Saracens
Saracens v Castres Olympique Preview
Passionate Castres fans
By saracensfan62
January 13 2025
The final round of the Investec Champions Cup pool stage, we return to StoneX and it all comes down to this game – Castres.
Many will want to analyse all the possible outcomes and probabilities of us getting a home knockout tie, however, in my own mind, the simple thing is for the team to just to put out a performance to be proud of and win! For those who do like to analyse all the outcomes, there is the permutations from the Saracens website attached below.
We enter this fixture after a disappointing away loss to Munster at Thomond Park while Castres have been flying high in the Champions Cup recently, pulling off excellent wins against the aforementioned Munster at the Stade Pierre Fabre and also a 49-10 thrashing of a weakened Bulls side.
Off-topic I know, but I would like to extend my gratitude to all those who made the Munster away trip so special. The SSA, SSaway ticketing and SSA Events, Ma Hogans bar and Rob the manager, every Munster fan who made us feel welcome at Thomond Park and, of course, you fabulous Sarries fans. Well done to all those who made the trip to Limerick, the players definitely appreciated our cheers.
Now, back on-topic. I have attached the Permutations from the Saracens website1 below in order to make it slightly easier to grasp the rather complex rules of the tournament:
“Saracens will progress to the knockouts unless Stade Francais beat Vodacom Bulls by more than 49 points at Loftus Versfeld. We will have a home round of 16 tie if we win as Northampton and Munster will take points from each other.
If both Saracens and Munster win with bonus points, whoever has the highest points difference will finish top of the group.
If Northampton win without a bonus point and Saracens win with a bonus point, whoever has the highest points difference will finish top of the group.
If Northampton win with a bonus point, they will finish top of the group.
The four highest-ranked clubs in each pool qualify for the Round of 16, and all clubs will thereafter be ranked in descending order based firstly on their ranking in their pool and subsequently on the number of match points they have accumulated, to create an overall ranking from 1 to 16.
The pool winners will be ranked 1 to 4, the second-placed clubs will be ranked 5 to 8, the third-placed clubs will be ranked 9 to 12, and the fourth-placed clubs will be ranked 13 to 16. The Round of 16 will thereafter be played over one match as follows:
R16 1: Number 1-ranked club v Number 16-ranked club
R16 2: Number 2-ranked club v Number 15-ranked club
R16 3: Number 3-ranked club v Number 14-ranked club
R16 4: Number 4-ranked club v Number 13-ranked club
R16 5: Number 5-ranked club v Number 12-ranked club
R16 6: Number 6-ranked club v Number 11-ranked club
R16 7: Number 7-ranked club v Number 10-ranked club
R16 8: Number 8-ranked club v Number 9-ranked club
The clubs ranked numbers 1 to 8 will have home advantage in the Round of 16. The clubs ranked fifth in each of the pools will qualify for the Round of 16 of the EPCR Challenge Cup.”
In essence, if we win, we get a home RO16 and potentially home country advantage further down the line. Lose, and it’s potluck as to who we play and where we play and fate is out of our hands. Unless Stade pull off a miracle by annihilating the Bulls on their own patch, we will qualify regardless though.
Castres – a team with hidden dangers?
A fine club with a proud history, Castres are no strangers to success, with their most recent Top14 championship success coming in 2018 when they defeated Montpellier at the Stade de France. However, they fell just short in the 2021-22 season, when Montpellier got their revenge and won the title with a resounding 29-10. They have entered a quieter period recently, slowly building back and have showed signs that they could once again be one of the teams to beat. They sit 8th in the Top14 table with mixed fortunes recently – losses to Bordeaux Begles and Bayonne have dented their hopes of play-off chances. As for the Champions cup, they are 4th, 1 point behind us in 3rd. I am currently unsure as to whether they will go in all-guns-blazing so to speak and send a full XV to the StoneX or send a weakened squad, with the aim being to reserve strength for the domestic league. We shall have to wait and see!
Some key players at Castres include Vilimoni Botitu, French international back Julian Demora, Geoffrey Palis, Kiwi Jack Goodhue and Argentine international Santiago Arata could all feature. Plenty of international class who can change the course of the game in an instant. This is not a match to be taken lightly, and we cannot expect the win.
Saracens – bouncing back from defeat
No doubt both the team and senior management were very disappointed by the Munster loss, but we’ve had time to recuperate, rest and analyse what went wrong. A key focus I expect will be making our attacking shape, backline and first phase plays more incisive. We struggled to get any real go forward against a very structured Munster defence, especially in the backs. This really emphasised we can no longer rely on other teams mistakes to get our points. Our forwards played admirably and were effective at both the lineouts and scrums worked well, with the likes of Harry Wilson and Brantingham adding some excellent physicality.
Our kicking game off 9 was mostly very successful and allowed for significant metres to be made but kicking off 10 and in the backfield (I felt) had little or no invention and it was often Elliot Daly who was the one tasked with long-distance kicking. I noticed Fergus Burke has been on reduced tee-kicking duties, Lozowski often being tasked with goal kicking instead.
