Bath
DANGEROUS WATERS. BATH v SALE
Joe C. Shark killer?
By PG Tips
March 22 2022
Bath will find themselves in dangerous waters at the Rec on Saturday. For most of this season they have been sinking inexorably and painfully, the heaving waves of defeat, contagion and injury threatening to engulf them. A few hard- won victories have brought some respite recently, but now the Sharks are circling and looking very dangerous beasts indeed. They will be expecting to devour their hosts as they have several recent Premiership opponents. Can Bath somehow steer a passage through the shoal and emerge with a victory?
After last season Sale will find their 7th place status disappointing, which should make them all the more daunting with 6 rounds to go and the Playoff positions in reach. As can be expected of a squad built by Diamond and Sanderson they are built on solid foundations and obsession with the basics. Unsurprisingly with so many South Africans in their ranks they are strong up front - where Bath have been well below par for most of 3 seasons- and smothering in defence (the most glaring of many Bath weaknesses for next year’s coaching team to address).
Bath can expect to face a pack built around Rodd, Oosthuizen, a duplication (or even triplication) of Du Preez’s, B Curry and the evergreen Ross. Behind them the steady McGinty and direct drives from van Rensburg and yet another Du Preez will aim to put them on the front foot, deep in opposition territory. The plan is muscular, simple and frequently unsubtle. That does not make it easy to stop and just when it seems predictable and containable up pops the firecracker De Klerk to spring a surprise. After a mixed start to the season Sharks are refinding their bite. In 7 recent matches they have collected 5 try bonus points. They will be scenting blood.
Bath must cope with conflicting feelings as they prepare. There will be concerns about slim resources up front, especially at lock, but growing confidence from 4 wins since Christmas. The return of Faletau and Underhill against Bristol should strengthen the pack in the loose - hopefully both are recovered sufficiently from their efforts in recent 6 Nations matches to play a full part. Danny Cipriani looks likely to start at fly half after Orlando Bailey was handed the captaincy last weekend. Elsewhere in the backs I expect Joseph to take the outside centre spot and a back 3 of Rokodoguni, Cokanasiga and De Glanville, all of whom can threaten to snare the sharks if pack and half backs can give them enough ball and space.
Beyond this weekend the waters are no less threatening. Even without relegation, Bath will want to avoid the indignity of a bottom place finish, which they have never suffered since league rugby began – not even in the woeful 2002 & 2003 seasons. Including this one there are 6 rounds remaining, perhaps as many as 4 or 5 of them possibly winnable. Nearest rivals Newcastle and Worcester can be overhauled if Bath can pick up 4, possibly even 3 wins. The entire squad need to find the way and the inner reserves to secure those wins, to avoid the label of the worst Bath team of the modern era.
After their last two encounters with Sale, Bath will feel they are owed a spot of luck. In the season opener a last- ditch penalty attempt just failed to secure the win, while in the 2021 Rec encounter a De Klerk trip on Redpath went unnoticed, ultimately leading to the Sale try that tipped the score in their favour. Luck though is not enough in deep water surrounded by man eaters. Desperation can do wonders. Bath should seek the sheer bloody-minded determination of the 2003 squad against London Irish and Newcastle and treat this match as a fight for survival.
Possible Teams:
Bath:, Morozov, Du Toit, Rae, Richards, Spencer, Bayliss, Underhill, Faletau. B Spencer Cipriani. Rokodoguni, Ojomoh, Joseph, Cokanasiga, De Glanville.
Replacements: Doughty, Boyce, Fia, Williams, Coetzee. Simpson, Bailey, Clark.
Sale Sharks: Rodd, Ashman, Oosthuizen, JL du Preez, J Du Preez, Ross, B Curry, D du Preez. De Klerk, McGinty. Reed, V Rensburg, R du Preez, Roebuck. L James.
Replacements: Landon, McIntyre, Jones, Postlethwaite, Taylor. Warr, Hill, Metcalf.
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StumbleuponDANGEROUS WATERS. BATH v SALE. Team's Up!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 22/03/2022 16:46
22/03/2022 16:46
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:28:18:03:14 by CoochieCoo.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:28:18:03:14 by CoochieCoo.
Crikey PG, after reading the first paragraph I just kept thinking, "We are going to need a bigger boat" and aspiring to be Roy Schneider as opposed to Robert Shaw!
It depends on what happens up front of course but I do just wonder if Coetzee might swap with Faletau who looked exhausted after the Wales Italy game.
Has Nathan Hughes now gone back to Bristol?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
It depends on what happens up front of course but I do just wonder if Coetzee might swap with Faletau who looked exhausted after the Wales Italy game.
Has Nathan Hughes now gone back to Bristol?
Sale have lost or drawn all bar two of their away matches this season if this is of any comfort. I’m not sure where the 7 consecutive wins comes from as Sale haven’t achieved that this season, they lost to Exeter just 2 rounds ago.
Good point dcsh - somehow I missed that on Gallagher Prem website.
Hughes may of course be available, but in absence of confirmation I feared he had been recalled to Briz!
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:22:18:16:35 by P G Tips.
Hughes may of course be available, but in absence of confirmation I feared he had been recalled to Briz!
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:22:18:16:35 by P G Tips.
Quote:dcsh
Sale have lost or drawn all bar two of their away matches this season if this is of any comfort. I’m not sure where the 7 consecutive wins comes from as Sale haven’t achieved that this season, they lost to Exeter just 2 rounds ago.
Edited.
Hope it now makes more sense!
Away record does though offer hope.
PG
Quote:Good work PG. We live in hope.P G TipsQuote:dcsh
Sale have lost or drawn all bar two of their away matches this season if this is of any comfort. I’m not sure where the 7 consecutive wins comes from as Sale haven’t achieved that this season, they lost to Exeter just 2 rounds ago.
