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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:10:19:21:39:55 by Darraghgirl.

Willis v Dombrandt doesn't seem fair. Almost cruel.

We went to the Stoop last year in round 3 after two even better wins, and came away with nothing and the horrendous injury to AOC.
Quins back row outplayed ours that day and they played like Sarries of old, very strong defence and clinical execution of very few chances.
Make no mistake this is still their cup final and we need to be at our very best to dampen the febrile atmosphere we’ll encounter.
Don’t underestimate Dombrandt, he nearly beat us on his own in the Prem Cup.
Selection will be interesting!

Quins doing the double against us last year will hopefully provide plenty of extra motivation! Some interesting sub-plots, Faz is the leading individual points scorer against Quins, hopefully he can significantly increase his record. AOC returning to the stadium of his injury will no doubt bring back memories, it will no doubt be a big day for him.

It’ll be tough, Smith back and Quins will no doubt bring their A game but I feel like we have a much more stable platform to build upon than this time last year.

Quote:

The Bard
We went to the Stoop last year in round 3 after two even better wins, and came away with nothing and the horrendous injury to AOC.
Quins back row outplayed ours that day and they played like Sarries of old, very strong defence and clinical execution of very few chances.
Make no mistake this is still their cup final and we need to be at our very best to dampen the febrile atmosphere we’ll encounter.
Don’t underestimate Dombrandt, he nearly beat us on his own in the Prem Cup.
Selection will be interesting!

The post of a natural pessimist. Welcome brother!

I have them as bottom two this season which makes a home game with their "stars" back against their London rivals the game this season in my view.
They not only beat us but did the double last season which given how poor they were most of the season really added insult to injury.
I'm sure the team won't be taking them lightly but equally I'm struggling to see where they hurt us. Dombrandt? He showed up well in a pretty much full Quins team against our PRC one. Having said that I felt the same last season and that didn't go too well.

A continuation of our good start this season would be putting away this Quins team with a bit to spare.
That doesn't necessarily mean a massive points margin but rather a performance in which we're in control the entire game as I felt we have been for the first two and we deal with the challenges they present.

I'm looking forward to it and hopefully it can be a winning double from the Men as well as the Women's teams this weekend.

While the Tottenham performance was straight up dreadful and Quins were simply better, I do think the performance at the Stoop has to be taken in context with AOC’s injury. I can only imagine the mental impact that would have when you’re playing.

It’s a big game for both teams but Quins will be desperate for a win so we will have to bring the high level of commitment in the tackle that we have shown the last 2 weeks if we are to prevail. I am hopeful but Quins are still a dangerous side if you give them an inch.

Quote:

TommyKentish
While the Tottenham performance was straight up dreadful and Quins were simply better, I do think the performance at the Stoop has to be taken in context with AOC’s injury. I can only imagine the mental impact that would have when you’re playing.

100% This it shook the club to its core. What I can tell you is that the boys are well up for this. Training this week was immensely hard and the internationals all know they have to keep up the momentum up.

A win here and we're up quite considerably vs last seasons results. As ever I'm looking for performance (and the results will look after themselves eventually) and as dirtybertie intimates the most disappointing thing for the fans was just how *bad* the performances vs quins were last year. Time to prove the branding true, eh? ;-)

Team info against Quins:

Saracens Men team to play Harlequins:

1 Rhys Carre

2 Theo Dan

3 Marco Riccioni

4 Nick Isiekwe

5 Hugh Tizard

6 Andy Onyeama-Christie

7 Ben Earl

8 Tom Willis

9 Ivan van Zyl (c)

10 Fergus Burke

11 Lucio Cinti

12 Owen Farrell

13 Nick Tompkins

14 Jack Bracken

15 Max Malins

Replacements:

16 Jamie George

17 Eroni Mawi

18 Alec Clarey

19 Harry Wilson

20 Olamide Sodeke

21 Juan Martin Gonzalez

22 Charlie Bracken

23 Brandon Jackson

Injured: Phil Brantingham, Elliot Daly, Max Eke, Tobias Elliott, Olly Hartley, Toby Knight, Alex Lozowski, Theo McFarland, Vilikesa Nairau, Sam Spink, Harvey Beaton, Rotimi Segun.

