Bath
NORTHWEST PASSAGE. SALE SHARKS v BATH
Hill: opportunity?
By PG Tips
January 24 2023
Bath must find a passage through the Premiership’s tightest defence away at Sale on Friday night. The north westerners have conceded only 26 tries in 12 league starts,5 fewer than leaders Saracens. Surprisingly Bath stand 3rd equal in the defensive stakes, along with Gloucester, having conceded only 34 tries. What separates them (10th place, 23 points) from Sale (2nd, 43) is a woeful disparity in tries scored- 30 against 41. The message is clear. Bath must score tries to have a hope of victory.
Indeed, for Bath to climb the table, they must score more tries in every match. Sadly, even the vulnerable Bristol Bears, London Irish and Newcastle Falcons can muster more contact with the whitewash, all several scores ahead of Bath’s meagre tally. Only the wildest optimist would predict a lift in Bath’s try-scoring fortunes to begin this weekend: a passage through the home defence proving as elusive as the northwest route to the orient that became a nemesis for explorers from the sixteenth to nineteenth centuries. Only 2 of 7 Premiership visits to the AJ Bell have brought a try bonus this season. For the Blue, Black and White to pull off the trick and/or a win would be one of the shocks of the season.
Alex Sanderson has built a team in his own image. He was an uncompromising, physical and direct back row forward and cut his coaching teeth as Saracens defence coach. It is no surprise then that a brutally dominant forward pack and miserly defence have projected Sale into 2nd place. They are far from one dimensional though, having notched 41 tries, bettered only by Saracens and Saints. Penalty goals will not be enough to defeat them.
Sale’s forward power has been rewarded with England call ups for Rudd, Johnny Hill and Ben Curry. And Nick Schonert may feel that he can still force his way into contention. Tom Curry looks likely to miss this weekend though: his hamstring tear probably side-lining him until the middle of the 6 Nations. Manu Tuilagi is Shark’s only backline representative in the 6 Nations, but far from the only threat. Wings O’Flaherty and Reed are both dangerous, tying up multiple defenders with their mix of elusive and direct running, while the livewire Warr has filled de Klerk’s and Quirke’s shoes at 9 with style. His partnership with Rob Du Preez is the fulcrum of Sharks’ high pressure, all action game in attack and defence.
By contrast, Bath had no players named in Steve Borthwick’s squad, until Monday when Tom Dunn received a late call up to cover the injured George McGuigan. Ted Hill and Ollie Lawrence will wonder what more they could have done and, if Sam Underhill is fit to play he will want to press his claims for a place later in the 6 nations and for the World Cup squad. Other England aspirants are currently out injured, although Ben Spencer will hope that he too can catch the eye. Josh Bayliss and Cameron Redpath, already capped by Scotland and Ruaridh McConnochie, newly qualified for the land of his heritage have a final chance to force their way into the Calcutta Cup twenty- three. One player unlikely to feature is Piers Francis after his tackle on Tuipolotu last Friday. He seems certain to face time out either through suspension for a dangerous tackle (hearing Tuesday 24 Jan) or through graduated return to play regulations for injury.
There was much anticipation when Joe Maddock was appointed attack coach for Bath. His impact is taking time to develop in a team that spends most of a game in defence. The answer may be quicker ball winning at the breakdown and swifter delivery from it as much as sophistication in the backline. Cameron Redpath hit a great line for Chris Cloete’s try in Glasgow, more of that, and the release of Ollie Lawrence is required. Bath can boast an all-international three-quarter line so they have the pedigree and firepower to worry Sale if they hit their stride, as they did Saracens in October. With a full 7 days to prepare and two rest weeks to follow, this is one to go all out for. Reinforcements are on the horizon- several first -choice forwards plus Hamer-Webb due back soon- so why not give it a lash? Now would be a good time for Bath to show off the fruits of Joe Maddock’s labour.
If Bath can find a way through the home defences to win they will be only the second Premiership victors in Manchester this season. That would be some discovery, feat and some shock.
Possible Teams:
Bath: Morozov, Dunn, Rae, Lee-Warner, Attwood, Hill, Underhill, Bayliss. Spencer (Capt.), Bailey. McConnochie, Redpath, Lawrence, Cokanasiga. Gallagher.
Replacements: Boyce, Annett, Jonker, W Spencer, Reid. Schreuder, Ojomoh, Joseph.
Sale Sharks: Roebuck, McIntyre, van der Merwe, Schonert, Wiese, Hill, Ross, B Curry, D du Preez. Warr, R du Preez. O'Flaherty, Tuilagi, S James, Reed. L James.
Replacements: Ashman, Rudd, Harper, Beaumont, JL du Preez. Quirke, Curtis, Roebuck.
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StumbleuponNORTHWEST PASSAGE. SALE SHARKS v BATH. TEAMS’ UP!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 24/01/2023 10:30
24/01/2023 10:30
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Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:06:11:22:30 by P G Tips.
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Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:06:11:22:30 by P G Tips.
We won’t have our England call ups so possibly
McIntyre Van Der Merwe Schonert, Wiese, Beaumont Ross Dugdale JLDu Preez
Warr RDuPreez O’Flaherty Sam Hill Sam James Roebuck Carpenter
Bench Harrison Ashman Oosthuizen Postlethwaite Birch Quirke Curtis
Luke James/Reed
Would be good to see DanDuPreez, George Ford etc but probably not yet fit.
McIntyre Van Der Merwe Schonert, Wiese, Beaumont Ross Dugdale JLDu Preez
Warr RDuPreez O’Flaherty Sam Hill Sam James Roebuck Carpenter
Bench Harrison Ashman Oosthuizen Postlethwaite Birch Quirke Curtis
Luke James/Reed
Would be good to see DanDuPreez, George Ford etc but probably not yet fit.
Can someone read out that backline to Ben Spencer before the game and suggest that they may well be better off with quick ball in their hands rather than getting crooked necks all evening.
Strongly suspect this is going to be one of those games where our gameplan will tighten up even further - ensuring we lose, as opposed to giving it a lash and losing but at least avoiding being called naive and reckless.
Strongly suspect this is going to be one of those games where our gameplan will tighten up even further - ensuring we lose, as opposed to giving it a lash and losing but at least avoiding being called naive and reckless.
Lawrence called up this morning so won’t be available for us, big game for JJ now. Games like these have his contract on the line.
Quote:HK890
Lawrence called up this morning so won’t be available for us, big game for JJ now. Games like these have his contract on the line.
Isn’t Dunn with England as well?
Dunn & Lawrence with England confirmed- will still be training on Friday so not available.
That suggests Annett to start, with Stewart to bench (Doughty I think still injured).
Joseph or Ojomoh to replace Lawrence as starter. Could be Butt (or De Glanville if fit) to bench.
PG
That suggests Annett to start, with Stewart to bench (Doughty I think still injured).
Joseph or Ojomoh to replace Lawrence as starter. Could be Butt (or De Glanville if fit) to bench.
PG
Quote:Optimist
Can someone read out that backline to Ben Spencer before the game and suggest that they may well be better off with quick ball in their hands rather than getting crooked necks all evening.
Strongly suspect this is going to be one of those games where our gameplan will tighten up even further - ensuring we lose, as opposed to giving it a lash and losing but at least avoiding being called naive and reckless.
Honestly... short memories around here... What makes you think we've magically improved since last season so now our backs can run rings round the opposition.
I didn't enjoy many games last season, and I really don't want to watch another 50/60+ points put on us whilst we aimlessly run the ball from anywhere because Hooper promised free flowing fast paced rugby. Much rather a win, or an ugly close loss if you must.
Quote:by
What makes you think we've magically improved since last season so now our backs can run rings round the opposition.
I don't. Nor did I imply anything even approximating to that. The clue is in the words: 'as opposed to giving it a lash and losing'.
What I really hate is that teams are invariably forgiven for reducing their gameplan and losing, but get absolutely slated when they expand their gameplan and lose.
Just one of my many bugbears!
Sale strong favourites again [www.oddschecker.com]
Similar odds offered for the Glasgow game and we manage a draw there
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Similar odds offered for the Glasgow game and we manage a draw there
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quite rightly strong favourites - they have been excellent this season. Bath have improved but the table doesn't lie and Sale (at home) on 43 points and Bath on 23 points tells the story. If that doesn't then nearly every other stat does...but its one game so whilst they are favourites they are there to be beaten. COYB!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:P G Tips
Dunn & Lawrence with England confirmed- will still be training on Friday so not available.
That suggests Annett to start, with Stewart to bench (Doughty I think still injured).
Joseph or Ojomoh to replace Lawrence as starter. Could be Butt (or De Glanville if fit) to bench.
PG
Yes Annett will start (Been good recently), Doughty is fully fit now was part of the travelling squad for Toulon.
I expect JJ to 13 and then one of Ojomoh/Butt to 22 depending on the gameplan
Meaning the bench could be (McNally aiming for end of Jan so could be fit)
Doughty/Schoeman/Jonker/McNally/Underhill/Schreduer/Ojomoh/Bayliss
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:24:15:06:49 by HK890.
Said it before and I'll say it again; Sale hands down the best team we've played this season. Even without their England boys, they're so well drilled they'll be a level above us. Bonus point will be exactly that.
I think we could see a couple of players return from injury for this game. Also it would be good to play players like will spencer, Chris Cloete and Max Ojomoh in this game as they could be critical for us over the 6 nations period.
Quote:hasta
We've got a two week rest after this game, no reason to go all out.
Surely you can argue the opposite. If ready of-course get McNally/Obano/Coetzee some mins if possible then they have 2 weeks to recover.
Obviously goes without saying we don’t want players rushed back to early as the medical department are doing very well with returning players but use the timing to our advantage.
“Northwest Passage” ……more like ……”Carry on up the Khyber”….
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Real shame we lose dunn and lawrence- would have been truly rare to be playing a team with far more call ups than us. Despite being awful last few years we would still always seem to have good England representation for some reason.
I guess it's still 4 call ups vs 2? No curry's massively help our cause esp given reid and bayliss have been a nuisance at breakdown this season.
Not sure on injury status of quite a few (underhill out?) but would go along the lines of:
Morozov, annett, rae, attwood, flw, hill, reid, bayliss, spencer, bailey, rmc, redpath, jj, coko, gallagher.
Bench: schoeman, stewart, jonker, spencer, cloete, coetzee, schreuder, mojo
Not a massive fan of 6:2 bench split but think they will do it against sale.
Sadly hard to think of a gameplan or scenario where we win this game but you never know....
