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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:24:18:36:11 by Darraghgirl.

Saracens Men team to play Bordeaux Begles:

1 Logovi’i Mulipola

2 Theo Dan

3 Christian Judge

4 Maro Itoje

5 Hugh Tizard

6 Nick Isiekwe

7 Andy Christie

8 Ben Earl

9 Ivan van Zyl

10 Owen Farrell (c)

11 Sean Maitland

12 Nick Tompkins

13 Elliot Daly

14 Alex Lewington

15 Alex Goode

Replacements:

16 James Hadfield

17 Sam Crean

18 Alec Clarey

19 Billy Vunipola

20 Juan Martin Gonzalez

21 Gareth Simpson

22 Olly Hartley

23 Rotimi Segun

Excellent preview enjoy the Grandtwins christening (could you suggest careers at Prop for them to their parents so we have some for the future!)

Good luck to the team and the travelling support.

Lots to really like about that team but with those front row options I fear we'll get pumped at scrum time (also they suggest that West not recovered and Hoskins injured again?) so I hope we have some sort of plan.

Think I'll watch this one from behind a sofa (maybe two)

Other than Billy V that looks the 'heaviest' possible pack we have available - which isn't super promising as you note OM. I'm pleased we didn't pick a second team for a difficult fixture like this - 26,000 in an evening in France is the memories you remember. I'd be absolutely delighted with a losing bonus point, so let's see what the team can do.

I was similarly pessimistic for Lyon away last time we were there and that led to one of the most memorable tries in recent Sarries history [youtu.be] (the skillful beast!) so you never know.

nedrichards tbh sending a reserve team is exactly what I'd have liked.
Beat Lyon at home and with the Connacht win we're still almost certainly through so it feels like an awful lot of risk for limited reward. Also the thought of further injuries is a concern especially in a game played off the back foot. Tbh I'd be bubble-wrapping everyone prior to the Chiefs game but there's a reason I blether on here and McCall and Co have lots of silverware

That said that is not the spirit of this team and there's plenty to commend that.
Maybe we'll see a performance for the ages and it will kick start the second half of the season?

Without trying to sound too pessimistic, I would be happy if we kept it under 50’ in truth. Not only will our pack be moving backwards at the rate of notts, they basically have the starting French back line for the six nations minus a couple….

Could be a very bumpy ride, but this time like to surprise us!

Clutching at straws but how many red cards does Adam Coleman have against Sarries? ;-) Might be our only hope!

Where's Jamie George?

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

Quote:

AP
Where's Jamie George?

slight neck injury

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

With all the props on the French books please could someone bring home a souvenir of their trip.

We are keeping a fair bit of powder dry for next week by the looks of it. Although if Jamie plays next week he still can’t the week after as all the England players will be on enforced rest.

Quote:

The Bard
We are keeping a fair bit of powder dry for next week by the looks of it.

Are we? Look to me fully loaded considering injuries.

McFarland, Cinti and Parton would have featured I’d have thought

Could have but rotation would also explain that. You could be right though.

The last time I went to Bordeaux, to watch Sarries, Mrs Taff MkII and I ended up in a night club. We were the only white faces!

We won, but I think it was by less than one score, as I was screaming at the ref to blow for no side (that's 'full time' for the benefit of younger readers) 😁

The flight back had no food, as the trays had to be removed, as the plane was overloaded, weightwise. I blame Craig Quinnell 😉

Also, Couleur Sports, then the club's travel agents, screwed up our flight tickets, but a coach and a prop (names escape me) were gentlemanly and moved so that we lovebirds could sit together!

Those were the days, as a fellow Welsh person once observed 😁

It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!

Sadly, i now have 2 spare tickets for the match - they are already in hard copy form in Bordeaux right now with my son. Unlikely I know but any interest please pm me. Certainly not looking for full price

Quote:

tidds
Sadly, i now have 2 spare tickets for the match - they are already in hard copy form in Bordeaux right now with my son. Unlikely I know but any interest please pm me. Certainly not looking for full price

They’re close to half way line amongst other Sarries fans

Just watching La Rochelle bully Tigers. I hope this is not a premonition!

I love the way Skelton gets 'man of the match' when hes been the naughtiest player on the pitch.

Quote:

tpr's headmistress
I love the way Skelton gets 'man of the match' when hes been the naughtiest player on the pitch.

