Bath
LE HANDICAP? BORDEAUX v BATH ECC SEMI FINAL
Electric match up
By shipwrecked
April 28 2026
The European Champions Cup has developed into an unbalanced competition where some clubs simply have a head start depending on which part of Europe you come from.This discrepancy is like getting your old-fashioned match program printed on high gloss paper compared to that diaphanous absorbent paper comics were printed on that yellows with age. It looks the same from a distance but clearly is different when you get your hands on it.The major bone of contention is evidently the salary cap. The top 14 salary cap is currently £9.3 million compared with the Prem cap of £6.4 million and an undefined URC cap around £4.5 million, that is in England a 45% uplift or almost double that for URC clubs compared to French clubs.
It doesn’t stop there though, regular games for Bordeaux Bègles are at the Stade Chaban-Delmas, whose basic capacity of 34,462 dwarves even the proposed hugely upgraded Rec. with the option to use the Stade Atlantique stadium at 42,115 for bigger games. The playing facilities are just better in France.
Even allocating stadiums for the semi-finals in the countries of France and Ireland there seems injustice. The French venue selected is the Stade Atlantique Bordeaux this is effectively Bordeaux's home stadium. The Irish venue selected as the Aviva Stadium in Dublin - a venue which Leinster frequently use for big home matches. This places the likes of Bath and Toulon on the back foot in terms of ground familiarity. The phrase 'Le Handicap' comes to mind!
Nonetheless, Sunday’s second semi promises to be the “Match of the Day”, or indeed the weekend, including several juicy individual Bordeaux v Bath match ups, such as the duel between electric eel Louis Bielle-Biarrey and Bath speedster Henry Arundell.
So, what does this mean in terms of squad quality? Bordeaux has a squad that contains 19 French internationals and an additional 10 internationals from other countries.
JvG is renowned for his rotation of Bath’s top players keeping a core of 10 or so and rotating the balance. Bordeaux Bègles can simply select two full sides with no need to rotate.
Bath hold back the likes of Thomas du Toit as an impact player, Bordeaux Bègles have a full battery of huge quality props and the luxury of bringing on Ben Tameifuna (Big Ben) 150 Kg and 6’0” as sides tire towards the end of the game.
This preview isn’t intended to scare, although I admit to being worried but simply highlight the immense task facing Bath on Sunday May 3rd in Bordeaux.
Is the result a foregone conclusion? Not at all in my view. Sport is littered with famous underdog performances examples being Japan beating South Africa in the 2015 Rugby World Cup, both Newport RFC and Llanelli beaten the all-conquering touring All blacks, Leicester won the Premier League at 500-1 odd in 2016.
What’s more other factors now come into play in the modern game such as discipline, match day injury, The TMO (Television Match Official), the weather, even Law changes can all directly influence games.
Red and Yellow cards have increased in frequency with the Laws surrounding tackle height removing key players. Tries can be ruled out for offences that occurred several phases previously.
What is more Bath are a bit of an unknown package for Bordeaux, Finn Russell knows the French game and under Johaan van Graan’s direction has free reign to do the unexpected.
We also have our own superstars in Thomas du Toit, Sam Underhill, Ben Spencer and Henry Arundell. Ollie Lawrence is returning to form and we have our own Big Joe Cokanasiga for them to worry about.
What is becoming evident is that there is a unity and camaraderie in the Bath side that takes the side to unexpected places. Team spirit has been seen to compensate for ‘on paper’ superiority on many an occasion in sport.
The other completely unknown factor is the psychological pressure attached to these games for Bordeaux: such a bruising attritional quarter final against an old rival can be hard to replicate in the next following round.
For Bath this is the return to the big stage the club has been waiting for. Diehard fans will make this trip despite the fuel crisis and high-ticket prices. For the rest of us we will follow the game on our screens of varying sizes and radios intently as our club battles for a second star on the jersey.
As a result of the outstanding performance by the ‘rotated’ Bath team against Northampton Saints I get the impression that this might have generated some pressure on the Champions Cup team to achieve, even overachieve.
What is clear is that the Bath coaches led by John Van Graan has reestablished much of the form of last season despite the loss of Lee Blackett. I'm sure JvG has analysed UBB and developed a winning game plan. I just hope that the route to the final isn't blighted by ill-discipline. Could the result be decided by a card? Let's hope not.
Russell: free rein.
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Discussion started by Comeonmylovers.co.uk (IP Logged), 28/04/2026 08:49
28/04/2026 08:49
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:06:12:17:41 by hasta.
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:06:12:17:41 by hasta.
Thanks shipwrecked for this excellent write up to whet the appetite. Win or lose, I echo your sentiments -let's hope cards and injuries do not dictate the outcome.
I expect it will be a humdinger.
COYB!
PG
I expect it will be a humdinger.
COYB!
PG
Quote:P G Tips
Credit goes to shipwrecked gaz.
PG
Oops, thanks PG and yes, big "thank you" shipwrecked
Great write up - some big news for us via Chris Ashton - it appears Jefferson Poirot is out probably for the rest of the season having picked up an injury at the weekend - he is a huge player for Bordeaux and his presence will be missed.
Excellent Preview, massive task, but my its exciting.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
adopted player, 24/25 Hame Faiva. 23/24 Ted Hill. 22/23 Cam Redpath. 21/22 Max Clark. 20/21 Henry Thomas. 19/20 Max Wright. 18/19 Cooper Vuna.
Quote:If it's an injury it's because he smashed his own head into a Montpelier players head.Ali1969
Great write up - some big news for us via Chris Ashton - it appears Jefferson Poirot is out probably for the rest of the season having picked up an injury at the weekend - he is a huge player for Bordeaux and his presence will be missed.
I believe he's banned rather than injured
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:28:12:24:04 by A.M 180.
Quote:A.M 180Quote:If it's an injury it's because he smashed his own head into a Montpelier players head.Ali1969
Great write up - some big news for us via Chris Ashton - it appears Jefferson Poirot is out probably for the rest of the season having picked up an injury at the weekend - he is a huge player for Bordeaux and his presence will be missed.
He's banned rather than injured
Basically it means he is doubly out banned and injured! Let's hope Monsieur Poirot hasn't damaged any of his "little grey cells" in the incident, certainly beneficial to our prospects, might make Billy Sela's (if selected) job a little easier as it probably introduces Matis Perchaud, a young prospect 23 and much more Billy's size.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:28:12:38:06 by shipwrecked.
Well done, a great review. The very mention of Bordeaux brings back memories of my trip there in 98, hugely outnumbered we witnessed a shock result. As the Brive fans disappeared into the night we celebrated with Bordeaux citizens who didn't seem too disappointed by the result. It will be another shock if Bath can pull this one off and for those loyal fans who have made the trip celebrations may need to be more inhibited. Safe trip for those, UBB may be upset a little after their weekend game, I have a gut feeling the odds are a little more even although we need some good news on injuries. As well as Tom played at Saints we can't do without Ben.
If Bath score to go ahead in the last few minutes, I guarantee that Ben Spencer will not be guilty of a simple knock-on from the restart!
Great write up and the "unity and camaraderie" point is a very important one. Don't like drawing comparisons with Sarries but (regardless of how they were able put those teams together) they never knew when they were beaten and their high-intensity defence was something to behold.
Genuinely think we are approaching those levels now but only results against UBB and the like will see us compared with them.
Posted on another thread how precarious their position in the Top 14 is. Given how much emphasis the French put on domestic success, do we think there's any chance of them rotating a bit? And would it actually matter given their lengthy list of internationals?
Genuinely think we are approaching those levels now but only results against UBB and the like will see us compared with them.
Posted on another thread how precarious their position in the Top 14 is. Given how much emphasis the French put on domestic success, do we think there's any chance of them rotating a bit? And would it actually matter given their lengthy list of internationals?
Quote:Optimist
If Bath score to go ahead in the last few minutes, I guarantee that Ben Spencer will not be guilty of a simple knock-on from the restart!
You've said it now, Opti!
2024/25 adoptee: Guy Pepper
Quote:Barfboy
Posted on another thread how precarious their position in the Top 14 is. Given how much emphasis the French put on domestic success, do we think there's any chance of them rotating a bit? And would it actually matter given their lengthy list of internationals?
I imagine very little chance at all. They have plenty of quality but they're not that deep with big name internationals - a long way off what Toulouse have for example.
Hoping for a positive midweek injury update but more confident than initially that we can pull this off.
Also extremely envious of anyone making the trip....
Great write up. Got me going! Allez Bath!