Edited.
Hope it now makes more sense!
Away record does though offer hope.
PG
Quote:It looked like Hughes was at Fairleigh House earlier this week on social media so possibly not?gaz59
The report said that Hughes was recalled with immediate effect I believe
Quote:RokobillyQuote:It looked like Hughes was at Fairleigh House earlier this week on social media so possibly not?gaz59
The report said that Hughes was recalled with immediate effect I believe
Interesting, he is not predicted to play for Bristol's game v Saracens.
Quote:hasta
I think he's still on loan until end April.
Great to hear. A couple of wins would be so good for morale going into pre-season with new coaching team and no doubt that Hughes gives us a far better chance of that
Looking at social media today, Hughes definitely still with us and should be in the mix this week for selection.
So what was the immediate recall all about then? 
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
If available and fit NH should be amongst the first names on the team sheet.
team's Up. Stuart & Underrhil return.Ben Spencer Capt.
Four returning internationals feature in Bath Rugby’s starting XV for the visit of Sale Sharks in the Gallagher Premiership.
Will Stuart and Sam Underhill started for England in the final round of the Six Nations while Josh Bayliss came off the bench for Scotland. Academy lock Ewan Richards earned another cap for England Under-20s too. All four are named in the pack.
Will Spencer earns his second league start of the season with Jacques du Toit also coming back into a Premiership starting role at hooker. Nathan Hughes completes the pack after missing the Round 19 game against Bristol Bears as part of his loan agreement.
There is only one change in the backs to the seven that began the win over Bristol Bears at the beginning of March.
Wing Will Muir comes back into the back three alongside homegrown duo Will Butt and Tom de Glanville.
Max Clark and Jonathan Joseph continue in the midfield while Ben Spencer, who will captain the side, partners Danny Cipriani at half-back.
On the bench, Harry Casson could make his Premiership debut after joining on a short-term deal ahead of the Premiership Rugby Cup fixture against Bristol last weekend.
Bath Rugby side to play Sale Sharks
15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Will Butt, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Will Muir, 10 Danny Cipriani, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Arthur Cordwell, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Will Spencer, 5 Ewan Richards, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Nathan Hughes
Replacements
16 Tom Doughty, 17 Will Vaughan, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Richard de Carpentier, 20 Harry Casson, 21 Joe Simpson, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Joe Cokanasiga
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Four returning internationals feature in Bath Rugby’s starting XV for the visit of Sale Sharks in the Gallagher Premiership.
Will Stuart and Sam Underhill started for England in the final round of the Six Nations while Josh Bayliss came off the bench for Scotland. Academy lock Ewan Richards earned another cap for England Under-20s too. All four are named in the pack.
Will Spencer earns his second league start of the season with Jacques du Toit also coming back into a Premiership starting role at hooker. Nathan Hughes completes the pack after missing the Round 19 game against Bristol Bears as part of his loan agreement.
There is only one change in the backs to the seven that began the win over Bristol Bears at the beginning of March.
Wing Will Muir comes back into the back three alongside homegrown duo Will Butt and Tom de Glanville.
Max Clark and Jonathan Joseph continue in the midfield while Ben Spencer, who will captain the side, partners Danny Cipriani at half-back.
On the bench, Harry Casson could make his Premiership debut after joining on a short-term deal ahead of the Premiership Rugby Cup fixture against Bristol last weekend.
Bath Rugby side to play Sale Sharks
15 Tom de Glanville, 14 Will Butt, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Will Muir, 10 Danny Cipriani, 9 Ben Spencer ©; 1 Arthur Cordwell, 2 Jacques du Toit, 3 Will Stuart, 4 Will Spencer, 5 Ewan Richards, 6 Josh Bayliss, 7 Sam Underhill, 8 Nathan Hughes
Replacements
16 Tom Doughty, 17 Will Vaughan, 18 D’Arcy Rae, 19 Richard de Carpentier, 20 Harry Casson, 21 Joe Simpson, 22 Orlando Bailey, 23 Joe Cokanasiga
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quote:dcsh
No Faletau, presumably he is being rested post Wales duty.
Probably getting therapy from Katie Wariner after the Wales defeat!
Back to relying on our 5th and 6th choice looseheads.
Looks OK apart from that.
Looks OK apart from that.
Quote:P G Tips
TBF Taulupe looked exhausted at the end of that match!
PG
Agree PG, in the Scrum V analysis it highlighted the Welsh failure to share the kick chase that led to the last minute try, normally he would have had the about 15 m in form the 5m line but actually had double that to cover because there was no-one inside him. The implication was that that was typical during the game, hence Biggar's rant.
Is Mojo injured or just rested? Thought he would be starting. Good that we are starting to get more options available though!
Mojo played the full game against Bris in the Prem Cup. Given Clark is off (even if he's playing reasonably well) I'm surprised Mojo not there.
