Yorkshire Carnegie
Martin Johnson's England
By Andy Brown
March 21 2010
We've just had another Six Nations tournament completed with the usual amount of ebb and flow in form of each of the six teams, and the usual amount of bar room coaching taking place in the press and on the terraces. Martin Johnson has constantly told us that the England team are progressing, and coming into increasing rabid criticism from the press for holding this view. But could he be right?
The beginning of this Premiership season has seen a similar start for Leeds. After what seemed a dream draw for the first few games of the season, pitting us against our perceived nearest rivals for the relegation battle, we struggled to a home draw against Newcastle and suffered an away defeat to Worcester. And it seemed to go downhill from there. Throughout this time, Andy Key and Neil Back have remained positive and – although acknowledging there have been poor performances – continue to profess the merits of the team they are coaching.
Many Leeds fans – and I have to fess up here and say I was one of these – thought the task was hopeless following the humiliating defeat to Bourgoin in the European Cup, where it looked like our team couldn't buy a win. England reached their nadir with the penultimate game against the Scots. Widely acknowledged as the weakest team in the Six Nations by the bar room pundits, the highland hoardes repelled the English attempts on their line and the game dribbled to a thoroughly boring draw.
In both cases, arms were thrown aloft, and “Something Must Be Done” was howled by all and sundry.
In both cases, Back and Johnson ignored what was going on around them, and continued to insist their respective teams were getting better. Now we have the benefit of a degree of hindsight, I think both these coaching teams were much more right about things and the rest of us. Leeds have gotten better, and it is now easy to see that the group in the blue and amber are a match for any team in the Premiership. Back has selected his own players according to his own agenda, and given them the chance to show their worth. Protestations of “Why isn't Armstrong playing?” or “Oakley shouldn't be starting” went unheeded.
Johnson's position is more ambiguous. With the vastly improved spectacle (from an England fans' point of view) on offer at the Stade de France, the changes to his team that Johnson made for that game look as if that is what was needed all along. Foden and Aston linked very well and looked dangerous, and Toby Flood looked confident and assured with the number 10 on his back rather than the accustomed 21. But rugby is a team game and about a whole group of players being able to slot in where they are needed without disrupting the team togetherness on the pitch. It's taken the whole Six Nations for this to happen for England, and although a plucky loss (which no England fan should be happy about), the signs are there now that this team can play a bit.
“The whole Six Nations”. That's five games in total. Neil Back's Leeds have taken considerably longer than this, and their job isn't yet done. All in all, I think Johnson's done all right.
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Discussion started by TykesRugby.co.uk (IP Logged), 21/03/2010 17:08
21/03/2010 17:08
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He could do better though. he seemed to still want give those tried & tested the chance why in the last game did Foden start and what he a player he was Ashton looked good could get better, there are areas to improve namely in the Locking department and Captain
I disagree with you Andy. I don't think Johnson has done alright at all. He's not just been in charge for this Six Nations tournament - he's been in charge for 23 months.
Have a look at this article about his time in charge. It contains some interesting stats which reveal a lot about how England have shrivelled and died under his leadership.
[www.bbc.co.uk]
OK, so there were plenty of positives to take out the game against France. I'm sure Johnno has his reasons for persisting with players who were struggling for form, but after yesterday's display his selection policy made him look foolish. Why no Foden and Ashton before the final game? And how silly did it look when Lewis Moody was named captain for the final game, a week after he wasn't deemed good enough for the starting XV?
England's performance against France went some way to mask the inadequacies in the England set up. Andrew, Wells, Ford and Johnno have got some serious work to do in the run up to the World Cup.
____________________________________________________________
Please check out my rugby blog at: [studsonthe22.blogspot.com]
Have a look at this article about his time in charge. It contains some interesting stats which reveal a lot about how England have shrivelled and died under his leadership.
