Saracens
Specifically on the subject of the WRU ....
Madhouse?
By Barnet Sarrie
January 9 2014
Barnet Sarrie thought the thread on the future of European rugby was getting too long.So she's been given her own one!
Are they mad off their heads, or mad angry?
I read this morning's reports of central contracts being offered to Warburton et al with a mix of dismay and annoyance. Their arrogance and lack of willingness to find a solution to the predicament the regions find themselves in, under a pretence of 'doing what is best for Welsh rugby' seems IMHO to be unforgiveable. Putting the players in this situation is quite simply disgusting. Strong words I know, but how can they????
I had mixed feelings about the situation in Wales to begin with, but I have to admit that with every Edict from the supposed authorities, I support the stance of the regions more and more. I wasn't sure about having the regions in the premiership - I worry about it being unfair on the Championship clubs and on the additional pressure on the players in having to cope with additional fixtures - but if that is the price of supporting the regions - (and their fans let's not forget - how would we feel if this were being done to Saracens or Tigers or Saints and we were being treated as a replaceable irrelevance?) then we should support them, against what I can only describe as tyranny. We simply have to find a way to make it work! Even if it is just for a year or two -
I never ever thought I would say this - but thank heavens we have the RFU. They look positively sensible by comparison ...
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Discussion started by TheSaracens.com , 09/01/2014 16:28
TheSaracens.com
09/01/2014 16:28
09/01/2014 16:28
Editor has moved this to the front page.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:09:16:33:10 by TonyTaff.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:09:16:33:10 by TonyTaff.
And by the way - (thank you to Saints) - just picked up from their board that the Dragons have signed Lee Byrne and Aled Brew
So no central contract for them then! Hopefully it is an indication that the other boys will do the same. I'm assuming that once they are contracted to the club, they cant then hitch their wagons to the WRU?
Surprised that no-one else has commented on this TBH: would have thought a few would have disagreed quite a bit!
So no central contract for them then! Hopefully it is an indication that the other boys will do the same. I'm assuming that once they are contracted to the club, they cant then hitch their wagons to the WRU?
Surprised that no-one else has commented on this TBH: would have thought a few would have disagreed quite a bit!
IRB will not support any cross-border competition not sanctioned by WRU according to Walesonline.
Whilst it doesn't explicitly say as such, it does say it won't approve any cross border competition not approved by the Unions involved, no surprise there, just the timing I guess.
And it appears the Lone Ranger is riding in to save the day (well David Moffett is coming back to salvage Welsh Rugby, or so he says).
Whilst it doesn't explicitly say as such, it does say it won't approve any cross border competition not approved by the Unions involved, no surprise there, just the timing I guess.
And it appears the Lone Ranger is riding in to save the day (well David Moffett is coming back to salvage Welsh Rugby, or so he says).
And the IRB has waded in today 'reminding' everyone that clubs can only participate in competitions that their own Union sanctions. Interesting timing for that particular reminder methinks.
Indeed, & I've just seen that the WRU have President, a Chairman & a Chief Executive.... no wonder they can't afford to keep their top players
[www.walesonline.co.uk]
This is what I mean - it really is a disgrace to put the players in this situation
This is what I mean - it really is a disgrace to put the players in this situation
Barnet Sarrie - you ask "WRU - are they mad ? "
I would have to say - "Very much so ! "
I would have to say - "Very much so ! "
I can't see how WRU could actually offer central contracts to North, Hibbard and the rest of the diaspora. Or will there be one set of arrangements for the players in Wales and other for the gone-away players? And will gone-aways be ignored for the national side? If so, players like North will become even more financially attractive to the big French names, and the result could be a lot of premature retirements from the Welsh national set-up.
There seems to be an extraordinary lack of reality about all this, perhaps it's all becoming a text-book on how not to manage a business or negotiate contracts. Stuff the players, stuff the supporters, where's my excellent lunch and padded seat - or should that be cell - at the Millennium Stadium?
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
There seems to be an extraordinary lack of reality about all this, perhaps it's all becoming a text-book on how not to manage a business or negotiate contracts. Stuff the players, stuff the supporters, where's my excellent lunch and padded seat - or should that be cell - at the Millennium Stadium?
Innings
Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.
Its all about control and ownership now its not about money, the Professional Clubs want to exclude the Unions from having and stake in the game whatsoever and the Unions other that the RFU want complete control too. Somewhere in that their should be a compromise , the real problem emerging is that you have six unions and their respective clubs all with entirely different solutions to the problem, personally I can't see why they didn't give the HC one more year and then introduce the RCC which was the one thing everyone but the English clubs wanted to buy into, but then I have always been a sit on the fence in the middle Liberal !
My concern it that if this does end up damaging the Six Nations in anyway, which it will if the Irish, scots and Italians are thrown to the wolves, it will permanently and irrevocably destroy the sport, and I genuinely fear at the moment that is the probable outcome.
My concern it that if this does end up damaging the Six Nations in anyway, which it will if the Irish, scots and Italians are thrown to the wolves, it will permanently and irrevocably destroy the sport, and I genuinely fear at the moment that is the probable outcome.
It's funny isn't it, the WRU won't sanction any competitions not sanctioned by the IRB, and yet the IRB won't sanction any competitions not sanctioned by the appropriate Union...
What's funny about that the WRU accept that the IRB are the sole arbiters of how the game in run globally, someone has to be.
But it seems bizarre to me, to me the IRB should only have a couple of purposes (in addition to other tasks it might want to take on - aiding negotiating, sport-spreading, etc)
1) Hold overall control of the world cup
2) Set the rules of rugby (and devolve that as it wishes)
1) Hold overall control of the world cup
2) Set the rules of rugby (and devolve that as it wishes)
no someone has to hold control of the game, either a body that's ultimately democratically elected , with every club in the world having a vote, though I admit that's a bit prosaic.. or you let it be controlled by TV companies and a handful of club owners, in the wider context is that in the best interests of the amateur game in New Zealand, Georgia and the Cook Islands,
The RWC is already substantially controlled by the TV companies. He who pays the piper, calls the tune.
Regarding the laws, I can't recall a single instance of a club owner publicly proposing changes to the game. The noisiest person in that regard has been the CEO of the ARU a few years back, who wanted to turn Union into the evil child of NH Union and SH League.
The RFU generates more income from the English club players during the AIs and 6Ns than the entire revenue stream of all the Premiership clubs combined.
If I were an investor in a Premiership club (I use the word lightly, because only an idiot would expect any return on their capital) I would be choking on the iniquity of ERC arrangements for both raising and distribution of revenues for what are clearly club competitions.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regarding the laws, I can't recall a single instance of a club owner publicly proposing changes to the game. The noisiest person in that regard has been the CEO of the ARU a few years back, who wanted to turn Union into the evil child of NH Union and SH League.
The RFU generates more income from the English club players during the AIs and 6Ns than the entire revenue stream of all the Premiership clubs combined.
If I were an investor in a Premiership club (I use the word lightly, because only an idiot would expect any return on their capital) I would be choking on the iniquity of ERC arrangements for both raising and distribution of revenues for what are clearly club competitions.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
The RFU generates more income from the English club players during the AIs and 6Ns than the entire revenue stream of all the Premiership clubs combined.
I do see your point Convex its tricky, but take that revenue to the Unions way, and there is then no money to support the Club game, the Junior game, the clubs that provide the players for the Professional clubs.
And in the big wide world no one but a handful put club before country, go to the Saracens Head in Worcester on Sunday I doubt they will have more than a handful of people watching the Heineken Cup, on Feb 1st when the 6 Nations kicks off the pub will be rammed to the gunnels
200 people that's the difference between the two competitions.
And its the beer they drink, that allows TV to pay the money, that keeps the Premiership afloat
I do see your point Convex its tricky, but take that revenue to the Unions way, and there is then no money to support the Club game, the Junior game, the clubs that provide the players for the Professional clubs.
And in the big wide world no one but a handful put club before country, go to the Saracens Head in Worcester on Sunday I doubt they will have more than a handful of people watching the Heineken Cup, on Feb 1st when the 6 Nations kicks off the pub will be rammed to the gunnels
200 people that's the difference between the two competitions.
And its the beer they drink, that allows TV to pay the money, that keeps the Premiership afloat
The 'country over club' argument suits the unions, and is just the way that they would like it to stay.
It is the unions who have continually blocked upcoming nations at international level, because they only want to play teams that have the potential to generate lots of cash from internationals. Japan being an example of that process.
Look at the frequency of international matches between the first tier teams nowadays, compared with a few decades ago.
