Bath
NO LET UP. BATH v BRISTOL
Ewels: big ask
By PG Tips
May 4 2021
There is no let-up in Premiership rugby, especially when you are struggling for consistency. After letting slip two winnable games Bath must next host Bristol Bears, Premiership leaders and favourites, who humiliated Bath in their last meeting. That Bristol themselves will be desperate for recovery, having been dumped out of Europe a month ago and lost their last Premiership tie to Exeter only ramps up the pressure. This threatens to be the most desperately daunting derby yet.
While Bath have lost twice in 6 days in both the Premiership and Europe, the Bears have had 15 to prepare a bounce back from their disappointment against Chiefs. Battered bodies against bombastic bruins suggests only one outcome, especially as both sides will recall the 48-3 bruising Bath suffered in January. Bristol have stacked up 10 try bonus points in 17 Premiership ties, their all -round attacking style gives them a positive points difference of 137 (Bath, in “negative equity” are minus 81) and they stand 8 points clear of rivals Exeter with a quarter of the season to go. Bath, 13 points adrift of Play Off places must realistically have minimal chance of glory this season. They must focus on finishing as high in the table as they can and restoring some pride.
Up front Bears mix set piece solidity with fearsome carrying and bone jarring tackling. Any of Afoa, Sinckler, Attwood, Luatua, Vui, Earl, Hughes and Thomas can inflict serious damage on a defence, as can Sheedy, Radradra, the Puitaus, Morahan and Malins behind. The biggest bear though, and architect of their success, is DOR Pat Lam, who has developed a clear playing style and enviable team spirit and got Bristol playing admirably simple, effective and at times glorious attacking rugby. Only the wildest Bathonian optimist can expect any more than a gallant rear-guard action.
Bath’s defence, ludicrously porous early this season has improved- at least in press defence. Once breached though it loses shape all too quickly, offering an easy feast for opponents with a fluid passing game and the ability to switch the point of attack. Bath’s best defensive hope is to stem Bristol’s flow at source. They will need to hamper and slow any opposition possession, both at set piece and breakdown, plus make their first up tackles tell. In this they could be helped by playing a better territorial game. The best sides have worked out Bath’s kick and chase game and know when a box kick is coming. They also know that Ben Spencer will play the major key at half back. Orlando Bailey has done little wrong in his recent outings, but has not been entrusted with management of the game. If Rhys Priestland is fit for Saturday he should start - to vary the kicking strategy and pin the Bears deep in their own half. Apart from at 10 I can see few personnel changes, except to manage injury or fatigue, with the possible exception of Tom de Glanville, if he is ready.
The busiest man in Bath’s coaching staff this week will be Luke Charteris, who has an urgent repair job to do on the lineout, an expected area of strength which was dismantled last weekend. Another with much on his shoulders is Captain Charlie Ewels, who must take a long hard look in the mirror, then at the mountain he must lead his men up, not just on match day, but all week. In the few days available to prepare Bath can fix only so much in tactics and technique. The captain and the rest of his leadership group must make a quantum leap in decision making, plus find the determination, defiance, even desperation to deny the Bears the dominance they will expect.
Possible Teams:
Bath: Schoeman, Dunn, Stuart, McNally, Ewels (Capt.), Faletau, Underhill, Mercer. Spencer, Priestland. Muir, Redpath, Joseph, Cokanasiga. Watson.
Replacements: Bhatti, Walker, Thomas, Stooke, Reid. Chudley, Bailey, Clark.
Bristol Bears: Thomas, Byrne, Sinckler, Attwood, Luatua, Earl, Thomas, Hughes. Uren, Sheedy. Adeolokun, O’Connor, S Piutau, Morahan. C Piutau.
Replacements: Capon, Woolmore, Afoa, Joyce, Vui. Kessell, Lloyd, Malins.
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StumbleuponNO LET UP. BATH v BRISTOL. Team's Up!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 04/05/2021 17:06
04/05/2021 17:06
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:11:11:23:10 by P G Tips.
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:11:11:23:10 by P G Tips.
I'll bet Bristol are quaking in their boots!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Great preview as ever thanks - but I think the Bears will dispatch us even more easily with a four man back row! 
Heads up, well coached, ambitious rugby vs. head down, terribly coached, braindead rugby.
Can't wait.
Can't wait.
I'd start both Reid and Bayliss and see what Faletau and Underhill can do from the bench. I'd give Stooke a start. What harm can it do to give McNally a rest and an opportunity to come off the bench. Unless they're willing to let Bailey do his job, I'd shift Redpath to 10 and bring Ojomoh in at 12. He would absolutely love it and that would be very refreshing. Even if Priestland is fit, I can't really see the point in going back to him now. There is only top 8 to play for, and good as he has been in the last couple of months, he is now very close to being Bath's ex fly half. Hopefully TdG will be fit and he can come in at 15, pushing Ant to 14.
Spencer needs to be told to sack off the incessant box-kicking, and if we do get to within 10 metres of their line, there just has to be some judicious mixture of play. The pick and go was working very well until it wasn't - but the defence has to be given at least some semblance of other things to think about.
Spencer needs to be told to sack off the incessant box-kicking, and if we do get to within 10 metres of their line, there just has to be some judicious mixture of play. The pick and go was working very well until it wasn't - but the defence has to be given at least some semblance of other things to think about.
Teams that have done well against Bristol have shown the defence has to be fast and furious to increasingly push them back and into mistakes going wide too quickly and with zero error including zero penalty
Oh yes, one more thing. There won't be many scoring chances but there will be some and they have to be nailed
Hmm, does that sound like us right now?
Oh yes, one more thing. There won't be many scoring chances but there will be some and they have to be nailed
Hmm, does that sound like us right now?
Quote:ballsout
Heads up, well coached, ambitious rugby vs. head down, terribly coached, braindead rugby.
Can't wait.
You really must stop abusing the opposition BO, even if it is a long standing local derby!
Very little for us to play for now except the blindingly obvious like pride etc but league position doesn't hugely bother me.
I would certainly be giving players here next season the benefit in selection. Want to see more of bayliss, reid and staddon. Would love coetzee to get a few games this season when ready tho it won't be this week.
Fox should be benching over chudley. One or both of Bailey and mojo should be at least in the 23 each week I think.
Think coko is finally running himself into a little bit of form so would persist giving him games.
Be nice to have tdg back in the mix.
Think we need to learn more about Alex gray before the end of the season- don't mind where it is on the pitch.
In terms of this week just pray we aren't hopelessly outclassed like on the reverse fixture.
I would certainly be giving players here next season the benefit in selection. Want to see more of bayliss, reid and staddon. Would love coetzee to get a few games this season when ready tho it won't be this week.
Fox should be benching over chudley. One or both of Bailey and mojo should be at least in the 23 each week I think.
Think coko is finally running himself into a little bit of form so would persist giving him games.
Be nice to have tdg back in the mix.
Think we need to learn more about Alex gray before the end of the season- don't mind where it is on the pitch.
In terms of this week just pray we aren't hopelessly outclassed like on the reverse fixture.
After the weekend, I’m expecting us to be more in the heads down rather than bounce back mindset. I’d love to be wrong, but I can’t see much beyond a shoeing.
Quote:Rawce
...... I can’t see much beyond a shoeing.
From Bristol or Ballsout? Or both?
Very little expectations of getting anything out of this game, and that should not be seen as criticism of BBW. I have truly enjoyed watching Briz this year. Ball in hand CP is one of the most exciting players in world rugby right now. Radrada, Monahan, Hughes, Sinkler, Atters, Luatua, all great individuals that play so well together. Kudos to Lam, we will do well to stay within 2 scores.
Nonetheless still looking forward to it and hoping we can create an upset.
Nonetheless still looking forward to it and hoping we can create an upset.
Quote:One inevitably leads to the other, and if we continue on this trajectory it may eventually become justified. Still, I renewed my ST like the sucker I am.B4thB4ckQuote:Rawce
...... I can’t see much beyond a shoeing.
From Bristol or Ballsout? Or both?
Dunno if this is posted elsewhere but from Somerset Live
That means it is a straight shootout between Bailey and Priestland for the number 10 jersey, with new signing Danny Cipriani still at least a week away from arriving at Farleigh House having played just one game this season back in November
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
That means it is a straight shootout between Bailey and Priestland for the number 10 jersey, with new signing Danny Cipriani still at least a week away from arriving at Farleigh House having played just one game this season back in November
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
I'm pretty sure Watson needs to have a week off - he's not had once since the 6N, right?
After our recent poor performances Bristol will probably think they only have to turn up to win, therefore Bath by 3 !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
I'm sure the players will be hurting from last weekend and will be determined to improve, no doubt playing pride and passion. Unfortunately determination and passion isn't enough to win against a team that has a clear strategy and outclasses you in every department. Difficult to predict anything other than an easy TBP victory for Bristol, although perhaps we can make them wait until the 2nd half to get the 4th try.
Given the current weather forecast you should be more bullish.
Suits your style massively and plays heavily against us. Could come down to kicks at goal.
Suits your style massively and plays heavily against us. Could come down to kicks at goal.
We will need to shut them down by aggressive rush defence and not allow them to play, fix the line out and kick well, then when we get chances take them to score points, no more endless pick n go's before we turn it over please .. can we do that, we shall see.
Referee: Luke Pearce (112th Premiership game).
Assistant Referees: Adam Leal & Jonathan Healy.
TMO: Rowan Kitt.
Citing Officer: Budge Pountney.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Assistant Referees: Adam Leal & Jonathan Healy.
TMO: Rowan Kitt.
Citing Officer: Budge Pountney.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Any wild optimism I might have had was completely blown when I read the article about the Briz players expected to be back this weekend
Quote:gaz59
Any wild optimism I might have had was completely blown when I read the article about the Briz players expected to be back this weekend
+1
Team Up. TdG returns. Rhys on bench.
Bath Rugby side to play Bristol Bears
15. Tom de Glanville, 14. Anthony Watson, 13. Max Clark, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally ©, 5. Elliott Stooke 6. Josh Bayliss, 7. Miles Reid, 8. Taulupe Faletau
Replacements
16. Jacques du Toit, 17. Jamie Bhatti, 18. Christian Judge, 19. Charlie Ewels, 20. Tom Ellis, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Rhys Priestland, 23. Alex Gray
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Bath Rugby side to play Bristol Bears
15. Tom de Glanville, 14. Anthony Watson, 13. Max Clark, 12. Cameron Redpath, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Tom Dunn, 3. Will Stuart, 4. Josh McNally ©, 5. Elliott Stooke 6. Josh Bayliss, 7. Miles Reid, 8. Taulupe Faletau
Replacements
16. Jacques du Toit, 17. Jamie Bhatti, 18. Christian Judge, 19. Charlie Ewels, 20. Tom Ellis, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Rhys Priestland, 23. Alex Gray
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
THE VISITORS
15. Charles Piutau, 14. Luke Morahan, 13. Semi Radradra, 12. Siale Piutau, 11. Max Malins, 10. Callum Sheedy, 9. Andy Uren; 1. Yann Thomas, 2. Bryan Byrne, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Dave Attwood, 5. Chris Vui, 6. Steven Luatua ©, 7. Ben Earl, 8. Nathan Hughes
REPLACEMENTS
16. Jake Kerr, 17. Jake Woolmore, 18. John Afoa, 19. Ed Holmes, 20. Jake Heenan, 21. Tom Kessell, 22. Ioan Lloyd, 23. Alapati Leiua
15. Charles Piutau, 14. Luke Morahan, 13. Semi Radradra, 12. Siale Piutau, 11. Max Malins, 10. Callum Sheedy, 9. Andy Uren; 1. Yann Thomas, 2. Bryan Byrne, 3. Kyle Sinckler, 4. Dave Attwood, 5. Chris Vui, 6. Steven Luatua ©, 7. Ben Earl, 8. Nathan Hughes
REPLACEMENTS
16. Jake Kerr, 17. Jake Woolmore, 18. John Afoa, 19. Ed Holmes, 20. Jake Heenan, 21. Tom Kessell, 22. Ioan Lloyd, 23. Alapati Leiua
That's quite some Bristol lineup. A tough day in prospect.
Could be good prep for Sale though.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Could be good prep for Sale though.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
One to watch from behind the sofa.
An under strength Bristol at home following last week’s disappointment, we might have been in with a sniff. Up against that lot? Even my glass looks half empty.
Nice TdG is back and good to see Watson on the wing. Exciting back row too, although could have done with Underhill’s physicality. Captain Ewels being ‘dropped’ is a bit of a message.
In touch with 30 to go, maybe Rhys comes on and we get Muir and Watson going, but can’t see anything other than a comfortable away win for our local rivals.
An under strength Bristol at home following last week’s disappointment, we might have been in with a sniff. Up against that lot? Even my glass looks half empty.
Nice TdG is back and good to see Watson on the wing. Exciting back row too, although could have done with Underhill’s physicality. Captain Ewels being ‘dropped’ is a bit of a message.
In touch with 30 to go, maybe Rhys comes on and we get Muir and Watson going, but can’t see anything other than a comfortable away win for our local rivals.