[www.bbc.co.uk]
OK, so there were plenty of positives to take out the game against France. I'm sure Johnno has his reasons for persisting with players who were struggling for form, but after yesterday's display his selection policy made him look foolish. Why no Foden and Ashton before the final game? And how silly did it look when Lewis Moody was named captain for the final game, a week after he wasn't deemed good enough for the starting XV?
England's performance against France went some way to mask the inadequacies in the England set up. Andrew, Wells, Ford and Johnno have got some serious work to do in the run up to the World Cup.
____________________________________________________________
Please check out my rugby blog at: [studsonthe22.blogspot.com]
I can only assume that Johnno played Foden and Ashton because he was under pressure to do so, or surely they would have started earlier in the tournament?
If that is true, it doesn't say a lot about Johnson's talent spotting abilities, which further supports the "he picks his mates" position.
While it was undoubtedly a better performance from England, we still lost.
Suffering on the Leeds and Yorkshire roller-coaster since 2001
If that is true, it doesn't say a lot about Johnson's talent spotting abilities, which further supports the "he picks his mates" position.
While it was undoubtedly a better performance from England, we still lost.
Suffering on the Leeds and Yorkshire roller-coaster since 2001
After the France game it shows we can compete and actually play well we must take that desire into the next six nations.
I also feel that with more game time on the wing Ashton will become even better, Foden needs to stay at 15 and Flood proved me wrong and played well at international level for once.
More consistancy in the team selection will help we cant be chopping and changing all the time apart from Fourie
.
Pain is only temporary but victory is forever
I also feel that with more game time on the wing Ashton will become even better, Foden needs to stay at 15 and Flood proved me wrong and played well at international level for once.
More consistancy in the team selection will help we cant be chopping and changing all the time apart from Fourie
.Pain is only temporary but victory is forever
Flood has never impressed me - he falls over too easily.
Suffering on the Leeds and Yorkshire roller-coaster since 2001
Suffering on the Leeds and Yorkshire roller-coaster since 2001
We can all name better starting XVs in hindsight - but the question I'd ask is why do most of the players under-perform when they put on the white shirt?
Foden was awesome yesterday - so why do we have to wait for the last match of the series for him to start? Delon Armitage has looked a shadow of himself this tournament - he's kicked time after time when last year he would have run with the ball.
And if Tom Palmer can play like that how come he only joined the squad as a makeweight replacement? He gave by far the best lock performance in a white shirt this season. I'd like to see him and Lawes together, with Kennedy in the mix too when he returns from injury. I'll give Ashton another chance in the summer, I know he is by far the top try scorer in the GP but IMHO his judgement was awful yesterday - can we put it down to nerves? And as for hi team-mate in the number 2 shirt - "GO AWAY AND LEARN YOUR BASICS SON".
There's cause for optimism there - but only if the team can gain confidence from yesterday's performance and throw the shackles away.
Foden was awesome yesterday - so why do we have to wait for the last match of the series for him to start? Delon Armitage has looked a shadow of himself this tournament - he's kicked time after time when last year he would have run with the ball.
And if Tom Palmer can play like that how come he only joined the squad as a makeweight replacement? He gave by far the best lock performance in a white shirt this season. I'd like to see him and Lawes together, with Kennedy in the mix too when he returns from injury. I'll give Ashton another chance in the summer, I know he is by far the top try scorer in the GP but IMHO his judgement was awful yesterday - can we put it down to nerves? And as for hi team-mate in the number 2 shirt - "GO AWAY AND LEARN YOUR BASICS SON".
There's cause for optimism there - but only if the team can gain confidence from yesterday's performance and throw the shackles away.
It's not in Hindsight though Mark. It's was painfully obvious to me that players such as Banahan and Monye weren't of the required level, but they were selected for England with talent being wasted in the GP. Johnson's had a shocker.
RFU have a difficult decision now....will they take the bull by the horns and make the decision or shirk away from it.
Sack him now or after the Autumn internationals that's the decision.
Sack him now or after the Autumn internationals that's the decision.