As for my expected lineup, I hope to see returns to the starting lineup for Tobias Elliott and Rotimi Segun who can inject some searing pace into the backline, which we were perhaps missing a little vs Munster. I hope Rhys Carre will also be back, he’s been a revelation at LH prop. Perhaps Gareth Simpson will also get a shot at scrum-half, I feel we’ve rather exhausted IvZ. He’s featured in every premiership and champions cup game for us this season. So, my expected team is as follows:
- Rhys Carre
- Jamie George
- Marco Riccioni
- Maro Itoje
- Hugh Tizard
- Juan-Martin Gonzalez
- Ben Earl
- Tom Willis
- Gareth Simpson
- Fergus Burke
- Rotimi Segun
- Olly Hartley
- Alex Lozowski
- Tobias Elliott
- Elliot Daly
- Theo Dan
- Eroni Mawi
- Alec Clarey
- Harry Wilson
- Toby Knight
- Ivan Van-Zyl
- Nick Tompkins
- Liam Williams
This will be the first time these two sides have met in the competition and I expect it’ll be a fiery one with lots to play for. I can only hope the crowd get behind the team and spur Sarries on to a big win and a home RO16 draw in April. This promises to be a game nobody would want to miss. Come on Sarries.
1 https://saracens.com/saracens-men-v-castres-olympique-permutations/
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Discussion started by TheSaracens.com , 13/01/2025 19:51
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13/01/2025 19:51
13/01/2025 19:51
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:30:16:19:51 by Darraghgirl.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:30:16:19:51 by Darraghgirl.
Good write up. Castres are no joke but the aim has to be a BP win here to give us the best chance of topping the group. I’m under no illusions as to our chances of winning the thing but a deep run with a couple of home knockout matches would be great and fill the coffers a bit.
I would be amazed if IVZ didn’t start, he is way ahead as first choice 9 for the coaching team and he executed their plan very well last week albeit with one glaring error. I don’t think they have that faith in Simpson to start a match of this importance.
Plus IVZ won’t be playing prem cup so plenty of time to rest up. Part of me hopes Wilson keeps his place, it would be well deserved IMO. It would be nice to see Hartley starting but I think McCall tends to go with experience in these matches. We definitely need more pace on the wings though, fingers crossed Segun is fit.
I would be amazed if IVZ didn’t start, he is way ahead as first choice 9 for the coaching team and he executed their plan very well last week albeit with one glaring error. I don’t think they have that faith in Simpson to start a match of this importance.
Plus IVZ won’t be playing prem cup so plenty of time to rest up. Part of me hopes Wilson keeps his place, it would be well deserved IMO. It would be nice to see Hartley starting but I think McCall tends to go with experience in these matches. We definitely need more pace on the wings though, fingers crossed Segun is fit.
Thank you TK.
My comments re IvZ are more about his fitness as well as his all round game. I expect he will be given some time to rest soon given how many games he's played this season. He is definitely 1st choice right now, of course with the emerging Charlie Bracken hot on his heels, competition for the 9 shirt will increase I suspect.
Good point re Wilson, I wondered if his physicality might come in handy against a tiring Castres defence if he comes off the bench but he's been superb recently. Looks like he's been with sarries for years. Segun and Elliott definitely the wing pairing I'd like to see and Daly at FB, with Sanjay at 23 to cover both positions should the need arise.
My comments re IvZ are more about his fitness as well as his all round game. I expect he will be given some time to rest soon given how many games he's played this season. He is definitely 1st choice right now, of course with the emerging Charlie Bracken hot on his heels, competition for the 9 shirt will increase I suspect.
Good point re Wilson, I wondered if his physicality might come in handy against a tiring Castres defence if he comes off the bench but he's been superb recently. Looks like he's been with sarries for years. Segun and Elliott definitely the wing pairing I'd like to see and Daly at FB, with Sanjay at 23 to cover both positions should the need arise.
re this being the first time we've met - I remember going to Castres some years back (via a long bus journey owing to engineering works on SNCF) & winning with a Schalk Brits interception try. Was that in a different competition?
We played them in the Challenge Cup in 2009 / 2010, but I don't know whether we have at other times.
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Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
With Cinti apparently injured I’d imagine he’ll start, but really has no case for a shirt otherwise. He’s clearly not the player he was 5 years ago. Less secure under the high ball, little pace and has butchered two simple finishes by failing to pass. I’m sure we’ll see a better side of him in time but he shouldn’t be bed-blocking Tobias Elliot.
I saw Castres play Bordeaux at home just before Christmas on TV and they weren’t impressive.
Will Collier had been going well there but is injured.
I saw Castres play Bordeaux at home just before Christmas on TV and they weren’t impressive.
Will Collier had been going well there but is injured.
Any news on the injury? I really like Cinti but he’s not got the speed for a top end wing. It is a bit frustrating seeing us putting a slow back 3 out in European matches.
darktagnan, yes this is the first time we've played them in the Champions Cup. As AP correctly said, there was an encounter in the Challenge Cup 15 years ago, where we won 23-9.
Paul, I just can't understand how after that Munster performance he would be first choice at wing. He had one good game vs Stade Francais and was unavailable for Bristol due to the concussion he picked up vs Bath. I know Roti had a 'knock' but it wasn't serious so I expect him and Tobias to get the nod at wing for this game.
L Williams also offers options at wing or FB so should the need arise, he can come off the bench to cover either.
L Williams also offers options at wing or FB so should the need arise, he can come off the bench to cover either.
Quote:TommyKentish
Any news on the injury? I really like Cinti but he’s not got the speed for a top end wing. It is a bit frustrating seeing us putting a slow back 3 out in European matches.
Agree. This is a function of:
- Burkes really poor goal kicking (meaning that the coaches shoe horn Loz into the side - even though he’s hardly infallible, and Daly is a very good kicker);
- the coaches deciding Loz is key to the defensive system
meaning Loz is selected at 13 (despite being really quite poor since returning from injury and particularly v Bath and last week when he was dreadful in both games). As such Cinti is shunted to the wing.
