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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:10:13:16:24:25 by Darraghgirl.

Going to be a very tough afternoon. Team selection will be fascinating

Saracens Men team to play Gloucester:

1 Mako Vunipola

2 Jamie George

3 Christian Judge

4 Theo McFarland

5 Hugh Tizard

6 Andy Christie

7 Ben Earl

8 Billy Vunipola

9 Ivan van Zyl

10 Owen Farrell (c)

11 Alex Lewington

12 Duncan Taylor

13 Alex Lozowski

14 Max Malins

15 Elliot Daly

Replacements:

16 Tom Woolstencroft

17 Eroni Mawi

18 Alec Clarey

19 Callum Hunter-Hill

20 Jackson Wray

21 Ruben de Haas

22 Manu Vunipola

23 Josh Hallett

decent looking team - interesting that Maro gets the week off; perhaps part of a deal with England for allowing him to play at Quins?

Does anyone know if Segun is injured? I would rather see him than Lewington to be honest. Tomkins will be missed at 12. Also interesting that Daly is at 15 rather than Malins and wonder what the theory is there.

bigger boot

Hopefully Tomkins rested otherwise we are getting very short of backs.

Quote:

JO'G
bigger boot

I thought we were running everything now!

Tompkins spotted in Santorini this week so hopefully a planned week off for him with some of those with minor niggles to return for the Leicester game.

Maro took a knock at the end of the Quins game. Glad he is having a week off really.

It would be nice if the club gave us an update on injuries ( as they did last season )rather than leaving us all to speculate ….

First live game of the season and I can't wait. Hopefully the sun stays out and it's a great day.

It looks like a number of players may have knocks, injuries (as said above) Maro, Davies, Goode? and hopefully they aren't too bad. Given those we still have a very good team and I generally like the balance. Good to see the experience of Wray and Woolstencroft on the bench.

Still not to sure about how heavy we go with centres as cover as opposed to back three. Its great to see Hallett given an opportunity but in terms of balance and impact I feel Segun, if available, should be at least on the bench. Looking for a big game from Taylor and for Daly to back up last weeks excellent performance.

Glaws board doesn't seem overly optimistic which given their strong pack, set piece and potential in their backs seems odd. I think this is going to be a very tough game. We've excellent players in our pack but the lack of usual very good maul disrupters in Maro and Isiekwe could be painful.

Good luck to the team.

It will be interesting to see how the line out goes without Maro.

Quote:

Static
Maro took a knock at the end of the Quins game. Glad he is having a week off really.

There's an article about Maro in our favourite newspaper (comic), and it states he has a minor shoulder injury.

What happened at the death?

It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!

We came alive.

A great and exciting finish to what had been a curiously disappointing game. We never seemed to get to grips with CMK who penalised us time and again and thus gave Gloucester good field position from which on occasion they scored.
Still we lost to Gloucester twice last season so shouldn’t complain about a 5 point win but there is plenty for the coaches to work on.

One funny aside I loved the fact that the Gloucester team coach had the following number plate:

GL05 BUS

Never in doubt 😂😂😂😂😂The boys turned up when needed. Next week can we have Alicia Keys instead of CMK! We were good with the ball and our defense was solid but close to the line we looked vulnerable. Something to work on ahead of the visit by the current champions.COYS

I have a friend who decided to leave with 15 mins to go because clearly we weren’t going to win as we were rubbish and he’d get brownie points with the wife as relatives were staying.

Poor, poor sap! 😂

Another of those days when all around are hugging each other and you think “ is there any other sporting club which has as much drama as we do?” I don’t think there is. We are blessed to be part of this.

And that silence as Owen took the final kick. Church mice would be proud.

Conceded 4 tries in 13 minutes either side of half time, I simply could not see that tide turning as we completely on the wrong side of CMK. Crucially at the end he started giving us the marginal ones.
Daly excellent again today, would say he looks first choice 15

For a long part of the game we played like 15 individuals and not a team; thankfully they got it together for the last fifteen minutes

"And that silence as Owen took the final kick. Church mice would be proud.[/quote]"

Not the Glos fan who was sat just behind me, who thought it the right time to shout his support for his team,and to voice his opinion on Owen Farrell.Still, we've all got 'em,and Owen Farrell is so 'In the Zone' I suppose it doesn't matter.