I am not sure if anyone who selects Louis Deacon and Borthwick in the 2nd row can be defended when they are players like Palmer, Lawes and Kennedy knocking about.
England are never going to do much under Johnson. Any international team is unlikely to flourish under someone who has zero management experience.
England are never going to do much under Johnson. Any international team is unlikely to flourish under someone who has zero management experience.
I would like to know how much of the team picking is down to Johnson, and how he is 'influenced' by those above him? After that, for all he was a great player, this does noes not make a great manager. I only saw the first and last games due to being away, and the performance against France was a lot better, but the team has dropped back so far since CW walked away its scarry and a masive concern.
The next coach needs to set some ground rules then....and make sure he is completely in charge.
Maybe this is why they will not appoint a Saffa or an ex AB.
Maybe this is why they will not appoint a Saffa or an ex AB.
Johnno will not go before NZ in 2011 unless he resigns, I still think he might turn out ok, however its the assistant coaches that need looking primarily John Wells position
What is pretty scary is the thought that Ireland and France, and probably Scotland too, have a firm idea of who their best team is.
We have no such idea...only a handful of players have really nailed down their positions.
We have no such idea...only a handful of players have really nailed down their positions.
There is alot of uncertainty around the Irish front row going forward, but I agree with the comment
I think there is a bit of a no win situation for who ever coaches England unless they are willing to admit that we are in a bit of a hole and that we have to rebuild which may involve a few reverse steps.
The mentality of win at all costs couple with a massive degree of loyalty has led to a conservative team choice being played over and over in the hope that they will get better.
I am not arguing that it works playing a load on new caps in one tranche but i really feel that this 6 nations was a perfect chance to give some of the players with a bright future a chance to prove themselves. Instead we (at least me) are left wondering if Ashton and Foden had started from game 1, where the England team would be now.
The mentality of win at all costs couple with a massive degree of loyalty has led to a conservative team choice being played over and over in the hope that they will get better.
I am not arguing that it works playing a load on new caps in one tranche but i really feel that this 6 nations was a perfect chance to give some of the players with a bright future a chance to prove themselves. Instead we (at least me) are left wondering if Ashton and Foden had started from game 1, where the England team would be now.
Quote:FOR2008
get White in
Julian White? he is not even starting for Leicester, Cole has done well considering he is only 22 and has 6 caps he will get better he needs some Beef behind him in the 2nd row though and a solid scrummaging hooker, the Front Row will be better when Sheridan is back
Barry? Oh no, he's dead. And not English.
____________________________________________________________
Please check out my rugby blog at: [studsonthe22.blogspot.com]
____________________________________________________________
Please check out my rugby blog at: [studsonthe22.blogspot.com]
Next time i would definatly have Palmer over Deacon.
Pain is only temporary but victory is forever
Pain is only temporary but victory is forever
The RFU wouldn't even consider employing anyone outside their own circle - I think you know that "Fan" and could you see Jake White working with Barron and Andrew? - I think you know that answer.
Is Keith Barwell lining up Jim Mallender to be involved in the set-up? - be interesting to see if that happens, as that could start a real power struggle amongst the blazers again
Is Keith Barwell lining up Jim Mallender to be involved in the set-up? - be interesting to see if that happens, as that could start a real power struggle amongst the blazers again
Well Catchy, there's your problem then. The RFU won't appoint the right people. In fact, I prefer Loosy's proposition of Julian White, to the current crop!
At last we have a sensible comment..the RFU wont appoint the right people....how true has that been for years and years and years
Of course Barron is about to depart and with him goes Andrew's chief protection. The Times are running a story that Woodward is being lined up to take over from Andrew.
It wouldn't cost the RFU a lot as Andrew is on 12 month rolling contracts - so no big payouts.
This might be an improvement as Woodward and Johnson get on but Woodward would certainly be the boss which means that Johnson's coaching staff would get a shaking up - no more Leicester mafia
It wouldn't cost the RFU a lot as Andrew is on 12 month rolling contracts - so no big payouts.