Unavailable: Tietie Tuimauga, Nathan Michelow, Maro Itoje

Quins:

HARLEQUINS v SARACENS
Sunday 12 October (KO 15:00)
Twickenham Stoop
Live on TNT Sports
STARTING XV:

15. Tyrone Green (97)

14. Rodrigo Isgró (13)

13. Oscar Beard (79)

12. Jamie Benson (26)

11. Cadan Murley (C) (131)

10. Marcus Smith (178)

9. Will Porter (46)

1. Fin Baxter (72)

2. Jack Walker (93)

3. Harry Williams (3)

4. Guido Petti Pagadizábal (*)

5. Kieran Treadwell (9)

6. Jack Kenningham (76)

7. Will Evans (118)

8. Chandler Cunningham-South (33)

IMPACT PLAYERS:

16. George Turner (2)

17. Boris Wenger (*)

18. Pedro Delgado (*)

19. Jonny Green (13)

20. Zach Carr (11)

21. Alex Dombrandt (159)

22. Stu Townsend (*)

23. Sean Kerr (12)

It’s interesting that we have gone with a 6 vs 2 split on the bench. Although in extremis you could switch Ben Earl to the centre.
I like the look of the team and feeling pretty hopeful.

It’s a good, exciting side and I’m pleased we’re maintaining our progressive outlook.

Only worry is the 6-2 split. It was a disaster each time we did it last season. Hoping it doesn’t come back to bite us yet again.

Referee: Adam Leal
ARs: Jonathan Cook & Jonathan Healy
TMO: Stuart Terheege

If I’m Quins then I’m testing out wings under the high ball a lot, especially with Isgro chasing. Still, strong team from us, should be a good match with both sides bringing some big guns back.

We certainly look to have the stronger bench …

Gutted for Segun that he's on the injured bench. Hopefully a knock rather than anything else as one of the real joys of the season so far was seeing him get through games unscathed and playing brilliantly.
I guess Jackson on the bench is pecking order rather than Caluori has taken a knock. I think his aerial work would have been a huge asset in this game.

The team looks very strong and it's great to have some of our returnees back. Pretty harsh on Hadfield given his performance last week but I guess that's the reality and I he'll surely have other opportunities whilst George is away with England.

There's a few things there that like others I'm not sure about.
We are so reliant one Willis and with him now an England certainty too we might need to manage his load a bit more. With Earl in my view having been great there for the Lions and our 4,5, 6 having gone so well last week I think I'd have preferred Earl to 8 everything else in the pack unchanged and Willis either benched or rested ahead of Sale.

Likewise as someone said the other day I'm not sure about this business of Cinti on the wing and yet he's obviously a top quality player and so it makes sense getting him in the XV. Again maybe in at 13 with Tompkins going to the bench but again the later has played so well so get the conundrum the coaches have. Mind you Cinti v Isgro will be an interesting International head-to-head.

Like others I'm not a fan of the 6/2 other than for very specific games where the attrition on forwards is likely to be significant.

It's still a quality team and I'd hope it has too much for Quins.
A few names I'm not familiar with in their selections and interesting to see CCS at 8 with Dombrandt on the bench. Probably the most obvious threat is the dual 7's who have done their best to keep Quins in the last two games.
Last season makes me cautious about any predictions but I'd be pretty surprised if we lose this one.

Noah is playing for Ampthill this week

Hmm... interesting.
Quins seem to be going full-fat for this game, so do we.
Starting CCS is a bold call, obviously going for Dombrandt as an impact sub running against tired legs... or maybe he didn't fancy taking on a Saracens backrow of Onyeama-Christie, Earl and Willis lol.

I am going to predict Sarries by 4. Close game and we will narrowly snatch it at the end. Enjoy all those going!

Really not a fan of 6-2, even with Earl involved. It probably cost us the game at Spurs. The starting back 5 all have good engines and can usually do 80 so why tie up 3 bench spots?

Who is the player in the photo accompanying the preview.

saracensfan62 after last season I think most of us would take any win but I'd really hope that we put in a proper performance. Both teams seem pretty much as strong as they could be and yet looking at the team sheets there seems a bit of difference in class between the sides.
Hopefully that doesn't come back to bite me.

Bit of a titchy photo but I think it's Jack Bracken.

Tks Sarsen.

Not long to go. Hoping for a performance to back up the past couple of weeks and keep the pressure on Bath at the Top of the table.

Quote:

TommyKentish
If I’m Quins then I’m testing out wings under the high ball a lot, especially with Isgro chasing. Still, strong team from us, should be a good match with both sides bringing some big guns back.

