Saracens
VODACOM BULLS v SARACENS: post match related comments here
By The Saracens
December 7 2023
Whatever your views about South African clubs taking part on the European Cup (and I guess if Australia can compete in the Eurovision Song Contest anything goes) Saracens will face the reality on the highveld on Saturday. Higher than the summit of Ben Nevis and warmer than the warmest British summer day, Pretoria’s Loftus Versfeld Stadium will host the first competitive meeting between the 2 clubs. Sarries flew south on Sunday to give themselves a chance to acclimatise (and why not enjoy a week in the sunshine?) before taking on the team that were the most successful franchise in South African Rugby.
Last season Bulls finished 6th in the United Rugby Championship and lost to DHL Stormers in the quarter finals. In 21/22 they also lost to Stormers in the final but claimed the notable scalp of Leinster at the RDS in the semi final. This season Bulls, like Sarries, are in 3rd place. In fact the 2 clubs have pretty similar records so far this season: Bulls have won 5 from 7 and have 25 points, Sarries have won 5 from 8 and have 25 points too. Bulls’ 2 defeats have both been away from home – to Ulster and Edinburgh. Loftus Versfeld is something of a fortress whereas Sarries have a decent away record this season, only losing to Exeter.
This is not the first time the clubs have met – back in 2015 Sarries hosted the (then) Blue Bulls in a friendly at Allianz Park which the South African side won 26-39 to take the Sanlam Challenge Shield. (Interesting note: the Sanlam Challenge was dreamt up as a competition between Saracens and South African opponents. Sarries played (and beat) Sharks and Western Province in 2014 but lost to Bulls in 2015 so technically I suppose, if Sarries win, they could reclaim the shield?) Ivan Van Zyl is a former Bulls player (a Blue Bull then I believe) so may have some inside knowledge.
The strange format of this competition means that the clubs meet just once, either home or away. It seems to me this gives a big advantage to teams like the Bulls who play at altitude and in a different climate with no opportunity for Sarries to gain revenge in an English winter. However it is what it is. (And of course another weird feature of this competition is that teams play 4 matches – and potentially travel thousands of miles – to eliminate 8 out of 24! In other words 4th place will be good enough to make the last 16!)
Before the start of the season Bulls recruited a number of players from the Northern hemisphere including Wilco Louw (from Quins), Jannes Kirsten (Exeter) Akker van der Merwe (Sale) Henry Immelman and Jaco van der Walt (Edinburgh) and former Wasp Willie le Roux. On paper, Bulls have a pretty formidable squad. Managed by DOR Jake White (former Springbok coach and world cup winner) they do of course have an impressive pack which Sarries forwards will need to counter if they are to have any success on Saturday. A front row of Gerhard Steenekamp, Akker Van der Merwe and Wilco Louw doesn’t fill me with confidence! Bulls had 4 players in the victorious Springboks’ world cup squad: backs Canan Moodie, Kurt-Lee Arendse & Willie Le Roux and forward Marco Van Staden
Bulls are likely to be without Johan Grobbelaar and Ruan Nortje due to injury and Marcell Coetzee due to suspension. Ruan Vermaak, Johan Goosen and Cameron Hanekom all missed last week’s win over Hollywoodbets Sharks but may be available this week.
After an uninspiring performance in the freezing fog last Saturday, we must hope the South African sunshine will revitalise our Saracens. Owen should be back alongside Van Zyl. I assume Tompkins, having battled through this far, will get the chance to play in the sun probably alongside Daly who was rested last week. Alex Goode, Alex Lewington and Tom Parton will probably complete the backs. As for the forwards: injuries have impacted on our tight 5 (although I see we have Mulipola on short term loan) so I assume it will be Mako, Jamie and Alec Cleary to start with Maro and maybe Theo at lock and Gonzalez, Christie and Billy. A similar line-up to last week but Mark McCall isn’t usually one for sweeping changes and a team which underperformed is often given the chance to make amends the following week (which it often does). The conditions will almost certainly dictate the full deployment of subs so the “finishers” could well be just as important as the “starters”. Sadly injury has denied Sarries their own version of the “Bomb Squad” almost before it started – the stand in bomb squad will need to be on high explosives.
Jake White has gone on record as saying he wants his team to play at high tempo. That’s a no brainer in hot, high Lotus Versfeld against an English team who, despite their fitness levels, are going to struggle in those conditions. Bulls regularly score tries from the set piece but also from first phase attack so Sarries will need to be on their toes from the kick off.
Mark McCall said “We’ve come here to win, and I felt something different in the group. They feel like they are in a different spot to where they’ve been the last few weeks. Our performances have been underwhelming to be honest, but we’re going to give it a real go against the Bulls this weekend”.
Our team of officials come from Italy and France. Referee Andrea Piardi (Ita) is assisted by Benoit Rousselet (Fra) & Filippo Russo (Ita). TMO is Eric Gauzens (Fra) & Citing Commissioner: Wejdane Limame (Fra). The game is on TV (TNT, 5.30pm) for those of you (like me) who haven’t made the trip. This is a huge task for our boys but they do like a challenge and maybe, just maybe, they’ll feel they have something to prove after last weekend. There couldn’t be a better time or place to do just that.
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StumbleuponVODACOM BULLS v SARACENS: post match related comments here
Discussion started by TheSaracens.com , 07/12/2023 12:06
TheSaracens.com
07/12/2023 12:06
07/12/2023 12:06
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:18:20:21:35 by Darraghgirl.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:18:20:21:35 by Darraghgirl.
I’m over to watch the game and the stadium is right next to the hotel, players are staying here too and seem to be looking forward to the challenge!
It’s supposed to turn showery at the weekend.
