Bath
SHAMROCK SHOWDOWN: LONDON IRISH v BATH
Underhill: without peer.
By PG Tips
March 23 2021
League positions could change hands in Bath’s visit to London Irish at Brentford on Saturday. The Exiles, in 6th, lead Bath by a single league point, with fewer wins but benefitting from two draws and one more bonus point. Bath have won 5 of their last 6 Premiership ties while Irish have won twice in the same period. They will be desperate to arrest their slide and restore pride in their badge in what they are treating as a St Patrick’s Day fixture. So, will the Shield or the Shamrock shade the showdown?
Most of the Exiles’ recent results have been single score close. They lost by a point at Leicester, prevailed by a margin of 6 at Wasps and drew with Bristol during the 6 nations period; two weeks ago they squeezed past Worcester by a late penalty. Bookending those matches were heavy defeats away at Exeter and Sale. At home though Irish are a different proposition. Having seen a 40-0 half time eroded by a defensive implosion against Worcester, Bath cannot afford to be complacent.
Declan Kidney and Les Kiss’s ambition to create a dominant pack may have faltered badly last week at the AJ Bell, but an 8 containing Creevy, Mafi and Cowan should be no pushover. It is in the backs though where they are most likely to surprise their visitors. They have regularly shown a fluidity in attack which Bath have struggled to find. Half backs Phipps and Jackson like to keep the tempo moving and play heads up rugby, Rona is a gain line buster at centre, while Hassall-Collins and Brophy-Clewes will be ready to give both barrels. Tom Homer, as he showed in Bath colours last season can be lethal running from deep.
There will be a few selection debates for Bath this week. For the first time in almost three months Bath have the tantalising prospect of a near full deck to choose from. Up to 7 players could return from international duty if fit while medical reports on Priestland, De Glanville (leg injuries), Matavesi and Muir (HIAs) will govern their availability. Given the momentum and successes of the past few weeks, the coaches may opt for minimal disruption to the starting line-up except where injury dictates and chose to reinforce from the bench in the second half. I can see a return for Anthony Watson though if neither de Glanville nor Muir are fit to be risked.
In the first forty against Worcester, whom Irish struggled to despatch at home a week earlier, Bath showed both intensity and tactical variety in gaining almost complete dominance. Pleasingly, 4 of the 6 tries came from the backs, Bath both piercing the Warriors’ defence close in and stretching it out wide. They will want to build on that blueprint at Brentford while slamming the door on any repeat of an opposition second half fightback. Much will depend on who is fit at 10. If Rhys Priestland has recovered from his mysterious leg complaint it should be him. If not the choice is between a rookie Bailey or one of Matavesi and Redpath, neither of whom may be fully fit.
Bath’s pack should have the edge over Irish, but cannot count on the fast start and total control they enjoyed last week. Irish will have noted Bath’s lineout and scrum ploys and be preparing counters. They will also be hoping to find the same defensive doglegs that Worcester prised open last week. The breakdown therefore could be key. Underhill is almost without peer at this phase: his turnovers can give the visitors the penalty platform for lineouts and driving mauls to pressure the hosts. Supported by Reid and Mercer, with Faletau to cause havoc from the bench in the later stages, this is where Bath should harass and frustrate the Exiles. If they can dominate and win quick ball the stage is set for McConnochie, Watson and Joseph to enjoy the freedom of the open spaces.
Should Bath falter Leicester, Newcastle and Wasps are in close pursuit ready to overtake. They will aim to repeat the high scoring of their last two matches and break into the top 6. It should be a fast, open game on a dry and calm day. I expect the flavour of the post-match Guinness to be bitter for Irish, but sweet for Bath.
Possible Teams:
Bath: Obano, Dunn, Thomas, McNally, Ewels (Capt.), Reid, Underhill, Mercer. Spencer, Bailey. Cokanasiga, Clark, Joseph, Watson. McConnochie.
Replacements: Schoeman, Walker, Stuart, Stooke, Faletau. Chudley, Mataveis, Rokodoguni.
London Irish: Gigena, Creevy, Chawatama, Mafi, Simmonds, Cowan, Donnell, Tuisue. Phipps, Jackson. Hassall-Collins, Brophy-Clewes, Rona, Loader. Homer.
Replacements: Cornish, Goodrick-Clarke, Hoskins, Nott, Rogerson. Meehan, Joseph, Stokes.
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StumbleuponSHAMROCK SHOWDOWN: LONDON IRISH v BATH. TEAM UP!
Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 23/03/2021 18:25
23/03/2021 18:25
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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:30:09:30:34 by P G Tips.
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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:30:09:30:34 by P G Tips.
A very good preview, although we didn't succumb to Wasps, we won by 6 points. Hope it's a good game this Saturday and not one-way traffic like last week at the AJ Bell.
Apologies mackem.
Corrected now.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Corrected now.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
"while Hassall-Collins and Brophy-Clewes will be ready to give both barrels"
Creative literary metaphors at their absolute best
Creative literary metaphors at their absolute best
Seems Rhys may be out for a while:
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Looks like Bailey or Matavesi at 10 this weekend.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Looks like Bailey or Matavesi at 10 this weekend.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quote:P G Tips
Seems Rhys may be out for a while:
[www.somersetlive.co.uk]
Looks like Bailey or Matavesi at 10 this weekend.
Or both, need a place kicker, Spencer is OK but its Landy for me!
Think I would go something like:
Obano
Dunn
Thomas
Mcnally
Stooke
Reid
Underhill
Mercer
Spencer
Bailey
Muir
Matavesi
JJ
Coko
Rmc
Bench: schoeman, walker, judge, ewels, faletau, fox, clark, watson
Though would be tempted by bayliss for faletau and gray for watson personally as been a busy few months for them mentally and physically
Obano
Dunn
Thomas
Mcnally
Stooke
Reid
Underhill
Mercer
Spencer
Bailey
Muir
Matavesi
JJ
Coko
Rmc
Bench: schoeman, walker, judge, ewels, faletau, fox, clark, watson
Though would be tempted by bayliss for faletau and gray for watson personally as been a busy few months for them mentally and physically
Looks good Charlie but Muir went off for HIA last week so may not be fit. No news on Bayliss' recovery from HIA yet either.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quote:P G Tips
Looks good Charlie but Muir went off for HIA last week so may not be fit. No news on Bayliss' recovery from HIA yet either.
Good point, forgot about muir.
Bayliss been out for about 4 weeks, v worrying if still not OK but need to tread v carefully.
Also would probably have stuart on the bench actually.
Quote:shipwrecked
.... its Landy for me!
Shipwrecked .... are you trying to get us emotionally tied into Bailey by giving him a nickname??? Is this a new, subtle part of your campaign for him to start every match?
Quote:OptimistQuote:shipwrecked
.... its Landy for me!
Shipwrecked .... are you trying to get us emotionally tied into Bailey by giving him a nickname??? Is this a new, subtle part of your campaign for him to start every match?
Nope, thats his name as used in the team, was in one of the videos recently!
I do admit it would be an excellent strategy though, like your tactics Opti!
Miles Reid at 1 min 45 secs, Muir's nick name is 'Romeo' , not sure we should ask about that!
Quote:shipwrecked
Landy ... thats his name as used in the team
You gotta love the sheer weight of imagination that went into that 'nick' name. If his name was actually 'Landy', he'd have been 'nick' named 'Lando'.
'Romeo' though?
Also - just noticed this on the offy ..... finally we get to hear from Dempsey! - I may go and have a little flutter on Red Rum for tomorrow's Derby.
Quote:OptimistQuote:shipwrecked
Landy ... thats his name as used in the team
You gotta love the sheer weight of imagination that went into that 'nick' name. If his name was actually 'Landy', he'd have been 'nick' named 'Lando'.
No doubt we already have Dunny, Stookie, Reidie, Rhysie and for a bit of variation Chudders cos you couldn't really go with Chudleighie
Team Up. Bailey starts!
Bath Rugby side to face London Irish
15. Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Max Clark, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Henry Thomas, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Tom Ellis, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements
16. Tom Dunn, 17. Beno Obano, 18. Will Stuart, 19. Will Spencer, 20. Miles Reid, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Max Ojomoh, 23. Alex Gray
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Bath Rugby side to face London Irish
15. Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Max Clark, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1 Juan Schoeman, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Henry Thomas, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Tom Ellis, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
Replacements
16. Tom Dunn, 17. Beno Obano, 18. Will Stuart, 19. Will Spencer, 20. Miles Reid, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Max Ojomoh, 23. Alex Gray
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Team Up. Really excited about this one what with Bailey and Ojomoh in the squad.
15. . Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Max Clark, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Henry Thomas, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Tom Ellis, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
REPLACEMENTS
16. Tom Dunn, 17. Beno Obano, 18. Will Stuart, 19. Will Spencer, 20. Miles Reid, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Max Ojomoh, 23. Alex Gray
15. . Anthony Watson, 14. Joe Cokanasiga, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Max Clark, 11. Will Muir, 10. Orlando Bailey, 9. Ben Spencer; 1. Juan Schoeman, 2. Jack Walker, 3. Henry Thomas, 4. Josh McNally, 5. Charlie Ewels ©, 6. Tom Ellis, 7. Sam Underhill, 8. Zach Mercer
REPLACEMENTS
16. Tom Dunn, 17. Beno Obano, 18. Will Stuart, 19. Will Spencer, 20. Miles Reid, 21. Will Chudley, 22. Max Ojomoh, 23. Alex Gray
Good to see Will Spencer back & interesting to get a view of Max Ojomoh.
Nice to see variety in the selection mix again.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Nice to see variety in the selection mix again.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Looking forward to this; Bailey starting, and presumably playing the full 80 with no obvious backup, Will Spencer back, and a first look at Ojunior.
And the Irish:
London Irish:
15 Tom Parton, 14 Ben Loader, 13 Curtis Rona, 12 Theo Brophy Clews, 11 Ollie Hassell-Collins, 10 Paddy Jackson, 9 Nick Phipps, 1 Will Goodrick-Clarke, 2 Matt Cornish, 3 Lovejoy Chawatama, 4 Chunya Munga, 5 Rob Simmons, 6 Ben Donnell, 7 Blair Cowan, 8 Matt Rogerson (c)
Replacements:
16 Agustin Creevy, 17 Facundo Gigena, 18 Ollie Hoskins, 19 George Nott, 20 Jack Cooke, 21 Sean O’Brien, 22 Ben Meehan, 23 Will Joseph
No room for Tom Homer!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
London Irish:
15 Tom Parton, 14 Ben Loader, 13 Curtis Rona, 12 Theo Brophy Clews, 11 Ollie Hassell-Collins, 10 Paddy Jackson, 9 Nick Phipps, 1 Will Goodrick-Clarke, 2 Matt Cornish, 3 Lovejoy Chawatama, 4 Chunya Munga, 5 Rob Simmons, 6 Ben Donnell, 7 Blair Cowan, 8 Matt Rogerson (c)
Replacements:
16 Agustin Creevy, 17 Facundo Gigena, 18 Ollie Hoskins, 19 George Nott, 20 Jack Cooke, 21 Sean O’Brien, 22 Ben Meehan, 23 Will Joseph
No room for Tom Homer!
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
...also:
- JJ vs his brother
- great to see Ellis starting - nice balance to that back row
- brilliant that we have the resource to give both Taulupe and Miles Reid a well earned rest
- that front row rumbling off the bench!!!!!
- big Joe C, new contract in his pocket, ready to rumble
- 'Ojunior' ... good work 9215
Slightly worried about 'the team that likes to go a few points up and then blow it' versus 'the team that likes to go a lot of points behind and then turn on the burners' - but this promises to be the game of the season.
- JJ vs his brother
- great to see Ellis starting - nice balance to that back row
- brilliant that we have the resource to give both Taulupe and Miles Reid a well earned rest
- that front row rumbling off the bench!!!!!
- big Joe C, new contract in his pocket, ready to rumble
- 'Ojunior' ... good work 9215
Slightly worried about 'the team that likes to go a few points up and then blow it' versus 'the team that likes to go a lot of points behind and then turn on the burners' - but this promises to be the game of the season.
Here’s hoping for an entertaining and attacking match.
We (Irish) are probably fielding our best set of backs minus Hepetema and are resting a few up front.
Would have been good to see the Joseph brothers and the Cokanasiga brothers in the head to heads but not to be!
We (Irish) are probably fielding our best set of backs minus Hepetema and are resting a few up front.
Would have been good to see the Joseph brothers and the Cokanasiga brothers in the head to heads but not to be!
That's a very big starting and reserve set of forwards, but we're clearly a bit stretched in the backs, with no Matevasi, Redpath, Scho and Priestland to cover 10. Great to 'Ojunior' get a go alongside his mate Bailey. Really excited to see what they bring in amongst the internationals.
I'd like a big game from Ewels. I thought he was very good for England and I'd now like to see him really deliver for Bath, week in, week out. Exciting time to be captain of this young exciting team so looking forward to seeing him step up too. The England 5 shirt is his for the taking if he does.
I'd like a big game from Ewels. I thought he was very good for England and I'd now like to see him really deliver for Bath, week in, week out. Exciting time to be captain of this young exciting team so looking forward to seeing him step up too. The England 5 shirt is his for the taking if he does.
That’s quite a front row on the bench.
Who plays FH if OB(2?) gets a knock?
PECK
Who plays FH if OB(2?) gets a knock?
PECK
Referee: Craig Maxwell-Keys (91st Premiership game). Assistant Referees: Robert Warburton & Philip Watters. TMO: David Grashoff. Citing Officer: Duncan Bell.
Always makes me smile to see Belly as citing officer - classic poacher turned gamekeeper!
Always makes me smile to see Belly as citing officer - classic poacher turned gamekeeper!
That's more like it.
And when OB ("Landy") misses a kick lets (metaphorically) get behind him and not on his case!!!
And when OB ("Landy") misses a kick lets (metaphorically) get behind him and not on his case!!!
Quote:Miles is probably jealous, as his nickname appears to be Moe Szyslakshipwrecked
[video]Miles Reid at 1 min 45 secs, Muir's nick name is 'Romeo' , not sure we should ask about that!
RAEBURN SHIELD
Muir is 'horse isn't it?
Two good looking teams, should be a cracker.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Two good looking teams, should be a cracker.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:charlieboaQuote:Optimist
Spencer?
I reckon so.
Lots to like in that 23.....
Though i'd kind of like to see JJ doing it ... I think BFJ would like to see his little chip kicks unlocking rush defenders....