Healey nearly gave MotM to Barbery despite him committing two red card offences during the match...

This is going to be a long evening - 19-3 down in the first quarter

....after 20 minutes, lets just hope we leave with no injuries or suspensions. Would be an incredible victory from here!

Maul penalty - yeehah!!!

So many gaps and missed tackles. They are good but we're not helping ourselves.

Scrum is better than I feared though.

Scrum probably the only positive thus far. Second half could be painful

Where’s our pace?! Would like to see Parton, Roti, Hartley and JMG on - nothing to lose, might as well go for it. Not sure if Faz’s head is quite right, can’t blame him, he’s just not his normal clinical self.

I think next week vs Lyon and the following week vs Chiefs are the chance to still have something to fight for this season, crux games.

Come in Sarries, let’s see some passion in the second half.

Have to admire the Bordeaux back line, just awesome.

We need a similar second half to the Bulls match here. Without the red card preferably.

LBND is rambling. This is not the worst we have played. It is against the best opposition this season.

Quote:

siNBin
LBND is rambling. This is not the worst we have played. It is against the best opposition this season.

I switch off the half time rubbish, so pleased I do as he’s always talked rubbish. You’re bang on, UBB look amazing.

Bordeaux are superb and we haven’t turned up at all. So many errors. Faz’s head looks elsewhere, not blaming him but we need to sort that situation out either way if we want to salvage something for the season.

All credit to the travelling support - we hear you on TNT!
A very tough watch, error strewn and tired looking squad.
Time to focus on the Prem methinks?
Timed at 48 mins!

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

Quote:

Happy Sarrie
All credit to the travelling support - we hear you on TNT!
A very tough watch, error strewn and tired looking squad.
Time to focus on the Prem methinks?
Timed at 48 mins!

Well said, error strewn and not improving.
Pretty soon the crowd will be call for ‘cinquante’ which to be very honest we’ve done in the past. Hard to watch but watch I will, I’ve enjoyed bad and good years and am looking forward to many more to come.

Players look slow, passing looks slow, when we actually bother to pass to players rather then to thin air

Quote:

Nosher1979

Quote:

Happy Sarrie
All credit to the travelling support - we hear you on TNT!
A very tough watch, error strewn and tired looking squad.
Time to focus on the Prem methinks?
Timed at 48 mins!

Well said, error strewn and not improving.
Pretty soon the crowd will be call for ‘cinquante’ which to be very honest we’ve done in the past. Hard to watch but watch I will, I’ve enjoyed bad and good years and am looking forward to many more to come.

I got it wrong, crowd don’t need to call for 50 it’s being handed to them.

Bordeaux do look amazing but when we help any team the way we have they will always look good

This will be a long travel home for the fans and team a lot of search questions at a pivotal point of the season

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

I can’t believe the scoreline. How fid we manage to score 3 points .

How funny the commentators are not as enthusiastic when Sarries score a try as when UBB do. No calls of ‘champagne rugby’ for what were 2 great tries

Here we go ! 2 tries in 2 minutes. This could be the greatest comeback since ……..Lazarus.

Bordeaux as good as advertised for sure. I can't get frustrated when we're just so clearly second best to a team - it's cases where one unit lets down the rest of a big effort from the team that annoys me. Still, pleased that the team are keeping on trying, adjusting slightly and trying to get better. It's not coming off but such is life. It's *supposed* to be hard to win away in Europe.

Improvement since Nick T has come on. If Faz goes I woukd like to see him as Captain.

Quote:

Banzai1314
Improvement since Nick T has come on. If Faz goes I woukd like to see him as Captain.

Nick T started

Not the way he talks to referees, we get marched back enough as it is.

Quote:

TommyKentish
Not the way he talks to referees, we get marched back enough as it is.

Pretty sure that was Faz as the ref told him not to shout at him afterwards.

I would be very happy to never have to listen to the Sweaty who was commentating for TNT sports. He is certainly not a neutral. The auld alliance shining through.

Where is Faz's head? Something is very wrong with him at the moment. He's making a lot of mistakes, missing kicks, getting rattled and making wrong decisions. What happened to the guy that could lift the team on his own? The commentators got it right: he looks haunted! Never thought I'd say this but the team would be better without him until he sorts himself out.