I do prefer the format of playing 4 different teams even though this is an incredibly difficult assignment. It does give you a chance to put it right in the other 3 games.
It’s supposed to turn showery at the weekend.
I do prefer the format of playing 4 different teams even though this is an incredibly difficult assignment. It does give you a chance to put it right in the other 3 games.
Have a great trip the Bard.
Struggling to get into it this year with the ridiculous pools and format. Mostly hoping the team don't have any injury issues as a result.
Struggling to get into it this year with the ridiculous pools and format. Mostly hoping the team don't have any injury issues as a result.
But I’m far happier playing both Bordeaux and Lyon than only one of them. It’s never going to be a perfect format, but looking at the winners list suggests the best team usually wins!
Saracens Men team to play Vodacom Bulls:
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Alec Clarey
4 Maro Itoje
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Andy Christie
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan Van Zyl
10 Owen Farrell (C)
11 Sean Maitland
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Elliot Daly
14 Alex Lewington
15 Alex Goode
Replacements:
16 Theo Dan
17 Tom West
18 Christian Judge
19 Theo McFarland
20 Toby Knight
21 Aled Davies
22 Olly Hartley
23 Lucio Cinti
Players Unavailable:
Eroni Mawi, Alex Lozowski, Ben Earl, Callum Hunter-Hill, Josh Hallett, Marco Riccioni, Nick Isiekwe, Ollie Hoskins, Ralph Adams-Hale, Rotimi Segun, Tom Willis, Tom Woolstencroft.
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Jamie George
3 Alec Clarey
4 Maro Itoje
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Juan Martin Gonzalez
7 Andy Christie
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan Van Zyl
10 Owen Farrell (C)
11 Sean Maitland
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Elliot Daly
14 Alex Lewington
15 Alex Goode
Replacements:
16 Theo Dan
17 Tom West
18 Christian Judge
19 Theo McFarland
20 Toby Knight
21 Aled Davies
22 Olly Hartley
23 Lucio Cinti
Players Unavailable:
Eroni Mawi, Alex Lozowski, Ben Earl, Callum Hunter-Hill, Josh Hallett, Marco Riccioni, Nick Isiekwe, Ollie Hoskins, Ralph Adams-Hale, Rotimi Segun, Tom Willis, Tom Woolstencroft.
VODACOM BULLS vs SARACENS STARTING XV:
1. Gerhard Steenekamp,
2. Akker van der Merwe,
3. Wilco Louw,
4. Ruan Vermaak,
5. Reinhardt Ludwig,
6. Marco van Staden,
7. Elrigh Louw (c),
8. Cameron Hanekom,
9. Embrose Papier,
10. Johan Goosen,
11. Canan Moodie,
12. David Kriel,
13. Stedman Gans,
14. Kurt-Lee Arendse,
15. Willie le Roux
VODACOM BULLS IMPACT SQUAD:
16. Simphiwe Matanzima,
17. Jan-Hendrik Wessels,
18. Mornay Smith,
19. Janko Swanepoel,
20. Marcell Coetzee,
21. Zak Burger, 22.
Jaco van der Walt,
23. Sergeal Petersen
1. Gerhard Steenekamp,
2. Akker van der Merwe,
3. Wilco Louw,
4. Ruan Vermaak,
5. Reinhardt Ludwig,
6. Marco van Staden,
7. Elrigh Louw (c),
8. Cameron Hanekom,
9. Embrose Papier,
10. Johan Goosen,
11. Canan Moodie,
12. David Kriel,
13. Stedman Gans,
14. Kurt-Lee Arendse,
15. Willie le Roux
VODACOM BULLS IMPACT SQUAD:
16. Simphiwe Matanzima,
17. Jan-Hendrik Wessels,
18. Mornay Smith,
19. Janko Swanepoel,
20. Marcell Coetzee,
21. Zak Burger, 22.
Jaco van der Walt,
23. Sergeal Petersen
Good strong team from us, but we will need it as Bulls are going to be on the rampage.
Hope Daly has his streamlined boots for those super long kicks in the thin atmosphere
Hope Daly has his streamlined boots for those super long kicks in the thin atmosphere
The 20 minute video interview with Jamie on Rugbypass is a must watch (the ten minute one with Maro is good too, but he's a bit less direct).
Thanks for highlighting the interviews NED. Both were excellent. Maro subtly advertising his excellent Pearl Fund charity and speaking well. However, Jamie gave a compelling interview for the England captain's job imho.
Quote:Sarriebone
BS decision, that's never a penalty let alone a yellow
Agree Sarriebone, ridiculous decision! I know they’ve had a couple disallowed (rightly) but not getting the rub of the green. Mind you, we’ve done nothing in attack - worrying.
Not a lot to interest the neutral in this match so far. If it wasnt Sarries I’d be turning the channel over.
They have been lucky not to concede more tries. 2 Yellows not good either though ALex’s was very dubious. Some look slow, Clarey especially, maybe the heat and altitude?
2nd half starting as error prone as the 1st!
We’ve been lucky so far the Bulls dont know how to pass!
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:18:42:07 by maynas.
They have been lucky not to concede more tries. 2 Yellows not good either though ALex’s was very dubious. Some look slow, Clarey especially, maybe the heat and altitude?
2nd half starting as error prone as the 1st!
We’ve been lucky so far the Bulls dont know how to pass!
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:18:42:07 by maynas.
Travelling down to SA to play at over 1000 feet altitude at 30c with a weeks turnaround is looking a bit absurd right now. Glad we got that tier 1 draw!
The speed of the South African back three is outrageous, shouldn't be allowed
I think altitude has had more impact on decision making than lungs so far.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:18:56:55 by siNBin.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:18:56:55 by siNBin.