This might be an improvement as Woodward and Johnson get on but Woodward would certainly be the boss which means that Johnson's coaching staff would get a shaking up - no more Leicester mafia
Woodward was a fine leader and quite rightly deserves nothing but respect for 2003 and the lead up to it.......but is it a backward step bringing him back on board. I think that it probably will be.
Freddy: Backward steps are what English rugby is all about at the moment!
Suffering on the Leeds and Yorkshire roller-coaster since 2001
Suffering on the Leeds and Yorkshire roller-coaster since 2001
Good point Tyke-Woody but he doesn't suffer fools gladly which would be bad news for most of that coaching team.
Freddy - Remember we Sacked Gatland in an Edinburgh Hotel Car Park while Eddie sat and watched from the bus - "Et Tu Brut" Indeed !!
Well from my side the French were awful on Saturday night, they played with none of the style or anything was really awfull but the thing was the French were that bad but they still beat England which sort of shows how bad England are, that wouldn't have happend last 6 nations and it didn't the French were poor that day too and got well beat, to me England need to sort out the coaching staff now me been me and not really knowing who you could put incharge all I can say is the current set just arn't doing anything at all its dull and boring rugby, and I know England have a chance in every game they play but right now they are dropping into a second tier rugby country and to me thats sad to see
Some say he has a Tykes flag with team signatures on.
Others say that he's doing the same to the Carnegie flag,
All we know is that he's called Leeds carnegie signed flag.
Some say he has a Tykes flag with team signatures on.
Others say that he's doing the same to the Carnegie flag,
All we know is that he's called Leeds carnegie signed flag.
no mate, the French quite simply came up against a major nation. I've seen the game and England should have won.
England could have won, and were the better team in the second half. I do think France deserved it though. My concern for England is the failure to bring in players as many have said Foden and ashton should have come into the side earlier. The inability or refusal to pick on performance and to develop our game is the potential downfall for England as a national team.
Fan - only thing that the final performance of the 6 Nations by England in Paris did was to paper over the cracks and validate the coaching and management style of Andrew/Johnson, which isn't one that's going to win any World Cups or major games on present evidence.
Management by Committee is and always has been the way of the RFU and is the main reason why many top coaches wouldn't touch the job with a very large pole - as we discussed earlier in this thread with Jake White
Management by Committee is and always has been the way of the RFU and is the main reason why many top coaches wouldn't touch the job with a very large pole - as we discussed earlier in this thread with Jake White
The current England team and setup is, by popular opinion, seen to be in disarray.
However, we are led to belive that all the pieces are in place below the senior team following the last review, and it is only a matter of time before the junior structures start to bear fruit. To this end it will be interesting to see the make-ups of both the Saxons and the Senior squads for this summer's tours, as hopefully these will be the squads in which new players can be blooded.
I would suggest that this summer will be very important for Messrs Andrew and Johnson, much more so than the 6N.
However, we are led to belive that all the pieces are in place below the senior team following the last review, and it is only a matter of time before the junior structures start to bear fruit. To this end it will be interesting to see the make-ups of both the Saxons and the Senior squads for this summer's tours, as hopefully these will be the squads in which new players can be blooded.
I would suggest that this summer will be very important for Messrs Andrew and Johnson, much more so than the 6N.
Return of Sir Clive....
[www.dailymail.co.uk]
"A witty saying proves nothing."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)
[www.dailymail.co.uk]
"A witty saying proves nothing."
- Voltaire (1694-1778)
Is any involvement of Woodward still going back to the Golden Era and far too much sentiment involved and no recent Rugby involvement to back up any appointment
Catchy
Normally I would agree with you but Woodward is the only person who could do the Andrew job. A lot of people when it was set up thought the job description had been written for him.