What a game, not posted for a while but feel I have too today.
Looking at other forums ( it’s not just salty Glaws fans who do this then post that there’s only 17 posts for todays match and that we are a sad club ) I feel the hate for Sarries and have done for a while but don’t really care. Love this club, love its ethos and love the way they play although they do give me palpitations some times.
Long may the vitriol and bile continue, I know it’s not something that would be said to our faces in the clubhouse so it’s not important. What is very pertinent is telling the team how much I enjoy watching them play, their fire and spirit and also their close to the line attitude.
Come on you Sarries!

I really think that win will pull the team together and give them extra confidence over the coming season. Let's not forget that the team that was on the field today, and substitutes when they came on, have not played that much together.

Pretty please can we get the message out that it really is polite to wait for a break in play before pushing your way along a row while the game is on. (Particularly the lady in the green coat with the two kids.)

Glos fan here. Tight game which I think your big match experience got you through in the end. The celebration by the players at the end suggests we pushed you all the way. So from our perspective we are getting better to mix it with top league sides. One thing…is jumping into a tackle to then pass a new tactic in your offloading game plan. I saw BV do it last week and Macfarland did it this week . He made contact with Harris’s head so that might get looked at in the week. Don’t think you can jump into a tackle?

Quote:

Old rik
Glos fan here. Tight game which I think your big match experience got you through in the end. The celebration by the players at the end suggests we pushed you all the way. So from our perspective we are getting better to mix it with top league sides. One thing…is jumping into a tackle to then pass a new tactic in your offloading game plan. I saw BV do it last week and Macfarland did it this week . He made contact with Harris’s head so that might get looked at in the week. Don’t think you can jump into a tackle?

You’re quite right Old rik and the outcome of the TMO looking into it was bang on. Harris took him past the horizontal in the tackle but MacFarland. Jumper into the tackle. I’m not saying 2 wrongs make a right but the outcome was correct. No penalty either way.

I hope Harris is okay though, he’s a talent.

Looked more like he was jumping to pass over the tackler. Either way nothing in it so if that's the best you've got then I feel sorry for you.

Very exciting end to what was in large part a highly frustrating afternoon. The Gloucester brand of rugby is effective but so dull and unimaginative. At a time when domestic rugby is struggling to attract new fans, having to watch the Gloucester throw, catch, stick it up the hooker's jumper routine ad nauseam is exactly what is not required. It's a real shame when Gloucester have the likes of LRZ, Ollie Thorburn and Chris Harris that they have absolutely no interest in letting them have the ball.

Today was a victory for the only team interested with running with the ball and thank god for that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:24:21:57:05 by JimG.

Thanks for the reply-I just didn’t see it that way. For me the tackle didn’t happen first, your man jumped into Harris who then got one in the head and completed a tackle with Macfarland in the air. TMO says tackle legal because Macfarland jumped. Contact with the head was made so we then enter the RFU flow chart for head contact. Was head contact made….yes. Was it ifoul play yes, you can’t jump into a tackle. Any mitigation…No. TMO says tackle was legal. Sorry it’s a red. CMK got it totally wrong.

Jim read the law book diude. Jumping to pass anything is foul play. So there is something in it. And I don’t think you want to start the 10 man rugby debate do you. Your clubs considerable success was built off the back of box kick, pressurise with a chase Lineout and strong D and repeat. Sarries invented the game plan. Yes we are in different places developmental wise but we’ve scored plenty of try of the months. No need to feel sorry was just after some rugby debate with fans . I thought that what’s a forum was for. Jeez…have a fab season.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:24:22:18:58 by Old rik.

