Saracens
Saracens v Exeter Chiefs Premiership Preview
Offload, Lozo, offload!
By saracensfan62
December 16 2025
And so we arrive at the crucial point in the Premiership season. The time when winning games becomes mandatory to stay in the hunt for a top 4 place come May. After a narrow Champions Cup defeat in Durban against the Sharks, I expect us to be eager to refocus domestically. Their recent run has shown mixed results: a big European win over Clermont, a narrow league loss to Bath, and some stiff Premiership Cup performances against Harlequins and Newcastle, 2 excellent victories there. We currently sit mid-table in 6th but can climb potentially up to 3rd with a strong showing here. We need to regain momentum ahead of the festive break and firm up top-4 ambitions. For Exeter, they enter after a Challenge Cup double-header with a heartbreaking drw against Racing92 and a big win against the SA side Cheetahs, and a close Premiership victory over Sale (with a stirring 2nd half comeback) the previous weekend. The Chiefs currently sit in 2nd in league standings and Saracens will be on the hunt for stealing the spoils to return to their favoured top 2/3 position.
Previous Premiership meetings have tended to favour Saracens, including wins in January 2024 and October 2024, although Exeter have been competitive, with that awful 65-10 win (lets not dwell on that) in 2023 and a narrow victory at Sandy Park earlier this year. Meetings between these 2 take polar formats – sometimes its an absolute try fest, othertimes its one of the stingiest games of the entire season. We shall have to wait and see which one this turns out to be.
Key Matchups
There are a few key areas to keep in mind for Saturday’s game:
1. Saracens’ Pack Structure vs Exeter’s Physical Forward Game
- Saracens rely heavily on structured forward platforms and precision at the breakdown, with nailed on forward pods often featuring the likes of Tizard, Mawi and other explosive ball carriers. Their pack will aim to dominate collisions and shape early territory.
- Exeter Chiefs have traditionally excelled with phased forward pressure, patience in attack, and dominating rucks. Expect a collision-heavy start where set pieces will be front-and-centre — tight five forwards on both sides will dictate momentum. As the old adage goes, forwards decide who wins, the backs by how much.
Key focus: Lineout execution and scrummaging discipline could definitely underpin territorial advantage by halftime.
2. Breakdown/Turnover Battle
- Exeter’s emphasis on contesting quick ruck ball and Saracens’ structured recycling will create a breakdown ‘chess match’. Saracens used to be a team who would give teams the ball, and then bully them in defence so much they coughed up penalties and then tries. Chiefs back rows like Ross Vintcent and Fisilau are aggressive at turnover contests; while Saracens’ defense is structured around limiting these opportunities and, moreso now than ever before, holding onto ball and working just a bit of magic with it.
Outcome hinge: Which side can retake clean ball and launch phases effectively will influence possession dynamics.
3. Half-Back & Playmaker Influence
- Control from the 9/10 channels will be essential. Quick rucking and service will enable both teams to gain momentum into opposition territory. The Van-Zyl/Farrell axis against Chapman/Skinner or Slade potentially will be crucial.
Tactical eyes: How each side deploys tactical kicking — particularly under wet or cold conditions — and whether they opt for clearance kicks or territorial pressure could swing territory statistics. With Farrell, Daly, Malins and potentially Lozowski in the side, its hard to see any outcome other than Sarries tactical kicking victory.
- If the weather is wet or windy: Set pieces and kicking games become more important. The team that wins lineout and scrummage battles will control phases and territory. Saracens have always thrived off first phase ball, so if we can get fast, clean ball off the top, Farrell can work his midfield magic and line breaks could be made for fun.
- Discipline: Penalties conceded in kicking range could be match-deciding — with the likes of aforementioned Slade and Daly who both have enormous boots and can nail penalties from 55m + out.
- Physical attrition: Both teams field strong forward units; the game may turn late if one side’s bench dominates through impact substitutions. From looking at previous Game benches, Sarries, whilst not possessing depth we used to have, do have more to give in the replacements than Exeter. Although we are short in replacement front rows at the minute with injury issues, so a fiery contest may arise there.
Key Player Spotlight Analysis
Saracens
Maro Itoje
Why he matters:
Itoje remains Saracens’ emotional and tactical heartbeat. His influence goes far beyond the stat sheet: lineout disruption, defensive reads, and leadership in tight moments.
What to watch:
- Lineout steals or forced overthrows
- Defensive pressure on Exeter’s maul formation
- Discipline — he will push referees to the limit
Match impact:
Against Exeter’s maul-heavy approach, Itoje’s ability to slow, sack or legally disrupt will be critical. If Saracens blunt Exeter’s driving maul early, they remove one of the Chiefs’ biggest weapons.
Ben Earl
Why he matters:
Earl is Saracens’ primary breakdown weapon and one of the Premiership’s most effective ball-carrying back-rowers.
Strengths:
- Quick acceleration off first receiver
- Strong jackal threat
- High tackle count with dominant hits
Match impact:
In wet December conditions, quick ruck ball is gold. Earl’s work at the breakdown could either speed Saracens’ attack or slow Exeter’s multi-phase game to a crawl.
Owen Farrell
Why he matters:
Farrell controls territory, tempo and decision-making under pressure.
What to watch:
- Tactical kicking to corners rather than contesting midfield
- Short kicking game behind Exeter’s defensive line
- Goal-kicking in difficult conditions
Match impact:
If the weather deteriorates, Farrell’s game management becomes even more valuable. Expect Saracens to play the right half of the pitch, building pressure rather than chasing flashy breaks.
Exeter Chiefs
Dafydd Jenkins
Why he matters:
Jenkins has become Exeter’s leader in the tight exchanges — aggressive, physical, and reliable in set piece.
Strengths:
- Lineout calling and defensive maul organisation
- High work-rate in contact
- Strong clear-out technique at ruck
Match impact:
Jenkins vs Itoje is a premium lock battle. Jenkins’ job is to secure clean ball and ensure Exeter’s maul isn’t disrupted before it can generate momentum.
Henry Slade
Why he matters:
Slade is Exeter’s chief organiser in the backline and their most composed decision-maker under pressure.
Strengths:
- Defensive communication
- Tactical kicking from midfield
- Subtle passing game in narrow channels
Match impact:
In poor weather, Slade’s value increases. Expect Exeter to use him as a second distributor, helping them exit safely and apply pressure through territory rather than width.
⚔️ Key Head-to-Head Matchups
1. Itoje vs Jenkins (Lock Battle)
Why it matters:
This matchup directly affects:
- Lineout success
- Maul effectiveness
- Defensive momentum
If Itoje disrupts Exeter’s lineout rhythm, Exeter may be forced to kick more than they’d like. If Jenkins wins this duel, Exeter’s rolling maul could dominate territory.
2. Ben Earl vs Greg Fisilau (Breakdown War)
Why it matters:
This is the tempo battle.
- Earl thrives on chaos and speed
- Exeter prefer control and patience
If Earl gets on top, Saracens can counter-attack off turnovers. If Exeter shut him down with clean clear-outs, they can grind Saracens down phase by phase.
3. Farrell vs Slade (Tactical Control)
Why it matters:
Neither side will want a loose, high-tempo game in December conditions.
- Farrell: territory, pressure, scoreboard
- Slade: structure, exits, composure
This duel will shape:
- Where the game is played
- How often teams attack vs kick
- Discipline pressure on defences
Final Key Player Takeaway
I would argue that this match is unlikely to be decided by flair — it could instead be decided by:
- Who controls the breakdown the most – who can get in the ref’s mind early on with legal and effective turnovers, thus impacting his view for the rest of the game.
- Who wins the lineout battle – Itoje and Jenkins battling it out will be fascinating, and with rainy and potentially windy weather forecasted, it’ll be interesting to see which team goes for more ambitious options or whether they both stick to traditional front, middle and back pods.
- Who manages territory better in winter conditions.
If Saracens’ leaders (Itoje, Earl, Farrell) impose themselves early, they’ll dictate tempo.
If Exeter’s pack (Jenkins, Fisilau) establish dominance and Slade controls territory, the Chiefs can grind out an away win.