A little bit of fighting spirit after Billy was sent off at least gave the final score line a touch of respectability and stopped Bulls getting a bonus point. Other than that I am struggling to think of any positives. On that sort of performance we don’t look like serious contenders for the Cup.
The positives for me were being the better team when we were down to 14 and the fight when that far behind and knackered was heartening. Dan was also superb. A lot of tired looking lads at the moment without any break coming up and too many injuries to rotate meaningfully.
Agreed Dan was a force of nature again. Christie toiled away as ever. I thought both scrum halfs did pretty well. Billy is not having the best of times at the moment. Not getting over the gainline and giving away a lot of penalties.
And to be honest given the circumstances I don’t think we were ever likely to win that so keeping the score as it was wasn’t a bad effort. Almost could have nicked a LBP at the end if it wasn’t for a poor knock on from Toby Knight under little pressure.
I thought Goode was unfortunate but turning your back is never a good look as the rotation makes it look like an obstructive move across. The same with Billy. I thought the Bulls 8 milked it as the contact seemed glancing rather than thunderous.
However generally I think the comment I made to OM last season that many of your golden generation were beginning to show signs of having plateaued if not being on the downward slope is correct. That’s so even though in terms of international members of your squad you appear to have more capped players than any other club.
I thought that Maitland now looks awfully slow, and Daley looked uninterested in the physical stuff despite his try. And his strop about the pass that faded at his feet was worthy of a real bollocking from OF.
I still think you will win the Prem but a major rebuild will then be needed.
However generally I think the comment I made to OM last season that many of your golden generation were beginning to show signs of having plateaued if not being on the downward slope is correct. That’s so even though in terms of international members of your squad you appear to have more capped players than any other club.
I thought that Maitland now looks awfully slow, and Daley looked uninterested in the physical stuff despite his try. And his strop about the pass that faded at his feet was worthy of a real bollocking from OF.
I still think you will win the Prem but a major rebuild will then be needed.
A big caveat that I only caught the game from Billy card onwards.
Proud of the team effort beyond that point, restricting a very good Bulls side to just the points scored to that point and no TBP was good. A LBP definitely felt like it went begging though which would have been a good result based on playing a man down over half the match.
Thats the rub though. You can't expect to play with that lack of discipline and win. Several dumb penalties in the time I watched handing back prime attacking chances.
Feels like a lot to work on. I do fear with how many injuries we have we'd be better writing the ERCC off than risking even more but I appreciate the coaches and team gave a different mindset.
Hartley was a major plus when he came on. If Daly had been half as good maybe he'd have had the brains to come infield and make the pass easier rather than keep a width that was unnecessary with a player outside him.
Ho-hum.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:21:15:43 by OldMarovian.
Proud of the team effort beyond that point, restricting a very good Bulls side to just the points scored to that point and no TBP was good. A LBP definitely felt like it went begging though which would have been a good result based on playing a man down over half the match.
Thats the rub though. You can't expect to play with that lack of discipline and win. Several dumb penalties in the time I watched handing back prime attacking chances.
Feels like a lot to work on. I do fear with how many injuries we have we'd be better writing the ERCC off than risking even more but I appreciate the coaches and team gave a different mindset.
Hartley was a major plus when he came on. If Daly had been half as good maybe he'd have had the brains to come infield and make the pass easier rather than keep a width that was unnecessary with a player outside him.
Ho-hum.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:21:15:43 by OldMarovian.
The players we had missing - Mawi, Isiekwe, Earl, Hunter-Hill, Riccioni and Willis are all young and featured (with the exception of Willis) in the prem final. Add in Christie, Dan and Tizard to that and the pack actually has quite a young average age. While we have a golden generation leaving/ageing, the rebuild is underway and many of those youngsters are big pets of the pack already. The backs are a different story but there will be plenty of cap space if the youngsters coming through don’t cut the mustard.
Daly was good throughout. It was always going to be an uphill struggle. The only Saracens player I didn't hear mentioned was Lewington but that doesn't mean anything as the only Bulls player I didn't hear mentioned was the No 8 who was player of the match.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Agree TK and that's the view I've shared eith Debenair before. Whilst we're not raiding other clubs Academies and the nurseries of Wales like Chiefs 
we have younger players coming through well in most positions where more senior, golden generation types, are nearing the end of their careers.
No idea if possible but keeping JMK and Cinti would be great in that regard and for me we have obvioys players to move on to make that cap space.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:21:22:23 by OldMarovian.
we have younger players coming through well in most positions where more senior, golden generation types, are nearing the end of their careers.
No idea if possible but keeping JMK and Cinti would be great in that regard and for me we have obvioys players to move on to make that cap space.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:09:21:22:23 by OldMarovian.
It is surely right that the golden generation is fading fast. We have the make up of a younger team, but will they ever get a gig?
Maitland has been a great servant to us, but he is slow. Mako and Billy won’t stop trying, but are they are as effective has they were 5-6 years ago? Not close. Is Jamie really a better option now than Theo? Goode is 5 yards off the pace, let alone one.
My concern atm is that I can’t see the coaches being brave enough to move away from the guys who have brought us so much success. We do need a bit of pace, and a bit of devil. But where is it coming from?
Maitland has been a great servant to us, but he is slow. Mako and Billy won’t stop trying, but are they are as effective has they were 5-6 years ago? Not close. Is Jamie really a better option now than Theo? Goode is 5 yards off the pace, let alone one.
My concern atm is that I can’t see the coaches being brave enough to move away from the guys who have brought us so much success. We do need a bit of pace, and a bit of devil. But where is it coming from?
Is Jamie a better option than Theo? Yes.