'Country over club' has served the RFU very well, and the clubs far less so. It is is not the natural order of things, it is the result of a determined effort on the part of unions to keep it that way.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
It is the unions who have continually blocked upcoming nations at international level, because they only want to play teams that have the potential to generate lots of cash from internationals. Japan being an example of that process.
Look at the frequency of international matches between the first tier teams nowadays, compared with a few decades ago.
'Country over club' has served the RFU very well, and the clubs far less so. It is is not the natural order of things, it is the result of a determined effort on the part of unions to keep it that way.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Quote:ChrisR
It's funny isn't it, the WRU won't sanction any competitions not sanctioned by the IRB, and yet the IRB won't sanction any competitions not sanctioned by the appropriate Union...
There is nothing in the IRB rules about cross-border competitions requiring IRB sanction. The sanction of the Unions involved will suffice, which is why, if push comes to shove, RRW need only strong-arm WRU through the courts, not the IRB.
Quote:Shhh!Quote:ChrisR
It's funny isn't it, the WRU won't sanction any competitions not sanctioned by the IRB, and yet the IRB won't sanction any competitions not sanctioned by the appropriate Union...
There is nothing in the IRB rules about cross-border competitions requiring IRB sanction. The sanction of the Unions involved will suffice, which is why, if push comes to shove, RRW need only strong-arm WRU through the courts, not the IRB.
Are you sure Shhh? If that is the case, then the WRU et al have very little to support their cause.
Quote:Fozz1eQuote:Shhh!Quote:ChrisR
It's funny isn't it, the WRU won't sanction any competitions not sanctioned by the IRB, and yet the IRB won't sanction any competitions not sanctioned by the appropriate Union...
There is nothing in the IRB rules about cross-border competitions requiring IRB sanction. The sanction of the Unions involved will suffice, which is why, if push comes to shove, RRW need only strong-arm WRU through the courts, not the IRB.
Are you sure Shhh? If that is the case, then the WRU et al have very little to support their cause.
Yup, certain. I've read the IRB rules and regs, sad puppy that I am.
I should also have said, of course, that RFU approval would also be required which may not be forthcoming.
Interesting, and I am sure the IRB would not put any pressure on the RFU not to sanction a tournament 
'Country over club' has served the RFU very well, and the clubs far less so. It is is not the natural order of things, it is the result of a determined effort on the part of unions to keep it that way
And say they should, this isn't about a few gin and tonics, the Six nations pays for the scrummaging machines at the Junior Clubs. It funds the game and the ten of thousands of kids who play it on a Sunday morning, the effect of an Anglo Welsh league would be to destroy the game completely in Italy, Scotland and Ireland, there would be no more teams from these nations capable of competing in the six nations, and this would destroy the junior clubs in Wales and England too by choking off their funding to the PRL or the Welsh regions care, no its me. me, me, us us us.
Yes the clubs need a more equitable share, but not at the expense of the junior clubs, who provide, free of charge, the players that the professional clubs, earn there money from.
And say they should, this isn't about a few gin and tonics, the Six nations pays for the scrummaging machines at the Junior Clubs. It funds the game and the ten of thousands of kids who play it on a Sunday morning, the effect of an Anglo Welsh league would be to destroy the game completely in Italy, Scotland and Ireland, there would be no more teams from these nations capable of competing in the six nations, and this would destroy the junior clubs in Wales and England too by choking off their funding to the PRL or the Welsh regions care, no its me. me, me, us us us.
Yes the clubs need a more equitable share, but not at the expense of the junior clubs, who provide, free of charge, the players that the professional clubs, earn there money from.
from the other thread
IRB Regulations 2.1.2
A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to one Union and shall be subject to the jurisdiction of the bye-laws, rules and regulations of that Union. A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to the Union within whose geographical boundaries its Home Ground is situated and shall only be entitled to play in Matches organised, recognised or sanctioned by that Union, unless specific approval has been given by both Unions. No Club or Rugby Body shall be entitled to change the location of its Home Ground or the name by which its senior teams are known, without the prior written consent of the Union to which it is affiliated.
IRB Regulations 2.1.2
A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to one Union and shall be subject to the jurisdiction of the bye-laws, rules and regulations of that Union. A Club or Rugby Body may only be affiliated to the Union within whose geographical boundaries its Home Ground is situated and shall only be entitled to play in Matches organised, recognised or sanctioned by that Union, unless specific approval has been given by both Unions. No Club or Rugby Body shall be entitled to change the location of its Home Ground or the name by which its senior teams are known, without the prior written consent of the Union to which it is affiliated.
Maybe they should send this from Briton Ferry RFC to all the committee members of the WRU.
I am no lawyer, but I would have thought, that the Unions would win a temporary injunction to stop it from happening until the case had gone to trial and the legal process exhausted, which I assume would be 2 or 3 years.
I say that because one of my business partners has been slapped with a temporary injunction preventing us from putting on a Riverdance tribute show, if they will and legal opinion is that they might, it will potentially mean the end of all tribute shows within the EU
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:09:15:00:00 by WoodfordDave.
I say that because one of my business partners has been slapped with a temporary injunction preventing us from putting on a Riverdance tribute show, if they will and legal opinion is that they might, it will potentially mean the end of all tribute shows within the EU
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:09:15:00:00 by WoodfordDave.
Anyone who even thinks of a Riverdance tribute show deserves locking in irons.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
tribute shows would be fine as long as something went back to the original artist: 10% of artists fee or similar
Ummm WD - I think you'll find that the clubs (especially our own) are also very supportive of local clubs. There may be dollops of cash from the RFU - but they aren't by any means the only ones funding club rugby. And that is entirely as it should be. It should be everyone's responsibility (Club and country) to support the grassroots game.
But then I have to ask - if the IRB and Unions ARENT spending their cash supporting the local clubs and paying (and training) the referees - then what in hell are they actually doing with all that money!!!!!!??? Surely that's what its for!!!!!!
But then I have to ask - if the IRB and Unions ARENT spending their cash supporting the local clubs and paying (and training) the referees - then what in hell are they actually doing with all that money!!!!!!??? Surely that's what its for!!!!!!
a lot of the cash goes on jollies & expenses for 'officials'
but before you all start complaining its not a complete coincidence that a lot of those 'officials' are those who do loads of unsung, unpaid organisation work at local level, especially amongst the juniors
but before you all start complaining its not a complete coincidence that a lot of those 'officials' are those who do loads of unsung, unpaid organisation work at local level, especially amongst the juniors
Coo - Thank you, Eds for making me official!!!
I never had a posh thread heading like this before
I never had a posh thread heading like this before
No problem with that - don't think anyone would have to be honest. They should be using it to 'thank' and reward unsung heroes. And we do it too - and so do the other clubs. That's my point, It is and should be a partnership. Funnily enough - with Ritchie in charge I have more confidence than I've ever had that that's how its being viewed at the RFU. I just wish that the other unions behaved the same way.
But the RFU makes a huge amount of money .... They aren't sending Algernon Cholmondley-Smythe-Patterson-Fortescue-Ffooks and his fellow Little Whyngeing RFC committee to Necker Island for a month are they?
But the RFU makes a huge amount of money .... They aren't sending Algernon Cholmondley-Smythe-Patterson-Fortescue-Ffooks and his fellow Little Whyngeing RFC committee to Necker Island for a month are they?
Quote:Fozz1e
Maybe they should send this from Briton Ferry RFC to all the committee members of the WRU.
That's brilliant - sums it up perfectly, why we love rugby!!
Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !
No probs, BS. If I predict that a thread will get a lot of hits, I'll make it a front-page article so that the Sarries Foundation gets the picopennies that Sportnetwork pay for front-page hits (they pay nowt for mere messageboard hits).
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
If only the hot air could be mde to fuel the National Grid
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Maybe hot air from both sides now;-
Hopes of a peace deal, I think it may be a piece deal.....
“We’re happy to discuss operational details within a potential agreement, but any detail is meaningless without WRU fulfilling their primary obligation of defining the structure of the competitions the agreement applies to and committing to the revenues generated.
“WRU assure us they will confirm these core elements within this month, allowing the regions to run their businesses at the same time as finalising any operational detail within a joint agreement.”
Interesting to see how they square that circle, WRU contracted to Rabo & ERC, RRW want to play in the Premiership, and the RCC-discuss
Hopes of a peace deal, I think it may be a piece deal.....
“We’re happy to discuss operational details within a potential agreement, but any detail is meaningless without WRU fulfilling their primary obligation of defining the structure of the competitions the agreement applies to and committing to the revenues generated.