Despite being a regular visitor to this site, I don't post much - however I do have some strong opinions on this; Loz is one of the very few players we can't afford to lose at this juncture. Yes, he did have a poor game v Munster but his 'way above average' consistency over the years in both defence ( in particular) and attack means he is one of the absolute 'key cogs' to our success/winning tough, close, knock-out games. When you add his almost faultless goal kicking to this equation, you'll realise (as I do) that he is SO important to our progress during this so called 'transitional' period. His goal-kicking stats are all the more remarkable when you consider that he hasn't kicked competitively for an age whilst he played in the same side as Faz. To add to the confusion, us reverting to a 'rush' defence seems to of caused some consternation, I wonder if the 360 degree turn that England are making in their approach to defence following the departure of Felix Jones (and the subsequent appointment of Borthwicks mate Joe El_Abd) will have a bearing on Sarries defensive strategies going forward? We'll see....
Quote:darktagnan
re this being the first time we've met - I remember going to Castres some years back (via a long bus journey owing to engineering works on SNCF) & winning with a Schalk Brits interception try. Was that in a different competition?
I was there too! It was on a Friday night and we won 23-9 as stated above. There were about 5,000 there (Stade Perre Fabre was half full) of which about 50 were Sarries fans. Every time we scored these tiny little pockets of fans dotted around the stadium jumped up! Very nice town as I recall.
Saracens Men team to play Castres Olympique:
1 Eroni Mawi
2 Theo Dan
3 Fraser Balmain
4 Maro Itoje (c)
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Ben Earl
8 Tom Willis
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Fergus Burke
11 Rotimi Segun
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Tobias Elliott
15 Elliot Daly
Replacements:
16 Jamie George
17 Phil Brantingham
18 Marco Riccioni
19 Nathan Michelow
20 Toby Knight
21 Gareth Simpson
22 Olly Hartley
23 Angus Hall
1 Eroni Mawi
2 Theo Dan
3 Fraser Balmain
4 Maro Itoje (c)
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Ben Earl
8 Tom Willis
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Fergus Burke
11 Rotimi Segun
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Alex Lozowski
14 Tobias Elliott
15 Elliot Daly
Replacements:
16 Jamie George
17 Phil Brantingham
18 Marco Riccioni
19 Nathan Michelow
20 Toby Knight
21 Gareth Simpson
22 Olly Hartley
23 Angus Hall
Removing my duplicate. Nice to see some pace out wide again! Roti getting his 100th cap, hopefully we emulate the women’s in Marli’s 100th cap last week. Anyone got any inside knowledge on Carré? He’s been such a highlight this season, always gutted when he’s not in the squad now. Some very fine replacements though, we’re blessed at loosehead.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:17:13:12:10 by TommyKentish.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:17:13:12:10 by TommyKentish.
So Sanjay not considered because he had a knock. A bit tough on Wilson to miss out as we have no second row cover. Good to see the coaches having faith in Angus Hall rather than putting Eden on the bench or playing another centre out of position.
I would count myself ‘pretty’ knowledgeable on global rugby. Haven’t heard of one of the Castres players…
Looks like Castres are sending a weakened team, completely different XV to that of last week
Quote:jimfitz12
I would count myself ‘pretty’ knowledgeable on global rugby. Haven’t heard of one of the Castres players…
You might have heard of the number 6 (Izzy Moore). He was playing for us a few weeks ago!
Castres team looks like their 2XV, and I’m sure given the depth of French squads we won’t underestimate them, but it’s also an excellent opportunity for five points and locking in a home knockout.
A strong looking team and I'd speculate that as in previous weeks Willis will move to lock if needed.
Agree with TommyKentish about the situation at LooseHead and whilst I also feel Carre is a big miss it is very good to see Mawi starting and Brantingham getting game time.
We really need to replicate that on the other side where Riccioni literally does a lot of heavy lifting given the paucity of other choices.
Very encouraging to see our young backs backed and Segun return.
Whilst I appreciate that we tend not to give injury updates match by match it would be interesting to know the status of Carre, Cinti and Wilson. The later has been incredibly impressive and seems exactly the type of Squad player that form the backbone of successful teams.
We're in a strong position given we play last in our group so we'll know what we need to do to.
A win should be the minimum after last weeks performance.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:17:13:55:52 by PaulHerox.
Agree with TommyKentish about the situation at LooseHead and whilst I also feel Carre is a big miss it is very good to see Mawi starting and Brantingham getting game time.
We really need to replicate that on the other side where Riccioni literally does a lot of heavy lifting given the paucity of other choices.
Very encouraging to see our young backs backed and Segun return.
Whilst I appreciate that we tend not to give injury updates match by match it would be interesting to know the status of Carre, Cinti and Wilson. The later has been incredibly impressive and seems exactly the type of Squad player that form the backbone of successful teams.
We're in a strong position given we play last in our group so we'll know what we need to do to.
A win should be the minimum after last weeks performance.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:17:13:55:52 by PaulHerox.
Hopefully Wilson is being rested for the Chiefs match, it must be a slight shock to the system starting a few matches in a row in the prem and Europe after very limited minutes previously. He’s also been involved in prem cup matches so might need to recharge before that kicks off again.
Quote:The BardQuote:jimfitz12
I would count myself ‘pretty’ knowledgeable on global rugby. Haven’t heard of one of the Castres players…
You might have heard of the number 6 (Izzy Moore). He was playing for us a few weeks ago!
GREAT call, completely missed that. Good to see he is getting game time.
Quote:The BardQuote:jimfitz12
I would count myself ‘pretty’ knowledgeable on global rugby. Haven’t heard of one of the Castres players…
You might have heard of the number 6 (Izzy Moore). He was playing for us a few weeks ago!