Quote:

Old rik
Thanks for the reply-I just didn’t see it that way. For me the tackle didn’t happen first, your man jumped into Harris who then got one in the head and completed a tackle with Macfarland in the air. TMO says tackle legal because Macfarland jumped. Contact with the head was made so we then enter the RFU flow chart for head contact. Was head contact made….yes. Was it ifoul play yes, you can’t jump into a tackle. Any mitigation…No. TMO says tackle was legal. Sorry it’s a red. CMK got it totally wrong.
Jim read the law book diude. Jumping to pass anything is foul play. So there is something in it. And I don’t think you want to start the 10 man rugby debate do you. Your clubs considerable success was built off the back of box kick, pressurise with a chase Lineout and strong D and repeat. Sarries invented the game plan. Yes we are in different places developmental wise but we’ve scored plenty of try of the months. No need to feel sorry was just after some rugby debate with fans . I thought that what’s a forum was for. Jeez…have a fab season.

I too agree that you have nothing to feel sorry about, yours was an honest question we would have in the clubhouse. Please keep dipping in & posting.

I was pleased to see our bench make a difference when it came on and this time they were replacing the more experienced players rather than the internationals coming on to save the day. To me, that bodes well for the season and shows how those players have developed - Wolfie was awesome and we definitely missed him at the end of last season. Pleased for Hallet - is he a crash it up 12 like Brad? Dodgy moustache, though, Movember not for another 5 weeks! Daly was my Sarries MoM and I definitely think his best position is FB - he has more time/space and he gets the ball more often than when on the wing. Hopefully, a kick up the backside today. I certainly could not have complained if Glos had taken the points. Their set piece was so much better than ours today! Not many other kickers I would want than Faz having to convert at the end!

We can hardly call 39 points the product off boring game plan. How many teams have scored more than that here? Less than 5 I’d say.
Our performance in the cup final was g to be definition of unimaginative.

I still don't think I have processed that game

.. I even had a hours drive home and it's only just sunk in... I thought we were burried

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

Emotional rollercoaster ... brilliantly done team

Enjoy Farrells birthday beers and be in bright and early on Monday. A helluva lot to work on before Tigers next week.

Great game and Gloucester reminded me of us a few years ago it was uncanny!!! I was saying to a few guys behind us that I like the look of their number 9. I think we still haven't replaced Wiggie, Davies has become very very good but we are missing control in that area. Great game though COYS!!!

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
One funny aside I loved the fact that the Gloucester team coach had the following number plate:
GL05 BUS

I liked that too. Also with all the bits of building super-structure still in the car-park I did think I know it's normal with IKEA stuff that you have a few bits left over but should you have that with a stadium?

I liked that too. Also with all the bits of building super-structure still in the car-park I did think I know it's normal with IKEA stuff that you have a few bits left over but should you have that with a stadium? [/quote]

Wasn’t that the old dressing rooms?

Quote:

Old rik
Jim read the law book diude. Jumping to pass anything is foul play. So there is something in it. And I don’t think you want to start the 10 man rugby debate do you. Your clubs considerable success was built off the back of box kick, pressurise with a chase Lineout and strong D and repeat. Sarries invented the game plan. Yes we are in different places developmental wise but we’ve scored plenty of try of the months. No need to feel sorry was just after some rugby debate with fans . I thought that what’s a forum was for. Jeez…have a fab season.

Of all the incidents in the game you came to talk about one act of potentially foul play by a Saracens player, linked it to another incident in the previous game by Billy and then suggested it was a new Saracens tactic! Nice that Saracens are living rent free in your head but don't try to pretend that you came over to "debate" in good faith.

I thought I was making a fairly valid point about the fact that Gloucester took every opportunity to slow the game down (I think it lasted over 2 hours), scored all their points either directly or indirectly from rolling mauls and failed to create to anything in midfield at all during the whole 80 mins despite having some talented backs. In response I get "we used to be like that" (we didn't), "well we were boring in the premiership final" (agreed but what has that got to do with yesterday's game) and "not many teams score 39 points against us" (again agreed but see foregoing as to the manner of those points). I am not saying that there isn't a discussion to be had here and clearly Gloucester's tactics very nearly worked but I might have expected a bit more of engagement on a fans forum rather than some rather morose grumbling. Anyone interested in discussing the match rather than Gloucester's coach number plate?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:25:08:35:00 by JimG.

