta to give him another start against Newcastle.
Sela stood up incredibly well. Barbeary back on form. Coko excellent aerially. Ted v good. Lovely try from hennessey. Definitely some positives.
Agree bench was deployed a little late perhaps though our scrum troubles seem to coincide with those changes?
To quote JVG: 'never too high, never too low'. I thought that we were outplayed on the day, and Toulon deserved to win. As said above, Toulon are not an easy side to beat at home - they hardly ever lose there.
The forward pack was second best overall (despite a couple of really good performances from Ted Hill etc) and this was never going to make TCS or Finn look great as they always seemed to be under some pressure.
In summary, no need to panic, they will be ready go again next week in the Prem and next month in Europe. As for those above who are concerned about playing a tough side in the knockouts, isn't that the point of the knockouts (i.e. you will always play some really tough matches)?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
The forward pack was second best overall (despite a couple of really good performances from Ted Hill etc) and this was never going to make TCS or Finn look great as they always seemed to be under some pressure.
In summary, no need to panic, they will be ready go again next week in the Prem and next month in Europe. As for those above who are concerned about playing a tough side in the knockouts, isn't that the point of the knockouts (i.e. you will always play some really tough matches)?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Does anybody else hope that JvG had a quiet word with Kyle Sinckler over the weekend about joining Bath next season? Could be a great fit if he does have RWC ambitions.
Quote:Bath Hammer
In order to get deep into this competition it seems you need to have a hugely powerful pack.The way were pushed over the like on several occasions on Sunday makes one query whether we are lacking slightly in that regard. I wonder how many of those forwards are in the French international team?
Have to say it didn’t feel like we were overpowered at the game, Toulon did deserve to win but not convinced that was entirely due to us losing the forward battle.
We shouldn’t overstate Toulon’s home record, they haven’t played Bordeaux or Toulouse at home yet, they’ll likely lose both those games. We are Bath rugby the Premiership champions and should expect to win at Toulon. Really disappointing that we didn’t.
We are clearly in a very competitive group where all the teams are engaged. The bonus point may prove to be very valuable. It's a shame that the likes of Bayonne, Pau, Bulls and even Clermont seem disinterested.
Quote:Benisjammin
Does anybody else hope that JvG had a quiet word with Kyle Sinckler over the weekend about joining Bath next season? Could be a great fit if he does have RWC ambitions.
Definitely!
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Bath Hammer
In order to get deep into this competition it seems you need to have a hugely powerful pack.The way were pushed over the like on several occasions on Sunday makes one query whether we are lacking slightly in that regard. I wonder how many of those forwards are in the French international team?
Have to say it didn’t feel like we were overpowered at the game, Toulon did deserve to win but not convinced that was entirely due to us losing the forward battle.
We shouldn’t overstate Toulon’s home record, they haven’t played Bordeaux or Toulouse at
home yet, they’ll likely lose both those games. We are Bath rugby the Premiership champions and should expect to win at Toulon. Really disappointing that we didn’t.
I agree. We tend to forget how far we’ve come, our amazing player strength & our expectations. That doesn’t mean we’re critical, just that we have to take every opportunity at the present time. Inters to note that Toulon’s apparently amazing home record doesn’t include those two teams who we would hope to be up with.
My comments on a few of the common themes on 'Ere so far:
TCS - we didn't lose because of him. He did ok but isn't Ben Spencer. Few are. We missed his rugby IQ/nous.
Oppo - played very well. Given their home record we prob needed them to have an off day to see it through. They didn't. No shame in losing that one.
Line-out - Ewels a big miss but I have to say didn't Molony arrive as something of a line-out specialist? I know it's more nuanced than blaming the hooker or the caller but he doesn't strike me as patticularly dominant in that area? Happy to be proved wrong with stats.
Big Joe - cops a lot of flak but was great in the air. Hope he continues to improve in this area.
We'll go all out in remaining games and we still have a great chance. You can't win them all (unless you were in that Toulon team that won 3 on the bounce).
TCS - we didn't lose because of him. He did ok but isn't Ben Spencer. Few are. We missed his rugby IQ/nous.