“WRU assure us they will confirm these core elements within this month, allowing the regions to run their businesses at the same time as finalising any operational detail within a joint agreement.”
Interesting to see how they square that circle, WRU contracted to Rabo & ERC, RRW want to play in the Premiership, and the RCC-discuss
This strikes me as coherent. It's from a bloke whom I believe to be a Cardiff Blues supporter.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Reading that article I think that the most you can say about it is that they are at least getting around the table. It implies that there is still a fairly considerable gulf -
Maybe it was the threat of David Moffett returning and threatening to take over again that panicked them all!
And now we've got all the question of the Italians as well!!!
Maybe it was the threat of David Moffett returning and threatening to take over again that panicked them all!
And now we've got all the question of the Italians as well!!!
RRW response to Sam Warburton's central contract.
Methinks the guy is being used by the WRU as a bargaining chip, daring Cardiff to refuse to play him, and hoping this may convince the Welsh fans they have the best interests of Welsh Rugby at their hearts. I credit them with more intelligence than do the WRU.
He may well be left high & dry if it all goes $%£s up.
Methinks the guy is being used by the WRU as a bargaining chip, daring Cardiff to refuse to play him, and hoping this may convince the Welsh fans they have the best interests of Welsh Rugby at their hearts. I credit them with more intelligence than do the WRU.
He may well be left high & dry if it all goes $%£s up.
I found the interview that Colin Boag refers to in the rugby paper the most revealing - BBC Wales Scrum V. All you have to do is listen to the silence of the audience when the WRU CEO Roger Lewis goes into a whole string of platitudes about how what he is doing is for the good of Welsh rugby.
I'm sorry but this does not give me confidence in Unions or their control of club rugby. What is going on is really disgraceful. And David Moffatt is transparent.
I'm sorry but this does not give me confidence in Unions or their control of club rugby. What is going on is really disgraceful. And David Moffatt is transparent.
From what Warburton was saying about the number of games he wants to play each season he won't be turning out for Cardiff except in the ERC cup
perhaps one or two for fitness purposes
perhaps one or two for fitness purposes
BS, the ScrumV broadcast is heavily edited. A friend was in the audience - not only was the event heavily managed to reduce the impact of those hostile to the WRU, it was then edited in an attempt to downplay the evident hostility.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
You don't surprise me Tony - but even with the editing, you can still tell that the WRU stance is deeply unpopular.
Yes, the WRU chappie was not popular - everyones fault but theirs , - he also seemed to have the stance that the regions were going nowhere - very much in the vein that the WRU had the upper hand !
Its no surprise its a mess !
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:30:19:18:05 by Waldo.
Its no surprise its a mess !
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:30:19:18:05 by Waldo.
I wonder if the WRU managed to sell the same number of debentures for the same amounts as the RFU did when they redeveloped Twickenham
I know we all get a bit annoyed at the availability of seats for Twickenham, but at least the RFC makes enough money out of the games to spread some dosh about
I know we all get a bit annoyed at the availability of seats for Twickenham, but at least the RFC makes enough money out of the games to spread some dosh about
And now the regions appear to be cash strapped, or are ERC playing games to try and bring them back into line?
But WRU have found an extra £2m to centrally contract players. Pity they didn't find it earlier and give it to the regions to help them keep the stars in Wales.
It's not just the Welsh who are struggling, the Australian clubs are suffering as well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:31:11:06:09 by Fozz1e.
But WRU have found an extra £2m to centrally contract players. Pity they didn't find it earlier and give it to the regions to help them keep the stars in Wales.
It's not just the Welsh who are struggling, the Australian clubs are suffering as well.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:01:31:11:06:09 by Fozz1e.
The argument from the WRU, backed up by an audit by PWC (IIRC) is that the regions are not value for money because they can't make a profit.
The trading conditions are tough because in the Pro 12 there are not many travelling supporters and teams, in particular the Irish provinces, field sides shorn of their biggest names. People don't want to see home matches with half of a visiting team missing and so will stay away.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
The trading conditions are tough because in the Pro 12 there are not many travelling supporters and teams, in particular the Irish provinces, field sides shorn of their biggest names. People don't want to see home matches with half of a visiting team missing and so will stay away.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
All the more reason why it makes sense for them to play in the Premiership then - they would see games where teams really are competing to win every time they play and travelling from Wales to the South West or South East is a darned sight easier than to Ireland Scotland or Italy!
Quote:Before I get accused of stirring or winding up in this it is my personal view of things as observed over the years.To Mega Therion
The argument from the WRU, backed up by an audit by PWC (IIRC) is that the regions are not value for money because they can't make a profit.
The trading conditions are tough because in the Pro 12 there are not many travelling supporters and teams, in particular the Irish provinces, field sides shorn of their biggest names. People don't want to see home matches with half of a visiting team missing and so will stay away.
But sure the Welsh also have half their team out and if full teams came over from Ireland how many would turn out to see a ritual slaughter of their own side.
There is something fundamentally wrong with the attitude of Welsh sides this past few years, there used to be great battles with the Irish sides where it was normal to win your home matches but unusual to get an away win and the scorelines were normally pretty tight but over the past couple of seasons it seems at times like the players don't want to be there and if they go behind just play out the 80 mins and head home, the Italians while they might not win many fight on to the last and rarely slack off.
Numerous times I have seen Welsh International players behaving like a league match was beneath them and being totally outplayed by a non international opposition player then turning into a different animal entirely when they pull on a Wales shirt, it really is a strange situation.
Anyway on the numbers attending the HEC match attendances are not much better than the league ones and they certainly have full sides, the only well attended matches are the local derbys.
Quote:To Mega Therion
The trading conditions are tough because in the Pro 12 there are not many travelling supporters and teams, in particular the Irish provinces, field sides shorn of their biggest names. People don't want to see home matches with half of a visiting team missing and so will stay away.
Northampton turned up at Ospreys with a full team in the HC. The home team had their best players on the pitch and there was plenty of travelling support yet the crowd was less than 8,500. Why think things will suddenly improve for the Welsh teams if they play in the AP? I think the problems lie with the teams and not with what league they play in.
The Welsh usually turn out when there's a chance to beat an English team. Presumably there isn't the same feeling with the Pro 12 teams.
Quote:Difficult to tell though as overall their crowd numbers have risen slightly in the past 10 years but then have started to go back down while most if not all other sides have had a steady increase in numbers even when sides have not done well.tpr's headmistress
The Welsh usually turn out when there's a chance to beat an English team. Presumably there isn't the same feeling with the Pro 12 teams.
Take Ospreys this year , those figures are not healthy, the Leinster HC match was probably about 4k Leinster fans, Scarlets is local derby hench both lots of fans, the Ulster one I have no idea how they got so many as probably only a hundred or so Ulster fans at that one, the Castres and Saints HC figures are abysmal
Sat, 21 Sep Edinburgh 8356
Fri, 04 Oct Ulster 10049
Sat, 12 Oct Leinster HC 12378
Fri, 25 Oct Dragons 8732
Fri, 15 Nov Cardiff LV 5706
Sat, 23 Nov Zebre 6529
Fri, 29 Nov Glasgow 5679
Fri, 13 Dec Castres HC 6385
Fri, 03 Jan Scarlets 13201
Sun, 12 Jan Northampton HC 8347
I think the real point is that we all want the Welsh clubs to prosper - and none of us see the WRU as being either supportive or constructive. In fact they are being obstructive and destructive. Frankly they have their own agenda and it is one that personally I find deeply offensive.
Quote:All clubs whether they are Welsh, Scottish, Italian, English, French or Irish need to keep going to keep the 6 Nations going which is the cash cow which keeps schools, local clubs and all going which at the end of the day is where professional players come from.BarnetSarrie
I think the real point is that we all want the Welsh clubs to prosper - and none of us see the WRU as being either supportive or constructive. In fact they are being obstructive and destructive. Frankly they have their own agenda and it is one that personally I find deeply offensive.
The WRU and RRW have been fighting since the RRW was formed but they now are using the RCC and Anglo/Welsh league idea as a means of trying to destroy each other from what I can see, the whole situation is totally mad and is not helping anyone at the end of the day.
A good example of the sort of daft thing that has been going on is their extra Autumn International after the IRB release time which then leaves the clubs heading into round 3 of the HEC with no match time together while everyone else has had their players back for 2 weeks and usually 1 match to get back together.
Quote:Rooster15Quote:All clubs whether they are Welsh, Scottish, Italian, English, French or Irish need to keep going to keep the 6 Nations going which is the cash cow which keeps schools, local clubs and all going which at the end of the day is where professional players come from.BarnetSarrie
I think the real point is that we all want the Welsh clubs to prosper - and none of us see the WRU as being either supportive or constructive. In fact they are being obstructive and destructive. Frankly they have their own agenda and it is one that personally I find deeply offensive.
