Bath
THROWN TO THE – TIGERS? LEICESTER V BATH
McNally-responsibility
By PG Tips
November 2 2021
Bath will be cast as sacrificial lambs when they visit Welford Road on Friday night. The Tigers’ lair will be an even more daunting place than usual for a team low on results, low on confidence and shorn of 50% of its’ senior squad. Leicester Tigers by contrast have enjoyed a perfect start to their season, winning seven from seven, including last week’s seven try demolition of Northampton Saints. The omens look very bleak for Bath.
Steve Borthwick has restored the Leicester DNA of some of their most triumphant seasons, not just in results, but attitude, demeanour and style. They will be buoyed by crushing their derby rivals, the Welford faithful will expect their snarling beasts to devour the visitors and Borthwick looks odds on an honorary Tiger only two months into his second season as DOR.
Tigers may well be missing Genge, Dolly, and Martin from the pack on England duty, with Youngs and Steward of the backs also required. Those absences should not weaken them much- a testament to Borthwick’s recruitment and squad building. Up front they can still call on Cole, Heyes, Montoya, Wells and Wiese, plus the highly promising Reffell. They are well blessed with running threats: the power of Nadolo and Kelly and the sharp running lines of Moroni and Potter. Expect these to be steered into gaps by Wigglesworth and Ford, who may still wish to prove a point or two to Bath, as will Full Back Burns.
With a growing injury list, Bath will travel with a squad short on experience in some key areas, a makeshift patchwork in others. Unless Will Spencer and Taulupe Faletau’s returns to fitness have accelerated dramatically, they look short of hefty carriers up front, an additional burden for Captain Josh McNally. Fans and coaches will hope for a return this week of Jaco Coetzee. Injuries and England calls mean the likely front five are mostly second or third choices (although Jacques Du Toit makes a convincing bid for first choice hooker). In the loose forwards international aspirants Reid and Bayliss (unlucky not to get a Scotland call) should once again team up with De Carpentier, who had a lively home debut last week. There should be more stability behind the scrum where last week’s selection may continue, although there could be places for McConnochie (if fit) and Joseph.
The announcement last week of a review by Ed Griffith’s gives fans hope that Bath’s long-term plan can be put back on track, to improve performance in the short term and a strong basis for the future. It also gives notice that both structure and performance will be under the microscope and change is needed. For now, the players will be desperate to put the disappointment of the past six matches behind them and put in a performance to match their potential. What better place than a hostile (and potentially cocky) Welford Road on a Friday night, to showcase defiance, doggedness and determination?
If they are to escape a mauling Bath must embody all three. They should also stick to their guns in attack and spring surprises. The review period begins after Friday’s clash. There will be time for analysis then. For now they will want to show what they are made of. Lambs they are not, but they will need the heart, strength and courage of Lions on Friday evening.
Possible Teams.
Bath Rugby: Schoeman, Du Toit, Rae, McNally (Capt.), Ellis, De Carpentier, Reid, Merigan. Fox, Bailey. Muir, Ojomoh, Clark, McConnochie. De Glanville.
Replacements:, Cordwell, Dunn, Verden, Richards, Cowan. Green, Cipriani, Joseph.
Leicester Tigers: van Wyk,Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Wells, Snyman, van Staden, Reffell, Martin. Wigglesworth, Ford. Nadolo, Socino, Kelly, Potter. Burns.
Replacements: Dolly, Leatigaga, Heyes, Green, Chessum. Van Poortvliet, Hegarty. Murimurivalu.
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Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 02/11/2021 16:12
02/11/2021 16:12
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:09:11:17:24 by P G Tips.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:09:11:17:24 by P G Tips.
Thanks for the preview. Montoya, Moroni with Argentina, Wiese with SA.
"The announcement last week of a review by Ed Griffith’s gives fans hope .... to improve performance in the short term"
Not to me it doesn't.
Longer term, it may well be useful. But unless EG is Brian Ashton in disguise, I can't see any change in fortunes on the pitch this side of 2022.
Not to me it doesn't.
Longer term, it may well be useful. But unless EG is Brian Ashton in disguise, I can't see any change in fortunes on the pitch this side of 2022.
Will be interesting to see if Borthwick can pull off the Exeter/Baxter ability to have put in place a system that every player can slot into, with (relatively) little drop-off. It wouldn't surprise me if he has.
Quote:Optimist
"The announcement last week of a review by Ed Griffith’s gives fans hope .... to improve performance in the short term"
Not to me it doesn't.
Longer term, it may well be useful. But unless EG isBrian AshtonBrodie Retallick in disguise (and brought his boots), I can't see any change in fortunes on the pitch this side of 2022.
FTFY
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Dolly and Martin released by Eddie. Ewels, Stuart and Underhill retained.
Must say, we’ve got no luck with injuries or availability at the moment when our oppos seem to be getting a little. (I know, I know, it all evens out in the end etc etc etc).
Must say, we’ve got no luck with injuries or availability at the moment when our oppos seem to be getting a little. (I know, I know, it all evens out in the end etc etc etc).
Quote:Alphonse the Dog
Thanks for the preview. Montoya, Moroni with Argentina, Wiese with SA.
Van Staden also with SA, but not in 23 for Wales game.
Injury news all bad news too, with all of the 50/50s (Boyce, Simpson, Ellis, McCon, Coetzee, Spencer, Spencer) all sounding unlikely and Bayliss is away with Scotland.
Goodness. Regardless of whose fault it is, and how much bad luck is in play, it does feel like we’re all over the place.
Goodness. Regardless of whose fault it is, and how much bad luck is in play, it does feel like we’re all over the place.
Tigers could have 2 SAs in Liebenberg and Brink back in action from injury in the back row to replace Wiese and VS. Plus Martin released from EPS. Chessum has also being playing well.
Wells and Snyman both came off injured against Saints but good replacements in Green and Henderson.
Front Row missing Genge, Montoya, Tom Youngs and Clare. So release of Dolly is nice and expect him and TCD to share the hooking duties.
Backs the only real selection issue is 13 in who replaces Moroni/Scott. Potter has been injured.
Socino may come in at 12 and Kelly move to 13 or may see Murimurivalu there.
Wells and Snyman both came off injured against Saints but good replacements in Green and Henderson.
Front Row missing Genge, Montoya, Tom Youngs and Clare. So release of Dolly is nice and expect him and TCD to share the hooking duties.
Backs the only real selection issue is 13 in who replaces Moroni/Scott. Potter has been injured.
Socino may come in at 12 and Kelly move to 13 or may see Murimurivalu there.
Thanks for the updates.
Have amended the possible teams - no idea if my guesses are correct. Probably a few surprises to come.
PG
Have amended the possible teams - no idea if my guesses are correct. Probably a few surprises to come.
PG
Tigers 1/9, Bath at 15/2 for Friday night with oddschecker at the moment;
Paddy Power giving Bath a 16 point start - [www.paddypower.com]; I think we're going to need more than that tbh...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Paddy Power giving Bath a 16 point start - [www.paddypower.com]; I think we're going to need more than that tbh...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Interestingly over the season thus far:
- Tigers have scored an average of 32 and conceded 16
- Bath have scored an average of 17 (19, 13, 20, 17, 17 and 17) and conceded 32
However with Tigers two big wins have actually been away this season, although the fact that it was 2 of the last 3 games is a worry (Worcester and Saints). The only game that they have scored fewer than 19 was Sarries.
All that points to, especially with half the Bath squad unavailable, is something like 40 - 15 I reckon so agree with Clarkey that 16 isn't going to be nearly enough.
Of course numbers are just numbers, so would love to be proven very wrong! Bath are 7-1 for the win if anyone fancies it (I don't, it would need to be 20+).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
- Tigers have scored an average of 32 and conceded 16
- Bath have scored an average of 17 (19, 13, 20, 17, 17 and 17) and conceded 32
However with Tigers two big wins have actually been away this season, although the fact that it was 2 of the last 3 games is a worry (Worcester and Saints). The only game that they have scored fewer than 19 was Sarries.
All that points to, especially with half the Bath squad unavailable, is something like 40 - 15 I reckon so agree with Clarkey that 16 isn't going to be nearly enough.
Of course numbers are just numbers, so would love to be proven very wrong! Bath are 7-1 for the win if anyone fancies it (I don't, it would need to be 20+).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Match officials
Referee: Matthew Carley (110th Premiership game). Assistant Referees: Paul Dix & Gareth Holsgrove. TMO: Ian Tempest. Citing Officer: Shaun Gallagher.
Referee: Matthew Carley (110th Premiership game). Assistant Referees: Paul Dix & Gareth Holsgrove. TMO: Ian Tempest. Citing Officer: Shaun Gallagher.
Williams 4 week ban reduced by a week if he does course.
[www.englandrugby.com]
Kitman 1 week plus a presentation.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:03:12:59:41 by tigersimon.
[www.englandrugby.com]
Kitman 1 week plus a presentation.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:03:12:59:41 by tigersimon.
So far as I can see the likely missing list for Friday night is:
1. Bayliss (back row) – international
2. Boyce (loose head) – injury
3. Coetzee (back row) – injury
4. Cokanasiga (wing) – injury
5. Ellis (back row) – injury
6. Ewels (lock) – international
7. Faletau (back row) – injury
8. Obano (loose head) – injury
9. Redpath (centre) – injury
10. Schoeman (Fly half) – injury
11. Simpson (scrum half) – injury
12. Spencer (scrum half) – injury
13. Spencer (lock) – injury
14. Stuart (tight head) – international
15. Underhill (back row) – international
16. Watson (wing) – injury
17. Williams (lock) - disciplinary
How can any team be expected to win a game of Premiership Rugby in the face of this?
1. Bayliss (back row) – international
2. Boyce (loose head) – injury
3. Coetzee (back row) – injury
4. Cokanasiga (wing) – injury
5. Ellis (back row) – injury
6. Ewels (lock) – international
7. Faletau (back row) – injury
8. Obano (loose head) – injury
9. Redpath (centre) – injury
10. Schoeman (Fly half) – injury
11. Simpson (scrum half) – injury
12. Spencer (scrum half) – injury
13. Spencer (lock) – injury
14. Stuart (tight head) – international
15. Underhill (back row) – international
16. Watson (wing) – injury
17. Williams (lock) - disciplinary
How can any team be expected to win a game of Premiership Rugby in the face of this?
Quote:malco
So far as I can see the likely missing list for Friday night is:
1. Bayliss (back row) – international
2. Boyce (loose head) – injury
3. Coetzee (back row) – injury
4. Cokanasiga (wing) – injury
5. Ellis (back row) – injury
6. Ewels (lock) – international
7. Faletau (back row) – injury
8. Obano (loose head) – injury
9. Redpath (centre) – injury
10. Schoeman (Fly half) – injury
11. Simpson (scrum half) – injury
12. Spencer (scrum half) – injury
13. Spencer (lock) – injury
14. Stuart (tight head) – international
15. Underhill (back row) – international
16. Watson (wing) – injury
17. Williams (lock) - disciplinary
How can any team be expected to win a game of Premiership Rugby in the face of this?
It's likely that Bayliss, Coetzee and Simpson will be back right?
Quote:byQuote:malco
So far as I can see the likely missing list for Friday night is:
1. Bayliss (back row) – international
2. Boyce (loose head) – injury
3. Coetzee (back row) – injury
4. Cokanasiga (wing) – injury
5. Ellis (back row) – injury
6. Ewels (lock) – international
7. Faletau (back row) – injury
8. Obano (loose head) – injury
9. Redpath (centre) – injury
10. Schoeman (Fly half) – injury
11. Simpson (scrum half) – injury
12. Spencer (scrum half) – injury
13. Spencer (lock) – injury
14. Stuart (tight head) – international
15. Underhill (back row) – international
16. Watson (wing) – injury
17. Williams (lock) - disciplinary
How can any team be expected to win a game of Premiership Rugby in the face of this?