As for my prediction on a starting lineup, well, they get increasingly varied each week. I’m going to give it my best shot, assuming most of our ‘big guns’ were rested last weekend vs Sharks to ensure we stand the greatest chance of winning this one:
- Rhys Carre
- Jamie George
- Marco Riccioni
- Maro Itoje
- Harry Wilson
- Juan Martin-Gonzalez
- Ben Earl
- Tom Willis
- Ivan van-Zyl
- Owen Farrell
- Noah Caluori
- Nick Tompkins
- Alex Lozowski
- Lucio Cinti
- Elliot Daly
- Theo Dan
- Alex O’Driscoll
- Marcus Street
- Hugh Tizard
- Olamide Sodeke
- Charlie Bracken
- Fergus Burke
- Max Malins
I could and probably am wrong about a few of these, but I would expect us to favour experience in this kind of must-win match. I do hope for an exciting and tense game at StoneX on Saturday, very excited to see what these 2 can produce. Nothing left to say apart from cmon you Sarries and see you all (with your big cheering voices I hope!) soon.
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Discussion started by TheSaracens.com , 16/12/2025 13:17
TheSaracens.com
16/12/2025 13:17
16/12/2025 13:17
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:28:07:58:52 by Darraghgirl.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:28:07:58:52 by Darraghgirl.
Hope you enjoy the preview all. Personally I'm very excited for this weekend's match up, see you all there!
No word on Maro’s fitness but at least he should be well rested. I’d expect Cinti at13 if Owen doesn’t play 12.
True, but I feel Cinti at 13 is a step backwards. The Tompkins/Lozowski axis served us so well for years and know exactly how to deal with the threat of Slade and Co. Exeter have a dangerous backline so I feel a more experienced sarries unit would handle them better. Plus Tobias Elliott I assume is still injured and now Roti picked up a knock so id expect Cinti to replace him on the wing
Cinti is a liability defensively at 13 .. always looks like he is on skates.
Feel we have to match up physically we go Maro , Tizaard , JMG , Earl and Willis as a back 5.
Feel we have to match up physically we go Maro , Tizaard , JMG , Earl and Willis as a back 5.
Long time lurker but finally felt i needed to post after seeing people refer to Cinti as a liability and step backwards!
A large part of our issue last year was having the least creative and dangerous centre partnership in the league. Tompkins and Loz are both solid but seriously lack pace and are not elite ball carriers or distributors.
If we go back to a 10, 12, 13 of Farrell, Tompkins and Loz for big games I see it as a serious regression and lack of ambition.
A large part of our issue last year was having the least creative and dangerous centre partnership in the league. Tompkins and Loz are both solid but seriously lack pace and are not elite ball carriers or distributors.
If we go back to a 10, 12, 13 of Farrell, Tompkins and Loz for big games I see it as a serious regression and lack of ambition.
Quote:Sarrov
Long time lurker but finally felt i needed to post after seeing people refer to Cinti as a liability and step backwards!
A large part of our issue last year was having the least creative and dangerous centre partnership in the league. Tompkins and Loz are both solid but seriously lack pace and are not elite ball carriers or distributors.
If we go back to a 10, 12, 13 of Farrell, Tompkins and Loz for big games I see it as a serious regression and lack of ambition.
+1 with the slight caveat that I think Tompkins still has quite a lot to offer. He is probably our most balanced centre currently in what he offers in defence and attack and he legitimately covers 12/13.
Cinti is a quality International level 13 and playing him on the wing is a waste of his abilities.
The flip side of Farrell/Tompkins/Lozo know how to deal with Chiefs is it's the same for them.
The weather will dictate how both teams play but an arm-wrestle with Chiefs sounds like exactly what they'd hope for.
Loz is a quality distributor too, it’s one of the best things about having him at 13. I agree though, Cinti at 13 please. We need some pace on the wings so if Malins continues there, Caluori on the other side.
If Loz is leaving I can see them favouring other combinations in the centres
Agree, Cinti is good enough to play centre for the Pumas - perhaps we need to give him more game time there to try and create a centre partnership with someone e.g. Tommo, learn how to work as a unit in attack and defence?
With no Maro, think JG starts for his experience and leadership.
Assume McFarland & Tiz start as they did in R6.
Assume McFarland & Tiz start as they did in R6.
Quote:Blanchefleur
No Maro out until January with a knee injury
That's a real shame but it's probably no bad thing that he has a bit of a break and hopefully he rehabs well and doesn't eat too many mince-pies.
In both leadership and playing terms we need to be prepare to not always have him in the biggest games.
Even more so now he’s 31. His body will not be able to hold up playing 38 matches season any more.
Saracens v Exeter Chiefs
Referee: Luke Pearce
ARs: Dan Jones & Calum Howard
TMO: David Rose
Hopefully we can keep our chat and discipline in check or we can look forward to penalties and being marched back 10.
Referee: Luke Pearce
ARs: Dan Jones & Calum Howard
TMO: David Rose
Hopefully we can keep our chat and discipline in check or we can look forward to penalties and being marched back 10.
Luke Pearce is a solid referee, to be honest i'd take anyone except Karl DICKson and carley
15 Elliot Daly
14 Noah Caluori
13 Lucio Cinti
12 Nick Tompkins
11 Max Malins
10 Owen Farrell
9 Ivan van Zyl (c)
1 Rhys Carre
2 Theo Dan
3 Marcus Street
4 Nick Isiekwe
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Ben Earl
8 Tom Willis
Replacements:
16 Jamie George
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Marco Riccioni
19 Harry Wilson
20 Andy Onyeama-Christie
21 Charlie Bracken
22 Fergus Burke
23 Rotimi Segun
14 Noah Caluori
13 Lucio Cinti
12 Nick Tompkins
11 Max Malins
10 Owen Farrell
9 Ivan van Zyl (c)
1 Rhys Carre
2 Theo Dan
3 Marcus Street
4 Nick Isiekwe
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Ben Earl
8 Tom Willis
Replacements:
16 Jamie George
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Marco Riccioni
19 Harry Wilson
20 Andy Onyeama-Christie
21 Charlie Bracken
22 Fergus Burke
23 Rotimi Segun
15 Olly Woodburn
14 Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
13 Henry Slade
12 Len Ikitau
11 Campbell Ridl
10 Harvey Skinner
9 Stephen Varney
1 Will Goodrick-Clarke
2 Jack Yeandle
3 Bachuki Tchumbadze
4 Dafydd Jenkins (c)
5 Andrea Zambonin
6 Tom Hooper
7 Ethan Roots
8 Greg Fisilau
Replacements:
16 Julian Heaven
17 Scott Sio
18 Jimmy Roots
19 Lewis Pearson
20 Kane James
21 Charlie Chapman
22 Will Haydon-Wood
23 Will Rigg
14 Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
13 Henry Slade
12 Len Ikitau
11 Campbell Ridl
10 Harvey Skinner
9 Stephen Varney
1 Will Goodrick-Clarke
2 Jack Yeandle
3 Bachuki Tchumbadze
4 Dafydd Jenkins (c)
5 Andrea Zambonin
6 Tom Hooper
7 Ethan Roots
8 Greg Fisilau
Replacements:
16 Julian Heaven
17 Scott Sio
18 Jimmy Roots
19 Lewis Pearson
20 Kane James
21 Charlie Chapman
22 Will Haydon-Wood
23 Will Rigg
And interesting to see Finn Keylock starting at FH again for Ampthill after his MotM performance last week at Donny. Alongside Jackson (14), Hall (11), Beaton (3), Isaacs (16), Adegbemile (20) and West (6).
That's a great looking team with lots to be excited about.
I'm really pleased to see more of Tompkins and Cinti and also the continuation of Caluori's development after we did more than simply kick to his wing last time. Good to see a 6/2 split too with a very strong bench.
The weather looks good with maybe a touch of rain before the game.
With that selection I'd hope we keep some of the ball and play flat to the line as well as using our usual kicking game.
Chiefs look strong too and the addition of Varney and Ikitau is a huge improvement over previous options. If they keep ball in hand our midfield will get a stern test. Woodburn at FullBack is interesting. He's great running onto kicks but I'm not sure how he is fielding them when another player is running at him. I'm unfamiliar with Ridl.
Interested to see how Rigg does from the bench as he's a player I've really liked on the limited occasions I've seen him.
At home this feels like it should be a win and hopefully denying them more than a LBP at most to try and keep them honest in the Top4.
I'm really pleased to see more of Tompkins and Cinti and also the continuation of Caluori's development after we did more than simply kick to his wing last time. Good to see a 6/2 split too with a very strong bench.