The WRU and RRW have been fighting since the RRW was formed but they now are using the RCC and Anglo/Welsh league idea as a means of trying to destroy each other from what I can see, the whole situation is totally mad and is not helping anyone at the end of the day.
A good example of the sort of daft thing that has been going on is their extra Autumn International after the IRB release time which then leaves the clubs heading into round 3 of the HEC with no match time together while everyone else has had their players back for 2 weeks and usually 1 match to get back together.
It is - as you say - totally ridiculous. Having been a Sarries supporter through thick and thin - I sympathise with Welsh rugby fans at the moment. The regions may have been forced into existence - but they are now the face of club rugby in Wales. The WRU should be supporting them and working with them to foster new talent and encourage a growing supporter base - not doing everything in its power to undermine them. The uncertainty is very worrying - and the arrogance of the WRU and lack of consideration for grass roots Welsh rugby with their agenda of points scoring is frankly disgraceful.
Looks like Moffett has started an election campaign, but for what position in what organisation?
Rugby roadshow-either a one way street, or a dead end.
Rugby roadshow-either a one way street, or a dead end.
so do we think then the next 4 regions will be
1 – Blackwood RFC, - Glan-yr-Afon Park, Hall Street, Blackwood, Gwent, NP12 1NY
2 – Tycroes RFC, Cae Gelli, Penygarn Rd, Carms, Ammanford SA18 3NY
3 – Kenfig Hill RFC Pisgah Street, Kenfig Hill, Mid Glamorgan, CF33 6BU
4 – Taffs Well RFC Glan y Llyn Square, Maes Gwyn, Taffs Well, Cardiff.
1 – Blackwood RFC, - Glan-yr-Afon Park, Hall Street, Blackwood, Gwent, NP12 1NY
2 – Tycroes RFC, Cae Gelli, Penygarn Rd, Carms, Ammanford SA18 3NY
3 – Kenfig Hill RFC Pisgah Street, Kenfig Hill, Mid Glamorgan, CF33 6BU
4 – Taffs Well RFC Glan y Llyn Square, Maes Gwyn, Taffs Well, Cardiff.
Quote:JO'G
so do we think then the next 4 regions will be
1 – Blackwood RFC, - Glan-yr-Afon Park, Hall Street, Blackwood, Gwent, NP12 1NY
2 – Tycroes RFC, Cae Gelli, Penygarn Rd, Carms, Ammanford SA18 3NY
3 – Kenfig Hill RFC Pisgah Street, Kenfig Hill, Mid Glamorgan, CF33 6BU
4 – Taffs Well RFC Glan y Llyn Square, Maes Gwyn, Taffs Well, Cardiff.
Probably places which would rent him the hall for nothing......
Quote:tpr's headmistress
I note North Wales' supporters don't have an opinion.
The article says that he IS planning to hold a meeting in the north.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
At least PRL haven't told Tiggs and us to refuse to play our HC quarterfinals, yet!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Roger Lewis now speaking on behalf of the Regions it seems.
His usual ignorance of everything else that is going on around him.
If you want to read this go to the Wales Online site and look it up, see below.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:04:13:00:01 by Fozz1e.
His usual ignorance of everything else that is going on around him.
If you want to read this go to the Wales Online site and look it up, see below.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:04:13:00:01 by Fozz1e.
Quote:Fozz1e
URL removed, Ed
His usual ignorance of everything else that is going on around him.
DO NOT CLICK ONTO THE LINK.
I clicked onto link and got WINDOWS SAFETY MASTER Windows Safety Master is a rogue anti-virus program from the Rogue.FakeVimes family of computer infections. This program is classified as a rogue because it pretends to be an anti-virus program, but will instead displays bogus scan results, report non-existing computer infections, and does not allow you to run your normal applications.
To protect itself from being removed, Windows Safety Master will also terminate any application you try to run on your computer. It does this to protect itself from being removed by legitimate security programs.
Why am I sending this? Because a normally very caution CK55FEZ was stupid enough to believe it and allowed WINDOWS SAFETY MASTER to run a scan. As it was running I started to have doubts but could not cancel the run so basically switched of my PC.
As I write I have no idea whether I am well and truly b*gg*rd.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:04:13:09:34 by TonyTaff.
Not sure what's going on CK, it was copied directly from the Walesonline URL, and I've just clicked it again and don't get anything apart from the intended page.
I've removed it just to be on the safe side, folks can go to the WOL site and look for it directly. Can you edit out of your post in to be safe.
I've removed it just to be on the safe side, folks can go to the WOL site and look for it directly. Can you edit out of your post in to be safe.
Controversy re the Scrum V debate editing rumbles on.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Quote:Massive problem is the majority of Welsh supporters don't seem to see it that way, they have their local amature club and they have Wales and they have not really bought into the regions so you finish up with Scarlets being more or less supported by LLanelli rfc fans, and not by those in the surrounding valleys and townsBarnetSarrie
It is - as you say - totally ridiculous. Having been a Sarries supporter through thick and thin - I sympathise with Welsh rugby fans at the moment. The regions may have been forced into existence - but they are now the face of club rugby in Wales.
Now Lewis is dictating to the Regions that they must attend the ERC Meeting, from which they resigned from.
The Man is clearly trying to re-write history before it's even taken place.
The Man is clearly trying to re-write history before it's even taken place.
Quote:Fozz1e
Now Lewis is dictating to the Regions that they must attend the ERC Meeting, from which they resigned from.
That's a strange interpretation of the article...."urging" and "pressing" are the words used. Not quite as strong as "dictating" and "must", are they?. I sniff an agenda....
There was also an interesting piece about central Contracts and how poor old Sam Warburton may have shot himself in the foot by signing with the WRU. This week's rugby paper has a piece - very informative - by Nick Cain.
To paraphrase, he says he is stuck in the middle, leased back to Cardiff Blues gratis. But the Regions have already said they wont pick any centrally contracted player without a participation agreement with WRU, no matter if it costs them anything nor whether it is the Wales Captain. WRU wont let the regions play in either the Champions cup - or the now apparently signed agreement to play in the AP. Warburton wouldn't be able to play for the Blues in either - and therefore risks having less match time than everyone else in preparation for the internationals. Warburton apparently said in a newspaper column that he has a proviso that he could continue playing for Cardiff, but it seems he hasn't really understood the situation.
I blame the WRU largely for this. I think Nick Cain is right - they are so busy trying to score points over the regions that they ignore fundamentals - such as the welfare and futures of the players themselves and of the game in Wales. They rather pathetically state that they cant stand back and wait any longer whilst Wales loses all its best players - Duh - 11 have already gone. Others are staying with their clubs despite the offer of massive wads. You've got ONE. Bit late isn't it? Surely the best way was to pay the clubs a decent whack so that they could contract them - but no - because somewhere in the Union's mind is the crazily stupid idea that controlling the players magically gives them control of the game. I'm sure Roger Lewis and his fellow board members aren't completely disconnected from reality - but they are certainly trying to give us all that impression. Meanwhile Warburton may end up stuck between a rock and hard place.
To paraphrase, he says he is stuck in the middle, leased back to Cardiff Blues gratis. But the Regions have already said they wont pick any centrally contracted player without a participation agreement with WRU, no matter if it costs them anything nor whether it is the Wales Captain. WRU wont let the regions play in either the Champions cup - or the now apparently signed agreement to play in the AP. Warburton wouldn't be able to play for the Blues in either - and therefore risks having less match time than everyone else in preparation for the internationals. Warburton apparently said in a newspaper column that he has a proviso that he could continue playing for Cardiff, but it seems he hasn't really understood the situation.
I blame the WRU largely for this. I think Nick Cain is right - they are so busy trying to score points over the regions that they ignore fundamentals - such as the welfare and futures of the players themselves and of the game in Wales. They rather pathetically state that they cant stand back and wait any longer whilst Wales loses all its best players - Duh - 11 have already gone. Others are staying with their clubs despite the offer of massive wads. You've got ONE. Bit late isn't it? Surely the best way was to pay the clubs a decent whack so that they could contract them - but no - because somewhere in the Union's mind is the crazily stupid idea that controlling the players magically gives them control of the game. I'm sure Roger Lewis and his fellow board members aren't completely disconnected from reality - but they are certainly trying to give us all that impression. Meanwhile Warburton may end up stuck between a rock and hard place.