It's likely that Bayliss, Coetzee and Simpson will be back right?
No. Bayliss is away with Scotland and both Coetzee and Simpson are still going through protocols for head injuries.
Ah well that gives the coaching team a ready made excuse for another abject performance.
You can add McConnochie to that list Malco.
18 missing. 13 are internationals, plus 3 Bayliss, Boyce & Ellis) are current or recent international squad members.
Quite a list!
PG
18 missing. 13 are internationals, plus 3 Bayliss, Boyce & Ellis) are current or recent international squad members.
Quite a list!
PG
I agree it's very grim but wasps had similar sized list and I think leic will be similar this weekend. Tbf maybe not lost the amount of quality we have. I think 2-3 of our list will be back available.
Its the nature of a brutally physical league that carries on during internationals.
Other clubs are consistently more able to cope than us imho. Hoops hasn't been shy in flagging up the issue which I don't think ever bodes well- borths just said it is what is and get on with it.
Its the nature of a brutally physical league that carries on during internationals.
Other clubs are consistently more able to cope than us imho. Hoops hasn't been shy in flagging up the issue which I don't think ever bodes well- borths just said it is what is and get on with it.
Could seriously do with ellis being fit to cover second row.
Sounds like it's a week too early for will spencer.
Sounds like it's a week too early for will spencer.
To be fair to Hooper, it's easier to be philosophical when your team is 7-0 and you're seen as The Messiah, as opposed to being 0-6 with your position under intense scrutiny. Also true to say that Bath's squad is even more decimated than Leicester's, for all the issues created by not having strength in depth in key areas.
Well whatever the result, I just hope the lads who are selected get stuck in, give everything and dont give brainless penalties away. I think the club are just wanting to get this game out of the way and reset over the next few weeks. That could mean changes at the top or incoming coaches/players and obviously get some of the injured boys back on the pitch. Whatever we keep going!
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Quote:OutsideBath
Ah well that gives the coaching team a ready made excuse for another abject performance.
Well - yes, it actually does on this occasion.
It will be something like this:
Knock on
Scrum penalty against Bath
Ford kicks to corner
Tigers try from line out drive
Repeat
Experience for some youngsters & squad members but not a lot else to be positive about.
So write the season off & build for next year, just as Tigers did 2 seasons ago
Knock on
Scrum penalty against Bath
Ford kicks to corner
Tigers try from line out drive
Repeat
Experience for some youngsters & squad members but not a lot else to be positive about.
So write the season off & build for next year, just as Tigers did 2 seasons ago
Team Up:
Bath Rugby team to play Leicester Tigers
15 Orlando Bailey, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Will Muir, 10 Danny Cipriani, 9 Ollie Fox; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Josh McNally ©, 5 Ewan Richards, 6 Tom Ellis, 7 Richard de Carpentier, 8 Miles Reid
Replacements
16 Jacques du Toit, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 Kieran Verden, 19 Nahum Merigan, 20 Tom Cowan, 21 Max Green, 22 Max Ojomoh, 23 Ruaridh McConnochie
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Bath Rugby team to play Leicester Tigers
15 Orlando Bailey, 14 Semesa Rokoduguni, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Max Clark, 11 Will Muir, 10 Danny Cipriani, 9 Ollie Fox; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2 Tom Dunn, 3 D’Arcy Rae, 4 Josh McNally ©, 5 Ewan Richards, 6 Tom Ellis, 7 Richard de Carpentier, 8 Miles Reid
Replacements
16 Jacques du Toit, 17 Arthur Cordwell, 18 Kieran Verden, 19 Nahum Merigan, 20 Tom Cowan, 21 Max Green, 22 Max Ojomoh, 23 Ruaridh McConnochie
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
15 Freddie Burns [82]
14 Guy Porter [22]
13 Matt Scott [30]
12 Dan Kelly [25]
11 Nemani Nadolo [22]
10 George Ford (c) [112]
9 Jack van Poortvliet [26]
1 Francois van Wyk [4]
2 Nic Dolly [8]
3 Dan Cole [271]
4 Harry Wells [131]
5 Calum Green [66]
6 Ollie Chessum [13]
7 Tommy Reffell [53]
8 Cyle Brink [17] *
REPLACEMENTS
16 Tom Cowan-Dickie [3]
17 Nephi Leatigaga [48]
18 Joe Heyes [77]
19 Eli Snyman [5]
20 George Martin [22]
21 Richard Wigglesworth [19]
22 Bryce Hegarty [1]
23 Kini Murimurivalu [25]
14 Guy Porter [22]
13 Matt Scott [30]
12 Dan Kelly [25]
11 Nemani Nadolo [22]
10 George Ford (c) [112]
9 Jack van Poortvliet [26]
1 Francois van Wyk [4]
2 Nic Dolly [8]
3 Dan Cole [271]
4 Harry Wells [131]
5 Calum Green [66]
6 Ollie Chessum [13]
7 Tommy Reffell [53]
8 Cyle Brink [17] *
REPLACEMENTS
16 Tom Cowan-Dickie [3]
17 Nephi Leatigaga [48]
18 Joe Heyes [77]
19 Eli Snyman [5]
20 George Martin [22]
21 Richard Wigglesworth [19]
22 Bryce Hegarty [1]
23 Kini Murimurivalu [25]
Considering how many people are injured thats better than i thought, bench looks somewhat raw
Agreed WP. Going to be a long night - but not without hope that we can keep some pride.
Well, I guess we don't have much of a choice, but it'll be good to see a lot of the youngsters get some game time in essentially a written off game. I mean, is it wrong to say it's a write off? Is that defeatism, realism, disrespectful to those putting on the shirt, projectionism from myself now that I'm becoming increasingly more sanguine over the team?
Goodness. OK starting XV, but their pack's strength will be too much, both starting and especially on the bench. Glad Richards gets a start as he provides a lineout option other than de Charp.
Incredibly frustrating/unlucky with selection again. They get Scott back. We don't see Bayliss. They get Martin and Dolly back. Ewels and Stuart are England 'finishers'. Also, our injuries/knocks (Coetzee, Simpson etc) are taking an age to clear up and we lose TdG, last week's MotM, too. Sick of it all, really.
Incredibly frustrating/unlucky with selection again. They get Scott back. We don't see Bayliss. They get Martin and Dolly back. Ewels and Stuart are England 'finishers'. Also, our injuries/knocks (Coetzee, Simpson etc) are taking an age to clear up and we lose TdG, last week's MotM, too. Sick of it all, really.
They look a lot better than us on paper before you even take into account relative form.
A long evening awaits I fear.
Hoops masterplan he always says about integrating academy guys into a winning team surrounded by experience is going well as ever. I am not saying he has any option this week but has previously to get them ready for this e.g. richards getting some game time behind beno and stuart. I would rather he was just honest and say we will just play then when desperate in underpowered team.
A long evening awaits I fear.
Hoops masterplan he always says about integrating academy guys into a winning team surrounded by experience is going well as ever. I am not saying he has any option this week but has previously to get them ready for this e.g. richards getting some game time behind beno and stuart. I would rather he was just honest and say we will just play then when desperate in underpowered team.
Quote:Optimist
That's a bit harsh charlie!
I thought this bit was very generous:
Hoops masterplan
I have only one wish for the game and that's everyone (on both sides) gets through it without any sort of significant injury.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I think this is going to be pretty ugly unfortunately. Being based in the midlands I always go to this fixture but not this year, I just can’t drag myself out in the cold on a Friday night to fight the traffic into and out of Leicester road watch the current dross.
I also couldn’t take the gloating from tiggers fans, I mean good luck to them as they have had to watch some dross also last couple of years but not with such regularity as us.
I fear 50 points against us at least. But we al know nothing will change hence my apathy now.
I also couldn’t take the gloating from tiggers fans, I mean good luck to them as they have had to watch some dross also last couple of years but not with such regularity as us.
I fear 50 points against us at least. But we al know nothing will change hence my apathy now.
Quote:Optimist
That's a bit harsh charlie!
I am just about a 'hoops in' man still but sometimes I wish he said nothing rather than nonsense. He gave mojo his prem debut off the bench when we were down to 12 men. I don't have any huge problem with throwing them in but don't pretend there is some strategy behind it cos there is not evidence of that.
Tbf there are young players we have managed well generally e.g. tdg. I just feel its a shame to be brought in for this hiding to nothing for the likes of cordwell, verden, richards, merigan, cowan
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:04:12:43:36 by charlieboa.
Two good sides, but I think home advantage will see us through, hope those travelling have safe journeys.
Quote:charlieboa
I just feel its a shame to be brought in for this hiding to nothing for the likes of cordwell, verden, richards, merigan, cowan
I'm sure everyone feels that but what options are there? When should they have been introduced? When we were last winning? Most of them were in short trousers then.
Since when did Welford Road become Mattioli Woods. Never seen any trees around the ground.
Quote:tigerburnie
Two good sides, but I think home advantage will see us through, hope those travelling have safe journeys.
I think you'll be fine. You can get 13:2 on bath with paddy power.
Quote:tigerburnie
Two good sides, but I think home advantage will see us through, hope those travelling have safe journeys.
Thanks for the good wishes. Home advantage and having a better team playing better rugby will see you through I suspect!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:hemington
Since when did Welford Road become Mattioli Woods. Never seen any trees around the ground.
Billy accounted for twelve of them back in the day.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I'm disappointed with the selection, yes the squad is a bit better than what we feared. But I was really hoping for a much more experimental side just to attempt to break up the current malaise in a game we're very unlikely to win. I think as fans we would have rather seen some of the up and coming talent than another dross performance that we've seen so far.
Will Butt? Hamer-Webb? Worboys (I know he played yesterday)
Also is Darren Atkins still injured? I'm sure he did his ACL when Todd was still the DOR.
Will Butt? Hamer-Webb? Worboys (I know he played yesterday)
Also is Darren Atkins still injured? I'm sure he did his ACL when Todd was still the DOR.
With the little cup on the horizon I assume that Will Butt, Hamer-Webb, Worboys and Darren Atkins could get a few minutes.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53
With the little cup on the horizon I assume that Will Butt, Hamer-Webb, Worboys and Darren Atkins could get a few minutes.
1 game against Gloucester
It would be a massive achievement to prevent them from getting a bonus point. I cannot see any way in which that Bath team can possibly beat that Leicester team. We are simply outmatched from 1-23.
It would be a massive achievement to prevent them from getting a bonus point. I cannot see any way in which that Bath team can possibly beat that Leicester team. We are simply outmatched from 1-23.
I am genuinely concerned for the physical safety of the young forwards on the bench. That is simply not a competitive team and if one of them gets seriously injured the club is going to have a lot of questions to answer.
I am genuinely concerned for the physical safety of the young forwards on the bench. That is simply not a competitive team and if one of them gets seriously injured the club is going to have a lot of questions to answer.
Wishing all Bath fans travelling a safe trip.
Looking forward to seeing Richards et al.
Looking forward to seeing Richards et al.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:hemington
Since when did Welford Road become Mattioli Woods. Never seen any trees around the ground.
Billy accounted for twelve of them back in the day.
Pretty disappointing to see this joke not getting more love.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:hemington
Since when did Welford Road become Mattioli Woods. Never seen any trees around the ground.
Billy accounted for twelve of them back in the day.
😂😂
Quote:hasta
Pretty disappointing to see this joke not getting more love.
Thanks for having my back Hasta, the silence was deafening...
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:hasta
Pretty disappointing to see this joke not getting more love.
Thanks for having my back Hasta, the silence was deafening...
It was good, but I didnt know what Mattioli Woods was.