Oppo - played very well. Given their home record we prob needed them to have an off day to see it through. They didn't. No shame in losing that one.
Line-out - Ewels a big miss but I have to say didn't Molony arrive as something of a line-out specialist? I know it's more nuanced than blaming the hooker or the caller but he doesn't strike me as patticularly dominant in that area? Happy to be proved wrong with stats.
Big Joe - cops a lot of flak but was great in the air. Hope he continues to improve in this area.
We'll go all out in remaining games and we still have a great chance. You can't win them all (unless you were in that Toulon team that won 3 on the bounce).
My worry for TCS is that he could be the 9 equivalent of Orlando Bailey and perhaps not develop as much as his potential by always being in the shadow of such a key player in how Bath play - Spencer and Finn are so vital, and therefore play so much, that any young understudy will struggle to get a good chunk of meaningful game time. I wouldn't swap Ben or Finn for anyone, but I guess that's the possible downside of having them.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Quote:Bath HammerQuote:Benisjammin
Does anybody else hope that JvG had a quiet word with Kyle Sinckler over the weekend about joining Bath next season? Could be a great fit if he does have RWC ambitions.
Definitely!
Was really impressed by him, looked absolutely rock solid in the scrum and had some nice moments ball in hand, spotted the gap to set up one of Toulon's tries.
Quote:boozeboozebooze
I reckon the Toulon coaches will want to keep Sinkler on the field as long as possible
Also worth noting that he played the full 80 minutes, Priso ended up coming on at loosehead and their number 17 didn't get on the field. A serious effort from Sinkler.
Quote:Outside Bath
We shouldn’t overstate Toulon’s home record, they haven’t played Bordeaux or Toulouse at home yet,
As is usual, the facts tend not to support such assumptions.
In the 11 matches played this season, Bordeaux have lost 4 out of 6 away matches (to Racing, Stade Francais, Toulouse and Montpellier);
Toulouse's record is no better losing 3 out of 5 away matches (Montpellier, Bayonne, Pau).
Why should we assume either of these teams would beat Toulon at home?
It was a very good watch though and I was impressed by your 9.
Shock, surprise he wasn't as good as Spencer your Captain, main leader and 9 with a decade plus of experience in top flight rugby but judged purely on how he played I though he was very good.
I really enjoyed his read of the wrap-around play where he intercepted the ball.
Sinckler was really great this weekend but he was not last weekend v Edinburgh. Effort because he was in the shop window?
Shock, surprise he wasn't as good as Spencer your Captain, main leader and 9 with a decade plus of experience in top flight rugby but judged purely on how he played I though he was very good.
I really enjoyed his read of the wrap-around play where he intercepted the ball.
Sinckler was really great this weekend but he was not last weekend v Edinburgh. Effort because he was in the shop window?
Having now slept on this, we should be delighted to be top of our group after facing Munster and Toulon. If we can't beat Edinburgh at home then we don't deserve to go through and Castres is more winnable than Toulon.
That said, some questions have been raised about our pack and we know the French teams and Leinster have even more strength in depth than we do. It might be wise not to be sucked into a forward battle if we are lucky enough to face Toulouse, Bordeaux or Leinster in later rounds.
That said, some questions have been raised about our pack and we know the French teams and Leinster have even more strength in depth than we do. It might be wise not to be sucked into a forward battle if we are lucky enough to face Toulouse, Bordeaux or Leinster in later rounds.
Mini Maximus
I think that is a very balanced view.
As you say if we can't beat Edinburgh at home then the competition is too warm for us.
As I say above I watched the Castres v Edinburgh match and both were eminently beatable.
I think that is a very balanced view.
As you say if we can't beat Edinburgh at home then the competition is too warm for us.
As I say above I watched the Castres v Edinburgh match and both were eminently beatable.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Mini Maximus
I think that is a very balanced view.
As you say if we can't beat Edinburgh at home then the competition is too warm for us.
As I say above I watched the Castres v Edinburgh match and both were eminently beatable.
Can’t really use the Castres v Edinburgh as a guide because Edinburgh rotated 11 players which seems a strange decision.