I guess it's still 4 call ups vs 2? No curry's massively help our cause esp given reid and bayliss have been a nuisance at breakdown this season.
Not sure on injury status of quite a few (underhill out?) but would go along the lines of:
Morozov, annett, rae, attwood, flw, hill, reid, bayliss, spencer, bailey, rmc, redpath, jj, coko, gallagher.
Bench: schoeman, stewart, jonker, spencer, cloete, coetzee, schreuder, mojo
Not a massive fan of 6:2 bench split but think they will do it against sale.
Sadly hard to think of a gameplan or scenario where we win this game but you never know....
Quote:charlieboa
Sadly hard to think of a gameplan or scenario where we win this game but you never know....
I would go for scoring more points than them Charlie
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:charlieboa
Sadly hard to think of a gameplan or scenario where we win this game but you never know....
I would go for scoring more points than them Charlie
Tried and trusted!
Francis' citing dismissed but he will miss the match due to GRTP requirements.
PG
PG
Karl Dickson for Sir then................
!!
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
!!Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Karl Dickson for Sir then................
Does it really matter who is in charge for this one sided fixture?
Blimey we could win........well until the final whistle we can always win.....
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Old Bath Tub
Karl Dickson for Sir then................
Does it really matter who is in charge for this one sided fixture?
Bit harsh on Jono Ross and Alex Sanderson isn't it OB!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:OutsideBathQuote:Old Bath Tub
Karl Dickson for Sir then................
Does it really matter who is in charge for this one sided fixture?
Bit harsh on Jono Ross and Alex Sanderson isn't it OB!
That did make me chuckle SW.
How is Karl Dickson still getting these gigs?
By far the worst ref around, and really needs to be doing level 5 or 6 games - that's his ability.
By far the worst ref around, and really needs to be doing level 5 or 6 games - that's his ability.
Quote:Dorset Boy
How is Karl Dickson still getting these gigs?
By far the worst ref around, and really needs to be doing level 5 or 6 games - that's his ability.
I guess that must just be our perception as he continues to get the games at the very highest level. They review performances very regularly and demote anyone not up to the job, so he clearly is. I just find his interaction with the players a bit smarmy / patronising but that's a personal opinion. Interestingly I do think that Matt Carley is one of the best these days - I never thought I'd be saying that!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Dorset Boy
How is Karl Dickson still getting these gigs?
By far the worst ref around, and really needs to be doing level 5 or 6 games - that's his ability.
I guess that must just be our perception as he continues to get the games at the very highest level. They review performances very regularly and demote anyone not up to the job, so he clearly is. I just find his interaction with the players a bit smarmy / patronising but that's a personal opinion. Interestingly I do think that Matt Carley is one of the best these days - I never thought I'd be saying that!
+1
When he first appeared I thought Carley was a game killer with no empathy or understanding for the game. Have to agree he is excellent now.
Dickson gets a lot of stick on this forum, but as you say he is constantly reviewed for his performance and wouldn’t be getting top level games if he wasn’t up to the job.
Either way he will have little influence on how much Bath lose by.
I've no issue with Dickson, don't think he's Barnes or Doyle level (such a shame he was sacked), but the issue I have with him is with Quins games. I don't think any other players have such a strong link to a side they played for? I don't mind him and think he's pretty good - proper poacher turned keeper when it comes to reffing the 9's at the breakdown and scrum!
Ask a few front row forwards what they think of him. Barely printable & certainly not for repeating here.
PG
PG
Quote:BathOtter
I've no issue with Dickson, don't think he's Barnes or Doyle level (such a shame he was sacked), but the issue I have with him is with Quins games. I don't think any other players have such a strong link to a side they played for? I don't mind him and think he's pretty good - proper poacher turned keeper when it comes to reffing the 9's at the breakdown and scrum!
Yes I thought the same for the european game recently Tigers vs Clermont where Austin and Kaye were commentating and ex Tigers player Frank Murphy was the ref. I would have 100% neutral commentators and refs - even if they are 100% neutral there is a perception of conflict of interest which is unecessary IMO.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Team's Up. McNally & Obano return:
Josh McNally will make his return to action from the start when Bath Rugby take on Sale Sharks in their first Gallagher Premiership match of 2023 on Friday night.
The 32-year-old featured three times at the beginning of the season before injuring his shoulder. After almost four months of rehabilitation with the club’s medical team, he has been named in the second row alongside Dave Attwood.
There is a similar story for Beno Obano who has been sidelined with a knee injury sustained on the opening day of the season. The England prop is back on the bench following a similar timeframe to McNally.
The starting pack has five changes in total from the draw against Glasgow Warriors last time out. Valeriy Morozov takes the one jersey against his former club while Niall Annett starts at hooker with Tom Dunn on international duty. D’Arcy Rae is reinstated at tighthead prop with Attwood and McNally pairing up in the lock positions.
The back row of Ted Hill, Chris Cloete and Miles Reid will link up once again.
Captain Ben Spencer is promoted back to a starting berth and partners Orlando Bailey in the half-back slots, while Max Ojomoh switches from wing to inside centre. Jonathan Joseph joins him in the midfield with Ollie Lawrence away with England.
Matt Gallagher and Will Butt are named in the back three along with Joe Cokanasiga to complete the backline.
On the bench, Sam Underhill is fit to be selected and Scotland international Cameron Redpath is available – another set to take on his ex-team.
Bath Rugby team to play Sale Sharks
15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Butt, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Valeriy Morozov, 2 Niall Annett, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Josh McNally, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Chris Cloete, 8 Miles Reid
Impact players: 16 Tom Doughty, 17 Beno Obano, 18 Johannes Jonker, 19 Will Spencer, 20 Fergus Lee-Warner, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Cameron Redpath, 23 Sam Underhill
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Josh McNally will make his return to action from the start when Bath Rugby take on Sale Sharks in their first Gallagher Premiership match of 2023 on Friday night.
The 32-year-old featured three times at the beginning of the season before injuring his shoulder. After almost four months of rehabilitation with the club’s medical team, he has been named in the second row alongside Dave Attwood.
There is a similar story for Beno Obano who has been sidelined with a knee injury sustained on the opening day of the season. The England prop is back on the bench following a similar timeframe to McNally.
The starting pack has five changes in total from the draw against Glasgow Warriors last time out. Valeriy Morozov takes the one jersey against his former club while Niall Annett starts at hooker with Tom Dunn on international duty. D’Arcy Rae is reinstated at tighthead prop with Attwood and McNally pairing up in the lock positions.
The back row of Ted Hill, Chris Cloete and Miles Reid will link up once again.
Captain Ben Spencer is promoted back to a starting berth and partners Orlando Bailey in the half-back slots, while Max Ojomoh switches from wing to inside centre. Jonathan Joseph joins him in the midfield with Ollie Lawrence away with England.
Matt Gallagher and Will Butt are named in the back three along with Joe Cokanasiga to complete the backline.
On the bench, Sam Underhill is fit to be selected and Scotland international Cameron Redpath is available – another set to take on his ex-team.
Bath Rugby team to play Sale Sharks
15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Ojomoh, 11 Will Butt, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Valeriy Morozov, 2 Niall Annett, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Josh McNally, 6 Ted Hill, 7 Chris Cloete, 8 Miles Reid
Impact players: 16 Tom Doughty, 17 Beno Obano, 18 Johannes Jonker, 19 Will Spencer, 20 Fergus Lee-Warner, 21 Louis Schreuder, 22 Cameron Redpath, 23 Sam Underhill
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
THE OPPOSITION
Sale Sharks: 15 Joe Carpenter, 14 Tom Roebuck, 13 Sam James, 12 Ryan Mills, 11 Tom O'Flaherty, 10 Rob du Preez, 9 Gus Warr; 1 Simon McIntyre, 2 Tommy Taylor, 3 Nick Schonert, 4 Cobus Wiese, 5 Josh Beaumont, 6 Jono Ross (c), 7 Sam du Preez, 8 Jean-Luc de Preez
Replacements: 16 Ewan Ashman, 17 Ross Harrison, 18 Joe Jones, 19 Alex Groves, 20 Rouban Birch, 21 Raffi Quirke, 22 Luke James, 23 Arron Reed
Sale Sharks: 15 Joe Carpenter, 14 Tom Roebuck, 13 Sam James, 12 Ryan Mills, 11 Tom O'Flaherty, 10 Rob du Preez, 9 Gus Warr; 1 Simon McIntyre, 2 Tommy Taylor, 3 Nick Schonert, 4 Cobus Wiese, 5 Josh Beaumont, 6 Jono Ross (c), 7 Sam du Preez, 8 Jean-Luc de Preez
Replacements: 16 Ewan Ashman, 17 Ross Harrison, 18 Joe Jones, 19 Alex Groves, 20 Rouban Birch, 21 Raffi Quirke, 22 Luke James, 23 Arron Reed
Ok I know this probably sounds deluded, but I am predicting us to win this..........
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
How good is it to see Beno back. Felt sure he was done for the season when I saw his injury at Briz.
Still don't think we'll win but the bench looks strong, so may end running them closer than I'd originally thought.
Still don't think we'll win but the bench looks strong, so may end running them closer than I'd originally thought.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Dorset Boy
How is Karl Dickson still getting these gigs?
By far the worst ref around, and really needs to be doing level 5 or 6 games - that's his ability.
I guess that must just be our perception as he continues to get the games at the very highest level. They review performances very regularly and demote anyone not up to the job, so he clearly is. I just find his interaction with the players a bit smarmy / patronising but that's a personal opinion. Interestingly I do think that Matt Carley is one of the best these days - I never thought I'd be saying that!
I agree that Carley has learnt and improved hugely, particularly around empathy and game understanding.
However, Dickson makes repeated errors, and is not improving. He misses things regularly and constantly gets calls wrong, whether with the whistle or when a TMO. There is no way his performances are being properly reviewed, because if they were, he would not be reffing at this level.
Quote:Dorset Boy
There is no way his performances are being properly reviewed, because if they were, he would not be reffing at this level.
I promise you they are! It's part of the refs schedule as confirmed by Wayne B and Doyle, amongst others. Review of all decisions and discussion of these amongst all the refs in order that they can be consistent.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
On the subject of Bath v Sale, the 2 announced teams have given me WAY more optimism than I had this morning. They are missing a lot of first XXIII players, whilst we seem to be getting a few back. To have W Spencer, FLW and Underhill on the bench for a very physical encounter is encouraging. A shame Lawrence isn't with us – but parity (if not a touch of dominance?) up front will give us a shot.