Delighted with that team, would love them to win but the fact they are playing is the main thing. Really pleased for my mate Landy., but also note the Gray is on the bench as well.
To be honest that bench looks lethal!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
To be honest that bench looks lethal!
with the exception of Chudley. If only he could play like he did at Exeter. Sometimes you see a hint of it but most of the time he seems too preoccupied with organising the backs with arm waving etc. and slowing the game down. Is it confidence or what?
Quote:hemington
with the exception of Chudley. If only he could play like he did at Exeter. Sometimes you see a hint of it but most of the time he seems too preoccupied with organising the backs with arm waving etc. and slowing the game down. Is it confidence or what?
I think Chudders is actually a good call tomorrow, Fox and OB would be a green set of half backs. Would be nice to have experienced heads around him to take some of the pressure off and let him play his game.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:hemington
with the exception of Chudley. If only he could play like he did at Exeter. Sometimes you see a hint of it but most of the time he seems too preoccupied with organising the backs with arm waving etc. and slowing the game down. Is it confidence or what?
I think Chudders is actually a good call tomorrow, Fox and OB would be a green set of half backs. Would be nice to have experienced heads around him to take some of the pressure off and let him play his game.
Agreed. Likewise I am not matavesi's biggest fan but would have helped bailey having him at 12 I think
Bailey is definitely OB2 because "Landy" is frankly unacceptable as a nickname for anyone.
A glimpse of the future - very exciting
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
A glimpse of the future - very exciting
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanatic
Bailey is definitely OB2 because "Landy" is frankly unacceptable as a nickname for anyone.
A glimpse of the future - very exciting
He is called "Landy" because he has a big motor, 4 wheel drive and all terrain boots.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:joethefanatic
Bailey is definitely OB2 because "Landy" is frankly unacceptable as a nickname for anyone.
A glimpse of the future - very exciting
He is called "Landy" because he has a big motor, 4 wheel drive and all terrain boots.
Then I'd prefer we called him "Lambo" cos he's blinding quick, a bit flash and totally unpredictable.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:Susanne
Referee: Craig Maxwell-Keys (91st Premiership game). Assistant Referees: Robert Warburton & Philip Watters. TMO: David Grashoff. Citing Officer: Duncan Bell.
Always makes me smile to see Belly as citing officer - classic poacher turned gamekeeper!
Excited by the team selected, the opposition and DC signing on then my heart sank when I saw CMK has the whistle. For me he doesn't referee the game himself as say Nigel Owens would, rather he is in constant contact with the TMO seeking their opinion which results in a very stop/start game. After 91 Prem games he should be experienced enough to manage/react to what is going on around him rather than seeking 2nd opinions throughout the 80mins. I really, really hope he doesn't do it again tomorrow...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
That's more like it.
And when OB ("Landy") misses a kick lets (metaphorically) get behind him and not on his case!!!
But the headline would still be 'Landy doesn't land it'
10/11 academy (HT inc or not) and 22 eqp...if you are interested in that kind of thing
Not sure if Henry Thomas was Academy charlie but I certainly remember him in both Minis & Youth sections at Bath.
PG
PG
Regarding Bailey’s nickname, I think I heard the squad calling him ‘Ors’ when I watched them train. They might have been shouting at Horse though... who knows!
Quote:RockNRoweller
Regarding Bailey’s nickname, I think I heard the squad calling him ‘Ors’ when I watched them train. They might have been shouting at Horse though... who knows!
Thought Horse was the name given to Will Muir because of his stride length.
Quote:P G Tips
Not sure if Henry Thomas was Academy charlie but I certainly remember him in both Minis & Youth sections at Bath.
PG
Yep, left aged 18 to uni and play for sale.....so not technically an academy grad but certainly could argue he is 'one of our own I guess
A good start but unless they're an easy 3 points I'd rather see us going for the corner.
CMK awards Bath first penalty in LI scrum, Spencer misses at 42 yards, but succeeds another attempt from similar distance.
As someone said earlier after 90 games Maxwel keys should be more confident. He had that right as a pen only but allowed himself to be over ruled by the tmo.
Clear forward pass for Rogerson try.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Spencer fails to find touch, LI break from own 22 and score converted try!
[quote P G Tips]Clear forward pass for Rogerson try.[/quote
I agree. There was an evening bigger one just after the ewels yellow card tackle that noone seemed to see. I know irrelevant as went back to the yellow but was totally missed and about 5y forward. Cokanasiga not on his game today. Should have scored then but even more unforgivable to be completely rucked off the ball seconds later.
I agree. There was an evening bigger one just after the ewels yellow card tackle that noone seemed to see. I know irrelevant as went back to the yellow but was totally missed and about 5y forward. Cokanasiga not on his game today. Should have scored then but even more unforgivable to be completely rucked off the ball seconds later.
Very frustrating game. After a great start, gone back into our shells and making loads of handling errors.
It’s a right old mixed bag. But I do feel like the game could turn when our first choice front row all rumble on. Bailey nice and solid if a little over-protected by Spencer.
Joseph is having an absolute shocker. Awful passing, turnstile defence and dying on the ball in attack.
It’s so weird how there sometimes appears to be a conspiracy of silence on forward passes. The commentators didn’t even mention it for LI’s 2nd try and yet Rogerson was actually standing ahead of the passer so it was literally impossible not to be a forward pass.
Quote:Optimist
It’s so weird how there sometimes appears to be a conspiracy of silence on forward passes. The commentators didn’t even mention it for LI’s 2nd try and yet Rogerson was actually standing ahead of the passer so it was literally impossible not to be a forward pass.
CMK actually heard a call of “forward!” and frefused to accept it!
PG
They’re all having a mixed bag. Clark - great offload, terrible missed tackle, Ewels another YC, Watson running nowhere, Joe C back to feet in treacle, Mercer getting too predictable in the carry...
Individually we seem far stronger but as so often is the case we don’t gel as effectively as we should & make such a meal of attacking opportunities. Would Watson have run straight into Ewels whislst playing for England but for us he & Joseph never find any space. & continually run into dead ends. Also, would Spencer have made two such poor kicks when playing for Saracens? It’s the attacking side of our game that really needs taking in hand. We should certainly win this game but I wouldn’t put any money on it.
One point to note 'Landy' has been fine! Tackles well and has a step. Obviously decided that Spencer does all the tactical kicking. Not sure thats right but first start I can see why.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I think I heard some one shout forward and another said no way and CMK said if it was forward the TMO will say so.
Now that is a game changing substitution Stuart, Dunn, Obano!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Classic Bath to concede that try
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:27:16:25:29 by dannyf2.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:27:16:25:29 by dannyf2.
Quote:Optimist
JJ now overdoing the first receiver role. Let Bailey get on with it.
Agree far too protective!
Why do I think even at 20 mins to go the game is gone ?
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Stupid from Dunn. They way Irish have been cutting us apart this will be difficult to get anything from this game
Rugby Union is dead. That is a red card and a yellow card that have completely determined the outcome of the match, neither of which are in any way warranted.
Farce.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:27:16:33:40 by malco.
Farce.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:27:16:33:40 by malco.
How is that even a penalty when the argy runs into Dunn 5 yards in front to the ball. Should have been a bath pen
Quote:shipwrecked
Now that is a game changing substitution Stuart, Dunn, Obano!
Sounds like it certainly has been a game changer, but not in a good way.. 😃
as someone said earlier in the thread, one side that starts well against another which finishes well. We have been absolute "merde" apart from about 10 mins at the start if 1st half and 3 mins at start of second.
Terrible terrible, no passion no commitment just rubbish. Our backs apart from Muir and Watson look clueless and the pack is getting a beating. Back down the table again.
Terrible terrible, no passion no commitment just rubbish. Our backs apart from Muir and Watson look clueless and the pack is getting a beating. Back down the table again.
That just isn't a red card. Players can milk anything where there is head contact
D’oh. This game looked like it was there for the taking but we seem to have hit the self-destruct button in the last 5 mins...
Ewells is becoming a liability and isn't a captain. He does stupid stuff like that and gets caught with yellow cards.
We have been so much better with Stooke playing and McNallly as captain.
We have been so much better with Stooke playing and McNallly as captain.
So much for all the recent progress !
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
What a disastrous half, it all seemed to go wrong after we subbed the entire front row and Dunny missed his first lineout. V poor show...
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
Adopted players: 24/25 J Bayliss; [24] O Lawrence; [23] J Cokanasiga; [22] M Green; [21] A Watson; [20] T Faletau; [19] M V Vuuren; [18] T Faletau; [17] D Denton; [16] H. Agulla; [15] L Houston; [14] W Spencer; [13] F. Louw
Family . Community . Nation - [sdp.org.uk]
My mind's been going places without me lately - Bushfire The B52's
I wonder how Mr Hooper will reflect on this performance ?
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Our coaching setup isn’t much good, but difficult to blame them for 2 red cards and a yellow.
No worries though we’ll train we’ll next wee.
No worries though we’ll train we’ll next wee.
Quote:Dorset Boy
Yellow for Irish
Quite right too. That hair cut deserved a red.
Hooper needs to get the hairdryer out after this. I'm actually so furious with Charlie for that red.
McNally has showed in many games why he would be my on field captain .
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
2 BPs
Had Spencer got the last 2 conversion we would have won.
Great response to the 2 reds and yellow.
Had Spencer got the last 2 conversion we would have won.
Great response to the 2 reds and yellow.
Well. 2 points I wasn't expecting after 60 mins.
Whatever you want to say about those reds, the game clearly wasn't ruined by them.
Whatever you want to say about those reds, the game clearly wasn't ruined by them.
Blimey. A strangely fitting end to the game. Take the 2 points and get back on the team coach...but make Charlie walk home.
Mad stuff - but Bath retained possession better with 12 than very often with 15. How is Ben Spencer not England 9?
Lucky to get the 2 points 
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
2 points rescued, but still 3 points wasted.
I thought that there were a lot of Irish runners ahead of the ball carrier throughout the game that were engaging/ blocking our player, but they only got penalised late on, both of our reds happened when they did this.
I thought that there were a lot of Irish runners ahead of the ball carrier throughout the game that were engaging/ blocking our player, but they only got penalised late on, both of our reds happened when they did this.
Good to play to the end and good to get the 2pts from it .... But Dunn and Ewells have to stand up and take responsibility for this game. It was there to win and those two reds did for us
Weird game, Bath were the better side but committed penalty suicide. Two reds yellows as well yet two bonus points and could have won it.
Don't agree with this protect Bailey ploy and so much for the 'lets give the debutants a good introduction'. Ojomoj joins the field with just 12 Bath players on the pitch.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Don't agree with this protect Bailey ploy and so much for the 'lets give the debutants a good introduction'. Ojomoj joins the field with just 12 Bath players on the pitch.
Our mentality was great in the last 20 with do many off the pitch, good to see rather than heads dropping, we kept thinking we could win.
Not so happy with the 20mins before that though.
Not so happy with the 20mins before that though.
Quote:Dorset Boy
2 BPs
Had Spencer got the last 2 conversion we would have won.
Great response to the 2 reds and yellow.
Remember Bailey converted from out wide last week.
That was a massively wasted opportunity against a team with whom we were neck & neck and with that lineup we should have come out on top but it is difficult with that many red & yellow cards.
Why is it when a player goes down and they review and say contact with the head and start debating what card to pull from the pack, why oh why is the player who’s received the bang not automatically going for a HIA?
Today’s game Loader goes down play is reviewed and penalty/card against us.
It was obvious from the way loader goes down and stays down it was a reasonable knock but 5 mins later he’s popping over for a try, when in my view he should have been off the field having a HIA.
Not the first time this has happened to us or in other games. They keep going on about protecting the players.
Answers on a post card please.
Today’s game Loader goes down play is reviewed and penalty/card against us.
It was obvious from the way loader goes down and stays down it was a reasonable knock but 5 mins later he’s popping over for a try, when in my view he should have been off the field having a HIA.
Not the first time this has happened to us or in other games. They keep going on about protecting the players.
Answers on a post card please.
SO frustrating. Ewels and Dunn (and Muir to a much lesser extent) owe a very big apology. Madness.
Great fight at the end. With Rhys on the field of kick we would have won it. Considering where we were with 20 to go, a pretty remarkable 2 points. Thought Bailey did very well. Didn’t look overawed in the slightest.
Post apologies in the changing room, forget this one. Onwards.
Great fight at the end. With Rhys on the field of kick we would have won it. Considering where we were with 20 to go, a pretty remarkable 2 points. Thought Bailey did very well. Didn’t look overawed in the slightest.
Post apologies in the changing room, forget this one. Onwards.
Cmk got some of those decisions badly wrong at the end as well. How was that driving maul a yellow and not a pen try we would definitely have scored if they hadn't pulled it down. And how was it not looked at when they tool mcnally out in the line out. Just as dangerous as what muir did.
If he had given the pen try we would have had longer.
If he had given the pen try we would have had longer.
Quote:dcsh
I thought that there were a lot of Irish runners ahead of the ball carrier throughout the game that were engaging/ blocking our player, but they only got penalised late on, both of our reds happened when they did this.
Dunn's red and Ewels' second yellow were both contacting players ahead of the ball.
Quote:nick holder
why not trust Bailey to take kicks at goal??
Yes - I’d forgotten the law that says the fly-half has to take the kicks.
Agree with dcsh and with Shipwrecked. Dunn and Ewels need to hold hands up for those reds -but the Dunn one at least came from Creevy trying to take hime out and Dunn over reacted.
Bath architects of their own downfall but CMK did not distinguish himself IMHO. Irish first 3 points came as a result of 3 consecutive forward passes. Their second try was a clear forward pass and their third looked dubious too.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Bath architects of their own downfall but CMK did not distinguish himself IMHO. Irish first 3 points came as a result of 3 consecutive forward passes. Their second try was a clear forward pass and their third looked dubious too.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
And another one why was Cowan shoulder charge into maul not looked at should have been yellow it was much worse than what ewels did. He didn't wrap and didn't bind its illegal but because he hit Thomas on the shoulder he got away with it.
It may be obvious but really not happy with the impact of inconsistent decisions on the result of this match
It may be obvious but really not happy with the impact of inconsistent decisions on the result of this match
Quote:I agree. Switched roles with Dunn. It's normally Walker who comes on and misses his first line out.dr.bath1865
Oh and thought Walker had his best game in a Bath shirt.