The weather looks good with maybe a touch of rain before the game.
With that selection I'd hope we keep some of the ball and play flat to the line as well as using our usual kicking game.
Chiefs look strong too and the addition of Varney and Ikitau is a huge improvement over previous options. If they keep ball in hand our midfield will get a stern test. Woodburn at FullBack is interesting. He's great running onto kicks but I'm not sure how he is fielding them when another player is running at him. I'm unfamiliar with Ridl.
Interested to see how Rigg does from the bench as he's a player I've really liked on the limited occasions I've seen him.
At home this feels like it should be a win and hopefully denying them more than a LBP at most to try and keep them honest in the Top4.
Ridl is England U20 I believe. Not sure what’s happened to Brown-Bampoe or Hodge?
PH the bench is 5-3, not 6-2 which I suspect is what you meant to be pleased with!
PH the bench is 5-3, not 6-2 which I suspect is what you meant to be pleased with!
The Bard,
PBB had an ankle injury end of November, Hodge minor knee injury a couple of weeks ago.
PBB had an ankle injury end of November, Hodge minor knee injury a couple of weeks ago.
Quote:The Bard
PH the bench is 5-3, not 6-2 which I suspect is what you meant to be pleased with!
It is. Thank you for the correction.
❌ Lucio Cinti has been ruled out.
⬆️ Olly Hartley starts at 12.
➡️ Nick Tompkins moves to 13.
⬆️ Olly Hartley starts at 12.
➡️ Nick Tompkins moves to 13.
Absolutely dreadful last 20 minutes. Without Maro to carry them Isiekwe and Tizzard showing their usual cloaks of invisibility.
Also can we stop kicking on 1st possession ...so negative when a man up.
Also can we stop kicking on 1st possession ...so negative when a man up.
What on earth has Van Zyl got over the coaches
Him not being able to get to the rucks at the end cost us quick ball so many times
Him not being able to get to the rucks at the end cost us quick ball so many times
IVZ being picked week in week out is a major faux pas.
Farrell was dreadful.
Dont get me started on 4 and 5 they are stealing a living week in week out when Maro isnt there.
Farrell was dreadful.
Dont get me started on 4 and 5 they are stealing a living week in week out when Maro isnt there.
To all the happy clapper #inmarkwetrust lovers…
Wake up and smell the coffee
Wake up and smell the coffee
To everyone who watched on TV: Why were a dominant front row, Noah, JMG and Willis subbed off? Were they injured? What was the explanation?
Equally why were Burke and Charlie left on the bench whilst Farrell and IVZ were rubbish on the field?
Or is that all part of the “learning” experience?
Equally why were Burke and Charlie left on the bench whilst Farrell and IVZ were rubbish on the field?
Or is that all part of the “learning” experience?
Quote:#wolfpack1
To everyone who watched on TV: Why were a dominant front row, Noah, JMG and Willis subbed off? Were they injured? What was the explanation?
Equally why were Burke and Charlie left on the bench whilst Farrell and IVZ were rubbish on the field?
Or is that all part of the “learning” experience?
No clue from the TV, seemed just like planned subs
Malins still looks slow but clearly has avery good skillset.
Resigning Daly , Tompkins etc just feels like rinse and repeat.
If we resign Isiekwe and Macfarland I may lose it
Resigning Daly , Tompkins etc just feels like rinse and repeat.
If we resign Isiekwe and Macfarland I may lose it
Quote:4 line outs lost, 2 from each hookerSarriebone
How many lineouts did we lose, again?
Absolutely no go forward once Willis went off yet again, Wilson had a real shocker as his replacement
Malins has lost any sort of pace he used to have, absolutely skinned by slade at the end there
IVZ was on one leg most of the second half, criminal to keep him on.
As well with Burke, he must be off at the end of the season. Why else would they not put him on?
We are way too easy to defend against and our 13 channel is so leaky in defence.
One positive of today is that last season we woulda rolled over and got humped. So that’s one thing I guess
As well with Burke, he must be off at the end of the season. Why else would they not put him on?
We are way too easy to defend against and our 13 channel is so leaky in defence.
One positive of today is that last season we woulda rolled over and got humped. So that’s one thing I guess
Imagine being Bracken and Burke sat watching that dross and not getting on?
I was in favour of Faz coming back as I assumed he would be in and around the squad for experience, slot in at 12 for a second distributor. How naive was I.
The loss today sits squarely on the shoulders of the coaching team.
I was in favour of Faz coming back as I assumed he would be in and around the squad for experience, slot in at 12 for a second distributor. How naive was I.
The loss today sits squarely on the shoulders of the coaching team.
Imagine being Bracken and Burke sat watching that dross and not getting on?
I was in favour of Faz coming back as I assumed he would be in and around the squad for experience, slot in at 12 for a second distributor. How naive was I.
The loss today sits squarely on the shoulders of the coaching team.
I was in favour of Faz coming back as I assumed he would be in and around the squad for experience, slot in at 12 for a second distributor. How naive was I.
The loss today sits squarely on the shoulders of the coaching team.
Quote:Sarrov
Imagine being Bracken and Burke sat watching that dross and not getting on?
I was in favour of Faz coming back as I assumed he would be in and around the squad for experience, slot in at 12 for a second distributor. How naive was I.
The loss today sits squarely on the shoulders of the coaching team.
Agree.
I think it might be time for a change I’m afraid
Quote:Sarrov
Imagine being Bracken and Burke sat watching that dross and not getting on?
I was in favour of Faz coming back as I assumed he would be in and around the squad for experience, slot in at 12 for a second distributor. How naive was I.
The loss today sits squarely on the shoulders of the coaching team.
Absolutely correct. Literally spot on.
I’m afraid I had zero confidence from the start that the coaches wouldn’t pick their mate. But I’m not a coach so couldn’t possibly criticise.
Hate being right…again
Time for change
Really struggling with the coaches decisions today. If Burke was kicking like that I’d be the first to point it out. IVZ and Faz could barely run toward the end there, it is absurd to keep them on while taking our best players off.
What exactly do we need to do to get the best out of this squad littered with internationals because it just isn’t happening right now.
What exactly do we need to do to get the best out of this squad littered with internationals because it just isn’t happening right now.
Quote:TommyKentish
Really struggling with the coaches decisions today. If Burke was kicking like that I’d be the first to point it out. IVZ and Faz could barely run toward the end there, it is absurd to keep them on while taking our best players off.
What exactly do we need to do to get the best out of this squad littered with internationals because it just isn’t happening right now.
We need new coaches that’s what.
But I’m sure I’ll be hung drawn and quartered for saying that coz we were good once
We seem to be a team where it is impossible to play your way in to or out of the 15. Last week Bracken, Burke, Hartley and Hall were excellent against a team of Sprinkgboks. Only Hartley got a run out and that was due to injury.
Tompkins , IVZ , Farrel and Malins may be the slowest players across 9-12 in modern rugby... its like we are stuck in 1983
Quote:JK12
Tompkins , IVZ , Farrel and Malins may be the slowest players across 9-12 in modern rugby... its like we are stuck in 1983
Malins looks slower than Alex Goode. Maybe even Andy Goode!
Quote:Stonexjim
Tell me how we’ve improved in the last 36 months then?
Charlie Bracken has got some great experience by sitting on the bench behind a consistently underperforming 9. Also we’ve transitioned back to Farrell at 10 which looks like a successful long term solution.
Quote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TommyKentish
Really struggling with the coaches decisions today. If Burke was kicking like that I’d be the first to point it out. IVZ and Faz could barely run toward the end there, it is absurd to keep them on while taking our best players off.
What exactly do we need to do to get the best out of this squad littered with internationals because it just isn’t happening right now.
We need new coaches that’s what.
But I’m sure I’ll be hung drawn and quartered for saying that coz we were good once
People that are stupid will get called stupid or ignored. People that have a measured view tend to get more traction and engagement.
HTH
There’s one on the hook.
Tell me how we’ve improved in the last 36 months then?
On the hook - really?
30 months ago, Saracens won the Premiership final.
The loss of Phil Morrow starting to take its toll
Englands improvement has been significant since he’s joined
Englands improvement has been significant since he’s joined
30 months feels like about 10 years tbh.
Resigning George , Daly , Tompkins and Farrell feels like a reluctance to bring in new outside talent.
Resigning George , Daly , Tompkins and Farrell feels like a reluctance to bring in new outside talent.