I’d having them just about winning the direct position comparisons (7/8 split Bath/Bristol). When you add them playing as a team, playing heads up attacking rugby, better on field captaincy and with a Plan B if things go wrong I can’t see anything in this for us.
I have a worry that our pattern of 10mins bright attacking play that has them on the back foot culminates in 0 points or 3 off the tee for us, then 60mins of getting tonked with a 10min consolation period at the end will be ever present.
No, I’m not in a positive frame of mind. Yes, I might stick a fiver on us to win to ease my guilt.
I have a worry that our pattern of 10mins bright attacking play that has them on the back foot culminates in 0 points or 3 off the tee for us, then 60mins of getting tonked with a 10min consolation period at the end will be ever present.
No, I’m not in a positive frame of mind. Yes, I might stick a fiver on us to win to ease my guilt.
It pains me to say it but I think we are going to get creamed. Oh well, its only a game. 
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Still think you are underestimating the impact the weather is going to have. Gonna be a big leveller and maybe suit your pack more.
More interested in them allowing him to go swimming without armbands to be honest. Really nothing to lose here - let Landy play please.
Good to see Ellis back in the mix.
Good to see Ellis back in the mix.
Cameron Redpath and Max Clark v Siale Piutau and Semi Radradra......... tricky oh and Max Malins on the wing!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:I reckon the weather suits your back row much more than our lighter one.Sit_Down
Still think you are underestimating the impact the weather is going to have. Gonna be a big leveller and maybe suit your pack more.
Quote:Sit_Down
Still think you are underestimating the impact the weather is going to have. Gonna be a big leveller and maybe suit your pack more.
Can't see the weather levelling this up at all. It puts just as much onus on skill levels as it does kilos/cms. Besides, Attwood, Sinckler, Hughes aren't exactly shy.
Quote:Optimist
More interested in them allowing him to go swimming without armbands to be honest. Really nothing to lose here - let Landy play please.
Good to see Ellis back in the mix.
I'm not an advocate of tantrums but I'd put up with 'Landy' throwing one on the opposition 22 at the front 9 for not giving him go forward ball!
Quote:shipwrecked
Cameron Redpath and Max Clark v Siale Piutau and Semi Radradra......... tricky oh and Max Malins on the wing!
Pat seems to like 10s who can play wing.
Let's hope Max Clark is more effective at 13 than JJ was in the reverse fixture.
What happened to the big blond? lock that used to play at 6 sometimes when your pack needed beefing up? No Mercer due to injury or rest. I think this could be a good game and it would be very "Bath" for you to put in a strong performance in a game that maybe doesn't look that close on paper.
Underhill?
Mercer?
Joseph?
Thomas?
I can't see anything here other than Bristol by 15+.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:07:12:47:19 by malco.
Mercer?
Joseph?
Thomas?
I can't see anything here other than Bristol by 15+.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:07:12:47:19 by malco.
Quote:OrientalKruis
What happened to the big blond? lock that used to play at 6 sometimes when your pack needed beefing up? No Mercer due to injury or rest. I think this could be a good game and it would be very "Bath" for you to put in a strong performance in a game that maybe doesn't look that close on paper.
Tom Ellis? Returning from injury I think, on the bench.
i did a back of a fag packet quick calculation and just 7 of their 22 players are eqp. pretty disgraceful. imagine if every club was like that. where would england's players come from?
Actually 13 of the 22 are home nations qualified, so thats pretty good going, not the huge overseas superstar team that some make out!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:07:13:30:28 by hooker 72.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:07:13:30:28 by hooker 72.
Just read that Bristol welcome back 5 internationals... whilst we've rested/dropped/lost 5.
The playing field felt a bit uneven at 11:55. It's looking a bit Mt Everest-y now.
The playing field felt a bit uneven at 11:55. It's looking a bit Mt Everest-y now.
Quote:Sit_Down
Still think you are underestimating the impact the weather is going to have. Gonna be a big leveller and maybe suit your pack more.
Oh good, slippery ball. We'll be losing possession every 10 seconds instead of every 15.
Prepare for a massacre. Weather might be our best friend, keep the score below 50
Jon Chess
Jon Chess
Quote:Jon Chess
Prepare for a massacre. Weather might be our best friend, keep the score below 50
Is that what you are hoping for then? Most would expect Bristol to win but a massacre is just emotive nonsense sorry!
Emotive nonsense? The last game finished 48-3 to them just a few months ago! If that isn't a massacre I don't know what is.
Quote:ballsout
Emotive nonsense? The last game finished 48-3 to them just a few months ago! If that isn't a massacre I don't know what is.
Are you expecting the same score then? What do you define as a massacre by the way? Our current issue is being unable to score not the porous defence we were putting up at that time.
Quote:shipwrecked
Are you expecting the same score then? What do you define as a massacre by the way? Our current issue is being unable to score not the porous defence we were putting up at that time.
I looks it up SW and the OED definitions are:
Bath lose by 50+: Humiliated
Bath lose by 40-50: massacred
Bath lose by 30-40: battered
Bath lose by 20-30: creamed
Bath lose by 10-20: expected
Bath lose by 1-10: refs fault, always hated Luke Pearce
Bath to win by 1-10: hooray for the ref! always loved Luke Pearce
Bath to win 10+: Shirley shum mishtake?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:SJS
Tom Ellis? Returning from injury I think, on the bench.
Thanks. That's the one.
Weather will limit some of the danger their backline possess - but not all - we will have to throw shots of our own. Hindsight is a wonderful thing - a penny for the thoughts in Dave Attwoods head - clearly not happy when informed his services were no longer required.
2 years on and ??
I think this for me sums up our dilemma - Bristol have continued to develop, build and progress and tomorrow put that side out on the pitch. We on the other hand have not IMHO progressed - we still in my opinion have no identity or style of play - we have attempted to copy other teams such as Chiefs and as is the case when you copy someone else you are never as good as them and when the pressure comes on it is not natural to you and it all falls apart which has happened a number of times. We really do still look like a team of individuals.
It is however 80 minutes in what is forecast atrocious weather conditions so: we are at home and we have to go out there and put in a full 80 minute performance - something which unfortunately we have failed to do all season and indeed the past 2 or 3 seasons - if we do go out and hit Bristol with everything we have got and keep that intensity going there is no reason whatsoever why we cannot beat them - they are 15 players on the field that is all.
2 years on and ??
I think this for me sums up our dilemma - Bristol have continued to develop, build and progress and tomorrow put that side out on the pitch. We on the other hand have not IMHO progressed - we still in my opinion have no identity or style of play - we have attempted to copy other teams such as Chiefs and as is the case when you copy someone else you are never as good as them and when the pressure comes on it is not natural to you and it all falls apart which has happened a number of times. We really do still look like a team of individuals.
It is however 80 minutes in what is forecast atrocious weather conditions so: we are at home and we have to go out there and put in a full 80 minute performance - something which unfortunately we have failed to do all season and indeed the past 2 or 3 seasons - if we do go out and hit Bristol with everything we have got and keep that intensity going there is no reason whatsoever why we cannot beat them - they are 15 players on the field that is all.
Quote:Ali1969
Hindsight is a wonderful thing - a penny for the thoughts in Dave Attwoods head - clearly not happy when informed his services were no longer required.
Not sure that's accurate Ali? Bris offered him the chance to study for a law degree or something similar added to the fact that he was going home? Didn't seem like an acrimonious thing to me.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
Are you expecting the same score then? What do you define as a massacre by the way? Our current issue is being unable to score not the porous defence we were putting up at that time.
I looks it up SW and the OED definitions are:
Bath lose by 50+: Humiliated
Bath lose by 40-50: massacred
Bath lose by 30-40: battered
Bath lose by 20-30: creamed
Bath lose by 10-20: expected
Bath lose by 1-10: refs fault, always hated Luke Pearce
Bath to win by 1-10: hooray for the ref! always loved Luke Pearce
Bath to win 10+: Shirley shum mishtake?
Cheers Matt for the diligence so its between 'expected' but with a possibility of 'creamed' then!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:ballsout
Emotive nonsense? The last game finished 48-3 to them just a few months ago! If that isn't a massacre I don't know what is.
Are you expecting the same score then? What do you define as a massacre by the way? Our current issue is being unable to score not the porous defence we were putting up at that time.
I'm not sure what kind of score I expect. We could get torn apart or we could put in the usual backs to the wall one-off performance and win by a score. My point is it's not a stretch of the imagination to expect a massacre, like the previous game was.
[www.metoffice.gov.uk] - Looks like the rain will be past before kick-off, just Dan Punderfoot then.
Quote:Mike the Taxi
https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcnk62de6#?date=2021-05-08 - Looks like the rain will be past before kick-off, just Dan Punderfoot then.
So just the 30-40% chance of rain and the gale force wind to contend with then.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
Are you expecting the same score then? What do you define as a massacre by the way? Our current issue is being unable to score not the porous defence we were putting up at that time.
I looks it up SW and the OED definitions are:
Bath lose by 50+: Humiliated
Bath lose by 40-50: massacred
Bath lose by 30-40: battered
Bath lose by 20-30: creamed
Bath lose by 10-20: expected
Bath lose by 1-10: refs fault, always hated Luke Pearce
Bath to win by 1-10: hooray for the ref! always loved Luke Pearce
Bath to win 10+: Shirley shum mishtake?
Fair assessment Matt, but what if Bath were Mullered Here
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:Old Bath TubQuote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
Are you expecting the same score then? What do you define as a massacre by the way? Our current issue is being unable to score not the porous defence we were putting up at that time.
I looks it up SW and the OED definitions are:
Bath lose by 50+: Humiliated
Bath lose by 40-50: massacred
Bath lose by 30-40: battered
Bath lose by 20-30: creamed
Bath lose by 10-20: expected
Bath lose by 1-10: refs fault, always hated Luke Pearce
Bath to win by 1-10: hooray for the ref! always loved Luke Pearce
Bath to win 10+: Shirley shum mishtake?
Fair assessment Matt, but what if Bath were Mullered Here
Excellent article, on that basis it seems that Semi Radradra will be out to ramscooter the Bath defence. By that I mean to use the word in its 'cause panic' definition rather than the other meaning that is of course 'spray with a water pistol'. We might hope that the damage he causes is simply a squirt in the face though I somehow think he might cause considerably more damage than that!
For a West Country derby the term ‘Scrumplicate ‘ as mentioned in that article seems rather appropriate! 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
I would go for “battered” with most of the points coming in the final 20.
Where did I say I wanted my team to be massacred??? Just think it’s possible but the weather might become a big factor. As Ballsout stated , we did lose 48 3 last time.
Jon Chess
Jon Chess
Just as well the Bath players have better things to do than read this messageboard this morning.
p.s. do you think Ballsout practices being an expert repetitive old misery who gets kicks out of being the doomster or does it just come naturally as in his genetic makeup?
p.s. do you think Ballsout practices being an expert repetitive old misery who gets kicks out of being the doomster or does it just come naturally as in his genetic makeup?
Quote:BathMatt53
Bath lose by 50+: Humiliated
Bath lose by 40-50: massacred
Bath lose by 30-40: battered
Bath lose by 20-30: creamed
Bath lose by 10-20: expected
Reminds me of my cooking sometimes.
I battered the fish, creamed the potatoes but humiliated myself by massacaring the vegetables as expected. Can't blame Luke Pearce for that.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:13:10:08 by B4thB4ck.
I really think that BathMatt's table should become the accepted definition for describing scores. Perhaps the mods should find a special link in the top menu for it!
It does of course work both ways, I'll take a Bath battered Bristol as a description any day!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
It does of course work both ways, I'll take a Bath battered Bristol as a description any day!
Quote:shipwrecked
I really think that BathMatt's table should become the accepted definition for describing scores. Perhaps the mods should find a special link in the top menu for it!
It does of course work both ways, I'll take a Bath battered Bristol as a description any day!
I'm afraid you will have to go back to Oct '96 for that SW.......... 76 - 7 !!!
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Quote:annie blackthorn
Just as well the Bath players have better things to do than read this messageboard this morning.
p.s. do you think Ballsout practices being an expert repetitive old misery who gets kicks out of being the doomster or does it just come naturally as in his genetic makeup?
Erm, as opposed to your shining example of support and positivity just a few days ago...?
Quote:annie blackthorn
Why on earth any of you thought we had a cat in hell's chance of coming away with a win against Montpellier just illustrates how some of you JUST DON'T GET IT.
Do you?
Yours ever = in despair.
P.S. Cipriani is not the Messiah btw.
Difference is the team you said we didn’t have a snowballs chance in hell of beating were sat 11th in the Top14. The one we’re playing today are top of the Prem. And I said I wouldn’t even be surprised if we won today.
Your posts always give me a chuckle so thanks for that at least
Hopefully Bristol will get tired after all this running about in space and having to always have the ball.
What’s going on !!! 2 scores in 2 mins. For Bath
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New haircut for SH I wish he ditch that red coat ! It’s just not Bath
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Quote:Rawce
Missed the first few minutes, how come Priestland is on?