I thought the name was familiar!
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
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How has Roti reached 100 caps?! Surprising, but please for him - hope he puts a run of games together without knocks.
It would be interesting to know what his longest sequence of consecutive starts is in that 100.
Quote:The Bard
It would be interesting to know what his longest sequence of consecutive starts is in that 100.
The all.rugby site has all the info on his appearances (including minutes played), except for those in the Championship, so let us know when you’ve had a look.
In the older format of this competition they always played the matches from the same pool at the same time for this last week of pool games. In this format no such rule applies which I think does give an advantage to the last game in a particular pool, which for our pool is ourselves and Castres. So in tomorrow’s game we want to avoid Saints getting the 5 points. All other options are pretty decent for us!!
Lets face it, knowing what happens at Franklins Gardens makes no difference whatsoever to what we need to do on Sunday, which is get a bonus point win to give us home knockout rugby and the most favourable draw.
Saracens v Castres Olympique
Referee: Andrea Piardi (Ita)
ARs: Clara Munarini (Ita) & Lauren Jenner (Ita)
TMO: Matteo Liperini (Ita)
Referee: Andrea Piardi (Ita)
ARs: Clara Munarini (Ita) & Lauren Jenner (Ita)
TMO: Matteo Liperini (Ita)
Quote:Dolph42Quote:The Bard
It would be interesting to know what his longest sequence of consecutive starts is in that 100.
The all.rugby site has all the info on his appearances (including minutes played), except for those in the Championship, so let us know when you’ve had a look.
Thanks, that's just the site I've been looking for. Though it's a bit odd as it reads as if it has been translated from another language! Must refresh my anti-virus programmes.
It gives him 92 appearances over 8 years (!), but that would be omitting the ones in the Championship. He's 28 years old: he's missed some opportunities. I hope he gets a run while he's still at his peak.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
AP - i believe it’s managed out of France, it’s a really useful site, especially for French transfers.
Has the Castres team been announced? Just watch a highlights real of their Cameroonian winger Christian Ambadiang.
Bloody hell he looks good.
[youtu.be]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:18:08:42:11 by Toga.
Bloody hell he looks good.
[youtu.be]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:18:08:42:11 by Toga.
From the EPCR website:
15 Theo Chabouni
14 Nathanael Hulleu
13 Adrien Seguret (c)
12 Andrea Cocagi
11 Josaia Raisuqe
10 Louis le Brun
9 Gauthier Doubrere
1 Lois Guerois-Galisson
2 Pierre Colonna
3 Nicolas Corato
4 Gauthier Maravat
5 Paul Jedrasiak
6 Izzy Moore-Aiono
7 Simon Meka
8 Feibyan Tukino
Replacements
16 Loris Zarantonello
17 Wayan de Benedittis
18 Aurelien Azar
19 Romain Macurdy
20 Yann Peysson
21 Santiago Arata Perrone
22 Joris Dupont
23 Antoine Zeghdar
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
15 Theo Chabouni
14 Nathanael Hulleu
13 Adrien Seguret (c)
12 Andrea Cocagi
11 Josaia Raisuqe
10 Louis le Brun
9 Gauthier Doubrere
1 Lois Guerois-Galisson
2 Pierre Colonna
3 Nicolas Corato
4 Gauthier Maravat
5 Paul Jedrasiak
6 Izzy Moore-Aiono
7 Simon Meka
8 Feibyan Tukino
Replacements
16 Loris Zarantonello
17 Wayan de Benedittis
18 Aurelien Azar
19 Romain Macurdy
20 Yann Peysson
21 Santiago Arata Perrone
22 Joris Dupont
23 Antoine Zeghdar
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
One for history nerds. We also played Castres back last millennium - 1997/8 - in whatever the Champions cup was called then. Won at home, but lost away, which ditched our chances of progress to the knockout rounds. However one member of the opposition so impressed us that Nigel produced his chequebook and thus we secured the services for the following season (and many subsequent seasons) of Thomas Castaignede.
Quote:ICantBelieveItsNotBartyII
Lets face it, knowing what happens at Franklins Gardens makes no difference whatsoever to what we need to do on Sunday, which is get a bonus point win to give us home knockout rugby and the most favourable draw.
If Munster win or Northampton win without a bonus point, we will know the points difference needed to overtake them - so it’s quite a big advantage playing after them
Quote:MarkCol7Quote:ICantBelieveItsNotBartyII
Lets face it, knowing what happens at Franklins Gardens makes no difference whatsoever to what we need to do on Sunday, which is get a bonus point win to give us home knockout rugby and the most favourable draw.
If Munster win or Northampton win without a bonus point, we will know the points difference needed to overtake them - so it’s quite a big advantage playing after them
My point being that its not just about those two teams. There's also the seeding for the knockout rounds across the rest of the pools. The team won't be focusing on just scoring a couple more points than the winner in that game. Even if the best we can do is finish 2nd, as big a points difference as possible might put us as a 6th seed rather than 8th (for example) and change the possibilities for the knockout games. There are also matches at the same time and after ours that will affect that.
Saints’ BP win means the best we can do is second place. COYS
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Saints just edged a humdinger against Munster and as they got the full 5 points we can’t finish top of our pool now. However a draw or a win of any form will see us finish second in the pool with a home tie in the round of 16. As others have said finishing seed 5 vs say seed 8 may make a difference to the quarter final venue so a strong win tomorrow would definitely be a bonus.
No wind or rain tomorrow either and whilst still pretty cold not as Baltic as some of our recent games!