So tremendously excited but strangely sanguine about this one. On the one hand, feels like our best chance of Euro glory, with TDT and Finn in his prime. But it also would be such a huge upset if we pulled it off that I won’t be too disappointed if we go down swinging. Whatever the scoreline, just hope we have no regrets come tea time on Sunday!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:28:18:27:36 by dr.bath1865.
So tremendously excited but strangely sanguine about this one. On the one hand, feels like our best chance of Euro glory, with TDT and Finn in his prime. But it also would be such a huge upset if we pulled it off that I won’t be too disappointed if we go down swinging. Whatever the scoreline, just hope we have no regrets come tea time on Sunday!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:28:18:27:36 by dr.bath1865.
[www.oddschecker.com]
UBB strong favourites but at those odds I'm having a flutter on 💙🖤🤍
PS. Not really bothered about any other teams
UBB strong favourites but at those odds I'm having a flutter on 💙🖤🤍
PS. Not really bothered about any other teams
Ah 1998 – great memories. My group actually hung out with some of the Brive lads all night, they were a good crack.
I'd love to imagine JVG getting Andy Nicol and Robbo into the dressing room pre-game, but perhaps that's a better move if we manage to get to the final.
It'll be tough, but we do have the personnel: enough internationals, enough quality. COYB!
I'd love to imagine JVG getting Andy Nicol and Robbo into the dressing room pre-game, but perhaps that's a better move if we manage to get to the final.
It'll be tough, but we do have the personnel: enough internationals, enough quality. COYB!
I shall be watching live at 4am. COYB!!!!!
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
I’m looking forward to this immensely! Nothing like playing at the top table!
Although we have the players, especially in the backrow, to make them think twice and to make it a proper match, I still view this as a learning step. Not putting the team down, more that Bordeaux are a step above most teams, and the great European sides of old (Leinster, Saracens, La Rochelle) had to lose a few semis and final to learn what it takes to win.
I’ve got the extended family round for a bbq and watching party on Sunday so let’s hope it’s an entertaining game at least!
In terms of team, I think the backrow is key and suspect we will see Underhill and Pepper starting with maybe Read? It’s the balance between needing to get on top early, and having the bench coming on to turn things around? I can’t see us squeezing and grinding them out like other teams so might be one where TdT starts as well?
Although we have the players, especially in the backrow, to make them think twice and to make it a proper match, I still view this as a learning step. Not putting the team down, more that Bordeaux are a step above most teams, and the great European sides of old (Leinster, Saracens, La Rochelle) had to lose a few semis and final to learn what it takes to win.
I’ve got the extended family round for a bbq and watching party on Sunday so let’s hope it’s an entertaining game at least!
In terms of team, I think the backrow is key and suspect we will see Underhill and Pepper starting with maybe Read? It’s the balance between needing to get on top early, and having the bench coming on to turn things around? I can’t see us squeezing and grinding them out like other teams so might be one where TdT starts as well?
The competitions website highlights two key match ups in the semi. Matthieu Jalibert vs Finn Russell and Louis Bielle-Biarrey vs Henry Arundell. One things for sure neither Finn nor Henry will be phased by placing in France.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
It is vital that we are totally focused defensively in the first 10 minutes. So often recently we have failed to do that & had to play catch up. That is not advisable against Bordeaux. If we can keep it tight in the first quarter we are in with a chance.
UBB are 6th in the Top 14 today so may not be as all conquering as we fear and England had the measure of France in the 6N with Jalibert/B-Barry et al. We need to be on it from the 1st to the 80th minute. The pressure is all on UBB at home so if we can slow their ruck speed and prevent the offload we should disrupt their flow and get on top. Allez 💙🖤🤍
Quote:Treble
UBB are 6th in the Top 14 today so may not be as all conquering as we fear and England had the measure of France in the 6N with Jalibert/B-Barry et al.
England has the measure of LBB so well, he only scored 4!
Quote:SmooothsidesQuote:Treble
UBB are 6th in the Top 14 today so may not be as all conquering as we fear and England had the measure of France in the 6N with Jalibert/B-Barry et al.
England has the measure of LBB so well, he only scored 4!
Yes and the Rugbypass rating for Jalibert was:
Matthieu Jalibert – 9
Sensational. Footwork to beat defenders for fun and the 12’ kick for LBB’s second was Louvre-worthy. He did throw the interception for Chessum’s try on 50 minutes, but he kept coming back – line breaks late helped set the table for the winner. France’s attacking conductor.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:SmooothsidesQuote:Treble
UBB are 6th in the Top 14 today so may not be as all conquering as we fear and England had the measure of France in the 6N with Jalibert/B-Barry et al.
England has the measure of LBB so well, he only scored 4!
Yes and the Rugbypass rating for Jalibert was:
Matthieu Jalibert – 9
Sensational. Footwork to beat defenders for fun and the 12’ kick for LBB’s second was Louvre-worthy. He did throw the interception for Chessum’s try on 50 minutes, but he kept coming back – line breaks late helped set the table for the winner. France’s attacking conductor.
I don't doubt their individual brilliance
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:29:11:26:07 by Treble.
Interesting pre match interview with Ben Tameifuna summarised below:
He compares the 10s to Kobe Bryant in term of mindset and likens Russell and Jalibert in having a similar confidence and “alpha” mentality as the basketball superstar.
Both take responsibility in big moments and both have the ability to decide games individually and not just manage them.
They are portrayed as high-risk, high-reward playmakers who are capable of brilliance and are unpredictable. They are not ‘system’ 10s, but match-winners who demand freedom.
He sees them as two maverick and emphasises that stopping either fly-half is central to winning.
On that basis you would have to let Sam Underhill loose on Jalibert wouldn’t you?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
He compares the 10s to Kobe Bryant in term of mindset and likens Russell and Jalibert in having a similar confidence and “alpha” mentality as the basketball superstar.
Both take responsibility in big moments and both have the ability to decide games individually and not just manage them.
They are portrayed as high-risk, high-reward playmakers who are capable of brilliance and are unpredictable. They are not ‘system’ 10s, but match-winners who demand freedom.
He sees them as two maverick and emphasises that stopping either fly-half is central to winning.
On that basis you would have to let Sam Underhill loose on Jalibert wouldn’t you?
Quote:shipwrecked
They are not ‘system’ 10s, but match-winners who demand freedom.
He sees them as two maverick and emphasises that stopping either fly-half is central to winning.
On that basis you would have to let Sam Underhill loose on Jalibert wouldn’t you?
Worth watching the most recent Squidge Rugby video on this. Really good breakdown of how almost no attack is playing system rugby these days and the whole team is expected to be able to offer open field defence to combat this that used to just come from back rowers and centres.
Quote:theredseatQuote:shipwrecked
They are not ‘system’ 10s, but match-winners who demand freedom.
He sees them as two maverick and emphasises that stopping either fly-half is central to winning.
On that basis you would have to let Sam Underhill loose on Jalibert wouldn’t you?
Worth watching the most recent Squidge Rugby video on this. Really good breakdown of how almost no attack is playing system rugby these days and the whole team is expected to be able to offer open field defence to combat this that used to just come from back rowers and centres.
Just wondering if you should be sharing that with Mr Borthwick TRS!
Quote:shipwrecked
On that basis you would have to let Sam Underhill loose on Jalibert wouldn’t you?
Or Hill / Pepper / Bayliss to get to him as quickly as possible and close his space (he doesn't need to be smashed into next week to stop him playing).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Winding up your open-side and telling him to smash the opposition fly-half is a bit 1970s isn't it? Closing down a player of Jalibert's quality will be very much a team effort. The last thing you want is a key defender flying up and allowing him to get goal-side - he and LBB would love that.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:A.M 180Quote:If it's an injury it's because he smashed his own head into a Montpelier players head.Ali1969
Great write up - some big news for us via Chris Ashton - it appears Jefferson Poirot is out probably for the rest of the season having picked up an injury at the weekend - he is a huge player for Bordeaux and his presence will be missed.
He's banned rather than injured
Basically it means he is doubly out banned and injured! Let's hope Monsieur Poirot hasn't damaged any of his "little grey cells" in the incident, certainly beneficial to our prospects, might make
Billy Sela's (if selected) job a little easier as it probably introduces Matis Perchaud, a young prospect 23 and much more Billy's size.
Keep um coming SW 👍👍
Anyone else keep thinking 'Big Chief, Little Chief, cardboard box'? No? Just me? Nevermind then
Poirot banned for 2 games (head contact)...and Yannick Bru as well (disrespecting a match official)!