HIA for OB now passed
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Had a look after 10, ninety something % territory and possession to Bristol, hi ho, about as expected. 5 mins later 12-0 to Bath!
Missed the first ten but I must say that for the next 15 we’ve been on top and deserved our lead, even with an interception. Aggressive defence, playing the territory well and making metres with ball in hand - so far, the opposite of my doom prophecy at the start of the thread. Keep it up Bath!
We needed a good start and some cheap points. Boxes ticked so far.
I only have the radio, I think we have the wind 1st half?
A long, long way to go.
Mr Sheridan, please do tell us where the ball is.
I only have the radio, I think we have the wind 1st half?
A long, long way to go.
Mr Sheridan, please do tell us where the ball is.
I wonder if Watson minds that he can only ever have the ball in his own half?
5 visits to their 22 for 15 points. Bris is 4 for 0. The polar opposite of us last week. Great to see that and the line out have been largely addressed.
Their counter ruck is effective though. Pen and try for them off the line out.
Spencer massively out played Uren that half
It'll be tough against the wind in the 2nd
It'll be tough against the wind in the 2nd
With Priestland for the last 20 mins there’s half a chance here. But Spencer letting Bailey play turns out be a good idea - he’s been excellent. Bayliss has an outstanding engine and attitude.
Can anybody explain how it is that Attwood's shoulder makes direct contact with Stuart's head in a tackle forcing him off with an HIA and it doesn't even warrant a second look. But if you are wearing a blue black and white shirt it is five weeks in the bin.
Also Bristol's try should have been a Bath penalty. Bristol loose forward breaks off the maul and takes out Reid who is defending on the fringe. Blatant offside.
Also Bristol's try should have been a Bath penalty. Bristol loose forward breaks off the maul and takes out Reid who is defending on the fringe. Blatant offside.
Quote:malco
Can anybody explain how it is that Attwood's shoulder makes direct contact with Stuart's head in a tackle forcing him off with an HIA and it doesn't even warrant a second look. But if you are wearing a blue black and white shirt it is five weeks in the bin.
Also Bristol's try should have been a Bath penalty. Bristol loose forward breaks off the maul and takes out Reid who is defending on the fringe. Blatant offside.
Bristol also went straight off their feet turning the bsll over at the previous ruck.
One ruck Uren took a good 8 seconds to play the ball, and I though LP was really hot on that.
First 10 looked like we'd get hammered, but the couple of 'lucky' scores seemed to bring some confidence. Will be a tough second half though.
2nd Briz try disallowed?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:17:48:59 by Mike the Taxi.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:17:48:59 by Mike the Taxi.
Quite a few Brizz offloads look forqard to me
P G Tips
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Well, it was nice while it lasted. Losing Stuart has given Bristol huge momentum.
Quote:P G Tips
Quite a few Brizz offloads look forqard to me
Was it 3 in the first half called by the commentary team and only one (key one though) picked up by the TMO.
Oh dear Bristol send on the ‘Finishers’ !
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Sadly our scrum is costing us big time. ..............again !
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I think opti & Rawce are right. We wellbrue loss of Stuart.
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It's really disappointing how big a step down our first to second choice tight head is. Losing Stuart killed us completely.
And there's the game. Bris always had more in them and just were not quite on it in the first half. Not given us a bean in the second. Could be a hammering coming up
Bris have this strange idea of using backs to score tries. What’s that all about?
Dunn in trouble again ?
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Atwood makes contact with the head of Stuart and forces him off. No card. Dunn makes accidental contact with the head of Randrada in a tackle, red card. Bath screwed twice over. Total farce.
Game over 
.
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Glad we employ so many forwards coaches, really shows in our set piece dominance.
This will be a long ten minutes. I think Bris would still have won having had a better second half but Stuart and Dunn both pivotal moments.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Game over
Was over after the yellow card earlier in the second half
It’s not accidental Malco when you hunker down and go shoulder first on someone’s exposed head. I didn’t see the Attwood one, so can’t comment, but that’s two sly reds from Dunn in as many months.
Glad to see we aren’t just rolling over though. Enjoying the fight at the end.
Bristol defender just tackled Faletau round the neck - not a second look
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:18:24:45 by Coalminer.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:18:24:45 by Coalminer.
Yes, good shout. Clarke has had a very good one in defence and contributed well in attack.
Luke Pearce not had a great game and been bailed out on a number of occasions by TMO bar Will Stiart incident.
Does not detract how poor our backup props are and we have failed to fire any meaningful shots at Bristol bar Rhys Priestlands kick - quite pathetic.
Question for us all DoR and Head Coach see Juan Schoeman struggling and then instead of changing for Bhatti before the penalty try scrum and yellow card they allow the incident to happen really really poor and another example of our coaches inability to react.
Positives Bayliss and Reid not for the first time this season. Only ever one winner well deserved by Bears looked really dangerous throughout - shows how far we have slipped behind Bristol.
Some serious issues to sort out.
Does not detract how poor our backup props are and we have failed to fire any meaningful shots at Bristol bar Rhys Priestlands kick - quite pathetic.
Question for us all DoR and Head Coach see Juan Schoeman struggling and then instead of changing for Bhatti before the penalty try scrum and yellow card they allow the incident to happen really really poor and another example of our coaches inability to react.
Positives Bayliss and Reid not for the first time this season. Only ever one winner well deserved by Bears looked really dangerous throughout - shows how far we have slipped behind Bristol.
Some serious issues to sort out.
Faletau's rate of quality performances in a Bath shirt is... Not great. Really a questionable use of a marquee spot.
Good effort by Bath but Bristol’s class proved critical in the end. Bristol are a club with a excellent coach, great exciting players and lots of money , well done to them indeed👏👏
Jon Chess
Jon Chess
Who have Bath left to play ? 4 more games how many points from all 4 ? And the answer is possibly 4.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:18:39:40 by Old Bath Tub.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:18:39:40 by Old Bath Tub.
Quote:And the comparison to Mercer is stark!hasta
Faletau's rate of quality performances in a Bath shirt is... Not great. Really a questionable use of a marquee spot.
Quote:hasta
Faletau's rate of quality performances in a Bath shirt is... Not great. Really a questionable use of a marquee spot.
Exactly this, thought he was very average, outshone by Bayliss and Reid IMO
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I think it’s obvious to most Bath observers that we have nil chance of winning anyth8ng with Hoops at the helm. Nice guy but no fire in his belly and no obvious strategy. So the question is who’s out there that would come in, settle on a style of play, build a side around it, get some motivating coaches in and reinvigorate us ? Answers on apostcard to ....
Quote:+1hasta
Glad we employ so many forwards coaches, really shows in our set piece dominance.
Frankly embarrassing. Try to base play on forward power, but fail to pick and drive last week, plus awful lineout. This week scrum is mullered.
First two tries complete luck, and not based on any creative play by us.
Ridiculous number of reds and yellows in last few months. Do they not learn?
It really is dismal.
We need to address the replacement front row which is a massive drop off in quality. Season is over really,there is a lot to fix in the off season.
Quote:hasta
Faletau's rate of quality performances in a Bath shirt is... Not great. Really a questionable use of a marquee spot.
Couldn’t agree more, put him in a Wales or Lions shirt and he is usually outstanding, in a Bath shirt he’s generally anonymous. If you watch him closely he gets through plenty of work, lots of tackles and rucks hit but they are rarely impactful. Give me Mercer every day of the week.
On this topic, give me Reid or Bayliss (both outstanding today) over Underhill and Clark over Joseph.
The gulf in the teams today was vast, far greater than scoreline but it wasn’t unexpected. Does anyone actually believe we're progressing though in any shape or form?
The backs look clueless when they get the ball and the passing is woeful.
As for the pack, they seem to be regressing, set piece is a shambles and we know the drop off from Obano & Stuart is vast. I genuinely wonder why Schoeman wasn’t benched for Bhatti earlier though? It’s not benefit of hindsight, he was struggling all game and Bhatti is the stronger scrummager.
Another season of mediocrity despite boasting one of the strongest squads (on paper) in the league. Is it the coaches? The players? The hierarchy? A combination?
Whatever it is, it’s getting very tiresome. I don’t question the heart of the players though, plenty of effort epitomised by Reid and Bayliss who were outstanding.
The effort of some young lads aside, completely embarrassing and, for me, neatly sums up a completely forgettable season.
Bright in patches, good start (how many times will we go 10-20 points up and throw it away?), a nice cross field kick try, and a few decent individual efforts, with Bayliss and Reid excellent.
...then our defence concedes 42 points AT HOME. Awful discipline and idiotic individual moments. Whether you like the rules or not, Dunn is a fool for making it an easy decision for the ref and he deserves the long ban he’s got coming. Stooke’s late charge on Sheedy not far behind on the ‘idiot’ scale. Our fitness levels look sub par and Faletau played like the opposite of a Lion.
All round pathetic and, to my mind, after the last 2 weeks, I’m back thinking that big changes are needed in order to change the course we’re on, as we’re going absolutely nowhere. Only saving grace was I wasn’t expecting any different - but expecting to lose so heavily at home to our local rivals - and then losing so heavily - is a bit of a low point.
Bright in patches, good start (how many times will we go 10-20 points up and throw it away?), a nice cross field kick try, and a few decent individual efforts, with Bayliss and Reid excellent.
...then our defence concedes 42 points AT HOME. Awful discipline and idiotic individual moments. Whether you like the rules or not, Dunn is a fool for making it an easy decision for the ref and he deserves the long ban he’s got coming. Stooke’s late charge on Sheedy not far behind on the ‘idiot’ scale. Our fitness levels look sub par and Faletau played like the opposite of a Lion.
All round pathetic and, to my mind, after the last 2 weeks, I’m back thinking that big changes are needed in order to change the course we’re on, as we’re going absolutely nowhere. Only saving grace was I wasn’t expecting any different - but expecting to lose so heavily at home to our local rivals - and then losing so heavily - is a bit of a low point.
The day's already too depressing for negatives, so let's cheer the positives. Miles Reid gets better every game. TDG can really burn the turf and Bayliss put in yet another session above and beyond. And it could have been 50. Hooray!
Quote:Do we need to change to a red shirt to get the best out of him??!HuewQuote:hasta
Faletau's rate of quality performances in a Bath shirt is... Not great. Really a questionable use of a marquee spot.
Couldn’t agree more, put him in a Wales or Lions shirt and he is usually outstanding, in a Bath shirt he’s generally anonymous.
What's one of our backs doing scoring 2 tries? I thought Bath's game was supposed to be forwards dominated?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:19:02:14 by Mike the Taxi.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:19:02:14 by Mike the Taxi.
Don’t worry everybody, Stuart will have all the answers at the Monday review.........not !
What were his words of wisdom post match ?
Seriously it’s time for some major changes
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What were his words of wisdom post match ?
Seriously it’s time for some major changes
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Quote:Beergoggles
I think it’s obvious to most Bath observers that we have nil chance of winning anyth8ng with Hoops at the helm. Nice guy but no fire in his belly and no obvious strategy. So the question is who’s out there that would come in, settle on a style of play, build a side around it, get some motivating coaches in and reinvigorate us ? Answers on apostcard to ....
This - 100%. It must be really demotivating being one of Bath’s backs right now, seeing what other sides are doing with the ball and watching our ‘forward-led game’ fail again and again.
Craig and Macdonald have to take responsibility for this mess - it’s their experiment, and there was nothing obvious to say it would work.
We had the right game plan in the 1st half and pressurised them by blitzing Sheedy and their passing game. The scrum went to pieces when Stuart went off and penalty avalanche followed. The squad, coaching and captain are certainly not a match for a top side. The young players are good but we will continue to play with the handbrake on with a 8 man underpowered forwards game.
Quote:hasta
Glad we employ so many forwards coaches, really shows in our set piece dominance.
That's my biggest gripe.
We have millions of former front 5 players on the coaching staff and we are going backwards.
The personnel and depth just aren't good enough player wise there either.
Clearly its hoops and hats desire to primarily gain dominance up front and play a power game based around set piece, rolling maul and pick/drive.
Trouble is our back up front rowers really aren't up to it and our locks are all decent but none outstanding.
The replacements for judge and stooke (in combination with an improvement in coaching) are going to be v v important. If we have to spend some chunky cap I think there is a fairly lengthy list of players I think are surplus to requirements (whether they are off contract is a diff matter)
For a team in Bath’s position only losing by 20pts to Bristol is a positive. Look on the bright side we’re still top 8 so in Hooper’s world that’s job done. Also we didn’t have to suffer sitting near their fans.
Quote:OutsideBath
For a team in Bath’s position only losing by 20pts to Bristol is a positive. Look on the bright side we’re still top 8 so in Hooper’s world that’s job done. Also we didn’t have to suffer sitting near their fans.
Quote:charlieboaQuote:hasta
Glad we employ so many forwards coaches, really shows in our set piece dominance.
That's my biggest gripe.
We have millions of former front 5 players on the coaching staff and we are going backwards.
The personnel and depth just aren't good enough player wise there either.
