Bath
MISSION IMPOSSIBLE? SARACENS v BATH
Ellis: lineout target?
By PG Tips
October 11 2022
Bath’s task is beginning to look like “Mission Impossible” away at Saracens on Saturday. The table toppers, serial past champions and currently unbeaten, host the Premiership’s basement club who have gathered a mere 4 bonus points in 5 lost games. In home derby defeat against Gloucester last weekend, Bath lost both Schreuder and Francis with concerning injuries, while Green struggled through the final minutes after an ankle knock. Impossible just got harder. If that is possible.
A further difficulty is how to nullify Saracens’ strengths. Rather than trying to spot who the danger men are, it is the overall system and gameplan that sets them apart. Elliott Daly won plaudits for his play last weekend, this week it could be another of their many internationals. Even the absence of George and Itoje, both injured and Mako Vunipola (red carded last weekend) offers minimal comfort. Saracens have been adept at making players, as well as their whole team, more than the sum of their parts for several seasons.
With a mounting injury toll and issues to address in every area of the game, Johann van Graan faces a near impossible selection dilemma. Does he stick with the core of recent teams -ostensibly the best fit and available mix -or twist in hope that fresh blood injects improvement? One bright positive last Saturday was solidity and go forward in midfield, from Ollie Lawrence, now signed on a long-term deal. He looks bound to feature and as he and the rest of the midfield gel we can hope for some real penetration in the middle of the pitch. Notably the backline attack became more fluent once Orlando Bailey replaced Piers Francis. He, Redpath & Lawrence should be the midfield of choice.
No team can expect to win with a misfiring lineout. Chopping and changing is unlikely to help here. Attwood and Roux are the best and strongest locks available, so the answer would seem to be in the focus of the throw. Front ball to Miles Reid was the most successful ploy last weekend but Gloucester made easy yards on every overthrow because the props stationed at 7 were beaten for pace. Maybe the answer is to use Ellis as the jumper, leaving Reid in the hunter/scavenger role at the back?
Merigan went well against the Cherry & Whites, carrying to effect and doing excellent work in cover defence. He is young and raw but may be the answer at 8 if Bath are to attempt to match Saracens’ backrow heft. Otherwise, if van Graan does not wish to risk the youngster two weekends running, it may be worth giving the other of this week’s signings Lee-Warner a go.
Halfback is the really knotty problem. Schreuder looks to be out for a while, there is no indication of a speedy return for Ben Spencer, which leaves Green, if he can recover in time from his knock, plus two academy lads- Carr-Smith and Lock. Bailey can slot in as starting 10, but who will cover him? This is not the fixture to introduce Sam Harris and the coaches may not wish to expose Worboys in this one either. That leaves Redpath and Ojomoh and crossed fingers for no further injuries.
In a disappointing defeat to Gloucester, there were signs of a more cohesive approach and some determination in attack, so I expect van Graan to stick largely to the players and gameplan we have seen so far.
To build on the positive signs Bath must stop leaking early scores. Maybe JP Ferreira is happy he has no hair: after 5 defeats and 23 tries conceded, he would have torn most of it out already! Hopefully he can pick up a few vulpine tips from his opposite number after the game.
Sadly, anything other than defeat seems impossible. The players though will believe that they can win. They must. Their mission? Win, lose or draw - to play with pride and find improvement.
Possible Teams:
Bath: Schoeman, Dunn, Stewart, Attwood, Roux, Ellis, Reid, Merigan. Green, Bailey. Hamer-Webb, Redpath, Lawrence, Cokanasiga. Gallagher.
Replacements: Cordwell, Annett, Coetzee, Richards, Lee-Warner. Carr-Smith, Ojomoh, Butt.
Saracens: Mawi, Pifileti, Riccione, Tizard, Iziekwe, McFarland, Earl, B Vunipola. Van Zyl, Farrell. Lewington, Tompkins, Lozowksi, Malins. Daly.
Replacements: Woolstencroft, Flynn, Judge, Hunter-Hill, Wray. De Haas, Goode, Maitland.
Digg
Delicious
Facebook
Reddit
StumbleuponMISSION IMPOSSIBLE? SARACENS v BATH. TEAM's Up!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 11/10/2022 10:47
11/10/2022 10:47
What do you think? You can have your say by posting below.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:18:09:29:28 by P G Tips.
If you do not already have an account Click here to Register.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:18:09:29:28 by P G Tips.
Excellent preview PG and an interesting insight into the situation at Bath currently. The game against Glaws looked like a good performance to build on. It sounds like you've been pretty badly impacted by injuries especially in a few key positions. Set piece will, as always, be vital so that could be telling.
In terms of Sarries I think your suggested team sheet is very close. Isiekwe, Woolstencroft and Maitland all out injured the first two I think not expected back any time soon but others named by you will step up into the XV and a few Academy players into the 23.
I think we're fortunate in having a very settled backs division in place and as long as the forwards can deliver a platform we will be in good shape. Like you we've struggled with our lineout a bit this season but McFarland has been something of a one-man sticking plaster in that regard. Our scrum has struggled a bit too. Riccioni back is a plus but we will certainly lose Mako. Potentially an area of vulnerability?
I hope it's a good game and that all those who travel do so safely
In terms of Sarries I think your suggested team sheet is very close. Isiekwe, Woolstencroft and Maitland all out injured the first two I think not expected back any time soon but others named by you will step up into the XV and a few Academy players into the 23.
I think we're fortunate in having a very settled backs division in place and as long as the forwards can deliver a platform we will be in good shape. Like you we've struggled with our lineout a bit this season but McFarland has been something of a one-man sticking plaster in that regard. Our scrum has struggled a bit too. Riccioni back is a plus but we will certainly lose Mako. Potentially an area of vulnerability?
I hope it's a good game and that all those who travel do so safely
The only aims from this game will be to concede as few points as possible & definitely under 40 and to avoid further injuries, though the latter seems impossible for Bath!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:12:04:59:43 by Bath Hammer.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:12:04:59:43 by Bath Hammer.
Certainly mission impossible. Out of interest, when was the last time we weren't hit for 50 at Sarries? I think we nicked a win there once a few years ago and drew in 2020, but generally since the Allianz/Stonex was built it's been fallow ground for us.
Here's hoping for a positive performance and keeping it respectable. Who will play SH I wonder. Hopefully one of Green/Spencer comes through...be a bit brutal for an academy lad.
Here's hoping for a positive performance and keeping it respectable. Who will play SH I wonder. Hopefully one of Green/Spencer comes through...be a bit brutal for an academy lad.
Odds for the win are Saracens at 1/12 and Bath 12/1...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3k
Odds for the win are Saracens at 1/12 and Bath 12/1...
That looks generous at 1/12, I may put a million quid on it.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Just hope the plastic pitch doesn’t result in yet more injuries for us.
Quote:Clarkey3k
Odds for the win are Saracens at 1/12 and Bath 12/1...
I think thats the first time i've been attracted to both bets! but i think sarries
On pAddy power its 1/18, even that looks worth it maybe not a million though Bathmatt
Quote:woodpecker
On pAddy power its 1/18, even that looks worth it maybe not a million though Bathmatt
Not a big gambler, but it's pretty much impossible to resist putting a big bet on Sarries. Closest thing to a guaranteed win you can get.