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:BathMatt53Quote:hasta
Pretty disappointing to see this joke not getting more love.
Thanks for having my back Hasta, the silence was deafening...
It was good, but I didnt know what Mattioli Woods was.
Investment management company that sponsors the tiggers!
Quote:malco
Out of interest does anybody know where Johannes Jonker has gone?
He was on the pitch last week and got an injury I think?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:I haven''t seen him listed as injured and wondered if he might have simply been dropped for Verden.BathMatt53Quote:malco
Out of interest does anybody know where Johannes Jonker has gone?
He was on the pitch last week and got an injury I think?
Last I saw was this:
[www.bbc.co.uk]
"We won't have any players back for Leicester and we have picked up two more injuries in Lewis Boyce and Johannes Jonker and obviously we won't have Mike Williams available as he will be banned."
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[www.bbc.co.uk]
"We won't have any players back for Leicester and we have picked up two more injuries in Lewis Boyce and Johannes Jonker and obviously we won't have Mike Williams available as he will be banned."
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:malcoQuote:I haven''t seen him listed as injured and wondered if he might have simply been dropped for Verden.BathMatt53Quote:malco
Out of interest does anybody know where Johannes Jonker has gone?
He was on the pitch last week and got an injury I think?
he was helped off injured.
PG
As I was doing this earlier in the season...
1. Schoemann - 3rd choice
2. Dunn - 1st choice
3. Rae - 3rd choice
4. McNally - 1st choice
5. Richards - 5th choice (albeit to cover 2 positions, so call it 4th)
6. Ellis - 2nd choice
7. De Carpentier - 3rd choise
8. Reid - 4th/5th choice (at 8)
09. Fox - 3rd choice (from before the season started)
10. Cipriani - 1st choice
11. Muir - 1st choice
12. Clarke - 3rd choice (at IC)
13. Joseph - 1st choice
14. Rokoduguni - 5th choice
15. Bailey - 4th/5th choice (at F
So overall, a 2.7th choice XV
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD
1. Schoemann - 3rd choice
2. Dunn - 1st choice
3. Rae - 3rd choice
4. McNally - 1st choice
5. Richards - 5th choice (albeit to cover 2 positions, so call it 4th)
6. Ellis - 2nd choice
7. De Carpentier - 3rd choise
8. Reid - 4th/5th choice (at 8)
09. Fox - 3rd choice (from before the season started)
10. Cipriani - 1st choice
11. Muir - 1st choice
12. Clarke - 3rd choice (at IC)
13. Joseph - 1st choice
14. Rokoduguni - 5th choice
15. Bailey - 4th/5th choice (at F
So overall, a 2.7th choice XV
RAEBURN SHIELD
Nothing to fear, I have it on good authority that we have trained well this week!!!
15 Freddie Burns [82].possibly 3rd choice at fullback
14 Guy Porter [22]......2nd choice
13 Matt Scott [30]...........2nd choice
12 Dan Kelly [25]........2nd choice
11 Nemani Nadolo [22]..............1 st choice
10 George Ford (c) [112]...............1st choice
9 Jack van Poortvliet [26]............3rd choice?
1 Francois van Wyk [4]............2nd choice
2 Nic Dolly [8]..............3rd choice
3 Dan Cole [271]...........1st choice
4 Harry Wells [131]................1st choice
5 Calum Green [66].................2nd choice
6 Ollie Chessum [13]..............3rd choice
7 Tommy Reffell [53].................2nd choice
8 Cyle Brink [17] *..............................2nd choice
REPLACEMENTS
16 Tom Cowan-Dickie [3]................4th choice
17 Nephi Leatigaga [48]...........3rd choice
18 Joe Heyes [77].............................2nd choice
19 Eli Snyman [5]............................4th choice
20 George Martin [22]....................2nd choice
21 Richard Wigglesworth [19].......................2nd choice
22 Bryce Hegarty [1]..............................4rd choice
23 Kini Murimurivalu [25]...............2nd choice
So quite a few missing for us too.
14 Guy Porter [22]......2nd choice
13 Matt Scott [30]...........2nd choice
12 Dan Kelly [25]........2nd choice
11 Nemani Nadolo [22]..............1 st choice
10 George Ford (c) [112]...............1st choice
9 Jack van Poortvliet [26]............3rd choice?
1 Francois van Wyk [4]............2nd choice
2 Nic Dolly [8]..............3rd choice
3 Dan Cole [271]...........1st choice
4 Harry Wells [131]................1st choice
5 Calum Green [66].................2nd choice
6 Ollie Chessum [13]..............3rd choice
7 Tommy Reffell [53].................2nd choice
8 Cyle Brink [17] *..............................2nd choice
REPLACEMENTS
16 Tom Cowan-Dickie [3]................4th choice
17 Nephi Leatigaga [48]...........3rd choice
18 Joe Heyes [77].............................2nd choice
19 Eli Snyman [5]............................4th choice
20 George Martin [22]....................2nd choice
21 Richard Wigglesworth [19].......................2nd choice
22 Bryce Hegarty [1]..............................4rd choice
23 Kini Murimurivalu [25]...............2nd choice
So quite a few missing for us too.
Tigers missing 13
Genge, Steward, Youngs B
Van Staden, Wiese
Montoya, Moroni
Saumaki
Clare, Liebenberg, Potter,Taute
Youngs T
Genge, Steward, Youngs B
Van Staden, Wiese
Montoya, Moroni
Saumaki
Clare, Liebenberg, Potter,Taute
Youngs T
Quote:tigerburnie
15 Freddie Burns [82].possibly 3rd choice at fullback
14 Guy Porter [22]......2nd choice
13 Matt Scott [30]...........2nd choice
12 Dan Kelly [25]........2nd choice
11 Nemani Nadolo [22]..............1 st choice
10 George Ford (c) [112]...............1st choice
9 Jack van Poortvliet [26]............3rd choice?
1 Francois van Wyk [4]............2nd choice
2 Nic Dolly [8]..............3rd choice
3 Dan Cole [271]...........1st choice
4 Harry Wells [131]................1st choice
5 Calum Green [66].................2nd choice
6 Ollie Chessum [13]..............3rd choice
7 Tommy Reffell [53].................2nd choice
8 Cyle Brink [17] *..............................2nd choice
REPLACEMENTS
16 Tom Cowan-Dickie [3]................4th choice
17 Nephi Leatigaga [48]...........3rd choice
18 Joe Heyes [77].............................2nd choice
19 Eli Snyman [5]............................4th choice
20 George Martin [22]....................2nd choice
21 Richard Wigglesworth [19].......................2nd choice
22 Bryce Hegarty [1]..............................4rd choice
23 Kini Murimurivalu [25]...............2nd choice
So quite a few missing for us too.
van Poortiewhatsit isn't 3rd choice scrum half - he's equal first choice with (not so)YBY.
But yes, Tigers have a few out, though are nowhere near as badly hit as Bath.
Which Tyler,
Surprised that you put Bailey as 4th/5th choice FB.
Watson/TDG in front but Bailey played very well at FB for England U20s.
Interested to know who you would have preferred in front of him?
Surprised that you put Bailey as 4th/5th choice FB.
Watson/TDG in front but Bailey played very well at FB for England U20s.
Interested to know who you would have preferred in front of him?
Quote:hemingtonQuote:charlieboa
I just feel its a shame to be brought in for this hiding to nothing for the likes of cordwell, verden, richards, merigan, cowan
I'm sure everyone feels that but what options are there? When should they have been introduced? When we were last winning? Most of them were in short trousers then.
It's a fair point , introducing them into winning team relies upon not always losing.
My general point is i think we lack strategy and anything other than an ultra short term view on selection.
Other clubs trust their squads more which has multiple benefits Inc better depth. Wasps were missing loads on sat, leic are missing loads tomorrow.
After restart we played the same guys into the ground, players like spencer and chudley played every week and green and fox didn't get a sniff. Verden played about 20 mins. Cordwell played about 20 mins last season.
Joe heyes is younger than verden and has 77 games for leic-these aren't kids we are throwing in but they have played next to no rugby. Maybe heyes is just a much better player but he can only of benefitted from actually playing games of rugby... not sure how we expect cordwell and verden to progress if they never play. Obviously lack of utd game an issue and they would have been inked in for prem Cup.
Playing them alongside top senior pros at a time when you have that choice would be my plan personally. This is what hoops claims he does.
The only really really young guy in the 23 is richards at 19. I would have given him some games at 6 this season alongside underhill for example on the back of being eng u20 players player of season. Dont see why merigan didn't get a sniff last week off the bench. I don't really buy this men against boys stuff, there is a huge experience gap though which will be massive issue and why I expect us to get stuffed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:04:20:02:38 by charlieboa.
Quote:tigersimon
Which Tyler,
Surprised that you put Bailey as 4th/5th choice FB.
Watson/TDG in front but Bailey played very well at FB for England U20s.
Interested to know who you would have preferred in front of him?
Personally think rmc is a v v good 15 ... in fact I think he is consistently our best back 3 player but has had lots of niggles this season so far.
Agree, bailey is a decent option at 15.
I think our best chance of getting a bonus point is to repeat the tactics of the Saracens game, let Tigers score as many points unanswered as they wish in the first half, hope they then take off all their best players, relax and we then have the second half to score 4 tries.
Quote:Watson, DeGlanville and Atkins are specialist FBs, and I'd put McConnochie there ahead of Bailey as well.tigersimon
Which Tyler,
Surprised that you put Bailey as 4th/5th choice FB.
Watson/TDG in front but Bailey played very well at FB for England U20s.
Interested to know who you would have preferred in front of him?
Which doesn't make him a bad option, just down the pecking order.
It's also been pointed out that I counted Richards as a 4, whilst being our 5th choice lock (because 2 start), but didn't do the same for Roko, or the same in reverse for DeCarpentier.
Just call me Mr Internally Inconsistent
RAEBURN SHIELD
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:04:21:43:43 by Which Tyler.
Quote:Which Tyler
As I was doing this earlier in the season...
1. Schoemann - 3rd choice
2. Dunn - 1st choice
3. Rae - 3rd choice
4. McNally - 1st choice
5. Richards - 5th choice (albeit to cover 2 positions, so call it 4th)
6. Ellis - 2nd choice
7. De Carpentier - 3rd choise
8. Reid - 4th/5th choice (at 8)
09. Fox - 3rd choice (from before the season started)
10. Cipriani - 1st choice
11. Muir - 1st choice
12. Clarke - 3rd choice (at IC)
13. Joseph - 1st choice
14. Rokoduguni - 5th choice
15. Bailey - 4th/5th choice (at F
So overall, a 2.7th choice XV
In old currency then that is a Spartans side we are putting out
Come on everyone lets stop being so negative about everything to do with Bath. We have a weakened team due to many reason out of anyone's control. They have an incredibly hard job which none of us would last 5 mins in. Its a shame the so called BATH fans on here non stop abuse the team regardless of their performance.
Showing my igorance here, but what was Carpentier's role/position in 7s given he's a forward?
Quote:ollyshep
Come on everyone lets stop being so negative about everything to do with Bath. We have a weakened team due to many reason out of anyone's control. They have an incredibly hard job which none of us would last 5 mins in. Its a shame the so called BATH fans on here non stop abuse the team regardless of their performance.
I don't see any abuse on here whatsoever.
Quote:woodpecker
Showing my igorance here, but what was Carpentier's role/position in 7s given he's a forward?
Think he was a 'prop'/ lineout jumper?
Quote:ollyshep
Come on everyone lets stop being so negative about everything to do with Bath. We have a weakened team due to many reason out of anyone's control. They have an incredibly hard job which none of us would last 5 mins in. Its a shame the so called BATH fans on here non stop abuse the team regardless of their performance.