Quote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TommyKentish
Really struggling with the coaches decisions today. If Burke was kicking like that I’d be the first to point it out. IVZ and Faz could barely run toward the end there, it is absurd to keep them on while taking our best players off.
What exactly do we need to do to get the best out of this squad littered with internationals because it just isn’t happening right now.
We need new coaches that’s what.
But I’m sure I’ll be hung drawn and quartered for saying that coz we were good once
People that are stupid will get called stupid or ignored. People that have a measured view tend to get more traction and engagement.
HTH
There’s one on the hook.
Tell me how we’ve improved in the last 36 months then?
On the hook - really?
30 months ago, Saracens won the Premiership final.
Absolutely correct.
This was when the “transition” began.
How have we improved in the last 30 months then?
Or was that your “gotcha” moment?
Quote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TommyKentish
Really struggling with the coaches decisions today. If Burke was kicking like that I’d be the first to point it out. IVZ and Faz could barely run toward the end there, it is absurd to keep them on while taking our best players off.
What exactly do we need to do to get the best out of this squad littered with internationals because it just isn’t happening right now.
We need new coaches that’s what.
But I’m sure I’ll be hung drawn and quartered for saying that coz we were good once
People that are stupid will get called stupid or ignored. People that have a measured view tend to get more traction and engagement.
HTH
There’s one on the hook.
Tell me how we’ve improved in the last 36 months then?
On the hook - really?
30 months ago, Saracens won the Premiership final.
Absolutely correct.
This was when the “transition” began.
How have we improved in the last 30 months then?
Or was that your “gotcha” moment?
You brought up 36 months, not me. Gotchas are Noel Edmonds and people who think 'on the hook' is a smart way to start a good faith exchange.
I’m happy with the signing of George purely on the basis that he can hit a line out. Less happy after today’s game.
I said I was happy when Farrell signed if Burke still played, alas this is not the case.
We will get one more year out of Faz, then what? Johnstone can’t be much good otherwise we would put him on the bench to watch the starting 10.
I said I was happy when Farrell signed if Burke still played, alas this is not the case.
We will get one more year out of Faz, then what? Johnstone can’t be much good otherwise we would put him on the bench to watch the starting 10.
As ive said before our recruitment has been abject. So many similar players and one game changer in Willis despite spending up to the cap.
My over-riding feeling is simply of sadness to be honest.
Whilst the Farrell/McCall axis is in charge this is where we are headed.
It really is that simple and we've likely got another season of Farrell before he moves into coaching.
It would be a crying shame if two of the Men so influential in Saracens success were also so complicit in the clubs deterioration.
Good luck to him wherever Burke ends up. He's a quality player and deserves better than being in the shadow of yesterday's man.
Well done to Chiefs. I thought we got pretty lucky with some calls and whilst we were dominant for significant periods they hung in there and finished strongly.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:20:18:26:47 by PaulHerox.
Whilst the Farrell/McCall axis is in charge this is where we are headed.
It really is that simple and we've likely got another season of Farrell before he moves into coaching.
It would be a crying shame if two of the Men so influential in Saracens success were also so complicit in the clubs deterioration.
Good luck to him wherever Burke ends up. He's a quality player and deserves better than being in the shadow of yesterday's man.
Well done to Chiefs. I thought we got pretty lucky with some calls and whilst we were dominant for significant periods they hung in there and finished strongly.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:20:18:26:47 by PaulHerox.
That’s what genuinely annoys me. I think we’re actually spending more than Bath and look at the difference of performance. At least if we we properly transforming the squad, spending less and bringing through younger players a bit quicker then I’d have a bit more understanding, we’re like Bath of yester year, not even close to the sum of our parts.
Quote:TommyKentish
That’s what genuinely annoys me. I think we’re actually spending more than Bath and look at the difference of performance. At least if we we properly transforming the squad, spending less and bringing through younger players a bit quicker then I’d have a bit more understanding, we’re like Bath of yester year, not even close to the sum of our parts.
This is where my anger comes from our 4-7 today are highly paid yet mainly passive. Aside from Willis and Maro no one is really earning their salary 1-8 .
Our backs are just average yet we fight to resign the same players...just move on from 34 yr olds regardless of how long they've been here...
That was a game we should have won but Farrell had a bad day with the boot (only kicking 2 out of 5). There were some areas that we shaded and we played more attractive rugby than Exeter but I think that Slade and Ikitau got the better of Hartley and Tomkins.
Other areas to worry about include lineout throwing where both Theo and Jamie missed the jumpers a couple of times each. Our substitution policy seemed a bit crazy as IVZ was crocked with 20 to go but we kept him on, yet we took off Noah and some of the forwards when they were still firing well. I am most worried about Malins as he is not great in the tackle, a bit hesitant in the air and as Slade brutally showed he is not that fast anymore.
We are definitely just a mid table team this year and we will really have to pick our ideas up if we want to squeeze into the top 4 by season end. Two big away games coming up and whilst we can beat Gloucester I am not that confident as we often perform below par in the first game after Christmas.
Other areas to worry about include lineout throwing where both Theo and Jamie missed the jumpers a couple of times each. Our substitution policy seemed a bit crazy as IVZ was crocked with 20 to go but we kept him on, yet we took off Noah and some of the forwards when they were still firing well. I am most worried about Malins as he is not great in the tackle, a bit hesitant in the air and as Slade brutally showed he is not that fast anymore.
We are definitely just a mid table team this year and we will really have to pick our ideas up if we want to squeeze into the top 4 by season end. Two big away games coming up and whilst we can beat Gloucester I am not that confident as we often perform below par in the first game after Christmas.
Quote:TommyKentish
That’s what genuinely annoys me. I think we’re actually spending more than Bath and look at the difference of performance. At least if we we properly transforming the squad, spending less and bringing through younger players a bit quicker then I’d have a bit more understanding, we’re like Bath of yester year, not even close to the sum of our parts.
The team did look jaded. It was significant that they flagged so badly in the last 15 minutes. That might be Durban catching up with them?
Farrell had an absolute stinker though, and I say that as one of his biggest fans. He should have been substituted at 60 minutes. Ditto IvZ (who I am not a huge fan of).
We toook off our two go forward players in Tom and Theo, we then lose the game. Same taking Noah off when he was our most effective strike weapon. No control of the game from IVZ and Faz. We won our 3 prem games earlier in the season with Ferg at 10 - Faz offered nothing in attack today - fine to sign Faz as a bench player who can come on in last 20 and give you that control to get us over the line, which is what we missed last season. Maxi had one of his better games for us and Tiz was hitting people hard. Olly did a lot of carrying into traffic.
Pls pls play Charlie, Ferg, Olly and Spink at Glos, we have nothing to lose - by all means load bench with the old guard.
Chiefs were good value for their win, they must be laughing their @#$%& off - what a difference from their last 2 seasons. Well played.
Pls pls play Charlie, Ferg, Olly and Spink at Glos, we have nothing to lose - by all means load bench with the old guard.
Chiefs were good value for their win, they must be laughing their @#$%& off - what a difference from their last 2 seasons. Well played.
Quote:Stumpy7780
We will get one more year out of Faz, then what?
We start the rebuild again but with Farrell as a coach.
If Farrell really cares about Saracens and both the club and his own legacy (and I genuinely believe he does) he'd look at todays performance and know he's done as a starting player.
In previous games he's had one or two moments of class, a miss pass here and great kick there and people have been glossing over the increased limitations of his game specifically regarding contact on both sides of the ball.
I feel for Dai Flanagan. Like Sorrell he's been told to evolve the attack and is saying all the right things but we're playing with a 10 whose instinct when a man up is to kick the ball away and a DoR who see's him as the future of the club.
Willis was as usual immense. The run where he took a little pirouette in open field as if to plan his best route of attack was priceless. A very fleeting moment of levity in an overall disappointing performance.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:20:18:34:54 by PaulHerox.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:20:18:34:54 by PaulHerox.
I hate losing to Exeter especially after they put in about a dozen cheap shots. I might just call them the Exeter CHEAPS from now on.
Agree in part with the Faz comments, he obviously doesnt captain as part of transition but with no Willis next year we need to find a FH that can make some gaps. I dont think Fwrgus is yhat guy at the moment.