So on Betfred, i bet £100 and get back £108.33 - is it worth it? obviously one could bet more but seems possibly foolish. Could something happen to the sarries team between now and then, could Bath suddenly click, (both extremely unlikely!!)
Quote:woodpecker
On pAddy power its 1/18, even that looks worth it maybe not a million though Bathmatt
It's committed to another Veyron anyway now Woody, my currently one is a bit dirty.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:woodpecker
So on Betfred, i bet £100 and get back £108.33 - is it worth it? obviously one could bet more but seems possibly foolish. Could something happen to the sarries team between now and then, could Bath suddenly click, (both extremely unlikely!!)
That's an 8% return on your capital at v low risk, a bargain in these tough times...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:woodpecker
So on Betfred, i bet £100 and get back £108.33 - is it worth it? obviously one could bet more but seems possibly foolish. Could something happen to the sarries team between now and then, could Bath suddenly click, (both extremely unlikely!!)
That's an 8% return on your capital at v low risk, a bargain in these tough times...
Ok I did it for a laugh, now I need to work out what i could do with my £8.33 must be able to get a couple of pints in Wetherspoons
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:Clarkey3kQuote:woodpecker
So on Betfred, i bet £100 and get back £108.33 - is it worth it? obviously one could bet more but seems possibly foolish. Could something happen to the sarries team between now and then, could Bath suddenly click, (both extremely unlikely!!)
That's an 8% return on your capital at v low risk, a bargain in these tough times...
Ok I did it for a laugh, now I need to work out what i could do with my £8.33 must be able to get a couple of pints in Wetherspoons
There's a £1.99 per pint promotion on or coming soon at Spoons, four of those should help drown your sorrows...
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:Clarkey3kQuote:woodpecker
So on Betfred, i bet £100 and get back £108.33 - is it worth it? obviously one could bet more but seems possibly foolish. Could something happen to the sarries team between now and then, could Bath suddenly click, (both extremely unlikely!!)
That's an 8% return on your capital at v low risk, a bargain in these tough times...
Ok I did it for a laugh, now I need to work out what i could do with my £8.33 must be able to get a couple of pints in Wetherspoons
Did you get them at 1/12? Skybet moved to 1/50 now, possibly as a result on your actions!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:woodpeckerQuote:Clarkey3kQuote:woodpecker
So on Betfred, i bet £100 and get back £108.33 - is it worth it? obviously one could bet more but seems possibly foolish. Could something happen to the sarries team between now and then, could Bath suddenly click, (both extremely unlikely!!)
That's an 8% return on your capital at v low risk, a bargain in these tough times...
Ok I did it for a laugh, now I need to work out what i could do with my £8.33 must be able to get a couple of pints in Wetherspoons
Did you get them at 1/12? Skybet moved to 1/50 now, possibly as a result on your actions!
yes
4 pints here i come!
Quote:woodpecker
Ok I did it for a laugh, now I need to work out what i could do with my £8.33 must be able to get a couple of pints in Wetherspoons
I feel a Bath upset coming on!! Will happily contribute to COMLfunding should your frivolity lead to the world turning upside down!
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:Clarkey3kQuote:woodpecker
So on Betfred, i bet £100 and get back £108.33 - is it worth it? obviously one could bet more but seems possibly foolish. Could something happen to the sarries team between now and then, could Bath suddenly click, (both extremely unlikely!!)
That's an 8% return on your capital at v low risk, a bargain in these tough times...
Ok I did it for a laugh, now I need to work out what i could do with my £8.33 must be able to get a couple of pints in Wetherspoons
I couldn't resist either, probably the easiest money we'll make for some time.
I went for Sarries by more than 40 spread for (effectively) 18-1. I've put my money where my mouth is and if it happens I'll spend my £18 on NINE pints at Spoons.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Bath Rugby team to play Saracens
15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Cameron Redpath, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Louis Schreuder; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2 Tom Dunn ©, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Quinn Roux, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Richard de Carpentier
Impact players
16 Niall Annett, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Fergus Lee-Warner, 20 Wesley White, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 George Worboys, 23 Max Ojomoh
15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Cameron Redpath, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Louis Schreuder; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2 Tom Dunn ©, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Quinn Roux, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Richard de Carpentier
Impact players
16 Niall Annett, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Fergus Lee-Warner, 20 Wesley White, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 George Worboys, 23 Max Ojomoh
Team up. Schreuder fit to play.:
Bath Rugby team to play Saracens
15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Cameron Redpath, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Louis Schreuder; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2 Tom Dunn ©, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Quinn Roux, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Richard de Carpentier
Impact players
16 Niall Annett, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Fergus Lee-Warner, 20 Wesley White, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 George Worboys, 23 Max Ojomoh
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Bath Rugby team to play Saracens
15 Matt Gallagher, 14 Joe Cokanasiga, 13 Ollie Lawrence, 12 Cameron Redpath, 11 Ruaridh McConnochie, 10 Orlando Bailey, 9 Louis Schreuder; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2 Tom Dunn ©, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Dave Attwood, 5 Quinn Roux, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Miles Reid, 8 Richard de Carpentier
Impact players
16 Niall Annett, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Fergus Lee-Warner, 20 Wesley White, 21 Tom Carr-Smith, 22 George Worboys, 23 Max Ojomoh
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Blimey, that back row is lightweight and the replacement half backs very green. Good job we aren't playing anyone too good. I hear that their 4 is worth looking out for - people expect big things of him.
1 Eroni Mawi
2 Kapeli Pifeleti
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Theo McFarland
7 Jackson Wray
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Elliot Daly
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Max Malins
15 Alex Goode
Replacements:
16 Theo Dan
17 James Flynn
18 Christian Judge
19 Andy Christie
20 Ben Earl
21 Ruben de Haas
22 Manu Vunipola
23 Alex Lewington
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
1 Eroni Mawi
2 Kapeli Pifeleti
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Maro Itoje
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Theo McFarland
7 Jackson Wray
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Owen Farrell (c)
11 Elliot Daly
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Max Malins
15 Alex Goode
Replacements:
16 Theo Dan
17 James Flynn
18 Christian Judge
19 Andy Christie
20 Ben Earl
21 Ruben de Haas
22 Manu Vunipola
23 Alex Lewington
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
SARACENS V BATH RUGBY
Saturday 15 October, 15:00
StoneX Stadium
R6 Gallagher Premiership
BBC Radio Bristol, PRTV Live
Referee: Luke Pearce
Assistant Referees: Craig Maxwell-Keys & John Meredith
TMO: Claire Hodnett
Saturday 15 October, 15:00
StoneX Stadium
R6 Gallagher Premiership
BBC Radio Bristol, PRTV Live
Referee: Luke Pearce
Assistant Referees: Craig Maxwell-Keys & John Meredith
TMO: Claire Hodnett
I thought/hoped/prayed they might have at least rested a couple.
Would be stunned if we managed to keep this under 50.
Would be stunned if we managed to keep this under 50.
Quote:charlieboa
We are getting to get slaughtered aren't we.....
Sarries up to 1/66 after the team announcement.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:charlieboa
We are getting to get slaughtered aren't we.....
Sarries up to 1/66 after the team announcement.
The interesting point for me is how Sarries have managed to assemble such a quality squad within the cap and ours is so sub standard by comparison.