THE OPPOSITION
15 Luke James, 14 Tom Roebuck, 13 Sam James, 12 Rohan Janse van Rensburg, 11 Arron Reed, 10 Rob du Preez, 9 Faf de Klerk; 1 Bevan Rodd, 2 Ewan Ashman, 3 Coenie Oosthuizen, 4 Jean-Luc du Preez, 5 Lood de Jager, 6 Jono Ross (c), 7 Ben Curry, 8 Dan du Preez
REPLACEMENTS
16 Curtis Langdon, 17 Simon McIntyre, 18 Joe Jones, 19 JP du Preez, 20 Cobus Wiese, 21 Gus Warr, 22 Tom Curtis, 23 Jack Metcalf
15 Luke James, 14 Tom Roebuck, 13 Sam James, 12 Rohan Janse van Rensburg, 11 Arron Reed, 10 Rob du Preez, 9 Faf de Klerk; 1 Bevan Rodd, 2 Ewan Ashman, 3 Coenie Oosthuizen, 4 Jean-Luc du Preez, 5 Lood de Jager, 6 Jono Ross (c), 7 Ben Curry, 8 Dan du Preez
REPLACEMENTS
16 Curtis Langdon, 17 Simon McIntyre, 18 Joe Jones, 19 JP du Preez, 20 Cobus Wiese, 21 Gus Warr, 22 Tom Curtis, 23 Jack Metcalf
How many 'foreigners' are allowed in a team. I count 8 Saffers in the starters and 2 on the bench (and those are just the ones with SA names + Jono Ross). It is getting ridiculous and doesn't bode well for an England team in the future
Someone really does like Butt on the wing!
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Quote:copester
Someone really does like Butt on the wing!
Although I don't think he has the pace for a winger, he's been playing well there.
Take it Jaco Coetzee is injured again? Much weaker team than I anticipated and given how strong that Sale pack is I fear for our set piece and TBF right across their entire team - My heart says we pinch it by a point or two - unfortunately my head says this could be another very heavy and painful home defeat.
Again persisting with playing Butt out of position and Joe C on the bench????? - his weakness is being turned and facing real pace - against 2 really quick and skilful players in Roebuck and Reed. I would understand it if they had a monster winger such as Nadolo against him but I take it Joe C not ready for a full game so why not give someone like Atkins, Prydie or Harmer-Webb a run out - I personally want to see Butt in the centres not the wing.
Sanderson must be licking his lips expecting a bonus point win and a hatful of points to help their points difference.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:25:14:53:11 by Ali1969.
Again persisting with playing Butt out of position and Joe C on the bench????? - his weakness is being turned and facing real pace - against 2 really quick and skilful players in Roebuck and Reed. I would understand it if they had a monster winger such as Nadolo against him but I take it Joe C not ready for a full game so why not give someone like Atkins, Prydie or Harmer-Webb a run out - I personally want to see Butt in the centres not the wing.
Sanderson must be licking his lips expecting a bonus point win and a hatful of points to help their points difference.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:25:14:53:11 by Ali1969.
I see Joe C has been identified by the RFU as one of the players who will come back in and make a difference. For someone who has yet to make a difference against Tier 1 opposition even pre-injury they really are in cloud cuckoo land. Glad that we are managing his return.
Quote:hemington
How many 'foreigners' are allowed in a team. I count 8 Saffers in the starters and 2 on the bench (and those are just the ones with SA names + Jono Ross). It is getting ridiculous and doesn't bode well for an England team in the future
And the remaining 13 players are all ex-academy.
Anyone have any experience of our ref for Sat. Hamish Smales is not a name I am familiar with.
duplicate post
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:25:15:20:09 by BathMatt53.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:25:15:20:09 by BathMatt53.
Quote:TG Kesmo
Anyone have any experience of our ref for Sat. Hamish Smales is not a name I am familiar with.
You will recognise him. He's been around for ages.
[www.gscgrays.co.uk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Another boring gripe from me but why can't we have an 'unavailable for selection ' list every week rather than sometimes (with no obvious logic as to when it gets produced).
It doesn't have to give any details, it just answers questions like for me this week I have no idea if morozov, williams, coetzee, mojo, ghw etc were available or not.
It doesn't have to give any details, it just answers questions like for me this week I have no idea if morozov, williams, coetzee, mojo, ghw etc were available or not.
Quote:https://all.rugby/player/will-buttcopester
Someone really does like Butt on the wing!
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:Apologies. Joined Sale 6 yrs ago aged 18Optimist
Langdon was LI Academy
Quote:Well, we are steadily building quite a contingent of our own SAers to be fair.hemington
How many 'foreigners' are allowed in a team. I count 8 Saffers in the starters and 2 on the bench (and those are just the ones with SA names + Jono Ross). It is getting ridiculous and doesn't bode well for an England team in the future
Quote:RawceQuote:Well, we are steadily building quite a contingent of our own SAers to be fair.hemington
How many 'foreigners' are allowed in a team. I count 8 Saffers in the starters and 2 on the bench (and those are just the ones with SA names + Jono Ross). It is getting ridiculous and doesn't bode well for an England team in the future
Along with Sale, Saracens, Gloucester etc......
Will any of those positions affect the future England team's abilities?
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:RawceQuote:Well, we are steadily building quite a contingent of our own SAers to be fair.hemington
How many 'foreigners' are allowed in a team. I count 8 Saffers in the starters and 2 on the bench (and those are just the ones with SA names + Jono Ross). It is getting ridiculous and doesn't bode well for an England team in the future
Along with Sale, Saracens, Gloucester etc......
Please get it right. We only have one born in South Africa now...Ruan Ackermann...and he's now England qualified. (Tigers have rather a lot...)
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:RawceQuote:Well, we are steadily building quite a contingent of our own SAers to be fair.hemington
How many 'foreigners' are allowed in a team. I count 8 Saffers in the starters and 2 on the bench (and those are just the ones with SA names + Jono Ross). It is getting ridiculous and doesn't bode well for an England team in the future
Along with Sale, Saracens, Gloucester etc......
Doesn’t matter if they help their club become successful.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:RawceQuote:Well, we are steadily building quite a contingent of our own SAers to be fair.hemington
How many 'foreigners' are allowed in a team. I count 8 Saffers in the starters and 2 on the bench (and those are just the ones with SA names + Jono Ross). It is getting ridiculous and doesn't bode well for an England team in the future
Along with Sale, Saracens, Gloucester etc......