The only reason he left last time and then didn't get the Andrew job was Francis Barron who wanted his own @#$%& licker and not somebody who would stand up for himself. He knows his way round the Twickenham machine and can cover Jonno's back as necessary. Anybody who has studied Irish rugby politics as long as you have Catchy should always know that its always worth having in your corner the person who knows where the bodies are buried.
The thing about Sir Clive is he knows how to get the best out of people when he has the time to do it. Remember how long it took to put together the England winning side.
The major blemish on his record was that disatrous lions tour where he tried to impose the English way of doing things on the Celtic nations and put his faith in English players that were past their sell by date. However I've always felt he was a man who learns by his mistakes and I don't think he would preside over such a debacle again.
Normally I would agree with you but Woodward is the only person who could do the Andrew job. A lot of people when it was set up thought the job description had been written for him.
The only reason he left last time and then didn't get the Andrew job was Francis Barron who wanted his own @#$%& licker and not somebody who would stand up for himself. He knows his way round the Twickenham machine and can cover Jonno's back as necessary. Anybody who has studied Irish rugby politics as long as you have Catchy should always know that its always worth having in your corner the person who knows where the bodies are buried.
The thing about Sir Clive is he knows how to get the best out of people when he has the time to do it. Remember how long it took to put together the England winning side.
The major blemish on his record was that disatrous lions tour where he tried to impose the English way of doing things on the Celtic nations and put his faith in English players that were past their sell by date. However I've always felt he was a man who learns by his mistakes and I don't think he would preside over such a debacle again.
I was and still am to an extent a Clive Woodward fan. However the only thing that rankles with me about him is that when he lft the RFU he professed that he never liked rugby and that football was his number one sport. I would need him to convince me a great deal about his feelings for our sport if he ever came back.
Of course, it could be that this story has just been printed a week early!
Of course, it could be that this story has just been printed a week early!
Ian - I would be inclined to agree with you in certain senses with the sentimens of knowing how the waters of the RFU lie and how it's run and what needed to be done - but note that I said NEEDED there, as there's been a lot gone on in the game since he left and not necessarily very good.
I'm sure that he would talk a good game once more - but there's a major re-building job to be done once more as he previously had to do and remember he was as guilty as anyone for sitting back on his knighthood and his laurels after 2003 and basking in the glory.
His Knighthood and the subsequent gongs that all and sundry got post-2003 is the main point of contention with Barron, as he was the only one out of the RWC organisation that came away with Diddly-squat and that turned him even more bitter than he already was towards some people in the RFU and certainly against Woodward.
I do think it needs at least one coach to come in from the outside of the RFU for once and give the game a shake-up as it needs it in England and far too many accusations of nepotism are surrounding the game over there - we had to bring in Ashton and then Gatland to move it forwards after Davison and Fitzgerald (we'll conveniently forget about Murray Kydd Shall we ? !!!)
I'm sure that he would talk a good game once more - but there's a major re-building job to be done once more as he previously had to do and remember he was as guilty as anyone for sitting back on his knighthood and his laurels after 2003 and basking in the glory.
His Knighthood and the subsequent gongs that all and sundry got post-2003 is the main point of contention with Barron, as he was the only one out of the RWC organisation that came away with Diddly-squat and that turned him even more bitter than he already was towards some people in the RFU and certainly against Woodward.
I do think it needs at least one coach to come in from the outside of the RFU for once and give the game a shake-up as it needs it in England and far too many accusations of nepotism are surrounding the game over there - we had to bring in Ashton and then Gatland to move it forwards after Davison and Fitzgerald (we'll conveniently forget about Murray Kydd Shall we ? !!!)
One of the things that may stand to Woodwards' credit is that he will take on, in robust fashion, the inertia in the RFU boardroom and deal positively with the committee culture.
If Woodward is able to do this, just like he had to do pre 2003 this will leave whoever coaches the team to get on with the job free of interfearance. Sounds very good in theory !
If Woodward is able to do this, just like he had to do pre 2003 this will leave whoever coaches the team to get on with the job free of interfearance. Sounds very good in theory !
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