Quote:

JimG
Anyone interested in discussing the match rather than Gloucester's coach number plate?

Spoilsport

I'm always interested in the build up and the actual match from people who were there as it can be very different from watching it live.

A few observations re Glaws.
Albert Tuisova is a unit. I was genuinely surprised he can get his arms above shoulder height his shoulder and traps are so huge. Watching him gently rag-doll Ackerman in tackle practice made me worry for our players.
In the warm-up they were running lots of drills with the centres putting huge flat, miss (1 or 2) passes out to the wing. The success rate wasn't great but when it worked they celebrated with lots of whopping and hollering. Given that we defend quite narrow I was a bit worried about that. Throughout the game when LRZ and others were hugging the touchline whilst our widest defender was a good 5m plus in I was getting antsy.
Their maul is a brilliantly effective weapon. It hurt us badly not having our usual exceptional maul defenders with their long octopus arms but tbh the main damage was self-inflicted by giving them repeated chances to use it through poor discipline.
LRZ had no photo for the Glaws team sheet, possibly appropriate as he was totally anonymous.
Tricky to be too harsh on CMK for all the stoppages he allowed Glaws given they picked up some genuine injuries but when the same couple of front row forwards are having an injury break/breather every five minutes then maybe suggest if they are genuinely needing that much attention they should be off the field. Next time I'd suggest they bring pillows and a blanket so they're comfy.
The two different groups of Glaws supporters I spoke with were really pleasant, interesting and a good laugh.

I watched the game without refmike and haven't seen it on TV so no idea about many of the calls so I won't comment of CMK other than to say that our inability to manage him continuously put Glaws in dangerous positions where as they looked in no danger of getting out of their half unaided. Even if the referee is wrong we have to get better at biting our tongues and taking the decisions out of his hands. Quite a bit of this issue is with senior players. Time to set and example.

I don't know how it came over on TV but the wind was very swirly although definitely blowing South to North. Neither team adapted to it especially well. Pretty much all of our kicking was too long though whether that was weather, tactic or execution I'm not sure. Please lets see the return of a proper competitive kick chase and pick players who can do that.

A very unwelcome return to kicking away great possession. Turnover ball where we get it to width and have men advantage is not the time for an optimistic hack downfield. Again senior players guilty of that repeatedly. Ditto to a fair bit of running headlong into traffic rather than trying to move the ball and find space. Defenders not paying attention at guard on several occasions allowing big breaks via a pick and go up the middle.
Super talented backs left to twiddle their thumbs much of the game.

We missed Tompkins badly. Picking a centre who even when "fit" is doubtful to do 40 minutes is an issue. It seemingly means that we need a centre on the bench too whether or not we have utility cover and that's unbalancing the 23 IMO.
Billy was absolutely incredible in terms of work rate. Again we have nothing close to his impact so will definitely need different ways of playing when he's absent. Mako was very quiet, is he carrying a knock?
The major motivation and leadership I saw was from Earl and then Wray. Credit to both. Earl in particular who was one of few trying to raise the tempo and encourage others when it all went a bit flat. If Jones is dim enough not to pick him I'd like to see him considered as Captain in Farrells absence.

Not criticism of either TH both of whom I thought were good but there are more and more teams with very good packs and having our first (Riccioni) and arguably second (Bello) choice THs available would be great.

Both lock and scrum-half looking concerning given injuries.
Tigers are a very good team and I have no problem losing to a better one than us on the day. If we repeat 60 minutes of that performance we will get pumped next week at home. If the Final last season wasn't motivation enough hopefully that's the extra they need.

The heart and guts shown in the last fifteen and to secure the win was Sarries at their best.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:25:09:35:35 by OldMarovian.

Also some glorious running rugby in the other games. Bristol v LI in particular a real joy to watch.

One unusual feature of the game was that it was less a game of two halves but more a game of four quarters with Sarries bossing the 1st and 4th quarters but losing badly in the 2nd and 3rd. This is not a pattern I have seen often with Sarries who quite often lose the 1st half but after a good rollicking at half time often come storming back in the 2nd half.