Ooof, the injury update is not good. Van Der Linde has had surgery, but could be back before the end of season
From Somerset Live
Providing an update on his squad, Bath head of rugby van Graan said: “I'd say they're [Spencer, Redpath and Ojomoh] all touch and go. Joe Cokanasiga as well. He has a mid-leg issue.
Isaac Mears is training with the squad. The concern around Spencer does seem justified after all
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:29:16:00:59 by A.M 180.
From Somerset Live
Providing an update on his squad, Bath head of rugby van Graan said: “I'd say they're [Spencer, Redpath and Ojomoh] all touch and go. Joe Cokanasiga as well. He has a mid-leg issue.
Isaac Mears is training with the squad. The concern around Spencer does seem justified after all
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:29:16:00:59 by A.M 180.
I am hoping it is a bit of mind games - some huge players mentioned in that update.
Crumb of comfort from JvG
“We've got faith that Ben will be fine on the weekend, and whether he or any other player is not, we're all pretty adaptable."
No such liens about Max or Cam though
“We've got faith that Ben will be fine on the weekend, and whether he or any other player is not, we're all pretty adaptable."
No such liens about Max or Cam though
Yeah that update does leave me a little deflated, and now has me wondering who we'd play at 12 if Max and Cam aren't available? I'd personally go 12 Butt 13 Lawrence, loads of power but lacking the playmaking that Redpath and Ojomoh are so adept at.
Quote:boozeboozebooze
Yeah that update does leave me a little deflated, and now has me wondering who we'd play at 12 if Max and Cam aren't available? I'd personally go 12 Butt 13 Lawrence, loads of power but lacking the playmaking that Redpath and Ojomoh are so adept at.
I think it would have to be and then Santi would have to be at 15 to give you the passing option (which I imagine is the plan there anyway)
12 Lawrence 13 Hennessey just feels rogue in a Euro semi and I think Harris would leave us too exposed
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:29:17:05:32 by theredseat.
Quote:hasta
Anyone else keep thinking 'Big Chief, Little Chief, cardboard box'? No? Just me? Nevermind then
The name actually takes inspiration from the cbeebies classic, big cook little cook, which I used to watch with my youngest! I apologise if you have kid's of a certain age, as you'll now spend the rest of the evening singing the theme tune!!!
Assume butt and lawrence.
Quite like the idea of lawrence and hennessey- big and powerful but hugely risky.
Quite like the idea of lawrence and hennessey- big and powerful but hugely risky.
Bath could give 18-year-old prospect Isaac Mears his first-team debut in Sunday's Champions Cup semi-final away to Bordeaux-Begles after a sudden spate of injuries hit their scrum-half stocks.
Well although only 18 Zac Mears does have recent experience of winning a knock out final!
Any thoughts on this comment below?
Van Graan has hinted that, while he has promoted Mears into the senior set-up, he is also considering a leftfield positional switch as another means of covering scrum-half.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Well although only 18 Zac Mears does have recent experience of winning a knock out final!
Any thoughts on this comment below?
Van Graan has hinted that, while he has promoted Mears into the senior set-up, he is also considering a leftfield positional switch as another means of covering scrum-half.
Quote:Wash wipe scrub and clean, make the kitchen sparkle and gleam!Big Chief Little ChiefQuote:hasta
Anyone else keep thinking 'Big Chief, Little Chief, cardboard box'? No? Just me? Nevermind then
The name actually takes inspiration from the cbeebies classic, big cook little cook, which I used to watch with my youngest! I apologise if you have kid's of a certain age, as you'll now spend the rest of the evening singing the theme tune!!!
I could genuinely recite the rest without looking it up. Anyways, sad times for our scrum half situation. I’m guessing we are setting the worst case scene with the hope Spenno is actually available on the day for the most important game of the season (so far). Best we get Peter Stringer out of cold storage. He’s probably still playing somewhere, keeping fit, ready for the call up…
So someone who could play at 9 who has never played at 9 before?
Donaghue? Surely you just play Tom Carr-Smith?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Donaghue? Surely you just play Tom Carr-Smith?
Quote:shipwrecked
So someone who could play at 9 who has never played at 9 before?
Donaghue? Surely you just play Tom Carr-Smith?
Surely it means the replacement on the bench Shipwrecked? I guess best case scenario is TCS going the full 80 if Spenny is unavailable.
Quote:Well TCS will start if Spencer is injured, but does seem like he's toying with the idea of not having a specialist 9 on the bench regardless.shipwrecked
So someone who could play at 9 who has never played at 9 before?
Donaghue? Surely you just play Tom Carr-Smith?
Seems a big risk if Spencer is 'touch and go' but I suppose this could be an attempt at the answer of 'How do you beat Bordeaux Begles?'
Well, the title of this post is proving very apt!
(Thanks Shipwrecked, great preview)
I guess this means no concerns over Beno, which is a positive, and Horse can cover Big Joe.
Nine is only really a problem if TCS gets injured and I could imagine Santi playing there in an emergency.
Butt and Lawrence would be absolutely fine, as much as Max would be my preference.
(Thanks Shipwrecked, great preview)
I guess this means no concerns over Beno, which is a positive, and Horse can cover Big Joe.
Nine is only really a problem if TCS gets injured and I could imagine Santi playing there in an emergency.
Butt and Lawrence would be absolutely fine, as much as Max would be my preference.
Quote:Mini MaximusQuote:shipwrecked
So someone who could play at 9 who has never played at 9 before?
Donaghue? Surely you just play Tom Carr-Smith?
Surely it means the replacement on the bench Shipwrecked? I guess best case scenario is TCS going the full 80 if Spenny is unavailable.
Agreed MM of course you are right, but if we get an injury at 9 in the game who stands behind the scrum and who puts it in?
An extra back row? I'm trying to think out of the box.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:29:21:19:30 by shipwrecked.
Is ieuan davies fit and registered?
Sure he was at the game on sat, presumably as travelling cover.
Interesting if so, seems mears star is on the rise.
Sure he was at the game on sat, presumably as travelling cover.
Interesting if so, seems mears star is on the rise.
What would Rassie Erasmus do?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:Charlieboa1
Is ieuan davies fit and registered?
Sure he was at the game on sat, presumably as travelling cover.
Interesting if so, seems mears star is on the rise.
He has played in the Challenge cup for Cardiff this season.
TDG has played 9 for Bath! Or failing that, TDT could do it.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53
TDG has played 9 for Bath! Or failing that, TDT could do it.
TdG I get but TdT!!! I'm not sure he could get to the breakdown before the ref calls use it!
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53
TDG has played 9 for Bath! Or failing that, TDT could do it.
TdG I get but TdT!!! I'm not sure he could get to the breakdown before the ref calls use it!
How very dare you, TDT can do anything….
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53
TDG has played 9 for Bath! Or failing that, TDT could do it.
TdG I get but TdT!!! I'm not sure he could get to the breakdown before the ref calls use it!
How very dare you, TDT can do anything….
Oh I see now, so we move Finn Russell to tight head so TdT doesn't have to pass it to him, no one will expect that so its bound to work!
This is getting very weird.....
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:Charlieboa1
Is ieuan davies fit and registered?
Sure he was at the game on sat, presumably as travelling cover.
Interesting if so, seems mears star is on the rise.
He has played in the Challenge cup for Cardiff this season.
Good knowledge, thanks SW.
I am not a fan of no specialist 9 on the bench- would rather risk an 18 Yr old I think!
Sad news for Spenno if it rules him out. I’m wracking my brain on who could cover from the main squad in a pinch. Donoghue maybe? Or TdG as previously noted.
Left field, but Arundell?
My personal choice would be Dunn, we know he’s got the ability to dummy any FB in open field!
Left field, but Arundell?
My personal choice would be Dunn, we know he’s got the ability to dummy any FB in open field!
Quote:BathMatt53
TDG has played 9 for Bath! Or failing that, TDT could do it.
When?
TdG played one season at scrum half as a junior ..... not going to be the solution.
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:BathMatt53
TDG has played 9 for Bath! Or failing that, TDT could do it.
When?
I can't remember the game, but he moved there in a game when our starting scrum half was injured or sent off or something. But yes, the exclamation mark meant that I don't think of him as a serious option, particularly in a Euro semi.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Charlieboa1
Assume butt and lawrence.
Quite like the idea of lawrence and hennessey- big and powerful but hugely risky.
Not that I think we'll go that way but liking this Lawrence / Hennessey combo more and more to be honest.