Did I say, I hate losing to Exeter! Slades whinging to the ref today was embarassing
Agree in part with the Faz comments, he obviously doesnt captain as part of transition but with no Willis next year we need to find a FH that can make some gaps. I dont think Fwrgus is yhat guy at the moment.
Did I say, I hate losing to Exeter! Slades whinging to the ref today was embarassing
Quote:TogaQuote:TommyKentish
That’s what genuinely annoys me. I think we’re actually spending more than Bath and look at the difference of performance. At least if we we properly transforming the squad, spending less and bringing through younger players a bit quicker then I’d have a bit more understanding, we’re like Bath of yester year, not even close to the sum of our parts.
The team did look jaded. It was significant that they flagged so badly in the last 15 minutes. That might be Durban catching up with them?
Farrell had an absolute stinker though, and I say that as one of his biggest fans. He should have been substituted at 60 minutes. Ditto IvZ (who I am not a huge fan of).
Durban could be a factor without a doubt but it didn’t seem to affect Willis or Dan. Tizard made the most tackles as well. Hartley and Tompkins looked like strangers which didn’t help matters. Absolutely agree on both half backs, ridiculous not to bring Bracken and Burke on.
Quote:Stonexjim
So that’s still nothing you can point to of improvement in the last 30 months then?
Careful Stonexjim, unless you picked dog-poo off the park and have a friendship bracelet made by Owen Farrell you probably aren't a "proper" supporter and shouldn't be questioning our betters
Quote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TommyKentish
Really struggling with the coaches decisions today. If Burke was kicking like that I’d be the first to point it out. IVZ and Faz could barely run toward the end there, it is absurd to keep them on while taking our best players off.
What exactly do we need to do to get the best out of this squad littered with internationals because it just isn’t happening right now.
We need new coaches that’s what.
But I’m sure I’ll be hung drawn and quartered for saying that coz we were good once
People that are stupid will get called stupid or ignored. People that have a measured view tend to get more traction and engagement.
HTH
There’s one on the hook.
Tell me how we’ve improved in the last 36 months then?
On the hook - really?
30 months ago, Saracens won the Premiership final.
Absolutely correct.
This was when the “transition” began.
How have we improved in the last 30 months then?
Or was that your “gotcha” moment?
You brought up 36 months, not me. Gotchas are Noel Edmonds and people who think 'on the hook' is a smart way to start a good faith exchange.
Bahahahahah. So that’s nothing then? 🤣
Just so I'm not too cruel to you, are you 13 years old?
36.
So that’s still nothing you can point to of improvement in the last 30 months then?
All the following are improved and/or new to the squad in the last 30 months. It's not an exhaustive list or in any particular order.
Tobias Elliott
Angus Hall
Noah Caluori
Theo Dan
Charlie Bracken
Jack Bracken
Brandon Jackson
Ben Earl
Maro Itoji
Juan Martín González
Olemide Sodeke
Charlie West
Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall insisted Exeter’s calmness under pressure was instructive for his side.
“When a couple of things went against us, we didn’t react in the way that we have been reacting the whole season,” McCall said.
“We had a half-decent lead a couple of times and it felt like they were able to come back far too easily.
“Exeter defended brilliantly and fair play to them – the fight they have shown away from home all season has been magnificent.
“Even at 24-13 down you see the belief in the group, there was no panic at all. We can learn from that because we didn’t handle the setbacks as well as we could have done.”
“When a couple of things went against us, we didn’t react in the way that we have been reacting the whole season,” McCall said.
“We had a half-decent lead a couple of times and it felt like they were able to come back far too easily.
“Exeter defended brilliantly and fair play to them – the fight they have shown away from home all season has been magnificent.
“Even at 24-13 down you see the belief in the group, there was no panic at all. We can learn from that because we didn’t handle the setbacks as well as we could have done.”
Quote:siNBin
I hate losing to Exeter especially after they put in about a dozen cheap shots. I might just call them the Exeter CHEAPS from now on.
Agree in part with the Faz comments, he obviously doesnt captain as part of transition but with no Willis next year we need to find a FH that can make some gaps. I dont think Fwrgus is yhat guy at the moment.
Did I say, I hate losing to Exeter! Slades whinging to the ref today was embarassing
The shoulder shot to George's face was deliberate.
Quote:TogaQuote:siNBin
I hate losing to Exeter especially after they put in about a dozen cheap shots. I might just call them the Exeter CHEAPS from now on.
Agree in part with the Faz comments, he obviously doesnt captain as part of transition but with no Willis next year we need to find a FH that can make some gaps. I dont think Fwrgus is yhat guy at the moment.
Did I say, I hate losing to Exeter! Slades whinging to the ref today was embarassing
The shoulder shot to George's face was deliberate.
With a tucked arm, despite Sir saying his other arm was out so there was an attempt to wrap
Quote:Sarriebone
Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall insisted Exeter’s calmness under pressure was instructive for his side.
“When a couple of things went against us, we didn’t react in the way that we have been reacting the whole season,” McCall said.
“We had a half-decent lead a couple of times and it felt like they were able to come back far too easily.
“Exeter defended brilliantly and fair play to them – the fight they have shown away from home all season has been magnificent.
“Even at 24-13 down you see the belief in the group, there was no panic at all. We can learn from that because we didn’t handle the setbacks as well as we could have done.”
I know you never stop learning but we had about 15 internationals on the field today. Caluori is the youngest guy and while he made a few bad defensive reads he wasn’t exactly panicking. This shouldn't be an issue with the personnel we have.
Anyone feeling depressed from earlier should tune into Harlequins big game day at Spurs. They are getting dismembered and strung up by Bristol. They're going to ship over 60 at this rate.
Another team showing the level of the desperately poor Quins team that beat us comfortably.
Quote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TogaQuote:StonexjimQuote:TommyKentish
Really struggling with the coaches decisions today. If Burke was kicking like that I’d be the first to point it out. IVZ and Faz could barely run toward the end there, it is absurd to keep them on while taking our best players off.
What exactly do we need to do to get the best out of this squad littered with internationals because it just isn’t happening right now.
We need new coaches that’s what.
But I’m sure I’ll be hung drawn and quartered for saying that coz we were good once
People that are stupid will get called stupid or ignored. People that have a measured view tend to get more traction and engagement.
HTH
There’s one on the hook.
Tell me how we’ve improved in the last 36 months then?
On the hook - really?
30 months ago, Saracens won the Premiership final.
Absolutely correct.
This was when the “transition” began.
How have we improved in the last 30 months then?
Or was that your “gotcha” moment?
You brought up 36 months, not me. Gotchas are Noel Edmonds and people who think 'on the hook' is a smart way to start a good faith exchange.
Bahahahahah. So that’s nothing then? 🤣
Just so I'm not too cruel to you, are you 13 years old?
36.
So that’s still nothing you can point to of improvement in the last 30 months then?
All the following are improved and/or new to the squad in the last 30 months. It's not an exhaustive list or in any particular order.
Tobias Elliott
Angus Hall
Noah Caluori
Theo Dan
Charlie Bracken
Jack Bracken
Brandon Jackson
Ben Earl
Maro Itoji
Juan Martín González
Olemide Sodeke
Charlie West
Bahahahahah. Some of those in that list are utterly laughable that you think they’ve improved.
But it’s ok coz at least the main judgement of success (ie reaults) have improved.
Oh wait…
Quins basically turn into South Africa against us. Still, we need to be able to raise our game too.
Quote:Toga
Anyone feeling depressed from earlier should tune into Harlequins big game day at Spurs. They are getting dismembered and strung up by Bristol. They're going to ship over 60 at this rate.
“At least we’re not quins”
“You should be grateful and appreciative coz we were awful in Watford and Enfield”
What high expectations…
Quote:TommyKentishQuote:Sarriebone
Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall insisted Exeter’s calmness under pressure was instructive for his side.
“When a couple of things went against us, we didn’t react in the way that we have been reacting the whole season,” McCall said.
“We had a half-decent lead a couple of times and it felt like they were able to come back far too easily.
“Exeter defended brilliantly and fair play to them – the fight they have shown away from home all season has been magnificent.
“Even at 24-13 down you see the belief in the group, there was no panic at all. We can learn from that because we didn’t handle the setbacks as well as we could have done.”
I know you never stop learning but we had about 15 internationals on the field today. Caluori is the youngest guy and while he made a few bad defensive reads he wasn’t exactly panicking. This shouldn't be an issue with the personnel we have.