I had great hopes when our first choice front row came on, but that's when it started to go wrong. Beno spilled to start one LI try, then Dunn sent off allowing space out wide for the next.
As I said last week Stooke is a better player than Ewels. 2 points following 2 red cards is at least keeping in touch with 6th place. Onwards and upwards.
Quote:stephen4944Quote:dcsh
I thought that there were a lot of Irish runners ahead of the ball carrier throughout the game that were engaging/ blocking our player, but they only got penalised late on, both of our reds happened when they did this.
Dunn's red and Ewels' second yellow were both contacting players ahead of the ball.
Personally of the opinion that if you're in front of the ball carrier and obstructing the defence, you deserve every shoulder in the back you get. It's not head contact and given you can't tackle you should be entitled to move them out of the way.
Quote:Yep, agreed with this. This really need policing by refs as charging into static and often compromised players seems dangerous, maybe the next area to be looked at by the authorities.Murty7
And another one why was Cowan shoulder charge into maul not looked at should have been yellow it was much worse than what ewels did. He didn't wrap and didn't bind its illegal but because he hit Thomas on the shoulder he got away with it.
It may be obvious but really not happy with the impact of inconsistent decisions on the result of this match
Quote:Murty7
And another one why was Cowan shoulder charge into maul not looked at should have been yellow it was much worse than what ewels did. He didn't wrap and didn't bind its illegal but because he hit Thomas on the shoulder he got away with it.
It may be obvious but really not happy with the impact of inconsistent decisions on the result of this match
Exactly this , Chris Ashton gets red today for similar clearout ! All anybody wants is consistency.
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Quote:Seems like a bit of a game of chicken, with the first to make contact being penalised either for tackling the player without the ball or obstruction.The BearQuote:stephen4944Quote:dcsh
I thought that there were a lot of Irish runners ahead of the ball carrier throughout the game that were engaging/ blocking our player, but they only got penalised late on, both of our reds happened when they did this.
Dunn's red and Ewels' second yellow were both contacting players ahead of the ball.
Personally of the opinion that if you're in front of the ball carrier and obstructing the defence, you deserve every shoulder in the back you get. It's not head contact and given you can't tackle you should be entitled to move them out of the way.
Have to say given the missed kicks, this is a match that we really missed Rhys’ boot.
Yes, the Cowan shoulder charge was more dangerous and hurt Thomas more than any other offence in the match. Could’ve ruined his shoulder.
Interesting how the end felt like the finale of France v Wales but then quickly morphed into Wales v Ireland when Spencer missed touch!
Interesting how the end felt like the finale of France v Wales but then quickly morphed into Wales v Ireland when Spencer missed touch!
Just seen the Dunn red again on bt sport Dunn was stationary and the argy ran into him he did not initiate the contact. What should Dunn do leave himself unprotected the other player to run into him.
There is a big issue in the game with players in front of the ball. LI were blocking at every restart. Really poor reffing today.
To counter it a bit l thought muir was luck it wasn't red as well. That was probably the silliest of the 3
There is a big issue in the game with players in front of the ball. LI were blocking at every restart. Really poor reffing today.
To counter it a bit l thought muir was luck it wasn't red as well. That was probably the silliest of the 3
What have we learnt from this farce?
1. For whatever reason Joseph and Cokanasiga are not currently playing well enough to justify their places
2. Bailey is going to be a fine player but is not ready to play at this level
3. London Irish have some exciting young backs
4. London Irish have some cynical cheats in the forwards
5. Craig Maxwell Keys is a weak and gullible referee
1. For whatever reason Joseph and Cokanasiga are not currently playing well enough to justify their places
2. Bailey is going to be a fine player but is not ready to play at this level
3. London Irish have some exciting young backs
4. London Irish have some cynical cheats in the forwards
5. Craig Maxwell Keys is a weak and gullible referee
Pretty much agree with all of that although I didn't think Bailey looked out of place and the only way he is going to be ready is to play.
Who were the BT commentators their excitement levels seem to rise distinctly for Irish tries but not do for our tries. Very Irish bias!
Thought that performance that nicely summed up why we never achieve anything as a club imho.
A string of good performances and then turn up like we expect to cruise to another win. Zero on field leadership to turn it around....in fact your captain brings back some England mentality and gets idiotically sent off.
I know it's boring to compare to Exeter but do they ever put in such inept and ill disciplined displays?
Showed some character at the end but that's the least you demand really.
Agree with SW, lots of talk of playing the academy guys at the right time but as always forced upon them by injury. Bailey needed redpath or matavesi outside him not clark. Ojo deserved to make his debut when we had more than 12 players on the park.
To be fair to management they made changes early realising when you sleep walk into a game its v v hard for the same players to turn that around.
Lots of positives individually and collectively over the last 2 months but showings like that shouldn't be brushed under the carpet. The best teams have a performance like that once a season max....we have several.
Credit to London Irish, played some good stuff and were clinical.
A string of good performances and then turn up like we expect to cruise to another win. Zero on field leadership to turn it around....in fact your captain brings back some England mentality and gets idiotically sent off.
I know it's boring to compare to Exeter but do they ever put in such inept and ill disciplined displays?
Showed some character at the end but that's the least you demand really.
Agree with SW, lots of talk of playing the academy guys at the right time but as always forced upon them by injury. Bailey needed redpath or matavesi outside him not clark. Ojo deserved to make his debut when we had more than 12 players on the park.
To be fair to management they made changes early realising when you sleep walk into a game its v v hard for the same players to turn that around.
Lots of positives individually and collectively over the last 2 months but showings like that shouldn't be brushed under the carpet. The best teams have a performance like that once a season max....we have several.
Credit to London Irish, played some good stuff and were clinical.
Quote:malco
What have we learnt from this farce?
1. For whatever reason Joseph and Cokanasiga are not currently playing well enough to justify their places
2. Bailey is going to be a fine player but is not ready to play at this level
3. London Irish have some exciting young backs
4. London Irish have some cynical cheats in the forwards
5. Craig Maxwell Keys is a weak and gullible referee
Agree with all of those except 2) If you play him, play him. Very damaging and shows a lack of confidence to say you can restart but not place kick. Then kick everything from 9.
Start him as the kicker the Ben can take over if he doesn't get them but we saw recently he can kick and did so from wide out.
JJ had a poor one and JC's tackling was miles off, fine if they run into him otherwise its too easy to go past him!
So annoyed with Ewels 
..international class?? Contributes sweet f.a as both player and skipper. Stooke and Spencer better choices.
Players have been responding a lot better recently under McNally's stewardship, combined with his performances which have been light years ahead of Ewels as both lock and team leader.
Backs desperately need Redpath back at 12. Glad OB had a decent enough start, but we are desperately short of footballers with guile in the midfield. Clark and Big Joe handling v poor. Not convinced at all at evidence extending Big Joe's contract, not even a destructive tackler, give me wheels anytime... would have finished Spencer's break (who again was v good).
Would have like to see Ojomoh get on for longer at Clark's expense...
Otherwise frustrating. A good shift put in by many others just missing a sprinkle of magic somewhere, especially (10,12, 13). Excited to see if we get a bit of extra carry punch at 8 next year with Coetzee.
..international class?? Contributes sweet f.a as both player and skipper. Stooke and Spencer better choices.
Players have been responding a lot better recently under McNally's stewardship, combined with his performances which have been light years ahead of Ewels as both lock and team leader.
Backs desperately need Redpath back at 12. Glad OB had a decent enough start, but we are desperately short of footballers with guile in the midfield. Clark and Big Joe handling v poor. Not convinced at all at evidence extending Big Joe's contract, not even a destructive tackler, give me wheels anytime... would have finished Spencer's break (who again was v good).
Would have like to see Ojomoh get on for longer at Clark's expense...
Otherwise frustrating. A good shift put in by many others just missing a sprinkle of magic somewhere, especially (10,12, 13). Excited to see if we get a bit of extra carry punch at 8 next year with Coetzee.
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG
PG
We can expect to be without Ewels and Dunn for 2-3 weeks.
Hope McNally stays fit and time to use Du Toit.
We need Rhys or cameron back PDQ as as well.
PG
Hope McNally stays fit and time to use Du Toit.
We need Rhys or cameron back PDQ as as well.
PG
Quote:malco
What have we learnt from this farce?
1. For whatever reason Joseph and Cokanasiga are not currently playing well enough to justify their places
2. Bailey is going to be a fine player but is not ready to play at this level
3. London Irish have some exciting young backs
4. London Irish have some cynical cheats in the forwards
5. Craig Maxwell Keys is a weak and gullible referee
Agree with all that Malco and would add
6 Stuart Hooper is not the man to sort the consistent negative issues at Bath Rugby
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Bit harsh on JJ for me, but JoCo poor.
We played like the best team in Europe for the first 10 minutes. And then... Never played like that again.
We played like the best team in Europe for the first 10 minutes. And then... Never played like that again.
Quote:P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG
I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.
I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.
I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.
The 2 bonus points will paper over the cracks, that was mostly terrible.
The officials were incredibly weak.
Argie front rows milking for all they're worth. Embarrassing, but expected.
Send Cokanasiga to a Championship club. Total liability.
Drop Joseph, drop Dunn, drop Ewels, probably drop Watson too. The internationals come back and we fall apart with an incredibly strong team out. Same old.
The officials were incredibly weak.
Argie front rows milking for all they're worth. Embarrassing, but expected.
Send Cokanasiga to a Championship club. Total liability.
Drop Joseph, drop Dunn, drop Ewels, probably drop Watson too. The internationals come back and we fall apart with an incredibly strong team out. Same old.
Quote:malcoQuote:P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG
I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.
I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.
I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.
Surely it would do quite the opposite. He played in a game that saw a lot of adversity (self-inflicted) to his team, but he played the full 80 minutes and didn't make any mistakes! He came through it with a lot of credit in a full on Prem game.
Ok He didn't control the game like Rhys would or Cips. But his passing was crisp, his defence solid. His restarts were great - gave Muir something to go chase.
His confidence should go up, not down.
Quote:malcoQuote:P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG
I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.
I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.
I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.
Age old question, how do you get experience?
No idea what his game management is like because it was taken away from him and passed on to leading experienced international like JJ, Ewels and Spencer only one of whom was up to it, one had a confused game missing tackles and throwing impossible passes and one of whom made the same mistake twice and saw red.
Young players are not constrained by fear and just play what they see. We are trying to install this in our senior players and internationals, yet we are constraining it our youngsters. I don't think that is a god idea.
[quote P G Tips]Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG[/quote)
That is of course true but my only point is hoops makes a big thing of bringing young players in at the right time.
What actually happened was they waited for an injury crisis and bailey had to start having played 3 games (1 start) in over a year with a 12 who isn't a natural 12 with no kicking game. That annoys me alot and isn't 20:20 vision with the benefit of hindsight.
Ojo similar, been protecting him apparently and waiting for the perfect time....which seemingly is outside a 19 yr old when we are down to 12 men.
They did fine and will be better for it but imho it flys in the face of the rhetoric.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:27:18:39:26 by charlieboa.
PG[/quote)
That is of course true but my only point is hoops makes a big thing of bringing young players in at the right time.
What actually happened was they waited for an injury crisis and bailey had to start having played 3 games (1 start) in over a year with a 12 who isn't a natural 12 with no kicking game. That annoys me alot and isn't 20:20 vision with the benefit of hindsight.
Ojo similar, been protecting him apparently and waiting for the perfect time....which seemingly is outside a 19 yr old when we are down to 12 men.
They did fine and will be better for it but imho it flys in the face of the rhetoric.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:27:18:39:26 by charlieboa.
Agree strongly with all that Charlie, the returnees made a mess of it! I'd swap Clark for Grey as well!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
The 2 bonus points will paper over the cracks, that was mostly terrible. Yet another team run rings around us.
The officials were incredibly weak.
Their argie front rowers milking for all they're worth. Embarrassing, but expected.
Send Cokanasiga to a Championship club to regain a slither of form. Total liability and it's counter-productive playing him when he's clearly not right.
Drop Joseph, drop Ewels, probably drop Watson too. The internationals come back and we fall apart with a very strong team out. Same old.
The officials were incredibly weak.
Their argie front rowers milking for all they're worth. Embarrassing, but expected.
Send Cokanasiga to a Championship club to regain a slither of form. Total liability and it's counter-productive playing him when he's clearly not right.
Drop Joseph, drop Ewels, probably drop Watson too. The internationals come back and we fall apart with a very strong team out. Same old.
You get experience by playing in the United team. Which he hasn't.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:malcoQuote:P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG
I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.
I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.
I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.
Age old question, how do you get experience?
No idea what his game management is like because it was taken away from him and passed on to leading experienced international like JJ, Ewels and Spencer only one of whom was up to it, one had a confused game missing tackles and throwing impossible passes and one of whom made the same mistake twice and saw red.
Young players are not constrained by fear and just play what they see. We are trying to install this in our senior players and internationals, yet we are constraining it our youngsters. I don't think that is a god idea.
Quote:malco
You get experience by playing in the United team. Which he hasn't.Quote:shipwreckedQuote:malcoQuote:P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG
I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.
I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.
I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.
Age old question, how do you get experience?
No idea what his game management is like because it was taken away from him and passed on to leading experienced international like JJ, Ewels and Spencer only one of whom was up to it, one had a confused game missing tackles and throwing impossible passes and one of whom made the same mistake twice and saw red.
Young players are not constrained by fear and just play what they see. We are trying to install this in our senior players and internationals, yet we are constraining it our youngsters. I don't think that is a god idea.
There isn't one this year, some players in other clubs may not have played for up to 18 months. Are you suggesting that is good for development.
Remember he is the only fit regular fly half the club has got and we clipped his wings?
Quote:malco
You get experience by playing in the United team. Which he hasn't.Quote:shipwreckedQuote:malcoQuote:P G Tips
Those criticising the choice of Bailey and players alongside him conveniently overlook the fact that he is our only fit fly half and that neither Redpath nor Matavesi were considered for this match because they are not yet fit either.
PG
I'm not criticising his selection, the imperative was clear.
I do think that his performance showed that he is greatly talented but not experienced or mature enough to be playing at this level yet.
I hope it will not have had an adverse effect on his confidence.
Age old question, how do you get experience?
No idea what his game management is like because it was taken away from him and passed on to leading experienced international like JJ, Ewels and Spencer only one of whom was up to it, one had a confused game missing tackles and throwing impossible passes and one of whom made the same mistake twice and saw red.