Clearly its hoops and hats desire to primarily gain dominance up front and play a power game based around set piece, rolling maul and pick/drive.
Trouble is our back up front rowers really aren't up to it and our locks are all decent but none outstanding.
The replacements for judge and stooke (in combination with an improvement in coaching) are going to be v v important. If we have to spend some chunky cap I think there is a fairly lengthy list of players I think are surplus to requirements (whether they are off contract is a diff matter)
Strongly agree with this, when the criticism of Hooper was being bandied about earlier in the season we had a pack that could win line outs, win driving mauls and could exert pressure in the set scrums but disorganised back play and poor defence.
Today we see we have no line out dominance, a driving maul in disarray and better defence with our backs just showing vague glimpses or individual highlights.
It seems we can can't hold on to those skills for more than 5-6 games before we forget. Hooper's ten can be beneficial if we see slow but clear progress in the way Baxter developed his side at Exeter.
If our skills are going to be cyclic then its clearly not going to work. We don't need one additional coach we need 2 or 3. The failure of such a strong pack to retain their dominance is very worrying in my view CB's comment about going backwards is spot on.
I'm struggling to see the direction now.
Quote:malco
Can anybody explain how it is that Attwood's shoulder makes direct contact with Stuart's head in a tackle forcing him off with an HIA and it doesn't even warrant a second look. But if you are wearing a blue black and white shirt it is five weeks in the bin.
.
Was a strange one as looked innocuous but clearly head contact to force the hia (with enough force to fail the hia) and that could only have come from the initial hit so no review at all seems like a bad miss on the officials part.
A day when we absolutely needed to keep stuart on the pitch as long as possible (too often the case, please get recruitment right).
Not sure anything like that has been missed this season when we have been the perpetrator!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:charlieboaQuote:hasta
Glad we employ so many forwards coaches, really shows in our set piece dominance.
That's my biggest gripe.
We have millions of former front 5 players on the coaching staff and we are going backwards.
The personnel and depth just aren't good enough player wise there either.
Clearly its hoops and hats desire to primarily gain dominance up front and play a power game based around set piece, rolling maul and pick/drive.
Trouble is our back up front rowers really aren't up to it and our locks are all decent but none outstanding.
The replacements for judge and stooke (in combination with an improvement in coaching) are going to be v v important. If we have to spend some chunky cap I think there is a fairly lengthy list of players I think are surplus to requirements (whether they are off contract is a diff matter)
It seems we can can't hold on to those skills for more than 5-6 games before we forget. Hooper's ten can be beneficial if we see slow but clear progress in the way Baxter developed his side at Exeter.
If our skills are going to be cyclic then its clearly not going to work. We don't need one additional coach we need 2 or 3. The failure of such a strong pack to retain their dominance is very worrying in my view CB's comment about going backwards is spot on.
I'm struggling to see the direction now.
Completely agree. It's like my brain in middle age, if some knowledge comes in then something goes out.
We fix one issue and develop two new issues. Bizarre. My theory was that hats is spread to thin, combined with having a complete imbalance in the personnel of the coaching staff but who knows. I don't think dave williams is the golden bullet, as you say I think it needs a few fresh faces or some of the younger coaches to seriously develop fast!
That's 4 losses on the bounce to Bristol - and 5 of the last 6. We are firmly worse than them. Ouch.
Quote:dr.bath1865
All round pathetic and, to my mind, after the last 2 weeks, I’m back thinking that big changes are needed in order to change the course we’re on, as we’re going absolutely nowhere. Only saving grace was I wasn’t expecting any different - but expecting to lose so heavily at home to our local rivals - and then losing so heavily - is a bit of a low point.
Couldn't have put it better myself
Quote:dannyf2
That's 4 losses on the bounce to Bristol - and 5 of the last 6. We are firmly worse than them. Ouch.
We are miles behind them currently.
They know how they want to play and get the right players and coaches in place to enable that. Hence they all enjoy it, get a good atmosphere and culture going.
I think hoops and hats know how they want to play, just completely incapable of coaching / getting the coaches to make it happenn. combined with having cap tied up in places that don't align with that style it's all very frustrating to witness.
Academy lads Bayliss and Reid outstanding again.
Incredulous about the pathetic state of our backs. Absolutely bereft of creativity and strategy. We can't keep relying on Muir creating something from nothing. Gonna put my foot through the tele if I hear anymore commentary about our exciting 'on paper' back division, every week it's said and it yields sweet f.a. All that said, Clark had his best game for a long time.
To get so little out of so much alleged (and expensive) talent is a criminal failing from our coaching set up. My only hope is that Cips ignores any of the coaching staff and runs his backs how he sees fit.
We are letting the wrong No.8 leave the club this summer. Dunn has now seemingly graduated from the Ross Batty school of discipline, and others have put our front row succession planning issues better than I could. 2 to 3 seasons behind the top two. As for our much vaunted forward game.... emasculated today. Scrum and Counter-ruck was embarrassing.
Aaaaaagh what a team to support! C'mon Bath.
Incredulous about the pathetic state of our backs. Absolutely bereft of creativity and strategy. We can't keep relying on Muir creating something from nothing. Gonna put my foot through the tele if I hear anymore commentary about our exciting 'on paper' back division, every week it's said and it yields sweet f.a. All that said, Clark had his best game for a long time.
To get so little out of so much alleged (and expensive) talent is a criminal failing from our coaching set up. My only hope is that Cips ignores any of the coaching staff and runs his backs how he sees fit.
We are letting the wrong No.8 leave the club this summer. Dunn has now seemingly graduated from the Ross Batty school of discipline, and others have put our front row succession planning issues better than I could. 2 to 3 seasons behind the top two. As for our much vaunted forward game.... emasculated today. Scrum and Counter-ruck was embarrassing.
Aaaaaagh what a team to support! C'mon Bath.
Stuart Hooper “We’ve got to be smarter, we’ve got to be wiser and not make silly decisions on the field.” Really ? 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:dannyf2
That's 4 losses on the bounce to Bristol - and 5 of the last 6. We are firmly worse than them. Ouch.
That's putting it mildly. They left us in the dust ages ago.
Top quality coaching. Heads up rugby. Outstanding culture and team spirit. Great environment that brings out the best in the players. The antithesis of Bath Rugby.
And yet, Tarquin remains, somehow...
It doesn't need to take a decade of rebuilding.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:08:21:50:07 by ballsout.
I think the guys running the club are smarter than you think, considering the, so far, dismal experiment of our current coaching set up to sign Cipriani just before sending out the season ticket renewals was a genius idea. I fell for it.
About as disappointing as I expected.
Bayliss and Reid both very good, I actually thought the defence was generally strong and it really made them think first half.
The lineout for me was not fixed, whilst we won most of the lineouts the vast majority of the throws were to the front, and you can't really do anything with that ball.
One of the most frustrating things is that week after week something doesn't work, but we are not smart enough to address it on the field. Today it was the rucks where numerous times we were driven off the ball because we did not commit enough to the breakdown or didn't fight to stay off the floor. It happened a lot first half, and I thought it was something that would be discussed at half time, but then it happened straight after halftime again. Surely the players should spot it and fix it but if they can't the coaches can?
Bayliss and Reid both very good, I actually thought the defence was generally strong and it really made them think first half.
The lineout for me was not fixed, whilst we won most of the lineouts the vast majority of the throws were to the front, and you can't really do anything with that ball.
One of the most frustrating things is that week after week something doesn't work, but we are not smart enough to address it on the field. Today it was the rucks where numerous times we were driven off the ball because we did not commit enough to the breakdown or didn't fight to stay off the floor. It happened a lot first half, and I thought it was something that would be discussed at half time, but then it happened straight after halftime again. Surely the players should spot it and fix it but if they can't the coaches can?
This is what Bath needs to add a bit of Zap to the side, its an apple vodka made from fruit grown near Chernobyl !
It's on the label "made frompples" PS Its not radioactive ?!*
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
It's on the label "made frompples" PS Its not radioactive ?!*
Yes really disappointing after a 15 zip lead, but probably about what I expected before KO TBH.
Bristol are a superior team in virtually all departments, they are where they are for good reason.
Some positives today Reid amazing, again. Also good shifts from Baylis, Clarke, Spencer and Watson.
Bristol are a superior team in virtually all departments, they are where they are for good reason.
Some positives today Reid amazing, again. Also good shifts from Baylis, Clarke, Spencer and Watson.
SH joins coaching set-up 2016.
SH is DoR 2019.
League positions :
2016 - 9th
2017- 5th
2018 - 6th
2019- 6th
2020 - 4th
2021 - 7th*
No discernible influence or positive trajectory.
Overall mediocre.
Pat Lam made DoR 2017:
2018 - Div2 1st
2019- (Div 1*) 9th
2020 - 3rd
2012- 1st*
I rest my case.
HOP
SH is DoR 2019.
League positions :
2016 - 9th
2017- 5th
2018 - 6th
2019- 6th
2020 - 4th
2021 - 7th*
No discernible influence or positive trajectory.
Overall mediocre.
Pat Lam made DoR 2017:
2018 - Div2 1st
2019- (Div 1*) 9th
2020 - 3rd
2012- 1st*
I rest my case.
HOP
Quote:sid the seagull
SH joins coaching set-up 2016.
SH is DoR 2019.
League positions :
2016 - 9th
2017- 5th
2018 - 6th
2019- 6th
2020 - 4th
2021 - 7th*
No discernible influence or positive trajectory.
Overall mediocre.
Pat Lam made DoR 2017:
2018 - Div2 1st
2019- (Div 1*) 9th
2020 - 3rd
2012- 1st*
I rest my case.
HOP
Then it might be helpful if you stated what it was. That SH is not as good a DOR as,Pat Lam? We knew that. That Pat Lam recruited 3 or 4 genuinely world class players and then built his team around them? We knew that too.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Just watched the game. Forget the scoreline (which massively flattered us), only one team played any real rugby. It was amusing to hear Ugo and Lol try to change gears to deal with the fact we were winning for an hour but we really did not compete at all. Individuals good but not the team. And I fear Taulupe is a luxury we can no longer afford, if we ever could.
I do think that a penalty try AND a yellow card is too high a penalty to pay for the crime of not being as good as the opposition in the scrum.
My MotM - Orlando Bailey, who continues to evolve.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
I do think that a penalty try AND a yellow card is too high a penalty to pay for the crime of not being as good as the opposition in the scrum.
My MotM - Orlando Bailey, who continues to evolve.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
It is getting to the stage where we know we are going to be outplayed in advance & so can anticipate the outcome. Against some teams we aren’t capable of competing whilst against others we just manage to come out on top by virtue of a single oft repeated forward manoeuvre, and even that now seems to have deserted us. The first two tries today were fortuitous & not the result of good play. I was expecting a 30/40 margin & wasn’t far off regrettably. This team doesn’t even have the ability to surprise us with the occasional special performance.
Perhaps our world class players on paper................are not actually really world class.
This was men versus boys.
At one point, early second half, Ugo Moyne said the very obvious "that's a lot easy yards Bath have given Bristol.
Stooke fine him a weeks wages for the off the ball on sheedy.
Faletau fine half a weeks wages for the stupid penalty just before half time that got them in position for their try.
This was men versus boys.
At one point, early second half, Ugo Moyne said the very obvious "that's a lot easy yards Bath have given Bristol.
Stooke fine him a weeks wages for the off the ball on sheedy.
Faletau fine half a weeks wages for the stupid penalty just before half time that got them in position for their try.
I don't think our squad is so exceptional on paper and definitely not reality. It's criminal how little we get from our internationals but the drop off after them is precipitous.
Our back-up front row are a liability who lost the argument so long ago that all it took was Pearce to be reminded he should be penalising them. I don't know what's happened to Dunn either and I'm not sure it helps that our lineout has regressed to junior-rugby standard because of one bad week.
I thought Faletau had been quite good this season but I think he plays better with a target to achieve and now having achieved it I got the impression he'd rather not risk the injury.
As a team we are so slow to learn. The issues persist for weeks and when we fix them, new ones arise. We thought we'd cracked it with the close pick and drive and now I supposed panic is setting in about that and were practicing backs moves again. Muddled thinking and it lies with coaches first and foremost.
Our back-up front row are a liability who lost the argument so long ago that all it took was Pearce to be reminded he should be penalising them. I don't know what's happened to Dunn either and I'm not sure it helps that our lineout has regressed to junior-rugby standard because of one bad week.
I thought Faletau had been quite good this season but I think he plays better with a target to achieve and now having achieved it I got the impression he'd rather not risk the injury.
As a team we are so slow to learn. The issues persist for weeks and when we fix them, new ones arise. We thought we'd cracked it with the close pick and drive and now I supposed panic is setting in about that and were practicing backs moves again. Muddled thinking and it lies with coaches first and foremost.
Quote:The Bear
As a team we are so slow to learn. The issues persist for weeks and when we fix them, new ones arise. We thought we'd cracked it with the close pick and drive and now I supposed panic is setting in about that and were practicing backs moves again. Muddled thinking and it lies with coaches first and foremost.
Agree with your whole post but esp this.