Quote:woodpecker
im going to watch it in Wetherspoons
I'm going to go for a motorcycle ride.
Why would we pay Morozov and Hill for a month and not play them? I know Hill came with a knock but I believed he was nearly fit? If they both decide to leave in November without playing that is bizarre to me.
Not expecting anything but a sound beating tomorrow. Just hope we get stuck in and compete.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Not expecting anything but a sound beating tomorrow. Just hope we get stuck in and compete.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53Quote:charlieboa
We are getting to get slaughtered aren't we.....
Sarries up to 1/66 after the team announcement.
The interesting point for me is how Sarries have managed to assemble such a quality squad within the cap and ours is so sub standard by comparison.
Me too! I roughly got to about £4m+ for their 23! Not a lot left for the rest of the squad!
Meesa thinkin weesa gonna get pumped.
We will do well to keep the score difference + injuries down under 30.
Bath by 2 points!
We will do well to keep the score difference + injuries down under 30.
Bath by 2 points!
Quote:MalcoQuote:woodpecker
im going to watch it in Wetherspoons
I'm going to go for a motorcycle ride.
Pop in and I'll buy you a pint with my £8.33 winnings.
Quote:CoochieCooQuote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53Quote:charlieboa
We are getting to get slaughtered aren't we.....
Sarries up to 1/66 after the team announcement.
The interesting point for me is how Sarries have managed to assemble such a quality squad within the cap and ours is so sub standard by comparison.
Me too! I roughly got to about £4m+ for their 23! Not a lot left for the rest of the squad!
Reports may well be completely wrong but it's claimed that maro and faz on more than 750k so marquee.
Then you have Billy and mako on more than 500k allegedly.
Earls new contract rumoured to be more than 400k.
That's marquee and c1.5m of 5m gone already.
3.5m to fit in about 50 other players. 70k each when you have likes of riccioni, george, van zyl ,daly, tompkins, Malins, loz, goode , lewington, maitland etc.
They must be squeaky clean now so fair play to them, doing it somehow!
More pertinent probably is I reckon we will max out cap and injury dispensation this season and probably still be bottom!
The cap is loads more than £5m. Academy credits, international credits, marquees, long contracts for the top players so still using the 25% cap 'fudge'. I bet you could squeeze it north of £8m if you tried.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:OutsideBath
The interesting point for me is how Sarries have managed to assemble such a quality squad within the cap and ours is so sub standard by comparison.
They haven't 'bought' in much more expensive talent than we have. They've just increased the value of just about every player that they contract. Bath, on the other hand, have not. That's the disparity.
Quote:BathMatt53
The cap is loads more than £5m. Academy credits, international credits, marquees, long contracts for the top players so still using the 25% cap 'fudge'. I bet you could squeeze it north of £8m if you tried.
Always forget the 25% fudge.
The academy credits is maxed out at a certain number of players times c60k? Or something along those lines?
How do international credits work?
I think we have been a bit naive on elements of this- prime example losing a marquee this season (I assume)
I think Bruce backs up hugely to max out where we are clever enough to so almost comical you can end up with the those two sets of 23....
Coochie Coo, and I guesstimated about £3M from your injured list that Malco posted on our board. It must be incredibly hard dealing with that.
Charlieboa after Sarries were found guilty of breaching the cap I'm never going to say 100% they aren't now but I feel pretty confident. The consequences for doing so are much more severe now, the abilities to investigate enhanced. Add to that I believe that Sarries are under scrutiny not just from the SCD but also other Clubs like never before.
The figures you mention are interesting. From the Ruck so I'd not take as much notice as it they appeared in one of the "papers" but just to take two examples even if that £500K for Mako and Billy is right they'd like have the 25% fudge applied so it would be £375K each against cap.
I have no idea what Earls new contract is but even if it is £400K that would be from next season. Given both he and Max renewed before going on loan to Bristol they could have been on/ and still be on anywhere between quarter and half of that even now.
I'd also given the example of McFarland. Brought in last season on slightly more than an Academy contract from what I understand. Sarries signed him to a long term deal at the end of the season and I am sure they will have reflected how well he was doing but even so I doubt he's on what he'd cost if say a Club wanted to sign him now.
Agreed BathMatt, easily.
I've been having this discussion on another board and even leaving aside other reasons that some players might join or stay at a Club for less money (I don't mean the property ones!) I can see Sarries currently spending over £8M if you include the things you mention. Given some Clubs have neither Marquess, nor are they spending to Cap you could quite possibly have the "richest" team spending double what the "poorest" one is (substitute irresponsible/responsible if you want)
During the Covid negotiations three Clubs were named as not being willing to reduce the cap or Marquees; Bath, Bristol and Chiefs (Sarries not named but I have no trouble believing they could have been one of those Clubs as well)
As a Super-majority was needed to swing the vote they used their voting power to basically bargain up the "fudges" which with good management would allow them to continue to spend much nearer the old cap than the new until the cap went back up.
IMO that is where one of the major issues lies with the current imbalance.
Given PRL Clubs have in recent Months vetoed allowing games to go ahead which they weren't effected by (When the Queen died) and more recently vetoed changing the fixture list to accommodate Wuss not being part of it it is hard not to feel PRL are their own worst enemy if what they really want is the game rather than individual Clubs to come first.
Charlieboa after Sarries were found guilty of breaching the cap I'm never going to say 100% they aren't now but I feel pretty confident. The consequences for doing so are much more severe now, the abilities to investigate enhanced. Add to that I believe that Sarries are under scrutiny not just from the SCD but also other Clubs like never before.
The figures you mention are interesting. From the Ruck so I'd not take as much notice as it they appeared in one of the "papers" but just to take two examples even if that £500K for Mako and Billy is right they'd like have the 25% fudge applied so it would be £375K each against cap.
I have no idea what Earls new contract is but even if it is £400K that would be from next season. Given both he and Max renewed before going on loan to Bristol they could have been on/ and still be on anywhere between quarter and half of that even now.
I'd also given the example of McFarland. Brought in last season on slightly more than an Academy contract from what I understand. Sarries signed him to a long term deal at the end of the season and I am sure they will have reflected how well he was doing but even so I doubt he's on what he'd cost if say a Club wanted to sign him now.
Quote:BathMatt53
The cap is loads more than £5m. Academy credits, international credits, marquees, long contracts for the top players so still using the 25% cap 'fudge'. I bet you could squeeze it north of £8m if you tried.
Agreed BathMatt, easily.
I've been having this discussion on another board and even leaving aside other reasons that some players might join or stay at a Club for less money (I don't mean the property ones!) I can see Sarries currently spending over £8M if you include the things you mention. Given some Clubs have neither Marquess, nor are they spending to Cap you could quite possibly have the "richest" team spending double what the "poorest" one is (substitute irresponsible/responsible if you want)
During the Covid negotiations three Clubs were named as not being willing to reduce the cap or Marquees; Bath, Bristol and Chiefs (Sarries not named but I have no trouble believing they could have been one of those Clubs as well)
As a Super-majority was needed to swing the vote they used their voting power to basically bargain up the "fudges" which with good management would allow them to continue to spend much nearer the old cap than the new until the cap went back up.
IMO that is where one of the major issues lies with the current imbalance.