Goodes experience can be balanced with the pairings at wing.
Hard to know if Segun and Harris had been injured less if they'd have been backed more but the longer term contract for Segun suggests he is rated highly.
Hartley feels like he is improving, from a strong base, by the game.
Agree about more pace in the back three. Partons speed there is a noticeable plus.
As for if the coaches are "brave" enough I'm sure they have a plan and tbh it feels like they're fighting fires quite a bit right now.
Pair Hartley and Cinti together outside Farrell and IVZ for Connacht. Daly to FB. Parton to one wing and Lewington or a fit Segun/Harris if either are an option maybe?
For all that's Holy give Tompkins a break
Goodes experience can be balanced with the pairings at wing.
Hard to know if Segun and Harris had been injured less if they'd have been backed more but the longer term contract for Segun suggests he is rated highly.
Hartley feels like he is improving, from a strong base, by the game.
Agree about more pace in the back three. Partons speed there is a noticeable plus.
As for if the coaches are "brave" enough I'm sure they have a plan and tbh it feels like they're fighting fires quite a bit right now.
Pair Hartley and Cinti together outside Farrell and IVZ for Connacht. Daly to FB. Parton to one wing and Lewington or a fit Segun/Harris if either are an option maybe?
For all that's Holy give Tompkins a break
Jamie George has just finished a World Cup where he was so indispensable he was playing 80 mins regularly, Dan is great but still has a lot to learn (let’s not forget he was at Ampthill this time last year) in the set piece- George starting with Dan off the bench is more than fine for now.
Mako and Billy I suspect will be moved on steadily now. Mawi and Willis are looking like better options but don’t underestimate what the Vunipola’s still bring to the table. Goode is only starting because of injuries, if we had Loz fit then Daly would likely be starting at full back where he has been miles more effective for us and key to the attacking change.
Mako and Billy I suspect will be moved on steadily now. Mawi and Willis are looking like better options but don’t underestimate what the Vunipola’s still bring to the table. Goode is only starting because of injuries, if we had Loz fit then Daly would likely be starting at full back where he has been miles more effective for us and key to the attacking change.
I think some of the more “experienced” players probably struggled with the travel and altitude and the young guns showed that their younger age and lungs were a bonus in those conditions.
We showed some fight when down to 14 which I applaud. I would like to see us with some more pace in the back 3 - they took our quickest player off (Lewi), not sure why, he made an excellent backtracking tackle in the first half and Sean hadn’t been in the game at all. Although they scored a try from the move, a great tap tackle by Faz when most would’ve given up. Cinti also looked lively when he came on.
I’d like to see little Theo start next week, he offered some excellent running and determination today. Hope Tom W is back from injury, we could do with him with Billy being banned. Billy has been a great servant for us, but I hear rumours of us offering an extension to his contract. Tbh I would really like us to save that large salary and spend it on a top class winger next season.
Well played bulls, they looked excellent in attack in first 50 minutes, but glad we denied them a tbp. Shame to see such a sparse crowd, though.
We showed some fight when down to 14 which I applaud. I would like to see us with some more pace in the back 3 - they took our quickest player off (Lewi), not sure why, he made an excellent backtracking tackle in the first half and Sean hadn’t been in the game at all. Although they scored a try from the move, a great tap tackle by Faz when most would’ve given up. Cinti also looked lively when he came on.
I’d like to see little Theo start next week, he offered some excellent running and determination today. Hope Tom W is back from injury, we could do with him with Billy being banned. Billy has been a great servant for us, but I hear rumours of us offering an extension to his contract. Tbh I would really like us to save that large salary and spend it on a top class winger next season.
Well played bulls, they looked excellent in attack in first 50 minutes, but glad we denied them a tbp. Shame to see such a sparse crowd, though.
Most were in the stands on the tunnel side,but it is a very big stadium and SA play Ireland there in the summer.
There difference in pace between the teams was startling and how we stayed in the game i have no idea. It is going to be a very tough few weeks for us as Bordeaux looked excellent, Sale and Leicester away too
There difference in pace between the teams was startling and how we stayed in the game i have no idea. It is going to be a very tough few weeks for us as Bordeaux looked excellent, Sale and Leicester away too
Apart from a horrendous injury list, the tiredness and probably niggles the 11 internationals must be carrying, Faz’s issues, the club have to travel 24000 miles in a week, the temperature change, the team now have to get through to a break in February.
The funds from the central contracts must be allowed to sit above the salary cap, so that the top players can be properly rested.
The funds from the central contracts must be allowed to sit above the salary cap, so that the top players can be properly rested.
I honestly wasn't expecting a result in our favour in this game, but I was surprised by a couple of points.
Our scrum was not in fact totally marmalised as I expected. They held up pretty well in the circumstances.
As commented elsewhere, we really lacked pace. Theo Dan looked to be the quickest in the side which while a credit to him is a bit of a concern overall.
Our scrum was not in fact totally marmalised as I expected. They held up pretty well in the circumstances.
As commented elsewhere, we really lacked pace. Theo Dan looked to be the quickest in the side which while a credit to him is a bit of a concern overall.
"There difference in pace between the teams was startling and how we stayed in the game i have no idea."
They were playing so quickly that they knocked on or passed forward. Was it three tries they had disallowed?
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
They were playing so quickly that they knocked on or passed forward. Was it three tries they had disallowed?
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Tigers fan here. Wonder if in retrospect Sarries might have considered taking a weakened team to the Bulls, as Stormers are doing in reverse v. our lot. A lot of travel, a hard opponent plus the altitude all stack up and will have an impact over the next few weeks...???
Quote:AP
"There difference in pace between the teams was startling and how we stayed in the game i have no idea."