But not because I am even slightly Welsh Fozz1e!
Just that I find the whole thing horribly fascinating - and really a dreadful shame. As I said before, I hate to see the people who really matter - the fans and the players and coaches being ignored, because a very small group of closed minded, power hungry, short sighted (not literally) individuals with delusions of grandeur and a sense of superiority think they know better than everyone else. And I am not talking about the regions here .....
Its a bit like watching lemmings jump off a cliff. Only more slowly and deliberately -
Or -shame I cant paste this, but I drew a cartoon of Roger Lewis holding a shotgun, taking his shoe and sock off and pointing at his foot - Bang! (Actually I should have drawn it so that he missed it - that would have been even more appropriate!)
Just that I find the whole thing horribly fascinating - and really a dreadful shame. As I said before, I hate to see the people who really matter - the fans and the players and coaches being ignored, because a very small group of closed minded, power hungry, short sighted (not literally) individuals with delusions of grandeur and a sense of superiority think they know better than everyone else. And I am not talking about the regions here .....
Its a bit like watching lemmings jump off a cliff. Only more slowly and deliberately -
Or -shame I cant paste this, but I drew a cartoon of Roger Lewis holding a shotgun, taking his shoe and sock off and pointing at his foot - Bang! (Actually I should have drawn it so that he missed it - that would have been even more appropriate!)
You're missing your vocation BS, although almost all can see what's going on, except those of a @#$%& nature, who are still pursuing their suicidal course.
It seems that they may well be bypassed, the regions have taken a short trip up the M4;
RRW attend PRL Meeting.
It seems that they may well be bypassed, the regions have taken a short trip up the M4;
RRW attend PRL Meeting.
That is a very interesting article - though reports elsewhere suggest that mutual contracts have already been signed.
I think the key point is mentioned halfway through - what will the RFU do? Would they approve it even if the WRU don't? My guess is that they probably will - and if they were to, it would be with various provisos to safeguard the interests of the Championship clubs. It would certainly put them into sharp contrast with the WRU in a very positive way and gain them credibility with PRL and the clubs in future. Quite right too - this SHOULD be about partnership - not about top down governance.
Legally I suspect it would be impossible for the WRU to prevent the regions competing in the premiership. Restriction of trade and all that - especially since the article makes the point of stating that they have taken legal advice.
I think the key point is mentioned halfway through - what will the RFU do? Would they approve it even if the WRU don't? My guess is that they probably will - and if they were to, it would be with various provisos to safeguard the interests of the Championship clubs. It would certainly put them into sharp contrast with the WRU in a very positive way and gain them credibility with PRL and the clubs in future. Quite right too - this SHOULD be about partnership - not about top down governance.
Legally I suspect it would be impossible for the WRU to prevent the regions competing in the premiership. Restriction of trade and all that - especially since the article makes the point of stating that they have taken legal advice.
Well, sounds like the legal profession have taken over.
ERC await further detailed legal advice and continue to withhold payments
RRW were of course not represented, and interestingly the two Scottish Directors were absent, so maybe there is some sort of schism forming, although the Directors seem to have voted unanimously on legal advice. Maybe the beginning of the end, or end of the beginning as Winny would say. It will of course have serious implications for not only the Welsh Regions, but for all that rely on ERC Money such as the Irish.
ERC await further detailed legal advice and continue to withhold payments
RRW were of course not represented, and interestingly the two Scottish Directors were absent, so maybe there is some sort of schism forming, although the Directors seem to have voted unanimously on legal advice. Maybe the beginning of the end, or end of the beginning as Winny would say. It will of course have serious implications for not only the Welsh Regions, but for all that rely on ERC Money such as the Irish.
Incredulous.
So having - annoyed - for want of a polite expression, the regions in Wales (who like the English aren't represented at the meeting so it isn't actually unanimous at all incidentally -) they now proceed to jeopardise clubs across the Northern Hemisphere whilst they throw their broken toys out of the pram.
You really couldn't invent this stuff.
Somebody please liquidate the Company - because that's all ERC actually are.
So having - annoyed - for want of a polite expression, the regions in Wales (who like the English aren't represented at the meeting so it isn't actually unanimous at all incidentally -) they now proceed to jeopardise clubs across the Northern Hemisphere whilst they throw their broken toys out of the pram.
You really couldn't invent this stuff.
Somebody please liquidate the Company - because that's all ERC actually are.
Quote:BarnetSarrie
Incredulous.
So having - annoyed - for want of a polite expression, the regions in Wales (who like the English aren't represented at the meeting so it isn't actually unanimous at all incidentally -)
You really couldn't invent this stuff.
Hold on to your indignation there, Barnet - you'll do yourself a mischief. Peter Wheeler was at the meeting as the PRL rep on the ERC board and obviously voted to withhold the monies from the clubs he represents.
Incredulous!! You couldn't make it up!!
Unless of course......it's RIP for the ERC......
Oh I do hope so - it couldn't happen to a more deserving lot. Not personally of course - but as a corpulent entity.
Yup - now we can look forward to the marketing geniuses in the PRL and the RRW giving it a shot. Can't wait.
Last desperate act of a dying company. ERC are finished, they know it.
Since the English have already as per the contract handed in their notice, I expect them to sue the ERC for illegally holding monies that are due to them.
Bye bye ERC, you won't be missed.
Since the English have already as per the contract handed in their notice, I expect them to sue the ERC for illegally holding monies that are due to them.
Bye bye ERC, you won't be missed.
The other player who may be pulling strings, or applying financial/legal pressure could be Sky, they have a contract with ERC for European Rugby which isn't going to happen.
Scarlets worried not surprisingly, some Irish regions may start to be worried as well.
Shinpads - they could not possibly make a worse job of it than ERC - no one could. Stable door - lets get a lock fitted - or maybe not. Lets discuss it for a couple of years whilst the horses dig away at the stalls and get increasingly restless. So maybe we should try to tether the horses as well. Lets do each individual one. We wont feed them till they let us fit the ankle chains. OUCH! Did that big one with the red rose on its halter kick you? Give it a slap. Right - now about that lock. That's the door done! Where are the horses? No! There they go - galloping merrily over the brow of the hill ..... How will we get them back? - well we aren't about to start putting feed down to persuade them. We'll try to starve them back - even though the grass is greener over the brow of the hill.
Bonkers.
Meanwhile, there are dozens of players and staff families who don't know whether they can pay their mortgages or electricity and food bills, because a load of postulating idiots won't release the money they are owed. They cease at this point to be a joke and become a disgrace.
Bonkers.
Meanwhile, there are dozens of players and staff families who don't know whether they can pay their mortgages or electricity and food bills, because a load of postulating idiots won't release the money they are owed. They cease at this point to be a joke and become a disgrace.
It seems odd that Peter Wheeler would have voted for with-holding the payments. Perhaps the ERC directors had legal advice that they would personally fall foul of insolvency law if they made the payments? Perhaps PRL will petition for a winding-up!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
One would suspect so TT, particularly if they were ambushed by legal advice, probably had no other option. I smell a rat, ERC execs trying to string them along, "waiting for more detailed legal advice", prevarication m'lud.
I thought I could smell something BS, now I know it was all them horses...... ERC probably think they'll come up smiling of Roses.....
Quote:TonyTaff
It seems odd that Peter Wheeler would have voted for with-holding the payments. Perhaps the ERC directors had legal advice that they would personally fall foul of insolvency law if they made the payments? Perhaps PRL will petition for a winding-up!
I’m no member of the Peter Wheeler Fan club, but in his defence I suspect he had a legal obligation, as a Board Director of ERC, to act in the companies interests first and foremost.
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:06:13:16:54 by St Owen.
Quote:St OwenQuote:TonyTaff
It seems odd that Peter Wheeler would have voted for with-holding the payments. Perhaps the ERC directors had legal advice that they would personally fall foul of insolvency law if they made the payments? Perhaps PRL will petition for a winding-up!
I’m no member of the Peter Wheeler Fan club, but in his defence I suspect he had a legal obligation, as a Board Director of ERC, to act in the companies interests first and foremost.
He does have that obligation. What surprises me is that they would be advised that blocking the payments is in the company's interests, when failing to make them looks as though it's a breach of contract.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Maybe it's time for the Non-Execs too take over and do the correct thing, get rid of a poorly performing Exec., and go for an ordered wind down, or appoint an administrator if the Business is no longer a "going concern". Or is their an Irish version of Chapter 11? That may be one way Lux et al may try and cling on longer.
Whatever way they choose, the English will get the blame.... plus ca change...
Whatever way they choose, the English will get the blame.... plus ca change...