I appreciate that the comments are somewhat negative at the moment, but this: 'you couldn't do any better' really doesn't work, it effectively means that only people that 'can do better' e.g. saracens players can comment on Bath. They are professional rugby players that fans pay to watch, they are permitted to discuss performance.
Quote:malco
Come on everyone lets stop being so negative about everything to do with Bath. We have a weakened team due to many reason out of anyone's control. They have an incredibly hard job which none of us would last 5 mins in. Its a shame the so called BATH fans on here non stop abuse the team regardless of their performance.
Nonsense, it's regret that we are having to put such a weakend team out away at the top of the league. Every single person on here would love it if there were fewer injuries etc. Pointing that out, and that the bookies has a 20-odd point Tigers win doesn't make anyone on here less of a fan. In fact the receipt from my (and others) STs, shirts and bar tabs at the Rec would indicate that we are all fans, just disgruntled ones who are going to be hiding behind the sofa tonight.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
There are some games when we have said 'too close to call'. On the basis of this season so far we are clearly the underdogs and might be for a while. We are in a bad place against Tigers tonight so how do we approach this?
Confidence only really comes through winning or at least out performing expectations. To do that we need to play to our strengths. If the scrum isn't working, get it out quick, if the catch and drive isn't working then kick the points. If the defence on the line is good then give the backs a chance.
What we don't need is a head in the sand approach where training ground rugby gets continually knocked back.
Leadership, dog in defence, go for territory. Keep the backs switched on for any opportunity.
We are not a complete team so keep it simple, keep Tigers frustrated and review at half time.
Confidence only really comes through winning or at least out performing expectations. To do that we need to play to our strengths. If the scrum isn't working, get it out quick, if the catch and drive isn't working then kick the points. If the defence on the line is good then give the backs a chance.
What we don't need is a head in the sand approach where training ground rugby gets continually knocked back.
Leadership, dog in defence, go for territory. Keep the backs switched on for any opportunity.
We are not a complete team so keep it simple, keep Tigers frustrated and review at half time.
Looking at what’s going on at Bath the game will be over by half time so there won’t be much to review at half time.
Those at Tigers who left under a cloud will be laughing all the way to the post game drink.
Those at Tigers who left under a cloud will be laughing all the way to the post game drink.
As we know upsets do occur in sport, particularly football. This is rare in rugby unless a failing team full of good players suddenly comes to life & the favourites are over confident. The problem is that we have been so far behind the curve in so many ways plus we are bereft of our best players in the forwards. The result, therefore, seems inevitable so I’m not too bothered. I’ll record the match just in case though
Tigers may go in over confident, somehow I cannot see Borthwick allowing that to happen, however players are only human.
Ford maybe called into the England squad given the news about Farrell but to be honest I personally do not worry as much about Tigers backline as their pack.
I am fearful given our performances up front with a full front line 8 this season against weaker packs what will happen against this Tigers pack being roared on by a full Welford Rd and the officials on duty this could be a very long night.
Like Bath Hammer I will record it and decide to watch it after viewing the result from behind a cushion.
I hope that we play with pride and passion and there are no injuries.
Ford maybe called into the England squad given the news about Farrell but to be honest I personally do not worry as much about Tigers backline as their pack.
I am fearful given our performances up front with a full front line 8 this season against weaker packs what will happen against this Tigers pack being roared on by a full Welford Rd and the officials on duty this could be a very long night.
Like Bath Hammer I will record it and decide to watch it after viewing the result from behind a cushion.
I hope that we play with pride and passion and there are no injuries.
Quote:woodpeckerQuote:ollyshep
Come on everyone lets stop being so negative about everything to do with Bath. We have a weakened team due to many reason out of anyone's control. They have an incredibly hard job which none of us would last 5 mins in. Its a shame the so called BATH fans on here non stop abuse the team regardless of their performance.
I appreciate that the comments are somewhat negative at the moment, but this: 'you couldn't do any better' really doesn't work, it effectively means that only people that 'can do better' e.g. saracens players can comment on Bath. They are professional rugby players that fans pay to watch, they are permitted to discuss performance.
my point is its very easy to sit back and criticise everything Bath do, Yes they have made bad mistakes but come on they are humans. I'm sure we all make mistakes in our working life and i think most people have no idea how much pressure and time they commit to the sport. Its fine to discuss performance but not much is constructive. Its very sad to hear fans hiding behind the sofa when watching Bath play or deciding not to turn up. These are the "fans" which will tell everyone how much they LOVE and support Bath.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:malco
Come on everyone lets stop being so negative about everything to do with Bath. We have a weakened team due to many reason out of anyone's control. They have an incredibly hard job which none of us would last 5 mins in. Its a shame the so called BATH fans on here non stop abuse the team regardless of their performance.
Nonsense, it's regret that we are having to put such a weakend team out away at the top of the league. Every single person on here would love it if there were fewer injuries etc. Pointing that out, and that the bookies has a 20-odd point Tigers win doesn't make anyone on here less of a fan. In fact the receipt from my (and others) STs, shirts and bar tabs at the Rec would indicate that we are all fans, just disgruntled ones who are going to be hiding behind the sofa tonight.
The problem is people arent just pointing out that its a shame we have injuries and the betting odds for bath..... People are slating Bath for any and everything. Its silly how Hooper is being slated for picking young players where we have no choice but to pick them due to injuries. I get its not ideal but what other choice do we have? this isn't anything to do with Hooper lying or lack of strategy.
Quote:ollyshepQuote:woodpeckerQuote:ollyshep
Come on everyone lets stop being so negative about everything to do with Bath. We have a weakened team due to many reason out of anyone's control. They have an incredibly hard job which none of us would last 5 mins in. Its a shame the so called BATH fans on here non stop abuse the team regardless of their performance.
I appreciate that the comments are somewhat negative at the moment, but this: 'you couldn't do any better' really doesn't work, it effectively means that only people that 'can do better' e.g. saracens players can comment on Bath. They are professional rugby players that fans pay to watch, they are permitted to discuss performance.
my point is its very easy to sit back and criticise everything Bath do, Yes they have made bad mistakes but come on they are humans. I'm sure we all make mistakes in our working life and i think most people have no idea how much pressure and time they commit to the sport. Its fine to discuss performance but not much is constructive. Its very sad to hear fans hiding behind the sofa when watching Bath play or deciding not to turn up. These are the "fans" which will tell everyone how much they LOVE and support Bath.
Get a grip. I've been watching Bath since 1980. Through thick and thin. Like many on this website I've played to a decent standard myself and also coached and refereed. Part of supporting any sports team, at any level, is wanting them to achieve as much as possible. In the lean periods that becomes even more the case. Supporters criticise because they care. If you presume to turn up and tell a group of well informed supporters what you think they should be allowed to think and say then all you are going to do is find yourself the target for some justified negativity. Supporters criticise because they care. The time to worry is when the team is doing badly and the supporters can't be bothered to criticise any more.
There is a massive difference between constructive criticism and abuse and I see no abuse here.
[quote ollyshep] The problem is people arent just pointing out that its a shame we have injuries and the betting odds for bath..... People are slating Bath for any and everything. Its silly how Hooper is being slated for picking young players where we have no choice but to pick them due to injuries. I get its not ideal but what other choice do we have? this isn't anything to do with Hooper lying or lack of strategy.[/quote]ith Hooper lying or lack of strategy.[/quote]
Yes, Bath have no choice to play the squad that they have because of injuries. Unfortunately in some cases they didn't get the exposure that they should have in previous seasons (some were too young for this). But, we are where we are.
[quote ollyshep] Its fine to discuss performance but not much is constructive. Its very sad to hear fans hiding behind the sofa when watching Bath play or deciding not to turn up. These are the "fans" which will tell everyone how much they LOVE and support Bath.[/quote]
They are fans not 'fans' - in fact its the very fact that we have follwed Bath for so long that we aren't enjoying watching them get thumped so far this season and are not looking forward to watching them get thumped tonight either. So, sorry on behalf of those (including me) who will be peeking at the screen through our fingers. Agree that its a sorry state of affairs.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Yes, Bath have no choice to play the squad that they have because of injuries. Unfortunately in some cases they didn't get the exposure that they should have in previous seasons (some were too young for this). But, we are where we are.
[quote ollyshep] Its fine to discuss performance but not much is constructive. Its very sad to hear fans hiding behind the sofa when watching Bath play or deciding not to turn up. These are the "fans" which will tell everyone how much they LOVE and support Bath.[/quote]
They are fans not 'fans' - in fact its the very fact that we have follwed Bath for so long that we aren't enjoying watching them get thumped so far this season and are not looking forward to watching them get thumped tonight either. So, sorry on behalf of those (including me) who will be peeking at the screen through our fingers. Agree that its a sorry state of affairs.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I've always been jealous of these Doctor Who fans and Bath fans who can hide behind their sofas, ive never had a big enough house to get behind my sofa, its always rammed up against the wall.
I think Ollyshep is right to have his view - the opposite to most on this forum . To start replies with: 'Nonsense' and 'Get a grip' will just encourage people with opposing views to keep quiet or leave - is that what we want/ Can't we be civil?
Can anyone remember the day that Bath went to Welford Road, having lost there for many years, and returned with an 11-12 win? They had gone with a scratch side then, with I think , Chris Smith the A team skipper at hooker. Gordon Drewett kicked four penalty goals to win the match. Jack Simpkins, whom I believe was the club secretary then, refused to believe it when the result was first phoned through.
Quote:hemington
I think Ollyshep is right to have his view - the opposite to most on this forum . To start replies with: 'Nonsense' and 'Get a grip' will just encourage people with opposing views to keep quiet or leave - is that what we want/ Can't we be civil?
I didn't think that me thinking that the view was nonsense was particularly crossing the line...and Ollyshep is quite within his rights to also think my view is nonsense as far as I am concerned. However, Ollyshep I apologise if I caused offence.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I’m also a long standing Bath supporter and always try to keep my posts civil. Try starting your post with I disagree or I don’t think the same way you do. It’s not what you say it’s the way that you say it. Nonsense and get a grip suggests that the post is totally wrong not just a different opinion to your own. I do agree that this board has been a constant stream of negativity and to some that may appear as Bath bad the rest good. Primarily that is a reflection of recent results, but it does get very wearing and may give the view that any light at the end of the tunnel is a total illusion.
Well I guess we are approaching the time when the talking stops, I was more confident of beating Northampton away last week for some odd reason, you see no one like the Sinners, but Borths just might have a soft spot for his old club? Here's hoping the pre match chat will be of the same script as last weeks.
Borths have a soft spot - .........................................for goodness sake.
No chance!
No chance!
Quote:tigerburnie
Well I guess we are approaching the time when the talking stops, I was more confident of beating Northampton away last week for some odd reason, you see no one like the Sinners, but Borths just might have a soft spot for his old club? Here's hoping the pre match chat will be of the same script as last weeks.
Hi might have a soft spot for the city, maybe the supporters and even the odd player but I suspect he will not show it and will gain some enjoyment from putting us away.
As for George, like Borthwick a total professional, he will surely enjoy sticking it to Bath.
Quote:SimW
This is all beginning to sound like the Two Ronnies and John Cleese sketch.
More like Benny Hill !!!
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
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"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
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I get the impression ollyshep is none too happy with some of my comments.
For context I have been supporting/following/watching bath since 1983 when I was 4.That's lots thick and then a lot of thin so am fairly philosophical and generally pretty upbeat no matter how bad we are.
My criticisms are v niche about lack of strategy in selection. I absolutely understand why we have named tonight's squad, there is no option.
My only point is there are some players who could have 10-15 games by now and another few who could have 5-10. Those games could have been chosen to give them a fighting chance. Instead they have basically no experience between them and are being thrown in en masse in a ropey team against a strong team, away from home, against an in form team. I have noted the lack of utd and prem cups is an unfortunate contributing factor out of our control.