It is continually 1 step forwards, 2 steps back. Absolutely no consistency in any element of our game.
I always believe players have to have accountability but these issues seem v much coaching/leadership related.
I agree with the posts saying clark did OK, I just find it depressing that a few tackles and a nice kick are celebrated. The best thing he did was fluff his lines so badly he didn't even lay a hand on the ball for the first try. He would be a fine example of the drop off from first to second choice if JJ showed any form.
I liked the look of that backrow in theory and Reid/bayliis went well.
Just think it was too lightweight. No one to help mcnally in the mauls, no one to carry in heavy traffic.
I am hoping coetzee solves some of these problems. Looks a complete player who would be able to make hard yards.
Tbf I think faletau and underhill have been good fairly consistently this season....possibly not to the tune of their club salaries but have offered more than previous seasons. Underhill has added carrying to his game.
Just think it was too lightweight. No one to help mcnally in the mauls, no one to carry in heavy traffic.
I am hoping coetzee solves some of these problems. Looks a complete player who would be able to make hard yards.
Tbf I think faletau and underhill have been good fairly consistently this season....possibly not to the tune of their club salaries but have offered more than previous seasons. Underhill has added carrying to his game.
Squad wise it’s talented what we are shy is at least 3 coaches we have no named, defence, skills and forwards coaches I know Haley, RD, ML help out in these areas but surely we need names and dedicated coaches who are responsible for these areas. The coaching staff are spread way to thin IMO.
"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"
"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"
Penny for Bruce's thoughts. 10 years down the line and still a second rate team which looks an absolute country mile away from those at the top. Unless something changes I fear that it will be more mid table mediocrity for the foreseeable and for me its the two at the top - TM and SH.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Apologies if I missed a comment about this or indeed I'm mixing this up with Will Stuart but didn't Bailey go off in the first half for a HIA due to a 'shoulder to shoulder' contact? I didn't see the contact but wonder how it happened.
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:sid the seagull
SH joins coaching set-up 2016.
SH is DoR 2019.
League positions :
2016 - 9th
2017- 5th
2018 - 6th
2019- 6th
2020 - 4th
2021 - 7th*
No discernible influence or positive trajectory.
Overall mediocre.
Pat Lam made DoR 2017:
2018 - Div2 1st
2019- (Div 1*) 9th
2020 - 3rd
2012- 1st*
I rest my case.
HOP
Then it might be helpful if you stated what it was. That SH is not as good a DOR as,Pat Lam? We knew that. That Pat Lam recruited 3 or 4 genuinely world class players and then built his team around them? We knew that too.
Why pick from 2016 apart from the fact that Hoops retired from rugby and was given a coaching role by Ford. The malaise has been in the coaching since SM left in 2012 with one good year in the league 2015. We have had, since SM, Gary Gold who briefly was successful and then elevated to DoR when results were indifferent and he was pushed out by Ford and was sacked after one good season for Blackadder. Mediocrity has existed for a long time before Hoops.
Whether it’s Hoops or someone new there is a lot of rebuilding work to be done to correct the malaise apart from two or three years of marginal success since professionalism.
Quote:CoochieCoo
Whether it’s Hoops or someone new there is a lot of rebuilding work to be done to correct the malaise apart from two or three years of marginal success since professionalism.
From what I've seen I don't think that TM or SH are the ones to lead the quantum shift needed. Both seem like really nice guys but maybe that's part of the problem?
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Griff
Squad wise it’s talented what we are shy is at least 3 coaches we have no named, defence, skills and forwards coaches I know Haley, RD, ML help out in these areas but surely we need names and dedicated coaches who are responsible for these areas. The coaching staff are spread way to thin IMO.
Agree, and why hasn’t Bath invested in specialist coaches ?..........perhaps because TM is an accountant
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:CoochieCoo
Whether it’s Hoops or someone new there is a lot of rebuilding work to be done to correct the malaise apart from two or three years of marginal success since professionalism.
From what I've seen I don't think that TM or SH are the ones to lead the quantum shift needed. Both seem like really nice guys but maybe that's part of the problem?
That's a very good point Matt, I'm reminded of a phrase of Bob's vocabulary we need a 'bit of dog' about us. That's in our play but also leadership, I simply can't imagine the side getting an Alex Ferguson hair dryer treatment at half time.
It extends to Ewells as well, I've never seen him showing overt leadership on field. It may be that its seen as too 'Neanderthal' (accepting their intelligence of course), but some times players need a bit of fear of their leader, 100% respect is academically correct but rugby is littered with words like aggression, brutality, power and smashing the opposition. Would a bit of dog go amiss?
Quote:malco
Atwood makes contact with the head of Stuart and forces him off. No card. Dunn makes accidental contact with the head of Randrada in a tackle, red card. Bath screwed twice over. Total farce.
I replayed the Attwood/Stuart tackle incident.Head contact if there was any was fleeting, so unsurprising it was not picked up.
Dunn's reactive tackle we may sympathise with, but the protocols were accurately applied- no excuse I'm afraid.
PG
For me the game turned finally on the yellow card. I can’t agree that anyone, Bath or not, should be yellow carded for not being as good as their opponent. Especially if a try is scored. In this case there had only been I reset of the scrum in that passage of play so hardly a case of serial offending.
Should we now if a winger loses a foot race to the try with his opposite number send him to the bin because he just wasn’t as fast?
Don’t get me wrong I think Bristol were deserved winners and had the confidence to play running rugby on a filthy day but the law is in this case an ass.
Should we now if a winger loses a foot race to the try with his opposite number send him to the bin because he just wasn’t as fast?
Don’t get me wrong I think Bristol were deserved winners and had the confidence to play running rugby on a filthy day but the law is in this case an ass.
Quote:P G TipsQuote:malco
Atwood makes contact with the head of Stuart and forces him off. No card. Dunn makes accidental contact with the head of Randrada in a tackle, red card. Bath screwed twice over. Total farce.
I replayed the Attwood/Stuart tackle incident.Head contact if there was any was fleeting, so unsurprising it was not picked up.
Dunn's reactive tackle we may sympathise with, but the protocols were accurately applied- no excuse I'm afraid.
PG
Well, clearly there was head contact because he failed an HIA as a result of it. The only part of Attwood that could have made that contact was his shoulder.
Quote:Disunited
Apologies if I missed a comment about this or indeed I'm mixing this up with Will Stuart but didn't Bailey go off in the first half for a HIA due to a 'shoulder to shoulder' contact? I didn't see the contact but wonder how it happened.
Bailey's knock occured when he legally tackled Hughes. No foul play anywhere there. Hip on head I think.
I suspect we all agree that there are issues in the coaching set up, with key specialists missing.
We so need a coach that can make us at least the sum of our parts.
We so need a coach that can make us at least the sum of our parts.
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:Disunited
Apologies if I missed a comment about this or indeed I'm mixing this up with Will Stuart but didn't Bailey go off in the first half for a HIA due to a 'shoulder to shoulder' contact? I didn't see the contact but wonder how it happened.
Bailey's knock occured when he legally tackled Hughes. No foul play anywhere there. Hip on head I think.
That what I like about Bailey, he isn't afraid to have a go at the big aggressive players, he comes of worse but the like of Hughes, Piatau, Tuisue don't phase him.
I think all things considered OB has had a very good last six weeks.
It was big step up for him and he has made that step.
Very, very few players step up and shine............many step up and fail.................he has stepped up and done OK..................his next phase, as his confidence and awareness grows is to take a little more on himself.
It was big step up for him and he has made that step.
Very, very few players step up and shine............many step up and fail.................he has stepped up and done OK..................his next phase, as his confidence and awareness grows is to take a little more on himself.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:CoochieCoo
Whether it’s Hoops or someone new there is a lot of rebuilding work to be done to correct the malaise apart from two or three years of marginal success since professionalism.
From what I've seen I don't think that TM or SH are the ones to lead the quantum shift needed. Both seem like really nice guys but maybe that's part of the problem?
+1
TM was given a job he didn’t have the qualifications or experience to do and he in turn appointed SH who isn’t qualified or experienced to be DOR.
Hardly surprising that Bath are falling behind and won’t challenge for the title whilst they remain in place.
Bristol have shown that it only takes a couple of years to build a potentially title winning side in a couple of years if you get the right coaching setup.
People saying we need better players, or specialist coaches, are missing the point.
The entire club environment needs an overhaul.
There's a reason why quality players like Watson or Faletau aren't at their best in club colours, or why we go through successive coaches with no success... the culture is poor, and that's PRECISELY what Lam has brought in for Bristol and why they've left us in the dust.
There's no easy fix, we won't be winning anything for a while longer unless drastic changes are made. Hopefully, without Tarquin making them. It was idiotic to throw Hooper in at the deep end with zero experience or support.
Short term wise, some heavy duty carriers will help, even though we seem to have no idea how we want to play. We constantly lost the ball after ten seconds of possession as per usual yesterday but I've given up hope of that ever being picked up or fixed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:09:11:31:58 by ballsout.
The entire club environment needs an overhaul.
There's a reason why quality players like Watson or Faletau aren't at their best in club colours, or why we go through successive coaches with no success... the culture is poor, and that's PRECISELY what Lam has brought in for Bristol and why they've left us in the dust.
There's no easy fix, we won't be winning anything for a while longer unless drastic changes are made. Hopefully, without Tarquin making them. It was idiotic to throw Hooper in at the deep end with zero experience or support.
Short term wise, some heavy duty carriers will help, even though we seem to have no idea how we want to play. We constantly lost the ball after ten seconds of possession as per usual yesterday but I've given up hope of that ever being picked up or fixed.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:09:11:31:58 by ballsout.
Positives from yesterday was that we were able to keep the Bristol backs shackled.
Negatives we lost the game upfront, and not for the first time this season.
Personally I think Hooper is doing an OK job, its not an instant success that some would want but he has focused on the foundations, building a defensive, set piece orientated team, which I'm fully behind.
As for the posters comparing us against other teams who have seemingly overtaken us, I say its a difficult comparison to make. Bristol, Exeter, Sale, LI and Tigers have gone through season(s) of rebuilding and mass recruitment - where we've stayed around the middle of the table without a large change in personnel.
What lets us down is consistency, as someone else pointed out what appears to our strength one game quickly seems to fade away and be exposed in another game 4 or 5 weeks later. We don't appear to be able to build on anything, we're constantly having to go back to basics as soon as something else is introduced into our game. This isn't a new thing, I remember seeing similar cycles of proficiency under Ford, then Blackadder.
If I was in Hoopers position, I think I would focus my selection on players who don't seem to get injured, or called up. Focus on getting a consistent XV who play "Bath's" game.
Negatives we lost the game upfront, and not for the first time this season.
Personally I think Hooper is doing an OK job, its not an instant success that some would want but he has focused on the foundations, building a defensive, set piece orientated team, which I'm fully behind.
As for the posters comparing us against other teams who have seemingly overtaken us, I say its a difficult comparison to make. Bristol, Exeter, Sale, LI and Tigers have gone through season(s) of rebuilding and mass recruitment - where we've stayed around the middle of the table without a large change in personnel.
What lets us down is consistency, as someone else pointed out what appears to our strength one game quickly seems to fade away and be exposed in another game 4 or 5 weeks later. We don't appear to be able to build on anything, we're constantly having to go back to basics as soon as something else is introduced into our game. This isn't a new thing, I remember seeing similar cycles of proficiency under Ford, then Blackadder.
If I was in Hoopers position, I think I would focus my selection on players who don't seem to get injured, or called up. Focus on getting a consistent XV who play "Bath's" game.
So what you are saying BO is that Bruce Craig is the problem.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:TG Kesmo
For me the game turned finally on the yellow card. I can’t agree that anyone, Bath or not, should be yellow carded for not being as good as their opponent. Especially if a try is scored. In this case there had only been I reset of the scrum in that passage of play so hardly a case of serial offending.
Should we now if a winger loses a foot race to the try with his opposite number send him to the bin because he just wasn’t as fast?
Don’t get me wrong I think Bristol were deserved winners and had the confidence to play running rugby on a filthy day but the law is in this case an ass.
I completely agree with this.
It's not sour grapes about yest, it's just something people have been commenting on for years and nothing gets done about it.
Depowering a struggling scrum adds nothing to the spectacle and is plain daft. The double whammy of conceding a pen try and getting a yellow is silly I think and very inconsistently applied.
Tbf I was pleased to see Pearce allow us to be frogmarched back one time without giving a pen. You are allowed to be outscrummed and not concede a pen but that is v rarely acknowledged.
Quote:ballsout
People saying we need better players, or specialist coaches, are missing the point.
The entire club environment needs an overhaul.
There's a reason why quality players like Watson or Faletau aren't at their best in club colours, or why we go through successive coaches with no success... the culture is poor, and that's PRECISELY what Lam has brought in for Bristol and why they've left us in the dust.
There's no easy fix, we won't be winning anything for a while longer unless drastic changes are made. Hopefully, without Tarquin making them. It was idiotic to throw Hooper in at the deep end with zero experience or support.