Young players are not constrained by fear and just play what they see. We are trying to install this in our senior players and internationals, yet we are constraining it our youngsters. I don't think that is a god idea.
What united games in these COVID times?
Ok no need to drop Ewells he will be banned, but the ref clearly said just a. penalty not a yellow for the first card so it really wasn’t cut and dried. Creevy absolutely milked the one v Dunn wasn’t injured just ran into the Dunn and blocked him low impact Dunn shouldn’t have attempted to fend him off, if he had just let him hit -No offence. Rubbish red card.
Muir was lucky for the yellow although he pulled out and hit the pod not the guy in the air, it could have been so much worse. If he had landed on his head.
How their guy who recklessly hit the ruck and Thomas’ arm not shoulder got away with nothing is completely wrong.
Muir was lucky for the yellow although he pulled out and hit the pod not the guy in the air, it could have been so much worse. If he had landed on his head.
How their guy who recklessly hit the ruck and Thomas’ arm not shoulder got away with nothing is completely wrong.
Anyway representing one’s country at under 20’s is probably better than non existent united games!
We shouldn't be in the position of starting a season and only having one senior fly half at the club, Covid or no Covid. Tian Schoeman is a stop-gap journeyman. Rhys Priestland is getting on and has a lot of miles on the clock. It was always likely he was going to get injured. The fact there are no United games doesn't change the imperative, of course, but it does mean that our 19 year old promising fly half has been exposed to Premiership rugby with zero match preparation. I think he did extremely well all considered but it is a damning indictment of the way the club is run that this situation has arisen at all. It isn't bad luck, it is bad preparation.
I thought Bailey did fine and think it was a perfect opportunity to introduce him. I thought he joined rucks that a more experienced 10 wouldn’t, and I’d like to see him boss it more from first receiver, but his basics were good, a couple of nice runs and thought his defence excellent. All in all, for a 19 year old in what turned out to be a crazy game, I was impressed and there’s more to come.
What a strange game. Can’t work out how to feel about it but veering towards ‘happy with 2 points”. Disappointed with Ewels and Dunn but given where we were 2 months ago, our attack is unrecognisable and, despite the frustration of the loss, I’m enjoying watching us play a little rugby. The build up to Muir’s try was brilliant - we just need to start putting in 80 minute performances.
What a strange game. Can’t work out how to feel about it but veering towards ‘happy with 2 points”. Disappointed with Ewels and Dunn but given where we were 2 months ago, our attack is unrecognisable and, despite the frustration of the loss, I’m enjoying watching us play a little rugby. The build up to Muir’s try was brilliant - we just need to start putting in 80 minute performances.
I think it’s quite bad luck to have Priestland, Scho, Matevasi, Redpath and TdG injured and no United games for, what, months if not years in which to prepare our talented 19 year old fly half.
Having said that, Bailey did fine and wasn’t the reason we lost. In fact, club preparation wasn’t in any way to blame. It was individual moments of idiocy from seasoned players who should know better.
Having said that, Bailey did fine and wasn’t the reason we lost. In fact, club preparation wasn’t in any way to blame. It was individual moments of idiocy from seasoned players who should know better.
Bailey didn't get to do much but he didn't put a foot wrong.
Joe C's performance defies description though probably best summed up by the time he made a decent covering tackle after letting the player stroll by him moments before.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:27:19:56:42 by The Bear.
Joe C's performance defies description though probably best summed up by the time he made a decent covering tackle after letting the player stroll by him moments before.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:27:19:56:42 by The Bear.
Not quite sure what JJ or Watson did wrong.
Muir's yellow was the absolute stupidest. He came from miles away and was not in control.
Ewels second yellow was stupid. He pushed the guy with one hand, but elbowed him with the other. His first was barely even a penalty and should not have been yellow, really weak from CMK.
Dunn... I'm not sure what he could possibly have been trying to do that was legal there.
Spencer had a real off day. Stupid penalty kicking the ball out of the scrum half's hand. Missed touch at the end. Missed touch for them to run back and score, a few very short finders. Goal kicking not great.
Our defence has improved but we still concede waaaay too easily out wide on first phase in our twenty two. It's killing us.
I do not understand our attack, which was amazing for ten minutes and then we never played like that again.
Muir's yellow was the absolute stupidest. He came from miles away and was not in control.
Ewels second yellow was stupid. He pushed the guy with one hand, but elbowed him with the other. His first was barely even a penalty and should not have been yellow, really weak from CMK.
Dunn... I'm not sure what he could possibly have been trying to do that was legal there.
Spencer had a real off day. Stupid penalty kicking the ball out of the scrum half's hand. Missed touch at the end. Missed touch for them to run back and score, a few very short finders. Goal kicking not great.
Our defence has improved but we still concede waaaay too easily out wide on first phase in our twenty two. It's killing us.
I do not understand our attack, which was amazing for ten minutes and then we never played like that again.
I am interested in the comments on here about experience etc. and would just like to say this also applies to the officials. Contrast two games today, Irish V Bath and Bristol V Quins. We had CMK who with his 90th game is classed as experienced, they had (sorry don't know his name) in what was I think his 12th Game.
Towards the end of Bristol Game, the ref awarded a try, only to be told by the TMO the grounding was short. This ref then stated as he was playing an advantage for a yellow card offense, he would award a penalty try. He calmly talked it through with his officials, checked with the TMO and made the correct decision. 7 points Bristol who then scored again a seconds later and won with the last kick.
Towards the end of our game CMK, (very experienced) said we were held up over the line, maul had been collapsed in the movement towards the try line, yellow card to Irish player who had collapsed the maul, but to quote "was not involved in holding the ball up". Result another penalty and a few moves later we scored but missed the conversion. We did then score again but missed that conversion too.
CMK may be experienced but that does not make him a good ref, and his thought process in that incident was flawed and he should be sanctioned by the assessor. Did it make a difference to the result, who knows, it did seem to make a difference to the score line as we would have had 2 more points ahead of our last try. Would Spencer have kicked the last conversion, don't know but he may not have needed to try a drop goal.
My point is this experience does not necessarily make you any good, if you are poor ref like CMK you will be poor in your first game as well as your 90th! I do hope he gets dropped from the RFU panel as he is useless!
Towards the end of Bristol Game, the ref awarded a try, only to be told by the TMO the grounding was short. This ref then stated as he was playing an advantage for a yellow card offense, he would award a penalty try. He calmly talked it through with his officials, checked with the TMO and made the correct decision. 7 points Bristol who then scored again a seconds later and won with the last kick.
Towards the end of our game CMK, (very experienced) said we were held up over the line, maul had been collapsed in the movement towards the try line, yellow card to Irish player who had collapsed the maul, but to quote "was not involved in holding the ball up". Result another penalty and a few moves later we scored but missed the conversion. We did then score again but missed that conversion too.
CMK may be experienced but that does not make him a good ref, and his thought process in that incident was flawed and he should be sanctioned by the assessor. Did it make a difference to the result, who knows, it did seem to make a difference to the score line as we would have had 2 more points ahead of our last try. Would Spencer have kicked the last conversion, don't know but he may not have needed to try a drop goal.
My point is this experience does not necessarily make you any good, if you are poor ref like CMK you will be poor in your first game as well as your 90th! I do hope he gets dropped from the RFU panel as he is useless!
Quote:hasta
Spencer had a real off day. Stupid penalty kicking the ball out of the scrum half's hand. Missed touch at the end. Missed touch for them to run back and score, a few very short finders. Goal kicking not great. .
Agreed. He has been exceptional but some way off his excellent best today.
The fact he played the full 80 really shows we need to recruit at 9 Imho. Chudley clearly not seen as good enough to make a difference and fox/green not seen to be a better option than chudley even tho he's leaving
Do the Referees still get a fulldebrief on the Monday after a game with he Head Ref formally of this parish? Or has that all gone by the board with the RFU being so short of cash? (I am being sarcastic by the way, just in case .............),
At least it wasn't Carley............. my very favourite Ref.
At least it wasn't Carley............. my very favourite Ref.
Sorry, but Dunn’s was a cheap shot for me. He saw Creavy, lined him up and led with the elbow. Over runners are a part of every team’s strategy. Yes, Creavy might have milked it, but Dunn gave him the opportunity.
Just watched the game. Very frustrated at the stupidity on show but it was clear that we'd turned up expecting to win and then got upset when Irish were competitive. I would not start Ewels. Period.
MotM - Orlando Bailey. Looked perfectly at home, made good decisions, passing crisp, kick offs excellent, should never join a rolling maul ever again. Next time, trust him fully to run the game.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
MotM - Orlando Bailey. Looked perfectly at home, made good decisions, passing crisp, kick offs excellent, should never join a rolling maul ever again. Next time, trust him fully to run the game.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
At 60 minutes I was resigned to getting nothing from the game, so 2 x LBP seems a decent outcome in the end.
However the discipline is shocking and the coaches need to fix that.
Whelmed by Bailey, was not trusted with enough game management to take a view, but gut feeling is that he is not quite at this level yet. Despite what others say, I felt his restarts were too long and gave little opportunity. Still a wip.
Positives, McNally is truly awesome, his work rate and consistency are admirable. Miles Read continues to improve, for me he is ahead of Ellis by some way. Great to see him used as a LO option.
However the discipline is shocking and the coaches need to fix that.
Whelmed by Bailey, was not trusted with enough game management to take a view, but gut feeling is that he is not quite at this level yet. Despite what others say, I felt his restarts were too long and gave little opportunity. Still a wip.
Positives, McNally is truly awesome, his work rate and consistency are admirable. Miles Read continues to improve, for me he is ahead of Ellis by some way. Great to see him used as a LO option.
Quote:joethefanatic
Just watched the game. Very frustrated at the stupidity on show but it was clear that we'd turned up expecting to win and then got upset when Irish were competitive..
That was exactly my observation. Top teams just don't do that. Really poor mentality
I had an argument with a chap on Twitter about Ewel’s first card - looking at the world rugby head injury framework as CMK clearly stated Ewels tried to wrap (and therefore no foul play) it shod the even have been a penalty, just play on.
Dunn was naive to think he could fend with the elbow - I suspect Creevy had been on the wind up beforehand. Arguably if Dunn had milked the impact from Creevy it would have been a pen to us.
Ewels’ second card however was utterly brainless and I struggle to see what the coaches and Eddie see in him week in week out. Always at least one howler, and this week stupidity cost us.
Muir was stupid - it was obvious he couldn’t reach the ball, again, very naive.
On the plus side, I actually though Bailey played well - some lovely touches, great delayed passes to put people into space, attacked the line. Difficult for him when for right or wrong the more senior players ‘protected’ him by playing off 9 or bypassing him a lot of the time. Don’t agree he had to kick though - why add more pressure to him when Spencer is a proven kicker?
Dunn was naive to think he could fend with the elbow - I suspect Creevy had been on the wind up beforehand. Arguably if Dunn had milked the impact from Creevy it would have been a pen to us.
Ewels’ second card however was utterly brainless and I struggle to see what the coaches and Eddie see in him week in week out. Always at least one howler, and this week stupidity cost us.
Muir was stupid - it was obvious he couldn’t reach the ball, again, very naive.
On the plus side, I actually though Bailey played well - some lovely touches, great delayed passes to put people into space, attacked the line. Difficult for him when for right or wrong the more senior players ‘protected’ him by playing off 9 or bypassing him a lot of the time. Don’t agree he had to kick though - why add more pressure to him when Spencer is a proven kicker?
Not inconceivable that spencer will be our frontline kicker next season......tho cips has been practicing with JW.
I agree, I thought bailey did absolutely fine and staring a prem game having played next to no rugby for over a year is a huge ask. Hopefully he will get a few more goes between now and end of the season. Personally think he is one of 2 fit 10s now (assuming rhys only out for a few weeks) so have him in the 23 every week rather than rely on matavesi/redpath covering 10.
I agree, I thought bailey did absolutely fine and staring a prem game having played next to no rugby for over a year is a huge ask. Hopefully he will get a few more goes between now and end of the season. Personally think he is one of 2 fit 10s now (assuming rhys only out for a few weeks) so have him in the 23 every week rather than rely on matavesi/redpath covering 10.
Ewels first card unfortunate, unlucky. Second - silly: no excuse.
Dunn- as Rawce says, cheap shot. Creevy seemed intent on taking Dunn out of the defensive line- which does not excuse Dunn at all but is a blight on the game in my view. Dummy runners ahead of the ball are noe commonplace, but obstruction should not be indulged.
Muir was foolish but not malicious (that said he was lucky not to get red as it is outcome not intent that refs look at).
Irish had their own yellow cards of course and arguably there might have been more for interference with Bath's lineout and sacking mauls. That is not to say that these incidents cost Bath the game, rather that the whole match was poorly handled by the officials.
PG
Dunn- as Rawce says, cheap shot. Creevy seemed intent on taking Dunn out of the defensive line- which does not excuse Dunn at all but is a blight on the game in my view. Dummy runners ahead of the ball are noe commonplace, but obstruction should not be indulged.
Muir was foolish but not malicious (that said he was lucky not to get red as it is outcome not intent that refs look at).
Irish had their own yellow cards of course and arguably there might have been more for interference with Bath's lineout and sacking mauls. That is not to say that these incidents cost Bath the game, rather that the whole match was poorly handled by the officials.
PG
If he gets shielded too much he will eventually get restless& receptive to the rumour mill. It can be a very short career & treading water for too long will make him a transfer target for the likes of Exeter & Saracens. He will have noticed what Adam Hastings, with his super confidence & flashy hairstyle, has achieved. I agree that relieving him of goal kicking for a while is sensible but otherwise if he is good enough he is old enough. Another who I would like to see used more is Fox. He was looking really impressive 2 yrs ago but I’ve not seen him since!
We could so easily have won that.
IF Spencer's final kick had made touch I think we would have scored........
IF Spencer's final kick had made touch I think we would have scored........
I just would have loved to have seen what would have come from Spencer finding touch on the Irish 10m line. It was 13 v 13 so if we’d have mauled, perhaps another penalty, another kick to touch 5m out. Or we could have gone wide giving Watson or Muir some space or Ojunior the chance to be a hero!
I’d much rather we had got held up or knocked on rather than not kicking the penalty out! Such a shame the game ended like that. Ah well.
I’d much rather we had got held up or knocked on rather than not kicking the penalty out! Such a shame the game ended like that. Ah well.