That's the opposite of what hoops says he wants- that's not acusing him of being a dirty rotten liar , that's just pointing out there's discord between his rhetoric and the practice. As I say I I still broadly a hoops supporter and am excited to see how they go this eve. Our academy is a strength of the club so never upset to see its members ans grads getting chances.
I have in fairness stated where players have been managed well. I think tdg was brought along on the coaches timeline sensibly. Staddon got some games in decent teams last season cos he is a great prospect not just cos we were desperate.
For context I have been supporting/following/watching bath since 1983 when I was 4.That's lots thick and then a lot of thin so am fairly philosophical and generally pretty upbeat no matter how bad we are.
My criticisms are v niche about lack of strategy in selection. I absolutely understand why we have named tonight's squad, there is no option.
My only point is there are some players who could have 10-15 games by now and another few who could have 5-10. Those games could have been chosen to give them a fighting chance. Instead they have basically no experience between them and are being thrown in en masse in a ropey team against a strong team, away from home, against an in form team. I have noted the lack of utd and prem cups is an unfortunate contributing factor out of our control.
That's the opposite of what hoops says he wants- that's not acusing him of being a dirty rotten liar , that's just pointing out there's discord between his rhetoric and the practice. As I say I I still broadly a hoops supporter and am excited to see how they go this eve. Our academy is a strength of the club so never upset to see its members ans grads getting chances.
I have in fairness stated where players have been managed well. I think tdg was brought along on the coaches timeline sensibly. Staddon got some games in decent teams last season cos he is a great prospect not just cos we were desperate.
I’m having issues with BT is that just a local issue cuts out about every 15 seconds?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:19:34:03 by Woodpecker .
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:19:34:03 by Woodpecker .
Quote:Woodpecker
I’m having issues with BT is that just a local issue cuts out about every 15 seconds?
Lucky you!
Great try from us…
… but we’re so incredibly dumb with our discipline. Not sure if can blame the coaches. The number of stupid penalties we’re giving away this season is, amongst other things, killing us.
… but we’re so incredibly dumb with our discipline. Not sure if can blame the coaches. The number of stupid penalties we’re giving away this season is, amongst other things, killing us.
Well that yellow card could have gone worse. Our lineout is a disaster though.
Our put in. 30 yds out. They’re down to 14. 60 seconds to HT… we go early and give away a free kick, which is a repeat offence, so becomes a penalty.
Sigh/shoot me now. Sums up our idiocy.
Sigh/shoot me now. Sums up our idiocy.
I thought Muir's yellow was harsh - he was set for the tackle.
Dumb penalty from tom ellis, and a second penalty and Leicester had gone 80 metres for a try.
Last scrum penalty was clearly Tigers (Dan Cole) stepping back, luck to escape.
Tigers have got away with a least 4 crooked throws.
Just about in the game, but the benches will turn it against us.
Dumb penalty from tom ellis, and a second penalty and Leicester had gone 80 metres for a try.
Last scrum penalty was clearly Tigers (Dan Cole) stepping back, luck to escape.
Tigers have got away with a least 4 crooked throws.
Just about in the game, but the benches will turn it against us.
The young guys are doing us proud. We won’t win but the future is brighter than where we are now.
So far it’s not as bad as I expected. I can see the attack coach’s influence
Tigers getting the 50/50 calls.
No commentary on at my local club so getting one eyed with no help from the pundits.
No commentary on at my local club so getting one eyed with no help from the pundits.
The 19yr old lock Richards is going well as are Bath at h/time. I was expecting to be down and out by now but am now thinking perhaps not. Can we do this? Can DC perform miracles?
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My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Very impressed with young Bailey, watched him a few times now, he has a big future.
Bailey has been rock solid at 15 both in the air and making tackles. Really love what I've seen from him this season.
Aaaaaagh. What a stupid start to the half. Our maul defence is appalling. We keep coming in the side.
Mess up the restart. Dumb penalty against. 3 pts Leicester.
It. Is. Maddening.
It. Is. Maddening.
Youngsters look ok, but wish the players would concentrate on rugby instead of stupid haircuts!!
It’s the hope that kills you.
3 minutes of good rugby from us and a try… Leicester go up the other end and, inevitably, score.
Youngsters doing well but I just can’t see us competing with any pack in the league.
3 minutes of good rugby from us and a try… Leicester go up the other end and, inevitably, score.
Youngsters doing well but I just can’t see us competing with any pack in the league.
Under constant pressure at lineout but - so predictable.
Tigers throw in crooked, ref’s arm goes up for penalty against Bath!
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:21:14:23 by P G Tips.
Tigers throw in crooked, ref’s arm goes up for penalty against Bath!
PG
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:21:14:23 by P G Tips.
Credit where it's due, our maul defence has got better, but really feels like we're living on borrowed time.
Must say, and we’ll still more than likely going to get nothing from this, the youngsters have been full of heart. Considering the number we’ve got unavailable, this hasn’t been all bad.
Sad state of affairs, mind, that “hasn’t been all bad” is a good report.
Sad state of affairs, mind, that “hasn’t been all bad” is a good report.
It’s bizarre that Green doesn’t get any game time. Is Fox that much better?
The number of crooked Tigers throws has been ridiculous.
Looking tired, but the young guns have done brilliantly.
Looking tired, but the young guns have done brilliantly.
The team really don't deserve that.
Dumb by Verden, really dumb.
No way were Tigers 17 points better than Bath tonight.
Dumb by Verden, really dumb.
No way were Tigers 17 points better than Bath tonight.
Siiiigh.
I don't mind losing when we're so down on players. But we've lost this so much down to individual player stupidity.
I don't mind losing when we're so down on players. But we've lost this so much down to individual player stupidity.
Quote:Dorset Boy
The number of crooked Tigers throws has been ridiculous.
Looking tired, but the young guns have done brilliantly.
Summed up by Carley saying “Bath 7 jumping across”” as replay showed Chips in contact with the ball.
If he had to jimp across to get to the ball - guess what? It wasn’t straight!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Yes, the youngsters did alright and we didn’t roll over. But we’ve played 7 and we’ve lost 7 and we are, by far, IMHO, the worst side in the league and, with little comparison, the worst Bath side I’ve watched in 35 years.
The embarrassment continues and the same old nonsense will be trotted out by the same coaches about frustrations/ inaccuracies/ focusing on the positives etc.
Decent young rugby players but a terribly coached team. How many do we have to lose before someone decides that this isn’t working?
The embarrassment continues and the same old nonsense will be trotted out by the same coaches about frustrations/ inaccuracies/ focusing on the positives etc.
Decent young rugby players but a terribly coached team. How many do we have to lose before someone decides that this isn’t working?
I actually enjoyed the game. I don't know why Cordwell is in the squad if he can't be trusted to come on when theres nothing to lose.
Quote:+1 When as a coaching team you are struggling( and poss out of your depth) imagine how much this hurts, many positives from the youngsters wiped out by individual mistakes(penalties) conceded by individuals desperately trying too hard to do their best for the team.hasta
Siiiigh.
I don't mind losing when we're so down on players. But we've lost this so much down to individual player stupidity.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:21:54:22 by Long Term.
True, hasta. Just think they need to act quick/quicker as watching this same aimless misery week after week is making me not want to watch anymore!
The last 5 minutes pretty much encapsulated where Bath are, and have been for 4 years. Lots of heart from the young players but let down by the most stupid of actions like Verden’s yellow.
The coaches are not instilling discipline and should drop players when they are so stupid. Hooper is using this season when there is no relegation to build a young team, so why not use it to instil discipline?
Cipriani is a yesterdays man (but experienced)who should have taken control of the players otherwise why have they signed him if not to mentor?
There has been something wrong at Bath for some time to get us where we are. Bruce Craig promised many things when he arrived, not least a new stadium by 2015. That hasn’t materialised neither has any upward movement in the on field fortunes of the club. Nothing will change until radical changes are
made from the top down!!!
The coaches are not instilling discipline and should drop players when they are so stupid. Hooper is using this season when there is no relegation to build a young team, so why not use it to instil discipline?
Cipriani is a yesterdays man (but experienced)who should have taken control of the players otherwise why have they signed him if not to mentor?
There has been something wrong at Bath for some time to get us where we are. Bruce Craig promised many things when he arrived, not least a new stadium by 2015. That hasn’t materialised neither has any upward movement in the on field fortunes of the club. Nothing will change until radical changes are
made from the top down!!!
Another 40 points conceded another big loss, whatever your thoughts cannot hide or disguise the real truth or bury your head in the sand.
Well you made that difficult for us, I said I had a bad feeling about this game, luckily our replacements saved our blushes, good luck going forwards.
Some positives but our stupidity is almost off the scale- loads of daft pens for no reason under no pressure. Bizarre
Hats off to some of the guys there esp the youngsters
Hats off to some of the guys there esp the youngsters
You wonder how this team would cope in the Championship if there was relegation. They would certainly find it difficult to get back.
For what little it's worth, for your bare bones that was not too bad. I actually like Hoops, which is probably not what you want to hear from the oppo after you've lost. There is some good gear going on, but something needs to change. It may be getting rid of your coaches, but I'll feel sorry for Hoops if that happens.
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
_____________________________________________
The lowest depth to which people can sink before God is defined by the word 'journalist'.
Soren Kierkegaard
Quote:by
I actually enjoyed the game. I don't know why Cordwell is in the squad if he can't be trusted to come on when theres nothing to lose.
Indeed. Mind you verdens cameo wasn't great. Probably months and months and months of not getting a look in I guess
Quote:Your choice! come back when we're winning.dr.bath1865
True, hasta. Just think they need to act quick/quicker as watching this same aimless misery week after week is making me not want to watch anymore!
Bailey an£ McNally very good. Decent shift from Muir and Clarke, but overall never felt that a win was within our grasp.
Rae and Schoeman did really well I thought. Dunn showing some better form. Didn’t understand why Ellis went off so early. I was not expecting to be in the game with 15 mins to go, so kind of happy….but actually think Tigs didn’t play their best stuff. We lacked ball carriers to win the gain line.
Cipriani’s pass to Dunn which made the first try was the best thing he’s done in a Bath shirt…but not much else from him.
Cipriani’s pass to Dunn which made the first try was the best thing he’s done in a Bath shirt…but not much else from him.
Be proud, you gave us a good game tonight.
Some good performances Richards and Bailey.
I feel you are like Tigers 2 years ago and lacking on field leadership.
Senior players Dunn, Cipriani, Joseph need to be stepping up and are not!
Feel if Hooper is given a chance and some help he could take the club forward.
Not sure what the Griffiths review offers? At least when Tigers did it they bought in old boy Pat Howard.
Some good performances Richards and Bailey.
I feel you are like Tigers 2 years ago and lacking on field leadership.
Senior players Dunn, Cipriani, Joseph need to be stepping up and are not!
Feel if Hooper is given a chance and some help he could take the club forward.
Not sure what the Griffiths review offers? At least when Tigers did it they bought in old boy Pat Howard.
I think we really needed that try just before half time, some refs would have given it. Tigers didn't look that confident at times and relied on our mistakes.
We have some good players but that yellow at the end was very poor. Gave Tigers a BP and on another day could have decided a game.
We have some good players but that yellow at the end was very poor. Gave Tigers a BP and on another day could have decided a game.
Quote:malco
I am genuinely concerned for the physical safety of the young forwards on the bench. That is simply not a competitive team and if one of them gets seriously injured the club is going to have a lot of questions to answer.
One stood up to the onslaught pretty well, one saved a likely try and another got a yellow card for a late tackle.
What that means in fatigue terms, and for the Prem Cup games coming up remains to be seen, but I thought the young lads, both starters and bench, did their future cause no harm.