Meant to say “back”!not “on”

Manu to start at 10 until we know if Farrell is staying or going. His head doesn't seem in the game and frankly he's been abysmal today.
If Goode wasn't also having a mare you'd suggest Farrell should have been hooked at half time.
Daly should have been hooked at 40 too.

Well done to the scrum holding up as well as it did in the first half. Maro, Isiekwe, Christie, Tompkins, Ivz and Segun can all hold their heads high.

Well done Bordeaux. Some sublime rugby but boy the ineptitude of Farrell, Daly and our poor decision-making in their 22 made them look even better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:14:19:25:50 by OldMarovian.

Basics not even close to being good enough, haven't been for weeks. How many passes to thin air have been thrown over the last few weeks?
Passing - Shocking
Catching - Poor
Kicking - Poor
Kick chase - see above
The list goes on...

Can't play rugby if you can't keep hold of the ball. How many of their tries came from turnover ball?

The break can't come soon enough, best we can do is cross everything and hope for a major reset during that break.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:14:19:20:42 by Sarriebone.

To be fair to Sarries there is a world of difference in class between the Bordeaux back division and any of the Premiership teams. When up against a fully loaded French team or Leinster the gap in resources is simply too much. We need Connacht to do us a big favour against Bristol next week if we are to limp into the last 16. I know it is sacrilege to say for a team with three stars on their journey but it may actually be better if we don’t qualify.
Jalibert and Russo were both simply magic!

Looks like Farrell’s head has already gone, real shame to spoil his sarries career. Sarries unlikely to get into the last 16, very surprising.

The only thing I care about after that game is that there are no injuries, pride aside.
Send the kids out v Lyon and concentrate on the League which will be hard enough.
Tbh after that game I don't want to see any of Farrell, Daly or Goode in the XV for Lyon. Give Manu, Hartley and Parton a free hit please.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:14:19:31:23 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

Darraghgirl
Where is Faz's head? Something is very wrong with him at the moment. He's making a lot of mistakes, missing kicks, getting rattled and making wrong decisions. What happened to the guy that could lift the team on his own? The commentators got it right: he looks haunted! Never thought I'd say this but the team would be better without him until he sorts himself out.

Agree wholeheartedly, farrell was shocking today, we can't keep playing players who are not producing, maitland should not have started ahead of segun,
The scrum i thought would get murdered but was the best we have seen in a while, so a silver lining there.

I honestly believe this is where we are now, i also believe yhat alot of this is coming down to the coaching as we don't seem to be coming up with any game plan

Let’s not pretend this performance and result hasn’t been coming. Other than an excellent 80 mins away at Quins we’ve been very very poor all season.

I hope it is a line in the sand and they recognise that we need to change to make ourselves competitive again.

flavman 35 i think this is a low rather than our level but the break can't come soon enough.
I feel the attack needs a shake up and maybe that means a new coach but maybe it just means a change in personnel and plan?
I know the issues with the scrum and don't discount them but despite some great additions it feels our attack has regressed since last year.
We still have a very good squad but we maybe find ourselves a touch behind the curve rather than ahead of it?
Lots of cap should be freed by senior players leaving at the end of the season which will hopefully give us a chance to retain the younger players and look to strengthen some positions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:14:19:41:29 by OldMarovian.

Quote:

OldMarovian
We still have a very good squad but we maybe find ourselves a touch behind the curve rather than ahead of it?

I’m not sure we do.

We have a decent enough squad with a couple of very good players, and a lot of players who were once very good and who are not any more.

You’re right that we are far too stale in our approach this season; but we weren’t this evening. We actually tried to play a bit, and it was so uncompetitive it was horrible to watch.

Quote:

Banzai1314
Improvement since Nick T has come on. If Faz goes I woukd like to see him as Captain.

Not if when Faz goes

We kicked more ball away than we played with but you're right we did try but it needs buy in and a change of mindset. Players look surprised if someone makes a break and then we end up throwing a pass or offload that's not on for fear of getting isolated.
Watch JMG almost eveytime he goes to ground he's looking for the offload but we're set on clearing rather than keeping the ball alive so the supporting player is over or beyond him rather than taking that pass
We have the players, backs and forwards with those linking skills let's use them.