Whatever we think about yesterday for me it was very pleasing to see Orlando Bailey playing, his confidence can only get better and we need to see how he manages a game but his core skills for a 10 were perfect, good passes, takes his backs forward towards the line, strong elusive running, solid tackling and he is not going to get pushed around as he has some size and physicality about him.
I don't agree with the protective side as I think it affected our team performance but seeing him playing was great for me. For me his performances will convince the coaches to stop 'mothering' him but for now lets be pleased with the fact he is on the pitch.
Had he had a few previous outings as some on here have been urging it might have been necessary to mollycoddle him.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
I don't agree with the protective side as I think it affected our team performance but seeing him playing was great for me. For me his performances will convince the coaches to stop 'mothering' him but for now lets be pleased with the fact he is on the pitch.
Had he had a few previous outings as some on here have been urging it might have been necessary to mollycoddle him.
No SJS, that's a misunderstanding of the framework. Initial contact with the head or neck constitute foul play, regardless of any attempt to wrap. There's no legal tackle which starts by making contact at that height. Entry point red mitigated down to yellow you can't mitigate down to a penalty.
I was v surprised when the discussion on ewels was pen or yellow as looked yellow at least, and v possible red to me based on officiating in recent weeks.
Likewise muir was v lucky that he landed OK, could v easily been red.
Dunns was odd but hard to argue.
Extraordinary to be so ill disciplined in the current environment- crazy shooting of ones own foot!
Likewise muir was v lucky that he landed OK, could v easily been red.
Dunns was odd but hard to argue.
Extraordinary to be so ill disciplined in the current environment- crazy shooting of ones own foot!
In 5 games yesterday there were 17 yellows and 3 red cards, we had another surge of reds two weeks ago and the 6N was blighted by red cards.
It seems that the view that coaches and players will learn to go lower quickly is simply not borne out.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
It seems that the view that coaches and players will learn to go lower quickly is simply not borne out.
Got to give Irish credit they played the ref really well.
Cowan should have gone for that totally unnecessary late and dangerous no arms charge into the ruck, basically as the ball was being passed away .
Creevy caused the Dunne card, you can't run upright face to face straight into players off the ball and not expect them to raise their arms in defence. Well milked though, at first looked like he'd hurt his throat/neck then when Dunne carded he was up and about no issues.
Only small silver lining is with Dunne out for a few weeks Doughty might finally get some game time, lets see what he can do.
OB got some game time and did ok
Thought Spencer did really well except for the last kick to touch, outside shot at lions ?
AW did well , didn't he hold up a try ?
McNally another good game
Walker best he's played for some time.
Muir is developing , one mistake, but reminds me of Jonny May
JC not the player he was before his injury by a long way.
2 points but should have bee 4 or five
CMK pretty poor its a toss up between him and Carley for who I never want to see with a whistle in their hand at a BBW game
Cowan should have gone for that totally unnecessary late and dangerous no arms charge into the ruck, basically as the ball was being passed away .
Creevy caused the Dunne card, you can't run upright face to face straight into players off the ball and not expect them to raise their arms in defence. Well milked though, at first looked like he'd hurt his throat/neck then when Dunne carded he was up and about no issues.
Only small silver lining is with Dunne out for a few weeks Doughty might finally get some game time, lets see what he can do.
OB got some game time and did ok
Thought Spencer did really well except for the last kick to touch, outside shot at lions ?
AW did well , didn't he hold up a try ?
McNally another good game
Walker best he's played for some time.
Muir is developing , one mistake, but reminds me of Jonny May
JC not the player he was before his injury by a long way.
2 points but should have bee 4 or five
CMK pretty poor its a toss up between him and Carley for who I never want to see with a whistle in their hand at a BBW game
Quote:LSAR
McNally another good game
With Ewels and Dunn blotting their copybooks I think Mcnally should be made captain. in fact considering we have so many internationals at Bath we don't really seem to have a stand out leader which is a big problem for us?
Quote:charlieboa
I was v surprised when the discussion on ewels was pen or yellow as looked yellow at least, and v possible red to me based on officiating in recent weeks.
Likewise muir was v lucky that he landed OK, could v easily been red.
Dunns was odd but hard to argue.
Extraordinary to be so ill disciplined in the current environment- crazy shooting of ones own foot!
I’ve only had the option to watch it on premier league highlights but the Ewels second yellow and Dunn red were both to me odd and soft. Both decisions technically correct but a strong ref would have asked what both LI players were doing ahead of the ball blocking the play. It almost looked like Dunn’s was an angry flick out to say ‘get out of the ****y way’. Maybe we need a new rule to say that illegal blocking is cheating and a firm punch on the nose from the defending player is permissible.
Quote:BeergogglesQuote:charlieboa
I was v surprised when the discussion on ewels was pen or yellow as looked yellow at least, and v possible red to me based on officiating in recent weeks.
Likewise muir was v lucky that he landed OK, could v easily been red.
Dunns was odd but hard to argue.
Extraordinary to be so ill disciplined in the current environment- crazy shooting of ones own foot!
I’ve only had the option to watch it on premier league highlights but the Ewels second yellow and Dunn red were both to me odd and soft. Both decisions technically correct but a strong ref would have asked what both LI players were doing ahead of the ball blocking the play. It almost looked like Dunn’s was an angry flick out to say ‘get out of the ****y way’. Maybe we need a new rule to say that illegal blocking is cheating and a firm punch on the nose from the defending player is permissible.
Very true, all this standing in front of the receiving catcher as passive blocking with points awarded for subtle wandering should cease, the law is in place to protect the catcher let it play out.
Hilarious comments on here.
Creevy ran a legitimate dummy line, the same as players on every team run every game. He had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunne and had his hands down - clearly not expecting any contact. Dunne then decided to swing a deliberate elbow into Creevy 's unprotected jaw.
Muir was very, very lucky. Showed no regard for the safety of the lifted player at all. Knew he wasn't going to get there but barrelled in anyway. Should have been red.
As for Captain Petulance himself...just symptomatic of Baths attitude all afternoon. Gigena had turned to chase back the kick through. At no point did he look at the Bath chasers or try to impede. Ewels saw an opportunity for a cheap shot and took it.
I know you're all a bit sore after conceding 5 points to your former feeder club, but try and open the other eye just a little bit eh?
Creevy ran a legitimate dummy line, the same as players on every team run every game. He had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunne and had his hands down - clearly not expecting any contact. Dunne then decided to swing a deliberate elbow into Creevy 's unprotected jaw.
Muir was very, very lucky. Showed no regard for the safety of the lifted player at all. Knew he wasn't going to get there but barrelled in anyway. Should have been red.
As for Captain Petulance himself...just symptomatic of Baths attitude all afternoon. Gigena had turned to chase back the kick through. At no point did he look at the Bath chasers or try to impede. Ewels saw an opportunity for a cheap shot and took it.
I know you're all a bit sore after conceding 5 points to your former feeder club, but try and open the other eye just a little bit eh?
Blarney
Re Creevy / Dunn... best get a new HD TV!
Muir was lucky and Ewels stupid to lose control.
Anyway, I like your back 3 and look forward to seeing them in the BB&W.
Re Creevy / Dunn... best get a new HD TV!
Muir was lucky and Ewels stupid to lose control.
Anyway, I like your back 3 and look forward to seeing them in the BB&W.
Blarney-maybe open your other eye and read all the posts giving you credit for playing well and saying we were actually pretty lucky with some of the decisions. I think you're a v good team , we didn't show you the respect you deserved and were punished for it.
I think mcnally was probably our only Irish old boy to do well (watson was a bit of a mixed bag, running straight into ewels kind if summed up England over the last 2 months). On recent form loader completely outplaying coko.
I think mcnally was probably our only Irish old boy to do well (watson was a bit of a mixed bag, running straight into ewels kind if summed up England over the last 2 months). On recent form loader completely outplaying coko.
Blarney,
A lot of rugby fans are very one eyed when it comes to their team. A couple of weeks ago was chatting with mates whilst enjoying Irish v Worcester game and we all commented on how well Luke Pearce refereed the game and got so many of the decisions right. I popped on to your board to see what wa s being said and wondered if I watched the same game. Apparently Pearce was useless and should never referee again!!! It’s amazing what people see when they have an interest in one of the teams.I couldn’t be bothered to post anything at the time as would just be inflammatory.
I actually agree with you about Dunn, he knew exactly what he was doing, was a red all day long, and Creevy did as you said in my eye.
Muir was lucky not to be a red but I think yellow was about right.
As for Ewels both yellows were spot on as the laws state and two yellows equal a red. No complaints with any of the decisions by CMK the players need to take responsibility for their decisions during the game which ultimately let them and the team down.
Your post however is not really becoming of rugby. There is ways of getting your point across and I don’t really feel that was such a great way of doing things.
A lot of rugby fans are very one eyed when it comes to their team. A couple of weeks ago was chatting with mates whilst enjoying Irish v Worcester game and we all commented on how well Luke Pearce refereed the game and got so many of the decisions right. I popped on to your board to see what wa s being said and wondered if I watched the same game. Apparently Pearce was useless and should never referee again!!! It’s amazing what people see when they have an interest in one of the teams.I couldn’t be bothered to post anything at the time as would just be inflammatory.
I actually agree with you about Dunn, he knew exactly what he was doing, was a red all day long, and Creevy did as you said in my eye.
Muir was lucky not to be a red but I think yellow was about right.
As for Ewels both yellows were spot on as the laws state and two yellows equal a red. No complaints with any of the decisions by CMK the players need to take responsibility for their decisions during the game which ultimately let them and the team down.
Your post however is not really becoming of rugby. There is ways of getting your point across and I don’t really feel that was such a great way of doing things.
Quote:Disunited
Blarney
Re Creevy / Dunn... best get a new HD TV!
Muir was lucky and Ewels stupid to lose control.
Anyway, I like your back 3 and look forward to seeing them in the BB&W.
Can't really see any of our lot leaving to join you these days, there's just nothing in it for them. You've flattered to deceive for too many years and now Bristol have leap frogged you as the number 1 team in the area. They've better facilities, better stadium and are looking much more likely to win things.
Still, thanks for the game, best of luck with the rest of your season.
Quote:FloridaQuote:Disunited
Blarney
Re Creevy / Dunn... best get a new HD TV!
Muir was lucky and Ewels stupid to lose control.
Anyway, I like your back 3 and look forward to seeing them in the BB&W.
Can't really see any of our lot leaving to join you these days, there's just nothing in it for them. You've flattered to deceive for too many years and now Bristol have leap frogged you as the number 1 team in the area. They've better facilities, better stadium and are looking much more likely to win things.
Still, thanks for the game, best of luck with the rest of your season.
In what way have Bristol got better facilities? I just don't understand that at all.
Training facilities of both Briz and Bath pretty impressive. Most fans would argue that Ashton Gate a better, smarter venue than the Rec. I don't agree for all the Rec's limitations because I prefer watching rugby in a rugby stadium, not football, and love going to matches in city centres, but each to their own.
Stuart Hooper “This team has character and I love that. “Really ?
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Adopted Player 2018/19 Ross Batty
Adopted Player 2019/20 Jack Davies
Adopted Player 2020/21 Cam Redpath
Adopted Player 2021/22 Darren Atkins
Adopted Player 2022/23 Gabriel Hamer-Webb
Adopted Player 2023/24 Tom Carr-Smith
Adopted Player 2024/25 Max Ojomoh
"AN OUNCE OF ACTION IS WORTH A TON OF THEORY"
FRIEDRICH ENGELS
Sounds like Irish aren't short of a bob or 2 if they can have a marquee player on 900k per season if this is right. Would make Coleman not far off best paid player in the prem?
[www.therugbypaper.co.uk]
[www.therugbypaper.co.uk]
Quote:AWP
I actually agree with you about Dunn, he knew exactly what he was doing, was a red all day long, and Creevy did as you said in my eye.
I think that’s a bit harsh. Agree by today’s ‘got to make a point’ red card rules it was a definite red but wouldn’t as if Dunny lined him up from 10 metres away. It looked like an annoyed reaction that I’m sure Dunn regretted immediately and will I’m sure learn from. The fact he shook the LI players hand as he ran off was a good sign.
Any kind of blocking run where you impact the defending player and you’re nowhere near the ball is illegal in my book. If people enjoy that sort of thing then the Americans play a game they might like.
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.
We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.
What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.
PG
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.
We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.
What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.
PG
Quote:P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.
We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.
What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.
PG
See for yourselves.
[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30
Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.
To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.
To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.
Thanks APUEA
Looks like Blarney is correct
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Looks like Blarney is correct
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Quote:shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.
To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.
The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.
Quote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.
We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.
What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.
PG
See for yourselves.
[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30
Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.
I agree but Creevy should never be there, the ball is miles away, should Dunn take the collision and risk injury head injury possibility?
Creepy is not innocent in all this, he knew exactly what he was doing.
Quote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.
To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.
The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.
No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.
We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.
What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.
PG
See for yourselves.
[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30
Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.
I agree but Creevy should never be there, the ball is miles away, should Dunn take the collision and risk injury head injury possibility?
Creepy is not innocent in all this, he knew exactly what he was doing.
Well if the ball is miles away then what is Dunn trying to achieve?
I dislike the dummy runner stuff, it seems to have been a Kiwi invention, but it is part of the game these days and only really matters when interfering with the actual ball player/receiver. Creevy's run is barely commentable in the overall context.
Quote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.
We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.
What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.
PG
See for yourselves.
[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30
Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.
I agree but Creevy should never be there, the ball is miles away, should Dunn take the collision and risk injury head injury possibility?
Creepy is not innocent in all this, he knew exactly what he was doing.
Well if the ball is miles away then what is Dunn trying to achieve?
I dislike the dummy runner stuff, it seems to have been a Kiwi invention, but it is part of the game these days and only really matters when interfering with the actual ball player/receiver. Creevy's run is barely commentable in the overall context.
Answered above, equally.... if the ball is miles away then what is Creevy trying to achieve?
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.
To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.
The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.
No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.
Got no idea what you're watching or what eyes you are using now. Dunn could have easily just shoved Creevy ( who was slowing down from not that fast ). You seem so be suggesting an elbow to the jaw in that situation is fair enough. Well I disagree strongly.
Maxwell Keys is a really poor and weak referee who appears to dislike the way Bath play and our penalty count against when he officiates appears disproportionate compared to the opposition albeit we didn't help ourselves.
Karl Dickson having an absolute shocker today at Welford Rd he really may as well be wearing a tigers shirt, imagine Deano and Co will be having a few words post match.