Quite.
And it wasn’t “belief” that gave us the ball for 5 mins at the end of the game with a complete inability to go forward or create space .
Did anyone ask him why he took off our decent front row and three best players (Noah, JMG and Tom) and left on our poor half backs?
Where is the accountability?
Quote:Sarriebone
Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall insisted Exeter’s calmness under pressure was instructive for his side.
“When a couple of things went against us, we didn’t react in the way that we have been reacting the whole season,” McCall said.
“We had a half-decent lead a couple of times and it felt like they were able to come back far too easily.
“Exeter defended brilliantly and fair play to them – the fight they have shown away from home all season has been magnificent.
“Even at 24-13 down you see the belief in the group, there was no panic at all. We can learn from that because we didn’t handle the setbacks as well as we could have done.”
“Didn’t react in the way we have all season”- mark, we were sixth before today mate…
“We will learn from this”- will tick that one off the bingo card
#wolfpack1 to be fair Willis looked knackered when he went off.
It's also not unusual to change the front row on 50-ish and to be fair I expected that bench to have a big impact.
I think why both Bracken and Burke were left on the bench was a legitimate question and one you'd expect a competent interviewer to ask and one as a supporter I'd be fascinated to know the answer to though.
It's also not unusual to change the front row on 50-ish and to be fair I expected that bench to have a big impact.
I think why both Bracken and Burke were left on the bench was a legitimate question and one you'd expect a competent interviewer to ask and one as a supporter I'd be fascinated to know the answer to though.
Quote:TommyKentish
Durban could be a factor without a doubt but it didn’t seem to affect Willis or Dan
We didn't look tired IMO.
Quote:PaulHerox
#wolfpack1 to be fair Willis looked knackered when he went off.
It's also not unusual to change the front row on 50-ish and to be fair I expected that bench to have a big impact.
I think why both Bracken and Burke were left on the bench was a legitimate question and one you'd expect a competent interviewer to ask and one as a supporter I'd be fascinated to know the answer to though.
I also expected the bench to have a better impact, but I’m not sure why — our bench hasn’t improved matters in about 5 years.
From where I sat, our best players were Willis, Noah and JMG. And our scrum was going well. And yet all 6 were substituted. If there were injuries - fine.
But the only player who looked injured was IVZ and he stayed on the whole game.
Maybe there was a reason for the subs, but I’d like McCall to explain. Because from the stands they looked like pre-determined substitutions and they didn’t work at all. Why were they made? And why wasn’t Charlie brought on for an injured scrum half?
We lost the last two premiership games we should have won, I dont accept the comments that we were poor in both games, our problem seems to be consitentcy. Agree about Farrell, continually playing him prevents Burke's develpment, he has all the characteristics we require of a Fly half in a faster game. Iseikwei was invisible for much of the game. Would play Wilson more often, he has shown power and go forward, not confined to a few minutes of the bench..
awaiting an annoucement that Tomo Williams is joining the club next season, giving the captaincy to Van Zyl is a unecessary burden on his shoulders.
You will be relieved to know that is the end of my rant
awaiting an annoucement that Tomo Williams is joining the club next season, giving the captaincy to Van Zyl is a unecessary burden on his shoulders.
You will be relieved to know that is the end of my rant
Quote:#wolfpack1
Maybe there was a reason for the subs, but I’d like McCall to explain. Because from the stands they looked like pre-determined substitutions and they didn’t work at all. Why were they made? And why wasn’t Charlie brought on for an injured scrum half?
I think they are pre-determined as you say.
JMG pretty much always goes off between 50-60 as he did today. Willis too normally so we can play Earl at 8.
We did briefly move Willis to lock last season and that worked really well but he gets through so much work it's probably not realistic expecting him to do more than 50 normally. We've already covered the front row.
In a way I feel we're questioning the wrong bit. It's not whether it was wrong to sub but why it didn't work.
I think most people looked at those team sheets and would have said we had the stronger bench but as you said it frequently seems to struggle to deliver.
Personally I had hoped this was an area having our senior players available would pay dividends in terms of composure and leadership. We lacked both. What's the solution though.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:20:20:01:25 by PaulHerox.
Backline going forward should be CB / FB / RS / NT/ SS / NC / ED
Faz on bench which we were told was to be his role.
Isiekwe wants moving on as im sick of his invisible act..today showed Martin if fit will be something we dont have i.e a physical ball carrying lock outside of Maro.
Faz on bench which we were told was to be his role.
Isiekwe wants moving on as im sick of his invisible act..today showed Martin if fit will be something we dont have i.e a physical ball carrying lock outside of Maro.
I could not understand what was going on today. Defence was obviously poor, lineout not great but we saw that in Durban. Front row replaced after 44 mins when they obviously werent tired or injured. A scrum half left on when obviously so injured he couldn’t kick and a good replacement on the bench. A great young winger subbed after 2 tries when he was going well replaced by nothing. A fly half who had a really bad game, and should have gone at half time. If the ref hadn’t been yellow card mad we’d have lost by more.
Only really good players today were Willis who we are losing , Calorie , maybe a couple of the starting pack and Mawi , then ??? We are locked on mid table and likely out of Europe, I fear the next 2 Europe matches will embarrassing. Give Bracken a run with Burke please and put Farrell and Van Zyl on the bench or at home.
Only really good players today were Willis who we are losing , Calorie , maybe a couple of the starting pack and Mawi , then ??? We are locked on mid table and likely out of Europe, I fear the next 2 Europe matches will embarrassing. Give Bracken a run with Burke please and put Farrell and Van Zyl on the bench or at home.
The most worrying bit of the game for me was the last 3-4 minutes. Despite ball retention we kept on going backwards, showed no imagination and no penetration either through an injection of pace or sheer brute force. we were so easy to defend.
We lack pace right through the team; I would pick Noah and Roti when fit as they both at least present a bit of threat and a point of difference.
We are unbalanced in the backrow at the moment. Earl, JMG and Christie are all natural 7s, we have no real 6. I would try Nick I there or keep him as bench cover; he doesn't do a job as lock for me.
When Owen came back I presumed he would be bench cover or play 12 outside Burke. I agree it is backward looking to play him regularly at 10. I wonder if Burke is heading north of the border and that is the reason he's not being picked. A puzzle otherwise.
Exeter were good value for their win. I thought their defence was excellent and we had no answer to their centres, the 12 in particular, but Slade was also classy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:20:20:26:29 by Eric Browett.
We lack pace right through the team; I would pick Noah and Roti when fit as they both at least present a bit of threat and a point of difference.
We are unbalanced in the backrow at the moment. Earl, JMG and Christie are all natural 7s, we have no real 6. I would try Nick I there or keep him as bench cover; he doesn't do a job as lock for me.
When Owen came back I presumed he would be bench cover or play 12 outside Burke. I agree it is backward looking to play him regularly at 10. I wonder if Burke is heading north of the border and that is the reason he's not being picked. A puzzle otherwise.
Exeter were good value for their win. I thought their defence was excellent and we had no answer to their centres, the 12 in particular, but Slade was also classy.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:20:20:26:29 by Eric Browett.
Quote:PaulHeroxQuote:#wolfpack1
Maybe there was a reason for the subs, but I’d like McCall to explain. Because from the stands they looked like pre-determined substitutions and they didn’t work at all. Why were they made? And why wasn’t Charlie brought on for an injured scrum half?
I think they are pre-determined as you say.
JMG pretty much always goes off between 50-60 as he did today. Willis too normally so we can play Earl at 8.
We did briefly move Willis to lock last season and that worked really well but he gets through so much work it's probably not realistic expecting him to do more than 50 normally. We've already covered the front row.
The front row is 100% pre determined.
There was nothing to suggest replacing the entire front row was needed or desirable. We hadn’t even had a scrum in the second half!
JMG and Willis are our two world class players (along with Maro). They are it. Why on earth are we taking them off in a game we absolutely must win against a decent Exeter outfit.
It is bonkers.
I know I don’t have access to the stats and the information and the metrics the coaches do. But if I was to bring off one of back row:
1) I’d resist the temptation, because AOC just isn’t as good as the starting 3;
2) If I couldn’t resist it would be Ben Earl because he increasingly plays poorly for us and better and better for England.