I'm guessing the centres on the teamsheet will be the ones we see Sunday and Spencer gets named and given every chance to start so there's minimal potential for reshuffles on the day. I still think Spencer plays personally
[www.rugbypass.com]
Anthony Watson’s take on the Semi
Widcombe Garçon
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:30:09:00:11 by Widcombe boy.
Anthony Watson’s take on the Semi
Widcombe Garçon
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:30:09:00:11 by Widcombe boy.
Quote:theredseatQuote:Charlieboa1
Assume butt and lawrence.
Quite like the idea of lawrence and hennessey- big and powerful but hugely risky.
Not that I think we'll go that way but liking this Lawrence / Hennessey combo more and more to be honest.
I'm guessing the centres on the teamsheet will be the ones we see Sunday and Spencer gets named and given every chance to start so there's minimal potential for reshuffles on the day. I still think Spencer plays personally
Problem is Lawrence and Hennesy are both 13s.
I know Lawrence has played 12 for England, but not very successfully.
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:theredseatQuote:Charlieboa1
Assume butt and lawrence.
Quite like the idea of lawrence and hennessey- big and powerful but hugely risky.
Not that I think we'll go that way but liking this Lawrence / Hennessey combo more and more to be honest.
I'm guessing the centres on the teamsheet will be the ones we see Sunday and Spencer gets named and given every chance to start so there's minimal potential for reshuffles on the day. I still think Spencer plays personally
Problem is Lawrence and Hennesy are both 13s.
I know Lawrence has played 12 for England, but not very successfully.
Yeah that's true as well but a combination of experience at 12 (where he defends for England even with 13 on his back) and getting your best players on the pitch still feels good to me. Have Carreras available to distribute and I think it can work if needed
Wondering if the injuries at centre might lead to us going 5:3? If Max or Redpath are ok to start on Sunday, given that they're touch and go today, the chances of them playing 80 minutes at that intensity must be diminished. So do you then need TDG/Donoghue AND Hennessy on the bench? As discussed maybe TDG covers 9 and we go 6:2 still!
(I know we all know it- but might help my processing of it if I type it down) ... Amazing how ironic/epic-ly annoying it is that for our biggest game in decades we've got crucial injuries that could really upset the way we play and setup.
(I know we all know it- but might help my processing of it if I type it down) ... Amazing how ironic/epic-ly annoying it is that for our biggest game in decades we've got crucial injuries that could really upset the way we play and setup.
I agree I don’t think Lawrence has yet hit heights of last season and I’m probably wrong but has lost a little pace when going for an outside break/also when defending an outside break but his power and experience at 12 would work with Hennessy outside.
But hopefully Ono & Cam are fit 🤞🇪🇪
Widcombe Garçon
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:30:10:58:40 by Widcombe boy.
But hopefully Ono & Cam are fit 🤞🇪🇪
Quote:theredseatQuote:Dorset BoyQuote:theredseatQuote:Charlieboa1
Assume butt and lawrence.
Quite like the idea of lawrence and hennessey- big and powerful but hugely risky.
Not that I think we'll go that way but liking this Lawrence / Hennessey combo more and more to be honest.
I'm guessing the centres on the teamsheet will be the ones we see Sunday and Spencer gets named and given every chance to start so there's minimal potential for reshuffles on the day. I still think Spencer plays personally
Problem is Lawrence and Hennesy are both 13s.
I know Lawrence has played 12 for England, but not very successfully.
Yeah that's true as well but a combination of experience at 12 (where he defends for England even with 13 on his back) and getting your best players on the pitch still feels good to me. Have Carreras available to distribute and I think it can work if needed
Widcombe Garçon
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:30:10:58:40 by Widcombe boy.
So frustrating to get such significant injuries at this stage of the season, but I guess it’s the price we pay for trying to compete on 2 fronts.
We don't yet know if any of spencer, mojo, redpath, big Joe are def out.
If it's just bvdl plus the known will stuart and jaco then we are still in rude health compared to others.
Agree it's awful timing to potentially have one of our longer injury lists over the last few years bit fingers crossed it's not as bad as we think.
If it's just bvdl plus the known will stuart and jaco then we are still in rude health compared to others.
Agree it's awful timing to potentially have one of our longer injury lists over the last few years bit fingers crossed it's not as bad as we think.
I'm not sure i'd be inclined to go with a junior on the bench in such a big match. Don't want to jinx it, but 9s are rarely injured. If TC-S were to go down early, and a youngster had to come on, I'd say that would leave us with zero chance anyway, so might as well cover ourselves in areas that are much more likely to need a boost.
Very true Charlie, the thing that concerns me though is if key players are 'on the limit' doesn't that impact going on to win whatever competition w are in.
The key point is whether these are short term or long term injuries. BVDL is long term following his initial hammy problem but given he is 25 has played surprisingly little rugby, I suspect we knew he might be a bit fragile when we signed him
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
The key point is whether these are short term or long term injuries. BVDL is long term following his initial hammy problem but given he is 25 has played surprisingly little rugby, I suspect we knew he might be a bit fragile when we signed him
Quote:Charlieboa1
Agree it's awful timing to potentially have one of our longer injury lists over the last few years bit fingers crossed it's not as bad as we think.
It's always awful timing. If it had come earlier in the season we might not be where we are now. It is what it is and we (like all teams) have to work round it. We still have a smaller injury list than most if not all other teams in the Prem. French teams have longer lists but have the biggest strongest squads but there is nothing we can do about that.
.... mind you, if ever there was the perfect fly-half to imbue a young 9 with the confidence to relax, go out and deliver, it's our Finn!
Quote:Optimist
I'm not sure i'd be inclined to go with a junior on the bench in such a big match. Don't want to jinx it, but 9s are rarely injured. If TC-S were to go down early, and a youngster had to come on, I'd say that would leave us with zero chance anyway, so might as well cover ourselves in areas that are much more likely to need a boost.
Yes, have to agree but remember he already has won one silver cup this season. Talented youngster but up against Lucu, away in France in front of 35,000 and on TV in a semi of the Champions Cup might well be a bit of a steep learning curve.
But what if he pulled it off!
Quote:Optimist
Davies or Mears? Which cup was that?
University of Bath win Milk Championship final for first time to complete BUCS Super Rugby league and cup double.
JvG was at the final and I suspect Mears impressed him, he had a good game.
Would be the most incredible ascension, so much so I just don't think it will happen.
I suspect TCS is at this stage guaranteed to be involved, either as the bench 9 or the starter hoped to go the whole game.
I suspect TCS is at this stage guaranteed to be involved, either as the bench 9 or the starter hoped to go the whole game.
Bordeaux Begles have their injury problems too, on top of the suspensions handed out to the coach Yannick Bru and Jefferson Poirot. Now Ben Tameifuna and Adam Coleman reported as doubtful for Sunday, according to Le Figaro.
Seems to me the main function of a 9 is to stand around waiving their arms and complaining to the ref.
On that basis I’ll bring my kit along as I’m sure I can do that.
On that basis I’ll bring my kit along as I’m sure I can do that.
From Sud Ouest:
Ben Tameifuna and Adam Coleman are both doubtful for this weekend's match. Having missed training earlier this week, the tighthead prop and the lock are hampered by soreness following the last match against Montpellier (21-23). They will be tested at the end of the week to determine their fitness to play against the English side.
Ben Tameifuna and Adam Coleman are both doubtful for this weekend's match. Having missed training earlier this week, the tighthead prop and the lock are hampered by soreness following the last match against Montpellier (21-23). They will be tested at the end of the week to determine their fitness to play against the English side.
Adam Coleman is 6'9" and a key lineout figure, two of their biggest props out now. At, loose head its either Ugo Boniface (only started twice this season) or the young Perchaud, 23. Up front dominance in question?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Cazeaux Also out in the 2nd row, and allegedly Jalibert is carrying a leg injury that is likely to restrict his kicking.
Quote:Where's that from?noidea
Cazeaux Also out in the 2nd row, and allegedly Jalibert is carrying a leg injury that is likely to restrict his kicking.
Report said Cazaux was fine and no mention of Jelly bear
I'd love to be incredibly sporting and gracious and generous, but - as long as they aren't long-term injured - blimey, that's 'good' news! There, I said it.
This is positive news from a Bath perspective regards Poirot and Bru the head coach. If true that Tameifuna and Coleman are also both out then it surely would swing the odds in our favour??
I just hope that our defence in the first 20 minutes doesn't concede many points.