No wind or rain tomorrow either and whilst still pretty cold not as Baltic as some of our recent games!
After today's matches any win tomorrow and looks highly likely we would be 6th seed for the last 16. It would then be Benneton or Leicester depending on who ends up 11th seed.
It will almost certainly be Benetton should we win tomorrow, looking ahead if sale beat Toulon it’ll potentially be a quarter final at Northampton also
A surprise win for Leicester with no bonus points gives us a chance of 5th seed rather than 6th seed but obviously unlikely. Kicking off at the same time as us.
I'd possibly argue its more likely to be a better end of the draw as 6th seed anyway but nobody within the team will be thinking about that, and I shouldn't be either! Still just a case of first making sure we win, then getting that bonus point, and then racking up the points. If only it was that easy!
I'd possibly argue its more likely to be a better end of the draw as 6th seed anyway but nobody within the team will be thinking about that, and I shouldn't be either! Still just a case of first making sure we win, then getting that bonus point, and then racking up the points. If only it was that easy!
Quote:The BardQuote:jimfitz12
I would count myself ‘pretty’ knowledgeable on global rugby. Haven’t heard of one of the Castres players…
You might have heard of the number 6 (Izzy Moore). He was playing for us a few weeks ago!
Yes - apparently he is a mate of Theo McF's. IIRC he was said t be on a trial. He looked pretty decent - but that was in a Prem Cup context.
i know its a bit early to be thining this but is there not a provisional weekends set for the last 16 games?
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
R16 - 4th-6th April
QF - 11th-13th April
SF - 2nd-4th May
Final - 24th May
QF - 11th-13th April
SF - 2nd-4th May
Final - 24th May
I'll be missing the QF but the rest of the games I will try and get to (if sarries are involved!)
Quote:saracensfan62
I'll be missing the QF ..................
I suspect 'we all' could be.
.
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:19:16:52:58 by boomer!.
That's a really poor performance and shows that the salary cap has an impact if they can send a second team with that strength and depth. Too many missed tackles, might be better to get a good finish in the league instead. We don't seem to have the players out wide to cause teams problems.
I’m absolutely fuming, that was such an abject performance. Just like Sale last season. All we need was a win and we have a home knockout.
It’s like we take it for granted as players
It’s like we take it for granted as players
Weird how frequently these “bolt from the blue” bad performances are at the moment…
Very very bad.
Very very bad.
Castre showed more desire and physicality. No backs attack from us. Sloppy defence. Reminded me of the loss to clermont in the snow a few years back. Perhaps we need a new attack coach?
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Utterly abject. Looks like we thought we could stroll out and be handed the 5 points. No energy in anything we did, dropping off simple tackles, no ideas in attack. I don’t know what’s up with Earl at the moment but if he’s starting for England then we’re in trouble (I mean, we’re in trouble anyway but more so). Roti can hold his head high, Dan too although needs to work on his darts still.
Fings ain't wot they used to be. Time for the fans to dig deep. Imbalance in European (inc SA apparently) finances to be examined. Ho hum.
My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.
I'm begging her for one more try!
My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.
I'm begging her for one more try!
No matter how bad we were you had to admit Castres were very good. Together, determined , played as a unit , great defence and took chances. Just like the old days when the French showed us up. A reset is needed as well as a new attacking strategy. We weren't going to win the cup but that was vet disappointing
Quote:You have now!jimfitz12
I would count myself ‘pretty’ knowledgeable on global rugby. Haven’t heard of one of the Castres players…
My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.
I'm begging her for one more try!
Quote:Stumpy7780
Looks like Toulon or Saints in the last 16
Unless Toulon have a melt down, it will be away at the saints.
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:19:18:19:17 by boomer!.
Haven't seen anything yet, Jamie came off with a hamstring injury though
Quote:Happy Sarrie
Fings ain't wot they used to be. Time for the fans to dig deep. Imbalance in European (inc SA apparently) finances to be examined. Ho hum.
Imbalances in finances shouldn’t be used explain away imbalances in intent or ideas or style.
Seriously disappointing. It proves several things to me, firstly we are nowhere near as good as we think we are, secondly its a good job Castres didnt put out their 1st string, thirdly Burke is completely innocuous, him and Van Zyl are not great, fourthly our attack is not good, Castres always looked dangerous going forward, we didnt. The list could go on, cant believe we were a shoe-in for a home tie against Benetton and instead its away to Saints probably. Hope Toby is ok.
Just to make it worse, that was Castres 1st away win in Europe for 12 years, aaaargh!
Quote:Toulon aren’t winning atm so I think it’ll be them to be honestboomer!Quote:Stumpy7780
Looks like Toulon or Saints in the last 16
Unless Toulon have a melt down, it will be away at the saints.
We desperately need a new scrum half. Can’t think of a worse game I’ve seen from a Sarries 9 in years that IVZ put in today. Missed every tackle and just so slow at the breakdown. Appalling performance.
Echo a lot of what’s been said. Castres were good and deserved win. Our attack was blunt (again) - slow ball and passes to static players or aimed at their head. Theo was great and going forward, so we subbed him. No incision in midfield, no offloading out of tackle. Give Charlie and Olly starts at Chiefs, we might as well. Hope Toby injury not too serious, but it didn’t look good.
Absolutely awful performance , possibly the worst I’ve seen at home for some time and sadly you could see the Castre tries coming before they arrived. Few games left at home now. We wont get past last 16 on this form and no chance of the playoffs.
lol well we were not the worst of the english loosers today by points but, my word!!! yes they may have enormous backs that can afford but that doenst excuse the drops in open play, the lineout or the very poor idea of tacking islanders upright.....