Short term wise, some heavy duty carriers will help, even though we seem to have no idea how we want to play. We constantly lost the ball after ten seconds of possession as per usual yesterday but I've given up hope of that ever being picked up or fixed.
I am not sure I get it.
You seem to lay all Bristols success at the door of pat lam. You always say it doesn't need to take time as it took lam no time to show big strides. Why is there no easy fix for us if we got the right man in?
I assume you mean you have zero faith is us getting the right man in because tarquin/Bruce are committed to sticking with hoops as the main man? Hence we are destined to have a poor culture and poor performance in the short to medium term?
Agree re more heavy duty ball carriers. We miss guys who can make 5 yards in heavy traffic.
Quote:malco
Here is the Attwood/Stuart incident. [twitter.com]
I still think it looks very innocuous from the footage tbh but the point is it must have been shoulder to head and it has put a key man out the game. Bit of a sickener when you are getting people sent off most weeks and that doesn't get picked up.
Quote:CoochieCoo
The malaise has been in the coaching since SM left in 2012 with one good year in the league 2015.
Good point, Coochie. While admiring yesterday Bristol's ability to move the ball wide accurately and regularly switch the point of attack, I also thought their close quarter offloading very Meehan -like.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quote:charlieboaQuote:TG Kesmo
For me the game turned finally on the yellow card. I can’t agree that anyone, Bath or not, should be yellow carded for not being as good as their opponent. Especially if a try is scored. In this case there had only been I reset of the scrum in that passage of play so hardly a case of serial offending.
Should we now if a winger loses a foot race to the try with his opposite number send him to the bin because he just wasn’t as fast?
Don’t get me wrong I think Bristol were deserved winners and had the confidence to play running rugby on a filthy day but the law is in this case an ass.
I completely agree with this.
It's not sour grapes about yest, it's just something people have been commenting on for years and nothing gets done about it.
Depowering a struggling scrum adds nothing to the spectacle and is plain daft. The double whammy of conceding a pen try and getting a yellow is silly I think and very inconsistently applied.
Tbf I was pleased to see Pearce allow us to be frogmarched back one time without giving a pen. You are allowed to be outscrummed and not concede a pen but that is v rarely acknowledged.
The reffing of the scrum changed after Sinckler had a word with the ref. What he said was very clever he said let us play an advantage we are winning the ball - putting in the refs mind that they were winning the ball every time and making him more inclined to give the penalties than be told by Sinckler to play on. This very neatly played Luke Pearce who doesn’t like to be told.
Quote:sid the seagull
SH joins coaching set-up 2016.
SH is DoR 2019.
League positions :
2016 - 9th
2017- 5th
2018 - 6th
2019- 6th
2020 - 4th
2021 - 7th*
No discernible influence or positive trajectory.
Overall mediocre.
Pat Lam made DoR 2017:
2018 - Div2 1st
2019- (Div 1*) 9th
2020 - 3rd
2012- 1st*
I rest my case.
HOP
You missed Euro Challenge Cup winners 2019-2020
Quote:TG Kesmo
For me the game turned finally on the yellow card. I can’t agree that anyone, Bath or not, should be yellow carded for not being as good as their opponent. Especially if a try is scored. In this case there had only been I reset of the scrum in that passage of play so hardly a case of serial offending.
Should we now if a winger loses a foot race to the try with his opposite number send him to the bin because he just wasn’t as fast?
Don’t get me wrong I think Bristol were deserved winners and had the confidence to play running rugby on a filthy day but the law is in this case an ass.
If the winger decides to trip the player to compensate for his lack of speed, then yes.
My real concern is the way we have performed particularly in the last 3 games. To be totally honest there was only one side yesterday who deserved to win, we looked bereft of any attacking ability and our pack bar McNally, Reid & Bayliss were well substandard.
I wonder if Tom Dunn subconsciously feels he has throw himself about that bit more due to the lack of anything from his pack and that overtrying is the reason for his ill discipline.
If I am honest I am seriously concerned for next season, our recruitment has been underwhelming for a number of years - it is I not about getting big names in it is about building a squad, the way Judge capitulated as soon as he came on was frightening especially given his fresh legs and to be fair Schoeman until that point has held his own against Sinkler - I believe Judges inability in the scrum unsettled the balance and that is why Schoeman suffered.
I am sorry to say I am really not convinced about Hooper I thought I was seeing signs of improvement but the last 3 weeks it is like he has gone backwards - watching both him and Hatley yesterday prior to that 5M scrum with Bhatti stripped off - neither seemed to have an urgency to get Bhatti on prior to the scrum if nothing else it was fresh legs - but instead they just watched Schoeman and the scrum be demolished and get a yellow card. Reminded me of earlier in the season when they allowed Joe C to have an absolute shocker but let it just carry on to the detriment of the team.
Things need to change and fast or I fear for next season - let alone staying in the top 8 this season. We have Sale on Friday whose front 5 are IMHO a lot stronger than Bristols - Stuart will be touch and go given 6 day turnround to be fit for that one.
We have some real positives in the Bailey, Reid, Bayliss, Tom D G and Max Omjoh - the trouble is there is no cohesion and recently I just don't understand what Hoopers game plan is and clearly the team don't have a clue either - Something has got to change.
I wonder if Tom Dunn subconsciously feels he has throw himself about that bit more due to the lack of anything from his pack and that overtrying is the reason for his ill discipline.
If I am honest I am seriously concerned for next season, our recruitment has been underwhelming for a number of years - it is I not about getting big names in it is about building a squad, the way Judge capitulated as soon as he came on was frightening especially given his fresh legs and to be fair Schoeman until that point has held his own against Sinkler - I believe Judges inability in the scrum unsettled the balance and that is why Schoeman suffered.
I am sorry to say I am really not convinced about Hooper I thought I was seeing signs of improvement but the last 3 weeks it is like he has gone backwards - watching both him and Hatley yesterday prior to that 5M scrum with Bhatti stripped off - neither seemed to have an urgency to get Bhatti on prior to the scrum if nothing else it was fresh legs - but instead they just watched Schoeman and the scrum be demolished and get a yellow card. Reminded me of earlier in the season when they allowed Joe C to have an absolute shocker but let it just carry on to the detriment of the team.
Things need to change and fast or I fear for next season - let alone staying in the top 8 this season. We have Sale on Friday whose front 5 are IMHO a lot stronger than Bristols - Stuart will be touch and go given 6 day turnround to be fit for that one.
We have some real positives in the Bailey, Reid, Bayliss, Tom D G and Max Omjoh - the trouble is there is no cohesion and recently I just don't understand what Hoopers game plan is and clearly the team don't have a clue either - Something has got to change.
Repeating myself here, but I'm amazed that it's Hooper getting all the grief. My first questions would be about the coaching team. I don't know exactly what SH's brief is. There are some long term foundations being established that give me some cause for optimism. As everyone can see, we lack cohesion, a discernible game plan, leadership and yes, at times 'dog' for want of a better word. Much of this lies with the coaches and senior players. It's been like this for ages. When Hatley was forwards coach we started to assemble a pack that won us games. He's made Head Coach and we've gone backwards. Is he lacking adequate support, is he head coach material or better left to focus solely on the forwards? As I never hear from any of the coaches I'm even more in the dark. It seems Hooper is put out there to take the flak and offer his dull 'manager speak'. In football managers are challenged and face scrutiny when their sides underachieve but in rugby the post-match stuff is so gentle, almost like a few prepared clichés are trundled out unchallenged, job done.
Good points Tom but the problem is as DoR Hooper has control of the coaching set up and its clear there are too many areas that need attention with not enough coaches to improve those areas.
To go from a dominant pack with line out and scrum nailed to a failing line out and only one effective front row is simply going backwards. Its not as though the switch of attention to the backs is working wonders either.
Question is why are we scrimping and scraping with coaches? A minimalist coaching team simply isn't working.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
To go from a dominant pack with line out and scrum nailed to a failing line out and only one effective front row is simply going backwards. Its not as though the switch of attention to the backs is working wonders either.
Question is why are we scrimping and scraping with coaches? A minimalist coaching team simply isn't working.
Stuart Hooper is DOR surely ANY issues within the rugby department......the buck stops with him ?
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:shipwrecked
Question is why are we scrimping and scraping with coaches? A minimalist coaching team simply isn't working.
The answer is with TM he holds the cheque book, probably why SH is DOR instead of a more experienced person who would be more expensive, as would more specialist coaches.
Just a thought........IMHO
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:KingoftheHillQuote:TG Kesmo
For me the game turned finally on the yellow card. I can’t agree that anyone, Bath or not, should be yellow carded for not being as good as their opponent. Especially if a try is scored. In this case there had only been I reset of the scrum in that passage of play so hardly a case of serial offending.
Should we now if a winger loses a foot race to the try with his opposite number send him to the bin because he just wasn’t as fast?
Don’t get me wrong I think Bristol were deserved winners and had the confidence to play running rugby on a filthy day but the law is in this case an ass.
If the winger decides to trip the player to compensate for his lack of speed, then yes.
The point that I was trying to make is that the weaker prop hasn’t really committed a foul he has just been outmuscled and folded. Your example is totally not the same thing it involves deliberate foul play which should always be penalised and carded.
Quote:KingoftheHill
If the winger decides to trip the player to compensate for his lack of speed, then yes.
That sounds like a good point, but I don’t think the analogy entirely works. With the scrum you get pretty much all of the advantages as long as the ball comes out on your side. I can see the case for a penalty try. But the yellow card is absolutely ridiculous. If the prop is trying to prevent a try being scored by dropping, then they get punished by awarding the try. Given that it’s practically impossible to know unequivocally who is responsible for dropping a scrum, double jeopardy is over the top. Trailing a leg is clear and unequivocal foul play.
Quote:This would be my take on it. Our coaching team isn't good enough. If it's SH saying he's happy with what we've got then OK, he's wrong (IMHO of course), but I'd have thought our Head Coach needs to be questioned more, and yes, TM. Evidence of just a bit of accountability would be welcome. Instead, SH comes on and offers the obvious, the interviewer/journos scribble it down (Or use notes from previous games), Somerset Live reports that we were disappointing and gives two thirds of the team 6/10 and the whole process is repeated the following week. It's all rather comfortable, particularly as the absence of fans protects the club from some of the growing frustration.Old Bath TubQuote:shipwrecked
Question is why are we scrimping and scraping with coaches? A minimalist coaching team simply isn't working.
The answer is with TM he holds the cheque book, probably why SH is DOR instead of a more experienced person who would be more expensive, as would more specialist coaches.
Just a thought........IMHO
The other factor is without relegation the hierarchy don't need to spend money on the squad and can spend more attention on stadium development. Counter productive yes but does the club get more revenue from finishing 5th or 12th?
Quote:by
Personally I think Hooper is doing an OK job, its not an instant success that some would want but he has focused on the foundations, building a defensive, set piece orientated team, which I'm fully behind.
As for the posters comparing us against other teams who have seemingly overtaken us, I say its a difficult comparison to make. Bristol, Exeter, Sale, LI and Tigers have gone through season(s) of rebuilding and mass recruitment - where we've stayed around the middle of the table without a large change in personnel.
You applaud Hooper for turning us into a defensive setpiece based team. How has the defence been this season? Do you think conceding nearly 90 points over two games to our neighbours equates to a strong defence? How is our setpiece? Even when we win lineouts we RARELY put teams under pressure and steal theirs. The scrum is often a shambles. Even with Beno and Stuart. Putting both of those deficiencies aside, if you want to play that kind of setpiece oriented rugby, your basics have to be spot on. Ours are anything but.
You say it’s unfair to compare us to other teams... Bristol under Lam got better and achieved success almost instantly. Same with Exeter, they started challenging and working their way up the table as soon as they were promoted. Same with Tigers under Borrhwick, it’s not taken long and they’ll probably win a trophy in a couple weeks.
Quote:charlieboaQuote:ballsout
People saying we need better players, or specialist coaches, are missing the point.
The entire club environment needs an overhaul.
There's a reason why quality players like Watson or Faletau aren't at their best in club colours, or why we go through successive coaches with no success... the culture is poor, and that's PRECISELY what Lam has brought in for Bristol and why they've left us in the dust.
There's no easy fix, we won't be winning anything for a while longer unless drastic changes are made. Hopefully, without Tarquin making them. It was idiotic to throw Hooper in at the deep end with zero experience or support.
Short term wise, some heavy duty carriers will help, even though we seem to have no idea how we want to play. We constantly lost the ball after ten seconds of possession as per usual yesterday but I've given up hope of that ever being picked up or fixed.
I am not sure I get it.
You seem to lay all Bristols success at the door of pat lam. You always say it doesn't need to take time as it took lam no time to show big strides. Why is there no easy fix for us if we got the right man in?
I assume you mean you have zero faith is us getting the right man in because tarquin/Bruce are committed to sticking with hoops as the main man? Hence we are destined to have a poor culture and poor performance in the short to medium term?
Agree re more heavy duty ball carriers. We miss guys who can make 5 yards in heavy traffic.