I would opt for leaving the breakdown alone completely in the first half so that we get on the good side of the referee and hopefully not give away so many penalties and easy entries into our 22 but also just to have as many defenders on their feet as possible to avoid the incredibly fast Bordeaux backline getting around us.
I just hope that our defence in the first 20 minutes doesn't concede many points.
I would opt for leaving the breakdown alone completely in the first half so that we get on the good side of the referee and hopefully not give away so many penalties and easy entries into our 22 but also just to have as many defenders on their feet as possible to avoid the incredibly fast Bordeaux backline getting around us.
From a neutral perspective I hope this is all mind games and paper speculation and both sides are able to field strong sides and give as a great battle.
Anyway, you think you've got it bad? On the other side of the draw spare a thought for some Leinster players, who are gearing up for their 3rd or 4th appearance this season!!!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:30:15:24:47 by Big Chief Little Chief.
Anyway, you think you've got it bad? On the other side of the draw spare a thought for some Leinster players, who are gearing up for their 3rd or 4th appearance this season!!!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:04:30:15:24:47 by Big Chief Little Chief.
Us with Spencer + them with (Coleman or Tameifuna) = our chances are 30% (IMO)
Us without Spencer + them with (Coleman or Tameifuna) = our chances fall to 15%
Us without Spencer + them without Poirot and (Coleman or Tameifuna) = our chances remain at 30%
Us with Spencer (paired with Horse on the LW) + them without Poirot and Coleman and Tameifuna = our chances surge to 49%!
Us without Spencer + them with (Coleman or Tameifuna) = our chances fall to 15%
Us without Spencer + them without Poirot and (Coleman or Tameifuna) = our chances remain at 30%
Us with Spencer (paired with Horse on the LW) + them without Poirot and Coleman and Tameifuna = our chances surge to 49%!
Just noticed that "Murder on the Orient Express" is on BBC4 tonight, at 8pm. Have the Beeb been following this thread?
The front row and team in general will need to get on the right side of Nika who is back to officiate. We certainly got on the wrong side of his whistle in the 40 minutes against Sarries before Josh took him out and turned things around.
Absolutely love these few hours before a team announcement. Almost as fun as the immediate reaction to it. It's a buzz we went without for so many years.
Safe travels to anyone starting their long weekend now
Safe travels to anyone starting their long weekend now
Quote:A.M 180
Absolutely love these few hours before a team announcement. Almost as fun as the immediate reaction to it. It's a buzz we went without for so many years.
Safe travels to anyone starting their long weekend now
This. Literally sweating just thinking about Spenny's availability.
Brilliant fun analysing what your chances are vs Europe's best as oppsed to pondering how many you'll get pumped by in a dead rubber league game.
Quote:Currently waiting for my flight at Luton airport…missed the chance to go from Bristol!A.M 180
Absolutely love these few hours before a team announcement. Almost as fun as the immediate reaction to it. It's a buzz we went without for so many years.
Safe travels to anyone starting their long weekend now
Interesting that rain is forecast for some of the weekend in Bordeaux. Not sure if that helps us or not.
On the one hand, might not allow them to be as slick in attack. But in an arm wrestle, they've perhaps the heavier pack (Coleman, Tameifuna pending). But fundamentally we're a damn good attacking rugby team, so the rain will hinder us as much as them. One thing I do think is that if it is raining, we could really really REALLY do with Spencer in the 9 shirt.
On the one hand, might not allow them to be as slick in attack. But in an arm wrestle, they've perhaps the heavier pack (Coleman, Tameifuna pending). But fundamentally we're a damn good attacking rugby team, so the rain will hinder us as much as them. One thing I do think is that if it is raining, we could really really REALLY do with Spencer in the 9 shirt.
I'm not too worried about the 23 selected. JVG will pick the best one available and the game last week showed that anyone who is bought in will do a fine job. If you want to win things in rugby you need to be able to cope with a few guys out.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:Own up...who on here is going to the spa with Beno each week?Treble
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cy423g75w44o
Beno's thoughts on the upcoming clash with UBB
While I agree BM, I wonder if we'd have the same view if Russell or TdT were 50/50? Spenny is in that bracket, especially when you consider his experience in games like this.
Quote:Barfboy
While I agree BM, I wonder if we'd have the same view if Russell or TdT were 50/50? Spenny is in that bracket, especially when you consider his experience in games like this.
I guess my point is that there isn't much point in getting too concerned about it...they either play or they don't and if they don't then someone else will do fine in their place. Show me a team with zero injuries at this stage of the season - I actually think that Bath have been in a better place than most this season.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Currently at Rennes having caught the Overnight ferry from St Malo, and trains to La Rochelle for a night and on to Bordeaux tomorrow
Allez Bath 🇪🇪🇫🇷
Widcombe Garçon
Allez Bath 🇪🇪🇫🇷
Widcombe Garçon
Phew!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Think that's just hurdle one for Spencer. Fit enough to be named but JvG suggested that would be the case but we may have to adjust things over the weekend
Excited by that centre partnership I must say
Excited by that centre partnership I must say
Seem to only be missing the suspended Poirot. Coleman, Tameifuna, and Jelly-Bear all included.
Bordeaux Begles: 15. Salesi Rayasi, 14. Pablo Uberti, 13. Damian Penaud, 12. Yoram Moefana, 11. Louis Bielle-Biarrey, 10. Matthieu Jalibert, 9. Maxime Lucu (c), 1. Matis Perchaud, 2. Maxime Lamothe, 3. Carlü Sadie, 4. Boris Palu, 5. Adam Coleman, 6. Pierre Bochaton, 7. Cameron Woki, 8. Marko Gazzotti
Replacements: 16. Gaetan Barlot, 17. Ugo Boniface, 18. Ben Tameifuna, 19. Cyril Cazeaux, 20. Bastien Vergnes-Taillefer, 21. Temo Matiu, 22. Arthur Retiere, 23. Hugo Reus
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:01:12:05:54 by Benisjammin.
Bordeaux Begles: 15. Salesi Rayasi, 14. Pablo Uberti, 13. Damian Penaud, 12. Yoram Moefana, 11. Louis Bielle-Biarrey, 10. Matthieu Jalibert, 9. Maxime Lucu (c), 1. Matis Perchaud, 2. Maxime Lamothe, 3. Carlü Sadie, 4. Boris Palu, 5. Adam Coleman, 6. Pierre Bochaton, 7. Cameron Woki, 8. Marko Gazzotti
Replacements: 16. Gaetan Barlot, 17. Ugo Boniface, 18. Ben Tameifuna, 19. Cyril Cazeaux, 20. Bastien Vergnes-Taillefer, 21. Temo Matiu, 22. Arthur Retiere, 23. Hugo Reus
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:01:12:05:54 by Benisjammin.
Wow. What an endorsement of Hennessy. Great that Bayliss is rewarded as well
Am I reading too much into that bench in thinking the de Glanville is the emergency 9 that was talked about? He's probably 'next man up' anyway with Ojomoh, Redpath and Cokanasiga out but would make sense if he was in the frame for the job. Could then bring Butt or Donoghue onto the bench if Spencer doesn't make it if JvG doesn't want to throw Mears in
Well, i'm mostly happy, because JVG clearly reads this board and has listened to me!!
But actually - I reckon Sela and Tuipolotou are now more than capable of being genuine impact subs who could exert an influence of their own late in the final quarter.
But actually - I reckon Sela and Tuipolotou are now more than capable of being genuine impact subs who could exert an influence of their own late in the final quarter.
Quote:theredseat
Am I reading too much into that bench in thinking the de Glanville is the emergency 9 that was talked about? He's probably 'next man up' anyway with Ojomoh, Redpath and Cokanasiga out but would make sense if he was in the frame for the job. Could then bring Butt or Donoghue onto the bench if Spencer doesn't make it if JvG doesn't want to throw Mears in
Perhaps, you would need 2 scrum half injuries for that to be the contingency.
Quote:A.M 180
Great that Bayliss is rewarded as well
I am really really pleased about that, as I said earlier in the thread he is undroppable in his current form.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:A.M 180
Wow. What an endorsement of Hennessy. Great that Bayliss is rewarded as well
Agree, he seems to have leapfrogged Butt, clearly the club feel he has a higher ceiling, the game at Saints seems to have sealed his selection.
Interesting that the two French team in the Champions Cup are currently 6th and 8th in their League.
Both quality teams, UBB in particular but interesting that suggests they are teams doing less well this season.
With Leinster in 4th place in the URC it's only yourselves who really currently represent a "form" team.