Toulon struggled to beat Castres at home so if we rate Toulon then Castres away will be hard.
Quote:OutsideBath
Edinburgh rotated 11 players which seems a strange decision.
It seems to be totally normal in both Euro competitions - go strong at home and send out a B team on the road. It has made for some fairly boring (uneven) matches IMO. Someone made an interesting suggestion on the Sarries site, which is award more points for an away win.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
Edinburgh rotated 11 players which seems a strange decision.
It seems to be totally normal in both Euro competitions - go strong at home and send out a B team on the road. It has made for some fairly boring (uneven) matches IMO. Someone made an interesting suggestion on the Sarries site, which is award more points for an away win.
Or you could just restrict the number of teams that can qualify for the knockout so you don't get this absurd situation where one win can be enough to go through.
Same as the Football world cup. We've just diluted the quality and then are surprised when the quality goes down.
Quote:The BearQuote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBath
Edinburgh rotated 11 players which seems a strange decision.
It seems to be totally normal in both Euro competitions - go strong at home and send out a B team on the road. It has made for some fairly boring (uneven) matches IMO. Someone made an interesting suggestion on the Sarries site, which is award more points for an away win.
Or you could just restrict the number of teams that can qualify for the knockout so you don't get this absurd situation where one win can be enough to go through.
Same as the Football world cup. We've just diluted the quality and then are surprised when the quality goes down.
Yes completely agree OB, seems ridiculous that nearly every team in the Prem gets into the top Euro comp. Looking at some of the empty seats on the TV at the weekend it appears that a lot of paying supporters feel the same.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Good points Outside Bath but it was 5 - 0 at half time
Solution seems to be to keep the same system and only play 40 min games then?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Having seen the game in person and rewatched it on TV last night...
1. Stade Mayol is a fortress. Whoever the opposition, Toulon will be favorites to win there.
2. Toulon played a 10-man game very well and out-muscled us. We never earned the right to spread it wide. They deserved to win.
3. For sure we missed Spencer but I don't think any individual played badly. Big Joe was excellent.
4. One sliced kick from Neil le Roux gifted them their last try and cost us an LBP which in a close group might ultimately cost us.
5. It has been remarked previously we are a little understocked on the lock front. Perhaps unsurprisingly given Roux and Molony are both Irish, a Munster fan remarked the we couldn't hope to compete in Europe with a couple of 'journeymen'. We missed Ewels for sure but our overcomplicated lineout plays confuse us as much as the opposition.
6. We did OK in the scrums but IMHO TdT should have started. Toulon were so confident in their scrum that for one play they had 10 at 9, 9 at 8 and 8 in the midfield.
7. A excellent game to watch, with the result uncertain until the last 5 mins.
8. We should be pleased we scored 4 tries against them.
9. Conceding at the death was disappointing, I'd have been happy with the LBP and TBP.
10. Top of the group and all to play for, our destiny is still in our own hands.
BATH supporter since 1975
Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:16:11:00:18 by jayeatman.
1. Stade Mayol is a fortress. Whoever the opposition, Toulon will be favorites to win there.
2. Toulon played a 10-man game very well and out-muscled us. We never earned the right to spread it wide. They deserved to win.
3. For sure we missed Spencer but I don't think any individual played badly. Big Joe was excellent.
4. One sliced kick from Neil le Roux gifted them their last try and cost us an LBP which in a close group might ultimately cost us.
5. It has been remarked previously we are a little understocked on the lock front. Perhaps unsurprisingly given Roux and Molony are both Irish, a Munster fan remarked the we couldn't hope to compete in Europe with a couple of 'journeymen'. We missed Ewels for sure but our overcomplicated lineout plays confuse us as much as the opposition.
6. We did OK in the scrums but IMHO TdT should have started. Toulon were so confident in their scrum that for one play they had 10 at 9, 9 at 8 and 8 in the midfield.