They were playing so quickly that they knocked on or passed forward. Was it three tries they had disallowed?
Good job Hodders wasn’t on TMO.
Quote:OldMarovian
As for if the coaches are "brave" enough I'm sure they have a plan and tbh it feels like they're fighting fires quite a bit right now.
It’s a lack of pace, and a lack of punch.
That’s a couple of games in a row where defences have looked comfortable against us. Our maul and the odd grubber got us the win against Bristol, we didn’t really trouble Saints, we didn’t really trouble Bulls until the last few minutes.
A “brave” call would be to recognise that without Ben Earl our forwards look like they lack gain line winners - Dan offers that in a way Jamie doesn’t; or would be to recognise we have a very slow backline - Ben Harris might make mistakes and be caught out of position, but give him two or three games ahead of Maitland to try and inject pace; or to make the call that Billy Vunipola probably isn’t as effective as the other options we have in his position any more; or to play Daly at 15 and leave Goode out - Lozowski may not be fit, but Hartley and Cinti are.
To move away from the players that have brought us so much success, and who deserve so much respect, is brave. From my seat, I think it might be necessary though. We had a great performance away at Quins, other than that I don’t think it’s too controversial to say we’ve been struggling for form. Yes, the World Cup and tiredness will be big factors in that, but that’s just a reality they have to live with.
Well Parton would be my choice to come in, he’s looked very effective on the wing in recent weeks.
Wolfpack agree with some of that but also feel your post maybe fails to acknowledge some of the realities.
The centres aside you talk about putting in options in Segun, Harris, even Willis who have been, still are in some cases, out injured so weren't options.
Its also tough to compare our almost full strength side put out v Quins and the one of this past weekend and not hugely caveat the performance on that basis IMO.
Equally Bulls are probably one of the better fancied teams playing at home with an almost full squad and backs who make International, let alone club, backs look slow.
I think where I am with you is in feeling we are better served with Daly at FB than 13 and equally that Goode can pwrform a very valuable role from the bench. The reality though once Goode was given a two year deal (IMO) is that he was going to be starting. In that regard I think you're right that the balance of experience and up and commers maybe needs tinkering?
Tompkins needs a break but I would really have liked to see Hartley given a run with Tompkins at 13 which looked great when we tried it. That said I can understand trying to get Dalys experience in at 13 even if I don't think it actually works that well.
For me, and it may be perception rather than reality, but bit feels with anything but close to our full squad we play quite conservatively and within ourselves. Tbh that's the biggest change I'd like to see. That and not kicking long and loose to talented quick backfield runners.
The centres aside you talk about putting in options in Segun, Harris, even Willis who have been, still are in some cases, out injured so weren't options.
Its also tough to compare our almost full strength side put out v Quins and the one of this past weekend and not hugely caveat the performance on that basis IMO.
Equally Bulls are probably one of the better fancied teams playing at home with an almost full squad and backs who make International, let alone club, backs look slow.
I think where I am with you is in feeling we are better served with Daly at FB than 13 and equally that Goode can pwrform a very valuable role from the bench. The reality though once Goode was given a two year deal (IMO) is that he was going to be starting. In that regard I think you're right that the balance of experience and up and commers maybe needs tinkering?
Tompkins needs a break but I would really have liked to see Hartley given a run with Tompkins at 13 which looked great when we tried it. That said I can understand trying to get Dalys experience in at 13 even if I don't think it actually works that well.
For me, and it may be perception rather than reality, but bit feels with anything but close to our full squad we play quite conservatively and within ourselves. Tbh that's the biggest change I'd like to see. That and not kicking long and loose to talented quick backfield runners.
Quote:OldMarovian
For me, and it may be perception rather than reality, but bit feels with anything but close to our full squad we play quite conservatively and within ourselves. Tbh that's the biggest change I'd like to see. That and not kicking long and loose to talented quick backfield runners.
I entirely agree with this, and I think this is reality rather than perception.
I recognise we have a long old injury list, but even with players available there are options - eg Cinti at 13 to allow Daly to play 15. Parton is available, played well last few weeks… out the squad so Maitland can go the wing etc.
Again, not having a go at any of these guys who never do less than their damndest, but I feel we could be more aggressive in both selection and mindset than we’re being at the moment.
Just one observation from this weekend. Saracens were the only English team to lose in a European cup tie. Although we could have hoped for a Sarries win, it was not an unexpected result, but on the other hand, it would have been long odds on Sarries been the only one to come second. Good weekend for premiership in reality. Hoping for a better result next week.
Quins is the big result for me.
Lots of weakened teams sent away. Tigers got a good win against a Stormers thirds for example.
As you say though good results for the "weakest" League@
Lots of weakened teams sent away. Tigers got a good win against a Stormers thirds for example.
As you say though good results for the "weakest" League@
Best teams I saw this weekend were Leinster, La Rochelle and Toulouse, who’s dismemberment of Cardiff was spectacular to watch. I suspect the eventual winner will be one of those 3
Other than the Bulls, Bordeaux were the best I saw who easily beat Connacht away despite not being full strength. We are going to find it desperately hard to proceed
Lyon scored 34 points away too, although maybe they’ll lose interest by the third round.
OM: "I think where I am with you is in feeling we are better served with Daly at FB than 13 and equally that Goode can pwrform a very valuable role from the bench. The reality though once Goode was given a two year deal (IMO) is that he was going to be starting. In that regard I think you're right that the balance of experience and up and commers maybe needs tinkering?"