No pressure!
Good luck. It would be great to see yourselves or Chiefs or possibly even and Chiefs in the European finals.
Both quality teams, UBB in particular but interesting that suggests they are teams doing less well this season.
With Leinster in 4th place in the URC it's only yourselves who really currently represent a "form" team.
No pressure!
Good luck. It would be great to see yourselves or Chiefs or possibly even and Chiefs in the European finals.
Frustrating, already the underdogs and now the tip in player availability towards UBB, probably puts this out of sight (if it wasn't already)
Plane at 6:40 tomorrow! Really excited for this, love that team, particularly that impact back row. Feel bad for Max, but really excited for Hennessy. Very happy to see Spenny on the sheet.
That'll do nicely! Big shame about Max and Redpath, especially Max, who I really wanted to see go up against the best in Europe. But what a chance for Hennessy! He's leapfrogged Butt and Harris it seems, and can't wait to see him on the biggest stage. Never loved Ollie at 12 but as part of a more structured game plan, he can run north to south as good as anyone.
Looking like we're going to kick plenty, which is the right approach if you read the piece in The Times featuring Stade coach, Paul Gustard, who has beaten UBB twice this season and says you've got to play at your own pace, get the ball off the pitch, play with structure etc. Completely agree with that, and why Spencer being fit is so important, as he with the chasing Bayliss, Hennessy, Horse, Arundell can hopefully work the touchlines nicely and win territory.
Hugely excited now. Great looking squad. As the week's worn on, I've got more and more optimistic. You never know! In JVG we trust! Allez allez allez!
Looking like we're going to kick plenty, which is the right approach if you read the piece in The Times featuring Stade coach, Paul Gustard, who has beaten UBB twice this season and says you've got to play at your own pace, get the ball off the pitch, play with structure etc. Completely agree with that, and why Spencer being fit is so important, as he with the chasing Bayliss, Hennessy, Horse, Arundell can hopefully work the touchlines nicely and win territory.
Hugely excited now. Great looking squad. As the week's worn on, I've got more and more optimistic. You never know! In JVG we trust! Allez allez allez!
Quote:by
Frustrating, already the underdogs and now the tip in player availability towards UBB, probably puts this out of sight (if it wasn't already)
Put that one up on the dressing room wall for added motivation!
Happy for Bayliss and Barbeary getting the start - well deserved. But those two are such a threat off the bench vs tired opposition...is it the same having Miles and Underhill on at 50/60mins?
Anyway, the man will have a plan as always. Can't wait for this one and very jealous of everyone making the trip!
Pezza was on GBR podcast this week saying how loud it was in 1998...make sure you've got no voices come Monday!
Anyway, the man will have a plan as always. Can't wait for this one and very jealous of everyone making the trip!
Pezza was on GBR podcast this week saying how loud it was in 1998...make sure you've got no voices come Monday!
Quote:Barfboy
Also...is Bayliss emergency centre cover??
12 Barbeary 13 Bayliss...
This looks like a change of gameplan to me by JvG, I suspect that the game will be decided in the first half.
If we fall behind in the first 40 there is no 'impact bench' to fall back on. It looks just like a standard replacement bench to me.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
If we fall behind in the first 40 there is no 'impact bench' to fall back on. It looks just like a standard replacement bench to me.
Quote:Benisjammin
Seem to only be missing the suspended Poirot. Coleman, Tameifuna, and Jelly-Bear all included.
Bordeaux Begles: 15. Salesi Rayasi, 14. Pablo Uberti, 13. Damian Penaud, 12. Yoram Moefana, 11. Louis Bielle-Biarrey, 10. Matthieu Jalibert, 9. Maxime Lucu (c), 1. Matis Perchaud, 2. Maxime Lamothe, 3. Carlü Sadie, 4. Boris Palu, 5. Adam Coleman, 6. Pierre Bochaton, 7. Cameron Woki, 8. Marko Gazzotti
Replacements: 16. Gaetan Barlot, 17. Ugo Boniface, 18. Ben Tameifuna, 19. Cyril Cazeaux, 20. Bastien Vergnes-Taillefer, 21. Temo Matiu, 22. Arthur Retiere, 23. Hugo Reus
Looks like the young 23 year old loose head Matis Perchaud is going to be up against TdT from the start with Sela and the undercooked Ugo Boniface to close the game out.
Quote:theredseatQuote:Barfboy
Also...is Bayliss emergency centre cover??
12 Barbeary 13 Bayliss...
Oh wow
This feels like a game where we're going to have to spring some surprises on Bordeaux to beat them, perhaps that's played into the selection of Hennessey, he's clearly an exciting player, but very different to Max and Cam, and there won't be that much gametape on him compared to the other 2, so there's the potential that UBB won't be as prepared to face his particular set of skills.
I wouldn't be surprised if around the 60 min mark Sela comes on and TdT switches to the LH side for another 10 mins before deploying FVW to counter the Ben T weight. It will be interesting to see how fit Adam Coleman and Ben T really are.
Really like the Lawrence/Hennessey combination plenty of power and speed against Penaud who is not used to playing in the centre.
I am surprisingly confident which worries me. COME ON BATH.
Really like the Lawrence/Hennessey combination plenty of power and speed against Penaud who is not used to playing in the centre.
I am surprisingly confident which worries me. COME ON BATH.
Quote:shipwrecked
This looks like a change of gameplan to me by JvG, I suspect that the game will be decided in the first half.
If we fall behind in the first 40 there is no 'impact bench' to fall back on. It looks just like a standard replacement bench to me.
Agree - it does look like that. I think it might also be geared towards not succumbing to the pressure and crowd-volume of the first 15 minutes, when Bordeaux could just take it away from us. Can't see too much wrong with a bomb squad of Reid, Underhill, Hill though. If things are very tight at 65 minutes, I'd feel pretty confident that they are as equipped as anyone to find a way.
Quote:shipwrecked
Looks like the young 23 year old loose head Matis Perchaud is going to be up against TdT from the start with Sela and the undercooked Ugo Boniface to close the game out.
Good spot! This could be the slight opening in the pack which we could exploit - at least I really hope it is.
neither english team will make the final, Toulon to spring a surprise on an undercooked blue Ireland
Montpellier to beat dragons
Montpellier to beat dragons
Great news about Ben. JVG's bomb squad approach for the Prem games works nicely but like a lot of us were thinking, our best chance of winning is to match or better from minute 1. UBB have lost 3 games at home this season but the results were incredibly tight, by margins of 1 point, 2 points and 5 points so we can't underestimate the task ahead. A lot of responsibility for all the starters to be at their clinical best especially Hennessey stepping up although he had 14 minutes against Toulon and scored a brilliant try, might be a good omen.
Quote:nick holder
neither english team will make the final, Toulon to spring a surprise on an undercooked blue Ireland
Montpellier to beat dragons
Does that mean you've thrown your final tickets in the bin?
Quote:Hopefully you are as accurate as last week…nick holder
neither english team will make the final,
For me the surprise in that selection is Lawrence starting at 12!
I had assumed if Cam & Max were ruled out Butt would come in at 12 (hopefully UBB have been working on the same assumption!)
My only concern is that when OL has been selected by England at 12 it’s taken him a match to adjust positionally!
I had assumed if Cam & Max were ruled out Butt would come in at 12 (hopefully UBB have been working on the same assumption!)
My only concern is that when OL has been selected by England at 12 it’s taken him a match to adjust positionally!
Quote:Francis AllenQuote:nick holder
neither english team will make the final, Toulon to spring a surprise on an undercooked blue Ireland
Montpellier to beat dragons
Does that mean you've thrown your final tickets in the bin?
Very good 😀
Quote:tigersimon
For me the surprise in that selection is Lawrence starting at 12!
My only concern is that when OL has been selected by England at 12 it’s taken him a match to adjust positionally!
Bath with Finn pulling the attacking plays means number on back not significant as knowing what line to run and what your job is. Ollie will go fine their
However he did look a bit rusty in defence but a week on the training pitch can sort that
More importantly Hemnessey at 13 offers a very different, exciting attack option
My main concern is that a lot of our launch plays involve the 12 at 1st receiver with Finn out the back in more space (Arundell vs Saints, Santi vs Quins), and I don't think Ollie or Louie have as good hands as Max or Cam to slip those pull-back passes back to Finn with the same accuracy/deception.