On Dicksen, my view is that he's not very good, but agree with BM that performances are reviewed so he can't be that bad. The thing for me is that the rules of rugby, and their interpretations, can be, largely, subjective (ask 15 supporters about a breakdown and they'll give you 30 infringements (all against their team)). Hence, a referee's job isn't so much to be the arbiter of truth (because, without getting too philosophical, there isn't much to be found) but it's rather to, firstly, communicate effectively, with sympathy for the game and its laws and recognise the fact that they are human and so might be wrong (i.e. Pearce and Barnes often use "that's how I saw it" or "I'm afraid I didn't see it") which goes down well with the players. Second, they're there to make the game a good spectacle by refereeing in a way that allows the game to flow. Again, games that Barnes and Pearce ref are usually good, fast, flowing games, rather than being too stop-start, thanks to the fact that they are clear and consistent with how they ref (the players know them from past experience). So experience and time in the middle help, as this makes them consistent, but then they need to be clear with the way they communicate their decisions. Like everything in life, ignorance leads to confusion, and this happens in rugby if players and supporters aren't clear on why a referee made a certain decision. For me, whilst Dicksen might get most decisions right according to an RFU review on Monday, that doesn't mean I enjoy either the way he refs or the games he referees. Might change in time, but I'm not a fan of his yet.
On Dicksen, my view is that he's not very good, but agree with BM that performances are reviewed so he can't be that bad. The thing for me is that the rules of rugby, and their interpretations, can be, largely, subjective (ask 15 supporters about a breakdown and they'll give you 30 infringements (all against their team)). Hence, a referee's job isn't so much to be the arbiter of truth (because, without getting too philosophical, there isn't much to be found) but it's rather to, firstly, communicate effectively, with sympathy for the game and its laws and recognise the fact that they are human and so might be wrong (i.e. Pearce and Barnes often use "that's how I saw it" or "I'm afraid I didn't see it") which goes down well with the players. Second, they're there to make the game a good spectacle by refereeing in a way that allows the game to flow. Again, games that Barnes and Pearce ref are usually good, fast, flowing games, rather than being too stop-start, thanks to the fact that they are clear and consistent with how they ref (the players know them from past experience). So experience and time in the middle help, as this makes them consistent, but then they need to be clear with the way they communicate their decisions. Like everything in life, ignorance leads to confusion, and this happens in rugby if players and supporters aren't clear on why a referee made a certain decision. For me, whilst Dicksen might get most decisions right according to an RFU review on Monday, that doesn't mean I enjoy either the way he refs or the games he referees. Might change in time, but I'm not a fan of his yet.
Hugely encouraged with the selections of both sides - the biggest selection or unavailability for me is that only one of the Du Preez twins is playing. Our bench looks the strongest I can remember for a long time and so good to see both Beno and Big Mac back - FLW ability to cover both 2nd and back row clearly gave him the nod over Coetzee..
Could be a close one this - Sorry I don't like running down the officials but Karl Dickson continually keeps making howlers and most worrying of all he even makes these howlers or misses as a TMO and unfortunately more often than not he has an influence on the outcome of the games. I was always school'd on the thought that if the Ref was not noticed or talked about then they had a good game - he clearly has some dirt on someone high up in the official kingdom.
Could be a close one this - Sorry I don't like running down the officials but Karl Dickson continually keeps making howlers and most worrying of all he even makes these howlers or misses as a TMO and unfortunately more often than not he has an influence on the outcome of the games. I was always school'd on the thought that if the Ref was not noticed or talked about then they had a good game - he clearly has some dirt on someone high up in the official kingdom.
Couple of points
Great to see the positivity about Bath's chances on here but as I have a thick pair or rose tinted glasses I always think yep we can win this. I come on here to have that enthusiasm reduced so come final istle I am not so distraught.
with regard to Dickson I a watched 2 games last week the one reffed by Foley and the one reffed by Dickson. It was night and day not just the accuracy and communication of the decision making which was excellent from Foley. the most noticeable difference was the speed of the decision, Dickson's always appeared half a second slower and the game had moved on. It may be he is a converted player so all his formative years had a different lens on it. Those (some...) that became refs earlier develop an instinct. I think there are 2 reasons he still gets the top gigs. 1) we dont know how good/bad those not being assigned are. 2) he is a 'project' ref, the RFU (and other Unions) would clearly like more ex players as refs and I think he gets more latitude for that. If he got demoted it wouldn't have the same appeal to other players.
Great to see the positivity about Bath's chances on here but as I have a thick pair or rose tinted glasses I always think yep we can win this. I come on here to have that enthusiasm reduced so come final istle I am not so distraught.
with regard to Dickson I a watched 2 games last week the one reffed by Foley and the one reffed by Dickson. It was night and day not just the accuracy and communication of the decision making which was excellent from Foley. the most noticeable difference was the speed of the decision, Dickson's always appeared half a second slower and the game had moved on. It may be he is a converted player so all his formative years had a different lens on it. Those (some...) that became refs earlier develop an instinct. I think there are 2 reasons he still gets the top gigs. 1) we dont know how good/bad those not being assigned are. 2) he is a 'project' ref, the RFU (and other Unions) would clearly like more ex players as refs and I think he gets more latitude for that. If he got demoted it wouldn't have the same appeal to other players.
Quote:Clarkey3k
Sale strong favourites again [www.oddschecker.com]
Similar odds offered for the Glasgow game and we manage a draw there
Odds have shortened for both sides since team announcements, from 1/5 to 1/3 for Sale and from c5/1 to 3/1 for Bath reflecting some of the optimism above. Big match for OB. COYB!!
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Like that squad.
Some serious impact off the bench with beno, flw, underhill and cam.
Pretty exciting when you think we are missing boyce, dunn, stuart, ewels, roux , bayliss, barbeary, lawrence, muir, tdg who would arguably all be in the mix for being in our best 23. Hopefully du toit next season as well as russell.
Feels like a winnable games based on the teamsheets but sale have really looked a good unit that know what they are doing this season. Could be a close one maybe....
Some serious impact off the bench with beno, flw, underhill and cam.
Pretty exciting when you think we are missing boyce, dunn, stuart, ewels, roux , bayliss, barbeary, lawrence, muir, tdg who would arguably all be in the mix for being in our best 23. Hopefully du toit next season as well as russell.
Feels like a winnable games based on the teamsheets but sale have really looked a good unit that know what they are doing this season. Could be a close one maybe....
Interesting to see Alex Groves on the bench for Sale. Big chap, not sure if he got a Prem game at Bristol but Sanderson evidently sees something in him.
Looking forward to seeing how Hill and Cloete go. Bit of a shame we still can't throw a genuine number 8 into that mix.
Looking forward to seeing how Hill and Cloete go. Bit of a shame we still can't throw a genuine number 8 into that mix.
[ duplicate post ]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:26:19:50:24 by dr.bath1865.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:26:19:50:24 by dr.bath1865.
I’d love it to be a close one. If we’re in it at 60 minutes, our bench might win it. Problem is, too often, the eternal optimist always sits down on the sofa at 745 on a Friday night and by 8 o’clock I’m thinking a Grand Designs repeat might be more appealing.
A lot rests on Bailey. Interesting to see who kicks at goal, although unless a nailed on 3 I’d prefer us to go to the corner. Roll the dice and let our big pack have a go from 5m. Bailey needs to step up and run the game. He’s a lad with big potential but rarely have I seen him take a game by the scruff of the neck. It’d be nice if he got a bit of front foot ball so he can put JJ into space, and would make for a fun evening even if we lose but go down swinging. Either that, or it’ll be Kevin McLeod in a hard hat.
A lot rests on Bailey. Interesting to see who kicks at goal, although unless a nailed on 3 I’d prefer us to go to the corner. Roll the dice and let our big pack have a go from 5m. Bailey needs to step up and run the game. He’s a lad with big potential but rarely have I seen him take a game by the scruff of the neck. It’d be nice if he got a bit of front foot ball so he can put JJ into space, and would make for a fun evening even if we lose but go down swinging. Either that, or it’ll be Kevin McLeod in a hard hat.
Quote:dr.bath1865
I’d love it to be a close one. If we’re in it at 60 minutes, our bench might win it. Problem is, too often, the eternal optimist always sits down on the sofa at 745 on a Friday night and by 8 o’clock I’m thinking a Grand Designs repeat might be more appealing.
I know that feeling- so often a terrible start to the weekend over recent times!
Good luck. Looks to be a cracking Friday night fixture with two strong teams. Living with Sales pack tends to be the main challenge but Baths pack looks decent. Have I missed something or is this Reids first game at 8?
Quote:Ali1969
Hugely encouraged with the selections of both sides - the biggest selection or unavailability for me is that only one of the Du Preez twins is playing. Our bench looks the strongest I can remember for a long time and so good to see both Beno and Big Mac back - FLW ability to cover both 2nd and back row clearly gave him the nod.
I fear that "Sam Du Preez" may turn out to be Dan.
Edit - just had a look at the Sale site and "Sam" is Dugdale not Du Preez.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:27:05:55:39 by joethefanatic.
Phew. The du preez twins absolutely dominated us at the rec so bonus to only be dealing with one.
Feels like sale are missing lots of others.... osthuizen? Rodd, hill, curry twins, manu and prob others....
Still have plenty enough quality to win it though
Feels like sale are missing lots of others.... osthuizen? Rodd, hill, curry twins, manu and prob others....
Still have plenty enough quality to win it though
Not sure I can bring myself to watch the game, but as OM says the key will be in the pack. At home their pack destroyed us, so for Bath to compete in any way the pack needs to step up this time.
Quote:dr.bath1865
.......... Either that, or it’ll be Kevin McLeod in a hard hat.
I would go for Emilia Fox in white overalls myself (Silent Witness) but hopefully it won't come to that.
Could be an analogy for the pundits afterwards, dissecting the game, whilst talking into a microphone.
Quote:OutsideBath
Not sure I can bring myself to watch the game, but as OM says the key will be in the pack. At home their pack destroyed us, so for Bath to compete in any way the pack needs to step up this time.
Looking at ours, it seems that the tight 5 were selected on the basis of bodyweight, so thats a good start. They are huge (with Will Spencer on the bench). If those enormous porps can't put on a good shove with Attwood and McNally behind them then all hope is lost.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
This is our "game in hand" on Newcastle, who many said was important to take into consideration along with the game in hand on Irish, when a few weeks back I posted about us being rock bottom. We will see where we are compared to the Falcons by about 10.00pm tonight and I expect us to still be three points behind them and and Irish having played the same number. May be even further behind Irish after Sunday although still with game in hand.