Interesting twist, or a Leopoard changing it's spots?
But considering the back ground, it's WRU who are the contractual party with ERC, and presumably WRU then contracts with the regions, so it may actually be WRU who owe the regions, and the fact that ERC is not paying WRU, should be of no contractual concern to the Regions.
Maybe WRU are trying to look to be the honest broker, but as they made their offer before yesterdays meeting, perhaps they knew more than they are letting on.
But considering the back ground, it's WRU who are the contractual party with ERC, and presumably WRU then contracts with the regions, so it may actually be WRU who owe the regions, and the fact that ERC is not paying WRU, should be of no contractual concern to the Regions.
Maybe WRU are trying to look to be the honest broker, but as they made their offer before yesterdays meeting, perhaps they knew more than they are letting on.
If I were a Region and that were the position I think I would want the payment from the WRU with no strings - not to have to take out a loan with them to cover their no -payment.
Don't the WRU inflate their accounts by putting these revenues through their accounts when the man on the Llandaff omnibus might think they should be pass-throughs?
Don't the WRU inflate their accounts by putting these revenues through their accounts when the man on the Llandaff omnibus might think they should be pass-throughs?
Bradley Davies has signed for W*sps. A much better idea than a central contract - sign for an English club with a Welsh DoR!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
I wouldn't be surprised if PRL threaten a lawsuit over this, and that should be ERC firmly dead and buried.
Quote:Ah but have they blocked payments as some are saying or have they just not decided to pay out a dividend ? subtle legal difference between the 2 but without knowing exact wording of contracts impossible for any of us to know which category the money falls into.TonyTaffQuote:St OwenQuote:TonyTaff
It seems odd that Peter Wheeler would have voted for with-holding the payments. Perhaps the ERC directors had legal advice that they would personally fall foul of insolvency law if they made the payments? Perhaps PRL will petition for a winding-up!
I’m no member of the Peter Wheeler Fan club, but in his defence I suspect he had a legal obligation, as a Board Director of ERC, to act in the companies interests first and foremost.
He does have that obligation. What surprises me is that they would be advised that blocking the payments is in the company's interests, when failing to make them looks as though it's a breach of contract.
Also if they pay out money knowing the company is going to be wound up they could get themselves in all sorts of trouble, add in that Peter Wheeler was still attending ERC meetings and did not divulge an interest in that PRL were selling rights to BT which could also be on dodgy territory depending how you take both aspects and obligations to both PRL links and ERC, could be a very lengthy discussion itself.
All the press descriptions of payments should be taken with a pinch of salt as some are quoting Welsh regions owed £800k and others €800k so they don't even know which currency it is in but I would assume Euro as it is based and taxed in Dublin, which is part of the reason I say dividends or payments as they are already making the most of the tax laws by running it in ROI so may also do the same with the payout of money so dividends are probably more tax efficient than a payment ?
Whatever way it goes the ERC sounds like it will be wound up anyway even if all 6 Unions agree and go ahead with a new body under control of the 6 Nations committee, however surely it could not be wound up untill after this years competitions finish unless receivers took over the running or it was transferred as a going concern ?
This could all be one massive legal and financial nightmare for all involved unless done properly and even then still could be.
So what's the answer for the clubs if they are to survive all of this Rooster?
I know which way I would go as the Regions - where there is clear money on the table, available to keep everyone employed and the bills paid. And that appears to be what they are doing.
I just cant understand how ERC have been quite as inept as they seem to have been.
I know which way I would go as the Regions - where there is clear money on the table, available to keep everyone employed and the bills paid. And that appears to be what they are doing.
I just cant understand how ERC have been quite as inept as they seem to have been.
Quote:If the RRW and WRU cannot come to an agreement the regions will have to fold up, cant join an Anglo Welsh league without WRU and RFU permission and they won't get it, they won't get it by going to court either as the case they are using as a precedent has actually nothing to do or has any similaritys with this instance and if they are so cash strapped at present that around £170k will sink them they don't even have the money to bring this to court anyway.BarnetSarrie
So what's the answer for the clubs if they are to survive all of this Rooster?
I know which way I would go as the Regions - where there is clear money on the table, available to keep everyone employed and the bills paid. And that appears to be what they are doing.
I just cant understand how ERC have been quite as inept as they seem to have been.
There has to be a lot of bull excrement being spouted to the press by both sides at present and if you listen to both sides one or other or more likely both are telling lies about the situation as nothing really adds up.
This has been running for years between WRU and RRW, well since the regions ever started to be exact, every time Celtic Rugby has gone into negotiations the Welsh have had an internal scrap but you probably have not noticed it as AP was not involved.
Some English clubs say the Irish rest players for the HEC, we don't actually do it because we want to but because IRFU restrict the number of matches the international squad play so then obviously the big matches get priority, the Welsh on the other hand seem to prefer to concentrate on the Wales matches at the expense of everything else and any of their best Wales players rarely make league appearances !
Now over the past few years the WRU have been trying to get central contracts going and RRW have been resisting it and to be honest I can't see why they are as the Welsh management takes their players anyway.
Now correct me if I am wrong on this point.
RFU compensate Sarries for the use of Owen Farrell but another way to do that is the RFU actually contract Owen then lend him back at no cost to Sarries for the duration of his contract although he may miss another couple of matches but would always be available for likes of HEC and league play off rounds and a match at least in the run up to those.
Would there actually be much wrong with that system versus your existing one ?
Now there have been figures chucked around by PRL, RRW and WRU of how much various parties get now and would get if an Anglo/Welsh deal came about but what seems to be mixed up in the system is how much would regions get if WRU stopped funding entirely which would happen if they split from WRU ? At present various figures seem to be existing funding plus AW potential funding but they certainly won't get both.
How will it end up, your guess is as good as mine but I would put money on a leagues running as at present and ERC folding and then the HEC Mk2 starting under 6 Nations management with some rehashed tv agreement between BT, Sky, Sky Italia and Canal+
If it heads to law which is the other option I see leagues operating as they are this year and the Welsh still being a mess.
Quote:Rooster15Quote:If the RRW and WRU cannot come to an agreement the regions will have to fold up, cant join an Anglo Welsh league without WRU and RFU permission and they won't get it, they won't get it by going to court either as the case they are using as a precedent has actually nothing to do or has any similaritys with this instance and if they are so cash strapped at present that around £170k will sink them they don't even have the money to bring this to court anyway.BarnetSarrie
So what's the answer for the clubs if they are to survive all of this Rooster?
I know which way I would go as the Regions - where there is clear money on the table, available to keep everyone employed and the bills paid. And that appears to be what they are doing.
I just cant understand how ERC have been quite as inept as they seem to have been.
There has to be a lot of bull excrement being spouted to the press by both sides at present and if you listen to both sides one or other or more likely both are telling lies about the situation as nothing really adds up.
This has been running for years between WRU and RRW, well since the regions ever started to be exact, every time Celtic Rugby has gone into negotiations the Welsh have had an internal scrap but you probably have not noticed it as AP was not involved.
Some English clubs say the Irish rest players for the HEC, we don't actually do it because we want to but because IRFU restrict the number of matches the international squad play so then obviously the big matches get priority, the Welsh on the other hand seem to prefer to concentrate on the Wales matches at the expense of everything else and any of their best Wales players rarely make league appearances !
Now over the past few years the WRU have been trying to get central contracts going and RRW have been resisting it and to be honest I can't see why they are as the Welsh management takes their players anyway.
Now correct me if I am wrong on this point.
RFU compensate Sarries for the use of Owen Farrell but another way to do that is the RFU actually contract Owen then lend him back at no cost to Sarries for the duration of his contract although he may miss another couple of matches but would always be available for likes of HEC and league play off rounds and a match at least in the run up to those.
Would there actually be much wrong with that system versus your existing one ?
Now there have been figures chucked around by PRL, RRW and WRU of how much various parties get now and would get if an Anglo/Welsh deal came about but what seems to be mixed up in the system is how much would regions get if WRU stopped funding entirely which would happen if they split from WRU ? At present various figures seem to be existing funding plus AW potential funding but they certainly won't get both.
How will it end up, your guess is as good as mine but I would put money on a leagues running as at present and ERC folding and then the HEC Mk2 starting under 6 Nations management with some rehashed tv agreement between BT, Sky, Sky Italia and Canal+
If it heads to law which is the other option I see leagues operating as they are this year and the Welsh still being a mess.