We would have three but Sale nicked one of ours last season and Wasps are nicking another next season leaving us with a solitary SA player! Tbh we haven't had lots of SA players for half a decade plus now.
The system is the system and it's easy to get distracted by a lot of players coming from one Country (like with Sale) but if you want to look at a squad that is probably an example of what's wrong then London Irish is probably the poster child.
They're bringing through some great Academy talent and some of those listed on Wiki as Foreign are in fact EQP but even so comfortably 50% of the squad non-EQP.
Quote:OldMarovianQuote:shipwreckedQuote:RawceQuote:Well, we are steadily building quite a contingent of our own SAers to be fair.hemington
How many 'foreigners' are allowed in a team. I count 8 Saffers in the starters and 2 on the bench (and those are just the ones with SA names + Jono Ross). It is getting ridiculous and doesn't bode well for an England team in the future
Along with Sale, Saracens, Gloucester etc......
We would have three but Sale nicked one of ours last season and Wasps are nicking another next season leaving us with a solitary SA player!
Burger Odendaal the Lions SA centre who signed for Wasps was excellent tonight against Ospreys so perhaps swap Saracens for Wasps. Bit annoying as Bath were rumoured to have an interest at one point.
There are three main Prem clubs who, with an excellent eye for value for money, imported a bunch of Saffas (Sarries were admittedly the most brutal in the way they originally went about it). Sale are really the last one standing, and they're in the process of adjusting (as they need to with upcoming EQP regs).
Other than Sarries, it won none of them anything. But then, Bath consistently topping the number of EQPs hasn't done us any favours either.
Other than Sarries, it won none of them anything. But then, Bath consistently topping the number of EQPs hasn't done us any favours either.
That's a very good point re going "full" EQP hasta. The benefits to both Bath and England have perhaps not been quite what you'd expect in terms of talent coming through? promoted? although that said surely that is as much about the Academy intake at the time and it feels from the outside that you've got as good a batch of young players as you've had for a long time with some looking like definitely having International prospects.
As we always say its all about squad balance.
I like having lots of eqp, lots of academy grads etc....but you want a mix of future internationals, current internationals and guys just below that level.
Certain overseas signings add huge value to clubs. I think we haven't done fantastically there over recent times and our use of marquee has been poor.
Du preez brothers seem good examples (esp Dan and l) of non marquee- sometimes in boks wider squads but rarely do sale lose them for extended periods. Imagine they are on very good but not crazy money.
Steven luatua is always my favourite example of a great marquee signing. Given sooooo much to bris over a decent length of time.
From an eng perspective I think cap limitations will just mean even more young guys get a go in the prem. Has there ever been so many 19-21 year olds getting prem game time?
I like having lots of eqp, lots of academy grads etc....but you want a mix of future internationals, current internationals and guys just below that level.
Certain overseas signings add huge value to clubs. I think we haven't done fantastically there over recent times and our use of marquee has been poor.
Du preez brothers seem good examples (esp Dan and l) of non marquee- sometimes in boks wider squads but rarely do sale lose them for extended periods. Imagine they are on very good but not crazy money.
Steven luatua is always my favourite example of a great marquee signing. Given sooooo much to bris over a decent length of time.
From an eng perspective I think cap limitations will just mean even more young guys get a go in the prem. Has there ever been so many 19-21 year olds getting prem game time?
I don't believe Luatua would be a marquee though (not with Piutau and Radrada about).
Quote:hasta
I don't believe Luatua would be a marquee though (not with Piutau and Radrada about).
Arrived in 2017 aged about 26 whilst being a regular in the all blacks squad I think.
Rumour was >600k salary so definitely marquee at the time.
Long servant, consistently excellent, capt and leader- great use of marquee.
Whether he still is ... that is debatable as not sure what has happened to his salary since then. Piatua allegedly signed on 1m salary but no idea if true or remains the case.
Radrandra was rumoured to sign on c500k per year (which would be amazing value if he could stay fit).
Bris approach is interesting- handful of mega earners.
Yeah you can't imagine Sinckler and next year Genge will be cheap either. Explains likely lack of money for Attwood.
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Stuart out, Rae in, Fia to bench
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
Stuart out, Rae in, Fia to bench
RAEBURN SHIELD
Quote:hasta
Yeah you can't imagine Sinckler and next year Genge will be cheap either. Explains likely lack of money for Attwood.
Absolutely. Whilst there has been a lot of chat about genge taking a pay cut he was meant to be on 350k+ at Tigers I think so sure the bris contract is still fairly chunky!
Quote:Which Tyler
https://www.facebook.com/bathrugby/photos/a.241679392511661/5309156112430605
Stuart out, Rae in, Fia to bench
Big blow. Didn't like the forward pack match up even with stuart.....big swing to sale I think
Quote:hasta
Yeah you can't imagine Sinckler and next year Genge will be cheap either. Explains likely lack of money for Attwood.
MacGinty allegedly offered more than Sale prepared to offer as well. Likely to be around £400k I would think
I think my point, if ever there were one, was it was fun to highlight Sarries and now Sale as importing a load of SA grunt, but as always these things are cyclical and have a habit of coming back round to bite you.
I’m still proud of our EQP record, even though it’s not turned into silverware yet and won’t until the 24/25 season.
I’m still proud of our EQP record, even though it’s not turned into silverware yet and won’t until the 24/25 season.
Quote:Chris1850Quote:hasta
Yeah you can't imagine Sinckler and next year Genge will be cheap either. Explains likely lack of money for Attwood.
MacGinty allegedly offered more than Sale prepared to offer as well. Likely to be around £400k I would think
Wowsers.
As you say hasta no wonder they are having to offload some inc prob attwood.
They prob had the good sense to ensure they still have 2 marquee next season.