Given PRL Clubs have in recent Months vetoed allowing games to go ahead which they weren't effected by (When the Queen died) and more recently vetoed changing the fixture list to accommodate Wuss not being part of it it is hard not to feel PRL are their own worst enemy if what they really want is the game rather than individual Clubs to come first.
Very interesting tool for exploring how this all works (SC)
I haven't used the downloaded forms and can't vouch for the security of them but this form gives you an idea of what players are likely to cost once various credits are applied. You have to guess the salary yourself which makes if less effective but it's fun for noodling what you think a squad might cost:
[prlcapcalc.squarespace.com]
Don't get freaked out by the Club salary chart comparisons. It's just a TEST version so those figures aren't accurate. Also no Chiefs who are presumably off somewhere else setting up their own League?
I haven't used the downloaded forms and can't vouch for the security of them but this form gives you an idea of what players are likely to cost once various credits are applied. You have to guess the salary yourself which makes if less effective but it's fun for noodling what you think a squad might cost:
[prlcapcalc.squarespace.com]
Don't get freaked out by the Club salary chart comparisons. It's just a TEST version so those figures aren't accurate. Also no Chiefs who are presumably off somewhere else setting up their own League?
Quote:hemington
I thought Mako had been banned for 3 games
He has. Although I think it's 2 if he does the tackle awareness course.
Are you thinking of "Manu" who is on the bench? He's a relation and a Fly-half I don't think we'll risk him in the front row!
The fudges must end for most soon?
Was it contracts to be signed before July 2020?
So a 3 Yr extension ends next summer?
Sure the vunipolas have extended since 2020 but maybe I am wrong or they have done the classic 1 year add on to 'same' contract.
None of this is a criticism of sarries, much more of bath- we seem to miss all these tricks.
You feel the pain of players like Malins going to balance the cap but you will bring in a back equivalent of mcfarland and be fine, or even better.
Was it contracts to be signed before July 2020?
So a 3 Yr extension ends next summer?
Sure the vunipolas have extended since 2020 but maybe I am wrong or they have done the classic 1 year add on to 'same' contract.
None of this is a criticism of sarries, much more of bath- we seem to miss all these tricks.
You feel the pain of players like Malins going to balance the cap but you will bring in a back equivalent of mcfarland and be fine, or even better.
Is this Maro's first game back after injury too?
He has beaten us on his own quite a few times,
He has beaten us on his own quite a few times,
Quote:charlieboa
The fudges must end for most soon?
You feel the pain of players like Malins going to balance the cap but you will bring in a back equivalent of mcfarland and be fine, or even better.
The "fudges" depend on the contracts but yes I'd guess that the most will be coming to an end very soon. The Vunipolae exercised their +1s this season (which with the RWC on the horizon and the chance of France/Japan? after makes a lot of sense)
I'm less clear re Marque players. The allowance goes down to 1 Marquee player at the end of the season unless you have two under contract in which case it goes down to 1 when the first contract expires. I found a bit that said you can have two Marquee players as long as they had "active contracts" in June 2020. No whether that means contracts full stop, Marquee contracts, or whatever I'm not clear which is ofc a large part of the problem when we talk about these things they seem purposefully obscure.
I'm gutted about Malins and think he's a generational talent (like Goode in terms of the Club game maybe not International) but as you say you can't keep all the talent you develop. Hopefully whatever the future holds it will be easier to hold onto home grown talent. Clubs with great youth coming through like Bath, Saints, Tigers etc should all be very positive on that front.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:woodpeckerQuote:Clarkey3kQuote:woodpecker
So on Betfred, i bet £100 and get back £108.33 - is it worth it? obviously one could bet more but seems possibly foolish. Could something happen to the sarries team between now and then, could Bath suddenly click, (both extremely unlikely!!)
That's an 8% return on your capital at v low risk, a bargain in these tough times...
Ok I did it for a laugh, now I need to work out what i could do with my £8.33 must be able to get a couple of pints in Wetherspoons
Did you get them at 1/12? Skybet moved to 1/50 now,
possibly as a result on your actions!
Best bet I’ve found is Sarries to score most tries in game at 1/9 on Bet365
It just shows where supporters feel we are at now with no one seriously thinking we can keep the score anywhere near respectable. My feeling is they can score at will & that there is not likely to be much more than 10 minutes between each crossing of our whitewash. The odds fully reflect the gulf between the two sides.
The other issue that has to be addressed by JvG, poor chap, is why a team of the calibre of Saracens can put out a team like that with hardly any injuries whereas we suffer at least a couple each match, many being serious. We are going to make little progress whilst that endures. Clearly no progress has been made on that despite the change of medical staff.
Interesting point on marquee OM. I imagine anyone with 2 currently will be down to 1 next season unless they are on a 4/5 year contract signed in 2020.
We have always assumed faletau and Watson were our marquee so lost both and just moved up next highest earner.
I doubt we gave anyone on more than 300k (stuart/underhill/spencer possibly) hence the huge squad.
Gives jvg the option of bringing in a big player as marquee if he wanted and Bruce was supportive .
You lost Koch this season, Malins next season- you are clearly having to make sacrifices to stay within cap but I think more may need to go with the cap not going back up next season. Sure you will be using some clever, innovative thinking to try and minimise disruption.
We have always assumed faletau and Watson were our marquee so lost both and just moved up next highest earner.
I doubt we gave anyone on more than 300k (stuart/underhill/spencer possibly) hence the huge squad.
Gives jvg the option of bringing in a big player as marquee if he wanted and Bruce was supportive .
You lost Koch this season, Malins next season- you are clearly having to make sacrifices to stay within cap but I think more may need to go with the cap not going back up next season. Sure you will be using some clever, innovative thinking to try and minimise disruption.
OM - who do you have missing this week?
We have a bit of a chip on our shoulders about how many we are always missing- tbf this season has been a joke. I tend to say everyone has same issues, get on with it....but it's been extraordinary.
Assume you are missing mako, george, woolstencroft, isiekwe, maitland? Imagine there are loads of others that we just don't know as well as you? Still, some of your big players unavilable....
We have a bit of a chip on our shoulders about how many we are always missing- tbf this season has been a joke. I tend to say everyone has same issues, get on with it....but it's been extraordinary.
Assume you are missing mako, george, woolstencroft, isiekwe, maitland? Imagine there are loads of others that we just don't know as well as you? Still, some of your big players unavilable....
Aled Davis and Roti Segun are probably the only other ones missing.
Pretty much as you and saracen1971 say charlieboa.
Bello our second choice TH, RA-H who is probably our third choice LH now given Mawis improvement, Morris and Taylor both in the centre. Harris our 7s convert winger and I think that's it?
Looking at the list of players you have missing puts ours into massive perspective.
Bello our second choice TH, RA-H who is probably our third choice LH now given Mawis improvement, Morris and Taylor both in the centre. Harris our 7s convert winger and I think that's it?
Looking at the list of players you have missing puts ours into massive perspective.
Quote:Bath Hammer
It just shows where supporters feel we are at now with no one seriously thinking we can keep the score anywhere near respectable. My feeling is they can score at will & that there is not likely to be much more than 10 minutes between each crossing of our whitewash. The odds fully reflect the gulf between the two sides.
Indeed, sad state of affairs when we’re gambling on a negative Bath score line ! Are there any odds out there as to wether Bath will actually win a game this season ?