There are clearly big structural, technical and cultural problems, but those youngsters will believe that they can cope with Premiership level rugby.
PG
Quote:charlieboaQuote:by
I actually enjoyed the game. I don't know why Cordwell is in the squad if he can't be trusted to come on when theres nothing to lose.
Indeed. Mind you verdens cameo wasn't great. Probably months and months and months of not getting a look in I guess
I think we need a bit combativeness in the team and Wigglesworth probably deserved it.
Ben Kay's right, we need to focus on simple rugby. I've said previously that we've jumped the gun on deploying this attractive fast attacking rugby, we just don't have enough depth in our squad.
From the first game this season we lost Spencer and Cipriani, the two key guys who will be driving the gameplan built in preseason, I didn't expect no wins but it was a big warning sign of what was to come. Since then we've lost more and more key players, we're left in a state where we've got no ball carriers, and our backline are constantly playing from the backfoot. Defence and kick chase requires nothing but hard work, you don't need expensive players and flashy plays, our league position clearly reflects how well those two aspects of our game are going. Ultimately thats where I think things have gone wrong, we've lost our ability to play the game we want and we don't have a good enough foundation to fall back on.
I'm still behind Hooper and Hatley, I'm sure they can turn it around.
I think that that was a spirited fight against the top team in the premiership. Bath are essentially a championship side and with the mediocre waste of space Hooper on his low salary we did brilliantly.. Well done Bath!
Unsurprisingly a defeat and, as most predicted, no points to take for consolation. Not quite the humiliation though that many had predicted. That I think was down to spirit, some real defiance from the front row (who deservedly won some scrum penalties) and flashes of individual skill.
Given that Bath were within grasp of a losing bonus with 10 minutes to go, there can be little questioning the heart of the players who took the field.
That was a Leicester performance of the old school - early 2000s for example. Current laws and refereeing practice exaggerate that sort of dominance and Bath need to get much more streetwise to counter it.
As Ben Kay suggested, they should focus on a few simple things to do much better than other teams and build from there.
That was the stated aim three seasons ago- the Griffiths review has much to do. When he presents his findings, I hope for radical changes.
PG
Given that Bath were within grasp of a losing bonus with 10 minutes to go, there can be little questioning the heart of the players who took the field.
That was a Leicester performance of the old school - early 2000s for example. Current laws and refereeing practice exaggerate that sort of dominance and Bath need to get much more streetwise to counter it.
As Ben Kay suggested, they should focus on a few simple things to do much better than other teams and build from there.
That was the stated aim three seasons ago- the Griffiths review has much to do. When he presents his findings, I hope for radical changes.
PG
Very proud of the youngsters coming through! Apart from the stupidity of Verden who was only on for a fewminutes we would have lost but denied the league leaders a try bonus. Plenty to take heart in but plenty to sort out. Our discipline is insane, we really need someone to grasp the task of getting the players to stop giving away pens especially in the red zone. It was an enjoyable game (apart from the result) and we were there or thereabouts if it weren’t for the silly pens and the rub of the green.
We need to now take stock with this consultation and act accordingly. Yes it is a coaching issue but It is fixable without wholesale culling.
We need to now take stock with this consultation and act accordingly. Yes it is a coaching issue but It is fixable without wholesale culling.
0-7
Fed up with reading about how great the future looks.
0-7 people, pro players, coaches being paid very well to play rugby. It's not good enough. If this continues those promising players will be snapped up but better, more focused teams.
Hooper out.
Got ahead of myself there, but probably will be 0-8 soon.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:22:53:46 by Bath Blues.
Fed up with reading about how great the future looks.
0-7 people, pro players, coaches being paid very well to play rugby. It's not good enough. If this continues those promising players will be snapped up but better, more focused teams.
Hooper out.
Got ahead of myself there, but probably will be 0-8 soon.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:05:22:53:46 by Bath Blues.
Quote:by
... From the first game this season we lost Spencer and Cipriani, the two key guys who will be driving the gameplan built in preseason...
Sorry, I don't see Cips as the 'Messiah' (not that he's a very naughty boy either!).
I am more than happy for him to just mentor OB on the training field and be a backup - for me, OB is out-performing him in all aspects so far this season... even tackling!
Just keep building OB a-la Cips Mk2 and I am content...
Adopted Players: All of the little blighters!!!
Proper old game of rugby that. Decent scrapping by Bath, and Orlando Bailey was just outstanding. Cips - 2 pretty drippy moments but probably in credit tonight. Ellis, Read, Dunn, McNally very good.
Just watched the game. Respectability on the scoreboard and competitiveness on the pitch, I suppose. I thought the yooth showed up well and were not out played although Tigs clearly not at full throttle. Our ability to give away bone-headed penalties is just insane. I'd ask "what were they thinking?" but they clearly weren't and that is a huge failure of coaching. Verden (to pick a particularly egregious example) will presumably learn but until we have enough self control on the pitch to make good decisions in those circumstances, we will continue to lose because the oppo will just let us hand them an escape route.
I would not start Cipriani ahead of OB2 from now on. OB2 showed more in the approximately 3 touches he had on the ball than Cips did all game. If we are going to give the young guys their head, then commit. This seasons a goner anyway.
But it's still 0 - 7 and a long way to a win.
MotM - Josh Macnally.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:06:03:11:28 by joethefanatic.
I would not start Cipriani ahead of OB2 from now on. OB2 showed more in the approximately 3 touches he had on the ball than Cips did all game. If we are going to give the young guys their head, then commit. This seasons a goner anyway.
But it's still 0 - 7 and a long way to a win.
MotM - Josh Macnally.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:06:03:11:28 by joethefanatic.
[www.rugby-addict.com]
Scores on the board.
Broadly agree - 5/6/7s fair enough.
Bit harsh on schoeman and rae. I thought they more than held their own at set piece and put v long shifts in. I have been critical of schoemans scrummaging but a few times this season he has gone well- had a 19 Yr old lock behind him aswell so good effort for a third choicer.
Wonder if EG has insisted on getting hats closer to scrummaging , if not fair play lils. Must keep improving to back it up though.
Just watched hats interview- Nice balance of calling out the stupidity/naivety but giving some young guys a pat on the back.
I will never ever be happy with a 17 pt loss to leic but it could have gone a lot worse but we must get better fast. 3 wks til next league game and would expect to have 7/8 options back so that excuse goes away. Enjoyed borths barbed comment before the game on that topic..
Scores on the board.
Broadly agree - 5/6/7s fair enough.
Bit harsh on schoeman and rae. I thought they more than held their own at set piece and put v long shifts in. I have been critical of schoemans scrummaging but a few times this season he has gone well- had a 19 Yr old lock behind him aswell so good effort for a third choicer.
Wonder if EG has insisted on getting hats closer to scrummaging , if not fair play lils. Must keep improving to back it up though.
Just watched hats interview- Nice balance of calling out the stupidity/naivety but giving some young guys a pat on the back.
I will never ever be happy with a 17 pt loss to leic but it could have gone a lot worse but we must get better fast. 3 wks til next league game and would expect to have 7/8 options back so that excuse goes away. Enjoyed borths barbed comment before the game on that topic..
Against my better judgement I watched the second half and thought the score flattered Bath. Totally one sided and Bath offered little other than a string of stupid penalties. Probably spent less than 5 mins in Tigers half.
If this result and the table doesn’t get Hooper shown the door then nothing will. When you have opposing team fans feeling sorry for you and saying Hooper should stay you know things are wrong.
If this result and the table doesn’t get Hooper shown the door then nothing will. When you have opposing team fans feeling sorry for you and saying Hooper should stay you know things are wrong.
Quote:OutsideBath
Against my better judgement I watched the second half and thought the score flattered Bath. Totally one sided and Bath offered little other than a string of stupid penalties. Probably spent less than 5 mins in Tigers half.
If this result and the table doesn’t get Hooper shown the door then nothing will. When you have opposing team fans feeling sorry for you and saying Hooper should stay you know things are wrong.
I don't think you can comment without watching the full match, you missed some key moments - an early yellow card, a great try, a disallowed try that would have meant going in level at HT, scrum penalties to us.
Go and do your homework.
Tigers fan in peace. Thought Bath were much better than I expected after reading the comments on your message board after the team selection. When you get some of your injured players back things will improve markedly . Bath scrapped for everything but missed some cool heads when the pressure came on. We were in a much worst place not long ago so keep the faith and support your team. I hope to get to Bath for the return match.
Shock horror Top of table team beat bottom of the table team.
For what it's worth my observations would be:
Too many penalties - but is that a reflection of where we are and players trying too hard (I'd be interested to see if there is a correlation between penalties given away and table position. Also do pens follow poor performance or vice versa).
Cipriani is not the messiah but I thought he improved as game went on (not difficult) and to be fair he is only a few games into it after a very long lay off. Most players take a long time to reach their best form after a layoff(e.g. Coko, Faletau etc.).
Bailey is a star.
Did I see Wigglesworth on the field coaching Nandolo in first half - how does that work.
Maul defence requires a bit of work!
Our scrum held their own if not better than theirs - and not many of us were expecting that.
Attack is getting better but still a long way to go. Mojo was hardly seen once he came on.
Not a win but a lot better than most on ere were predicting.
Hopefully we can get some more players back and as we are playing some of the lower placed teams we can start getting some confidence. Even better if Ed can find other areas to improve.
For what it's worth my observations would be:
Too many penalties - but is that a reflection of where we are and players trying too hard (I'd be interested to see if there is a correlation between penalties given away and table position. Also do pens follow poor performance or vice versa).
Cipriani is not the messiah but I thought he improved as game went on (not difficult) and to be fair he is only a few games into it after a very long lay off. Most players take a long time to reach their best form after a layoff(e.g. Coko, Faletau etc.).
Bailey is a star.
Did I see Wigglesworth on the field coaching Nandolo in first half - how does that work.
Maul defence requires a bit of work!
Our scrum held their own if not better than theirs - and not many of us were expecting that.
Attack is getting better but still a long way to go. Mojo was hardly seen once he came on.
Not a win but a lot better than most on ere were predicting.
Hopefully we can get some more players back and as we are playing some of the lower placed teams we can start getting some confidence. Even better if Ed can find other areas to improve.
I think the penalties do reflect where we are and players trying too hard (if you want to be charitable, Verden's mistimed tackle could be explained as " too fired up and eager").
I think they also show a subconscious tendency to penalise the defending side more than the attacking side. Dallaglio hinted at something similar when he explained Bristol's final try against us at Ashton Gate. Healy claimed the maul was illegally set and Dallaglio said -"Yes, but the ref had already decided Bath would infringe as they had before."
IMHO refs see defensive offences more readily than ones that aid the attack.
PG
I think they also show a subconscious tendency to penalise the defending side more than the attacking side. Dallaglio hinted at something similar when he explained Bristol's final try against us at Ashton Gate. Healy claimed the maul was illegally set and Dallaglio said -"Yes, but the ref had already decided Bath would infringe as they had before."
IMHO refs see defensive offences more readily than ones that aid the attack.
PG
I think they do & this should be curbed as it unfairly enhances the difficulty of defending, especially against superior teams. Referees should observe the rules & not employ pre-conceived notions. This makes it even harder for a team like Bath to get out of the situation they find themselves in. We seem to have suffered disproportionate from erroneous/unfair refereeing decisions in recent weeks. We might well have lost all these matches anyway, except Bristol, but that’s not the point.
Quote:B4thB4ckQuote:OutsideBath
Against my better judgement I watched the second half and thought the score flattered Bath. Totally one sided and Bath offered little other than a string of stupid penalties. Probably spent less than 5 mins in Tigers half.
If this result and the table doesn’t get Hooper shown the door then nothing will. When you have opposing team fans feeling sorry for you and saying Hooper should stay you know things are wrong.