Not happy being correct about this. 6-2 rears its head again,

Back to the aimless kicking of last year

Has IVZ or up a kick that's gone further than 8 inches forwards yet? FFS

Aimless kicking is brought on by the pressure we’re being put under by Quins doing their annual SA impression.

Only 3 points in it. Some flashes of intent towards the end of the half. Can be and will be better 2nd half.

My team talk: give it to Tom!

I’d say “pretend to give to Tom and give the Earl/AOC” Quins double man marking Willis right now.

Fair play to Quins they're playing really well and kicking very intelligently. Smith having a good impact.
We're very lucky to only be 3 behind.

First 25 was absolute garbage. Back to slowing down the ruck and kicking away possession. It's crazy after the first two weeks that we'd recycle this rubbish.
Farrell especially poor and despite his brilliant pass leading up to the try he is anonymous as a leader currently where the team is looking a bit directionless.

A bit of a reality check re the reliance on Willis for momentum too. He is, apparently, only human and if he is always gang-tackled its going to be difficult. Need more alternatives at the line and in the carrying.
Need more attacking intent and sense. Bracken is class but trying to run the ball out when he had the time to take the kick was dull. I didn't cost us but we need to be smarter.

Interesting that Quins are counter-rucking rather than jackalling which to be fair is what I'd have expected given their twin 7's. Need to address that for the second half either committing more players to rucks or preferably offloading before or out of contact.

Time for McCall and Co to earn their money. We're currently third best in a two horse race.
Both our backrowers and our back three are being marginalised by us playing without the ball.
I'm still optimistic for the result but we need a huge improvement on the first half and not to be so reactive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:10:12:16:09:16 by PaulHerox.

Good grief ...

Last two weeks we've dominated contact, not this week

Why do we have Burke touch kicking when we have Faz???

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

Back to Van Zyl playing the full 80 when pace is needed

One of the worst performances but an individual player I have ever witnessed.

Last two weeks were good. Last week’s first half was excellent.

But that was f garbage.

Good news is that we know what tactic aides will employ against us every single game going forward.

Handling awful by a number of our lot.

Congratulations Quins.
It was a very intelligent performance but it's worrying how little they really had to do to win.
Sale will be licking their lips at our general ineptitude in the air.

This has been very poor from Farrell. Twice we get the ball with the opportunity to play wide in the last 5 minutes and he plays back into traffic. Almost as brainless as his turning down 3. A match-loser rather than winner.

I really like Malins but he had a very poor game too.

Usual suspects out for Van-Zyl. He plays like he's asked to play. Slow the ball, box kick away. Brainless coaching. They haven't learnt in two seasons no sign they'll learn for the future.
All the bright hope of the first two weeks washed away with a return to the mean.

IVZ poor but partly because we were being mullered at the breakdown. Tizard is a big lump but soft as a sponge. AoC anonymous. Too much reliance on Willis as above. Really missed Tompkins in attack and defence. 6/2 always going to be playing with fire. We got burnt (again)

Quote:

siNBin
Handling awful by a number of our lot.

Agree. Obviously the sun was a factor but it should have been for Quins too but we didn't test them.
Pretty sure Malins knocked on every pass he received.

I know he's not a big name but Wilson was missed in the starting XV.

We didn't deserve anything from that but we'll take the point.

The funny thing is we played the kicking game as did Quins but actually the team we had today is not that good under the high ball. For example Malins knocked on a few times. I am thinking that Daly may be a better fit at full back. Pretty poor performance playing to a very limited game plan.
Where was the distribution that we had seen the previous two weeks. I think we missed Segun more than I expected as he is good at breaking tackles.
Certainly gives Maro something to work on as Captain this week!

Quote:

PaulHerox
Congratulations Quins.
It was a very intelligent performance but it's worrying how little they really had to do to win.
Sale will be licking their lips at our general ineptitude in the air.

This has been very poor from Farrell. Twice we get the ball with the opportunity to play wide in the last 5 minutes and he plays back into traffic. Almost as brainless as his turning down 3. A match-loser rather than winner.

I really like Malins but he had a very poor game too.

Usual suspects out for Van-Zyl. He plays like he's asked to play. Slow the ball, box kick away. Brainless coaching. They haven't learnt in two seasons no sign they'll learn for the future.
All the bright hope of the first two weeks washed away with a return to the mean.