Refereeing in the Premiership this season has been awful at times.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:28:15:52:05 by Ali1969.
Karl Dickson having an absolute shocker today at Welford Rd he really may as well be wearing a tigers shirt, imagine Deano and Co will be having a few words post match.
Refereeing in the Premiership this season has been awful at times.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:28:15:52:05 by Ali1969.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:P G Tips
Blarney's argument above is that Creevy had slowed to avoid clattering into Dunn. I recall it differently but have yet to see a replay to confirm either way.
Dunn's reaction was stupid, but it is quite possible Creevy's action was illegal -unfortunately all too often indulged by referees these days.
We will never know what might have happened had Dunn simply braced for contact and the two players collided - whether either would have been injured or the ref felt the need to take action.
What we do know is Dunn used an elbow to the throat or jaw- which is clearly red.
PG
See for yourselves.
[www.youtube.com] at approx 3:30
Creevy is slowing up, Dunn appears to lead out with his elbow rather than trying to avoid. IMV.
I agree but Creevy should never be there, the ball is miles away, should Dunn take the collision and risk injury head injury possibility?
Creepy is not innocent in all this, he knew exactly what he was doing.
Well if the ball is miles away then what is Dunn trying to achieve?
I dislike the dummy runner stuff, it seems to have been a Kiwi invention, but it is part of the game these days and only really matters when interfering with the actual ball player/receiver. Creevy's run is barely commentable in the overall context.
Answered above, equally.... if the ball is miles away then what is Creevy trying to achieve?
No, it's not 'equally'. He's part of an attacking line, lots of players aren't close to the ball. Do you watch rugby? This is basic stuff.
Quote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.
To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.
The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.
No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.
Got no idea what you're watching or what eyes you are using now. Dunn could have easily just shoved Creevy ( who was slowing down from not that fast ). You seem so be suggesting an elbow to the jaw in that situation is fair enough. Well I disagree strongly.
If you are going to comment you have to be balanced or you simply loose all credibility. In no way did I say that. That is offensive. Be reasonable or don't post.
It looks to me like Dunny is 100% at fault and he knows it - hence the hand shake by way of apology as he leaves the field. Whether or not Creevy should have been there is irrelevant: you can't go round clocking people in the chin just because you think they're in the wrong.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Dunn didn’t raise his elbow or make contact with Creevy. But any suggestion by people they know the intent is clearly guesswork.
What was said was that Irish made good use of runners ahead of the ball carrier, however this is only legal if they don’t make contact with the defender. On occasion this was not the case and appeared to be obstruction, but this is for the officials to police - not the players.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Bath’s cards were not deserved and possibly even lucky not to be 3 reds.
What was said was that Irish made good use of runners ahead of the ball carrier, however this is only legal if they don’t make contact with the defender. On occasion this was not the case and appeared to be obstruction, but this is for the officials to police - not the players.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Bath’s cards were not deserved and possibly even lucky not to be 3 reds.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.
To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.
The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.
No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.
Got no idea what you're watching or what eyes you are using now. Dunn could have easily just shoved Creevy ( who was slowing down from not that fast ). You seem so be suggesting an elbow to the jaw in that situation is fair enough. Well I disagree strongly.
If you are going to comment you have to be balanced or you simply loose all credibility. In no way did I say that. That is offensive. Be reasonable or don't post.
Offensive?! Jeez. I didn't say you said that I said you suggested it since you seem to imply that Dunn had no other option because of where Creevy was positioned. I disagree, he made a deliberate, unnecessary action. Think your representation of facts is significantly less balanced.
Judging by the yellow just given in the Leicester v Newcastle game for a shoulder charge into a shoulder, Cowan on Thomas should’ve been at least a yellow. I don’t think it was even a penalty.
Quote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwreckedQuote:APigUnderEachArmQuote:shipwrecked
If you use your arm to defend yourself its pretty hard not to be at neck height because the shoulder joint is at neck height anyway. As soon as the arm gets to the optimum bracing position for contact its inevitable.
The only thing to do is use an arm at a lower position or move out of the way. I think there was a bit of score settling off ball going on.
To my mind this blocking and lazy running should be seen in the same way as crossing. Problem is its a penalty sanction and there are too many ways to get a penalty nowadays.
Sadly teams are playing to get players penalised these days, in the scrum, dramatic falls, appealing to the ref. its a bad trait.
The answer is to use a hand off/push not an elbow. Dunn could have easily done that. As could Finn Russell on Friday in what was arguably a lower level of offence.
No, sorry think of the physics of that, a hand of towards a forward at speed if straight could lead to a broken arm, or would just crumple. Why didn't Creevy slow up? He had time, he was on a run to punch a hole with the ball nowhere close. You can't absolve Creevy of blame, he is not an innocent victim.
Got no idea what you're watching or what eyes you are using now. Dunn could have easily just shoved Creevy ( who was slowing down from not that fast ). You seem so be suggesting an elbow to the jaw in that situation is fair enough. Well I disagree strongly.
If you are going to comment you have to be balanced or you simply loose all credibility. In no way did I say that. That is offensive. Be reasonable or don't post.
Offensive?! Jeez. I didn't say you said that I said you suggested it since you seem to imply that Dunn had no other option because of where Creevy was positioned. I disagree, he made a deliberate, unnecessary action. Think your representation of facts is significantly less balanced.
Read whats been said, look at the image posted, its an off the ball incident, the ball has long gone, Dunn was completely wrong but Creevy put himself there deliberately , why didn't Creevy put his arms up to reduce contact I wonder? That's my representation.
I thought all reds and yellows were fair. I don't think you can have watched much rugby over the last year to think otherwise. Only decision I thought the ref maybe got wrong was the clear out of Thomas which probably should have been yellows. I think the TMO needs to take some responsibility for forward passes in the leadup to tries. I think they can be hard to spot for referees if they are not in line.
Overall, Irish are a good side, but with better discipline we would have won that. Annoying in the short term but lots of positives for the long term still I think. Bailey being just one
Overall, Irish are a good side, but with better discipline we would have won that. Annoying in the short term but lots of positives for the long term still I think. Bailey being just one
Without wanting to give spoilers, a try that was just disallowed in the Leicester game because of an off the ball elbow looked a lot like Dunn’s red to me. Just a penalty awarded in today’s game.
I agree - the cards yesterday looked fair to me but judging by what Dickson is giving today, I wish he’d reffed our game yesterday!
I agree - the cards yesterday looked fair to me but judging by what Dickson is giving today, I wish he’d reffed our game yesterday!
I don't think anyone can dispute either reds or yellow we received, and indeed Ewels first yellow Maxwell Keys was.goind to just give a penalty until one of the touch judges intervened.
Having watched Maxwell Keys officiate all over the Premiership there just appears to be something about either our style or technique he does not like or it maybe he is the unlucky referee for us. It just seems we always appear on the wrong side or Mr Maxwell Keys and our penalty count always appears disproportionate.
As for Dickson and the officials today they are appalling especially for Falcons. Good to see Wieae has learnt so much about illegal clear outs from his red card.
Having watched Maxwell Keys officiate all over the Premiership there just appears to be something about either our style or technique he does not like or it maybe he is the unlucky referee for us. It just seems we always appear on the wrong side or Mr Maxwell Keys and our penalty count always appears disproportionate.
As for Dickson and the officials today they are appalling especially for Falcons. Good to see Wieae has learnt so much about illegal clear outs from his red card.
Quote:dr.bath1865
Without wanting to give spoilers, a try that was just disallowed in the Leicester game because of an off the ball elbow looked a lot like Dunn’s red to me. Just a penalty awarded in today’s game.
I agree - the cards yesterday looked fair to me but judging by what Dickson is giving today, I wish he’d reffed our game yesterday!
That card proves that the idea that off the ball contact "only really matters when interfering with the actual ball player/receiver." is false.
Law 9 Foul Play includes this:
"A player must not intentionally prevent an opponent from tackling or attempting to tackle the ball carrier."The point made is about obstruction of the defender not the ball carrier.
Not that Creevy actually did that, but it did look as if he was on his way to-until he pulled back. Hence the interest and debate.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
I don't have any issue with any of the cards, actually think that Muir was lucky. Hoops also says they were fair enough.
I also don't mind Mr Maxwell Keys. Karl Dickson was Ok for the Tigers game today as well. The only one really dodgy recently was the guy in charge of the Newcastle vs Wasps game, he looked terrified.
Shame about the match yesterday, was looking to be a good competition before the brain farts. Bailey made no mistakes which is great, they need to let him have a bit more ball though IMO. Hugely missed RMc yesterday IMO. Good to see Henry T coming right back into form.
Onwards to the next one...COYB!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
I also don't mind Mr Maxwell Keys. Karl Dickson was Ok for the Tigers game today as well. The only one really dodgy recently was the guy in charge of the Newcastle vs Wasps game, he looked terrified.
Shame about the match yesterday, was looking to be a good competition before the brain farts. Bailey made no mistakes which is great, they need to let him have a bit more ball though IMO. Hugely missed RMc yesterday IMO. Good to see Henry T coming right back into form.
Onwards to the next one...COYB!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
For me, Creevy was guilty of breaching law 9.2 - An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play. Clearly in front of the ball, and deliberately running into Dunn.
Quote:SJS
For me, Creevy was guilty of breaching law 9.2 - An offside player must not intentionally obstruct an opponent or interfere with play. Clearly in front of the ball, and deliberately running into Dunn.
Thing is, foul play trumps a technical offence.
Next time I suspect Dunn will allow himelf to get hit, go down like a sack of spuds, and pretend to be an Argie soccer player.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:28:20:25:10 by Dorset Boy.
Not a technical offence DB.
Law 9 is foul play.
I agree with your point though - dangerous play more serious.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
Law 9 is foul play.
I agree with your point though - dangerous play more serious.
P G Tips
Jaco Coetzee: my adopted Player, 2023-24.
My view is that the reds were the correct decision and that Muir was lucky to only get a yellow. Two points - I don’t understand why the Cowan incident wasn’t at least reviewed; there seemed no attempt to wrap an arm and what was he trying to achieve -simply an attempt to ‘hurt’ Thomas? Secondly to me Creevy appeared to milk the situation, only he will know of course - but this seems to be something that is creeping into the game - rather like footballers trying to get a free kick or worse getting someone sent off.
Quote:Just as our footballers have closed the technical gap with their South American counterparts they're also now pretty good at diving too. I agree that it is becoming a bit more common to see.Dorset Boy
Next time I suspect Dunn will allow himelf to get him, go down like a sack of spuds, and pretend to be an Argie soccer player.
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?
Quote:hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?
Exactly hasta. And what aspect of the game are the authorities trying to eliminate through sanctions?
Yes, it was an instictive reaction. No it wasn't ever likely to cause any injury but absolutely it was foul play and a strike to the neck/head so red card it had to be. Dunn, other players and coaching team simply need to learn from it but it can take some time to coach someone out of habitual, instinctive reactions
At the end of all this we are 9th in the table & with all the stars in our lineup have to do a whole lot better if we expect to get in the top 6.
Quote:Bath Hammer
At the end of all this we are 9th in the table & with all the stars in our lineup have to do a whole lot better if we expect to get in the top 6.
Except we're 8th and 5 points off 5th.
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:Bath Hammer
At the end of all this we are 9th in the table & with all the stars in our lineup have to do a whole lot better if we expect to get in the top 6.
Except we're 8th and 5 points off 5th.
Being a bit of a pedant we would need 6 extra points to go 5th on current points difference but it is a gap that is very bridgeable with the games left
BH is totally correct that you would expect Bath to have done better with the talent on show - if you take the matches out when they weren't available I suspect that we would probably be bottom?
Gaz the games left don't look that easy to me! Tigers, Bris, Sale, Quins, Saints all on form at the moment. We have 4 of the top 5 there.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:29:08:20:44 by BathMatt53.
Gaz the games left don't look that easy to me! Tigers, Bris, Sale, Quins, Saints all on form at the moment. We have 4 of the top 5 there.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:29:08:20:44 by BathMatt53.
Quote:hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?
I've looked at this very carefully again.
Dunn was very static in defence and was ball watching. He was looking to see if a runner was going to cut back inside and was guarding the fringe of the breakdown.
He wasn't watching Creevy.
Creevy instigated contact. He was ahead of the ball and was approaching from Dunn's blindside. He was in an upright position and was clearly intent on taking Dunn out of the defensive line.
Dunn spotted him late and threw his arms up in the air as a reflex action. There is no doubt that his elbow caught Creevy in the throat. I don't believe he had any intention of striking Creevy at all. If he hadn't struck him I think it's very likely that Bath would (or at least should) have been awarded a penalty for Creevy being offside and taking Dunn out.
I think Creevy knew exactly what he was doing. It was a cynical bit of play, but Creevy is a cynical player, playing a cynical game. He rolled around to make sure he got maximum attention and then got up and trotted back as soon as the ref reached for his pocket.
According to the latest sanctions Dunn probably had to go. He hit Creevy in the throat with his elbow.
However, once again, in my view the law is an ass.
Quote:malcoQuote:hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?
I've looked at this very carefully again.
Dunn was very static in defence and was ball watching. He was looking to see if a runner was going to cut back inside and was guarding the fringe of the breakdown.
He wasn't watching Creevy.
Creevy instigated contact. He was ahead of the ball and was approaching from Dunn's blindside. He was in an upright position and was clearly intent on taking Dunn out of the defensive line.
Dunn spotted him late and threw his arms up in the air as a reflex action. There is no doubt that his elbow caught Creevy in the throat. I don't believe he had any intention of striking Creevy at all. If he hadn't struck him I think it's very likely that Bath would (or at least should) have been awarded a penalty for Creevy being offside and taking Dunn out.
I think Creevy knew exactly what he was doing. It was a cynical bit of play, but Creevy is a cynical player, playing a cynical game. He rolled around to make sure he got maximum attention and then got up and trotted back as soon as the ref reached for his pocket.
According to the latest sanctions Dunn probably had to go. He hit Creevy in the throat with his elbow.
However, once again, in my view the law is an ass.
I've honestly no idea what you've been watching. It's here at 3.17. Creevy is coming to a stop in front of Dunn, with the ball long gone. It's the kind of innocuous interaction that happens dozens of times a game. Only this time Dunn lunges forward with his elbow into Creevy's throat.
[www.youtube.com]
Quote:Margin_WalkerQuote:malcoQuote:hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?