As to central contracts, its does matter to the paying public who go to the club matches as a season ticker holder and who therefore contribute to the clubs monies who want to see the best players play. Also we have relegation so it would hamper some clubs more than others if they were not able to play the players they wanted to. It works in leagues like the Rabo and the Super 15 where there is no relegation, can't see how it would work with relegation
Quote:No side plays their best players every week anyway and you don't have Farrell at present anyway, a central contract would mean him missing perhaps 2 extra matches but against that he does not count on your wage bill.Freddie Mercury
As to central contracts, its does matter to the paying public who go to the club matches as a season ticker holder and who therefore contribute to the clubs monies who want to see the best players play. Also we have relegation so it would hamper some clubs more than others if they were not able to play the players they wanted to. It works in leagues like the Rabo and the Super 15 where there is no relegation, can't see how it would work with relegation
Of course everyone wants to see all their best players each week but it is not practical to do that anyway, if you have more international players you then have less wages so you can get extra cover anyway.
Back on topic, the whole messy situation may become a bit more clear at the start of next week, there is a sort of truce while the 6 Nations matches are on
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:02:07:00:29:33 by Rooster15.
Quote:Rooster15
Some English clubs say the Irish rest players for the HEC, we don't actually do it because we want to but because IRFU restrict the number of matches the international squad play so then obviously the big matches get priority,
Priceless logic
If Owen was on a central contract, I very much doubt he would have played all those games at the start of the season when Hodgson was injured
Out of interest, would it be possible for the four Welsh regions to 'fold' and re-emerge as four individual entities,not connected to WRU, and then play in the AP as individual franchises? I imagine getting financial backing wouldn't be too difficult with the promise of enhanced TV rights and exposure
Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !
Out of interest, would it be possible for the four Welsh regions to 'fold' and re-emerge as four individual entities,not connected to WRU, and then play in the AP as individual franchises? I imagine getting financial backing wouldn't be too difficult with the promise of enhanced TV rights and exposure
Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !
Quote:Not unless they move across the border into England or the WRU permit them, the link below is a barristers viewpoint of the sort of problems that will arise if people start heading to court, if you then add in the Welsh mess and the various other interested parties you can see why this really needs settled as soon as possible without threats or even worse going to law.King Zak
Out of interest, would it be possible for the four Welsh regions to 'fold' and re-emerge as four individual entities,not connected to WRU, and then play in the AP as individual franchises? I imagine getting financial backing wouldn't be too difficult with the promise of enhanced TV rights and exposure
I have heard a similar view from another barrister and he cannot see why any of those involved would want law cases to try and sort this.
[rugbylaw.blogspot.co.uk]
Central contracts? The clubs should continue to have ultimate control over the players they have brought through. England have enough say in when they have them through contractual agreement. Plus of course the players themselves want to play for England as an honour and a reward for excellence. It is control enough. So no no no to central contracts. Start of the slippery slope to union domination - and as far as I am concerned this whole business has reinforced my view that this would be to the detriment of English rugby.
Note I said ENGLISH rugby - not England rugby.
Those two things should be harmonious. Sadly, they are not and I doubt that they ever really can be - unless the clubs are properly compensated in terms of being able to bring in equal replacements (impossible to sustain because when the original players come back - there would be a clash) or no premiership matches are played during any international period. OR a cap on the number of players from a particular team that England can filch, or at least a rule that they cant take two players from the same team playing in the same position. That would prevent the situation that for example, your first choice fly half and the second choice fly half from a side both get called up. (Without relegation the Rabo is a different animal entirely).
But none of that is going to happen - There will always be an issue for the clubs about international release. So they HAVE to be the ultimate arbiter.
Also impossible because of a)too many utterly pointless international fixtures designed to rake in the dosh for the RFU b)not enough dates in the season to fit the league games in around these.
Note I said ENGLISH rugby - not England rugby.
Those two things should be harmonious. Sadly, they are not and I doubt that they ever really can be - unless the clubs are properly compensated in terms of being able to bring in equal replacements (impossible to sustain because when the original players come back - there would be a clash) or no premiership matches are played during any international period. OR a cap on the number of players from a particular team that England can filch, or at least a rule that they cant take two players from the same team playing in the same position. That would prevent the situation that for example, your first choice fly half and the second choice fly half from a side both get called up. (Without relegation the Rabo is a different animal entirely).
But none of that is going to happen - There will always be an issue for the clubs about international release. So they HAVE to be the ultimate arbiter.
Also impossible because of a)too many utterly pointless international fixtures designed to rake in the dosh for the RFU b)not enough dates in the season to fit the league games in around these.
One thing that is abundantly clear amongst the Sarries players is their feeling or "togetherness" or "belonging" brought about by the way the club looks after them off the field. One benefit of this is shown in the team spirit on the field. Central contracts would drastically undermine this feeling and would be, without any doubt in my mind, to the detriment of Sarries.
Central contracts don't work unless it is for the majority of players, 2 or 3 which it looks like the WRU might get just confuses the matter even more.
What if the regions actually follow through on their threat of not playing contracted players. Sam is not going to be match fit for all those internationals..
What if the regions actually follow through on their threat of not playing contracted players. Sam is not going to be match fit for all those internationals..
In which case, as I previously said, Sam W has been very badly advised and may end up being piggy in the middle in all of this - a position which he should never have been left in, certainly by the WRU.
No worries, there will still be the mighty Zebre.
I would miss the occasional trip to Italy, always great fun.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
I would miss the occasional trip to Italy, always great fun.
Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?
Apparently, yesterday's Torygraph had an article stating that ERC is worried that they may be sued by SKY if the HC doesn't take place next year and this is the reason why the directors, even Peter Wheeler, voted to suspend payments.
Is this the gist of the article? [I can't access it without paying, as I've hit some threshold for expiry of free access.]
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Is this the gist of the article? [I can't access it without paying, as I've hit some threshold for expiry of free access.]
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
So next season SKY's coverage will be down to summer tours, and erm... Every 4 years Lions tours... Oh and autumn internationals.
Can't see it being long before BT outbid them for those as well.
Can't see it being long before BT outbid them for those as well.
Quote:TonyTaff
Apparently, yesterday's Torygraph had an article stating that ERC is worried that they may be sued by SKY if the HC doesn't take place next year and this is the reason why the directors, even Peter Wheeler, voted to suspend payments.
Is this the gist of the article? [I can't access it without paying, as I've hit some threshold for expiry of free access.]
I think this might be the article Mr Taff is referring to .
It is, but I still can't read it!
If there's anything of value in it, can someone summarize it, please?
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
If there's anything of value in it, can someone summarize it, please?
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
To quote the bit about Sky With the English clubs adamant that they will not play in a European competition next season under ERC governance, there is a real possibility that the ERC may not exist, and therefore it is especially concerned if Sky should decide to sue for non-delivery of a television contract signed in 2012.
The Telegraph also believes that an announcement concerning the Anglo/Welsh league may be made this week, however down across the Severn, they believe something else may happen Peace in our time
The rotund lady should go on holiday I think.
The Telegraph also believes that an announcement concerning the Anglo/Welsh league may be made this week, however down across the Severn, they believe something else may happen Peace in our time
The rotund lady should go on holiday I think.
Quote:TonyTaff
It is, but I still can't read it!
If there's anything of value in it, can someone summarize it, please?
The gist of it is :-
ERC made first of 5 installments of payments to Clubs in October but decided to withold next payment pending a meeting on 19th Feb. amid fears of what it's liabilities might be should it be wound up.
Should they not cough up the next payment there is a real possibility that the clubs may boycott the rest of this years tournament (Amlin & HC)
Welsh & English have signed an agreement effective Feb 1st for Anglo welsh league-work continues on that however English preference is still for pan European tournament without the ERC involved.
With English clubs adamant they will not partake in an ERC organised competition next year - The ERC fear that sky will sue them for non delivery of contract signed in 2012.
Thanks.
Many a true word spoken in jest. When the with-holding of the payment was announced, I went on Gwl@d to joke that the Welsh regions should boycott the remaining rounds of the HC and Amlin
It seems to have been removed by a moderator!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Many a true word spoken in jest. When the with-holding of the payment was announced, I went on Gwl@d to joke that the Welsh regions should boycott the remaining rounds of the HC and Amlin
It seems to have been removed by a moderator!It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
If ERC are worried about litigation risk from Sky, they really have got themselves into a mess. How could they have promised any level of HeC with English and French participation when notice had been given those clubs were withdrawing? Or are they concerned they will have penalties to pay in order to be able to surrender office premises and the like - and, of course, comfortable pay-offs to make to Mr Lux and the rest of the secretariat?
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Seems that there might be signs of a deal, but it still leaves the question of TV rights, and where the Welsh will play for most of the season.