I know you're the last one to realise but you really don't understand the game.

We were outthought and outmuscled. JMG and Willis excepted. Two England captains yet little signs of leadership on the field. Quins had two tries chalked off so if anything the score flattered us. The only positive is the LBP!

Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.

I’m giving AOC a full pass, can’t be easy going back to the stadium of his injury. The rest of the pack with the exceptions of Dan and Willis got out fought utterly. It was a miracle we were still in the game. Bringing on Bracken at the end there is laughable frankly. Malins had a mare but we know the class is there.

The coaches really need to wise up to the fact that Quins have worked out how they want to play against us and that is Saracens c.2015. Consistently losing the physical and kicking battle is really unforgivable.

4-7 weak and Tizzard and Isielwe together is like having 2 6ft 5 bouncers who let everyone in... when we play the physical game we lose. Saw it last year.

Burkes kicking to touch is disgraceful...he either gets about 10 yards or bow goes backwards.

Re IVZ game was impossible due to the pack being on wheels except Willis. Ben doing his cheerleading but contributing little isnt what we need from his prem games

Ugh that was unpleasant to watch especially against Hardlywins. They did their homework, executed quite well and we couldn't deal with it. Ho hum move on with a LBP.

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

Last few weeks our time to recycle ball was very good so IVZ looked great. We got beaten up front ball slowed down and never looked the same. Ultimately we were lucky to get anything from that game. Quinn were a lot more than 6 pts better than us.

One thing we did show again though was show good defense to only give up 2 tries.

Think the Harlequins social media team have just got one back for Bristol & Newcastle!

[x.com]

You give it , you have to take it. TBF we are lucky we didn't get a bigger defeat.

On to next week... Sale at home which has been a dismal kickathon last 2 years

Pleased with the point considering how little territory we had. Fair play Quins, they did a number on us and we had no plan B, which is why we reverted to box-kicking which is no longer our forte.

Too many players having an off day…but I’m relatively happy with taking the point and being 3rd st this juncture. Next 2 weeks are big tests, Sale and then Saints away on a Fri night.

And then Bath the round after

Quote:

JK12
4-7 weak and Tizzard and Isielwe together is like having 2 6ft 5 bouncers who let everyone in... when we play the physical game we lose. Saw it last year.
Burkes kicking to touch is disgraceful...he either gets about 10 yards or bow goes backwards.

Re IVZ game was impossible due to the pack being on wheels except Willis. Ben doing his cheerleading but contributing little isnt what we need from his prem games

Totally agree re the forwards in this comment.

Isiekwe and tizz should be smashing people and being utterly physical. I’m sorry they just aren’t, nor have been for a while to be honest.

Also agree re earl. Whilst doing it for England, he just hasn’t turned up consistently enough for me for a similar period of time.

We have a pack of forwards that on paper should be up there with the best. Certainly in the prem and perhaps even on the fringes of Europe.

Through nothing at all, I actually think we’ll beat sale but today was incredibly disappointing.

I think the reaction above is a bit OTT.

We were poor, but it wasn’t due to lack of invention or intent (which was the issue last year), Quins matched us physically but imo we weren’t outmuscled or outgunned. Our scrum was very harshly treated by the ref - on another day we would have been rewarded there.

We lost simply because we dropped every single high ball that was sent our way. Catch 2/3 of them and we’d have won.

Our back 3 along with IVZ who was sweeping were all over the shop. The infernal slap backs just keep falling to the wrong people. I would say “just bloody catch it” but they absolutely couldn’t do that either. Max in particular really struggled.

Sale will really go for this next week.

But.. this is a fixable problem. I think Noah should play next week - if he is as good under the high ball as the coaches are briefing then get him in. I’d rather we lost like this, than lost like we did last year which was miserable.

Cunningham-South had probably his best game for Quins, he was making the yardage that Tom was struggling to do with 2-3 tacklers on him. Cinti actually had a decent game, and Fergus was decent in open play. Don't think we got the ball to Jack once through the hands, a real shame as I think he had the legs on their back three.
Defense was generally good considering we were doing it for 70 minutes.
But I have never seen any team so poor under a high ball.

Quote:

TommyKentish
I
The coaches really need to wise up to the fact that Quins have worked out how they want to play against us and that is Saracens c.2015. Consistently losing the physical and kicking battle is really unforgivable.