Quote:nick holder
This is our "game in hand" on Newcastle, who many said was important to take into consideration along with the game in hand on Irish, when a few weeks back I posted about us being rock bottom. We will see where we are compared to the Falcons by about 10.00pm tonight and I expect us to still be three points behind them and and Irish having played the same number. May be even further behind Irish after Sunday although still with game in hand.
Thats the spirit!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:nick holder
This is our "game in hand" on Newcastle, who many said was important to take into consideration along with the game in hand on Irish, when a few weeks back I posted about us being rock bottom. We will see where we are compared to the Falcons by about 10.00pm tonight and I expect us to still be three points behind them and and Irish having played the same number. May be even further behind Irish after Sunday although still with game in hand.
Thats the spirit!
What is wrong with honesty?
Quote:nick holder
What is wrong with honesty?
Nothing at all, my response was tongue in cheek.
(Personally I think that having seen the squads we stand a half decent chance of getting something from the game. Having said that we would have to turn around our awful away form).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Bath by 2 ……..or Sale by 22 ! 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Bath Rugby FB account
Sale Sharks v Bath Rugby | 𝙃𝙤𝙬 𝙩𝙤 𝙬𝙖𝙩𝙘𝙝?
If you’re not joining us in Manchester for Bath Rugby v Sale Sharks there are several ways to follow tonight’s action!
📺 | BT Sport 👉 [bit.ly]
🎙 | BBC Radio Bristol 👉 [bit.ly]
💻 | Dyson Match Centre! 👉 [bit.ly]
⏰ | Kick-off | 19:45
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:27:18:51:48 by CoochieCoo.
Sale Sharks v Bath Rugby | 𝙃𝙤𝙬 𝙩𝙤 𝙬𝙖𝙩𝙘𝙝?
If you’re not joining us in Manchester for Bath Rugby v Sale Sharks there are several ways to follow tonight’s action!
📺 | BT Sport 👉 [bit.ly]
🎙 | BBC Radio Bristol 👉 [bit.ly]
💻 | Dyson Match Centre! 👉 [bit.ly]
⏰ | Kick-off | 19:45
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:27:18:51:48 by CoochieCoo.
Good start !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
2 minutes gone. Yellow card for Butt, try for Sale, Grand Designs for me.
Too easy for Sale…… poor from Bath.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
We’re awful but I’m not sure if we’re more awful, boring or stupid. Yellow card. Awful maul defence. Missed touch from penalties. 10m for not giving up the ball. Another Sale try.
Quote:hasta
That maul defence was pathetic
Again !!
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
We are hopeless ! Bonus point for Sale ……..22-3. 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Jesus this is bad.
City v Arsenal on ITV is feeling much more appealing.
J
City v Arsenal on ITV is feeling much more appealing.
J
Is anyone actually surprised by this? Outmuscled, outsmarted, outclassed. JvG talked pre-game about not doing the same stuff we do every week and yet it's virtually identical
Problem is, teams just love playing us. You can see the confidence coarsing through Sale. Every team knows what a pushover we are.
This has the feel of last season. Heads down. Mistakes. Outmuscled. I’d sub a lot of players at half time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:27:20:28:51 by dr.bath1865.
This has the feel of last season. Heads down. Mistakes. Outmuscled. I’d sub a lot of players at half time.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:27:20:28:51 by dr.bath1865.
The late try does not cover up how bad we were. We are not even second best, I'd give that to Karl Dickson who I actually think has had a good game.
It feels familiar to the home game against Sale, we base our game around forward domination, and we have no idea what to do when we don't get it. The problem is that most weeks we don't, and there are few sides that come close to Sale in that department. Surely you change the game plan and try to go around them a bit more?
It feels familiar to the home game against Sale, we base our game around forward domination, and we have no idea what to do when we don't get it. The problem is that most weeks we don't, and there are few sides that come close to Sale in that department. Surely you change the game plan and try to go around them a bit more?
I missed the first 30 and did my usual firing up the app with a tinge of optimism based on the names in the sheet. What greets me? Sale getting their bonus point try. Our consolation of the half through some savvy line out and doggedness at their try line, but it’s route one and not the best executed you’ll see in the Prem.
Sigh. Think I’ll do the dishes.
Sigh. Think I’ll do the dishes.
We do something decent then stop, set up the slow ruck, kick it away and concede a penalty. I know we scored a try at the end there but we had pen advantage and yet persisted with pausing and bashing it over the line. We need to make better decisions when we have advantage. Surely the backs have been practising all week what they will do with good ball 10m out?
A foothold maybe?
Sale look brutally effective. Surprised some of their clear-outs haven't been checked. Good luck!
Sale look brutally effective. Surprised some of their clear-outs haven't been checked. Good luck!
Quote:Watch a forward pick and drive? If they are feeling particularly keen join in with a maul?B4thB4ck
Surely the backs have been practising all week what they will do with good ball 10m out?
How we are still in this on our third yellow is a miracle. Super subs maybe helping? Obano having a significant impact in the scrum.
As critical I’ve been tonight, have to admire our spirit. JvG has engendered some grit at least.
Scrum penalties are starting to come our way. Maybe Sale swapped their front row too early?
Jeepers. We were 22-3 down. We now lead. What a 25 minutes. And we’ve had 2 yellow cards. Remarkable.
Hah, I’m so glad it was cheap shot Ross who missed the tackle on Redpath. Spencer with the pace. Lovely. Our bench has had the impact we hoped! Come on Bath, finish strong.
3 YCs
Lucky Du Preez has his kicking wellies on again, otherwise it would be a different story.
Lucky Du Preez has his kicking wellies on again, otherwise it would be a different story.
Quote:Rokobilly
Dumb. Horrible. Grim. Sale by 40.
I hope I'm wrong.
I was wrong. Very proud with that second half. One scrum cost us.
How did we lose that last scrum. We had them on toast for the whole second half.
One of the most gutting defeats.
Another losing BP.
Who would have thought that after 35 minutes?
J
One of the most gutting defeats.
Another losing BP.
Who would have thought that after 35 minutes?
J
Those able to watch - was it really reasonable that Bath had 3 YCs and Sale, the most ferocious of tacklers, had none? Somerset Live report a neck roll (Ryan Mills on Joe Cokanasiga), for example, in the first ten minutes with a penalty but no YC?
Quote:dr.bath1865
Goodness me Niall Annett was good.
His cameo at Ashton Gate apart, he's been brilliant this year. Unsung compared to some new signings but so, so committed. I'm a big fan.
I don't know what to think really. I have no idea how we nearly won as we were so bad early on. The fight in the team is incredible, week after week we stage a comeback, which is clearly an improvement on last season.
I think that the talent in the team is there, what is lacking I think is the trust in that talent from the coaches. We box kick from anywhere outside of the oppositon 22, it is predictable and hands possession to the opposition. We then get so far behind that we start to play and then nearly win games from being down and out. Why can't we trust that talent from the start
I think that the talent in the team is there, what is lacking I think is the trust in that talent from the coaches. We box kick from anywhere outside of the oppositon 22, it is predictable and hands possession to the opposition. We then get so far behind that we start to play and then nearly win games from being down and out. Why can't we trust that talent from the start
Quote:Keynsham BBW
Those able to watch - was it really reasonable that Bath had 3 YCs and Sale, the most ferocious of tacklers, had none? Somerset Live report a neck roll (Ryan Mills on Joe Cokanasiga), for example, in the first ten minutes with a penalty but no YC?
That didn't warrant a yellow card. Not sure it was a neck roll at all to be honest. His arm was over the top of Joe's head/neck but not it a way that looked dangerous, he was just pushing.
The Bath cards looked fair and I didn't see anything from Sale that was blatantly a card offence. Some close calls though.
Quote:It was fair I thought, and I thought Karl Dickson probably had the best game I have seen him have. Neck roll wasn't a yellow card for meKeynsham BBW
Those able to watch - was it really reasonable that Bath had 3 YCs and Sale, the most ferocious of tacklers, had none? Somerset Live report a neck roll (Ryan Mills on Joe Cokanasiga), for example, in the first ten minutes with a penalty but no YC?
Poor defensive play by Bailey for the try, needed to trust JJ to take the inside man. Great to see Beno go so well, some big hits as well dominating in the scrum.
Well played. Frustrating to miss out but given you played so long a man down and to come from 20 odd points down that was really impressive. You can see what it meant to the players especially guys like Spencer, Hill, Arnett, etc who had left it all out there. I'm sure there's much more to come from Bath.
Awful start, tremendous comeback as so often this season but as usual we lose AGAIN! It is massively frustrating.
Quote:Rawce
3 YCs
Lucky Du Preez has his kicking wellies on again, otherwise it would be a different story.
This is true, six from nine or ten kicks missed but the game was there for us to win at the death. Shame we couldn't close it out. There is hope isn't there?
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Well, what to say. If I could make one point it would be that having taken the lead we stopped playing. When we played with even a bit of pace we looked dangerous and Sale looked rattled. Went 2 points up and we backed off, started looking at the clock and trying the holding game that failed so badly in the first quarter.
I appreciate that it took a lot out of us to make that come back but we need that missing piece of confidence to ignore the clock and be more positive with possession. Sale were tired and shaky, it feels like we were happy with a 2 point lead and paid the price.
I appreciate that it took a lot out of us to make that come back but we need that missing piece of confidence to ignore the clock and be more positive with possession. Sale were tired and shaky, it feels like we were happy with a 2 point lead and paid the price.
Gutted but I’m just going to be positive. It’s a tight league and we’re likely not going to win it (although who knows after minutes 41-79 tonight) but the fact we should be beating teams who are going to win it is heartening considering where we were last season. Sar, Exe and now Sale away would all have been wins with a bit more composure.
Massive efforts from Annett, Hill, Reid, Spencer, Gallagher and Obano off the bench was immense. Goodness me it’ll be great to have him back. Not sure why Butt (who had a shocker) came off as it meant Spencer no longer played 9 but hey ho. Can’t question the fitness, spirit and grit that JvG is engendering in the squad. Something to build on. Something to be proud of.
Massive efforts from Annett, Hill, Reid, Spencer, Gallagher and Obano off the bench was immense. Goodness me it’ll be great to have him back. Not sure why Butt (who had a shocker) came off as it meant Spencer no longer played 9 but hey ho. Can’t question the fitness, spirit and grit that JvG is engendering in the squad. Something to build on. Something to be proud of.