I've looked at this very carefully again.
Dunn was very static in defence and was ball watching. He was looking to see if a runner was going to cut back inside and was guarding the fringe of the breakdown.
He wasn't watching Creevy.
Creevy instigated contact. He was ahead of the ball and was approaching from Dunn's blindside. He was in an upright position and was clearly intent on taking Dunn out of the defensive line.
Dunn spotted him late and threw his arms up in the air as a reflex action. There is no doubt that his elbow caught Creevy in the throat. I don't believe he had any intention of striking Creevy at all. If he hadn't struck him I think it's very likely that Bath would (or at least should) have been awarded a penalty for Creevy being offside and taking Dunn out.
I think Creevy knew exactly what he was doing. It was a cynical bit of play, but Creevy is a cynical player, playing a cynical game. He rolled around to make sure he got maximum attention and then got up and trotted back as soon as the ref reached for his pocket.
According to the latest sanctions Dunn probably had to go. He hit Creevy in the throat with his elbow.
However, once again, in my view the law is an ass.
I've honestly no idea what you've been watching. It's here at 3.17. Creevy is coming to a stop in front of Dunn, with the ball long gone. It's the kind of innocuous interaction that happens dozens of times a game. Only this time Dunn lunges forward with his elbow into Creevy's throat.
[www.youtube.com]
Creevy is nowhere near the ball. He is in front of play. He is not running into space so therefore it is not a dummy run. He is not trying to attract defenders out of the defensive line. He is running at Dunn to instigate contact with Dunn. The fact he slows up in front of Dunn is irrelevant.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:29:09:59:48 by malco.
Okay Malco. Will leave you to it. Although I'd say it was Dunn who instigated contact fairly forcefully, rather than Creevy.
Quote:Margin_Walker
Okay Malco. Will leave you to it. Although I'd say it was Dunn who instigated contact fairly forcefully, rather than Creevy.
Nope. If Creevy hadn't run at Dunn with the intention of taking out Dunn, Dunn would not have made contact with Creevy.
As I say, the fact that Dunn indisputably made contact with Creevy's throat with his elbow means that he has to go. But that's what you want rugby to be now is it? A cynical competition to try to get your opponents sent off with added rolling around on the floor?
In my view it's the death of rugby.
Quote:malcoQuote:Margin_Walker
Okay Malco. Will leave you to it. Although I'd say it was Dunn who instigated contact fairly forcefully, rather than Creevy.
Nope. If Creevy hadn't run at Dunn with the intention of taking out Dunn, Dunn would not have made contact with Creevy.
As I say, the fact that Dunn indisputably made contact with Creevy's throat with his elbow means that he has to go. But that's what you want rugby to be now is it? A cynical competition to try to get your opponents sent off with added rolling around on the floor?
In my view it's the death of rugby.
Of course it is.
Anyway, good luck for the rest of the season. Good to see McNally doing well for you guys. He's a cracking player.
Lets park what Dunn did, he shouldn't have done it and he got a red card, fine. The question is what was Creevy trying to do before that. He isn't paying attention to the ball and he is delberately heading for Dunn who is almost static.
Quote:gaz59Quote:hasta
I'll repeat what I said earlier - what possible legal action could Dunn have been trying to do?
Exactly hasta. And what aspect of the game are the authorities trying to eliminate through sanctions?
Yes, it was an instictive reaction. No it wasn't ever likely to cause any injury but absolutely it was foul play and a strike to the neck/head so red card it had to be. Dunn, other players and coaching team simply need to learn from it but it can take some time to coach someone out of habitual, instinctive reactions
I do find it interesting how far these laws have drifted from the original reasoning - to protect the ball carrier and improve tackling habit and how we seem to have just taken that as a given.
I don't think laws designed to protect the ball carrier are necessarily the best laws to regulate off the ball contact between two nearly stationary players who, by the law, are not allowed to tackle each other. So why are we using tackle laws?
Quote:woodpecker
Lets park what Dunn did, he shouldn't have done it and he got a red card, fine. The question is what was Creevy trying to do before that. He isn't paying attention to the ball and he is delberately heading for Dunn who is almost static.
I agree, Dunn's stupidity is agreed by almost everyone on here but what was Creevy doing or intending to do? As pointed out above it wasn't legal.
The whole issue of players in front of the ball blocking is beginning to look like American football players screening. Needs looking at.
You could interpret Dunn's 'offence' as putting up his arm to protect himself from illegal cynical contact. There is no justification within the laws for what Creevey did either initiating contact with a defensive player or at the very least deliberately obstructing him.
This should be a penalty as per the laws as it is cynical and if refereed properly would soon stop. The same as putting a wall of players inform of someone catching a kick off. If you are in front of the player catching the ball and between that player and an opposition player you are offside. the fact you are stationary is irrelevant. Move out the way there is no other time where being stationary interfering with the opposition is an excuse for offside. If you are in front of a kicker you must retreat from the catching player and can only 'wait' to be put onside if you are not anywhere close to the ball.
I am guessing that due to the strange hearing rules that means you get mitigation for saying I did it and being a good boy at the hearing Dunn will please guilty so the 6 weeks gets reduced to 3 and there will be no opportunity for the panel to be asked to consider what the LI player did.
This should be a penalty as per the laws as it is cynical and if refereed properly would soon stop. The same as putting a wall of players inform of someone catching a kick off. If you are in front of the player catching the ball and between that player and an opposition player you are offside. the fact you are stationary is irrelevant. Move out the way there is no other time where being stationary interfering with the opposition is an excuse for offside. If you are in front of a kicker you must retreat from the catching player and can only 'wait' to be put onside if you are not anywhere close to the ball.
I am guessing that due to the strange hearing rules that means you get mitigation for saying I did it and being a good boy at the hearing Dunn will please guilty so the 6 weeks gets reduced to 3 and there will be no opportunity for the panel to be asked to consider what the LI player did.
I don't really understand what the debate is - its not foul play to run up to someone as Creevy did, although he did act like he had been shot but that's not a crime either. Dunn hit him in the throat / chin then went over to say sorry and Hoops says it was the right decision...
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
If Dunn hadn't made contact with Creevy, then the run of Creevy would never have been discussed. It's one of those annoying dummy runs that are never going to confuse a defence but do clutter up the game.
Dunn is at fault and I think he knows that when he apologises to Creevy as he is sent off. He is an excellent club man and leader and clearly wanted to make an impact from the bench for the team. I am sure he will not do anything this dumb again even if I don't think there was malice involved.
Dunn is at fault and I think he knows that when he apologises to Creevy as he is sent off. He is an excellent club man and leader and clearly wanted to make an impact from the bench for the team. I am sure he will not do anything this dumb again even if I don't think there was malice involved.
Quote:Never In Doubt
If Dunn hadn't made contact with Creevy, then the run of Creevy would never have been discussed. It's one of those annoying dummy runs that are never going to confuse a defence but do clutter up the game.
Dunn is at fault and I think he knows that when he apologises to Creevy as he is sent off. He is an excellent club man and leader and clearly wanted to make an impact from the bench for the team. I am sure he will not do anything this dumb again even if I don't think there was malice involved.
I completely disagree with this.
You make a dummy run into space to try to drag defenders out of position to create space.
Creevy wasn't running into space. He had his eyes fixed on Dunn and he was running at Dunn. His intention was to take him out, not to try to draw him out of position.
Dunn didn't turn and look at Creevy until Creevy was almost on him. Creevy did slow down but Dunn still saw him very late and, I think, lifted his arms as a reflex action because he thought Creevy was about to run into him.
Dunn did not run towards Creevy or try to establish contact with him.
If I thought that Dunn had made a conscious decision to elbow Creevy in the throat I would be calling for him to have a few weeks off. I don't see that at all.
Quote:malco
If I thought that Dunn had made a conscious decision to elbow Creevy in the throat I would be calling for him to have a few weeks off. I don't see that at all.
That's the same as most of the red cards though isn't it, for example taking someone out in the air? I doubt any of the player are running towards the jumper thinking 'I'm going to take this guy out in the air'. It's unconscious, but nonetheless foul play. I agree that Dunn wasn't thinking he wanted to elbow him in the throat and I'm sure the RFU disciplinary matrix will show exactly that.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:malco
If I thought that Dunn had made a conscious decision to elbow Creevy in the throat I would be calling for him to have a few weeks off. I don't see that at all.
That's the same as most of the red cards though isn't it, for example taking someone out in the air? I doubt any of the player are running towards the jumper thinking 'I'm going to take this guy out in the air'. It's unconscious, but nonetheless foul play. I agree that Dunn wasn't thinking he wanted to elbow him in the throat and I'm sure the RFU disciplinary matrix will show exactly that.
Exactly. It is showing players through sanctions that instinctive reactions that involve contact with neck/head are unacceptable even though, by definition, there is no malicious intent
What also doesn't help Dunn is that he does appear in this case to lean slightly towards Creevy. So even if raising his arm may have been an instinctive, though illegal, reaction by leaning forward it accentuates the picture the ref will see
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:malco
If I thought that Dunn had made a conscious decision to elbow Creevy in the throat I would be calling for him to have a few weeks off. I don't see that at all.
That's the same as most of the red cards though isn't it, for example taking someone out in the air? I doubt any of the player are running towards the jumper thinking 'I'm going to take this guy out in the air'. It's unconscious, but nonetheless foul play. I agree that Dunn wasn't thinking he wanted to elbow him in the throat and I'm sure the RFU disciplinary matrix will show exactly that.
And this is the crux of the issue.
When red cards were introduced to the game it was with the express justification that they were for use for serious foul play only.
The first Ewels yellow is another case in point. He wasn't trying to shoulder charge Loader. It was two rugby players moving towards each other and an unplanned collision. For the second time this season Ewels has effectively been carded for being bigger than the bloke he has collided with.
We are seeing players being sent off for collisions in a sport which is based on collisions. That is a farce.
His second yellow card was borne of frustration - having seen the Irish pack get away with blocking and spoiling all game and having just seen the ref being conned into giving Dunn a red he has then been blocked from making a tackle quite deliberately and has whacked the cheat in the back. Yes, he has lost his head, no he didn't need to do it, but he is a human being and like all human beings runs on emotion. What he did here was what rugby players have been doing a million times over since the game began. Throughout the history of the game you know that you can get away with blocking a tackler maybe four times out of ten, and you'll get penalised for it maybe six times out of ten. You know that if you block the tackler you'll get a smack in the ribs from the player you are blocking, but you accept this as part of the game. You cheat, you take your scoop, you get on with it and you laugh about it over a beer after the match.
Now you cheat to try to get your opponent sent off. You roll around on the ground, squeal like a @#$%& and then jog off when the ref pulls the card out. That is the death of all of the core values of rugby.
[quote malco][quote BathMatt53][quote malco]
I. What he did here was what rugby players have been doing a million times over since the game began. Throughout the history of the game you know that you can get away with blocking a tackler maybe four times out of ten, and you'll get penalised for it maybe six times out of ten. You know that if you block the tackler you'll get a smack in the ribs from the player you are blocking, but you accept this as part of the game. You cheat, you take your scoop, you get on with it and you laugh about it over a beer after the match.
Now you cheat to try to get your opponent sent off. You roll around on the ground, squeal like a @#$%& and then jog off when the ref pulls the card out. That is the death of all of the core values of rugby.[/quote]
+1
I. What he did here was what rugby players have been doing a million times over since the game began. Throughout the history of the game you know that you can get away with blocking a tackler maybe four times out of ten, and you'll get penalised for it maybe six times out of ten. You know that if you block the tackler you'll get a smack in the ribs from the player you are blocking, but you accept this as part of the game. You cheat, you take your scoop, you get on with it and you laugh about it over a beer after the match.
Now you cheat to try to get your opponent sent off. You roll around on the ground, squeal like a @#$%& and then jog off when the ref pulls the card out. That is the death of all of the core values of rugby.[/quote]
+1
Quote:malco
Now you cheat to try to get your opponent sent off. You roll around on the ground, squeal like a @#$%& and then jog off when the ref pulls the card out. That is the death of all of the core values of rugby.
I don't think that the death of anything, its just one player acting like a tool. Exactly the same as Huget vs Agulla in 2015 and also Habana vs Farrell in 2016 when he took a dive.
I would be amazed if it was copied by anyone, its all bit cringe.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:29:14:28:44 by BathMatt53.
It will be interesting to see which law is referenced in Tom Dunn's citing...
Could definitely impact the range of any potential ban.
Could definitely impact the range of any potential ban.
Quote:Can he be cited even though he was punished by the yellow card at the time? I had it in mind that citing was only for incidents that were missed at the time or like in last week’s Newcastle match when the officials decide to ‘put it on report’.Norton Canes
Rumour that Will Muir has been cited ?
Quote:dcshQuote:Can he be cited even though he was punished by the yellow card at the time? I had it in mind that citing was only for incidents that were missed at the time or like in last week’s Newcastle match when the officials decide to ‘put it on report’.Norton Canes
Rumour that Will Muir has been cited ?
Yes they can.
Citing Commissioners may cite players for an act(s) of foul play detected by the Match Officials (referee, assistant referee or TMO) and which may have been the subject of referee action. As a general rule, the Citing Commissioner should carefully consider the actions taken by the Match Officials and support the on-field decision and only consider taking action if it is ‘clear and obvious’, based on all the evidence available to the Citing Commissioner post-match, that the player actions justify a citing (red card equivalent) or Citing Commissioner Warning.
A Citing Commissioner may not cite a player for an act(s) of foul play when the player has been sent off except where the sending off is a consequence of two yellow cards. A player in that situation may also be cited for the act(s) of foul play which resulted in either or both yellow card(s).
[officiating.worldrugby.org].
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Belly!
Muir was cited by independent citing commissioner Duncan Bell following the same match. This was for tackling London Irish's Rob Simmons in the air, contrary to World Rugby Law 9.17.
Muir was cited by independent citing commissioner Duncan Bell following the same match. This was for tackling London Irish's Rob Simmons in the air, contrary to World Rugby Law 9.17.
"We are seeing players being sent off for collisions in a sport which is based on collisions. That is a farce."
That has to be fundamentally wrong
Surely the first and primary principle of rugby is that it is played by running and passing.
Collisions should be considered as primarily there to stop a player from running and/or passing and then to gain possession of the ball.
If collisions become promoted to a more central aspect of the game at the detriment of running and passing then we are evolving towards Rollerball. That will literally be the death of the game
That has to be fundamentally wrong
Surely the first and primary principle of rugby is that it is played by running and passing.