Therefore I wonder if we'll see a lot more of Carreras at 1st receiver. Funnily enough the backline might actually be a better balance than what we normally play - having three playmakers in Finn, Redpath/Ojo and Carreras can seem like overkill sometimes. Just not ideal to have an untested centre pairing in a game this big
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:01:16:53:39 by rugbyfan11.
Therefore I wonder if we'll see a lot more of Carreras at 1st receiver. Funnily enough the backline might actually be a better balance than what we normally play - having three playmakers in Finn, Redpath/Ojo and Carreras can seem like overkill sometimes. Just not ideal to have an untested centre pairing in a game this big
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:01:16:53:39 by rugbyfan11.
A massive relief that Spencer is playing and pleased to see Bayliss get a start - so often the bridesmaid with such competition for back row places.
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Tom de Glanville - Adopted player 2024-5
Quote:rugbyfan11
My main concern is that a lot of our launch plays involve either the 12 at 1st receiver with Finn out the back in more space (Arundell vs Saints, Santi vs Quins), and I don't think Ollie or Louie have as good hands as Max or Cam to slip those pull-back passes back to Finn with the same accuracy/deception.
Therefore I wonder if we'll see a lot more of Carreras at 1st receiver. Funnily enough the backline might actually be a better balance than what we normally play - having three playmakers in Finn, Redpath/Ojo and Carreras can seem like overkill sometimes. Just not ideal to have an untested centre pairing in a game this big
I think this is exactly right, expect to see a lot of Carriers at first or second receiver.
Quote:tigersimon
For me the surprise in that selection is Lawrence starting at 12!
I had assumed if Cam & Max were ruled out Butt would come in at 12 (hopefully UBB have been working on the same assumption!)
My only concern is that when OL has been selected by England at 12 it’s taken him a match to adjust positionally!
Agree, not keen on playing OL out of position. Needs must I guess.
It’s difficult to see any way Bath can win this match, but stranger things have happened in knockout games.
Having watched Toulon a number of times this season I think they have less chance of beating Ireland than Bath do against Bordeaux.
Quote:OutsideBathQuote:tigersimon
For me the surprise in that selection is Lawrence starting at 12!
I had assumed if Cam & Max were ruled out Butt would come in at 12 (hopefully UBB have been working on the same assumption!)
My only concern is that when OL has been selected by England at 12 it’s taken him a match to adjust positionally!
Agree, not keen on playing OL out of position. Needs must I guess.
It’s difficult to see any way Bath can win this match, but stranger things have happened in knockout games.
Having watched Toulon a number of times this season I think they have less chance of beating Ireland than Bath do against Bordeaux.
It's going to take a titanic, 80-minute performance and a little luck along the way, but we have the tools for the job.
Interestingly, UBB have never won the Top 14 and last year's European Cup is their only trophy.
Considering the way Ireland in Blue have played this season I think despite being away Toulon have a fair chance tomorrow.
Having seen UBB totally blow Tigers away I am more doubtful for Bath’s chances but a lot of what UBB capitalised on was Tigers mistakes!
Having seen UBB totally blow Tigers away I am more doubtful for Bath’s chances but a lot of what UBB capitalised on was Tigers mistakes!
I think that's a v good point that rugbyfan makes about how we'll miss Mojo's ability to hit the line and then pull the ball out the back to Finn. But I think it won't be missed too much as we're just going to play very direct.
Rain. Bayliss. Muir. Spencer fit. Semi final. No Mojo. Ollie at 12. I just think we're going to go more narrow than usual, box kick/high balls on their wings out of our own half, and put Ollie and Louie on up the middle... which is fine by me, as I think it's our most effective way of winning the game. I know we've got to likely score +30 points to win, but there are zero points for style, and getting into their half, squeezing them into mistakes, and then being efficient with our pick and gos and one out runners in the red zone is likely the most likely way of getting there.
Rain. Bayliss. Muir. Spencer fit. Semi final. No Mojo. Ollie at 12. I just think we're going to go more narrow than usual, box kick/high balls on their wings out of our own half, and put Ollie and Louie on up the middle... which is fine by me, as I think it's our most effective way of winning the game. I know we've got to likely score +30 points to win, but there are zero points for style, and getting into their half, squeezing them into mistakes, and then being efficient with our pick and gos and one out runners in the red zone is likely the most likely way of getting there.
Quote:theredseat
Think that's just hurdle one for Spencer. Fit enough to be named but JvG suggested that would be the case but we may have to adjust things over the weekend
Are you suggesting Spencer was selected on a wing & a prayer? That doesn’t sound like something JvG would do.
Quote:He said they might do this on Wednesday:Bath HammerQuote:theredseat
Think that's just hurdle one for Spencer. Fit enough to be named but JvG suggested that would be the case but we may have to adjust things over the weekend
Are you suggesting Spencer was selected on a wing & a prayer? That doesn’t sound like something JvG would do.
“We'll wait until after training on Friday to see where we are. Our final training session will be when we've already had to officially announce the team, so we will only know by Friday after the session.”
Quote:A.M 180Quote:He said they might do this on Wednesday:Bath HammerQuote:theredseat
Think that's just hurdle one for Spencer. Fit enough to be named but JvG suggested that would be the case but we may have to adjust things over the weekend
Are you suggesting Spencer was selected on a wing & a prayer? That doesn’t sound like something JvG would do.
“We'll wait until after training on Friday to see where we are. Our final training session will be when we've already had to officially announce the team, so we will only know by Friday after the session.”
Oh, worrying!
Yeh but Mojo, Redpath and Jcok didn’t even make it to the final session, so Spencer must be very close, if not fit.
Quote:dr.bath1865
Yeh but Mojo, Redpath and Jcok didn’t even make it to the final session, so Spencer must be very close, if not fit.
Hopefully. I suppose alternative is that you wouldn’t want multiple changes over the weekend and Spencer is more important so you don’t risk the others and give him every chance to get on the field.
These injuries are coming just at the wrong time, though there’s never a right time. We have an important match with Exeter next Sunday.
Exeter have their own injury issues at the moment. We’re at the pointy end of the season and inevitably people are going to miss some time - it’s just a shame it’s the biggest game of the year so far!
On another note Bath & Toulon qualified from the same group.
Didn’t the same happen with Bath & Brive in 1998?
Didn’t the same happen with Bath & Brive in 1998?
Quote:And we had to beat French opposition in the semi-final...nigewing
On another note Bath & Toulon qualified from the same group.
Didn’t the same happen with Bath & Brive in 1998?
Didn’t JVG say during the week that Team Selection would be submitted before Captain’s Run (final training session)?
Spencer withdrew during warm up before so 🤞he starts.
Spencer withdrew during warm up before so 🤞he starts.
Jesze , lots to unpick here!
None of the rumoured UBB injury issues seem to have transpired?
Pleased for opti that tdt gets the start. Ali's point about tdt maybe switching across to LH for a bit is an interesting one. An option we should be open to.
Pleased that there is some element of selection based on form. Reid made the prem final starting xv through sheer weight of performance and bayliss has been phenomenal this season- I think to make that starting backrow is a huge achievement. Hill/ underhill/ reid off hench- blimey!
Hennessey selection is brave and one I hoped for but didn't expect. He is class , in form, a big guy who picks great lines and chuffed for him. Butt not making the 23 is a bit of a surprise and leaves us with no centre cover.
Gutted for mojo/ cam/ big joe they didn't make the final mix. Fingers and toes crossed for speno- agree that being named doesn't guarantee much!
None of the rumoured UBB injury issues seem to have transpired?
Pleased for opti that tdt gets the start. Ali's point about tdt maybe switching across to LH for a bit is an interesting one. An option we should be open to.
Pleased that there is some element of selection based on form. Reid made the prem final starting xv through sheer weight of performance and bayliss has been phenomenal this season- I think to make that starting backrow is a huge achievement. Hill/ underhill/ reid off hench- blimey!
Hennessey selection is brave and one I hoped for but didn't expect. He is class , in form, a big guy who picks great lines and chuffed for him. Butt not making the 23 is a bit of a surprise and leaves us with no centre cover.
Gutted for mojo/ cam/ big joe they didn't make the final mix. Fingers and toes crossed for speno- agree that being named doesn't guarantee much!
Quote:NGSB
Good luck from Franklins Gardens 😇
Thanks NGSB, they will give it their best but a slice of luck will definitely be needed.
How's the nerves?
I'm buzzing, not going to sleep much tonight as just when I convince myself we are going to do well the doubt kicks in.
Need a few more drinks.
I'm buzzing, not going to sleep much tonight as just when I convince myself we are going to do well the doubt kicks in.