7. A excellent game to watch, with the result uncertain until the last 5 mins.
8. We should be pleased we scored 4 tries against them.
9. Conceding at the death was disappointing, I'd have been happy with the LBP and TBP.
10. Top of the group and all to play for, our destiny is still in our own hands.
BATH supporter since 1975
Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:16:11:00:18 by jayeatman.
Thanks Jayeatman
Does make a difference with words from someone who was there.....
The Pilou Pilou man is something else......one of the lines I think is translated as something like "They come from the seas to rip our babies from their mother's breast".....blimey!
Does make a difference with words from someone who was there.....
The Pilou Pilou man is something else......one of the lines I think is translated as something like "They come from the seas to rip our babies from their mother's breast".....blimey!
Quote:jayeatman
Having seen the game in person and rewatched it on TV last night...
1. Stade Mayol is a fortress. Whoever the opposition, Toulon will be favorites to win there.
2. Toulon played a 10-man game very well and out-muscled us. We never earned the right to spread it wide. They deserved to win.
3. For sure we missed Spencer but I don't think any individual played badly. Big Joe was excellent.
4. One sliced kick from Neil le Roux gifted them their last try and cost us an LBP which in a close group might ultimately cost us.
5. It has been remarked previously we are a little understocked on the lock front. Perhaps unsurprisingly given Roux and Molony are both Irish, a Munster fan remarked the we couldn't hope to compete in Europe with a couple of 'journeymen'. We missed Ewels for sure but our overcomplicated lineout plays confuse us as much as the opposition.
6. We did OK in the scrums but IMHO TdT should have started. Toulon were so confident in their scrum that for one play they had 10 at 9, 9 at 8 and 8 in the midfield.
7. A excellent game to watch, with the result uncertain until the last 5 mins.
8. We should be pleased we scored 4 tries against them.
9. Conceding at the death was disappointing, I'd have been happy with the LBP and TBP.
10. Top of the group and all to play for, our destiny is still in our own hands.
Hard to disagree with any of this.
And apologies if anyone has mentioned this and I haven't seen it but Charles Ollivon is just an outsanding rugby player
[quote The Bear][quote BathMatt53][quote OutsideBath]
Or you could just restrict the number of teams that can qualify for the knockout so you don't get this absurd situation where one win can be enough to go through.
Same as the Football world cup. We've just diluted the quality and then are surprised when the quality goes down.[/quote]
Sports administrators fail to understand that they could actually create 2 really good competitions, both of which are worth winning, rather than just focussing on a single competition that have every side in it. They totally fail to understand what fans want.
Coupled with the euro matches being on yet another subscription channel, what was the greatest club tournament in the world is just something that no longer grabs the attention and sucks you in.
Or you could just restrict the number of teams that can qualify for the knockout so you don't get this absurd situation where one win can be enough to go through.
Same as the Football world cup. We've just diluted the quality and then are surprised when the quality goes down.[/quote]
Sports administrators fail to understand that they could actually create 2 really good competitions, both of which are worth winning, rather than just focussing on a single competition that have every side in it. They totally fail to understand what fans want.
Coupled with the euro matches being on yet another subscription channel, what was the greatest club tournament in the world is just something that no longer grabs the attention and sucks you in.
Quote:A step at a time:boozeboozebooze
So realistically the best seeding we can hope for now is 4th, which would likely mean an away semi final against one of the big guns.
Win our home game v Edinburgh.
Beat Castres away.
Win our group and we get to be at least 4th seed.
Home R16
Home QF
Favourites for group winners are likely Glasgow, Leinster & Bordeaux.
If it goes with home advantage (and it normally does), away SF in Scotland, Ireland or France!
Anything can happen, but I'd fancy us to win in Scotland, not so much France or Ireland!
Quote:jayeatmanQuote:A step at a time:boozeboozebooze
So realistically the best seeding we can hope for now is 4th, which would likely mean an away semi final against one of the big guns.
Win our home game v Edinburgh.
Beat Castres away.
Win our group and we get to be at least 4th seed.
Home R16
Home QF
Favourites for group winners are likely Glasgow, Leinster & Bordeaux.
If it goes with home advantage (and it normally does), away SF in Scotland, Ireland or France!