Who could have ever predicted we’d be utterly useless in the first half before a stirring comeback. It’s not like we’ve seen that happen… literally EVERY SINGLE WEEK this entire season. It’s bizarre.
Quote:bathonian80
Who could have ever predicted we’d be utterly useless in the first half before a stirring comeback. It’s not like we’ve seen that happen… literally EVERY SINGLE WEEK this entire season. It’s bizarre.
……….and almost every time we lose so despite all these spirited recoveries we’ll still probably end up bottom & be extremely lucky there’s no relegation.
I would say that result was better than everyone expected, a LBP is probably the most we can expect when playing good teams.
Difficult to be too unhappy.
Difficult to be too unhappy.
I didn’t watch or listen to the game so caveats apply, but STOP. LOSING. THE BUSINESS END. OF THE GAME. Comebacks against complacency are not a winning formula. We were, very theoretically, stronger on paper, man for man.
Start of game:
We play zero rugby, box-kick everything. The opposition often score within a few minutes, we're put under constant pressure because the opposition have so much ball to play with. A yellow or two, and another 2/3 scores conceded.
Second half:
We realise, oh £@$% we need to score some points, so we open up, and actually play some good rugby because we have to. Score tries (often individual ones because our ball retention is still poor, but hey)
End of game:
We need to close out the game, return to start of the game tactics, and stop playing.
Lose.
We play zero rugby, box-kick everything. The opposition often score within a few minutes, we're put under constant pressure because the opposition have so much ball to play with. A yellow or two, and another 2/3 scores conceded.
Second half:
We realise, oh £@$% we need to score some points, so we open up, and actually play some good rugby because we have to. Score tries (often individual ones because our ball retention is still poor, but hey)
End of game:
We need to close out the game, return to start of the game tactics, and stop playing.
Lose.
Haven't watched the game yet as my provider has lost it, but I will!
A LBP away at Sale on a freezing Friday night? I'd have taken that before the game with gratitude. But when we finally learn how to play for 80 minutes with 15 players, we'll start to win these tight games.
The future is getting brighter but it's not here yet.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:28:04:57:19 by joethefanatic.
A LBP away at Sale on a freezing Friday night? I'd have taken that before the game with gratitude. But when we finally learn how to play for 80 minutes with 15 players, we'll start to win these tight games.
The future is getting brighter but it's not here yet.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:01:28:04:57:19 by joethefanatic.
Quote:joethefanatic
The future is getting brighter but it's not here yet.
Based on the games I’ve been to the brighter future we all want is some years away. It will also only happen if the ridiculous injury problems we regularly suffer from stop occurring.
The improvement from last season is immense, but there was such a long way to go that it still isn’t seeing us win weekly. If even half that improvement can be gained again then we could be in for a treat.
Still disappointed to lose after a first half of horrors but there were several aspects I did enjoy, Annett, Beno , functioning lineout but mostly seeing JJ roll back the years. Cup is half full and slowly rising.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Watching last night was the usual mix of hope, groan, cheer and ultimately, disappointment. We are inching towards better times but there is long way to go. The game also once again registered the importance of the 9 and 10 in making the team and game soar and unfortunately, in Spencer and Bailey, we just don't have the quality. Yes I know Spencer scored that try and gave it his all, but his box kicks were woefully inaccurate and his passing haphazard. Bailey is just out of his depth and usually out of position. A poor kicker and attacker and poorer defender.
Until 9 and 10 improve their game and influence we will continue to fall short of consistency and success.
Until 9 and 10 improve their game and influence we will continue to fall short of consistency and success.
We had the usual brain fart in the first 5 mins, YC and concede a try
We can't expect to concede 4 tries in the 1st half and expect to win, Sale switched off at that point and allowed us back in.
We still can't play for 80 mins
We still can't close games out with 5 mins to go
We conceded 5 tries so the defence is porous
If they had a decent kicker they would have been out of sight
Some good play by us but we are still weak mentally
After our game in hand, which apparently was our "joker" we are behind Irish and Newcastle and we may be rock bottom again if Bristol manage to perform against a depleted Saracens.
We have still only managed to win 4 first team games all season.
Progress should be measured in wins and we have just not made any.
We can't expect to concede 4 tries in the 1st half and expect to win, Sale switched off at that point and allowed us back in.
We still can't play for 80 mins
We still can't close games out with 5 mins to go
We conceded 5 tries so the defence is porous
If they had a decent kicker they would have been out of sight
Some good play by us but we are still weak mentally
After our game in hand, which apparently was our "joker" we are behind Irish and Newcastle and we may be rock bottom again if Bristol manage to perform against a depleted Saracens.
We have still only managed to win 4 first team games all season.
Progress should be measured in wins and we have just not made any.
Quote:Well summarised B80.bathonian80
Start of game: We play zero rugby, box-kick everything. The opposition often score within a few minutes, we're put under constant pressure because the opposition have so much ball to play with. A yellow or two, and another 2/3 scores conceded.
Second half:
We realise, oh £@$% we need to score some points, so we open up, and actually play some good rugby because we have to. Score tries (often individual ones because our ball retention is still poor, but hey)
End of game:
We need to close out the game, return to start of the game tactics, and stop playing.
Lose.
Your match report in a nutshell Opti.
When the club next mention Half Season Tickets, I recommend asking for the 2nd Half version.
Quote:B4thB4ck
When the club next mention Half Season Tickets, I recommend asking for the 2nd Half version.
Thats more like it Bath Boys.
Sorry indeed for the last minute loss after the effort and brain power to come back and get ahead - which is so hard to take. But you actually looked like a team that meant business, Obano make the difference in the scrums? Not bad at all for a dire Friday nighter in very hostile territory.
Sorry indeed for the last minute loss after the effort and brain power to come back and get ahead - which is so hard to take. But you actually looked like a team that meant business, Obano make the difference in the scrums? Not bad at all for a dire Friday nighter in very hostile territory.
Obano's impact was very clear. We gained territory from the pens and it lifted the team.
Quote:nick holder
We had the usual brain fart in the first 5 mins, YC and concede a try
We can't expect to concede 4 tries in the 1st half and expect to win, Sale switched off at that point and allowed us back in.
We still can't play for 80 mins
We still can't close games out with 5 mins to go
We conceded 5 tries so the defence is porous
If they had a decent kicker they would have been out of sight
Some good play by us but we are still weak mentally
After our game in hand, which apparently was our "joker" we are behind Irish and Newcastle and we may be rock bottom again if Bristol manage to perform against a depleted Saracens.
We have still only managed to win 4 first team games all season.
Progress should be measured in wins and we have just not made any.
So there were no positives or don't supporters look for those?
Quote:hemingtonQuote:nick holder
We had the usual brain fart in the first 5 mins, YC and concede a try
We can't expect to concede 4 tries in the 1st half and expect to win, Sale switched off at that point and allowed us back in.
We still can't play for 80 mins
We still can't close games out with 5 mins to go
We conceded 5 tries so the defence is porous
If they had a decent kicker they would have been out of sight
Some good play by us but we are still weak mentally
After our game in hand, which apparently was our "joker" we are behind Irish and Newcastle and we may be rock bottom again if Bristol manage to perform against a depleted Saracens.
We have still only managed to win 4 first team games all season.
Progress should be measured in wins and we have just not made any.
So there were no positives or don't supporters look for those?
Phew! That's a load off Bath Rugby's shoulders! Still not bottom.
Wins is a measure of progress, and last season we got 5 from 24 games. So far this season we have 4 from 12. So... that is pretty clear progress.
Another measure is points difference. Last season -302 from 24 games. This season -23 from 12. Another clear measure of progress.
How about bonus points? Last season 10 from 24 games. This season so far 8 from 12.
It's frustrating of course to see stupidity like Butt early, or to lose a game we had come back so well in. It's frustrating to see the weakness of our lineout and the inconsistency of our maul attack and defence, and the relative paucity of our attack. We aren't in a position to win the Prem, but if you thought that was going to happen this season you're deluded. By any metric, we are clearly and substantially improving.
Another measure is points difference. Last season -302 from 24 games. This season -23 from 12. Another clear measure of progress.
How about bonus points? Last season 10 from 24 games. This season so far 8 from 12.
It's frustrating of course to see stupidity like Butt early, or to lose a game we had come back so well in. It's frustrating to see the weakness of our lineout and the inconsistency of our maul attack and defence, and the relative paucity of our attack. We aren't in a position to win the Prem, but if you thought that was going to happen this season you're deluded. By any metric, we are clearly and substantially improving.
I was never expecting us to win the prem this year, But I was hoping for some more wins. All the comments about more bonus points than last year etc and more wins than at this time last season are relevant for sure. However, we have one win in the last nine, which I do not see as progress, other might, but not me.
I am glad that last year's maddening tendencies have been replaced by slightly less annoying maddening tendencies this year.
It's no longer a certainty that we'll screw up the exit after scoring or that we'll turn a promising attacking move in a furious defence of our goal line. This season we get the obligatory yellow and the guaranteed early set back - not to mention the lost by one score...
It's no longer a certainty that we'll screw up the exit after scoring or that we'll turn a promising attacking move in a furious defence of our goal line. This season we get the obligatory yellow and the guaranteed early set back - not to mention the lost by one score...
Quote:hasta
Wins is a measure of progress, and last season we got 5 from 24 games. So far this season we have 4 from 12. So... that is pretty clear progress.
Another measure is points difference. Last season -302 from 24 games. This season -23 from 12. Another clear measure of progress.
How about bonus points? Last season 10 from 24 games. This season so far 8 from 12.
It's frustrating of course to see stupidity like Butt early, or to lose a game we had come back so well in. It's frustrating to see the weakness of our lineout and the inconsistency of our maul attack and defence, and the relative paucity of our attack. We aren't in a position to win the Prem, but if you thought that was going to happen this season you're deluded. By any metric, we are clearly and substantially improving.
The only metric that matters is league position at the end of the season. If we do finish bottom then we have not improved at all.
I was extremely annoyed last night....but I prefer being frustrated about being pipped last minute by a top team away from home than by shipping 40+ points on average like last season and looking a complete rabble.
We would be a decent team if we :
Sometimes kept 15 people on the park
Didn't sleepwalk through the first quarter
Had a lineout that competed on opposition throw and/or was able to defend the resulting maul
Were able to close out tight games
There were lots of positives I think though:
Beno back and firing - delighted for him
Annett is a tidy player- v reliable back up with good basics
Ted Hill is an excellent acquisition
Love watching mojo play- he just exudes enthusiasm for the game
Was great when jj backed himself and outpaced the cover defence
Were quite clinical for once and didn't balls up attacking lineout mauls over and over and over again like normal
We give away slightly less infuriating pens
We make slightly less infuriating basic handling errors
I think judging solely on wins is a bit simplistic and completely unaligned with jvg targets for this season of being in games and being competitive before kicking on next season.