I don't see any merit in having Alex on the bench unless there's no-one else available for the 23 who can back up at 10. He's still one of my all-time favourite players but when he plays, he has to wear the 15 shirt. All things being equal, he would be rotating with Daly who presumably will have a few more rest weeks scheduled as an international.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
I don't see any merit in having Alex on the bench unless there's no-one else available for the 23 who can back up at 10. He's still one of my all-time favourite players but when he plays, he has to wear the 15 shirt. All things being equal, he would be rotating with Daly who presumably will have a few more rest weeks scheduled as an international.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Rotation of quality players is never a bad thing AP.
A player of experience who can cover FB and 10 from the bench is no bad thing IMO.
I do think we needs more pace in the vack three especially, based on this past weekend, with how much teams are kicking over and through the blitz. Ofc you need rugby intelligence too.
I think a big thing is to view the 23 as a whole. Too often, especially when there are injuries ofc, there is quite a drop when the bench comes on. A big positive of having not only young turks but also old heads is that we should be able to balance that bench with experience.
A player of experience who can cover FB and 10 from the bench is no bad thing IMO.
I do think we needs more pace in the vack three especially, based on this past weekend, with how much teams are kicking over and through the blitz. Ofc you need rugby intelligence too.
I think a big thing is to view the 23 as a whole. Too often, especially when there are injuries ofc, there is quite a drop when the bench comes on. A big positive of having not only young turks but also old heads is that we should be able to balance that bench with experience.
Still can't understand why South African teams have been allowed to play in the European Champions cup. When did South Africa become a part of Europe.
I agree with that - makes the structure of the comp incomprehensible and the whole thing far less interesting.
I agree with that - makes the structure of the comp incomprehensible and the whole thing far less interesting.
Quote:lechef
Still can't understand why South African teams have been allowed to play in the European Champions cup. When did South Africa become a part of Europe.
As they are now allowed into the URC they can qualify for this tournament.
Either that or $$$$$$$
Quote:lechef
Still can't understand why South African teams have been allowed to play in the European Champions cup. When did South Africa become a part of Europe.
💯
Think EPCR saw the 💰💰from extra sponsorship without considering the logistics!
all started with URC needing the cash and eyes, they coudnt not accept that offer and that started the stone rolling...
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!
Quote:AP
They were playing so quickly that they knocked on or passed forward. Was it three tries they had disallowed?
Indeed, it was three. Two were forward passes that were so egregious that it was disgraceful that the ref missed them, gave the tries and then had to be brought into line by the TMO. For heaven's sake, Arendse was even standing offside in front of the passer when he was passed the ball for that one.
The other was for foot in touch which I am pretty sure the Asst Ref signalled but the Ref ignored. Again the TMO had to intervene to turn the try over.
What are we expecting for Connacht?
Given the Premiership games coming up I hope it's rest and rotation.
Any injured players due back?
I'd also like to see Hartley and Cinti in the centres.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:11:18:11:14 by OldMarovian.
Given the Premiership games coming up I hope it's rest and rotation.
Any injured players due back?
I'd also like to see Hartley and Cinti in the centres.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:11:18:11:14 by OldMarovian.
We need 5 points otherwise realistically it’s already curtains in the competition. I think it’s likely we go full noise this weekend, and chuck Sale away on Friday.
I think you might be right but that would be a Shane IMO.
The game v Sale feels like its worth fighting for, like away at Quins was, I just can't see Sarries being able to compete in the ERCC finals so to a degree, what's the point?
The game v Sale feels like its worth fighting for, like away at Quins was, I just can't see Sarries being able to compete in the ERCC finals so to a degree, what's the point?
Tbh I'd rather we focussed on going back to back in the Prem. CC holds no excitement for me at all these days
Agree SB.
If we had this current squad fully fit for most of the season I'd want us to go for it but half way through with our starting props and 13 out long term plus numerous other injuries and obviously knackered Internationals and it seems like risking a lot to compete hard in the ERCC.
If we had this current squad fully fit for most of the season I'd want us to go for it but half way through with our starting props and 13 out long term plus numerous other injuries and obviously knackered Internationals and it seems like risking a lot to compete hard in the ERCC.
Shame Europe's not working for some. For me there were some cracking games this weekend and great to see Premiership clubs do so well.
While the practical difficulties of having/facing the SA teams are significant, it was excitintg to see us with a new challenge (albeit -agreed that it's hard to see how the competition continues with the Saffas without a major reorganisation -local pool with one of them advancing?)
After Round one we have a match with real meaning this Saturday and fingers crossed we have a full squad to see if we are competitive with the "big beasts" in the knockout stages (toes crossed we get there).
Plenty to like so far and I'm enjoying it
While the practical difficulties of having/facing the SA teams are significant, it was excitintg to see us with a new challenge (albeit -agreed that it's hard to see how the competition continues with the Saffas without a major reorganisation -local pool with one of them advancing?)
After Round one we have a match with real meaning this Saturday and fingers crossed we have a full squad to see if we are competitive with the "big beasts" in the knockout stages (toes crossed we get there).
Plenty to like so far and I'm enjoying it
I cannot believe people saying they’d rather win Prem. Surely with that CC at Tottenham that has to be the main aim!? Leicester won over 10 premierships in their hay day only 2 CC, I bet they would trade a few of those premierships for another CC or 2. Good teams win the prem, great teams win the CC. I bet the players want just as much if not more than the prem
I'm probably too pessimistic but I can't remember a recent season when we've had such bad injuries including long term ones at this stage in the season. It just has all the feeling of trying to fight on two fronts and ending up missing out on both. Hope I'm wrong and still totally back the coaches and players just feels a herculean task this season.
Quote:Sarriebone
CC holds no excitement for me at all these days
That has to be wrong (for me anyway) if we progress, but I fully agree the pool stage lacks something. I certainly miss the home and away feature which we had unti recently.
Quote:OldMarovian
What are we expecting for Connacht?