Anything can happen, but I'd fancy us to win in Scotland, not so much France or Ireland!
A fair summary, although remember it's Castres next, then Edinburgh is the final group game.
Unfortunately for Bath (but great for the neutral) our group looks like it'll go right down to the final set of fixtures, we won't benefit from a dead rubber come January. Even if we get 5 points away at Castres (which is looking like an increasingly tough fixture), I'd expect the table to look something like this after round 3:
1st Bath - 11 points
2nd Toulon - 10 points
3rd Edinburgh - 10 points
4th Castres - 6 points
5th Munster - 5/6 points
6th Gloucester - 5 points
Then in the final round Toulon travel to Gloucester (who will probably be out of contention) so could well get another 5 points.
Munster host Castres, so one of them is going to finish on 10 points minimum.
Our Edinburgh game could be see the winner top the group and the loser finish 3rd (or even 4th).
Is it too early to start looking at what happens if teams are level on points? Do they look at head-to-head next? Points difference? Tries scored?
Beating Castres is looking like a must-win game
It doesn't look like 12 points will be enough to go through as I see it
It doesn't look like 12 points will be enough to go through as I see it
Quote:With 4 out of 6 qualifying? I'd be surprised. As to sorting out placing, it's on the competition website. Can't be bothered to re-check but think it comes down to points difference? Whatever criteria they use the fact that you don't play every team home and away means it's unlikely to be fair, eg head to head, if indeed you can use it, places the advantage with whichever team was at home. I share the general underlying view that the competition is nothing like as good as it was when it was the Heineken Cup.gaz59
Beating Castres is looking like a must-winritrris game
It doesn't look like 12 points will be enough to go through as I see it
Quote:TomReaganQuote:With 4 out of 6 qualifying?gaz59
Beating Castres is looking like a must-winritrris game
It doesn't look like 12 points will be enough to go through as I see it
I think the point is that whilst 4 teams qualify, the difficulty with winning away knockout games means really only the group winners (and maybe some runners up) stand any chance of getting to the final.
The seeding you get for where you finish in your group will be:
1st = 1st - 4th seed
2nd = 5th - 8th seed
3rd = 9th - 12th seed
4th = 13th -16th seed
Then here are the potential routes to the final
The fact that these seedings are locked in after the pool stages means that even if an underdog gets some miracle result winning away at one of the top seeds, they aren't usually rewarded for their efforts, they're probably just given another really tough away fixture in the next round.
Also worth remembering that the R16 and QF are on back to back weekends, which can lead to logistical nightmares for clubs, especially with South African clubs are in the equation.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:16:16:50:17 by boozeboozebooze.
Very comprehensive! I explained the seeding system in the preview to the opening game, albeit in very rudimentary terms. I was just questioning the idea that with 12 points you wouldn't qualify for the next round. As with the World Cup at group and competition stages, it's a turgidly slow process to sort the wheat from the chaff, but as with all sport these days the overriding concern is making money.
I think it’s madness that the 8th placed team in a 10 team league qualify for the ‘Champions’ cup and that then four teams from a pool of six progress to the knockouts!
I also don’t like the drop down into the lower competition (probably not a popular option on this forum!)
Also it’s crazy that a team you don’t play can impact on your progress!
Personally would scrap the R16 and go back to the old double headers and Home&Away in the pools but not enough weeks in the season and the SA travel situation complicates matters.
I also don’t like the drop down into the lower competition (probably not a popular option on this forum!)
Also it’s crazy that a team you don’t play can impact on your progress!
Personally would scrap the R16 and go back to the old double headers and Home&Away in the pools but not enough weeks in the season and the SA travel situation complicates matters.
Quote:jayeatman
Having seen the game in person and rewatched it on TV last night...
4. One sliced kick from Neil le Roux gifted them their last try and cost us an LBP which in a close group might ultimately cost us.
This moment really peed me off after all our hard work, it could be significant come R16. The lineout was also very poor, just not good enough for a game of this importance. All is not lost but a little of our lustre has dimmed.
Quote:TrebleQuote:jayeatman
Having seen the game in person and rewatched it on TV last night...