As an aside can't work out if we are doing the right thing with Bailey. On one hand it's pragmatic to give Gallagher the line kicking duties, spencer the goalkicking and tactical kicking duties, to sign a more experienced 10, pushing him to 15 sometimes etc.
On the other hand completely stripping the main man in a team of all meaningful responsibility is really damaging I think (see smith flourish when faz went off for eng). As I say not even sure on my own opinion on it but if you prioritise pragmatism and the short term you do need to be winning games really.
We would be a decent team if we :
Sometimes kept 15 people on the park
Didn't sleepwalk through the first quarter
Had a lineout that competed on opposition throw and/or was able to defend the resulting maul
Were able to close out tight games
There were lots of positives I think though:
Beno back and firing - delighted for him
Annett is a tidy player- v reliable back up with good basics
Ted Hill is an excellent acquisition
Love watching mojo play- he just exudes enthusiasm for the game
Was great when jj backed himself and outpaced the cover defence
Were quite clinical for once and didn't balls up attacking lineout mauls over and over and over again like normal
We give away slightly less infuriating pens
We make slightly less infuriating basic handling errors
I think judging solely on wins is a bit simplistic and completely unaligned with jvg targets for this season of being in games and being competitive before kicking on next season.
As an aside can't work out if we are doing the right thing with Bailey. On one hand it's pragmatic to give Gallagher the line kicking duties, spencer the goalkicking and tactical kicking duties, to sign a more experienced 10, pushing him to 15 sometimes etc.
On the other hand completely stripping the main man in a team of all meaningful responsibility is really damaging I think (see smith flourish when faz went off for eng). As I say not even sure on my own opinion on it but if you prioritise pragmatism and the short term you do need to be winning games really.
Agree with most of the above. Bailey is a conundrum. MG is usually only called on for leftie kicks. I like OB but can’t help thinking that he should have progressed a little more by now. I don’t see him as the on field leader, instead is constantly overshadowed by BS.
As an aside, whilst I do not blame him for our loss, my reservations about Dickson were once again justified. He really is a poor ref. As a recent ex player, I would expect much more empathy, and far less school teacher behaviour.
As an aside, whilst I do not blame him for our loss, my reservations about Dickson were once again justified. He really is a poor ref. As a recent ex player, I would expect much more empathy, and far less school teacher behaviour.
Lot of doom and gloom here! Look at the league table and except for top two a lot of teams are in contention for top four finish. Including Bath! This seasons results are subject to a lot of fine margins. For example if last minute drop goal at Briiz went two feet to left, if we scored from one yard out against Exeter and won our own last minute scrum against Sharks we would be in top four ! I haven’t mentioned Sarries game ! All fine margins. Not the same as last year by any means. I believe that the building blocks are in place for future success and add to that an increase in confidence and we are there
Not the same as last year, true, but if, if, if, if. We can’t constantly be an “if” team. We need to take advantage of those numerous opportunities not constantly discard them in match after match. It might seem like bad luck but I see it as a symptom of the error strewn nature of our game, our inability to maintain a decent professional standard across the 80 minutes. We lost Friday’s match because we had such a calamitous start, not because they scored in the last minute. It is true that we don’t seem too far off being a good team but we can’t keep making excuses for poor passages of play.
Quote:charlieboa
As an aside can't work out if we are doing the right thing with Bailey. On one hand it's pragmatic to give Gallagher the line kicking duties, spencer the goalkicking and tactical kicking duties, to sign a more experienced 10, pushing him to 15 sometimes etc.
On the other hand completely stripping the main man in a team of all meaningful responsibility is really damaging I think (see smith flourish when faz went off for eng). As I say not even sure on my own opinion on it but if you prioritise pragmatism and the short term you do need to be winning games really.
Completely agree with this, one of the roles of fly half is to manage the game, kicking is a big part of this but if you kick you get a 'feel' for the ball to take away line kicks and place kicks destroys that feel and dismantles confidence. Something that all 10s need.
Trouble is it started last year and we have had to rely on Bailey together with a collection of bit part 10s. With the greatest respect Mojo, Redpath, Francis or TdG aren't regular 10s. The solution would have been to give him games at 15 but Gallagher, Watson and TdG fill those spots.
Then on top of that he gets told he has to relearn how to kick!
Bailey's ability doesn't;t disappear overnight but he has had to learn the hard way. I just hope it hasn't wrecked him.
I hope that being in a squad with a quality 10 like Russell next season lets him rebuild his game.
The 'learn a new kicking technique' thing with Bailey feels awfully similar to what Olly Barkley went through only to ditch it because it clearly wasn't working for him.
Re: if,if,if no we can't constantly be an if team. But we've only just made it to an if team this season. This stuff takes time.
If... We were to finish bottom I would agree that it's very disappointing. But we aren't now and I do not believe we will. I think 8th should be our par this season.
Re: if,if,if no we can't constantly be an if team. But we've only just made it to an if team this season. This stuff takes time.
If... We were to finish bottom I would agree that it's very disappointing. But we aren't now and I do not believe we will. I think 8th should be our par this season.
Quote:hasta
The 'learn a new kicking technique' thing with Bailey feels awfully similar to what Olly Barkley went through only to ditch it because it clearly wasn't working for him.
Re: if,if,if no we can't constantly be an if team. But we've only just made it to an if team this season. This stuff takes time.
If... We were to finish bottom I would agree that it's very disappointing. But we aren't now and I do not believe we will. I think 8th should be our par this season.
I think is quite possible we'll finish bottom. But, if we do, it will be an entirely different bottom compared to last year. This year we are competitive with all but the top 2. We haven't learned how to win close games yet, and I think it will take a couple of slices of good fortune to do so, but when we do, we'll be contenders because everyone is so well matched.
Having Finn Russell as an option at 10 will help that last bit greatly.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanatic
Having Finn Russell as an option at 10 will help that last bit greatly.
My worry about the Russell signing is that he won’t be here for all, or even much of pre-season, and that he’ll arrive in mid-October exhausted from the WC and having to slot into a whole new environment.
OB will be charged with running at 10 across that period, trying to establish patterns and plans for the season, and will then be relegated to second choice once Russell is ready. to pick up the reins.
It could be December before Russell is really exercising much influence - which is probably not the period in the season, weather-wise when his unique attributes will be at their most effective. Then in February he’ll be off with Scotland again. Won’t be much ‘jam’ until the season after next
Quote:OptimistQuote:joethefanatic
Having Finn Russell as an option at 10 will help that last bit greatly.
My worry about the Russell signing is that he won’t be here for all, or even much of pre-season, and that he’ll arrive in mid-October exhausted from the WC and having to slot into a whole new environment.
OB will be charged with running at 10 across that period, trying to establish patterns and plans for the season, and will then be relegated to second choice once Russell is ready. to pick up the reins.
It could be December before Russell is really exercising much influence - which is probably not the period in the season, weather-wise when his unique attributes will be at their most effective. Then in February he’ll be off with Scotland again. Won’t be much ‘jam’ until the season after next
Well, the RWC is in France (which he already knows) and I don't see Scotland getting out of their pool, so I doubt he'll be *that* tired
TBH, I think the season after next is about the best case scenario for when we are likely to be able to step up to being contenders. Russell will give us the weapons to consistently challenge the best. Next season is about learning how to win against the rest.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:OptimistQuote:joethefanatic
Having Finn Russell as an option at 10 will help that last bit greatly.
My worry about the Russell signing is that he won’t be here for all, or even much of pre-season, and that he’ll arrive in mid-October exhausted from the WC and having to slot into a whole new environment.
OB will be charged with running at 10 across that period, trying to establish patterns and plans for the season, and will then be relegated to second choice once Russell is ready. to pick up the reins.
It could be December before Russell is really exercising much influence - which is probably not the period in the season, weather-wise when his unique attributes will be at their most effective. Then in February he’ll be off with Scotland again. Won’t be much ‘jam’ until the season after next
Well, the RWC is in France (which he already knows) and I don't see Scotland getting out of their pool, so I doubt he'll be *that* tired
TBH, I think the season after next is about the best case scenario for when we are likely to be able to step up to being contenders. Russell will give us the weapons to consistently challenge the best. Next season is about learning how to win against the rest.
So that will be 2 seasons of losing before we become a team capable of competing for the top half of the table? Really shouldn’t take that long.
A better backup 10 than Bailey might be the answer to progressing quicker. We have the worst TBP record and tries scored in the league, which says a lot about the effectiveness of Bailey and our attack coach.
As I said before the best metric for measuring our progress is end of season league position. If we finish bottom again you have to question where we are going.
Quote:OutsideBath
OB will be charged with running at 10 across that period, trying to establish patterns and plans for the season, and will then be relegated to second choice once Russell is ready. to pick up the reins.
A better backup 10 than Bailey might be the answer to progressing quicker. We have the worst TBP record and tries scored in the league, which says a lot about the effectiveness of Bailey and our attack coach.
I think you are far too quick to dismiss Bailey OB, he is 21 and in his second season and has been asked to run a back line behind a poor collection of forwards wrecked by injury. Even now we have line out problems.
This season is very volatile, we could have beaten several top clubs, Sale, Tigers, Saracens which would have put us in the top half of the table. You say the table doesn't lie but with a game in hand two wins puts us in the top 6. Are we a top 6 side yet?
If you look at Bailey's peers Charley Atkinson (Tigers) has been able to learn from Burns, Ford, Gopperth and Pollard.
Finn Smith at Saints is having similar issues being on the bench behind Furbank yet he had Biggar as a mentor and I'm pretty sure Finn Smith is a future England 10.
These are all very young players still learning their craft, even with Finn Russell on the way I'd welcome a Jimmy Gopperth or Nick Evans older fly half at Bath. We seem thin at half backs as I'm also not sure Schreuder is a strong back up to Ben Spencer either.
I’ve noticed in recent weeks, which could be march with his goal kicking going downhill, the number of times Bailey commits or is caught up in rucks and not in the pivot. Compare him to du Preez on Friday night and du P barely got his shirt dirty because he focused on playing as a 10, running the show. One reason we tend to just hit one out runners off 9 is cos we haven’t got a 10 as he’s leaning on a ruck!