The other really noticeable thing was how the scoring was highly correlated to getting penalty advantages. When Gloucester scored their 26 point unanswered we seemed to give penalty after penalty and then of course in the last 15 minutes the positions were reversed and we scored 21 points.

Anyone have any idea who was the MotM?

Pretty sure I read it was Farrell David. Justifiably so given how vital his perfect kicking was (and much of the rest of his game)

Two or three repeated penalties pretty well means you have conceded a try. Bad enough if the penalties are for avoidable errors but if it's as a result of ignoring the referee's call or for back chat - why, just why? Is that what was happening in the middle two quarters?

Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

🌻🌻🌻

We thought we got a rough end of our ref but you have to sympathise with Quins today - Ugo called it forward, LBND called it forward, The TMO called it forward but the ref said it was flat!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:25:20:36:55 by siNBin.

Quote:

siNBin
We thought we got a rough end of our ref but you have to sympathise with Quins today - Ugo called it forward, LBND called it forward, The TMO called it forward but the ref said it was flat!

I am all for minimal interference from the TMO and that pass did indeed look flat so well done to Tempest for sticking to his guns on that. Ugo and Delaglio say a lot of things that ought to be ignored.

It was clear that Sarries did feel they were on the wrong end of the ref's whistle on Saturday and from where I was sitting in my new seat in the West stand (excellent view!), wearing my red and black glasses I tended to agree. I think we got pinged at pretty much every maul for one reason or another albeit that they mostly ended up scoring anyway. The ref was really pedantic about not rolling away even though the roller didn't appear to be preventing play at all. Gloucester were repeatedly allowed to go off their feet at the breakdown though.

We really missed Maro and Isiekwe as we didn't seem to be able to get in amongst them at all at the lineout apart from one Theo steal. They did seem to be given an age at each maul to get moving after we stopped them initially though and if you are given an unlimited amount of time to shift the drive, a penalty or eventual breakaway seems almost inevitable. I haven't watched back but also interested in the legality of the lifters getting themselves between the catcher and the defenders. I am sure if I were a Gloucester supporter I would be delighted in the efficiency of this part of their game but from an opposition supporter's perspective it is pretty turgid and very frustrating if that is their principal (only) attacking weapon. Pleasing that we managed to beat them by employing their own tactic though at the end although that was rather more of a fifteen man shove.

It also shouldn't be forgotten though that we only won because Farrell nailed two unbelievable conversions from the touchline into the wind - absolutely amazing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:26:09:07:13 by JimG.

right have a chance to think about this as much as i enjoyed the game in the north stand, which I will say went absolutely barmy on the last kick... what a ride that was!!

so yes I think we need to make sure we have Sam and Charlie get real game time this year and not just PRC dead rubbers, when i try to think about are there any scrummies that can be brought in at good value.. yep me neither!

i though gloucester were very good value for their points, what stroke of luck that they had to bring on Val ravaia-ruskin on early as he and the number 8 were dynamite

we will need to shore up and hopefully the memory on the final will help drive the fact that we can not be dropping balls under little pressure, let alone when we are on with a decent scoring opportunity.


as a last point regarding our visitor on this thread, i'm sure a number of gloucester fans on the day were feeling pretty sore and if your on the wrong end of a really disappointing result its natural to start looking for reasons for unjust decisions to pin the loss on. i still think its important to be cordial to visitors no matter how angry or annoyed they might be. we got a lot of baiting over 2019, and seeing a lot of it by some tiger fans this weekend in their derby. i'm glad so much of that is done on the socials and hasnt crept in too badly on RN... all seems rather unpleasant

Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

All teams (including us believe it or not) try to get away with as much as possible and the basic rule of rugby is if the referee lets it go it's legal. I only get frustrated with it if a team adapts and then gets pinged for using the same tactic the opposition did. In the maul situation I think someone needed to be having a word with the referee about the lifters shielding as the jumper came down but who knows, maybe they did?

Big question is what to do about discipline? Maybe I'm being unfair but it seems to be an issue with our "star" players rather than the (brilliant) rank and file. Do we need to start benching or dropping players? the message just isn't getting through. Btw I do get that the referee can be rubbish but you can't change that, definitely not by moaning at them.