Yes. They did exactly the same last year.

After 10 years of being “oh we can score from anywhere” and overplaying v us, they now don’t play any rugby at all and just kick it. And have won the last 3.

Smally reaction on bbc - says we didn’t deserve anything and managed to get a point.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

He’s right, I think the coaches need to take some of the responsibility and the players need to as well.

don't forget saints away.....

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

Quote:

Strangelove
He’s right, I think the coaches need to take some of the responsibility and the players need to as well.

I’m as happy as anyone to have a pop at the coaches when appropriate, but I’m not sure what responsibility they take for today (other than maybe the 6-2 split which went wrong yet again - never again!).

They can’t catch the ball for the players.

I thought intent and gameplan was fine. We just couldn’t get any control because every time the ball went in the air, we dropped it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:10:12:21:09:48 by #wolfpack1.

Quote:

#wolfpack1
I think the reaction above is a bit OTT.
We were poor, but it wasn’t due to lack of invention or intent (which was the issue last year), Quins matched us physically but imo we weren’t outmuscled or outgunned. Our scrum was very harshly treated by the ref - on another day we would have been rewarded there.

We lost simply because we dropped every single high ball that was sent our way. Catch 2/3 of them and we’d have won.

Our back 3 along with IVZ who was sweeping were all over the shop. The infernal slap backs just keep falling to the wrong people. I would say “just bloody catch it” but they absolutely couldn’t do that either. Max in particular really struggled.

Sale will really go for this next week.

But.. this is a fixable problem. I think Noah should play next week - if he is as good under the high ball as the coaches are briefing then get him in. I’d rather we lost like this, than lost like we did last year which was miserable.

Yep, some people in here are remarkable in their ability to flip-flop from week to week. Quins won their cup final. And they did it by abandoning everything they supposedly hold dear and consider 'the Quins way' - at home in front of their own fans. Smith kicked the leather off the ball for 80 minutes. Coupled with that, IVZ once again had a poor game, his box kicks were awful despite the ridiculous idea that he is instructed to play that way by the coaching team.

Saracens are a good team but still a work in progress. Keep the faith.

Quote:

Toga
Coupled with that, IVZ once again had a poor game, his box kicks were awful despite the ridiculous idea that he is instructed to play that way by the coaching team

For the love of Rugby get a friend who actually understands the game to explain it to you. You have literally seen the last two weeks that it isn't about abilities of the player but how he is instructed to play and you still don't accept it.
Coaches do not pick players who do not play according to their wishes. If Van-Zyl hadn't been playing as they wanted the past seasons and again today he wouldn't be picked. If it wasn't the plan Bracken would have come on at 40.

Van-Zyl has been in with a shout with being MotM the last two weeks because he's been playing the ball away quickly and sniping not slowing the ruck ball and box-kicking possession away as he's been instructed to do for much of the past couple of seasons. If you really can't see that the first 25 minutes I'm at a loss.

I agree with #wolfpack1 about the players responsibility.
Before the game I'd have said both Malins and Bracken were good under the high ball. I'm not familiar enough with Jackson but all three struggled badly both into the sun and not and a fair few of the kicks were not under significant pressure. Jackson not jumping for the ball put up when he was behind our try-line was especially poor.

It's not the end of the world but it was a disappointing performance were we seemed second best all game and entirely clueless how to change things.
Playing without the ball was no more the answer than it was the last two seasons though.

Hopefully this was the reality check we needed and we will at least learn lessons from it. We didn't the last two seasons but you live in hope.

JK12 I thought Earl had a massive game. Everywhere in defence and contributed in attack but I'd agree that despite that his actual impact felt limited. He's such a class player I think we have to work ways to get him involved wider out and as the game breaks down but obviously if we kick ball away that's harder to do.

Re the locks its hard to work out what the issue was today but I think Wilson was probably the pick of them in the first two rounds although to be fair both played well then too.

Congrats to Quins, they deserved it and being at the Stoop the music they play I believe was a Bob Dylan song was really annoying after a while lol.

The ball looked like a bar of soap whenever we were handling it, Im sorry I agree IVZ kicks kept looking like they were floating backwards and causing us more pressure. The kicking was not great, I thought we could play more through the hands and cause them a problem.
Is Nick I playing within himself when he is on song he can be a handful and the Jury on Tizard is still out for me. I thought he looked the kind of player who would punch holes in the opposition defensive line. But he is not bullying any defensives and seems to be soft oh contact.
We need another player like Willis to carry really aggresively, we miss a player like Wil Skelton.