Might be harsh and jumping to a conclusion, but for me, Bailey likes contact too much, he seeks it too often. He’s a very good tackler for a young man, but a 10 must primarily give structure to the attack both via his actions and communication. His absence must put a lot more stress on Spencer too, as he is basically having to operate without his attacking wing man for large parts of the game.
Bailey is a young lad with serous talent, but I think he needs a bit of a hand from the coaches who should tell him to avoid all attacking rucks, just run the game and if we get turned over because the other players aren’t quick enough, so be it. Think Woodward gave Wilkinson this instruction. I think this would free his mind to focus on our attack, (perhaps) remove the possibility that he can hide in rucks, and give our attack the shape it seems to, for the most part, miss.
Might be harsh and jumping to a conclusion, but for me, Bailey likes contact too much, he seeks it too often. He’s a very good tackler for a young man, but a 10 must primarily give structure to the attack both via his actions and communication. His absence must put a lot more stress on Spencer too, as he is basically having to operate without his attacking wing man for large parts of the game.
Bailey is a young lad with serous talent, but I think he needs a bit of a hand from the coaches who should tell him to avoid all attacking rucks, just run the game and if we get turned over because the other players aren’t quick enough, so be it. Think Woodward gave Wilkinson this instruction. I think this would free his mind to focus on our attack, (perhaps) remove the possibility that he can hide in rucks, and give our attack the shape it seems to, for the most part, miss.
Against Sale that was a deliberate ploy with the defence rushing up to cut off the pass from 10 to 12, I agree on the physicality though DrB. I do wonder if Spencer's service could be quicker though and perhaps he could box kick less as well. Or is that an instruction. Bailey to my mind is a better 15 and he was a different player when with England.
A bigger concern is how the club bring through the likes of Sam Harris and Raff Weston. Keep Weston away from Callard, he kicks it miles already.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
A bigger concern is how the club bring through the likes of Sam Harris and Raff Weston. Keep Weston away from Callard, he kicks it miles already.
Although he got sucked in defending the last try I don't blame Bailey for the loss. We had what, 2 minutes to close out a game with a scrum put in and couldn't do that.
We kicked away too much possession leading up to that scrum, got lucky with the knock on but still ended up with a 2 v 2 on the wing after the penalty.
We kicked away too much possession leading up to that scrum, got lucky with the knock on but still ended up with a 2 v 2 on the wing after the penalty.
If my memory serves me right Bailey had little choice but to step in. The try was created by Annett leaving the short side guard exposed entering ruck, not only did it create an overlap, Quirke managed to pull the outside defenders in, had the cover been running rather than walking we may have scrambled but hey-ho..
Anyways I thought we played really well for 80% of that game, very encouraging to watch us adjust and turn the tide. Got on the wrong side of a few decisions, which didn't help our cause. Plenty of winnable games left.
Anyways I thought we played really well for 80% of that game, very encouraging to watch us adjust and turn the tide. Got on the wrong side of a few decisions, which didn't help our cause. Plenty of winnable games left.
See Irish stuffed Quins, but that's ok as we have a game in hand on them. On the basis of what I watched today we have no chance of beating Irish.
Irish were very good at times when they had quick ball, but Quins also had a (deserved) red card after 20 mins. Both teams look flawed at points.
Quote:hasta
Irish were very good at times when they had quick ball, but Quins also had a (deserved) red card after 20 mins. Both teams look flawed at points.
True but Irish were lucky not to have had the same penalty for Cunningham-South who is a No8 and not a tube station incidentally.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:hasta
Irish were very good at times when they had quick ball, but Quins also had a (deserved) red card after 20 mins. Both teams look flawed at points.
True but Irish were lucky not to have had the same penalty for Cunningham-South who is a No8 and not a tube station incidentally.
Pedant's corner moment shipwrecked. I think you need to update your signature regarding OB.
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Simply because of a drop in form Clarkey? Bit harsh. he is still our youngest back.
Don’t we support though thick and thin?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
he is still our youngest back.
Don’t we support though thick and thin?
Quote:shipwrecked
Are we a top 6 side yet
Not even close, we are a bottom 3 side.
Hopefully won’t finish bottom as it would be nice to say we are better than last season.
I agree OB but if we finished in the top 6, not inconceivable with the season we are having the table doesn’t lie! Or does it?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I’m not sure OB is best served by Spencer’s insistence on taking the lion’s share of responsibility, and - as I see it - too often stifling momentum. Maybe throwing himself into the physical side is OB’s response to that frustration?
Think lots of the criticism of Bailey is fair in that he definitely is having a drop of form. But he is 21 and still one of the brightest prospects in English rugby. His kicking has undoubtedly dropped since last year (It has been improving the last few weeks imo) but he brings a lot more to the team than that, and he is undoubtedly our best 10.
Our attack still has lots of work to do, JVG knows this and players are still adapting to what works. Bailey is only going to get better as we get more ball carriers back. Also the addition of TDG back as another distributor will help massively as it worked last season.
Our attack still has lots of work to do, JVG knows this and players are still adapting to what works. Bailey is only going to get better as we get more ball carriers back. Also the addition of TDG back as another distributor will help massively as it worked last season.
Quote:shipwrecked
Simply because of a drop in form Clarkey? Bit harsh.
Don’t we support though thick and thin?
No sw, isn't he now on a senior contract and the present of Bath Rugby?
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:shipwrecked
I agree OB but if we finished in the top 6, not inconceivable with the season we are having the table doesn’t lie! Or does it?
No SW the table never lies.
Going back to Bailey, I don’t think he is ready right now to guide the team when Russell is away. If we don’t get a better backup 10 then we will continue to have a poor attack.
Personally I’d like to see Worboys given another chance at 10.
Watched the LI v Quinns game and what was striking was the speed of ball from rucks.
We don't do that!!!
We don't do that!!!
Quote:Optimist
I’m not sure OB is best served by Spencer’s insistence on taking the lion’s share of responsibility, and - as I see it - too often stifling momentum. Maybe throwing himself into the physical side is OB’s response to that frustration?
Totally agree.
Find it bizarre to place any significant blame at OB's door- carried an awful team last season aged 20 which implies to me that he has something about him both mentally and physically.
If he was ever given front foot, quick ball I would feel more able to judge him fairly - sadly we have a 'count to 3' rule before getting the ball away from rucks and rarely dominate the gain line.
Criticism of his goalkicking is kind of fair enough though clearly suffering from whatever coaching process he is going through with JC.
I don't really blame Bailey. As you say, he's a young lad still learning and, as I say, I think the system is our overall strategy that is coming from the coaching box down. JvG is on record saying as such. I actually get that this season, as we're trying to play 'hard to beat' rugby and so Spencer bossing that strategy, as an international 9 with a big left boot, makes sense.
My point is that, if I was a coach, I would tell Bailey to get less involved in contact. A 10 is most effective when standing in the pivot, not joining a ruck as 3rd or 4th man. I re-watched a bit of Friday night and Bailey does have a habit of following the ball into contact rather than focusing on playing 10. Ford, Smith, Farrell largely trust their back row/centres to secure the ball, as they set up at 10 to coordinate the next attack. Of course, our attack at the mo involves Spencer counting to 3 and kicking it up in the air, but still better to have Bailey as an option outside if required!
My point is that, if I was a coach, I would tell Bailey to get less involved in contact. A 10 is most effective when standing in the pivot, not joining a ruck as 3rd or 4th man. I re-watched a bit of Friday night and Bailey does have a habit of following the ball into contact rather than focusing on playing 10. Ford, Smith, Farrell largely trust their back row/centres to secure the ball, as they set up at 10 to coordinate the next attack. Of course, our attack at the mo involves Spencer counting to 3 and kicking it up in the air, but still better to have Bailey as an option outside if required!
Agree drbath.
As faults go there are worse ones but you are right that a 10 heavily involved in contacts doesn't help develop a rounded strategic attacking game.
Bit chicken and egg maybe, knows he won't get the ball ever in certain parts of the field as our game plan is so rigid. Who knows.
Just keen we don't waste his clear talent tbh
As faults go there are worse ones but you are right that a 10 heavily involved in contacts doesn't help develop a rounded strategic attacking game.
Bit chicken and egg maybe, knows he won't get the ball ever in certain parts of the field as our game plan is so rigid. Who knows.
Just keen we don't waste his clear talent tbh
Agree. And as faults go it is one with an easy fix, including weaning himself off a natural tendency to step forward into contact and playing in a team that isn't going backwards.
Bailey's first few years of first XV rugby at 10 have been in a team getting hammered on the gain line and then at the breakdown, so he likely has a tendency to look to secure the ball first for his team, more often than not after a neutral or negative carry. The likes of Ford (last season at Tigers) Smith, Farrell and du Preez (this season) have the luxury of knowing that the ball carrier has more than likely got on the front foot and so the ball is likely going to be secure and fast. So, winning the gain line and the battle of the breakdown frees a 10 to float in the pivot and focusing on the next attack not the ball on the floor. One thing leads to the other. Good attack is built. Confidence is built in a young fly half to play fly half. Gains compound etc.
Bailey's first few years of first XV rugby at 10 have been in a team getting hammered on the gain line and then at the breakdown, so he likely has a tendency to look to secure the ball first for his team, more often than not after a neutral or negative carry. The likes of Ford (last season at Tigers) Smith, Farrell and du Preez (this season) have the luxury of knowing that the ball carrier has more than likely got on the front foot and so the ball is likely going to be secure and fast. So, winning the gain line and the battle of the breakdown frees a 10 to float in the pivot and focusing on the next attack not the ball on the floor. One thing leads to the other. Good attack is built. Confidence is built in a young fly half to play fly half. Gains compound etc.
Clear good analysis above. 10's need to stand back a bit and look to the next moves. Ford was very good at this and I learned alot from watching him watching observing and waiting for the ball. I know this is simplified so don't get all academic on me).
You can imagine how it led to this though, a young slightly built 10 perhaps keen to show his team mates that he is happy to do the ugly stuff?
Maybe if the ball went back and around to reach the wingers a bit more the next ruck would be too far away for him to support ;-)
Maybe if the ball went back and around to reach the wingers a bit more the next ruck would be too far away for him to support ;-)
Quote:dr.bath1865
I don't really blame Bailey. My point is that, if I was a coach, I would tell Bailey to get less involved in contact. A 10 is most effective when standing in the pivot, not joining a ruck as 3rd or 4th man. I re-watched a bit of Friday night and Bailey does have a habit of following the ball into contact rather than focusing on playing 10. Ford, Smith, Farrell largely trust their back row/centres to secure the ball, as they set up at 10 to coordinate the next attack. Of course, our attack at the mo involves Spencer counting to 3 and kicking it up in the air, but still better to have Bailey as an option outside if required!