Exactly, it CAN be a quick fix (by quick I mean 2-3 years) but it won’t happen. Craig and Tarquin are committed to Hooper and Tarquin isn’t about to resign. That’s what I mean. We’ll just keep stumbling along year after year. The occasional win that’ll prompt “Oh isn’t BO quiet” comments, before we lose the next five. Happens every time.
Anyway the Montpellier shambles and yesterday’s loss won’t help obviously. Morale will be at an all time low, especially losing to that Bristol team with all the whooping, celebrating and rubbing our noses in it.
Quote:Old Bath Tub
Stuart Hooper is DOR surely ANY issues within the rugby department......the buck stops with him ?
No, the buck stops with the person who appointed him in the first place, throwing him in at the deep end with no support, our CEO.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:09:21:15:42 by ballsout.
Quote:ballsoutQuote:Old Bath Tub
Stuart Hooper is DOR surely ANY issues within the rugby department......the buck stops with him ?
No, the buck stops with the person who idiotically appointed him in the first place, throwing him in at the deep end with no support, our CEO.
You may not agree with his decision but the language you used to describe his decision is unacceptable. Please take this back as it is abuse of players and management which is against our rules.
“ -- No personal abuse whatsoever of other posters, Bath players or management. Zero tolerance. For the avoidance of doubt, criticism of a player's playing abilities is NOT abuse.”
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:09:21:03:59 by CoochieCoo.
Go on cooch ban him. Ban him real good. I’ve seen BO called worse and you do like to mock him but whatever. Just ban him. You know you want to.
I'm just seeking clarity CC as you're in a position between a rock and a hard place, but if a decision is described as idiotic are you calling that person an idiot? I don't think I'm an idiot, but I've made many decisions in life that go beyond idiocy. Don't wish to be disruptive-just a polite query!
As far as I am concerned TM’s decision to appoint Hoops was made very carefully and with due diligence and to infer that he is an idiot is abuse. As stated everyone has a right to criticise the decision but being abusive is not what this message board is for.
In my experience of life in general, there is no one person who is to blame when things go wrong no matter how high up they are in the ladder. I think that works in sport as much as anything else.
When you see an exec resign from a commercial board, yes they take responsibility and leave but that doesn't mean that others around them or below them are exempt and did a good job.
Just trying to avoid this thread going downhill by applying a bit of common sense.
When you see an exec resign from a commercial board, yes they take responsibility and leave but that doesn't mean that others around them or below them are exempt and did a good job.
Just trying to avoid this thread going downhill by applying a bit of common sense.
Quote:charlieboaQuote:malco
Here is the Attwood/Stuart incident. [twitter.com]
I still think it looks very innocuous from the footage tbh but the point is it must have been shoulder to head and it has put a key man out the game. Bit of a sickener when you are getting people sent off most weeks and that doesn't get picked up.
I honestly thought (I’m a Bristol fan by the way so probably one eyed) that the head injury was caused by several players driving Stuart’s head into the ground not seen in that clip. He seemed ok after the initial contact from Atwood which looked like top of chest initial contact then moving up and glancing his chin. I guess if there’s a case then it will be picked up by the disciplinary process which I appreciate would be no comfort at all for you guys after that result.
See you all next season.
Quote:Since 1888Quote:charlieboaQuote:malco
Here is the Attwood/Stuart incident. [twitter.com]
I still think it looks very innocuous from the footage tbh but the point is it must have been shoulder to head and it has put a key man out the game. Bit of a sickener when you are getting people sent off most weeks and that doesn't get picked up.
I honestly thought (I’m a Bristol fan by the way so probably one eyed) that the head injury was caused by several players driving Stuart’s head into the ground not seen in that clip. He seemed ok after the initial contact from Atwood which looked like top of chest initial contact then moving up and glancing his chin. I guess if there’s a case then it will be picked up by the disciplinary process which I appreciate would be no comfort at all for you guys after that result.
See you all next season.
Exactly what I thought when I saw the clip, I didn't see the game so didn't see any other footage.
what's the news on Stuart?
heard he went straight to the hospital
fingers crossed just precautionary
heard he went straight to the hospital
fingers crossed just precautionary
Agree! Think it's frustration that we've fallen foul of the way the laws are being interpreted so there's a sense that other sides are getting away with things. I saw nothing in the clip that DA should be cited for.
Is it also possible something happened to him before what is seen in the clip?
Quote:CoochieCoo
As far as I am concerned TM’s decision to appoint Hoops was made very carefully and with due diligence and to infer that he is an idiot is abuse. As stated everyone has a right to criticise the decision but being abusive is not what this message board is for.
Don't put words in my mouth, I never once suggested or inferred the man himself was an idiot. Just that that one particular decision he and Bruce made was. An important distinction.
You only had to read pretty much every reply on this message board when it was announced to see he/they might have considered his options a tad more carefully.
Quote:ballsoutQuote:CoochieCoo
As far as I am concerned TM’s decision to appoint Hoops was made very carefully and with due diligence and to infer that he is an idiot is abuse. As stated everyone has a right to criticise the decision but being abusive is not what this message board is for.
Don't put words in my mouth, I never once suggested or inferred the man himself was an idiot. Just that that one particular decision he and Bruce made was. An important distinction.
You only had to read pretty much every reply on this message board when it was announced to see he/they might have considered his options a tad more carefully.
Thanks for your response.
Your post said “No, the buck stops with the person who idiotically appointed him in the first place, throwing him in at the deep end with no support, our CEO.”
There is no doubt in my mind that this statement is a nasty slur on our CEO and abusive. However you have explained that you did not mean to infer that he is.
It’s easy to sit in your armchair throwing rotten tomatoes left right and centre without knowing the full story. The Management have a difficult job as it is and as I said everyone has a right to criticise but one has to be careful with colourful adverbs such as “idiotically” when throwing your darts at everyone.
The decision to appoint Hoops was taken with a lot of background information and advice from external sources, I am informed. All decisions, if they do not work out are regretful but that does not make them idiotic.
I think everyone is trying to put their finger on the pulse of why we are not being successful, but it is incredibly hard to do when we are not privy to all the conversations and analysis.
Maybe Tom Dunn has been training particularly hard at keeping his tackle height down, but made a wrong decision through trying too hard - we do not know.
Maybe Juan Schoeman was getting beaten in the scrum because his flanker was supporting him enough - we do not know.
Maybe Tarquin is giving Hooper and the coaching staff a huge amount of support behind the scenes - we do not know.
Unless you are lucky enough to be inside the inner circle and know someone at the club we are all speculating - but that's OK!
It is fun to try and solve the puzzle, we can speculate on what the fixes appear to be. That's what makes these forums fun. All we can do is our view point (positive / negative) and enjoy the debate.
For what it's worth, I don't think Tarquin will go until the stadium is sorted. He appears too central to that project for us to remove him.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:10:09:17:55 by BathSalmon.
Maybe Tom Dunn has been training particularly hard at keeping his tackle height down, but made a wrong decision through trying too hard - we do not know.
Maybe Juan Schoeman was getting beaten in the scrum because his flanker was supporting him enough - we do not know.
Maybe Tarquin is giving Hooper and the coaching staff a huge amount of support behind the scenes - we do not know.
Unless you are lucky enough to be inside the inner circle and know someone at the club we are all speculating - but that's OK!
It is fun to try and solve the puzzle, we can speculate on what the fixes appear to be. That's what makes these forums fun. All we can do is our view point (positive / negative) and enjoy the debate.
For what it's worth, I don't think Tarquin will go until the stadium is sorted. He appears too central to that project for us to remove him.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:10:09:17:55 by BathSalmon.
Quote:BathSalmon
For what it's worth, I don't think Tarquin will go until the stadium is sorted. He appears too central to that project for us to remove him.
2068? I don't think that it would be too difficult to change the TM as head of the stadium project, I work in the area and on long projects such as this the client rep changes all the time. Turley should be driving actual the application forward (subject to legals of course).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I just want to re-iterate as I see it guys - Lots of people continually stating Schoeman was the issue - I know it seems that way but I don't see it like that at all.
Schoeman was handling Sinkler well prior to Stuart going off - hence why Sinkler was whinging as he always does when he does not get his own way.
The issue for me was squarely on Judge who immediately struggled against Yann Thomas - Judge came on and completely de-stabilised what was a very steady scrum. Clearly Dunn was having to subsidise Judge which left Schoeman with too much to do.
The front row is all about stability and balance and as soon as that is compromised as it was on Saturday you tend to get the debacle we all witnessed - but IMHO Schoeman was not the issue - it was Judge and Schoeman appears to have been a decent signing again IMHO.
As for the issues - It is unpleasant and may seem unfair but Hooper is DoR and that comes with it responsibility for the playing side and coaching - there is clearly an inbalance in our coaching set up and we need to address things very quickly as we have gone backwards to how we started the season and are in free fall - very much in danger of losing a top 8 place.
Our coaches including Hooper appear to be absolutely clueless at present and I am concerned at their inability to recognise issues and intervene to rectify them - they just appear to sit back and wait for the players to sort it - unfortunately sometimes they can't and it needs an interaction from the DoR/HC - no better example than Borthwick in the Tigers v Ulster match.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:10:10:05:12 by Ali1969.
Schoeman was handling Sinkler well prior to Stuart going off - hence why Sinkler was whinging as he always does when he does not get his own way.
The issue for me was squarely on Judge who immediately struggled against Yann Thomas - Judge came on and completely de-stabilised what was a very steady scrum. Clearly Dunn was having to subsidise Judge which left Schoeman with too much to do.
The front row is all about stability and balance and as soon as that is compromised as it was on Saturday you tend to get the debacle we all witnessed - but IMHO Schoeman was not the issue - it was Judge and Schoeman appears to have been a decent signing again IMHO.
As for the issues - It is unpleasant and may seem unfair but Hooper is DoR and that comes with it responsibility for the playing side and coaching - there is clearly an inbalance in our coaching set up and we need to address things very quickly as we have gone backwards to how we started the season and are in free fall - very much in danger of losing a top 8 place.
Our coaches including Hooper appear to be absolutely clueless at present and I am concerned at their inability to recognise issues and intervene to rectify them - they just appear to sit back and wait for the players to sort it - unfortunately sometimes they can't and it needs an interaction from the DoR/HC - no better example than Borthwick in the Tigers v Ulster match.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:10:10:05:12 by Ali1969.
I am all for 'build steady foundations', 'Rome wasn't built in a day' and 'from acorns grow oaks' etc. but we appear to be actually regressing at the moment which is a big concern.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:BathSalmon
For what it's worth, I don't think Tarquin will go until the stadium is sorted. He appears too central to that project for us to remove him.
2068? I don't think that it would be too difficult to change the TM as head of the stadium project, I work in the area and on long projects such as this the client rep changes all the time. Turley should be driving actual the application forward (subject to legals of course).
I am sure Turley are working on the new design without the car park. As I said on the other thread there is still one legal hurdle to jump. The hearing in October to which the charity has joined with the club has huge implications on the future of the Rec and indeed the charity and Banes.
well the wheels are starting to come off for hooper and his coaching team as their strategy for a forward- dominated game is collapsing around them. bath seem all but incapable of scoring through the hands. competent coaching for the backs appears non existent.
at the beginning of this season i had quins down as a potential relegation candidate. that was before they dumped gustard. since the backs-focussed aussie billy millard stepped up as DoR the transformation has been astonishing. same players. different team. wasps have scored more tries than any other team in the prem this season. they play an attractive flowing game that is totally beyond bath. for the hooperistas on this site, take a few minutes to check out millard’s CV on the wasps website. it is amazing what he has done. then compare it to hooper’s blank piece of paper and wonder why were in such a mess.
and that is not all. quins also have the services of attack and backs coach nick evans, arguably the best 10 in the world in his pomp- except that his route to the all blacks jersey was blocked by dan carter. now this kiwi- aussie duo are ripping defences apart with marcus smith their weapon of choice. and it has all happened almost over night once the dull forward-centric culture of john kingston and paul gustard was disposed of.
we need to do the same. get rid of the zero-experienced ex -tight fives who are masquerading as coaches and who are blocking our path to rehabilitation. bring some quality backs coaching into farleigh house, remove tarquin macdonald's dead hand from the tiller. Release the players from the present drudgery of this suffocating set up, and give the fans some hope at long last.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:10:13:29:43 by bardofavon.
at the beginning of this season i had quins down as a potential relegation candidate. that was before they dumped gustard. since the backs-focussed aussie billy millard stepped up as DoR the transformation has been astonishing. same players. different team. wasps have scored more tries than any other team in the prem this season. they play an attractive flowing game that is totally beyond bath. for the hooperistas on this site, take a few minutes to check out millard’s CV on the wasps website. it is amazing what he has done. then compare it to hooper’s blank piece of paper and wonder why were in such a mess.
and that is not all. quins also have the services of attack and backs coach nick evans, arguably the best 10 in the world in his pomp- except that his route to the all blacks jersey was blocked by dan carter. now this kiwi- aussie duo are ripping defences apart with marcus smith their weapon of choice. and it has all happened almost over night once the dull forward-centric culture of john kingston and paul gustard was disposed of.
we need to do the same. get rid of the zero-experienced ex -tight fives who are masquerading as coaches and who are blocking our path to rehabilitation. bring some quality backs coaching into farleigh house, remove tarquin macdonald's dead hand from the tiller. Release the players from the present drudgery of this suffocating set up, and give the fans some hope at long last.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:10:13:29:43 by bardofavon.