I was lucky enough to be a guest in one of the Quins hospitality venues where Joe Launchbury was on hand to explain what the stats of the last two weeks meant, and what Quins had to do to win. It was really interesting, and way, way more complicated than some on here might think. Simply put, shutting down Tom Willis, negating our line out jumpers, slowing ruck speed and, frankly, not playing the traditional Quins way were the main themes and you could see that happening in the match. It was also clear that this match meant so, so much to Quins - it really was a final of sorts for them.

Sarries were poor, with too many dropped balls and other errors, but to come away with a BP when most of the match was played in our half was a major result. We have too many good players to be that bad every week, so I think we have to accept that we were second best and move on with confidence.......not start slagging off all and sundry....again.

Quote:

Roger G
I was lucky enough to be a guest in one of the Quins hospitality venues where Joe Launchbury was on hand to explain what the stats of the last two weeks meant, and what Quins had to do to win. It was really interesting, and way, way more complicated than some on here might think. Simply put, shutting down Tom Willis, negating our line out jumpers, slowing ruck speed and, frankly, not playing the traditional Quins way were the main themes and you could see that happening in the match. It was also clear that this match meant so, so much to Quins - it really was a final of sorts for them.
Sarries were poor, with too many dropped balls and other errors, but to come away with a BP when most of the match was played in our half was a major result. We have too many good players to be that bad every week, so I think we have to accept that we were second best and move on with confidence.......not start slagging off all and sundry....again.

Couldn't agree more. Quins gave up everything they hold sacred in the way they play to beat Sarries. They will not play with that intensity again this season.

One positive is that the Sarries coaches will have learned a lot from this match regards players they can trust when under pressure. Plenty of skills errors on show, particularly box-kicking and catching.

Quote:

Toga
Plenty of skills errors on show, particularly box-kicking and catching.

I agree as well, and this is the nub of it.

I’d like to think we won’t make that many errors again, although Big Al and George Ford will no doubt test this next weekend.

IVZ box kicking was poor- he kept spooning it straight up. And our attempts at “competing” are always just whacking it back towards our try line turning it into a lottery. I really despise that tactic - why not at least try to catch it?

But this is a skill error, rather than the beef I’ve had with him for 18 months which is about his dithering or tempo. I again think he was better yesterday. I have no problems with the approach or the intent. I thought Fergus-Faz-13 (Cinti for most of yesterday) looked good again.

Quins are a poor side. We were rubbish, and had no territory and they still only scored 3 tries at home and couldn’t deny us a LBP. They won’t be troubling the scorers this season. But that’s a problem for us - like last year we’ve dropped points already against one of the weaker sides and that’s a frustration.

Sale next week will be tough. I’d bring in Noah because of his high ball ability (reputed). Think Jack B deserves to retain his place. Is Daly fit? I think Max is such a class player, but he struggled so much under the high ball yesterday that if Daly was fit I’d be tempted to play him.

Quote:

#wolfpack1

Quote:

Toga
Plenty of skills errors on show, particularly box-kicking and catching.

Sale next week will be tough.

It will be tough because they have good players but Saracens will at least prepare for the match and adopt tactics that will match well with how Sale will play. It's clear that the Quins kick everything strategy caught Sarries out because they hadn't prepared for it. I just watched the Green try again and that really was a terrible error by Burke, he was under no real pressure and gifted them 7pts for doing very little.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:10:13:09:40:04 by Toga.

One thing for sure yesterday didnt sell any tickets for the evening showdown, glad I’m not going if they play like that

Well Goodey is now the specialist skills coach for the backs. Pretty clear what is in his in-tray for this week!
Sun should be less of an issue at Stonex at 5.30 but the threat will remain.
We’d prepared for the Harlem Globetrotters rather that Henry V’s Longbow regiment!

Quote:

tigersimon
Think the Harlequins social media team have just got one back for Bristol & Newcastle!
[x.com]

[x.com]

Quote:

Roger G
It was really interesting, and way, way more complicated than some on here might think. Simply put, shutting down Tom Willis, negating our line out jumpers, slowing ruck speed and, frankly, not playing the traditional Quins way were the main themes

Is that more complicated than people think. Seems pretty basic to me especially if one had watched either of last seasons games against them last season where they did almost EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
The two additions both of which were very effective were targeting Willis and counter-rucking rather than jackalling. The first is an obvious choice to negate the opposition primary carrier the second is very cute as I'd guess we would have prepared for the threat of their jackallers.