John Horton would never have got involved in contact never mind tackling someone...
Quote:dr.bath1865
I don't really blame Bailey. My point is that, if I was a coach, I would tell Bailey to get less involved in contact. A 10 is most effective when standing in the pivot, not joining a ruck as 3rd or 4th man. I re-watched a bit of Friday night and Bailey does have a habit of following the ball into contact rather than focusing on playing 10. Ford, Smith, Farrell largely trust their back row/centres to secure the ball, as they set up at 10 to coordinate the next attack. Of course, our attack at the mo involves Spencer counting to 3 and kicking it up in the air, but still better to have Bailey as an option outside if required!
So which came first the DrB? If BS doesn't give you the ball are you not likely to drift in? You are of course right and you have to wonder what JPF thinks about it.
Can't see Finn Russell copying OB to be honest.
I think there are a couple of elements at play. One is that our game plan is to play off 9, be that either with one out runners or the box kick. Second is that a 9 gets comfortable playing with a 10 who they know will almost certainly be in a certain spot after every ruck. I'm guessing Bailey's tendency (IMHO only, of course) to commit to contact means that Spencer doesn't know if he's going to be in the pivot. Great 9 and 10 combos share an instinct for where each other are – given our strategy and Bailey's want to get muddy, I'd say the connection between BS and OB isn't as strong as it could be.
Easy fix: tell Bailey he's not allowed to hit rucks. As said above, if we get turned over, blame the forwards, but we need a 10 who plays 10 not 6.
Easy fix: tell Bailey he's not allowed to hit rucks. As said above, if we get turned over, blame the forwards, but we need a 10 who plays 10 not 6.
Quote:Optimist
I’m not sure OB is best served by Spencer’s insistence on taking the lion’s share of responsibility, and - as I see it - too often stifling momentum. Maybe throwing himself into the physical side is OB’s response to that frustration?
Is it Spencer's insistence or JvG decision?
Quote:gaz59Quote:Optimist
I’m not sure OB is best served by Spencer’s insistence on taking the lion’s share of responsibility, and - as I see it - too often stifling momentum. Maybe throwing himself into the physical side is OB’s response to that frustration?
Is it Spencer's insistence or JvG decision?
Well its being going on long before JvG showed up....
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:gaz59Quote:Optimist
I’m not sure OB is best served by Spencer’s insistence on taking the lion’s share of responsibility, and - as I see it - too often stifling momentum. Maybe throwing himself into the physical side is OB’s response to that frustration?
Is it Spencer's insistence or JvG decision?
Well its being going on long before JvG showed up....
Then JvG either agrees with it or stops it
Quote:gaz59Quote:woodpeckerQuote:gaz59Quote:Optimist
I’m not sure OB is best served by Spencer’s insistence on taking the lion’s share of responsibility, and - as I see it - too often stifling momentum. Maybe throwing himself into the physical side is OB’s response to that frustration?
Is it Spencer's insistence or JvG decision?
Well its being going on long before JvG showed up....
Then JvG either agrees with it or stops it
Not if it’s part of his plan. Build a strong pack and play 10 man rugby to get results, then confidence, then give backs go forward ball to create havoc with.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:gaz59Quote:woodpeckerQuote:gaz59Quote:Optimist
I’m not sure OB is best served by Spencer’s insistence on taking the lion’s share of responsibility, and - as I see it - too often stifling momentum. Maybe throwing himself into the physical side is OB’s response to that frustration?
Is it Spencer's insistence or JvG decision?
Well its being going on long before JvG showed up....
Then JvG either agrees with it or stops it
Not if it’s part of his plan. Build a strong pack and play 10 man rugby to get results, then confidence, then give backs go forward ball to create havoc with.
Exactly sw - in that scenario it is JvG's decision for Spencer taking the lion's share of responsibilities
If it has been happening before his arrival that is irrelevant
It has always felt as though Spencer - coming from the winning environment of Saracens - played as if he needed to drag us single-handedly out of the morass of mediocrity that he found. It's pretty hard to criticise him for that, but JVG really ought to be empowering OB a bit more. When you see Fin Smith genuinely challenging for a place on the bench for England, there's plenty of evidence that if you're good enough you're old enough.
Quote:Optimist
It's pretty hard to criticise him for that, but JVG really ought to be empowering OB a bit more. When you see Fin Smith genuinely challenging for a place on the bench for England, there's plenty of evidence that if you're good enough you're old enough.
In general I’m confused why the Bailey hate is still going after this game. He played well overall, that pass to JJ for the break was sublime and should have resulted in a try. His tackling was good and general play aswell. JVG has found a solution for OB’s kicking atm by letting Spencer kick and it worked! Bailey still took some kicks to touch.
Also not relevant at all but for me that was Ojomoh’s best overall game certainly this season, his defence was absolutely class which was his definite weakness. Big hits, solid metres and his pass to Joe was so good just unlucky.
Quote:Optimist
It has always felt as though Spencer - coming from the winning environment of Saracens - played as if he needed to drag us single-handedly out of the morass of mediocrity that he found. It's pretty hard to criticise him for that, but JVG really ought to be empowering OB a bit more. When you see Fin Smith genuinely challenging for a place on the bench for England, there's plenty of evidence that if you're good enough you're old enough.
Don't disagree with any of that Opti. I was just pointing out that if, and it is an if, Spencer is continuing to dominate the responsibilities generally regarded as the fly half preserve then it has to be by JvG design not Ben simply grabbing it
But I'm with sw and see this as probably a team development thing not merely a mistrust in Bailey's ability
I played flyhalf and then scrumhalf.......
I mostly moved to scrumhalf because Stephen Hignell (Alistair's younger brother was bored of scrmhalf!) and because I wanted to be the one deciding who got the ball!!!
I think Spencer needs to realise (or be told) that with a star studded back line they need the ball very fast like the delivery from the LI scrumhalf.
If the ball is untidy or slow then that is the time when BS does something himself.
I mostly moved to scrumhalf because Stephen Hignell (Alistair's younger brother was bored of scrmhalf!) and because I wanted to be the one deciding who got the ball!!!
I think Spencer needs to realise (or be told) that with a star studded back line they need the ball very fast like the delivery from the LI scrumhalf.
If the ball is untidy or slow then that is the time when BS does something himself.
Quote:HK890Quote:Optimist
It's pretty hard to criticise him for that, but JVG really ought to be empowering OB a bit more. When you see Fin Smith genuinely challenging for a place on the bench for England, there's plenty of evidence that if you're good enough you're old enough.
In general I’m confused why the Bailey hate is still going after this game. He played well overall, that pass to JJ for the break was sublime and should have resulted in a try. His tackling was good and general play aswell. JVG has found a solution for OB’s kicking atm by letting Spencer kick and it worked! Bailey still took some kicks to touch.
Also not relevant at all but for me that was Ojomoh’s best overall game certainly this season, his defence was absolutely class which was his definite weakness. Big hits, solid metres and his pass to Joe was so good just unlucky.
Where is anyone saying they hate Orlando Bailey?
Agree that Bailey had a good game and mojo looked back to his best.
I do get frustrated by spencer - he is a class player who has so much ability and drive... but I personally think he needs to be told to share the load and bring more variety to our game.
That is a call for jvg and mad dog but I don't think it's right we wait for that til next season cos Bailey is likely to be our 10 through pre season and first few months of next season.
I do get frustrated by spencer - he is a class player who has so much ability and drive... but I personally think he needs to be told to share the load and bring more variety to our game.
That is a call for jvg and mad dog but I don't think it's right we wait for that til next season cos Bailey is likely to be our 10 through pre season and first few months of next season.
I thought the most encouraging thing, apart from very nearly beating the second placed side away from home, was that we demonstrated that we have at least 2 game plans and we can switch between them as needed. Sale were very good in the first half and we found a way to negate that and come back at them. The faces of the players at the end of the game were not disappointed or sad, they were angry and that tells me we will be consistently winning before long.
Just lovely to see Beno back.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:01:20:18:28 by joethefanatic.
Just lovely to see Beno back.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:02:01:20:18:28 by joethefanatic.
Agree joe, esp on the last point.
Flats and ojo interesting take on it. Implying we always try plan A, normally doesn't work and it takes us til second half to try plan b.
Discussing whether you have a game plan your coach wants or a game plan that fits the inherited squad you have.
I am hoping next season we have something in between I.e. jvg bulks up the forwards but recognises it would be daft not to play to the strengths of Russell when he has redpath, lawrence, muir, coko etc at his disposal
Flats and ojo interesting take on it. Implying we always try plan A, normally doesn't work and it takes us til second half to try plan b.
Discussing whether you have a game plan your coach wants or a game plan that fits the inherited squad you have.
I am hoping next season we have something in between I.e. jvg bulks up the forwards but recognises it would be daft not to play to the strengths of Russell when he has redpath, lawrence, muir, coko etc at his disposal
Quote:charlieboa
I am hoping next season we have something in between I.e. jvg bulks up the forwards but recognises it would be daft not to play to the strengths of Russell when he has redpath, lawrence, muir, coko etc at his disposal
The thing with Russell is that I'm not sure he is a rigid plan follower, he is impetuous which for me is the essence of 10. I'm not sure even he knows what he is going to do next!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:charlieboa
I am hoping next season we have something in between I.e. jvg bulks up the forwards but recognises it would be daft not to play to the strengths of Russell when he has redpath, lawrence, muir, coko etc at his disposal
The thing with Russell is that I'm not sure he is a rigid plan follower, he is impetuous which for me is the essence of 10. I'm not sure even he knows what he is going to do next!
Yep. My orders to the blind side wing would be "don't be more than 10ft away from Finn when he gets the ball.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Right, but jvg has constantly said that year one is making us hard to beat and that this would be at the expense of attack. Not sure why we wouldn't take him at his word.
That reminds me of the relationship Finn Russell had with Vakatawa in midfield with some sublime chips over the centres for Virimi. He did it more than once.
I wonder if he can do the same with Lawrence? @ 1'36" in video below.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I wonder if he can do the same with Lawrence? @ 1'36" in video below.
Quote:shipwrecked
That reminds me of the relationship Finn Russell had with Vakatawa in midfield with some sublime chips over the centres for Virimi. He did it more than once.
I wonder if he can do the same with Lawrence? @ 1'36" in video below.
The idea of Cokanasiga on one shoulder and Ollie Lawrence on the other must seem rather attractive to an independently minded 10.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
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