4. One sliced kick from Neil le Roux gifted them their last try and cost us an LBP which in a close group might ultimately cost us.
This moment really peed me off after all our hard work, it could be significant come R16. The lineout was also very poor, just not good enough for a game of this importance. All is not lost but a little of our lustre has dimmed.
Our lineout is rarely any good, but sadly against Toulon it was dire. This was the one area that Toulon were far superior to us, their lineout rolling maul was always a problem.
Quote:tigersimon
Personally would scrap the R16 and go back to the old double headers and Home&Away in the pools but not enough weeks in the season and the SA travel situation complicates matters.
Personally would scrap the SA teams too...
It's funny really - for all the criticisms of e.g. dead rubbers during the Heineken Cup of old, none of these rejigged formats have come close to matching it as a spectacle. If they're not careful they'll bake the cynicism in.
I'm 100 per cent with tigersimon on this one: let's have home and away in the pool stages and the knockouts.
Frankly, I think it's ridiculous how one-sided some of the games have been in supposedly the world's premier club competition.
Frankly, I think it's ridiculous how one-sided some of the games have been in supposedly the world's premier club competition.
Yes as I mentioned before for the RWC, I would have 'Cup, Plate and Vase' type comps. No drop downs. Gives everyone something to play for at their current level and keeps the same number of teams involved. It seems to work OK in the european footy with the Champions League, Europa League, and Conference League.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:boozeboozeboozeQuote:TomReaganQuote:With 4 out of 6 qualifying?gaz59
Beating Castres is looking like a must-winritrris game
It doesn't look like 12 points will be enough to go through as I see it
I think the point is that whilst 4 teams qualify, the difficulty with winning away knockout games means really only the group winners (and maybe some runners up) stand any chance of getting to the final.
The seeding you get for where you finish in your group will be:
1st = 1st - 4th seed
2nd = 5th - 8th seed
3rd = 9th - 12th seed
4th = 13th -16th seed
Then here are the potential routes to the final
The fact that these seedings are locked in after the pool stages means that even if an underdog gets some miracle result winning away at one of the top seeds, they aren't usually rewarded for their efforts, they're probably just given another really tough away fixture in the next round.
Also worth remembering that the R16 and QF are on back to back weekends, which can lead to logistical nightmares for clubs, especially with South African clubs are in the equation.
Just digging a bit deeper into this by looking back at previous competitions, out of 16 knock out games (excluding the final) in the past tournaments there were:
24/25 - 3 away wins
Munster (9th seed) beat La Rochelle (8th seed)
Toulouse (5th seed) beat Toulon (4th seed)
Northampton (3rd seed) beat Leinster (2nd seed)
23/24 - 2 away wins
La Rochelle (10th seed) beat Stormers (7th seed)
Quins (5th seed) beat Bordeaux (4th seed)
22/23 - 0 away wins
So that makes 5 away wins in 48 games (~10%) in the past 3 years .
And interestingly, every time there was an away victory, that team lost in the next round.
Even when there was an "upset" , both teams were still pretty close in terms of seeding, the biggest seeding difference that was overcome was 3.
Quote:boozeboozebooze
The fact that these seedings are locked in after the pool stages means that even if an underdog gets some miracle result winning away at one of the top seeds, they aren't usually rewarded for their efforts, they're probably just given another really tough away fixture in the next round.
Also worth remembering that the R16 and QF are on back to back weekends, which can lead to logistical nightmares for clubs, especially with South African clubs are in the equation.
Thanks for this. Confirmed what I thought I knew.
In SF, I think the higher seeded team gets a (home) game in their country, but EPRC can choose the venue.
I'd prefer to see home and away games both in 4 groups of 4 and QF/SF. Feels fairer to me. That would need 11 weekends including the final and the current competion runs over 8.
The current set up has pros and cons:
CONs:
Groups of 6, play 2H & 2A means it's not perfectly fair. I was arguing that Bath started at a disadvantage because we are the only team in the group not playing Glaws. They sort of disproved that by beating Castres, although I doubt they'll win again.
Travel to/from SA.