Still feels like they must have about 5 players using over a third of the cap outside of that!
Quote:charlieboaQuote:Chris1850Quote:hasta
Yeah you can't imagine Sinckler and next year Genge will be cheap either. Explains likely lack of money for Attwood.
MacGinty allegedly offered more than Sale prepared to offer as well. Likely to be around £400k I would think
Wowsers.
As you say hasta no wonder they are having to offload some inc prob attwood.
They prob had the good sense to ensure they still have 2 marquee next season.
Still feels like they must have about 5 players using over a third of the cap outside of that!
If you are right, back of a fag packet would suggest say 40 odd other players on an average of around £80k pa each? Probably not unreasonable given that some will be on more but some on less? Goes to show how difficult it must be to balance a squad though, and stay within the SC rules.
Quote:charlieboaQuote:Chris1850Quote:hasta
Yeah you can't imagine Sinckler and next year Genge will be cheap either. Explains likely lack of money for Attwood.
MacGinty allegedly offered more than Sale prepared to offer as well. Likely to be around £400k I would think
Wowsers.
As you say hasta no wonder they are having to offload some inc prob attwood.
They prob had the good sense to ensure they still have 2 marquee next season.
Still feels like they must have about 5 players using over a third of the cap outside of that!
Is AJM that good? They have Sheedy and Ioan Lloyd both Wales internationals Tiff Eden and Sam Bedlow and they are going for broke on AJ.
MacGinty is absolutely class for me. Sale are a totally different team without him. Definite upgrade for Bris. Only question would be about injury record.
Ryan Davis… or Danny Cipriani, hasta. Either way, looking good.
Hughes and Underhill giving us front foot ball makes all the difference, too.
Hughes and Underhill giving us front foot ball makes all the difference, too.
Well after listening to Hatley's comments on selection and watching that game they clearly see JJ as a playmaker! Him taking it to the line to pass to Cips to make the killer pass worked well in that first half. Which makes the JJ > Bailey swap make more sense, even if I disagree with it. Fingers crossed it's just long term versatility preparation rather than an ambition
Would’ve taken a draw before KO! But second 40 we were abject at best.
Still, considering we were missing a pack of Boyce Dunn Stuart McNally Ewels Reid Coetzee Faletau (amongst many, many others) I thought our guys stood up ok.
Interesting we took the draw with a penalty at the end. I would’ve scrummed (maybe not with our scrum!) or tapped and blitzed for the try. Big difference between 2 points and 5. But, as above, considering where we are and the two squads on paper, I’d have taken 2 points before KO, so it’ll do.
Still, considering we were missing a pack of Boyce Dunn Stuart McNally Ewels Reid Coetzee Faletau (amongst many, many others) I thought our guys stood up ok.
Interesting we took the draw with a penalty at the end. I would’ve scrummed (maybe not with our scrum!) or tapped and blitzed for the try. Big difference between 2 points and 5. But, as above, considering where we are and the two squads on paper, I’d have taken 2 points before KO, so it’ll do.
Definitely would have taken that when teams announced but that second half was just awful and showed all the frailties JVG needs to iradicate in order for us to be competitive.
Still 2 games against a strong Sale team this season and only 1 point separating the teams on the scorecard.
Still 2 games against a strong Sale team this season and only 1 point separating the teams on the scorecard.
Quote:hasta
MacGinty is absolutely class for me. Sale are a totally different team without him
Well played today but to endorse the above if MacGinty is playing today I think that's a win for Sharks. Rob du Preez is probably part of the worst 3 for 2 deal that has ever been offered in the history of time!
MacGinty with Eden and possibly Lloyd as understudy has a great look to it. Sheedy to go to Wales where the club rugby is closer to his level (meow!)
Thouroughly peed off we lost that match. 21-7 up at half time at home and cant close it out with 15 v their sin bin in the 2nd half. If FAF could kick we would have been well beaten. It's just pants...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
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My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
It does show the opportunity though...............
I think JVG is going to be the Messiah...............its just a matter of timing!!
I think JVG is going to be the Messiah...............its just a matter of timing!!
So Clarkey sees a draw as a loss, I get what he means but it also means we aren't going to be 'relegated' now points difference only keeps us bottom.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
It does show the opportunity though...............
I think JVG is going to be the Messiah...............its just a matter of timing!!
JvG has won nothing with Munster in a few years and they play in the Pro14/URC. I'll wait and see if he's the Messiah...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Clarkey3kQuote:Bath Supporter Jack
It does show the opportunity though...............
I think JVG is going to be the Messiah...............its just a matter of timing!!
JvG has won nothing with Munster in a few years and they play in the Pro14/URC. I'll wait and see if he's the Messiah...
Not easy though when your neighbours, Leinster get fist pick of everyone!
Even with ref link that was a difficult ref performance to fathom, thought a lot of his instructions were unclear - more like a vague suggestion to the scrum halves to think about using it and no real policing of the 5 second law.
Mind you, wasn't filled with confidence before the game. Someone turned ref link on early so you could hear him in the dressing room discussing why it was better to put vaseline on before deep heat...
Mind you, wasn't filled with confidence before the game. Someone turned ref link on early so you could hear him in the dressing room discussing why it was better to put vaseline on before deep heat...
No Clarkey that's bo%%ocks. If someone posted on here that if only something had or hadn't happened we would have won they would get jumped on. We've been terrible for most of the season (insert your pet explanation here) but not losing that game is big, you might just as well slate Faf for "not wanting it enough'. The concept of 'deserving' a result is just confirmation bias.
Agreed Susanne.
Thought many of his decisions mysterious, especially his management of the final scrum.
Bath could not cope with the power of Sale’s (reinforced) pack in the 3rd quarter. We were also fortunate that De Klerk failed with 3 kicks.