Quote:

PaulHerox

Quote:

Roger G
It was really interesting, and way, way more complicated than some on here might think. Simply put, shutting down Tom Willis, negating our line out jumpers, slowing ruck speed and, frankly, not playing the traditional Quins way were the main themes

Is that more complicated than people think. Seems pretty basic to me especially if one had watched either of last seasons games against them last season where they did almost EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
The two additions both of which were very effective were targeting Willis and counter-rucking rather than jackalling. The first is an obvious choice to negate the opposition primary carrier the second is very cute as I'd guess we would have prepared for the threat of their jackallers.

You really are very tiresome.

Saracens win - they played just as you advocated (some time in the past that nobody can be arsed to check).
Saracens lose - the coaches are idiots and didn't do things that are 'easy' to as you describe in hindsight.

Repeat.

It's very dull.

If a game plan is largely unsuccessful and your successes tend to be marked by the games in which you played a markedly different way only the exceptional dull would neither notice or say there's no correlation.
I'm far from unique on here to have been advocating we move away from slowing ball down and kicking attacking possession away for several seasons.

Quins seem to have discovered a way to play us at our own game since round 4 last season.
I certainly wasn't predicting it then but was surprised when we seemingly had no plan for it at the game at Spurs and again last weekend.
Not to have had some plan to deal with it better by the third outing seems odd. If you think that's an example of great coaching that's entirely up to you of course.

Many things are dull in life.
Personally people who obviously don't have a clue about the game they're commenting on don't do much for me but they've a right to do so on an open forum.
In the meantime I'll enjoy you sharing your wisdom about how our coaching team have promoted to Captain, keep starting and are reticent to sub a player who you think in a terrible player and is responsible for most of our woes.

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PaulHerox

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Roger G
It was really interesting, and way, way more complicated than some on here might think. Simply put, shutting down Tom Willis, negating our line out jumpers, slowing ruck speed and, frankly, not playing the traditional Quins way were the main themes

Is that more complicated than people think. Seems pretty basic to me especially if one had watched either of last seasons games against them last season where they did almost EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
The two additions both of which were very effective were targeting Willis and counter-rucking rather than jackalling. The first is an obvious choice to negate the opposition primary carrier the second is very cute as I'd guess we would have prepared for the threat of their jackallers.

Of course you're right Paul. The 20 minute presentation, which I paraphrased down to a few simple points, must've been deliberately complicated and couldn't possibly have needed an international player to explain it to a quite knowledgeable audience. Also, it's all so obvious that you have to wonder why Quins bother employing the analyst who compiled the various statistics on aspects of Quins and Sarries games that Joe Launchbury was talking us through.

It's now obvious to me that our coaches don't have the insight into the game that other clubs and some posters on here do, and that our not inconsiderable success over the years must've just been luck rather than having been the result of any knowledge of rugby strategy and tactics on the part of the coaching team and players.

Thank you for letting me know what an utter idiot I am for believing that the outcome of a game could have something to do with our opponents strategy, performance level and motivation to beat us, and and possibly a drop off in performance of our players (or some of them), rather than simply being down to what I now see is very, very poor coaching on our side.

Henceforward I will tip my hat to your superior knowledge, and not bother to express an alternative view now that I know you are always right.

That's a veritable field of strawmen you've presented there Roger G. Will you be burning them on bonfire night or keeping them around for the next time you want to respond to a post of mine.

You said something is complex and I disagreed. That doesn't mean that analysis isn't necessary or beneficial but it feels like you're suggesting Quins came up with some incredible new plan to turn us over rather than just rolling out the same plan as the last two meetings with a couple of tweaks.

We have have incredible coaches but they're far from infallible.
They previously admitted that mistakes were made for entire seasons, does that mean that those of us who suggested changes at the time they then embraced are now right rather than being wrong to suggest that our game needed to develop.

Anyone offering an opinion rather than providing fact will likely be wrong at some time and I am lots of the time but it's much more interesting if you discuss why you think that's so. If you don't want to that's fine too of course.

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PaulHerox
That's a veritable field of strawmen you've presented there Roger G. Will you be burning them on bonfire night or keeping them around for the next time you want to respond to a post of mine.