I don't think you can comment without watching the full match, you missed some key moments - an early yellow card, a great try, a disallowed try that would have meant going in level at HT, scrum penalties to us.
Go and do your homework.
No need for the pompous comment, you know full well the comment relates to the second half where in my opinion (I trust you do permit opinions that differ from yours?) Bath offered nothing but effort.
As for the first half we lost it so that’s all that matters.
Quote:Bath Hammer
I think they do & this should be curbed as it unfairly enhances the difficulty of defending, especially against superior teams. Referees should observe the rules & not employ pre-conceived notions. This makes it even harder for a team like Bath to get out of the situation they find themselves in. We seem to have suffered disproportionate from erroneous/unfair refereeing decisions in recent weeks. We might well have lost all these matches anyway, except Bristol, but that’s not the point.
I am glad somebody agrees with me BH- I feared i was a lone voice for a while!
This affects other teams as well of course (I seem to recall Worcester's DOR making the point last year that struggling teams were disproportionately penalised), but as you say we seem to have been particularly affected recently. As I observed during the match- Tigers throw in crooked to lineout, penalty to Tigers. Last week Wasps won penalties from scrums they wheeled, Bristol's loosehead was boring in at every scrum when we played them, yet it was Bath who were most penalised at that phase.
These things mount up and, because of the erroneous perception they create, become a vicious spiral.
PG
Tigers have re-found our identity and started with small steps, blooding youngsters in away games and trying to build up a siege mentality at home, we spent last season putting this side together, it ain't going to change over night. We rode some luck last night, but put on enough pressure to create problems, had we taken more of the chances the score could have been different, I don't feel sorry for other sides, I respect them as adversaries, that's how I played the game. I knew there was a lot of history between our two clubs and I knew your side would not lay down, I didn't think for a minute your lads would roll over. We had to do a lot of deep thinking and a lot of changes were made, a plan was put in place, some didn't want to be part of that plan and left some were let go, but change had to happen as we had not evolved, we had stagnated and others swept past us. Were it not for one win against Newcastle we would have been relegated and to be honest, we would have deserved it.
Can't think of anything nice to say so saying nothing. Reams and reams of explanations from several well known apologists do not explain the low standards - who are you kidding?
Ed Griffiths is not "the Messiah" and probably won't be allowed to be even if he was.
Ed Griffiths is not "the Messiah" and probably won't be allowed to be even if he was.
I recommend watching the game and just admiring the young talent if the club management is causing so much angst.
'Well known apologists' or just optimists? I don't mind appearing naive but I remain hopeful as there is a lot of young talent coming through and surely the changes needed to make huge improvements aren't beyond the wit of the management to implement, especially if they've launched a review to identify the blatantly obvious...
1. 3 suitably big , hard front 5 forwards to sort out the scrum
2. Hats back to forwards coach (If he'll accept the demotion)
3. Defensive coach brought in
4. New head coach, even if we have to wait until the end of the year to get him.
5. More vocal, demanding captain-Ewels seems to be too quiet and 'nice' for want of a better word.
People claim this is the worst Bath side they can remember. They're frustrating to watch and I know winning is nearly everything, but we had a few seasons flirting with relegation where we went games without scoring a single try. I know Bath is synonymous with false dawns - The club laughably released a dvd years back called 'On the brink', as in highlights of a season when we nearly won something- but at least we have creative talent in the team and a willingness to try and be positive. We lack the foundations provided by a solid pack, but if that can be addressed there's cause for some optimism I feel...
1. 3 suitably big , hard front 5 forwards to sort out the scrum
2. Hats back to forwards coach (If he'll accept the demotion)
3. Defensive coach brought in
4. New head coach, even if we have to wait until the end of the year to get him.
5. More vocal, demanding captain-Ewels seems to be too quiet and 'nice' for want of a better word.
People claim this is the worst Bath side they can remember. They're frustrating to watch and I know winning is nearly everything, but we had a few seasons flirting with relegation where we went games without scoring a single try. I know Bath is synonymous with false dawns - The club laughably released a dvd years back called 'On the brink', as in highlights of a season when we nearly won something- but at least we have creative talent in the team and a willingness to try and be positive. We lack the foundations provided by a solid pack, but if that can be addressed there's cause for some optimism I feel...
Quote:annie blackthorn
Can't think of anything nice to say so saying nothing. Reams and reams of explanations from several well known apologists do not explain the low standards - who are you kidding?
Ed Griffiths is not "the Messiah" and probably won't be allowed to be even if he was.
How is anything after your first sentence saying nothing.
I’m similarly confused by posters who have only watched half the game saying that they were only commenting on the second half and then making a comment on the first half.
I watched all the game not that good not that bad. Given the team we put out against Leicester away in isolation of other results we would be disappointed because we were in it for a long time and gave away silly penalties. Their bench was better than ours as has been true in most games.
I agree that referees have a tendency to make assumptions on how a team will defend sometimes even to the point of not giving them time to offend before signalling penalties. This is very evident
In the “he is isolated he is going to hold on” scenario.
What is a bit sad / worrying is that I find myself not too displeased with a 40-23 loss.
With Exeter next up in the Premiership, anyone know what the all time worst start to a season in the professional era actually is? (London Welsh had beaten Sale Sharks by now in 2012).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
With Exeter next up in the Premiership, anyone know what the all time worst start to a season in the professional era actually is? (London Welsh had beaten Sale Sharks by now in 2012).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
It never felt like we would put 50 past you or have an easy ride before the game and so it turned out. Your team played with heart and could have come away with something if some close calls had gone your way. Can’t be easy to have lost 7 but it felt like a competitive game so you’re not far away.
We’ve benefitted from playing young players even at the cost of some big losses because they know what to expect now and what level of training and focus is required.
I think the 17 point gap flatters us and without the red mist at the end we wouldn’t have got the BP.
We’ve benefitted from playing young players even at the cost of some big losses because they know what to expect now and what level of training and focus is required.
I think the 17 point gap flatters us and without the red mist at the end we wouldn’t have got the BP.
As a neutral I enjoyed the game and had a few decisions gone your way you could have had a decent lead going into the second half.
I also thought that some of Cips kicking was right on the money - no need to panic yet
I also thought that some of Cips kicking was right on the money - no need to panic yet
I don't think we ever quite believed we w(c)ould win, even when within 3 points a couple of times, which is what a string of defeats does to a team. Had the scores at those points been reversed, Tigers would have believed they would win.
Undoubtedly the 50:50 decisions go against the sides at the bottom which makes the climb out of the hole that much harder, and we've been on the wrong end of more than our fair share of just plain bad decisions so far this season.
However, we really don't help ourselves with some really dumb penalties, such as Tom Ellis's and Verden's for example.
There were a lot of positives from the young guns last night, but due to the run of defeats there just isn't the collective belief needed to win at the moment. I don't know how you change that, other than getting a few favourable calls and lucky bounces of the ball.
Undoubtedly the 50:50 decisions go against the sides at the bottom which makes the climb out of the hole that much harder, and we've been on the wrong end of more than our fair share of just plain bad decisions so far this season.
However, we really don't help ourselves with some really dumb penalties, such as Tom Ellis's and Verden's for example.
There were a lot of positives from the young guns last night, but due to the run of defeats there just isn't the collective belief needed to win at the moment. I don't know how you change that, other than getting a few favourable calls and lucky bounces of the ball.
Self belief can come from something as simple (and unexpected) as an "Elvis" moment!
PG
PG
On the underdog getting penalised more than the favourite, we see that all the time when the Tier 1 nations play the Tier 2/3 nations too.
Quote:Dorset Boy
On the underdog getting penalised more than the favourite, we see that all the time when the Tier 1 nations play the Tier 2/3 nations too.
Happens in all sports, when a team is poor the marginal decisions always seem to go against them along with the bounce of the ball.
In Bath’s case the only way to change this is to remove Hooper from his post, get a DOR in with experience and let him make the decision on the other coaches.
Getting rid of a failing DOR worked for Quins, it worked for Tigers so why wouldn’t it work for Bath?
Quote:Dorset Boy
On the underdog getting penalised more than the favourite, we see that all the time when the Tier 1 nations play the Tier 2/3 nations too.
And to prove the point, Tonga 14 gets a yellow for a deliberate knock on when he clearly knocked it up. Penalty maybe, yellow? Not in a million years, but the big team always gets the call.
Anyone notice any injuries on fri other than failed hia for roko?
Assume ellis was maybe struggling a little with the injury he came into the game with hence going off pretty early.
Any idea what the issue was with clark? Looked like a heavy/uncomfortable fall on the kick chase but didn't seem obvious what the injury was.
That's a v decent injury result if so. Used to players getting season ending injuries!
A few weeks for players to get themselves sorted now...
Assume ellis was maybe struggling a little with the injury he came into the game with hence going off pretty early.
Any idea what the issue was with clark? Looked like a heavy/uncomfortable fall on the kick chase but didn't seem obvious what the injury was.
That's a v decent injury result if so. Used to players getting season ending injuries!
A few weeks for players to get themselves sorted now...
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Dorset Boy
On the underdog getting penalised more than the favourite, we see that all the time when the Tier 1 nations play the Tier 2/3 nations too.
Happens in all sports, when a team is poor the marginal decisions always seem to go against them along with the bounce of the ball.
In Bath’s case the only way to change this is to remove Hooper from his post, get a DOR in with experience and let him make the decision on the other coaches.
Getting rid of a failing DOR worked for Quins, it worked for Tigers so why wouldn’t it work for Bath?
Warning removing a ‘failing’ DOR does not guarantee success!
We went through MO’C (disaster) and Geordan Murphy b4 SB!
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:Dorset Boy
On the underdog getting penalised more than the favourite, we see that all the time when the Tier 1 nations play the Tier 2/3 nations too.
Happens in all sports, when a team is poor the marginal decisions always seem to go against them along with the bounce of the ball.
In Bath’s case the only way to change this is to remove Hooper from his post, get a DOR in with experience and let him make the decision on the other coaches.
Getting rid of a failing DOR worked for Quins, it worked for Tigers so why wouldn’t it work for Bath?
The Quins players got rid of Gustard because of the limited game plan. Quins have been an attacking team for yrs, he tried to change that and the players didn’t want it.
I don’t think there’s any evidence that the players don’t want to play for Hoops and/or the coaches , especially with the effort the lads are putting in.
We’ve addressed the attack but it’s been blindingly obvious we’ve needed a specialist defence coach since last season. That decision rests with Hoops. Recruitment up until this season has been good but not signing another lock is poor
Sorry réalise that this is probably on the wrong thread
Quote:Widcombe Boy
We’ve addressed the attack but it’s been blindingly obvious we’ve needed a specialist defence coach since last season. That decision rests with Hoops. Recruitment up until this season has been good but not signing another lock is poor
In my eyes no defence coach in the world will be able to sort Bath until the forwards are able to put the team on the front foot genreally. Imagine the current Bath attack when the players are actually getting quick ball off 'go forward' play... It is no coincidence that Borthwick signing a ton of muscle has resulted in George Ford and Tigers generally having a field day. Sarries smashed Bath up front hence the drubbing.
Totally with you WB on lock. Bath letting Douglas, Attwood, Stooke go without having a top quality replacement lock (who isn't in the treatment room like Spencer) is where many / most of Bath's woes lie this season, including charge downs, penalties, lack of defenders up the site of rucks etc. Its a relatively simple game with a dominant, or at least solid, pack.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Agree matt.
Kay said on fri that tigers basically went out and got lots of v good, big ball carriers to get them on the front foot.
Had genge and then got the likes of weise, liebenberg, van staden, nadalo.
Borths also sorted their basics. As you said game is then massively easier .