That said, a Draw was probably a just result - a few late penalties were dubious, while Sale should have been penalised for early push (twice) at that final scrum.
PG
Thought many of his decisions mysterious, especially his management of the final scrum.
Bath could not cope with the power of Sale’s (reinforced) pack in the 3rd quarter. We were also fortunate that De Klerk failed with 3 kicks.
That said, a Draw was probably a just result - a few late penalties were dubious, while Sale should have been penalised for early push (twice) at that final scrum.
PG
Quote:dr.bath1865
What an absolutely awful second half.
+1
Also an absolutely awful ref.
Noted something unpleasant with Sale’s number 4 in the first half whilst ref was trying to find a reason to disallow Hughes try. As they often did Sale players tried to interfere with the ref and the crowd behind the posts suggested he should button it. He then shouted something at them and apparently flicked them the bird.
Hope the citing officer saw that and he gets dealt with as rugby players just don’t behave that way.
Sale are a team that plays to the edge. Their Head coach did when he was a player. The ref was weak for both sides but we did give away some stupid pens and the pen count against us I reckon cost us the victory as their last try was a gift.
Nathan Hughes was the difference to me and we desperately need to replace him.
Well played TdG very safe at the back and reminded me of Matt Perry in his attack from the back. Thought JoCo had a great cameo performance and was everywhere.
So Bath 2nds 24 South Africa 24!
Nathan Hughes was the difference to me and we desperately need to replace him.
Well played TdG very safe at the back and reminded me of Matt Perry in his attack from the back. Thought JoCo had a great cameo performance and was everywhere.
So Bath 2nds 24 South Africa 24!
Our recent wins have been characterized by real impact from the bench forwards (particularly the likes of Boyce, Will Spencer, Jacques du Toit). For this game we just didn't have that depth (which I think we all knew once the team sheets were up). Tom Ellis on comms noted early in the second half that Will Spencer and Ewan Richards were exhausted, and similar with Ben Spencer and TdG towards the end.
Given their power game and the wind in the second half it wasn't surprising they squeezed us. Shame we couldn't make that fourth try stick. But we were massively more threatening in attack (despite a lack of power up front). Nathan Hughes once again superb. A few mistakes here and there, but a decent performance against a very strong team.
Given their power game and the wind in the second half it wasn't surprising they squeezed us. Shame we couldn't make that fourth try stick. But we were massively more threatening in attack (despite a lack of power up front). Nathan Hughes once again superb. A few mistakes here and there, but a decent performance against a very strong team.
Quote:OldMarovian
if MacGinty is playing today I think that's a win for Sharks
Right, and if one, some or all of Stuart, Dunn, Obano, Ewels, Faletau, Watson were playing something else would have happened that didn’t.
Fair point Opti but I was remarking in the difference in quality of two specific 10's rather than a general list of the missing.
Could anyone who's familiar with front row play explain to me why a prop losing their bind is a penalty offence rather than, say, a free kick at worst? I get not driving straight, collapsing, standing up, flankers breaking bind etc, but what possible advantage do you get and how does it hurt the opposition?
Just watched the game. Firstly, that was a thoroughly enjoyable, tightly contested match. For Bath to be able to say that, against such high class opposition, is a big step forward. Our off loading play was ambitious and our forwards and backs interchanged well. Given how inexperienced some of our pack was, I thought the forwards went well, if they were not totally competitve against as shadow Springbok 8 but it was clear that they were tiring from 60 minutes. We really do need more depth there. Good to see JC4 back on the pitch and running support lines close to the ruck. That is exactly what we need from him.
My MotM - Nathan Hughes. It could have been Arthur Cordwell or Will Butt (who were both excellent) but neither of them bring to this team what Nathan Hughes does. It really is night and day, the energy and attitude of the Bath team with and without him. I hope JvG is watching vey closely.
A word for the ref. I thought Hamish Smales was very good. Clear, unshowy and consistent. You really can't ask for more than that.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
My MotM - Nathan Hughes. It could have been Arthur Cordwell or Will Butt (who were both excellent) but neither of them bring to this team what Nathan Hughes does. It really is night and day, the energy and attitude of the Bath team with and without him. I hope JvG is watching vey closely.
A word for the ref. I thought Hamish Smales was very good. Clear, unshowy and consistent. You really can't ask for more than that.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
A bit of a game of two halves. We should have subbed some sooner as the forwards especially were tiring from about 50 mins. Having said that we appeared to loose shape in defence when JJ went off this looked to be tactical rather than injury as it was the same move as previously against Bristol.
On the ref it was a bit of a curates egg of a performance. He wasn’t very clear to spectators not having ref link. Didn’t seem to call or signal time off so clock ran on through injuries and scrum resets. Did try to do something about off side but only in bursts totally ignored side entry and staying on your feet at the breakdown so was consistent in that, made a few strange calls at scrum time where he could have had more help from his assistants All in all given he has not done many premiership games he wasn’t that bad and could develop into a decent premiership ref god knows we need some.
On the ref it was a bit of a curates egg of a performance. He wasn’t very clear to spectators not having ref link. Didn’t seem to call or signal time off so clock ran on through injuries and scrum resets. Did try to do something about off side but only in bursts totally ignored side entry and staying on your feet at the breakdown so was consistent in that, made a few strange calls at scrum time where he could have had more help from his assistants All in all given he has not done many premiership games he wasn’t that bad and could develop into a decent premiership ref god knows we need some.
Quote:hasta
Our recent wins have been characterized by real impact from the bench forwards (particularly the likes of Boyce, Will Spencer, Jacques du Toit). For this game we just didn't have that depth (which I think we all knew once the team sheets were up). Tom Ellis on comms noted early in the second half that Will Spencer and Ewan Richards were exhausted, and similar with Ben Spencer and TdG towards the end.