Anyway, this could be a big banana skin for Sarries……….so Bath by 2 !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
I've just looked at my Somerset Live write up on today's game which features the following odds, Saracens 1/100, Bath 16/1...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Mike the Taxi
Bath in the lead!
A temporary blip, more importantly have we had any injuries yet?
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Mike the Taxi
Bath in the lead!
A temporary blip, more importantly have we had any injuries yet?
HIA for Stuart :/
That last penalty was very harsh, ball was ripped. Much much better though Bath! 16-10 at half time.
I very much don't want to jinx things here, and I can run around and touch every item made of wood in my flat if needed to combat saying this causing any future bad luck, but, has anyone else noticed that we haven't had a card for any kind of high hit this season? Seems a massive improvement on what was a pretty bad kind of indiscipline last season...
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Mike the Taxi
Bath in the lead!
A temporary blip, more importantly have we had any injuries yet?
Stuart - Knee
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:ReclusQuote:OutsideBathQuote:Mike the Taxi
Bath in the lead!
A temporary blip, more importantly have we had any injuries yet?
HIA for Stuart :/
Thought it was too much to ask for even half a game without any injuries..
Great try for Joe C
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:15:16:11:50 by Reclus.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:15:16:11:50 by Reclus.
Generally better, but really done stupid individual lapses for penalties and tries.
Quote:Woodpecker
Hmm
Time for your first pint now woodpecker...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:Woodpecker
Hmm
Time for your first pint now woodpecker...
There’s still time!
Can't believe I'm typing this, but we should have won that. The Schroeder micro knock on and that Ojomoh pass. If either go the other way, that's a 5 point win at Sarries. Gutted but pleased. We are definitely improving.
Excellent stuff Bath, you could easily have nicked that and that was a proper team performance.
The difference Lawrence makes is incredible. Him running with Coka on his shoulder is an awful proposition for the defence as we saw. He'd be my Bath MotM
The difference Lawrence makes is incredible. Him running with Coka on his shoulder is an awful proposition for the defence as we saw. He'd be my Bath MotM
Oh and Lawrence is the best bit of business we've done in years. Gallagher excellent too.
Punched well above our level.
Did we manage to finish the game without any serious injuries?
Did we manage to finish the game without any serious injuries?
Delighted with that performance. I never expected us to stay in the game. How wrong I was. Surely we can secure a win soon.
That is a very decent return, hope springs despite hating losing.
I lost the commentary in the 2nd half, I assume the yellow card was important?
BTW, I don't know who the Radio Bristol commentator was but thanks for telling the listener, me, where the ball was from time to time, an improvement.
I lost the commentary in the 2nd half, I assume the yellow card was important?
BTW, I don't know who the Radio Bristol commentator was but thanks for telling the listener, me, where the ball was from time to time, an improvement.
Quote:hasta
Stuart possible injury. Didn't see any obvious others.
Only one injury is a big plus.
we really, really could have won that. If we play like that every week we are going to cause most teams a lot of problems. I hope this is the corner well and truly turned.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:hasta
Stuart possible injury. Didn't see any obvious others.
Only one injury is a big plus.
Was Mojo for coko tactical?
Weird one if so but fingers crossed
Yellow card cost us 14 points (although we scored during then as well). Fair yellow.
Stuart knee injury doesn't look great according to JvG.
Stuart knee injury doesn't look great according to JvG.
Wow, consider me humbly wrong. Well done Bath, I only saw the last quarter, but we were hitting with intent throughout. Threats in the back, rumbling forward from the forwards, guts and discipline aplenty. If we’d played like this in the first 5 games, we might have a hatful of wins. I like this trajectory.
Has coetzee left?
If so lets get him back?
Stuart right up there in terms of players you wouldn't want to lose tho I guess it may be englands loss more than baths in short term.
Sounds like it could be another nasty long term one though.
If so lets get him back?
Stuart right up there in terms of players you wouldn't want to lose tho I guess it may be englands loss more than baths in short term.
Sounds like it could be another nasty long term one though.
Quote:OldMarovian
Excellent stuff Bath, you could easily have nicked that and that was a proper team performance.
The difference Lawrence makes is incredible. Him running with Coka on his shoulder is an awful proposition for the defence as we saw. He'd be my Bath MotM
Lawrence made 254 yds. Rest of bath 23 made 376 yds
11 defenders beaten. 2 assists, one disallowed try.
Great effort
That's two performances in a row to be proud of in a row, a long time since that's happened! 2 points away at the StoneX is an absolute result. There were some amazing performances across the whole team spearheaded by the outstanding Ollie Lawrence. Bath have been chasing a centre that can cross the gain line for a very long time, from Sam Burgess to Robbie Fruean and Jamie Roberts. No one has been able to demand the shirt like Ollie Lawrence. Beyond the metres made ball in hand, two try assists etc the improvement in defensive he has been able to bring in such a short about of time is incredibly impressive and frankly embarrassing for JJ.
I am impressed by Bath's discipline to keep with the box kick plan in the middle of the pitch and pressuring the breakdown. It was incredibly effective and we stuck to it even when it looked tempting to play loose, which is in the past has been a recipe for conceding a try BP by half time. That's the pragmatism JVG informed was the priority for the season and it's slowly, even which a lengthy injury list is falling into place. The next stage of Bath's evolution is to develop some structure for when the approach play has worked. One out runners in the 22 is not going to cut it against the best sides.
I am impressed by Bath's discipline to keep with the box kick plan in the middle of the pitch and pressuring the breakdown. It was incredibly effective and we stuck to it even when it looked tempting to play loose, which is in the past has been a recipe for conceding a try BP by half time. That's the pragmatism JVG informed was the priority for the season and it's slowly, even which a lengthy injury list is falling into place. The next stage of Bath's evolution is to develop some structure for when the approach play has worked. One out runners in the 22 is not going to cut it against the best sides.
Quote:WoodpeckerQuote:Clarkey3kQuote:Woodpecker
Hmm
Time for your first pint now woodpecker...
There’s still time!
On your 3rd yet?
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Van Graan confirmed in the post-match that it's Stuart's knee and it's "pretty serious". I'd think that's another ACL.
We should've won that. How wrong I was. Can't remember the last time I felt gutted at losing.
Lawrence, Annett, Gallagher, Attwood...all great signings. But for the Roux brain fart, Ojomoh wrong call and Schroeder (very minimal) knock-on, we'd have won that.
Gutted re: Stuart but finally an 80 mins performance and at Sarries of all places...if we can do it there we can do it anywhere!
We should've won that. How wrong I was. Can't remember the last time I felt gutted at losing.
Lawrence, Annett, Gallagher, Attwood...all great signings. But for the Roux brain fart, Ojomoh wrong call and Schroeder (very minimal) knock-on, we'd have won that.
Gutted re: Stuart but finally an 80 mins performance and at Sarries of all places...if we can do it there we can do it anywhere!
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:WoodpeckerQuote:Clarkey3kQuote:Woodpecker
Hmm
Time for your first pint now woodpecker...
There’s still time!
On your 3rd yet?
Still first but I popped into Deya brewery no cost of living crisis thee it’s crazy
Well done Bath finally the corner is turned despite a narrow loss
The Stewart injury does take the shine off the positives. Would be nice to not feel that a close loss was a good result though.