Collisions should be considered as primarily there to stop a player from running and/or passing and then to gain possession of the ball.
If collisions become promoted to a more central aspect of the game at the detriment of running and passing then we are evolving towards Rollerball. That will literally be the death of the game
Quote:Thanks Matt, interesting, not sure what it says about the officiating team when this happens. I get it when things are missed and not everything can be reviewed during the match, but when it has been reviewed and it gets overridden should the officials get sanctioned too.BathMatt53Quote:dcshQuote:Can he be cited even though he was punished by the yellow card at the time? I had it in mind that citing was only for incidents that were missed at the time or like in last week’s Newcastle match when the officials decide to ‘put it on report’.Norton Canes
Rumour that Will Muir has been cited ?
Yes they can.
Citing Commissioners may cite players for an act(s) of foul play detected by the Match Officials (referee, assistant referee or TMO) and which may have been the subject of referee action. As a general rule, the Citing Commissioner should carefully consider the actions taken by the Match Officials and support the on-field decision and only consider taking action if it is ‘clear and obvious’, based on all the evidence available to the Citing Commissioner post-match, that the player actions justify a citing (red card equivalent) or Citing Commissioner Warning.
A Citing Commissioner may not cite a player for an act(s) of foul play when the player has been sent off except where the sending off is a consequence of two yellow cards. A player in that situation may also be cited for the act(s) of foul play which resulted in either or both yellow card(s).
[officiating.worldrugby.org].
Was it my imagination or did Creevy wink to a team mate after Dunner had shaken his hand and turned to walk off?
One of the first things U6s and U7s are taught is that rugby is a game of evasion.....
Quote:Dorset Boy
One of the first things U6s and U7s are taught is that rugby is a game of evasion.....
If that were really the case then players like Billy V wouldn't exist!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:Dorset Boy
One of the first things U6s and U7s are taught is that rugby is a game of evasion.....
If that were really the case then players like Billy V wouldn't exist!
It is the case, but contact comes later, and then you get the big guys enjoying steamrollering the small ones, and contact becomes a part of the game.
But at outset, they are taught it is a game of evasion.
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:BathMatt53Quote:Dorset Boy
One of the first things U6s and U7s are taught is that rugby is a game of evasion.....
If that were really the case then players like Billy V wouldn't exist!
It is the case, but contact comes later, and then you get the big guys enjoying steamrollering the small ones, and contact becomes a part of the game.
But at outset, they are taught it is a game of evasion.
But, crucially, the thing doing the evading is the ball. The players are just there to change its direction.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
DB, my experience was quite the opposite. I coached minis through to youth in a football-dominated area (Edinburgh). The lads I got to coach were those that had already been ejected from the football because they were too physical (and/or too big for footie). The reason they joined the rugby was because they were able to run into each other. I spent half my time shouting 'ball' - just to remind them that there was more to the game! Was that wrong? I don't think so. They're in their late 20s now - several of them still turn out for their clubs (pre pandemic). None of them became 'stars' - but they all enjoyed their Saturday afternoons. Thats what its all about isnt it?
OBinFiji
OBinFiji
Jeepers, did none of you read my original post and the age group I referenced?
Kidney Stone, no it was not your imagination! I saw that as well, and it says a lot about the whole incident.
Quote:ShortyinBurnham
Kidney Stone, no it was not your imagination! I saw that as well, and it says a lot about the whole incident.
Creevy is the kind of player it is easy to admire and easy to dislike. Prob depends whether he is on your team to an extent. Didnt exude class did it (not that I didn't think it was a red in the current climate).
Personally think dummy runners with little chance or intention of getting the ball is similar to being on the wrong side of the ruck was years ago. Rucks used to be self policed by players via a good shoeing. Refs have to ref it properly in the way they now have zero tolerance to lying on the wrong side (so players only really find themselves there by genuine misjudgement or being completely trapped).
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:BathMatt53Quote:Dorset Boy
One of the first things U6s and U7s are taught is that rugby is a game of evasion.....
If that were really the case then players like Billy V wouldn't exist!
It is the case, but contact comes later, and then you get the big guys enjoying steamrollering the small ones, and contact becomes a part of the game.
But at outset, they are taught it is a game of evasion.
Look, it is a lot like boxing from that point of view. The ideal is to hit and not get hit. The reality though is that collision in rugby is inevitable. The bigger and faster the players are the bigger the collisions will be. You can't manage collisions because collisions are not planned impact. Tackles are managed. Collisions aren't. You can't referee a collision the same way that you referee a tackle. A tackle is a technical process, a collision is an accident.
Quote:ShortyinBurnham
Kidney Stone, no it was not your imagination! I saw that as well, and it says a lot about the whole incident.
Thanks Shorty, glad it wasn’t just me.
I accept that it was a red 100%, however that does not stop me from disliking Creevys reactions.
Quote:malcoQuote:Dorset BoyQuote:BathMatt53Quote:Dorset Boy
One of the first things U6s and U7s are taught is that rugby is a game of evasion.....
If that were really the case then players like Billy V wouldn't exist!
It is the case, but contact comes later, and then you get the big guys enjoying steamrollering the small ones, and contact becomes a part of the game.
But at outset, they are taught it is a game of evasion.
Look, it is a lot like boxing from that point of view. The ideal is to hit and not get hit. The reality though is that collision in rugby is inevitable. The bigger and faster the players are the bigger the collisions will be. You can't manage collisions because collisions are not planned impact. Tackles are managed. Collisions aren't. You can't referee a collision the same way that you referee a tackle. A tackle is a technical process, a collision is an accident.
Wrong end of the telescope being used there malco
Players in the game have become bigger because of the emphasis on winning the collision. Get players running faster and we have mass + speed formula. The outcome is inevitable only when you place such a premium on winning the collision
Coaching and sanctions will change behaviour. The outcry over making seatbelts mandatory was massive. It wasn't long for use of seat belt to be the default behaviour.
In fact vehicle collision is probably a good analogy. If we had the mindset that vehicle collisions were inevitable there would be carnage on the roads. In stead driving is based on rules, training and beliefs designed to avoid collisions that impact around the head/neck area especially. Rugby must do the same otherwise the pathway is towards being an extreme, minority sport
The analogy with boxing is absurd. The focus for rugby is primarily securing and using the ball. The primary focus for boxing is to knock out your opponent
I think the new tackle laws and interpretations are going to change player body shapes again and probably for the good. The need to be more agile and mobile in sizing up tackles may lead to less muscle heavy bodies.
The need to get low and to able to move quickly to react to attackers is more suited to more flexible players than some of the muscle heavy players with less ability to flex quickly. I think you see the difficulty that larger players have in setting tackles when smaller players change direction rapidly.
This can only be good for the game which became a borefest of heavy collisions making short yards over the gainline rather than fast, dynamic play.
The need to get low and to able to move quickly to react to attackers is more suited to more flexible players than some of the muscle heavy players with less ability to flex quickly. I think you see the difficulty that larger players have in setting tackles when smaller players change direction rapidly.
This can only be good for the game which became a borefest of heavy collisions making short yards over the gainline rather than fast, dynamic play.
Agree NID
I also think that a further law change is required- to create a breakdown where more forwards must commit. That was achieved in the days of on the feet rucking- creating more space for players to run at.
More space= more running breaks, fewer physical breaks
Fewer physical breaks = less emphasis on power/fewer players needing to be of mammoth size
Reduction in mass/increase in mobility = reduced frequency of collisions and more running/passing.
PG
I also think that a further law change is required- to create a breakdown where more forwards must commit. That was achieved in the days of on the feet rucking- creating more space for players to run at.
More space= more running breaks, fewer physical breaks
Fewer physical breaks = less emphasis on power/fewer players needing to be of mammoth size
Reduction in mass/increase in mobility = reduced frequency of collisions and more running/passing.
PG
Gaz you need to understand the difference between technical contact and a collision.
I'm talking about accidental collisions, not technical contact. Anybody who has ever played rugby will know that accidental collisions are inevitable. The bigger the players, the bigger the impact.
I don't know how many times I have seen players from the same side colliding, leading to one or both suffering a concussion. Should players be red carded for that too?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:31:10:11:10 by malco.
I'm talking about accidental collisions, not technical contact. Anybody who has ever played rugby will know that accidental collisions are inevitable. The bigger the players, the bigger the impact.
I don't know how many times I have seen players from the same side colliding, leading to one or both suffering a concussion. Should players be red carded for that too?
Quote:gaz59Quote:malcoQuote:Dorset BoyQuote:BathMatt53Quote:Dorset Boy
One of the first things U6s and U7s are taught is that rugby is a game of evasion.....
If that were really the case then players like Billy V wouldn't exist!
It is the case, but contact comes later, and then you get the big guys enjoying steamrollering the small ones, and contact becomes a part of the game.
But at outset, they are taught it is a game of evasion.
Look, it is a lot like boxing from that point of view. The ideal is to hit and not get hit. The reality though is that collision in rugby is inevitable. The bigger and faster the players are the bigger the collisions will be. You can't manage collisions because collisions are not planned impact. Tackles are managed. Collisions aren't. You can't referee a collision the same way that you referee a tackle. A tackle is a technical process, a collision is an accident.
Wrong end of the telescope being used there malco
Players in the game have become bigger because of the emphasis on winning the collision. Get players running faster and we have mass + speed formula. The outcome is inevitable only when you place such a premium on winning the collision
Coaching and sanctions will change behaviour. The outcry over making seatbelts mandatory was massive. It wasn't long for use of seat belt to be the default behaviour.
In fact vehicle collision is probably a good analogy. If we had the mindset that vehicle collisions were inevitable there would be carnage on the roads. In stead driving is based on rules, training and beliefs designed to avoid collisions that impact around the head/neck area especially. Rugby must do the same otherwise the pathway is towards being an extreme, minority sport
The analogy with boxing is absurd. The focus for rugby is primarily securing and using the ball. The primary focus for boxing is to knock out your opponent
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021:03:31:10:11:10 by malco.
Most of the people posting on 'ere are a "certain age" or in my case more.
I first started playing with leather balls...............heavy when wet.
On pitches that were muddy and wet for half the season and hard and devoid of grass for the balance.
With modern conditions, which are excellent we should be looking to our players to be avoiding contact and to be looking for space and to keep the ball alive.
Many of the yellow/red cards would be eliminated if players looked to keep the ball live and to offload.
The game would also be so much more enjoyable to watch than the repeated pick and go one inch or the always potentially dangerous "clearing out".
I first started playing with leather balls...............heavy when wet.
On pitches that were muddy and wet for half the season and hard and devoid of grass for the balance.
With modern conditions, which are excellent we should be looking to our players to be avoiding contact and to be looking for space and to keep the ball alive.
Many of the yellow/red cards would be eliminated if players looked to keep the ball live and to offload.
The game would also be so much more enjoyable to watch than the repeated pick and go one inch or the always potentially dangerous "clearing out".
Quote:Bath Supporter Jack
The game would also be so much more enjoyable to watch than the repeated pick and go one inch or the always potentially dangerous "clearing out".
I mostly agree, but do we want to lose the shuddering hits when the little guy doesn't see the big hit coming and is dumped on the ground in a heap? I certainly wouldn't really be interested in watching a game if the physicality is removed and it's basically touch rugby.
Think any changes to the game that promotes space and mobility will bring in more small guys and that will add to the big hits! Bring back Zak Fe'aunati running over Steve Booth .... still one of the funniest things I have seen on a rugby pitch.
Quote:Never In Doubt
Think any changes to the game that promotes space and mobility will bring in more small guys and that will add to the big hits! Bring back Zak Fe'aunati running over Steve Booth .... still one of the funniest things I have seen on a rugby pitch.
I raise you Pennell trying (not very hard) to stop James Phillips!
[twitter.com]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Really interested to know why you're all up in arms over Creevy being a dummy runner and pulling up before he collides with your man, but you've not said a peep about Underhill being a dummy runner and clattering into our man Lovejoy.
Quote:Florida
Really interested to know why you're all up in arms over Creevy being a dummy runner and pulling up before he collides with your man, but you've not said a peep about Underhill being a dummy runner and clattering into our man Lovejoy.
Hard to tell why we've focussed on the Dunn incident so much.
Anyway I hope Lovejoy doesn't get suspended too long...
Wow Bath fans are just as embarrassing as their club.
You lot act so hard done by it’s actually hilarious.
Start looking at your own players/coaching staff before you start blaming everyone else.
It’s amazing to see how far your club has dropped and I can’t wait for it to carry on.
COYI!!! ☘️
You lot act so hard done by it’s actually hilarious.
Start looking at your own players/coaching staff before you start blaming everyone else.
It’s amazing to see how far your club has dropped and I can’t wait for it to carry on.
COYI!!! ☘️
Valuable contribution Tom! You are certainly a credit to your fine club... To be honest its probably time to dry those eyes and get over the fact that Watson and a few others joined about 10 years ago. Players move clubs, no need to get all bitter about it? Thankfully most of the LI supporters that I have spoken with are considerably more mature. All the very best for the rest of the season.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Tom1215
Wow Bath fans are just as embarrassing as their club.
You lot act so hard done by it’s actually hilarious.
Start looking at your own players/coaching staff before you start blaming everyone else.
It’s amazing to see how far your club has dropped and I can’t wait for it to carry on.
COYI!!! ☘️
I always thought the stuff about not swearing as it was a family board was over done, but it looks like 9 year olds do actually come on it.
Agreed BathMatt53
My mum used to say 'if you haven't something nice to say then say nothing at all'.
My mum used to say 'if you haven't something nice to say then say nothing at all'.
Quote:Tom1215
Wow Bath fans are just as embarrassing as their club.
You lot act so hard done by it’s actually hilarious.
Start looking at your own players/coaching staff before you start blaming everyone else.
It’s amazing to see how far your club has dropped and I can’t wait for it to carry on.
COYI!!! ☘️
It looks like moving to a football stadium has turned some London Irish players into footballers and some London Irish supporters into football fans.
Quote:Disunited
Agreed BathMatt53
My mum used to say 'if you haven't something nice to say then say nothing at all'.
My Mum used today exactly the same thing!
Quote:hasta
I mean, Irish have been in a football stadium for the past two decades.
QED.
Perhaps that's a significant contributory factor in explaining why many of their best players choose to join other clubs and why they have spent so much time in the lower reaches of the Premiership and in the Championship.
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