Channeling some strong Bob Dylan jacket-notes punctuation style there bard! And a couple of salient points in amongst it.
Quote:bardofavon
get rid of the zero-experienced ex -tight fives who are masquerading as coaches and who are blocking our path to rehabilitation.
Not sure that the Bath coaching team could be regarded as having zero experience? Hatley has quite a bit, Charteris is an RFU lvl 3 with 74 caps who knows his way around a lineout. In fact we do have experienced back coaches as well, Dempsey was lauded on his arrival. The problem doesn't seem to be experience but rather abilities to play a rounded / multi faceted game (i.e pull the forwards and backs together).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:bardofavon
well the wheels are starting to come off for hooper and his coaching team as their strategy for a forward- dominated game is collapsing around them. bath seem all but incapable of scoring through the hands. competent coaching for the backs appears non existent.
at the beginning of this season i had quins down as a potential relegation candidate. that was before they dumped gustard. since the backs-focussed aussie billy millard stepped up as DoR the transformation has been astonishing. same players. different team. wasps have scored more tries than any other team in the prem this season. they play an attractive flowing game that is totally beyond bath. for the hooperistas on this site, take a few minutes to check out millard’s CV on the wasps website. it is amazing what he has done. then compare it to hooper’s blank piece of paper and wonder why were in such a mess.
and that is not all. quins also have the services of attack and backs coach nick evans, arguably the best 10 in the world in his pomp- except that his route to the all blacks jersey was blocked by dan carter. now this kiwi- aussie duo are ripping defences apart with marcus smith their weapon of choice. and it has all happened almost over night once the dull forward-centric culture of john kingston and paul gustard was disposed of.
we need to do the same. get rid of the zero-experienced ex -tight fives who are masquerading as coaches and who are blocking our path to rehabilitation. bring some quality backs coaching into farleigh house, remove tarquin macdonald's dead hand from the tiller. Release the players from the present drudgery of this suffocating set up, and give the fans some hope at long last.
This.
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:bardofavon
get rid of the zero-experienced ex -tight fives who are masquerading as coaches and who are blocking our path to rehabilitation.
Not sure that the Bath coaching team could be regarded as having zero experience? Hatley has quite a bit, Charteris is an RFU lvl 3 with 74 caps who knows his way around a lineout. In fact we do have experienced back coaches as well, Dempsey was lauded on his arrival. The problem doesn't seem to be experience but rather abilities to play a rounded / multi faceted game (i.e pull the forwards and backs together).
Hooper, Ryan Davis and Mark Lilley?
The imbalance, callowness and shall we say debatable quality impacts far more than on field rugby. It sets the standard for the whole club, and it's that foundation and environment that's the reason for Bath's continued failure.
Any news on Will Stuart's injury, by the way? I had heard that he had been taken to hospital, but nothing since then.
Does beg the question how the challenge that ended with him leaving the field for an HIA, and subsequent injury, wasn't reviewed?
I thought all head contact had to be reviewed by the TMO, or is that only when it's a Bath player that makes contact?
Does beg the question how the challenge that ended with him leaving the field for an HIA, and subsequent injury, wasn't reviewed?
I thought all head contact had to be reviewed by the TMO, or is that only when it's a Bath player that makes contact?
Stuart HIA: don’t think caused by the DA impact which to my eyes looked fully shoulder to shoulder or even to chest. So must have been prior impact which has been missed (I did watch game) or a type of whiplash as a result of DA tackle.
Judge or Shoeman at fault: don’t know except that scrum looked good again as soon as Bhatti came on (not the first time), he should start in absence of Beno - and that is a selection error IMO.
PECK
Judge or Shoeman at fault: don’t know except that scrum looked good again as soon as Bhatti came on (not the first time), he should start in absence of Beno - and that is a selection error IMO.
PECK
Final word on the Attwood/Stuart incident. The simple fact is tackler made direct contact with the head of carrier with sufficient force to cause him serious injury and it did change the course of the match. I'm very surprised it wasn't reviewed at the time and more surprised that it hasn't been looked at since by the citing committee. [www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Quote:malco
Final word on the Attwood/Stuart incident. The simple fact is tackler made direct contact with the head of carrier with sufficient force to cause him serious injury and it did change the course of the match. I'm very surprised it wasn't reviewed at the time and more surprised that it hasn't been looked at since by the citing committee. [www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Persistence has caused me to look at this and I'm not sure that is correct.
I've looked at that part of the game again. It occurs at 34 minutes in the game. The initial contact with force is Stuart's chest with Atwood's right shoulder, Atwood is bending, as Stuart moves forward he rides up and then twists left and there is a head bump with less force. The resulting maul then goes to ground and Stuart gets a second impact to the head from McNally's knee as he falls.
From the protocols thats a yellow at worst isn't it. Atwood is bending, Atwood is wrapping and initial contact is not head to head.
Isn't this just a rugby incident that you have been promoting as "just part of the game?"
Shipwrecked,
I was in total agreement with your assessment until I saw your stills of the incident. Images 2,3 & 4 clearly show Attwoods tackle height. The question the officials should be asking " Can the tackler reduce his tackle height" the answer clearly shown in your stills is an undoubted YES. I don't personally agree with that as this is a fast paced contact sport but those are the current rules.
The next process is "Has the tackler made contact with the neck or head" the answer again is YES.
Based on that Attwood should have been shown Red and Malco is right.
At the end of the day whilst there is no intention in it - it is no different from our reds this season Mile Williams, Ben Obamo & Tom Dunn.
I don't agree with the current interpretation but I totally understand and appreciate we need to protect our players.
I was in total agreement with your assessment until I saw your stills of the incident. Images 2,3 & 4 clearly show Attwoods tackle height. The question the officials should be asking " Can the tackler reduce his tackle height" the answer clearly shown in your stills is an undoubted YES. I don't personally agree with that as this is a fast paced contact sport but those are the current rules.
The next process is "Has the tackler made contact with the neck or head" the answer again is YES.
Based on that Attwood should have been shown Red and Malco is right.
At the end of the day whilst there is no intention in it - it is no different from our reds this season Mile Williams, Ben Obamo & Tom Dunn.
I don't agree with the current interpretation but I totally understand and appreciate we need to protect our players.
Apologies - Post duplicated.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:12:09:41:39 by Ali1969.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:12:09:41:39 by Ali1969.
Quote:Ali1969
Shipwrecked,
I was in total agreement with your assessment until I saw your stills of the incident. Images 2,3 & 4 clearly show Attwoods tackle height. The question the officials should be asking " Can the tackler reduce his tackle height" the answer clearly shown in your stills is an undoubted YES. I don't personally agree with that as this is a fast paced contact sport but those are the current rules.
The next process is "Has the tackler made contact with the neck or head" the answer again is YES.
Based on that Attwood should have been shown Red and Malco is right.
At the end of the day whilst there is no intention in it - it is no different from our reds this season Mile Williams, Ben Obamo & Tom Dunn.
I don't agree with the current interpretation but I totally understand and appreciate we need to protect our players.
Thats not what the World Rugby framework says though Ali. As posted by Which Tyler in its - Decision making framework for high tackles.
Unless of course the RFU are using different protocols, are they actual statements you are quoting?
From the World Rigby link.
Head contact is not direct - mitigates to yellow (Still 1)
Tackler makes a definite attempt to change height in an effort to avoid ball carries head - mitigates to yellow (Still 1)
RugbyPass had a bit from Hooper about why they didn’t appeal Obano’s red - [www.rugbypass.com]
I just find it strange that the Stuart incident wasn’t even looked at, or maybe it was and the lack of camera angles that didn’t have Stuart obscuring view meant they had nothing to go on other than the outcome, which was a failed HIA (and the risk of a fractured jaw - noting the broken nose outcome of Obano’s red). Either way, we are our main front row down, potentially for the rest of the season, so I can’t see us getting much change from the remaining games.
I just find it strange that the Stuart incident wasn’t even looked at, or maybe it was and the lack of camera angles that didn’t have Stuart obscuring view meant they had nothing to go on other than the outcome, which was a failed HIA (and the risk of a fractured jaw - noting the broken nose outcome of Obano’s red). Either way, we are our main front row down, potentially for the rest of the season, so I can’t see us getting much change from the remaining games.
To look at it you have to have foul play though, Atwood is wrapping and bending, that's a legal tackle isn't it?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Surely with HIA following a collision (notwithstanding the possibility of McNally’s knee), it’s a matter of routine for the TMO to check?
Quote:Rawce
Surely with HIA following a collision (notwithstanding the possibility of McNally’s knee), it’s a matter of routine for the TMO to check?
Yes, I guess so, so the ref decided it was not warranted, then doesn't the citing possibility kicks in. I assume that the replays decided there is no incident of foul play.
Its unfortunate but I'm not sure there is a massive injustice here.
Just when the BATH V BRISTOL thread starts slipping down the page and I'm able to try and erase it from my memory a few more posts come in and it's back at the top, shouting at me!!
Quote:TomReagan
Just when the BATH V BRISTOL thread starts slipping down the page and I'm able to try and erase it from my memory a few more posts come in and it's back at the top, shouting at me!!
Apologies, I have a horrible feeling that the BATH V SALE thread will just replace it after the weekend though.
Sorry TR.
Hoops also said the Stuart wasn’t intentional and didn’t warrant a citing, so may have been privy to more info or Stuart’s input.
Dunn out for 4 weeks which, considering previous recent red, is probably about expected - [twitter.com]
Hoops also said the Stuart wasn’t intentional and didn’t warrant a citing, so may have been privy to more info or Stuart’s input.
Dunn out for 4 weeks which, considering previous recent red, is probably about expected - [twitter.com]
Quote:shipwrecked
To look at it you have to have foul play though, Atwood is wrapping and bending, that's a legal tackle isn't it?
Exactly as Beno, but one was red and a long ban. One wasn't looked at.
Attwood starts low, but his shoulder rises to hit Stuart's head.
Beno started low (not as low as DA but legal) initial contact was legal (as with DA), Beno's head then collided with the Wasp player's nose, DA's shoulder slides up to hit Stuart's head.
Neither intended to hit the other player's head, but there's no consistency.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:05:12:13:15:02 by Dorset Boy.
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:shipwrecked
To look at it you have to have foul play though, Atwood is wrapping and bending, that's a legal tackle isn't it?
Exactly as Beno, but one was red and a long ban. One wasn't looked at.
Attwood starts low, but his should rises to his Stuart's head.
Beno starter low (not as low as DA) initial contact was legal (as with DA), Beno's head then collided with the Wasp player's nose, DA's shoulder slides up to hit Stuart's head.
Neither intended to hit the other player's head, but there's no consistency.
Precisely this.
Do I want to see Attwood punished for this? No.
But neither do I think Obano, Dunn (twice), Williams or Ewels deserved to be punished either.
It is a farce.
On the scrum. I total agree that a penalty and a yellow card for not being as good as the other player is wrong it is the only part of the game where this happens. Teams now scrum for a penalty not a game advantage. When you watch a scrum now it is clear the root cause of the collapse is often the team judged to be on top. Both sides have a equal responsibility to keep the scrum up. Listened to a pod cast with Dave Flatman a couple of weeks ago and he said he never deliberately dropped a scrum but did go down if he got the set up wrong or the other team were on top.
If you look at the scrum that caused the pen try:
Bristol didnt drive through the mark they stepped left look how far they go they effectively by pass Shoeman who is still on his Mark but then gets penalised and sinbined.
The Flanker on their tight head side is not pushing on their prop but directly on Shoeman which happened on more than one occasion
Ref had decided that Bristol were on top so even if that advantage was achieved illegally they are awarded the decision.
Change most Scrum offences to a free kick (with no option to re-set) and you will see teams trying to win the contest to get their attack on the front foot against a retreating defence or if defending side trying to disrupt 8-9-10 access to create slow ball.
If you look at the scrum that caused the pen try:
Bristol didnt drive through the mark they stepped left look how far they go they effectively by pass Shoeman who is still on his Mark but then gets penalised and sinbined.
The Flanker on their tight head side is not pushing on their prop but directly on Shoeman which happened on more than one occasion
Ref had decided that Bristol were on top so even if that advantage was achieved illegally they are awarded the decision.
Change most Scrum offences to a free kick (with no option to re-set) and you will see teams trying to win the contest to get their attack on the front foot against a retreating defence or if defending side trying to disrupt 8-9-10 access to create slow ball.
Problem with changing the sanction for destroying the oppo scrum to just a free-kick is that this will often provide no advantage.
You can kick to ball into touch but the oppo has the throw in.
Or, you tap and go against a fully lined up defence.
Not sure what the answer is though.
HOP
You can kick to ball into touch but the oppo has the throw in.
Or, you tap and go against a fully lined up defence.
Not sure what the answer is though.
HOP
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