We are in a trough at the moment but we need to keep perspective on:

1) Farrell is distracted at the moment.
2) A number of senior players are feeling their age but we appreciate the loyalty they have shown the club and may not be as mercenary as other clubs.
3) Away to the Bulls is a nightmare fixture.
4) The salary cap means that English Clubs will need a lot of luck to progress in the competition.

All in all this will be a tough season and we are reliant on others.

Quote:

Nosher1979

Quote:

TommyKentish
Not the way he talks to referees, we get marched back enough as it is.

Pretty sure that was Faz as the ref told him not to shout at him afterwards.

I’m referring to Nick T in general, gives a lot out and it’s cost us previously. Jamie or Earl to captain for me.

Quote:

siNBin
We are in a trough at the moment but we need to keep perspective on:
1) Farrell is distracted at the moment.
2) A number of senior players are feeling their age but we appreciate the loyalty they have shown the club and may not be as mercenary as other clubs.
3) Away to the Bulls is a nightmare fixture.
4) The salary cap means that English Clubs will need a lot of luck to progress in the competition.

All in all this will be a tough season and we are reliant on others.

Fully agree sinBin, points well made.

I think we need Faz to make a decision one way or another so we can get on with things. Let’s try and salvage some pride next week vs Lyon even if we don’t make the last 16. Let’s try and get something out of the Chiefs game, that is absolutely crucial. Let’s give some of the form players/talent coming through game time without just relying on absolute Sarries legends who may be out of form. And then let’s take a mid-season break to reassess and reset. If we need a new skipper, then let’s have someone who leads from the front and can inspire the squad (and talks well with Sir). And we can then look to have some injured players back in 7 weeks time and put a run together to try and a) achieve Champions Cup qual for next year and then b) try and get top 4. To do that we will need results away at Bath and Saints and on present form that’s not going to happen.

We are not suddenly a bad team, but I think this is another of those watershed seasons where some of our legends move on/retire and we have to recruit shrewdly (and that may also mean we tweak the coaching set-up too).

We love our club and we will come through this - we’ve come through a lot worse and had to adapt, it may be one of those times again. Big thanks to the travelling support down in Bordeaux, for better for worse. Safe journey back.

Think we throw the youngsters out against Lyon with a blend of some of the more experienced players. Let’s get Roti and Ben Harris on the wings, Parton at FB. Hartley and Cinti in the centres! Nothing to lose…



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024:01:15:02:14:19 by jimfitz12.

That was embarrassing. I thought the scrum was going to be the deciding factor but in fact that held its own in the first half and credit to Milipola. Instead it was our total ineptitude in the loose particularly in the backs that did for us. Farrell had a complete shocker. Amongst a number of highlights, hurling the ball at Maro’s head stood out. At least half of their tries came from basic mistakes from us. The last 10 were particularly disappointing. Bordeaux got carried away and were practically serving up the possibility of us getting a try bonus on a plate. Instead we contrived to give away another couple of freebies to put the cherry on the cake for them. Also great player that he was in the past, Billy is a complete liability. I reckon he must cough the ball up about 50% of the time taking it into contact. Only bright spots I can think of were JMG and Segun when they came on.

Some of the comments on here seem a tad harsh. There is no disgrace in losing to the better team providing you give of your best. BB played some sublime rugby and their back 3 are the best I have seen in a very long time. Did Saracens give of their best? Probably not in the circumstances, but for many of the golden generation time has caught up with them and it may be better options have been available for some time and should have been explored earlier. We had the same problem at Exe last season until the kids forced their way into contention via the run in the latter stages of the Prem Cup.
Without being judgemental Saracens at the moment remind me of the squad SCW chose for the Lions in 2005. He majored on experience of winning, stacking the squad with members of the winning 2003 England WorldCup squad who were on their way down the performance curve even then and whom by 2005 were well past it.

I think the whole team is being affected by the situation around Farrell , not just Owen himself . The sooner that is sorted out, one way or the other , the better …

Quote:

OTsarrie
I think the whole team is being affected by the situation around Farrell , not just Owen himself . The sooner that is sorted out, one way or the other , the better …

Agreed, and there has been other media speculation about other senior players as well, but not with the same profile.

As a long time Sarries supporter I've seen many bad days before, and a few on this sort of scale. I remember the early noughties when, frankly, we were a Jekyll and Hyde side who could play sublime rugby, but most of the time were pants, and only narrowly avoided relegation on at least one occasion.