Bonfire night sounds good. I very much suspect this is the last direct response you'll hear from me as I can't remember an occasion when you accepted any opinion that differs from yours, and have at times seemed quite scornful (e..g. the sentence above that I'm responding to)....although I admit the possibility that might just be the a symptom of the terrible medium for conveying nuanced opinions that a message board is.

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PaulHerox
You said something is complex and I disagreed. That doesn't mean that analysis isn't necessary or beneficial but it feels like you're suggesting Quins came up with some incredible new plan to turn us over rather than just rolling out the same plan as the last two meetings with a couple of tweaks.

So you think Quins just made up a complex presentation about how they'd deal with Sarries when they could've just said "we'll do the same again with tweaks"? Well they certainly tricked me into thinking them beating Sarries needed some complex thinking, strategy and execution.

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PaulHerox
We have have incredible coaches but they're far from infallible.
They previously admitted that mistakes were made for entire seasons, does that mean that those of us who suggested changes at the time they then embraced are now right rather than being wrong to suggest that our game needed to develop.

This, Paul, is what rubs me up the wrong way. You use the words "suggested changes" and "they then embraced" as if it was a no brainer and the only reason anything changed was because the coaches read and took heed of your "suggestions". I don't deny that some of the tactics you mentioned have now been adopted, and successfully in the first two games of the season, but the idea that one of the top coaching teams in the country comes to a fans message board for advice is absolutely ludicrous. Of course the coaches aren't infallible, but these people know the minutiae of the players abilities, strengths and weaknesses, they know what has gone well and what has gone badly on the training field, and will also have access to similar stats to the ones I saw Quins present on Saturday to inform their game plan. They will know far better than any of us when the available squad are ready to add something new or change something in our game plan, and when to revert to something less exciting but which they know the players can execute, even if that less exciting approach doesn't deliver spectacular results.

Personally I believe the poor performance at the Stoop was down to an abnormally high level of mistakes from us rather than any fundamental breakdown in gameplan. IVZ's box kicking was awful (I doubt he was happy with it). Our lineout wasn't as successful as normal (maybe Quins had something to do with that?). We knocked on or otherwise messed up in the red zone multiple times. Mark has made his displeasure with the performance clear, and I'm sure we will see much better performances during the season with or without them taking your advice.

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PaulHerox
Anyone offering an opinion rather than providing fact will likely be wrong at some time and I am lots of the time but it's much more interesting if you discuss why you think that's so. If you don't want to that's fine too of course.

So how about allowing other opinions and maybe, just maybe, adjust your own. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't want to hear the same gripes and the same claim to know the (non complex) answer over and over again.

What's with the personal attacks on PaulHerox? We are a team full of internationals and yet we could only manage 6th place last season in a league of 9 (excluding Newcastle). It is entirely legitimate to question our tactics and coaching team in those circumstances as it is when we get beaten up by what certainly appears to be a pretty poor Harlequins team for the third third time in succession. Disagree as much as you like but telling someone who is prepared to engage in debate that they know nothing about rugby, are dull etc is pretty pathetic. Sorry - Paul, I am sure you are capable of fighting your own battles but I certainly don't want you to think some of the views on your posts expressed here are held by all.

I enjoy a good debate and I've asked multiple times on here for people who disagree with me to square the circle re ruck speed, box kicking, how Van-Zyl plays etc and the only answer is "the coaches won lots a while ago and know best"
As a view/reply to challenge my views I'd prefer something a bit more detailed that helps me understand what they're seeing I'm not.

You don't want to reply and I'm not interested in having my views mis-represented so I'll leave it there.

Enjoy the season.








ne we seem to be especially good at anymore.

@PaulHerox
As you obviously enjoy writing about Saracens rugby perhaps you could use your skills to write previews and/or match reports to help keep this page running.

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#wolfpack1
I I think Noah should play next week - if he is as good under the high ball as the coaches are briefing then get him in.

Told you

Good to see Quins building on last week’s performance.

Saw a piece of rubbish in the telegraph today about Owen Farrell being finished because he dropped the ball last week and got some stick for it.

I assume he will write a similar article based on St Marcus’ masterclass this afternoon.

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TommyKentish
Good to see Quins building on last week’s performance.

They're a pathetic club, totally gutless.

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TommyKentish
Good to see Quins building on last week’s performance.