Given their power game and the wind in the second half it wasn't surprising they squeezed us.
Totally agree and I think this is absolutely the difference between having 10-15 players unavailable and over 20 players missing.
Bench included 6th choice loosehead, 4th choice tighthead on loan, lock on short term loan.... so far from ideal.
It's not an excuse because other clubs don't have 20+ missing most weeks- something is going wrong and I am sure Ed g is all over it.
On w spencer specifically why is he always exhausted? I am a huge fan of his but he has largely been fit and available since November. Should be able get through more than a half of rugby before blowing up?
From the radio commentary and reading various forum posts sounds like hughes, cips, jj, butt, tdg were stand out?
Nod to cordwell for going the 80 (if vaughan is fully fit then poke in the eye for him, can certainly see him being released).
Coko positive impact off bench.
Things are gradually moving in the right direction and coaching changes will help but hughes is a genuine contender for player of the season. I find it hugely embarrassing that a bloke can arrive in Feb on the back of v little rugby and be in the running.
Nod to cordwell for going the 80 (if vaughan is fully fit then poke in the eye for him, can certainly see him being released).
Coko positive impact off bench.
Things are gradually moving in the right direction and coaching changes will help but hughes is a genuine contender for player of the season. I find it hugely embarrassing that a bloke can arrive in Feb on the back of v little rugby and be in the running.
Hughes comes across as being happy at the club and has definitaly been a positive asset. Has the Clermont deal been finalised? Have we made as serious offer? could/should we up it?
I am aware his form can tail off when he gets bored, but we honestly have not got anyone who can do what he has for us, even Toby!
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
I am aware his form can tail off when he gets bored, but we honestly have not got anyone who can do what he has for us, even Toby!
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
What was wrong with the Hughes try in the first half? Even the replays on the big screen didn’t show anything to rule out the try.
Quote:OutsideBath
What was wrong with the Hughes try in the first half? Even the replays on the big screen didn’t show anything to rule out the try.
Banners on the radio said he was first man forming the ruck meaning he couldnt then pick and go through the middle. No idea if that is right as only heard it not seen it
Quote:Trawling
No Clarkey that's bo%%ocks. If someone posted on here that if only something had or hadn't happened we would have won they would get jumped on. We've been terrible for most of the season (insert your pet explanation here) but not losing that game is big, you might just as well slate Faf for "not wanting it enough'. The concept of 'deserving' a result is just confirmation bias.
Morning shipwrecked - re my loss comment, see the opening words of Hatley in this BBC summary; "It's funny, the changing room feels like a loss", which is exactly how it felt to me.
Morning Trawling - re my bolleaux post, the match report in The Sunday Times today is accompanied by the headline "De Klerk's faulty boot gifts Bath two points" whilst The Rugby Paper report headline is "Sale's poor footwork opens the door for Bath".
It seems others share my bias
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:OptimistQuote:OldMarovian
if MacGinty is playing today I think that's a win for Sharks
Right, and if one, some or all of Stuart, Dunn, Obano, Ewels, Faletau, Watson were playing something else would have happened that didn’t.
highly likely, OM that McGinty's goalkicking would have been worth an extra 8-10 points for Sale. However, they relied heavily on penalties for field position and momentum. How many of those would bath have given away if the forwards Opti mentions had been playing? Not to mention the likes of Boyce, McNally, Ellis, Reid?
PG
I think TGK has hit the nail on the head. Many ref decisions were unclear without benefit of reflink- they might have made more sense to a TV watcher. He also completely ignored blatant ruck infringements in the red zone. Sale could have been more heavily penalised (even carded) in the second quarter.
PG
PG
Sanderson reflections on Bath post game - “With Ed Griffiths coming in (as chairman), some of their injured players coming back and some of their better players, they look sharp and dangerous. Put a bit of weight into their front five and you’ve got a real team there.”
Maybe it's my own bias but he's completely right. Front 5 still a big area of recruitment.
Maybe it's my own bias but he's completely right. Front 5 still a big area of recruitment.
On the Hughes try, there was a small knock on in the ruck (from Underhill) just before he picked it up.
Quote:P G Tips
I think TGK has hit the nail on the head. Many ref decisions were unclear without benefit of reflink- they might have made more sense to a TV watcher. He also completely ignored blatant ruck infringements in the red zone. Sale could have been more heavily penalised (even carded) in the second quarter.
PG
Interesting to see Hoops storming up to the ref at the end,, you could clearly hear him saying he couldn't understand the ref's decisions on the final scrum. Nor could the rest of us but I don't think that was appropriate behavior from the DoR - ref reminded him it could be discussed afterwards and he repeated himself. Isn't it Hats' job anyway?
Quote:hasta
On the Hughes try, there was a small knock on in the ruck (from Underhill) just before he picked it up.
Thanks Hasta, just appeared to us in the ground that he was just looking to find a reason not to award the try. All the 50/50 calls seemed to be going against us so it’s interesting to listen to the opinions of those watching on tv.
Even so I thought his handling of the scrums was dreadful and he let the 2 front rows waste too much time.
Our pre-pre-season is going very well. New players and combos being tried, squad depth improved, less reliance on one-off starry moments. Feel good.
Quote:SusanneQuote:P G Tips
I think TGK has hit the nail on the head. Many ref decisions were unclear without benefit of reflink- they might have made more sense to a TV watcher. He also completely ignored blatant ruck infringements in the red zone. Sale could have been more heavily penalised (even carded) in the second quarter.