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Did anyone else notice their hooker in the scrum kept holding their loosehead's top from the bottom of his shirt (lifting it up) such that out tighthead couldn't bind properly? Is this legal?
It looked as though Van Zyl was asking the AR for it to be looked at, but she wasn't interested!
It looked as though Van Zyl was asking the AR for it to be looked at, but she wasn't interested!
Agree with the sentiments above. Paper thin defence around the ruck and down the middle. And our lack of penetration in the backs is alarming.
Quote:Stumpy7780Quote:Toulon aren’t winning atm so I think it’ll be them to be honestboomer!Quote:Stumpy7780
Looks like Toulon or Saints in the last 16
Unless Toulon have a melt down, it will be away at the saints.
Haha, I spoke too soon.
Doh!
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Down there with our worst ever performances. Bookies had us 100-1 on to win, looked like the players believed that too. And with us dominating the set piece and regaining a lot of up and unders it is hard to excuse our blunt attack.
Ball seemed to arrive at the wingers with no defended having been committed so no chance of them breaking through.
Daly kicked superbly but his pace seems to have gone.
Tom Willis struggled to make an impact and we have no other meaningful ball carriers.
Ball seemed to arrive at the wingers with no defended having been committed so no chance of them breaking through.
Daly kicked superbly but his pace seems to have gone.
Tom Willis struggled to make an impact and we have no other meaningful ball carriers.
Andy Goode reckons that we’ll be away at Racing. Sale are beating Toulon. So we’ll be playing Owen if he’s fit.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:19:20:43:14 by Supporting Saracens for over 50 years. .
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:19:20:43:14 by Supporting Saracens for over 50 years. .
Quote:Supporting Saracens for over 50 years.
Andy Goode reckons that we’ll be away at Racing. Sale are beating Toulon.
Sounds about the right level of knowledge from Flabby Goode, we're going to Toulon, Racing aren't even in the Champions Cup...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:19:20:42:11 by Sarriebone.
So if we can beat Toulon, we will then play Toulouse. Great.
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
Supporting Saracens for over 55 years.
That really was a very disappointing performance with our line out being very poor and our back play pedestrian in attack and very poor in defence. Can’t see us winning in Toulon and to be honest only Leinster can stop one of the big French teams winning the Cup this year. I will be pleasantly surprised if we even make the English play offs and can’t see us having a home semi final.
I hope our coaches are seriously thinking about what is needed for next year as we have definitely gone backwards this year. The two small positives were Theo’s go forward and I thought Olly H made a useful contribution when he came on - some of the passes he received were very poor.
I hope our coaches are seriously thinking about what is needed for next year as we have definitely gone backwards this year. The two small positives were Theo’s go forward and I thought Olly H made a useful contribution when he came on - some of the passes he received were very poor.
That was as bad as I’ve seen since the vicarage road days, ben earl needs a serious increase in effort if he wants to keep his international spot. The worst I have ever seen him play
The backs so blunt, scrum half the main issue van zyl so slow
The backs so blunt, scrum half the main issue van zyl so slow
It’s amazing how people are acting like us having minus zero attacking threat is something new.
Our maul and scrum were a disaster last year. What did we do about it? We changed it. The scrum now is no longer as apocalyptically bad as it was. Was literally a penalty at every scrum. Our maul is now a real weapon. Why? Because we brought in a new coach with new ideas. Literally immediately changed it for the positive.
The coaches need freshening up. New ideas are needed.
I’m all for looking after our players when they retire but getting them into coaching but not at the expense of results. The attacking game has been slim to none existent this year and the backs coaches (shaw, sorrell etc) need to be made accountable. Before someone jumps down my throat, I don’t mean public hangings for example but it’s just been very below par this year, and nothing seems to change. We just roll out the same Ivz box kicking and painfully slow ruck speed rubbish each week. Almost like he’s being told to stick with it and play that way.
Is it a disaster? No. But something has to change. Am I confident it will change? No. We’ll lose away at Exeter next week, I fear quite comfortably, rehashing the same old same old again. I will of course be delighted to be proved wrong.
Our maul and scrum were a disaster last year. What did we do about it? We changed it. The scrum now is no longer as apocalyptically bad as it was. Was literally a penalty at every scrum. Our maul is now a real weapon. Why? Because we brought in a new coach with new ideas. Literally immediately changed it for the positive.
The coaches need freshening up. New ideas are needed.
I’m all for looking after our players when they retire but getting them into coaching but not at the expense of results. The attacking game has been slim to none existent this year and the backs coaches (shaw, sorrell etc) need to be made accountable. Before someone jumps down my throat, I don’t mean public hangings for example but it’s just been very below par this year, and nothing seems to change. We just roll out the same Ivz box kicking and painfully slow ruck speed rubbish each week. Almost like he’s being told to stick with it and play that way.
Is it a disaster? No. But something has to change. Am I confident it will change? No. We’ll lose away at Exeter next week, I fear quite comfortably, rehashing the same old same old again. I will of course be delighted to be proved wrong.
Jamie picked up a hammy towards end too, may be a doubt for England.
They managed to pick off our lineout 3 or 4 times, too.
I think we do need some fresh ideas, whether that’s a tweak to the coaches or the way we approach games. Don’t think we will get that this season, so we will have to work on it in close season, with perhaps a couple of additions in key positions.
They managed to pick off our lineout 3 or 4 times, too.
I think we do need some fresh ideas, whether that’s a tweak to the coaches or the way we approach games. Don’t think we will get that this season, so we will have to work on it in close season, with perhaps a couple of additions in key positions.