Home advantage is huge. Leads to teams putting out weak lineups and lop-sided scores.
PROs?:
Because home advantage in the knockouts is huge, doing well in the group stages is critical which should make for less dead rubbers. Lop-sided results tend to disprove that which leads me to conclude that far less than half of the 24 teams in the draw have any ambition to win. The bookies would give just 3 or 4 a decent chance, Toulouse 11/4, Bordeaux 7/2, Leinster 7/2 & Bath 13/2.
I would advocate a 12 team Champions Cup.
Top 4 teams from each league. Unless the holders come outside the top 4.
4 groups of 3, home & away. QFs H&A, SFs & F at neutral venue(s), maybe on adjacent weekends.
8 games. I know the group stages would need more weekends, but it ought to be possible to schedule domestic league games around them.
Same format for 5th-8th Challenge Cup.
Quote:jayeatmanQuote:boozeboozebooze
The fact that these seedings are locked in after the pool stages means that even if an underdog gets some miracle result winning away at one of the top seeds, they aren't usually rewarded for their efforts, they're probably just given another really tough away fixture in the next round.
Also worth remembering that the R16 and QF are on back to back weekends, which can lead to logistical nightmares for clubs, especially with South African clubs are in the equation.
Thanks for this. Confirmed what I thought I knew.
In SF, I think the higher seeded team gets a (home) game in their country, but EPRC can choose the venue.
I'd prefer to see home and away games both in 4 groups of 4 and QF/SF. Feels fairer to me. That would need 11 weekends including the final and the current competion runs over 8.
The current set up has pros and cons:
CONs:
Groups of 6, play 2H & 2A means it's not perfectly fair. I was arguing that Bath started at a disadvantage because we are the only team in the group not playing Glaws. They sort of disproved that by beating Castres, although I doubt they'll win again.
Travel to/from SA.
Home advantage is huge. Leads to teams putting out weak lineups and lop-sided scores.
PROs?:
Because home advantage in the knockouts is huge, doing well in the group stages is critical which should make for less dead rubbers. Lop-sided results tend to disprove that which leads me to conclude that far less than half of the 24 teams in the draw have any ambition to win. The bookies would give just 3 or 4 a decent chance, Toulouse 11/4, Bordeaux 7/2, Leinster 7/2 & Bath 13/2.
I would advocate a 12 team Champions Cup.
Top 4 teams from each league. Unless the holders come outside the top 4.
4 groups of 3, home & away. QFs H&A, SFs & F at neutral venue(s), maybe on adjacent weekends.
8 games. I know the group stages would need more weekends, but it ought to be possible to schedule domestic league games around them.
Same format for 5th-8th Challenge Cup.
I quite like this although I would like to see a place for the Challenge Cup winner to be included.
We could of course do away with the group stage altogether and have straight knockouts for 16/32 teams - Home and Away each round except the final which is played somewhere neutral - means 7/9 games per season.
Quote:Quick correction on the maths here (as I've long held that 4 pools of 4 is the best way for any competition with both pools and KO stages)jayeatman
I'd prefer to see home and away games both in 4 groups of 4 and QF/SF. Feels fairer to me. That would need 11 weekends including the final and the current competion runs over 8.
4 pools of 4 is 6 pool matches, and 3 KO stages = 9, not 11.
A whole 1 week more than the current mess.
4 pools of 4 also means that it'd viable (though not ideal) to ditch the QF stage, and just have the pool winners all going straight into the SF stage.
4 pools of 4 is also easy to introduce Cup, Plate, Vase etc levels without any drop down in the 2nd tier - which can run on the exact same format
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:17:13:42:18 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Which TylerQuote:Quick correction on the maths here (as I've long held that 4 pools of 4 is the best way for any competition with both pools and KO stages)jayeatman
I'd prefer to see home and away games both in 4 groups of 4 and QF/SF. Feels fairer to me. That would need 11 weekends including the final and the current competion runs over 8.
4 pools of 4 is 6 pool matches, and 3 KO stages = 9, not 11.
A whole 1 week more than the current mess.