Our fortunes won’t change until our injury luck changes and there’s nothing the club can do but hope things get better.
Is there any other club in the PL with our level of serious injuries?
Our fortunes won’t change until our injury luck changes and there’s nothing the club can do but hope things get better.
Is there any other club in the PL with our level of serious injuries?
A really good performance by Bath, very pleased with that. Things seem to be coming together and hopefully it won’t be long before we start winning!
Well certainly wasn't expecting that scoreline, espcially after they put 50 on Tigers in their last outing at home.
Why am I not surprused that a plastic pitch does another serious knee injury - they should be banned at the top level, though are a great training concept.
Haven't seen any of the game so can't comment on the missed opportunities, but clearly there are improvements being made, and I can't remember us coming close away to Sarries for a very long rime. Bet the players are gutted not to have won that one.
Why am I not surprused that a plastic pitch does another serious knee injury - they should be banned at the top level, though are a great training concept.
Haven't seen any of the game so can't comment on the missed opportunities, but clearly there are improvements being made, and I can't remember us coming close away to Sarries for a very long rime. Bet the players are gutted not to have won that one.
Sarries fan in peace, sat with some Bath fans at the game and it was brilliant, had a great laugh and got a bit tipsy. If you guys continue to play like you did today you shouldn't have a problem moving up the table.
Quote:OldMarovian
espn stats have Lawrence with 2 assists, 254M and 11 defenders beaten
Seems Ollie is our new Nathan Hughes
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Went to this fixture last season and came home thoroughly depressed, so much so that despite the encouraging signs last weekend I only decided this morning to go to the stoneX again.
But what a transformation. We competed throughout, and made sarries look a bit ordinary.
Ollie Lawrence was, as many have said, superb. He terrorised sarries all afternoon and was MOTM by a country mile. Line out worked much better this week, and the scrum was solid, even after Will Stuart went off (he was on crutches, with an ice pack on his knee, afterwards btw). Special mention for cam redpath who was good in attack and a real nuisance in defence, winning at least a couple of turnovers.
some aspects to work on though. The box kicking worked ok but kicks were often too long, or too short. We missed Ben Spencer here. And the midfield defence I thought could have been better for a couple of sarries tries, though I did see an improvement over recent weeks.
But a real sense that we have turned a corner, and rarely have I felt so positive after a loss. Really looking forward to saints next weekend.
But what a transformation. We competed throughout, and made sarries look a bit ordinary.
Ollie Lawrence was, as many have said, superb. He terrorised sarries all afternoon and was MOTM by a country mile. Line out worked much better this week, and the scrum was solid, even after Will Stuart went off (he was on crutches, with an ice pack on his knee, afterwards btw). Special mention for cam redpath who was good in attack and a real nuisance in defence, winning at least a couple of turnovers.
some aspects to work on though. The box kicking worked ok but kicks were often too long, or too short. We missed Ben Spencer here. And the midfield defence I thought could have been better for a couple of sarries tries, though I did see an improvement over recent weeks.
But a real sense that we have turned a corner, and rarely have I felt so positive after a loss. Really looking forward to saints next weekend.
Things are really coming together which is great to see. However we continually to lose players to serious injuries every match. It’s only because of the sad demise of Worcester that we are still able to put out a decent team. I can’t see how we can go on like this. What is the solution?
.
.
Well I didn't expect that.... Ollie Lawrence was definitely the MOM and we were fortunate to keep you out at the death.
Just an observation that your service from the base of a breakdown was not the fastest, if this was speeded up I hate to think the damage your backs could do.
Good luck for the rest of the season.
SUPPORT Help for Heroes:
Help for Heroes
Just an observation that your service from the base of a breakdown was not the fastest, if this was speeded up I hate to think the damage your backs could do.
Good luck for the rest of the season.
SUPPORT Help for Heroes:
Help for Heroes
Wow when Sarries pulled ahead by 20 after that shocking start to the 2nd half we all thought here we go but it was Bath who roared back into the game. We should have won and the cheer at the head for the home fans was as if they had won the league because they thought they were going to lose.
We just lacked that bit of composure that top teams have to take their chances but that will come. Listening to the TMO i was sure Rae was seeing red and thankfully a yellow was the right call especially after losing Stuart to a potential long term injury or we would have been struggling at TH over the next few games.
If Stuart has done serious damage to his knee then it was probably that his studs were caught in that bloody artificial pitch when he got smashed by a great tackle. Premier rugby should ban them all ad there is a reason why there is no artificial pitches in the premier league because they wreck joints. In cup games top premier football players who have previous injuries are not allowed to play as voids the players insurance.
Saracens did what they needed to do but their fans have expressed how well they thought Bath played and it was not down to Sarries having a bad day.
We just lacked that bit of composure that top teams have to take their chances but that will come. Listening to the TMO i was sure Rae was seeing red and thankfully a yellow was the right call especially after losing Stuart to a potential long term injury or we would have been struggling at TH over the next few games.
If Stuart has done serious damage to his knee then it was probably that his studs were caught in that bloody artificial pitch when he got smashed by a great tackle. Premier rugby should ban them all ad there is a reason why there is no artificial pitches in the premier league because they wreck joints. In cup games top premier football players who have previous injuries are not allowed to play as voids the players insurance.
Saracens did what they needed to do but their fans have expressed how well they thought Bath played and it was not down to Sarries having a bad day.
Lawrence was just immense and made Sarries experienced heads look nervous. I can see what JvG case in him.
It was a much better performance, though i'd prefer the opposition weren't putting up 30-40 points most games.
I agree that our service could be quicker and that our attack in general could be a bit more diverse (I guess Lawrence might miss a game) but green shoots are there...
It was a much better performance, though i'd prefer the opposition weren't putting up 30-40 points most games.
I agree that our service could be quicker and that our attack in general could be a bit more diverse (I guess Lawrence might miss a game) but green shoots are there...
Just watched the game. Forget the result, that was even more vastly encouraging than last week's game. Salaries away and I'm left bitterly disappointed that we didn't win. Minute 1-40 we competed well, we looked like we knew what we were trying to do and we played as a team. It was dull but effective - Salariesesque even. Minute 40-60 a return to the headless shambles we've been watching for entirely too long and which really just gave Salaries the match. Minute 60-80 back to focus, control and intent. With just a slightly more generous bit of reffing, we would have won. Yes, Salaries were not at either their best or full strength but, if we play like that for the rest of the season, we won't finish bottom.
I know I'm repeating myself but my man of the match on any other day would have been Joe Cokanasiga and if he's going to perform like that from now on, he'll be man of the match more often than not. However...
My MOTM - Ollie Lawrence. Everything that was good about us and basically unplayable. I'm glad we've been able to keep him. But, I fear that Eddie is going to take him away and probably break him.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:16:04:51:20 by joethefanatic.
I know I'm repeating myself but my man of the match on any other day would have been Joe Cokanasiga and if he's going to perform like that from now on, he'll be man of the match more often than not. However...
My MOTM - Ollie Lawrence. Everything that was good about us and basically unplayable. I'm glad we've been able to keep him. But, I fear that Eddie is going to take him away and probably break him.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:16:04:51:20 by joethefanatic.