Really disappointing. With the honourable exception of Roti, our entire backline was totally ineffective in either attack or defence against a second string Castres lineup who really showed us up in terms of willpower & determination.
The only highlight for me was a spirited rendition of Johnny B. Goode by the band in the bar after the game.
The only highlight for me was a spirited rendition of Johnny B. Goode by the band in the bar after the game.
We made the Castres defence look incredibly good. They made ours look terrible
Quote:Supporting Saracens for over 50 years.
So if we can beat Toulon, we will then play Toulouse. Great.
So if we beat Toulon we play Toulouse? That assumes Toulouse beat Sale>
Is the QF draw pre designated?
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Box kicking to huge backs with only Roti kicking was bonkers.
Yes the hooker Wes pulling up the shirt to make it difficult to bind.
And when did pushing a player over be classed as a tackle?
Yes the hooker Wes pulling up the shirt to make it difficult to bind.
And when did pushing a player over be classed as a tackle?
Something ain’t right with the way we’re approaching games.
The personnel in the backs is ultimately fairly average. Cinti is an excellent player but is bunged out of position or unfit (but always fit for the Pumas…) and young Tobias is talented. The others are either passed their best (Daly), well passed their best (Loz) or their best is probably not top level (Tompkins, Van Zyl, Segun etc).
However, on paper, we can put out an exceptional forward pack. Yes we have a couple of injuries etc, but our depth in the pack is really really good (especially in terms of the Premiership) and the young lads coming through are highly thought of as well (Sodeke, Michelow look proper prospects). And yet how often we completely fail to bully teams we should be bullying? How often is our breakdown work second best (with our back row!!)? How often do we completely fail to make gain line yards if Tom Willis doesn’t do all the work, and end up going backwards and just having to hoof it away?
Whenever we lose the interviewers and more glass half full fans than me always refer to “transition”. Yeah, fine maybe in the back line (although really only Burke in…?) but our forwards… we should be better than we are. New ideas and a new approach is needed
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:20:08:37:58 by #wolfpack1.
The personnel in the backs is ultimately fairly average. Cinti is an excellent player but is bunged out of position or unfit (but always fit for the Pumas…) and young Tobias is talented. The others are either passed their best (Daly), well passed their best (Loz) or their best is probably not top level (Tompkins, Van Zyl, Segun etc).
However, on paper, we can put out an exceptional forward pack. Yes we have a couple of injuries etc, but our depth in the pack is really really good (especially in terms of the Premiership) and the young lads coming through are highly thought of as well (Sodeke, Michelow look proper prospects). And yet how often we completely fail to bully teams we should be bullying? How often is our breakdown work second best (with our back row!!)? How often do we completely fail to make gain line yards if Tom Willis doesn’t do all the work, and end up going backwards and just having to hoof it away?
Whenever we lose the interviewers and more glass half full fans than me always refer to “transition”. Yeah, fine maybe in the back line (although really only Burke in…?) but our forwards… we should be better than we are. New ideas and a new approach is needed
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2025:01:20:08:37:58 by #wolfpack1.
Hmm! Everyone seems to be on Ivan's case at the moment. Our backs play is definitely an issue (not in all matches but in many). But a couple of years ago we were the fastest at the breakdown and became champions; now we are clearly not.
Why?? I know the personnel (10,11,14) have changed, but even so.... Is it reversion to an over-conservative gameplan because of settling Fergus in? Is it the players (some of whom are now a couple of years older)? Or is it poor coaching for the players we have?
Key features of yesterday:
- they mostly looked massive compared with our opposite numbers
- the number of times our line was broken with many metres gained (compared with none for us, apart from Theo's efforts)
- our pack held up very well in the scrum and maul and mostly had the advantage - three of our tries came from this
- not so in the lineout which was a shambles from start to finish when they competed
- we have developed the horrible Arsenal habit of losing, or at least giving away bonus points, from a winning position once we have done the subs (viz Saints, Bristol and now Castres
Why?? I know the personnel (10,11,14) have changed, but even so.... Is it reversion to an over-conservative gameplan because of settling Fergus in? Is it the players (some of whom are now a couple of years older)? Or is it poor coaching for the players we have?
Key features of yesterday:
- they mostly looked massive compared with our opposite numbers
- the number of times our line was broken with many metres gained (compared with none for us, apart from Theo's efforts)
- our pack held up very well in the scrum and maul and mostly had the advantage - three of our tries came from this
- not so in the lineout which was a shambles from start to finish when they competed
- we have developed the horrible Arsenal habit of losing, or at least giving away bonus points, from a winning position once we have done the subs (viz Saints, Bristol and now Castres
Quote:The Bard
We made the Castres defence look incredibly good. They made ours look terrible
Let’s be fair to Castres, their defence was incredibly good, the 13s rush defence was incredible and completely panicked our backline all match, reminiscent of Loz against Bristol. The problem for us is that even though we frequently run the same defence we seemed unable to combat it. No grubbers through, no multiple lines of attack. Towards the end I really felt for Olly Hartley receiving slow looping balls from 9 and being asked to truck it up against that massive 12 too.
I know a result like that makes us all prone to over reaction but even McCall seemed shocked in the post match interview, saying the rebuild looked like more work than he expected. Firstly I hope that doesn’t dim his enthusiasm for the project, especially with Morrow leaving it worries me that he’s going to leave too. Secondly though, I hope it gives the coaches the impetus to start looking at overhauling the team a bit quicker. I’ve seen it mentioned that they are very excited about a Hartley/Spink midfield combo, well it would be nice to see it a bit more and playing with Burke. Also maybe we can see a bit more of C Bracken at 9. IVZ has struggled this season, Simpson is clearly not trusted with more than 20 mins if we’re a bit despearate, so let’s see what the new generation can do and build those combos like saints have done. Daly maybe has one more season as first choice but needs competition for his spot next year.