There was nothing to suggest any of the substitutions were necessary… and yet they were all made and they all weakened our team *and we lost from a winning position*
Quote:Eric Browett
We are unbalanced in the backrow at the moment. Earl, JMG and Christie are all natural 7s, we have no real 6.
Agree. Maybe if we're not going to start him at lock Wilson could start at 6.
The starting combination of JMG, Earl and Willis should be dynamite. They're all fantastic players.
I think part of it is you need players grafting so others can shine but if then you miss them shining.
I still feel if we played the game at greater tempo off-loading out of the tackle etc we would see more from them as a collective as that would suit their skills. As it is the flankers are spending a lot of time in defence hitting rucks and chasing after box-kicks.
Quote:Eric Browett
When Owen came back I presumed he would be bench cover or play 12 outside Burke. I agree it is backward looking to play him regularly at 10. I wonder if Burke is heading north of the border and that is the reason he's not being picked. A puzzle otherwise.
You could be right but why keep Bracken on the bench too. Is he off to Scotland as well!
When watching the warm up Ben Earl's body language indicated to me that he didn't want to be there. Not like him.
Why oh why wasn't Van Zyl substituted when he could barely walk - it's not like there wasn't an able replacement.
Definitely the sum of our parts is not what it should be.
Why oh why wasn't Van Zyl substituted when he could barely walk - it's not like there wasn't an able replacement.
Definitely the sum of our parts is not what it should be.
Can dirtybertie give any insight from the inside in why Van Zyl continues to play full 80 minutes in games?
It surely can’t be a leadership thing
It surely can’t be a leadership thing
Following a complaint, I have just spent half an hour of my life that I won't get back deleting a number of messages in this thread which were overly personal and unpleasant.
PLEASE GUYS feel free to express your opinions but keep it civil.
If this continues certain people will not be welcome on this board
Thank you
PLEASE GUYS feel free to express your opinions but keep it civil.
If this continues certain people will not be welcome on this board
Thank you
We should have sent the A team to Durban. We dodnt need to win it. If you get a SH game in the draw, you are playing zgainst loaded dice. The EC cup no longer has kudos. Rest the big guns and beat Exeter the week after. If thaf is unclear, i think we would have held the win if we hadnt flown 20k mikes in previous 10 days.
As author of this article, I think I have every right to comment on it again.
The comments that were made on this page were frankly appalling. I appreciate yesterday was a tough pill to swallow but that gives no excuse for the disgusting things that were posted including some personal comments. Constructive criticism is fine, but if you just fancy posting something nasty, please rethink it.
The comments that were made on this page were frankly appalling. I appreciate yesterday was a tough pill to swallow but that gives no excuse for the disgusting things that were posted including some personal comments. Constructive criticism is fine, but if you just fancy posting something nasty, please rethink it.
Quote:nicsue
When watching the warm up Ben Earl's body language indicated to me that he didn't want to be there. Not like him.
I didn't notice that myself but thought he put in lots of effort on the field during the game at least.
What I did notice was almost the first thing George did when he came on was get involved in some niggle and pushing a Chiefs players head down. This was before the tackle on him and is not how he normally behaves.
Having watched the game back it's so much worse than live.
How we managed the first yellow in particular is beyond baffling its infuriating.
Quote:saracensfan62
As author of this article, I think I have every right to comment on it again.
The comments that were made on this page were frankly appalling. I appreciate yesterday was a tough pill to swallow but that gives no excuse for the disgusting things that were posted including some personal comments. Constructive criticism is fine, but if you just fancy posting something nasty, please rethink it.
I agree 100% with you.
Playing and coaching staff read these forums and read social media some points are valid some are vile.
Quote:dirtybertieQuote:saracensfan62
As author of this article, I think I have every right to comment on it again.
The comments that were made on this page were frankly appalling. I appreciate yesterday was a tough pill to swallow but that gives no excuse for the disgusting things that were posted including some personal comments. Constructive criticism is fine, but if you just fancy posting something nasty, please rethink it.
I agree 100% with you.
Playing and coaching staff read these forums and read social media some points are valid some are vile.
100% in agreement with all of this!
The people throwing insults at Mark McCall, quite frankly, have extremely short memories. He has dedicated himself to this club for 15+ years and has shown time and time again that he can get the best out of this group. Just because we have had a poor start, doesn’t ment we can’t bounce back.
I think MM will come back stronger and the coaches will work it out. Exeter are a strong team and the few games I have seen them in they have staged massive comebacks to win. One I believe was at Sale, I tipped them to get to the Prem final.
Getting really tipsy yesterday made the game easier ro watch lol but I agree hopefully we get to see some more of the younger players get starts. I can understand why we are taking a slower approach with our talent coming through, it could have been the other way where we are moaning that we have no experience in the team at all and lose quite a few games.
Getting really tipsy yesterday made the game easier ro watch lol but I agree hopefully we get to see some more of the younger players get starts. I can understand why we are taking a slower approach with our talent coming through, it could have been the other way where we are moaning that we have no experience in the team at all and lose quite a few games.
Quote:jimfitz12Quote:dirtybertieQuote:saracensfan62
As author of this article, I think I have every right to comment on it again.
The comments that were made on this page were frankly appalling. I appreciate yesterday was a tough pill to swallow but that gives no excuse for the disgusting things that were posted including some personal comments. Constructive criticism is fine, but if you just fancy posting something nasty, please rethink it.
I agree 100% with you.
Playing and coaching staff read these forums and read social media some points are valid some are vile.
100% in agreement with all of this!
The people throwing insults at Mark McCall, quite frankly, have extremely short memories. He has dedicated himself to this club for 15+ years and has shown time and time again that he can get the best out of this group. Just because we have had a poor start, doesn’t ment we can’t bounce back.
We are lucky to have the most successful coach/DoR ever in English professional rugby and we should not forget this. However, he and his coaching team need to work this out whilst taking the fans with them - it would be useful for MM to talk to the Sarries faithful directly (not face to face, but perhaps with an honest video interview on the Sarries website, not in the Daily Telegraph or the like), give us an idea of plans for the team, where we are going, where he thinks we are and what we hope to achieve in a rough timescale - a state of the Sarries Nation, to borrow an Americanism. We get snippets here and there in the press, plus lots of rumour on this and other rugby sites. I know he is not the most loquacious of individuals, but I think it would be good for him to talk to us fans a bit more frequently. That way the team will hopefully take the majority of us with them - fans are bloody important and we can then buy into the next part of the club’s journey. Just a thought…
In answer to the comments below, For me, MM is a quiet guy and Sanderson used to be the public face of the club. Maybe we should hear more from Joe Shaw?
We are lucky to have the most successful coach/DoR ever in English professional rugby and we should not forget this. However, he and his coaching team need to work this out whilst taking the fans with them - it would be useful for MM to talk to the Sarries faithful directly (not face to face, but perhaps with an honest video interview on the Sarries website, not in the Daily Telegraph or the like), give us an idea of plans for the team, where we are going, where he thinks we are and what we hope to achieve in a rough timescale - a state of the Sarries Nation, to borrow an Americanism. We get snippets here and there in the press, plus lots of rumour on this and other rugby sites. I know he is not the most loquacious of individuals, but I think it would be good for him to talk to us fans a bit more frequently. That way the team will hopefully take the majority of us with them - fans are bloody important and we can then buy into the next part of the club’s journey. Just a thought…[/quote]
We are lucky to have the most successful coach/DoR ever in English professional rugby and we should not forget this. However, he and his coaching team need to work this out whilst taking the fans with them - it would be useful for MM to talk to the Sarries faithful directly (not face to face, but perhaps with an honest video interview on the Sarries website, not in the Daily Telegraph or the like), give us an idea of plans for the team, where we are going, where he thinks we are and what we hope to achieve in a rough timescale - a state of the Sarries Nation, to borrow an Americanism. We get snippets here and there in the press, plus lots of rumour on this and other rugby sites. I know he is not the most loquacious of individuals, but I think it would be good for him to talk to us fans a bit more frequently. That way the team will hopefully take the majority of us with them - fans are bloody important and we can then buy into the next part of the club’s journey. Just a thought…[/quote]
Agree re the above-
It would be useful to understand the thinking behind some of the decisions made on Saturday:
- why have we moved away from Fergus Burke at 10, despite him starting the season pretty well?
- why did we take off our three best players on Saturday (Willis, JMG, Noah)?
- why didn’t we take off a clearly struggling and also very clearly injured IVZ?