However, it just says that “Representatives of the French and English clubs and the Welsh Regions were also in attendance." doesn't mean they were actually allowed to negotiate, or agreed with the statement.
However, it just says that “Representatives of the French and English clubs and the Welsh Regions were also in attendance." doesn't mean they were actually allowed to negotiate, or agreed with the statement.
Quote:
The paper quotes an unnamed administrator as saying: "We haven't got a solution yet but we have taken a huge step forward. Attitudes have changed, not least among the Unions who realise that they were in some trouble with their Sky contract. There's an increasing recognition that those running the English clubs and the Welsh regions are not a bunch of gold-diggers but people who love rugby and want to run a better competition.
Unquote
I wonder how long it will take that 'increasing recognition' to spread to the keyboard warriors of the Emerald Isle'
The paper quotes an unnamed administrator as saying: "We haven't got a solution yet but we have taken a huge step forward. Attitudes have changed, not least among the Unions who realise that they were in some trouble with their Sky contract. There's an increasing recognition that those running the English clubs and the Welsh regions are not a bunch of gold-diggers but people who love rugby and want to run a better competition.
Unquote
I wonder how long it will take that 'increasing recognition' to spread to the keyboard warriors of the Emerald Isle'
Quote:AlanE
I wonder how long it will take that 'increasing recognition' to spread to the keyboard warriors of the Emerald Isle'
Probably as long as it takes the "unnamed administrator" to acquire a name.
Lewis "doesn't negotiate through the media" and represents WRU & the Regions interests
“The regions were part of the meeting on Wednesday and they did not demure from that particular structure.
“They were supportive of the structure last autumn so we move forward.”
Doesn't mean they actually agreed, or am I being cynical?
“The regions were part of the meeting on Wednesday and they did not demure from that particular structure.
“They were supportive of the structure last autumn so we move forward.”
Doesn't mean they actually agreed, or am I being cynical?
Don't you just love journalists who can't spell or maybe it was a 'modest or ladylike' (demure) remark.
Quote:Fozz1e
Lewis "doesn't negotiate through the media" and represents WRU & the Regions interests
“The regions were part of the meeting on Wednesday and they did not demure from that particular structure.
“They were supportive of the structure last autumn so we move forward.”
Doesn't mean they actually agreed, or am I being cynical?
Seems Lewis wasn't representing RRW after all.....
For anyone who is interested.
The welsh and italian teams will be staying in the pro12. The new european competition is agreed and is just waiting for the tv companies to sort out the mess between them. I would imagine that being professionals they will sort it in far shorter time than the rugby fraternity could manage.
The general view is that there may be no more payouts from the ERC as it is likely to be wound up and could not legally pay out any cash until any and all claims against it from all creditors or anyone like Sky who might want to sue them. This is probably not going to go down well with the welsh regions who needed a loan to get over missing one payment.
The welsh and italian teams will be staying in the pro12. The new european competition is agreed and is just waiting for the tv companies to sort out the mess between them. I would imagine that being professionals they will sort it in far shorter time than the rugby fraternity could manage.
The general view is that there may be no more payouts from the ERC as it is likely to be wound up and could not legally pay out any cash until any and all claims against it from all creditors or anyone like Sky who might want to sue them. This is probably not going to go down well with the welsh regions who needed a loan to get over missing one payment.
ERC's biggest liability will be paying off Lux and topping up his pension pot.
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade
🌻🌻🌻
You couldn't make it up!You really couldn't make it up!
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:03:03:13:04:45 by TonyTaff.
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:03:03:13:04:45 by TonyTaff.
Has everyone seen the latest on this fiasco in the rugby paper? That Moffett is now suing the WRU for defamation! - apparently he publicly criticised their finances and as a consequence they sent an email accusing him of 'scurrilous comment' and as being 'inaccurate'. He has given them till Monday last to apologise - which, surprise! they didn't - and the result is that the WRU are now facing war on a second front.
I cant decide whether this is actually funny or tragic - if it's funny, it's definitely in the category of 'farce'.
I cant decide whether this is actually funny or tragic - if it's funny, it's definitely in the category of 'farce'.
Sounds like Moffett is looking for publicity, I haven't seen any comment from the Regions (or anyone else really) supporting him at all. The WRU probably see him as an irritant rather than anything substantive.
It all appears to be in the hands of the TV companies to sort out, and they haven't said anything throughout this whole fracas. I wouldn't expect anything to leak out until a deal is properly sorted, or they fall out completely.
It all appears to be in the hands of the TV companies to sort out, and they haven't said anything throughout this whole fracas. I wouldn't expect anything to leak out until a deal is properly sorted, or they fall out completely.
Quote:Fozz1e
It all appears to be in the hands of the TV companies to sort out, and they haven't said anything throughout this whole fracas. I wouldn't expect anything to leak out until a deal is properly sorted, or they fall out completely.
the difference between companies and the unions
one sorts out their differences and then announces the deal
the other announces their differences and bu&&er the deal
You are probably right Fozz1e because he already made several public comments about seeking re-election to the WRU and riding to the rescue a la white knight!! It certainly wouldn't do him any good to have negative comments strewn around the rugby community. Mr Moffett clearly has a great deal of confidence in himself!
But it does beg the question, what did the WRU get so het up about re; their finances? I wonder what mismanagement he was actually accusing them of?
But it does beg the question, what did the WRU get so het up about re; their finances? I wonder what mismanagement he was actually accusing them of?
Quote:BarnetSarrie
But it does beg the question, what did the WRU get so het up about re; their finances? I wonder what mismanagement he was actually accusing them of?
He probably felt that the regions were being starved of cash from the WRU, and that this amounted to "mismanagement", allegedly, so his claim, but who knows what's in their minds.
It does look like that - he apparently claimed the WRU had a stash of more than £11 million of which over half of that sum could have helped the clubs to stave off their financial difficulties and 'knowingly keeping the clubs poor'.
Given the way the WRU behaved over central contracts and refusing to pay the money the regions were due, I can't help but think that it isn't a ridiculous conclusion to draw - but washing all this dirty linen in public does no one any good. Why cant the IRB do something useful for a change and bang their respective egos together?
Given the way the WRU behaved over central contracts and refusing to pay the money the regions were due, I can't help but think that it isn't a ridiculous conclusion to draw - but washing all this dirty linen in public does no one any good. Why cant the IRB do something useful for a change and bang their respective egos together?
If you have a spare hour, you might like to read the RRW's response to questions raised by the Welsh Assembly
It's dated 24th Feb, but only released last week.
It's dated 24th Feb, but only released last week.
It seems the Regions were right to hold out, it looks like they are in line for a more realistic return, lets hope it goes directly to them, and not via the WRU.
Quote:Fozz1e
It seems the Regions were right to hold out, it looks like they are in line for a more realistic return, lets hope it goes directly to them, and not via the WRU.
Strange one that. The Pro12 have found a really bizarre way to split the money up to the clubs.
Well, maybe I spoke to soon, if you can believe the WRU, all is rosy, but then along comes Moffett trying to discredit the whole thing.
Is he right, or just s&*%t stirring for his own ends?
Who would trust the WRU, but equally this "savior of Welsh Rugby" seems to be just the opposite.
Answers on a postcard to ......
Is he right, or just s&*%t stirring for his own ends?
Who would trust the WRU, but equally this "savior of Welsh Rugby" seems to be just the opposite.
Answers on a postcard to ......
Well, Europe may have been sorted out, but they are "as far apart as ever" in the principality.
Seems that whilst this meeting is cancelled, they are making progress behind the scenes, wish them well.
Did anyone say the Welsh are inclined to be garrulous?
If this is progress then my rectum is the Queen of Sheba
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
If this is progress then my rectum is the Queen of Sheba
It's a long time since Sports network paid anything!
The whole ERC row is a couple of toddlers squabbling over a biscuit compared to what's going on down there.
I've been following it closely for months, mainly through Twitter, and the factions* demanding the regions be dissovled and five "super clubs" be created are delusional bordering on the certifiable.
There isn't enough money, support or talent to facilitate the existing four, never mind five teams who can compete not only in the Pro 12, but in Europe.
*Pontypridd RFC, its supporters, and its local MP.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
I've been following it closely for months, mainly through Twitter, and the factions* demanding the regions be dissovled and five "super clubs" be created are delusional bordering on the certifiable.
There isn't enough money, support or talent to facilitate the existing four, never mind five teams who can compete not only in the Pro 12, but in Europe.
*Pontypridd RFC, its supporters, and its local MP.
Who removed my H.R. Giger picture?
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