That was terrible. We are playing rugby from the dark ages or rather the kind of attritional rugby which might work if you have a totally dominant pack and an impregnable defence ie us circa 2018. That is not the case and that is not going to work for us now. Our failure to adapt in the last two seasons has been stark. IVZ is becoming a problem - to be fair his box and touch kicking is excellent but if we accept that that is not going to work then the rest of his play is not good enough. His delivery is slow and as for his defence - he could not get out of the way fast enough when their 11 ran at him in the lead up to their first try. I mean I would get out of the way sharpish too 'cos he was massive but I am not a professional rugby player and that was utter schoolboy stuff from him.
I don't blame Burke at all. He has come into the system and is not really doing much wrong - it is our tactics which need to be addressed. Unlike IVZ he is a good defender. I do think he should be kicking though as Lozowski's kicking is only really serviceable.
I felt a bit sorry for Segum and Tobias yesterday. I reckon they would have had the pace on their counterparts but our imagination free attack meant their defence could just drift and we never much looked like getting round them. I was pleased to see Hartley coming on - I think he offers something different in attack and I hope that he gets an opportunity to start more and not just in the Cup games.
About the only bright spot was the scrum which has been transformed from last year and that is without Carre playing yesterday. Theo also had a good game although I wasn't sure why he was subbed quite so early. Seems unlikely that he would have been completely done after only 50 (unlike Balmain which is easier to understand!). The lineout was a shambles although it looked as though the referee was just not interested in policing it at all - looked like something from the 70s with people just jumping wherever they wanted.
Having said all that though - well played to Castre. They defended really well and they've got some real ball carriers. Thoroughly deserved the win and I was kind of pleased for their knot of excited fans in the East Stand who looked really happy.
I don't blame Burke at all. He has come into the system and is not really doing much wrong - it is our tactics which need to be addressed. Unlike IVZ he is a good defender. I do think he should be kicking though as Lozowski's kicking is only really serviceable.
I felt a bit sorry for Segum and Tobias yesterday. I reckon they would have had the pace on their counterparts but our imagination free attack meant their defence could just drift and we never much looked like getting round them. I was pleased to see Hartley coming on - I think he offers something different in attack and I hope that he gets an opportunity to start more and not just in the Cup games.
About the only bright spot was the scrum which has been transformed from last year and that is without Carre playing yesterday. Theo also had a good game although I wasn't sure why he was subbed quite so early. Seems unlikely that he would have been completely done after only 50 (unlike Balmain which is easier to understand!). The lineout was a shambles although it looked as though the referee was just not interested in policing it at all - looked like something from the 70s with people just jumping wherever they wanted.
Having said all that though - well played to Castre. They defended really well and they've got some real ball carriers. Thoroughly deserved the win and I was kind of pleased for their knot of excited fans in the East Stand who looked really happy.
I thought Theo Dan tweaked something? If so, please not another for our injured list.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Quote:AP
I thought Theo Dan tweaked something? If so, please not another for our injured list.
He came back on when Jamie went off, so assume not
If we absolutely had to bring Jamie on (Dan did miss a few throws in the first half, although Jamie did too when he came on) then I would’ve liked to see them move Dan to another position because he was the only one breaking the line. Desperate measures but we were in a desperate situation!
Unfortunately I think the team had the same somewhat complacent view as some of the pre-game comments above and once you start with that mindset it is difficult to change.
Given that we were on top in the scrum I dont really know how we managed to lose that game - we should have been out of sight by half time .
Having said that our first up tackling was non existant -Castres should never have scored either their first try or the one where there scrum half ran through half our side and made about 50 yards before they scored .
I dont think the Monday review will be much fun for anyone .
Having said all that I hope Jamie’s injury is not serious and finally well done to Castres . They thoroughly deserved the win , and in particular their 12looks quite a player .
Given that we were on top in the scrum I dont really know how we managed to lose that game - we should have been out of sight by half time .
Having said that our first up tackling was non existant -Castres should never have scored either their first try or the one where there scrum half ran through half our side and made about 50 yards before they scored .
I dont think the Monday review will be much fun for anyone .
Having said all that I hope Jamie’s injury is not serious and finally well done to Castres . They thoroughly deserved the win , and in particular their 12looks quite a player .
Who is the player who had a trail with us, he looked a handful that played for Castres. We miss those players who can punture holes in defences like Mako and get over the gainline. I'm sure MM has a plan in place and I agree with the sentiments with the refresh of the attack coach. We have one winger coming through but need another and an FB with pace.
Quote:TommyKentish
If we absolutely had to bring Jamie on (Dan did miss a few throws in the first half, although Jamie did too when he came on) then I would’ve liked to see them move Dan to another position because he was the only one breaking the line. Desperate measures but we were in a desperate situation!
I wonder if Theo Dan could play at centre?
It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
Quote:wolfgangvonb77
Who is the player who had a trail with us, he looked a handful that played for Castres. We miss those players who can punture holes in defences like Mako and get over the gainline. I'm sure MM has a plan in place and I agree with the sentiments with the refresh of the attack coach. We have one winger coming through but need another and an FB with pace.
Izzy Moore-Aonio. He was initially at Irish, possibly then Saints, Ampthill and recently had a trial period with us. He is a medical joker at Castres. With Toby looking like he’s out long term we certainly could do with him back
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