The Leicester game will be something to behold I hope.

Having out Saracened Saracens in the final, will Borths, Wiggy and Ashy pull it off again - or will we out Leicester, Leicester. Certainly need Maro and Nick back in the fray - no chance for Nick sadly but hopefully Maro?

My wife has told me that she's considering ending our marriage due to my utter obsession with rugby.

I'm begging her for one more try!

Any news anywhere about Riccioni and RA-H?

Quote:

OldMarovian
All teams (including us believe it or not) try to get away with as much as possible and the basic rule of rugby is if the referee lets it go it's legal. I only get frustrated with it if a team adapts and then gets pinged for using the same tactic the opposition did. In the maul situation I think someone needed to be having a word with the referee about the lifters shielding as the jumper came down but who knows, maybe they did?
Big question is what to do about discipline? Maybe I'm being unfair but it seems to be an issue with our "star" players rather than the (brilliant) rank and file. Do we need to start benching or dropping players? the message just isn't getting through. Btw I do get that the referee can be rubbish but you can't change that, definitely not by moaning at them.

Yes - I am aware that I am much more inclined to notice the oppositions infringements than Saracen's but clearly our team weren't particularly happy about some the ref's interpretations either and as for having a word - I am sure they did. I also haven't looked at the replays to see whether what they were doing at the lineouts was legal or not so was just floating that question.

I know this is an unpopular opinion on this board but I am really not too fussed about the supposed discipline problem. We got marched back once I think on Saturday but it was in the middle of the pitch and didn't make much if any difference. Looked to me like a case of muttering slightly too audibly. It's not as though they are being abusive or anything and I think dropping the Vinapolas (as it seems usually to be them) for occasionally letting their emotions get the better of them is a terrible idea.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022:09:26:13:19:35 by JimG.

I have now removed my black and red tinted glasses, watched the highlights and to be honest their lineout technique looks fine. Just immensely frustrating to be repeatedly on the end of it. We need to find a way of countering it if we aren't going to get turned over at their place.

The thing that frustrated me about Maxwell Keyes, (and does every time I watch him referee) is he seems to be inconsistent in his decisions.

As noted, he was hot on the impeding the scrum-half by lying on the wrong side, but only hot on it when the offence was a Saracens one. If Glaws did thge impeding, more luke-warm

Also the 10 yard walk back, which I am happy for him to do. However, only a few minutes after the decision against Billy, a Glaws player 'had a word' after a penalty decision. Smiles all round and no marching.

Lastly, he again stuck his arm out firmly for a penalty advantage, which was then turned into a no hope chip. During the minute between the events, the penalty advantage had disappeared. I don't care if he doesn't indicate the advantage and then gives the penalty; however once you stick out the arm you need to stick with the decision.

On the other hand we did seem to get he rub of the coin with the hanging on offences.

My point is consistency is key; consistently mediocre or consistently good, I don't really care. As long as its the same for both teams and the whole match

JO'G I thought kicking the ball away is end of penalty advantage (regardless of it's good or not) or did I get that wrong?

Quote:

OldMarovian
JO'G I thought kicking the ball away is end of penalty advantage (regardless of it's good or not) or did I get that wrong?

You got that wrong. Kicking the ball forward is end of advantage from a minor infringement that would have been a scrum. But for a penalty advantage the advantage normally goes on a long while and can survive an ineffectual kick - hence players often try Hail Mary passes or cross field kicks. It was very strange how CMK seemed to award us a penalty and we clearly got no advantage but the next thing was a Gloucester drop out.

Ah thanks for the clarification COS.

Quote:

JimG
I have now removed my black and red tinted glasses, watched the highlights and to be honest their lineout technique looks fine. Just immensely frustrating to be repeatedly on the end of it. We need to find a way of countering it if we aren't going to get turned over at their place.

My suspicion is that Maro and Tim Swinson would be the ones to lead the line out defense last season, and both were missing

Mark Atkinson, Glaws centre standing in for one of the podcasters in Eggchasers this week. Well worth a listen and comfortably one of the most interesting and insightful rugby players I have ever heard speak about the game.