It makes the re-signing of JJ so puzzling. Regrettably he has offered so little for so long by comparison with so many other centres, particularly Lawrence yesterday. We cannot depend on one player, however, for reasons mentioned above so let’s see more of that incisive attacking throughout the team starting next weekend.
Hopefully a performance and style that shows the kind of balance we should be playing with.
Jvg seems a forward/set piece/physicality focused coach with jpf on defence. That is where we need to improve hugely and there are green shoots.
Pragmatically though next week can hopefully name a backline of spencer, bailey, coko, redpath, lawrence, rmc, gallagher.
With sooooo many forwards out that in reality is where our strength currently lies and would be mad not to use them a fair bit. Combine that with solid set piece, good basics like restarts and strong maul then happy days.
From listening to the game on radio and seeing highlights larwences performance was sublime. Shaping up to be an excellent bit of business- share your concerns Joe that it's England call up form.
Hopefully ted hill watched and thought we aren't a basket case after all.
Sounded like backrow went well along with redpath , Gallagher and coko in particular.
Desperately important we back it up and finally get that win next week against saints.
Stuart will be a huge loss. We just can't get a break with injuries- that is a nearly 10 serious injuries already this season , plus have about 10 others out.
Jvg seems a forward/set piece/physicality focused coach with jpf on defence. That is where we need to improve hugely and there are green shoots.
Pragmatically though next week can hopefully name a backline of spencer, bailey, coko, redpath, lawrence, rmc, gallagher.
With sooooo many forwards out that in reality is where our strength currently lies and would be mad not to use them a fair bit. Combine that with solid set piece, good basics like restarts and strong maul then happy days.
From listening to the game on radio and seeing highlights larwences performance was sublime. Shaping up to be an excellent bit of business- share your concerns Joe that it's England call up form.
Hopefully ted hill watched and thought we aren't a basket case after all.
Sounded like backrow went well along with redpath , Gallagher and coko in particular.
Desperately important we back it up and finally get that win next week against saints.
Stuart will be a huge loss. We just can't get a break with injuries- that is a nearly 10 serious injuries already this season , plus have about 10 others out.
Quote:BiggusDickus
Saracens did what they needed to do but their fans have expressed how well they thought Bath played and it was not down to Sarries having a bad day.
We definitely had a very bad day with a silly amount of skill and thought errors. Ofc a huge part of that was how well Bath played. The passion and commitment not to mention a couple of Bath players really standing out even in a great team performance was great to see.
Ironically I think the mental attitude (something Bath have occasionally struggled with this season) was almost as big an issue as the poor play. All the talk (press and some supporters) before the game was what a walloping this would be and how easy it would be and I think the Sarries attitude was complacent. As McCall said there was no urgency to resource breakdowns, run support etc It was a bit like the players expected the result without expecting to put the work in which is criminal for a team with as much experience as we had.
I also think our game plan was truly idiotic. Quite why we decided to play without the ball so much against a team who this season have at times struggled in defence and we had a team of both big carriers and skilled backs is a genuine mystery to me as is our kicking to your backs with no kick chase to allow you to launch a counter-attack?
That said it really was Baths day IMO and a win for you was the result that game deserved. A Sarries supporter online said the better team lost and yesterday in that I think he was spot on.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:16:09:34:29 by OldMarovian.
Kind words Old Marovian and the league and English rugby need a strong Bath and we look like we are starting to move in the right direction.
Unfortunately our injury situation has been horrendous already this season and I never thought it could be as bad as last year!!
What has happened with Worcester and Wasps is very concerning but in reality it is of their own making as both clubs were financially mismanaged and in debt to their eyeballs even before COVID. Wasps gambled and failed and remember all the galacticos signings they had made and I was always thought how much are they costing.
Obviously we have benefited but the most important thing is that the players we took are playing and that will benefit England because the way Lawrence has been playing he will be involved as he was so good going forward.
Controversial but true and I know we are very fortunate to have Bruce and sponsors like Dyson but things have to change and two strong leagues of 10 with promotion and relegation
Unfortunately our injury situation has been horrendous already this season and I never thought it could be as bad as last year!!
What has happened with Worcester and Wasps is very concerning but in reality it is of their own making as both clubs were financially mismanaged and in debt to their eyeballs even before COVID. Wasps gambled and failed and remember all the galacticos signings they had made and I was always thought how much are they costing.
Obviously we have benefited but the most important thing is that the players we took are playing and that will benefit England because the way Lawrence has been playing he will be involved as he was so good going forward.
Controversial but true and I know we are very fortunate to have Bruce and sponsors like Dyson but things have to change and two strong leagues of 10 with promotion and relegation
Quote:Bath Hammer
Delighted with that performance. I never expected us to stay in the game. How wrong I was. Surely we can secure a win soon.
Northampton on Saturday.
Mark my words.
J
Northampton on Saturday, indeed. They’ve a few injuries and don’t appear quite to be firing on all cylinders. Maybe we’ll have Spencer and one or two others back.
Either way, and not sure why, but to me it feels a little bit like a cup final. Let’s get the Rec rocking!
Either way, and not sure why, but to me it feels a little bit like a cup final. Let’s get the Rec rocking!
Bristol in the PRC on Wednesday night b4 Saints mind...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Unfortunately for Bath - but great for him - I think that Lawrence has probably played his way into the Autumn Internationals squad announced at 10:30am today.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53
Unfortunately for Bath - but great for him - I think that Lawrence has probably played his way into the Autumn Internationals squad announced at 10:30am today.
Yes it’s really frustrating when a player gets picked to spend weeks sitting in the stand instead of playing for their club.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53
Unfortunately for Bath - but great for him - I think that Lawrence has probably played his way into the Autumn Internationals squad announced at 10:30am today.
Yes it’s really frustrating when a player gets picked to spend weeks sitting in the stand instead of playing for their club.
It's an absolute godsend for Eddie Jones. Means he can actually build a game-plan around Tuilagi, whilst having a reasonable like-for-like replacement, rather than having to reconfigure the entire backline and game-plan. when the hammie twangs.
Faz back to 10 for AIs, which, frankly, suits Eddie and England a whole lot better.
It'll be interesting to see whether Lawrence gets the nod, as he's been tried, poorly used and then dismissed by EJ before. Will 2 good games change that opinion? I'd be surprised, especially with the likes of Northmore, Porter, Dingwall having been more consistent performers.
Agree that Lawrence is potentially the closest match to Manu's capabilities, so it will depend on what EJ wants, which largely stems from if he wants to continue with 10 Smith 12 Farrell. A year out from a WC, I suspect he might simplify, with Faz back to 10 and Manu and Slade back in the centres.
But who on earth knows? Madness to try and mindread the man.
Agree that Lawrence is potentially the closest match to Manu's capabilities, so it will depend on what EJ wants, which largely stems from if he wants to continue with 10 Smith 12 Farrell. A year out from a WC, I suspect he might simplify, with Faz back to 10 and Manu and Slade back in the centres.
But who on earth knows? Madness to try and mindread the man.
Quote:OptimistQuote:OutsideBathQuote:BathMatt53
Unfortunately for Bath - but great for him - I think that Lawrence has probably played his way into the Autumn Internationals squad announced at 10:30am today.
Yes it’s really frustrating when a player gets picked to spend weeks sitting in the stand instead of playing for their club.