I have very much enjoyed the few years of success we've enjoyed (which weren't significantly down to dodgy payments whatever the naysayers want to believe), but recognise that all good things come to an end. We haven't suddenly become a poor team, but some of the more experienced heads are reaching the end of their careers and will need to be replaced.

I firmly believe that one of the strengths of our coaching team is their succession planning. There may be one or two hiccups in the plan, but in general we have younger players coming along to fill the boots of the senior players, the perfect recent example being Theo Dan. The kids need game time and to be allowed to learn from their own mistakes, and if that means a year or two (or more) away from the top table then so be it.

Also did you see Billy’s headfirst launch towards the end? Good job he only found fresh air with that one.

As far as I see we have two international props injured at the moment and we have signed another promising one from Newcastle by all accounts. I agree with some of the sentiments above we haven't suddenly become a bad team. I hope we keep hold of JMG and it looks like we have some great young players coming through as well. I think Faz may go and I'm sure the coaches have a plan going forward. Every great team comes to the end at some point, but with some additions I don't see why we can't be back up there in a season or two.
I love the club and will be there if we experience lean times as well. Mark Mccall is a brilliant coach and I'm surprised Ireland didn't come calling for him. I listened to this podcast eggchasers and I was disappointed to hear how dismissive of Sarries they were.
I think the high of last season was brilliant and it looks like a few players will depart. As OM says it will free up more funds and with the cap going up we can rebuild but with young players in the mix as well.

Still in Bordeaux, flying home this evening.

That was embarrassing. It has to be said that the golden generation is finished and we must let them go with dignity and our eternal gratitude, whether it be to France, Japan or into retirement.

Sadly, with the celery cap as it is, I don't see how we can ever again hope to match the likes of UBB. They were not only in a different class, it didn't even look like we were playing the same sport.

The stadium was a cauldron of noise. 29,000 people, more than 10% of the population of the entire city. And there's the rub: we simply cannot match that level of enthusiasm and popularity. With clubs going bust all over, and young English players heading for France as fast as their legs will carry them, it's hard to escape the conclusion that English professional rugby is in a death spiral.

On the bright side, Les Bordelaises are among the most charming people I've ever met. They may have turned the stadium into a ridiculously hostile place but face-to-face they are incredibly friendly and welcoming, and are actually apologetic about the ease of their victory!

Fair enough to Mulipola for shoring up the scrum somewhat but it was to the detriment in defence, he was continually targeted by Bordeaux’s backs and at least 3 of their tries were from a hole left by him

So far in this competition the results have gone exactly as I predicted, playing a superb side like UBB and a good side like Bulls away only were only going to be 10 - 0 in points to the oppo, Connacht home was 5 points to us, Lyon home I would like to think we can win but 5 points and a better points difference over Briz? Not sure. I loved the days when we played each team in the pool home and away which to me is the whole point of a pool, it’s now luck of the draw.

I agree that we need to let some of the senior players go and then rebuild, it is sad to watch our legends get so badly mauled, we cannot live totally on past memories. Onwards and upwards. Personally I’d rather we forgot Europe this year, we simply aren’t good enough, and concentrate on the Premiership but even that is going to be a very tough call. COYS!

Quote:

Roger G

Quote:

OTsarrie
I think the whole team is being affected by the situation around Farrell , not just Owen himself . The sooner that is sorted out, one way or the other , the better …

Agreed, and there has been other media speculation about other senior players as well, but not with the same profile.

As a long time Sarries supporter I've seen many bad days before, and a few on this sort of scale. I remember the early noughties when, frankly, we were a Jekyll and Hyde side who could play sublime rugby, but most of the time were pants, and only narrowly avoided relegation on at least one occasion.

.

I do agree Roger. "Welcome" - to all post-2010 fans, cos this is how it used to be ! :-)

I'm sure that chez Sarries there'll be no pity-party this week and they'll be back to it - form is temporary and even in the last few years there have been plenty of 'Where has it all gone wrong?' headlines.