PG
Interesting to see Hoops storming up to the ref at the end,, you could clearly hear him saying he couldn't understand the ref's decisions on the final scrum. Nor could the rest of us but I don't think that was appropriate behavior from the DoR - ref reminded him it could be discussed afterwards and he repeated himself. Isn't it Hats' job anyway?
Hoops gets grief from us if he doesn't show emotion and then gets grief when he does!
Quote:charlieboaQuote:OutsideBath
What was wrong with the Hughes try in the first half? Even the replays on the big screen didn’t show anything to rule out the try.
Banners on the radio said he was first man forming the ruck meaning he couldnt then pick and go through the middle. No idea if that is right as only heard it not seen it
That’s how I saw it from right at the other end of the ground. Ruck was formed therefore hands in the ruck. Which was a shame as it rounded off a great spell of play and would have won us the game.
J
Quote:knock-on in the ruck.OutsideBath
What was wrong with the Hughes try in the first half? Even the replays on the big screen didn’t show anything to rule out the try.
Hughes was the hindmost man, as ... whoever was behind him unbound to reposition elsewhere, so Hughes was allowed to pick up.
ETA: sorry beaten to it by Hasta - hadn't seen this had moved to a second page
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:03:27:13:34:53 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Optimist
Our pre-pre-season is going very well. New players and combos being tried, squad depth improved, less reliance on one-off starry moments. Feel good.
Our revival owes much to the outstanding contribution from Nathan Hughes and we need him or another like him next season. Attwood can carry but not as regularly from lock. Our existing back row options are lightweight in comparison...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Somewhere between Opti and Clarkey on this. Definitely good for the likes of Cordwell, Richards, Butt, Doughty to be getting this game time and they're all improving, as is our pattern in attack and our offloading. Hughes energy on and off the field seems to have given everyone a massive lift though and both of those will need replaced.
Quote:I think this is a great way to look at it.Optimist
Our pre-pre-season is going very well. New players and combos being tried, squad depth improved, less reliance on one-off starry moments. Feel good.
Quote:hemington
Hoops gets grief from us if he doesn't show emotion and then gets grief when he does!
I wasn't questioning him showing emotion, just the appropriateness I'd when he did it, laying into the ref at the final whistle...
Interesting, as far as I know no one on here has played professional.
I think most of us have played rugby at some time.....................in my case in a completely different era.
However whatever our knowledge and experience I think we all agree that out front five are the weakest part of the squad.
We then have another DOR/Coach saying with some more weight in the Front Five, they (Bath) would be a competitive team.
Therefore I am absolutely sure that Hooper, Hateley, Craig, Macdonald and "Uncle Tom Cobbley" are also aware of that.
I am also sure that every agent representing a 4 or a 5 has been in touch with Bath. For whatever reason we have decided not to hire, or more precisely we have not felt the need to pay what was required.
Given it is obvious to a "one eyed Albanian", as the famous saying by the "Bouncing Czech" what Bath's principal problem is then I have to conclude that there is a greater plan or we are seriously compromised on the salary cap.
I am sure that there is a greater plan and all will be revealed in due course!!
I think most of us have played rugby at some time.....................in my case in a completely different era.
However whatever our knowledge and experience I think we all agree that out front five are the weakest part of the squad.
We then have another DOR/Coach saying with some more weight in the Front Five, they (Bath) would be a competitive team.
Therefore I am absolutely sure that Hooper, Hateley, Craig, Macdonald and "Uncle Tom Cobbley" are also aware of that.
I am also sure that every agent representing a 4 or a 5 has been in touch with Bath. For whatever reason we have decided not to hire, or more precisely we have not felt the need to pay what was required.
Given it is obvious to a "one eyed Albanian", as the famous saying by the "Bouncing Czech" what Bath's principal problem is then I have to conclude that there is a greater plan or we are seriously compromised on the salary cap.
I am sure that there is a greater plan and all will be revealed in due course!!
I've just watched the highlights, and it's interesting to see the comments about the refereeing above. One thing that struck me just from the highlights was there appeared to be a lot of sealing off and going off feet at the ruck by Sale players.
Couple that with Ben Curry holding Nathan Hughes by the ankle when the latter wasn't even part of the ruck, it seemed just from the highlights to be something of a trend. Was that a particular issue in the game (i.e. off ball/off feet stuff)?
I find it really tiresome all the attempts to hold on to players after rucks and tackles. It probably didn't make a difference but if Hughes had been able to regain his feet, it may have had a defensive impact.
Should refs be penalising that sort of thing more?
Couple that with Ben Curry holding Nathan Hughes by the ankle when the latter wasn't even part of the ruck, it seemed just from the highlights to be something of a trend. Was that a particular issue in the game (i.e. off ball/off feet stuff)?
I find it really tiresome all the attempts to hold on to players after rucks and tackles. It probably didn't make a difference but if Hughes had been able to regain his feet, it may have had a defensive impact.
Should refs be penalising that sort of thing more?
Also seeing the "forward roll" by Clark, it actually looks like it was a deliberate trip. I haven't seen the whole game yet, but was this penalised or even looked at?
The trip was not penalised but Curry was penalised a moment or so later for another infringement & carded for "team persistent infringement.
And SJs- yes there was certainly a lot of sealing off, side entry etc in the rucks. did not (apart from the Curry/Hughes) incident notice any holding down.
PG
And SJs- yes there was certainly a lot of sealing off, side entry etc in the rucks. did not (apart from the Curry/Hughes) incident notice any holding down.
PG
Err, no Clarkey it's an objective fact that the missed kick at the death would have changed the result. My point is that you have set up a counter factual view of the game where that kick SHOULD have gone over to prove your opinion correct. He missed the kick, it was a draw. Yes a lot of journalists fall for the same way of framing a result - S Jones being a prime example.
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