It's an absolute godsend for Eddie Jones. Means he can actually build a game-plan around Tuilagi, whilst having a reasonable like-for-like replacement, rather than having to reconfigure the entire backline and game-plan. when the hammie twangs.
Faz back to 10 for AIs, which, frankly, suits Eddie and England a whole lot better.
If Jones actually picked on form Manu wouldn’t be involved and Lawrence would be. Instead Lawrence will be kicking his heals in the stands and Manu will be picked.
I wouldn't be surprised if Eddie likes the look of a faz/manu/ollie midfield with Smith on the bench.
Quote:Indeed, an eye catching and (importantly for Bath) inspirational performance by Lawrence though will Eddie prefer to have his centres chasing aimless kicks rather than sprinting down the touchline, handing off defences and holding the ball in the palm of his hand, creating tries?dr.bath1865
But who on earth knows? Madness to try and mindread the man.
Too flash for him these days!
Whilst Manu is high risk in a tournament situation, if he picks Lawrence, I hope makes it clear that Lawrence is there fully on merit and not because of Manu's hamstrings.
Lawrence not in Autumn International squad at all, as said above better than bench warming and gives him an opportunity to seal a starting spot for the 6N if anything happens to Manu T.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
If I were Eddie, I'd have Manu pencilled in purely as a sub. Of course, you want him in the squad if he's had a run of fitness - he's close to being the biggest game-changer in world rugby. It's just incredibly stupid to build your team around him when he is so fragile. And talk about 'impact' sub. Maybe that gives Lawrence an opening to start, with Faz/Slade. With Smith and Tuilagi on the bench, and Farrell already on the pitch, you have some proper, proper tactical, game-changing, game-closing options.
Quote:Optimist
If I were Eddie, I'd have Manu pencilled in purely as a sub. Of course, you want him in the squad if he's had a run of fitness - he's close to being the biggest game-changer in world rugby.
Is he really that good? I honestly can't remember the last time he did anything close to that level but that could easily be my old, foggy brain
Quote:gaz59
I honestly can't remember the last time he did anything close to that level
Sat 1 Dec 2012
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
26 October 2019.
But it's not just what he does, but the way he makes England's midfield make sense.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:17:12:02:48 by Optimist.
But it's not just what he does, but the way he makes England's midfield make sense.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:17:12:02:48 by Optimist.
Quote:Optimist
26 October 2019.
But it's not just what he does, but the way he makes England's midfield make sense.
Now I remember, but three years ago, hmm?
I'm a Sarries supporter, but am happy to see other sides and the supporters comments on them. In that spirit, I would say that to me, an outsider it was obvious that Bath's problems were not the players, but the coaching of them. JVG took over a rapidly sinking ship, where the coaches were failing a very talented group of players, almost all of who deserved better than the coaching that was on offer. In the last couple of seasons, it wasn't about how much the squad cost, it was about how much the resources were being used.
JVG couldn't possibly turn things around overnight, it was bound to take time to restore some sense of purpose and confidence. The result is that many of the Bath squad are playing better than they have done for a couple of seasons, working to a game plan that reflects what resources JVG has available around which to make that plan. Better planning yields better preparation, and better preparation yields better performance. Better performance yields more chance of international recognition, and that leads players to want to stay, because international appearances start adding up to proper money.
You'll know when all is well at the Rec. when other supporters start alleging that they know for a fact that it's all down to how the Bath money men are gaming the salary cap.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
JVG couldn't possibly turn things around overnight, it was bound to take time to restore some sense of purpose and confidence. The result is that many of the Bath squad are playing better than they have done for a couple of seasons, working to a game plan that reflects what resources JVG has available around which to make that plan. Better planning yields better preparation, and better preparation yields better performance. Better performance yields more chance of international recognition, and that leads players to want to stay, because international appearances start adding up to proper money.
You'll know when all is well at the Rec. when other supporters start alleging that they know for a fact that it's all down to how the Bath money men are gaming the salary cap.
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Hard to disagree with that view Innings.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53
Hard to disagree with that view Innings.
Interesting though, that just as last season's run of 'form' (all things are relative) coincided almost entirely with the arrival of Nathan Hughes, whilst this season Ollie Lawrence has done much to spark them into life.
I don't disagree, either, with Innings summation - but also ... 'lucky vs smart generals' and all that.
Quote:Optimist
Interesting though, that just as last season's run of 'form' (all things are relative) coincided almost entirely with the arrival of Nathan Hughes, whilst this season Ollie Lawrence has done much to spark them into life.
This is true, and what both Hughes and Lawrence bring (from their different positions on the pitch) is 'go forward'. So much easier to play off a carrier to breaks the gain line almost every time and those two are up there with the best, in addition to their other skills of course. As we have discussed many times on here, Bath generally lack fit gain line breakers.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Agree innings.
I think I personally coming at it from being savvy and planning well rather than 'gaming' (like bath going from 2 to 1 marquee at least 1 season before many others is naive) but you make many good points and congrats on your win at the weekend.
I think I personally coming at it from being savvy and planning well rather than 'gaming' (like bath going from 2 to 1 marquee at least 1 season before many others is naive) but you make many good points and congrats on your win at the weekend.
Quote:BathMatt53
Hard to disagree with that view Innings.
I still think our defence is concerning and for me that's down to the defence coach not doing his job well enough. We won't win any games until our defence improves, conceding 30+ pts a game gifts our opponents the win.
I agree on the defence issue, the fact that Lawrence has not been recalled to the England squad yet gives the midfield more time to gel. Sarries 1st try shows there is still some work to do.
Ollie not being in the England AI squad is the best piece of news we've had in years.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Ojomoh looked dangerous when he came on, looked like he had been in the gym as well. Going to have to find a way to fit him, OL and Redpath all into the same team.
Quote:Brilliant, that's the sort of problem coaches love. If Lawrence provides a challenge that inspires JJ then great too.by
Ojomoh looked dangerous when he came on, looked like he had been in the gym as well. Going to have to find a way to fit him, OL and Redpath all into the same team.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Bath News 24/7
More Bath headlines
- LEARNINGS FOR NEXT SEASON. SEASON REVIEW CONTINUED.
- World Rugby Junior World Championship 2026 Preview
- FAILURE, FRUSTRATION OR FLATLINE? 2026 SEASON REVIEW
- "IT'S IN OUR HANDS”...BATH V EXETER.
- NOW OR NEVER: BATH V LEICESTER
- BOUNCEBACKABILITY: EXETER CHIEFS V BATH RUGBY
- LE HANDICAP? BORDEAUX v BATH ECC SEMI FINAL
- “MAY YOUR CHOICES REFLECT YOUR HOPES NOT YOUR FEARS”.
- EYES BACK ON THE OTHER PRIZE! BATH v HARLEQUINS
Bath latest threads
- O/T Postcards from the Past No 4 – Naples 2010
- Injury latest on forgotten Bath Rugby wrecking ball Jaco Coetzee
- OT / Prostate
- OT - Fox wins the Open at Birkdale
- O/T Postcards from the Past No 3 Théoule-sur-Mer – May 2017
- OT/ Site advertising
- Will Roue Signed ahead of the 2026/27 season
- Bath Rugby's confirmed 2026/27 incoming signings and outgoings
- 2026/27 PREM Rugby Cup fixtures confirmed
- O/T Postcards from the Past No2 Cordoba 2015