Onward ! 'In Mark We Trust"

Didn't we lose 9 matches in a row few seasons back and still won the title? Albeit with a couple of Cup games included

Jeez, I am nowhere near as down as everybody else it would seem I listened to the same EggChasers episode mentioned above this morning and emailed them the below titled "Saracens' Youthful Squad and Glorious Future". Enjoy

As much as I think that everybody writing off Saracens might be exactly what we need in what was always going to be a tricky season post World Cup, the rumors of Saracens demise I would argue are seriously premature (unsurprisingly).

Age Profile
With everybody fit, I give our first choice team an average starting age of 28.5. Definitely older in the backs, admittedly:

Mawi (27)
George (33)
Riccioni (26)
itoje (29)
McFarland (28)
Gonzalez (23)
Christie (24)
Earl (26)
Van Zyl (28)
Farrell (32)
Segun (27)
Tompkins (28)
Lozowski (30)
Lewington (32)
Goode (35)

Most of the players out of contract at the end of this season (that we know about) are the older guys, but most of them are not first choice anyway these days so would expect a lot of these to go. So there will be a bit more movement in the squad at the end of this season than we're used to, but nothing crazy, whilst freeing up a decent bit of salary space even before the cap goes back up:
Jamie George
Mako Vunipola
Tom West
Christian judge
James Hadfield
Maro Itoje
Billy Vunipola
Own Farrell
Elliot Daly
Alex Lewington
Sean Maitland
Lucio Cinti
Juan Martin Gonzalez

Closely followed by Alex Goode in 2025.

So even if you assume all of those guys leave, which is not a given for people like Faz and Itoje, and assume no new signings and no breakthrough players, fast forward three years and you could see a team with an average age of 28, all made up of guys who are already in the conversation now (the one exception being centre where we are certainly light, given Morris is currently on loan at Ospreys). If Faz goes I don't think we would run Vunipola at 10, but for argument's sake with their ages in three years' time in brackets:

Mawi (30)
Dan (26)
Riccioni (29)
Tizzard (26)
McFarland (31)
Christie (27)
Earl (29)
Willis (27)
Van Zyl (31)
Vunipola (26)
Segun (30)
Hartley (24)
Morris (29)
Harris (27)
Parton (28)

Scrum Woes
Yes it's been bad but the amount of injuries in the front row appears to be missing from the conversation. These are the pecking orders for the front row, with the guys who were in the squad on Sunday in bold and on the bench in italics:

Loosehead:
Mawi (long term injured)
Vunipola (banned)
Tom West (concussed)
Ralph Adams-Hale (long-term injured)
Sam Crean (had to be recalled from Ampthill)
Mulipola (had to be signed on a short term deal mid-season due to the above)

Hooker:
George (short term injured)
Theo Dan
Woolstencroft (long term concussion)
Kapeli Pifeleti (injured)
James Hadfield (had to be signed on a short term deal mid-season due to the above)

Tighthead:
Riccioni (long term injured)
Christian Judge
Oliver Hoskins (injured)
Alec Clarey
Harvey Beaton

At LH in particular, where you're running your 5th and 6th choice, that would be challenging for anyone to handle.

Outside of the front row, also missing Lozowski, Hallett, Hunter-Hill and Willis.

McCall has said a few times that this season was always going to be a weird one, with so many guys at the World Cup (we had more than anyone) and the massive gap in the middle of the season meaning anyone with momentum now will have none when we come back in March. My hope for this season at the start was an away semi-final in the prem. With some bodies back after a few months of rest, that still feels very possible to me. But don't tell anyone, tell the world we're finished 🙂

Quote:

siNBin
We are in a trough at the moment but we need to keep perspective on:
4) The salary cap means that English Clubs will need a lot of luck to progress in the competition.

All in all this will be a tough season and we are reliant on others.

Some English clubs seem to be progressing fine, Saints, Exeter, Bath and Quins/Tigers still in with a good chance.

Not sure when kickoff is next week I just looked on European Champions Cup website and it says 7am!! I hope to watch on iPad as away presume its 7pm?

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
To be fair to Sarries there is a world of difference in class between the Bordeaux back division and any of the Premiership teams. When up against a fully loaded French team or Leinster the gap in resources is simply too much. We need Connacht to do us a big favour against Bristol next week if we are to limp into the last 16. I know it is sacrilege to say for a team with three stars on their journey but it may actually be better if we don’t qualify.
Jalibert and Russo were both simply magic!