4 pools of 4 also means that it'd viable (though not ideal) to ditch the QF stage, and just have the pool winners all going straight into the SF stage.
4 pools of 4 is also easy to introduce Cup, Plate, Vase etc levels without any drop down in the 2nd tier - which can run on the exact same format
Note the use of the word 'and'!
In making 11, I was counting home & away QF & SF as well. Bit of a luxury, but fairer.
If you have one-shot QFs hosted by the higher ranked team, the stats show you might as well bin them altogether, so you could get back to 8 weekends. If you did that though I think the balance is tipped too far towards group matches.
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Quote:My apologies, I thought you meant H&A pools and then QF/SFjayeatman
Note the use of the word 'and'!
In making 11, I was counting home & away QF & SF as well.
IMO, once you're out of the pool stages, you don't need H&A fixtures. If you want a home QF, do better in the pool stages.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:17:15:26:16 by Which Tyler.
I would 💯 bin of the SA teams.
Happily return to Home and Away pool games and the Double Header which I loved.
The Italian teams are now stronger so if they made the Champions Cup (highly possible they wouldn’t qualify anyway - see below), results wouldn’t be so one sided!
Not sure there is room in the rugby Calendar for 11 weekends (or even 10 if SF was a neutral one legged game) especially in the Top 14 fixture congestion but going back to 9 has to be workable somehow!
If reduced to 16 teams how do you then split the qualifying allocations across the 3 leagues?
Five each from Prem, URC (excluding SA teams) and Top 14, plus an extra team for the previous season’s winners league competition (which would be the winners if they weren’t top 5 or the sixth placed team in that league)?
What about the winners of the Challenge Cup - no automatic entry to next season’s Champions cup?
Happily return to Home and Away pool games and the Double Header which I loved.
The Italian teams are now stronger so if they made the Champions Cup (highly possible they wouldn’t qualify anyway - see below), results wouldn’t be so one sided!
Not sure there is room in the rugby Calendar for 11 weekends (or even 10 if SF was a neutral one legged game) especially in the Top 14 fixture congestion but going back to 9 has to be workable somehow!
If reduced to 16 teams how do you then split the qualifying allocations across the 3 leagues?
Five each from Prem, URC (excluding SA teams) and Top 14, plus an extra team for the previous season’s winners league competition (which would be the winners if they weren’t top 5 or the sixth placed team in that league)?
What about the winners of the Challenge Cup - no automatic entry to next season’s Champions cup?
Quote:6 from Top14tigersimon
If reduced to 16 teams how do you then split the qualifying allocations across the 3 leagues?
5 from URC (no saffers)
4 from Prem
+ previous season's 2nd tier winner
Same for the 2nd tier
the rest in the 3rd tier + the teams from the likes of Georgia, Portugal etc (who can progress up via winning)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:17:15:44:46 by Which Tyler.
Quote:tigersimon
I would 💯 bin of the SA teams.
Happily return to Home and Away pool games and the Double Header which I loved.
The Italian teams are now stronger so if they made the Champions Cup (highly possible they wouldn’t qualify anyway - see below), results wouldn’t be so one sided!
Not sure there is room in the rugby Calendar for 11 weekends (or even 10 if SF was a neutral one legged game) especially in the Top 14 fixture congestion but going back to 9 has to be workable somehow!
If reduced to 16 teams how do you then split the qualifying allocations across the 3 leagues?
Five each from Prem, URC (excluding SA teams) and Top 14, plus an extra team for the previous season’s winners league competition (which would be the winners if they weren’t top 5 or the sixth placed team in that league)?
What about the winners of the Challenge Cup - no automatic entry to next season’s Champions cup?
+1, I just don't see how you can organise a viable tournament where teams aren't effectively forfeiting certain games that includes the SA teams. No amount of "outside the box" thinking can get around the ~5000 mile distance between them and the rest of the teams.
If it went back to 16 teams, I'd say it should be 6 from Top14, 4 from URC, 4 from PREM, then the previous season's winners of the Champions Cup and Challenge Cup. If those winners have already qualified via their league position, then that league is given an extra representative.
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