- why did we randomly sub a dominant front row at 44 mins?
Maybe there are good reasons for all of the above. We don’t have access to any of the data, stats, metrics etc that the coaches have. There are clearly many (very) strongly held opinions here which is fine and all views imo are legitimate and understandable …- but it would surely take an Orwellian cult of personality approach to think the substitutions (and lack of substitutions) worked. It would, I think, be beneficial to all if we could be told the thinking behind them.
It would be useful to understand the thinking behind some of the decisions made on Saturday:
- why have we moved away from Fergus Burke at 10, despite him starting the season pretty well?
- why did we take off our three best players on Saturday (Willis, JMG, Noah)?
- why didn’t we take off a clearly struggling and also very clearly injured IVZ?
- why did we randomly sub a dominant front row at 44 mins?
Maybe there are good reasons for all of the above. We don’t have access to any of the data, stats, metrics etc that the coaches have. There are clearly many (very) strongly held opinions here which is fine and all views imo are legitimate and understandable …- but it would surely take an Orwellian cult of personality approach to think the substitutions (and lack of substitutions) worked. It would, I think, be beneficial to all if we could be told the thinking behind them.
Well Willis was getting constant treatment,surprise was he stayed on so long. It looked like we had picked an arguably stronger front row for the bench so no surprise they came on when they did.
Taking off JMG was questionable, unless he’d had a knock as he had a couple of weeks off.
We may have decided Roti would offer a bit more defensively than Noah, but that’s a marginal call. Noah was taken off at a similar time against Clermont.
But the lack of half back subs was the one I simply don’t understand. With Jamie on the field we have an England captain so it being a leadership issue is not a great argument
Taking off JMG was questionable, unless he’d had a knock as he had a couple of weeks off.
We may have decided Roti would offer a bit more defensively than Noah, but that’s a marginal call. Noah was taken off at a similar time against Clermont.
But the lack of half back subs was the one I simply don’t understand. With Jamie on the field we have an England captain so it being a leadership issue is not a great argument
Stangelove that's a great idea for either McCall or as MidlandSarrie says Shaw.
My guess is coaches probably don't want to be tied down to a "flightpath" though.
+1
For me all bar the lack of 9/10 subs are understandable and in many cases have a precedent.
#wolfpack1 has a point re that precedent, ie is it too prescriptive taking off your front row on 50-ish, JMG and Willis at similar times too? and yet I feel those calls in the Chiefs game are being judged on outcome above all.
Understandable to a degree less of a concern to me than why in addition to the lack of play-maker swaps we seemed to have a total lack of leadership given the personnel on the field.
Shorn of the carrying of Willis and Dan and with Caluori subbed we seemed to have no idea of how to breakdown a committed but not especially challenged defence.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:23:02:19:13 by PaulHerox.
My guess is coaches probably don't want to be tied down to a "flightpath" though.
Quote:The Bard
Well Willis was getting constant treatment,surprise was he stayed on so long. It looked like we had picked an arguably stronger front row for the bench so no surprise they came on when they did.
Taking off JMG was questionable, unless he’d had a knock as he had a couple of weeks off.
We may have decided Roti would offer a bit more defensively than Noah, but that’s a marginal call. Noah was taken off at a similar time against Clermont.
But the lack of half back subs was the one I simply don’t understand. With Jamie on the field we have an England captain so it being a leadership issue is not a great argument
+1
For me all bar the lack of 9/10 subs are understandable and in many cases have a precedent.
#wolfpack1 has a point re that precedent, ie is it too prescriptive taking off your front row on 50-ish, JMG and Willis at similar times too? and yet I feel those calls in the Chiefs game are being judged on outcome above all.
Understandable to a degree less of a concern to me than why in addition to the lack of play-maker swaps we seemed to have a total lack of leadership given the personnel on the field.
Shorn of the carrying of Willis and Dan and with Caluori subbed we seemed to have no idea of how to breakdown a committed but not especially challenged defence.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:12:23:02:19:13 by PaulHerox.
It is possible there was an injury to Tom (although I didn’t see one, and according to someone on here who watched on TV, they didn’t say it was an injury sub on the commentary). If there was an injury to him or JMG - that’s fine, but that’s the sort of thing I think they should explain because otherwise taking off our best players in a must win game is a bit baffling.
It had a ring of Northampton away last year. We were very very good for 50 mins in that game. And then our front row were all replaced at broadly the same time, Tom Willis (best player on the pitch again) was taken off and it all went wrong. Luke Pearces terrible refereeing at the end of that game covered over some very dubious tactical choices from our side that day.
I think everyone would benefit from more transparency on these matters. As someone above said, it would help take the fans with you.
It would also make the sport more interesting more generally. If a football manager made the tactical decisions our coaches did on Saturday they’d be asked about it by Sky after the game, by the press in the presser the day after, before the next game etc. That sort of scrutiny doesn’t happen in rugby which is a shame - supporters of the sport want to know the answers to these questions. In the silence we all end up just calling each other names instead.
It had a ring of Northampton away last year. We were very very good for 50 mins in that game. And then our front row were all replaced at broadly the same time, Tom Willis (best player on the pitch again) was taken off and it all went wrong. Luke Pearces terrible refereeing at the end of that game covered over some very dubious tactical choices from our side that day.
I think everyone would benefit from more transparency on these matters. As someone above said, it would help take the fans with you.
It would also make the sport more interesting more generally. If a football manager made the tactical decisions our coaches did on Saturday they’d be asked about it by Sky after the game, by the press in the presser the day after, before the next game etc. That sort of scrutiny doesn’t happen in rugby which is a shame - supporters of the sport want to know the answers to these questions. In the silence we all end up just calling each other names instead.
Quote:#wolfpack1
It is possible there was an injury to Tom (although I didn’t see one, and according to someone on here who watched on TV, they didn’t say it was an injury sub on the commentary). If there was an injury to him or JMG - that’s fine, but that’s the sort of thing I think they should explain because otherwise taking off our best players in a must win game is a bit baffling.
It had a ring of Northampton away last year. We were very very good for 50 mins in that game. And then our front row were all replaced at broadly the same time, Tom Willis (best player on the pitch again) was taken off and it all went wrong. Luke Pearces terrible refereeing at the end of that game covered over some very dubious tactical choices from our side that day.
I think everyone would benefit from more transparency on these matters. As someone above said, it would help take the fans with you.
It would also make the sport more interesting more generally. If a football manager made the tactical decisions our coaches did on Saturday they’d be asked about it by Sky after the game, by the press in the presser the day after, before the next game etc. That sort of scrutiny doesn’t happen in rugby which is a shame - supporters of the sport want to know the answers to these questions. In the silence we all end up just calling each other names instead.
+1
Quote:#wolfpack1
It is possible there was an injury to Tom (although I didn’t see one, and according to someone on here who watched on TV, they didn’t say it was an injury sub on the commentary). If there was an injury to him or JMG - that’s fine, but that’s the sort of thing I think they should explain because otherwise taking off our best players in a must win game is a bit baffling.
It had a ring of Northampton away last year. We were very very good for 50 mins in that game. And then our front row were all replaced at broadly the same time, Tom Willis (best player on the pitch again) was taken off and it all went wrong. Luke Pearces terrible refereeing at the end of that game covered over some very dubious tactical choices from our side that day.
I think everyone would benefit from more transparency on these matters. As someone above said, it would help take the fans with you.
It would also make the sport more interesting more generally. If a football manager made the tactical decisions our coaches did on Saturday they’d be asked about it by Sky after the game, by the press in the presser the day after, before the next game etc. That sort of scrutiny doesn’t happen in rugby which is a shame - supporters of the sport want to know the answers to these questions. In the silence we all end up just calling each other names instead.
Agree,
I thought with the rebrand and new marketing team we would be seeing more from inside the club
The videos produced in pre season were very good, but have now seemingly stopped - any reason why?
There’s no way we are going to get a running commentary on every decision made on selection, I’m not aware of any other team sport where it happens anyway.
Quote:siNBin
Did I say, I hate losing to Exeter! Slades whinging to the ref today was embarassing
Let's be honest we are not beyond that sort of behaviour ourselves.
My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.
I'm begging her for one more try!
Quote:Happy Sarrie
Let's be honest we are not beyond that sort of behaviour ourselves.
I think its fair to say that the referee had quite a lot of helpful advice from both sides throughout the game!
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