Given the Premiership games coming up I hope it's rest and rotation.
Any injured players due back?
I'd also like to see Hartley and Cinti in the centres.
With the injuries we have, who can actually be rested/rotated? We have most of our props out, maybe Pifeleti in for George. Is Isiekwe fit again? If so Maro could get a rest. Billy will likely have an enforced rest but a backrow is pretty bare unless Willis is fit. Tompkins needs to rest, maybe a Hartley/Cinti midfield combo but I worry about our defence with a youngster at 12 and new boy at 13.
Are our injuries so bad though? There are a fair few out but we have a big squad. Certainly we have missed Earl but assume he is back soon. I am also assuming Willis’s injury is not too severe. Loz is definitely a miss. The prop situation is the most critical but are our injured props so much better than the available ones? We have two world class hookers fit and available (for now). Fact is Goode is probably starting even with a full squad which wouldn’t have been the case 4 years ago and that is down to the pressures of the salary cap not injuries.
They are bad in the sense that rest and rotation isn’t really possible in any meaningful sense. Yes you can put players on the bench but it doesn’t give them proper rest.
Injuries from last week
Adams-Hale
Mawi
Woolstencroft
Pifeleti (?)
Hoskins
Riccioni
Isiekwe
Hunter-Hill
Earl
Willis
Lozowski
Hallett
Segun
Add Billy to the list and the forwards are a bit threadbare. Also one of the world class hookers has been playing 80 mins test matches for a while now and has barely had a rest since the World Cup, much like Maro. I’m also not sure Goode would be a guaranteed starter, possibly with Malins gone but I’d be surprised if Daly wasn’t starting at 15 for the big matches if Loz was still fit.
Injuries from last week
Adams-Hale
Mawi
Woolstencroft
Pifeleti (?)
Hoskins
Riccioni
Isiekwe
Hunter-Hill
Earl
Willis
Lozowski
Hallett
Segun
Add Billy to the list and the forwards are a bit threadbare. Also one of the world class hookers has been playing 80 mins test matches for a while now and has barely had a rest since the World Cup, much like Maro. I’m also not sure Goode would be a guaranteed starter, possibly with Malins gone but I’d be surprised if Daly wasn’t starting at 15 for the big matches if Loz was still fit.
Both Mawi and Riccioni described as long term to go with Lozo. Are those props much better than those they replace? Yes 100% IIMO and significantly so.
We know the continual injury issues with Woolstencroft and RAH, will we see them again this season? West and Hoskins should have bolstered our scrum but have barely been available. Add in knackered Internationals and our lock injuries and I think it looks tough.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:13:09:19:51 by OldMarovian.
We know the continual injury issues with Woolstencroft and RAH, will we see them again this season? West and Hoskins should have bolstered our scrum but have barely been available. Add in knackered Internationals and our lock injuries and I think it looks tough.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023:12:13:09:19:51 by OldMarovian.
Latest injury update today:
HERE IS OUR LATEST INJURY UPDATE AS WE APPROACH THE FESTIVE PERIOD.
Alex Lozowski
Had successful surgery on an ACL injury and is starting the rehabilitation process.
Ben Earl
Is looking to return in the next month after recovering from a minor knee operation.
Eroni Mawi
Will be out for around three months with a calf injury.
Josh Hallett
Is still recovering from foot surgery and aiming to return around Christmas.
Callum Hunter-Hill
Had surgery on a knee injury and is expected to be out until March.
Marco Riccioni
Out for around 12 weeks with a neck injury. Is hoping to return in time for the Six Nations.
Nick Isiekwe
Is back in training and could return in the next fortnight.
Ollie Hoskins
Due to return imminently after recovering from a broken thumb.
Ralph Adams-Hale
Injured his shoulder and is continuing his rehabilitation.
Rotimi Segun
Due to return imminently after recovering from a hamstring injury.
Tom Willis
Had minor surgery on a knee injury and will be out for around three months.
Tom Woolstencroft
Completing his return to play protocols.
HERE IS OUR LATEST INJURY UPDATE AS WE APPROACH THE FESTIVE PERIOD.
Alex Lozowski
Had successful surgery on an ACL injury and is starting the rehabilitation process.
Ben Earl
Is looking to return in the next month after recovering from a minor knee operation.
Eroni Mawi
Will be out for around three months with a calf injury.
Josh Hallett
Is still recovering from foot surgery and aiming to return around Christmas.
Callum Hunter-Hill
Had surgery on a knee injury and is expected to be out until March.
Marco Riccioni
Out for around 12 weeks with a neck injury. Is hoping to return in time for the Six Nations.
Nick Isiekwe
Is back in training and could return in the next fortnight.
Ollie Hoskins
Due to return imminently after recovering from a broken thumb.
Ralph Adams-Hale
Injured his shoulder and is continuing his rehabilitation.
Rotimi Segun
Due to return imminently after recovering from a hamstring injury.
Tom Willis
Had minor surgery on a knee injury and will be out for around three months.
Tom Woolstencroft
Completing his return to play protocols.
Terribly timing for Willis to be injured- Billy likely to have a long suspension and out for most of the six nations.
𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗜𝗣𝗟𝗜𝗡𝗔𝗥𝗬 𝗢𝗨𝗧𝗖𝗢𝗠𝗘.
@bvunipola
has had his red card against the Bulls overturned.
He is therefore free to play immediately.
@bvunipola
has had his red card against the Bulls overturned.
He is therefore free to play immediately.
Quote:Sarriebone
𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗜𝗣𝗟𝗜𝗡𝗔𝗥𝗬 𝗢𝗨𝗧𝗖𝗢𝗠𝗘.