Been some scrambled thinking at bath over the last 18m I think in terms of coaching and squad
Kay said on fri that tigers basically went out and got lots of v good, big ball carriers to get them on the front foot.
Had genge and then got the likes of weise, liebenberg, van staden, nadalo.
Borths also sorted their basics. As you said game is then massively easier .
Been some scrambled thinking at bath over the last 18m I think in terms of coaching and squad
When you are down and mired deep in the well bilges , hope, trust and luck are the ladders out. Bath have hope in the many young, gifted players coming through and they offer a glimpse of what might be possible. Now we just need the good luck cogs to mesh on field and to get the few breaks that could start a genuine renaissance and new belief for Bath rugby. Maybe it will take a new DOR, or innovative coach, or for the senior players to start leading - but there is always hope.
Glancing up we can see Newcastle, and Irish rising up the ladder and Worcs heels are within touching distance. They have done it, no reason believe Bath can't as well.
Without relegation we already have a little luck on our side , and have time enough to change.
Time, luck and hope - add in young and hungry talent and its enough to build a team.
Glancing up we can see Newcastle, and Irish rising up the ladder and Worcs heels are within touching distance. They have done it, no reason believe Bath can't as well.
Without relegation we already have a little luck on our side , and have time enough to change.
Time, luck and hope - add in young and hungry talent and its enough to build a team.
Its all been said before - after every match this season and for many over the past 4 seasons.
Quins got rid of Gustard because it was either that or lose Marcus Smith.
Good choice.
Good choice.
Quote:OutsideBath
Happens in all sports, when a team is poor the marginal decisions always seem to go against them along with the bounce of the ball.
I don’t agree with that. I have seen no evidence of it happening in cricket & as a regular football watcher, despite what is sometimes implied, no evidence there also. There are plenty of poor decisions but they seems to apply across the board. It constantly seems to happen in rugby & Bath have benefited in the past. It should not happen & the referees panel should examine individual decisions more closely. The annoying thing is that the assistant referees seldom intervene on such occasions. Before Annie has a go at me I am not implying that our demise is due largely to this.
Quote:hasta
Quins got rid of Gustard because it was either that or lose Marcus Smith.
Good choice.
May be totally wrong but wasn't it fairly open and widespread player revolt at quins (inc Smith as you say)?
That becomes a bit of a no brainer.
Not really any evidence to suggest hoops/hats have completely lost the players. Others may know more on that....
I naively still seem to have some positivity and a feeling that if we got the right defence coach in we could be a v useful side come march/April after williams influence has had some more time.
That is probably hopeless, blind optimism.... and completely based on getting an excellent defence coach who comes in and has good impact. We can't continue to concede an average of about 5 tries per game and expect to do anything.
It was, but the compelling event was that Smith was seriously considering signing for us.
I can see the logic in Hatley covering defence and Lilley/Charteris covering the pack. But it didn't work last year and it's working even less this year. It has to change. And if Hatley doesn't want to give up defence then... Sadly he needs to go.
I can see the logic in Hatley covering defence and Lilley/Charteris covering the pack. But it didn't work last year and it's working even less this year. It has to change. And if Hatley doesn't want to give up defence then... Sadly he needs to go.
Quote:hasta
It was, but the compelling event was that Smith was seriously considering signing for us.
I can see the logic in Hatley covering defence and Lilley/Charteris covering the pack. But it didn't work last year and it's working even less this year. It has to change. And if Hatley doesn't want to give up defence then... Sadly he needs to go.
Agree. Bit gutting to think Smith was so close to coming by several accounts!
I think hats is probably a v good coach ans and v good man. I dont see why he couldnt remain top man whilst not being in charge of defence but maybe his ego or whatever wouldn't allow it
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Widcombe Boy
We’ve addressed the attack but it’s been blindingly obvious we’ve needed a specialist defence coach since last season. That decision rests with Hoops. Recruitment up until this season has been good but not signing another lock is poor
Totally with you WB on lock. Bath letting Douglas, Attwood, Stooke go without having a top quality replacement lock (who isn't in the treatment room like Spencer) is where many / most of Bath's woes lie this season, including charge downs, penalties, lack of defenders up the site of rucks etc. Its a relatively simple game with a dominant, or at least solid, pack.
Add Rhys Davies to that list as he would be a good senior option now.
The agents row excuse is a nonsense excuse I think- as we said it was an open secret stooke was going this time last year. Seems to be cap available as well so no excuse there.
Wasps managed to get fifita as well as stooke. Exeter got mcauley.
I do defend hoops a fair bit but not managing to get a signing over the line was poor. I know they want a longer term solution etc etc but just be pragmatic- you can't have 3 locks in a prem squad!
Adding Rhys Davies to the list is a bit disingenuous he has Welsh senior ambitions therefore neede to return to Wales to further these. Hence we didn’t let him go. I suspect Richards was seen as the home grown alternative. Stooke blotted his copy book and needed a clean start elsewhere. Atwood also wanted out. So not let go but left.
Either way adequate replacements haven’t been found maybe Spencer who is permanently injured or they thought (like many on here) that Ewells continuing selection for England is inexplicable. That still leaves them at least 1 light in that department.. whether this was by design or accident a potential signing falling through like Smith who knows.. certainly could have done without Williams being banned.
Either way adequate replacements haven’t been found maybe Spencer who is permanently injured or they thought (like many on here) that Ewells continuing selection for England is inexplicable. That still leaves them at least 1 light in that department.. whether this was by design or accident a potential signing falling through like Smith who knows.. certainly could have done without Williams being banned.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply we didn't want to retain Davies. Hoops loved him and wanted to keep him. He understandably had international ambitions. I just meant its another guy who went who wasn't replaced.
Richards is awesome bit not convinced he is big enough to be frontline lock...not yet anyway.
They must have been looking at options, I think the failure is landing someone /being pragmatic and getting someone in for a seaaon
Richards is awesome bit not convinced he is big enough to be frontline lock...not yet anyway.
They must have been looking at options, I think the failure is landing someone /being pragmatic and getting someone in for a seaaon
Watching yesterdays game it was galling hearing the commentators eulogising over Stooke!
It was a weird coincidence two weeks running. Last week there were four current or ex-Bath hookers playing, this week there were four current or ex-Bath fly-halves playing.
Quote:TG Kesmo. Atwood also wanted out. So not let go but left.[/quote
Whilst I accept that players will from time to time leave clubs for a new challenge or to re-invigorate the question I would ask is why would someone like Attwood want to leave - he was settled and a senior leader in the club, coming to the end of his career so why was Pat Lam able to convince him to leave and why were we unable or unwilling to try and counter it?
As BathMatt eluded to if the club has conducted "Honest" exit interviews with the departing players - they would have gleaned the information. Given the situation we find ourselves in, one would suggest they haven't or haven't listened.
The one point which I think all can agree whichever side of the fence you sit on - Our recruitment in key positions has been atrocious - I still cannot believe we honestly went into a Premiership/European season with 3 recognised locks one of whom is habitually injured and another carrying a shoulder injury from the summer - that alone is unbelievable and then to continue with the view of not requiring a specialist defence coach despite the tsunami of points being conceded.
I don't know if Hoops has lost the dressing room or not, however his post match interview on Friday was interesting - suggesting that the players were not listening or sticking to his directions - a revolt?
Quote:hasta
It was a weird coincidence two weeks running. Last week there were four current or ex-Bath hookers playing, this week there were four current or ex-Bath fly-halves playing.
Burns, Ford ... who else?
Quote:Ali1969Quote:TG Kesmo. Atwood also wanted out. So not let go but left.[/quote
Whilst I accept that players will from time to time leave clubs for a new challenge or to re-invigorate the question I would ask is why would someone like Attwood want to leave - he was settled and a senior leader in the club, coming to the end of his career so why was Pat Lam able to convince him to leave and why were we unable or unwilling to try and counter it?
I seem to recall that Bristol offered an extra year and greater flexibility around playing/studying to allow him to finish his law conversion degree.
Quote:hasta
Cips, Bailey!
Ah, 'current'. Well, that's not really a weird coincidence is it!!
The hooker thing is, though. Across the league - Walker, Van Vuuren, Oghre, Langdon, Frost, Woolstencroft
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:11:08:17:18:18 by Optimist.
We didn't really have a 'this round' thread this weekend, but just want to draw attention to Newcastle winning at Ex and this sexy, sexy training ground lineout:
[twitter.com]
[twitter.com]
Quote:hasta
We didn't really have a 'this round' thread this weekend, but just want to draw attention to Newcastle winning at Ex and this sexy, sexy training ground lineout:
[twitter.com]
Now that is exactly the kind of innovative attack plays what I was so hoping Dempsey was going to bring us
Ref the hooker ‘phenomenon’ you could easily say that it proved that the club’s decision making in this instance was actually spot on. I’d far rather have Dunn, DuToit and Doughty than any of Walker, VV or the other 4 referred to by Opti. Just saying.
HOP
HOP
Quote:gaz59Quote:hasta
We didn't really have a 'this round' thread this weekend, but just want to draw attention to Newcastle winning at Ex and this sexy, sexy training ground lineout:
[twitter.com]
Now that is exactly the kind of innovative attack plays what I was so hoping Dempsey was going to bring us
Shouldn’t Williams be doing that now? Granted I’ve only watched 3 1/2 games, but I’m yet to see anything innovative that’s come from the training ground.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:gaz59Quote:hasta
We didn't really have a 'this round' thread this weekend, but just want to draw attention to Newcastle winning at Ex and this sexy, sexy training ground lineout:
[twitter.com]
Now that is exactly the kind of innovative attack plays what I was so hoping Dempsey was going to bring us
Shouldn’t Williams be doing that now? Granted I’ve only watched 3 1/2 games, but I’m yet to see anything innovative that’s come from the training ground.
The defence may be a train wreck but the attacking intent and shapes are much better IMO, albeit mostly on the back foot with no space to do anything.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Thought the Cips ever so subtle delayed pop pass that put Dunn thro a gap leading to the Clarke try was a thing of beauty. For all Rhys’s massive talent he didn’t do that sort of thing.
PECK
PECK
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:OutsideBathQuote:gaz59Quote:hasta
We didn't really have a 'this round' thread this weekend, but just want to draw attention to Newcastle winning at Ex and this sexy, sexy training ground lineout:
[twitter.com]
Now that is exactly the kind of innovative attack plays what I was so hoping Dempsey was going to bring us
Shouldn’t Williams be doing that now? Granted I’ve only watched 3 1/2 games, but I’m yet to see anything innovative that’s come from the training ground.
The defence may be a train wreck but the attacking intent and shapes are much better IMO, albeit mostly on the back foot with no space to do anything.
Agreed.
Most of the attack stuff is backs based at the moment. With the forwards struggling for parity at set piece and breakdown he probably wnats to let them sort the walking before trying to run.
PG
Quote:sid the seagull
Thought the Cips ever so subtle delayed pop pass that put Dunn thro a gap leading to the Clarke try was a thing of beauty. For all Rhys’s massive talent he didn’t do that sort of thing.
PECK
'ere 'ere.
Quote:hasta
Walker was exactly as inconsistent for Quins as he was for us.
Think that is a bit harsh. I’ve watched Quins a lot this season and he’s been playing really well for them. Would have preferred to keep him, and wish him all the best. I think he will flourish at Quins. I also like Oghre at Wasps, but know we can’t keep them all.
Apparently RP was on the bench for Wales against the AB!!!!
Surely there was someone, anyone, to do the job ahead of him
Surely there was someone, anyone, to do the job ahead of him
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
Apparently RP was on the bench for Wales against the AB!!!!
Surely there was someone, anyone, to do the job ahead of him
He started the week before and did OK. The usual RP stuff: sitting deep and either kicking from hand which was usually effective or simply shipping it out
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