I'd prefer we did not qualify. Simply because there is no way this particular team will win the title; so Id rather us have more time on the training field trying to right yesterdays wrongs rather than chase a lost cause.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog.

8 PM kick off GMT

Sporting success is a cyclical business. Looking at the dynamics around Saracens and European rugby finances I am expecting a period of more modest success than in the last 10 or so years.

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

Quote:

Keffer K
As much as I think that everybody writing off Saracens might be exactly what we need in what was always going to be a tricky season post World Cup, the rumors of Saracens demise I would argue are seriously premature (unsurprisingly).

Famously, none of the Bordeaux side that gave us a pasting yesterday played at the World Cup…

Couple of official stats:

Completed Saracens tackles: 64; missed Saracens tackles: 33! What a ratio!
Bordeaux carries: 80; line breaks 19! 1 in 4 carries!

Yikes.

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MarkCol7
Fair enough to Mulipola for shoring up the scrum somewhat but it was to the detriment in defence, he was continually targeted by Bordeaux’s backs and at least 3 of their tries were from a hole left by him

If you're relying on a prop to stop the likes of Jalibert you're already in big trouble.

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#wolfpack1

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Keffer K
As much as I think that everybody writing off Saracens might be exactly what we need in what was always going to be a tricky season post World Cup, the rumors of Saracens demise I would argue are seriously premature (unsurprisingly).

Famously, none of the Bordeaux side that gave us a pasting yesterday played at the World Cup…

They had six players who were all back home nice and early as I recall. But regardless, Bordeaux are ace, nobody's disputing that. I don't think McCall has been saying this season would be weird and challenging SOLELY because we had 13 guys at the World Cup. He's described it as a transition, and for the reasons I put in the longer post if you care to read it, I think the near future looks bright.

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maynas
Some English clubs seem to be progressing fine, Saints, Exeter, Bath and Quins/Tigers still in with a good chance

Not of winning the thing they ain't. There's not a team in England that could live with the whirlwind we were subjected to yesterday.

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Roderick Flashheart
I so agree Roger. "Welcome" - to all post-2010 fans, cos this is how it used to be ! :-)

Indeed so, and if we can remain competitive in the Prem then that in itself will be Nirvana compared to the Noughties. I just don't see how (for objective reasons) we (or any other Prem club) can now be competitive in Europe.

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Roderick Flashheart

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Roger G

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OTsarrie
I think the whole team is being affected by the situation around Farrell , not just Owen himself . The sooner that is sorted out, one way or the other , the better …

Agreed, and there has been other media speculation about other senior players as well, but not with the same profile.

As a long time Sarries supporter I've seen many bad days before, and a few on this sort of scale. I remember the early noughties when, frankly, we were a Jekyll and Hyde side who could play sublime rugby, but most of the time were pants, and only narrowly avoided relegation on at least one occasion.

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I do agree Roger. "Welcome" - to all post-2010 fans, cos this is how it used to be ! :-)

I'm sure that chez Sarries there'll be no pity-party this week and they'll be back to it - form is temporary and even in the last few years there have been plenty of 'Where has it all gone wrong?' headlines.

Onward ! 'In Mark We Trust"

Agree!

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Help for Heroes

For me this all starts with recruitment at the tale-end of last season and thinking "wow we could give the ERCC a proper shot this year" ... how things have turned out (to date) is quite a reality check.

That said I am one firmly in the camp of we have a squad with "good bones" and that can be built on. It does mean both trusting the youth and also probably finding a different/variation on how we currently play.

The no1 thing to be sorted is what is happening with Farrell. Ofc it's easy to read too much into things but we felt nervy from the off and the number of mistakes from senior players was frankly bewildering. It feels like the squad is unsettled.

I've huge respect for Farrell but the club is bigger than him and right now it feels like both he and the team might benefit from him stepping back until the club game resumes after the 6 Nations.
In the mean time pick a Captain who could be an option regardless of whether Farrell stays or goes, back the younger players with the next two home fixtures and pick form over reputation.

The sky hasn't fallen and life goes on but we've some hard games ahead to get anything out of this season and I'm not sure the same old picks and plan will get it done?