@bvunipola
has had his red card against the Bulls overturned.
He is therefore free to play immediately.
Sorry, I should have read this before my post on the other thread!
A nice healthy slice of good news amongst the injury gloom.
EPCR:
Billy Vunipola red card decision overturned
The Saracens No 8, Billy Vunipola, has had his red card overturned following an independent Disciplinary Hearing arising from his club’s Investec Champions Cup, Round 1 match against the Vodacom Bulls at Loftus Versfeld.
Vunipola was sent off by the referee, Andrea Piardi (Italy), in the 52nd minute of the match for a dangerous strike to the head area of the Vodacom Bulls No 8, Cameron Hanekom, in contravention of Law 9.12 and Law 9.11.
Law 9.12 Physical abuse of an opponent – punching or striking with hand, arm, elbow or shoulder
Under World Rugby’s Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 9.12 relating to striking with the hand, arm, elbow or shoulder carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-range: 6 weeks; Top end: 10 to 52 weeks
Law 9.11 Reckless or dangerous play – leading with the elbow or forearm
Under World Rugby’s Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 9.11 relating to dangerous play carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-range: 6 weeks; Top end: 10 to 52 weeks
An independent Disciplinary Committee comprising Jennifer Donovan (Ireland), Chair, Tony Wheat (Ireland) and Valeriu Toma (Romania), viewed footage of the incident and heard evidence by video conference from Vunipola, who accepted that he had committed an act of foul play but did not accept that it warranted a red card.
The committee also heard submissions from the Saracens Director of Rugby, Mark McCall, from the Saracens Team Manager, Warrick Lang, and from the EPCR Disciplinary Officer, Liam McTiernan.
The committee determined that Vunipola had committed an act of foul play, however, it decided that there was insufficient force in the contact to Hanekom’s head to warrant a red card, and the red card was therefore overturned.
Vunipola is free to play immediately and EPCR has the right to appeal the decision.
Billy Vunipola red card decision overturned
The Saracens No 8, Billy Vunipola, has had his red card overturned following an independent Disciplinary Hearing arising from his club’s Investec Champions Cup, Round 1 match against the Vodacom Bulls at Loftus Versfeld.
Vunipola was sent off by the referee, Andrea Piardi (Italy), in the 52nd minute of the match for a dangerous strike to the head area of the Vodacom Bulls No 8, Cameron Hanekom, in contravention of Law 9.12 and Law 9.11.
Law 9.12 Physical abuse of an opponent – punching or striking with hand, arm, elbow or shoulder
Under World Rugby’s Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 9.12 relating to striking with the hand, arm, elbow or shoulder carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-range: 6 weeks; Top end: 10 to 52 weeks
Law 9.11 Reckless or dangerous play – leading with the elbow or forearm
Under World Rugby’s Sanctions for Foul Play, Law 9.11 relating to dangerous play carries the following sanction entry points - Low End: 2 weeks; Mid-range: 6 weeks; Top end: 10 to 52 weeks
An independent Disciplinary Committee comprising Jennifer Donovan (Ireland), Chair, Tony Wheat (Ireland) and Valeriu Toma (Romania), viewed footage of the incident and heard evidence by video conference from Vunipola, who accepted that he had committed an act of foul play but did not accept that it warranted a red card.
The committee also heard submissions from the Saracens Director of Rugby, Mark McCall, from the Saracens Team Manager, Warrick Lang, and from the EPCR Disciplinary Officer, Liam McTiernan.
The committee determined that Vunipola had committed an act of foul play, however, it decided that there was insufficient force in the contact to Hanekom’s head to warrant a red card, and the red card was therefore overturned.
Vunipola is free to play immediately and EPCR has the right to appeal the decision.
Quote:TOKS
Can we expect World Rugby to appeal the decision too?
Exactly my cynical comment!
To be honest it was obvious from first viewing that whilst reckless, Billy had only made glancing contact with the number 8s head (luck not judgement!). That was why I was very surprised at the time that the ref decided a high level of force. That and the Alex yellow card were both pretty harsh decisions.
Not remotely surprised - an extremely questionable decision at the time and I said to the OH then "it'll be overturned at the hearing but that won't help us now". No problem with the game needing to stamp out dangerous play - Billy was b***y stupid to go charging in like that as it could have been so much worse but there was virtually no (or indeed any) head contact and the Bulls' player did milk it for all he was worth.
The player I really feel sorry for is RH-A. Every time he recovers and plays it only seems he is able to play for one or two games before being injured again. When he is fit he is a quality prop
Agree gerry. When he has played ge has been brilliant but he literally seems to return for a game then is out for an extended period. Given how many years that's been over already there are shades of Super Duncan about his situation.
Quote:villagesarrie
Not remotely surprised - an extremely questionable decision at the time and I said to the OH then "it'll be overturned at the hearing but that won't help us now". No problem with the game needing to stamp out dangerous play - Billy was b***y stupid to go charging in like that as it could have been so much worse but there was virtually no (or indeed any) head contact and the Bulls' player did milk it for all he was worth.
Perhaps they should be renamed the Cows rather than Bulls with all the milking going on!
I was utterly astonished when a red was shown, and had just assumed the screen in the ground wasn’t good enough to pick out the head contact he was punished for
Quote:OldMarovian
JMG to 8 TK?
Before the Billy news I would’ve said so, started there enough in the World Cup!
The card against Billy was an absolute joke as was the soccer level of simulation from the Bulls when they were not reffing the game!
London Irish ? To the Back Bone!
London Irish ? To the Back Bone!
He didn’t hit the guy but let’s not ignore how stupidly reckless that attempted clear out was. If he had hit him in that position there could have been serious injury and billy out for months. He seriously needs to stop playing like that
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