This season we have faced two of the best backlines we ever have in Europe with the Bulls and UBB. Trying to counter that pace with Goodey, Sean and Lewi was always asking a nigh-on miracle.
Apparently the team flight got delayed leaving by 4 hours on Saturday afternoon so the very late arrival must have meant limited preparations were even worse. It looked like our guys were struggling adjusting to the lights in the first half which is pretty amateur.
As for the French teams, it does look like UBB and Toulouse are a mile ahead of the rest, La Rochelle can offer power but nothing like the running threat. The rest are nowhere.

I think next week could show a real flaw in this version of the Champions Cup
If results go as expected and Bordeaux send a 2nd team to South Africa and we do enough to get the points difference to qualify we’ll end up at Bordeaux again in the Last 16
Also with Bath going to Toulouse next week it’s highly likely they’ll end up 3rd in their group which would probably mean an away game against a side who’s lost more games than them (potentially La Rochelle)

As if further proof were required of the tournament's appalling structure.

Evening all.

Our group was there last night and let's throw in a bit of insight that may have not been obvious or sufficiently obvious on TV.

We got in early as we usually do for away games to take in the atmosphere and the surroundings. The whole experience at UBB was awesome. Great stadium and amazing crowd. Passionate but also knowledgable, not just mindlessly yelling at decisions that have gone against them (unlike some Premiership grounds). And very magnanimous, the evening could have been a lot worse had they not been so. I think they were also a bit surprised by just how easy it was.

The warm-up was lacklustre to say the least. The only two players to show any desire and intent were (we think it was) Kyran Bracken's son who was there getting some experience and Manu, who as we know doesn't get a look-in when Saint Owen is on the scene. Mark McCall, who normally looks laid back and laconic at the best of times, looked totally disinterested on this occasion. The portents were not good.

The game was as it was and well analysed elsewhere on this thread. The sooner the afore-mentioned OF sorts his head out and decides how he wants the rest of the season to pan out the better for everyone.

In his (and other's) defence re the referee it can't be easy when the referee is clearly not up to the standard required.

There were still several minutes left when we got our second try. This was an opportunity to salvage something (anything) from the game. But they simply gave up and returned to the error-strewn debacle of the previous 70 minutes.

At the end the players seemed intent on giving the UBB players a tunnel and then retreating to the dressing-room. It was obvious that they then had to be persuaded to acknowledge the travelling support. So they begrudgingly sloped off to the opposite stand, sought out some friends and family and waved to them. They didn't make any effort to look for other fans, their intention was to disappear as quickly as possible. Back onto their charter flight and their nice warm beds, getting a nice big pay-check at the end of the month. No thought whatsoever as to those of us who had invested time and money and days off work to go and support.

Interestingly the above may have been acknowledged as there was a message on Facebook this afternoon thanking the travelling support. Very much too late and papering over the cracks though, there is now a major disconnect between the players and the supporters.

Thanks to the Bordeaux fans, the friends we met late at night in the Houses of Parliament pub and the lovely parents of Tom and Jack Willis we met on the plane home for rescuing what was in playing terms "un desastre".

Thanks for this insight which was interesting but also disappointing to hear in terms of the teams attitude. am not sure I agree with you on the ref though - I thought he was very clear and didn’t notice anything he particularly got wrong but maybe a couldn’t see clearly enough from behind the sofa.

Agree with JimG. Thought the referee was fine. Were there particular calls you were thinking of TOKS or was it just a more general feeling?

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OldMarovian
Agree with JimG. Thought the referee was fine. Were there particular calls you were thinking of TOKS or was it just a more general feeling?

It was a more general feeling, OM. We were quite low down and didn't have a huge amount of "perspective" so very happy to be guided by those with a much better TV view. Also, my view was slightly guided by the Bordeaux fans around us who were VERY happy with his performance, one of them even commenting that they'd like him every week!

Still, two things are certain. The first is that a shellacking by that margin is not determined by a refereeing performance. The second is that, with our track record of dissent, we'd argue with him (and get marched back) even if he got pretty much everything right anyway.

Good points TOKS.
We were so actively self-sabotaging in play and backchat that the referees performance felt a bit immaterial as you say. On that basis I think I didn't give it as much attention as I might normally.

Just an addition to the comments about the players not wanting to come out to thank the fans. I was there too and saw it differently. To me and all our group we felt they were just hugely embarrassed to come and receive out applause. I know they are thanking the fans but it seemed like they felt it was hard to face that large travelling support after such a performance.