Need a few more drinks.
Nerves are ok at the mo after a good day in Bordeaux watching the other games 🇪🇪
Widcombe Garçon
Widcombe Garçon
Morning all! More excited than nervous this morning. Should be a cracking match and I'm seeing this more like a free hit, just really hope we can show some glimpses of how much fun this team can be when things click. Whatever happens, will be a great experience for the whole squad. And... who knows... it's the hope that kills..!
Definitely nervous excited! Feels like it's going to be a long slow morning.
Very envious of everyone in Bordeaux right now. What a place to build up to a big match.
What will be, will be. If we show the same heart as last Saturday, I think we can all be happy
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:08:38:05 by A.M 180.
What will be, will be. If we show the same heart as last Saturday, I think we can all be happy
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:08:38:05 by A.M 180.
Sadly cannot be in Bordeaux as am with Bath Male Choir in Cornwall.
We have provided the warm up by winning the Choir competition.
Hope it is an omen!🇪🇪
PG
We have provided the warm up by winning the Choir competition.
Hope it is an omen!🇪🇪
PG
Quote:P G Tips
Sadly cannot be in Bordeaux as am with Bath Male Choir in Cornwall.
We have provided the warm up by winning the Choir competition.
Hope it is an omen!🇪🇪
PG
Well done to you all PGT. Great achievement 🤓
Seems strange to be back in Bordeaux for the first time since 98. Hopeful but doubtful of the same outcome.
To second NGSB, will be roaring you on from Northampton.
Go well everyone and enjoy a great day out.
All the best from us saintly ones...
Go well everyone and enjoy a great day out.
All the best from us saintly ones...
Quote:cparksaint
To second NGSB, will be roaring you on from Northampton.
Go well everyone and enjoy a great day out.
All the best from us saintly ones...
Thanks both, it’s a huge hill to climb beating the best in their back yard but very much forward to seeing how the get on. COYB!
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Forecast saying it should ease up by KO.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Appreciate the well wishes of Saints visitors – I'm sure most here were rooting for you against UBB last year.
I think I've calculated this correctly, but looking at the last 10 league and Europe games (ie no Prem Cup) we're averaging 13.9 points in the last 20 minutes of matches, whereas UBB average 8.3. I suspect that spread will narrow in a knockout game like today's but I thought it was very interesting.
I think I've calculated this correctly, but looking at the last 10 league and Europe games (ie no Prem Cup) we're averaging 13.9 points in the last 20 minutes of matches, whereas UBB average 8.3. I suspect that spread will narrow in a knockout game like today's but I thought it was very interesting.
Quote:Mini Maximus
Appreciate the well wishes of Saints visitors – I'm sure most here were rooting for you against UBB last year.
.
I certainly was and I also appreciate the mutual respect growing between us and saints
Quote:A.M 180
Went back and checked and no names on the shirts against Northampton
Good to know. Hopefully a news free hour from us now then
Might be moot, but assume we would have to play in white IF we were to make a final, given Leinster are higher seeds
I'm going to have to watch as much as possible of the Snooker to keep the heart rate down, then make the switch late on
Quote:A.M 180
Right, TV is on
It is wet...
Might need ten more minutes of snooker…
Will Kelleher saying delay wasn't because of weather, but fans being outside the stadium
"Kick-off delayed due to lightning strikes near the stadium," according to the Grauniad
Quote:A.M 180
Will Kelleher saying delay wasn't because of weather, but fans being outside the stadium
Failing to get crowd management right and convenient lack of replays when it suits. The hallmarks of sport in France
We're in this. Just got to cut out the silly mistakes. Comms team a disgrace.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
It's just hard to live with.
It's why you shouldn't really drop it where Dunny did
It's why you shouldn't really drop it where Dunny did
Quote:And we've done it againA.M 180
It's just hard to live with.
It's why you shouldn't really drop it where Dunny did
It is a monumentally tough ask at this stage.
We need to find some oxygen in our lungs at half-time
We need to find some oxygen in our lungs at half-time
Halftime changes? Barbeary off, Reid on?
Need to cut out these errors. Giving them easy entry into our 22.
Need to cut out these errors. Giving them easy entry into our 22.
Definitely signs in the last 10 mins that we're starting to crack.
Need one of those legendary JVG half time talks.
Need one of those legendary JVG half time talks.
We’re doing ok here. Attack is functioning the way you’d want and set piece is solid enough.
Small things need some extra precision. More accuracy, make better first up tackles. We’ve got another gear. Listening to Goode and Dallagio you’d think we’re stinking it out though.
Muir an undisputed 10/10 first half.
Small things need some extra precision. More accuracy, make better first up tackles. We’ve got another gear. Listening to Goode and Dallagio you’d think we’re stinking it out though.
Muir an undisputed 10/10 first half.
We;ve played most of the rugby but have been wasteful in their 22, and struggle when they put pace on it.
Was there not a clear shoulder to Alfie's head before one of horse's tries?
Big ask from 12 down now.
Was there not a clear shoulder to Alfie's head before one of horse's tries?
Big ask from 12 down now.
Tighten up the errors and we've still a chance but it is galling that we're being forced into hurrying things. UBB are a very good side but they've not had to do too much so far.
On the upside, we're not our standard 21 points down at 1/2 time!
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:16:05:58 by joethefanatic.
On the upside, we're not our standard 21 points down at 1/2 time!
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:16:05:58 by joethefanatic.
In to the unknown here
No expectation the bench is going to change the game
Just comes down to if we can create some magic, and keep Bordeaux out
No expectation the bench is going to change the game
Just comes down to if we can create some magic, and keep Bordeaux out
Quote:A.M 180
In to the unknown here
No expectation the bench is going to change the game
Just comes down to if we can create some magic, and keep Bordeaux out
I don't think we need magic, we just need to stop making mistakes. Easier said than done tho.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Dunn off
Like the prospect of Kepu in this match but big test of the lineout
Like the prospect of Kepu in this match but big test of the lineout
The official team is simply nowhere near the standard required for this level
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
TMO woken from his 60 minute nap.
Apparently we only need to commit an offence once to be carded.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Apparently we only need to commit an offence once to be carded.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:A.M 180
Winning this with 14 feels a tough ask
Especially when playing 16
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Bit like watching the Saints at times. Making some bad mistakes but French tv rubbing it in. Why you need home semi finals
Quote:Flyhooker
Bit like watching the Saints at times. Making some bad mistakes but French tv rubbing it in. Why you need home semi finals
Semifinal should be neutral venues
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
We are not going to win trophies with this line out
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
The referee who normally I would say is one of the better ones is not giving us any decisions and as for the French TV directors it’s an absolute disgrace that the ERC allows biased feeds to be shown to both the crowds and I assume the TMO to make the right decisions. We should’ve seen a yellow card going the other way earlier and a couple of High shots which weren’t even reviewed. Admittedly there’s been some awful handling mistakes but these kind of decisions just make a complete farce of the game.
Game over
A test we just didn't quite have the answers for despite some good preparations by the coaching staff, and intensity throughout the squad. That fills me with confidence for the rest of the season.
Hard to compete with this lot for so many reasons
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:16:55:28 by A.M 180.
A test we just didn't quite have the answers for despite some good preparations by the coaching staff, and intensity throughout the squad. That fills me with confidence for the rest of the season.
Hard to compete with this lot for so many reasons
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:16:55:28 by A.M 180.
Just too may things at a 6/10 that need to be at least 7 or 8 to win a game like that in the end. Handling, line out, first up tackling, pick and go all below par unfortunately.
Muir immense. Bayliss and Spencer excellent. Hennessey is special. Not to be
Muir immense. Bayliss and Spencer excellent. Hennessey is special. Not to be
A learning experience for the squad, now back to the Prem and retaining our Crown!
Just watched the match. Beaten by the better side and most of our mistakes were just a reflection of that. When you are under the pump you don't get the breaks and we didn't. But we cannot in all honesty say we deserved to win that game. The one out pick and goes in particular are very annoying. UBB were just waiting for our carrier to get isolated and then picking him off. We've been doing this a lot lately in the Prem and its costing us penalties big time. In a pretty anonymous display by the whole side, the only one of our players who had a real standout performance was Horse. I hope he'll be OK for the rest of the run in.
My MotM - Matthieu Jalibert. He looked like he knew exactly what he wanted to do for the whole game whereas we spent 80 minutes reacting to him. That made all the difference.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:17:13:56 by joethefanatic.
My MotM - Matthieu Jalibert. He looked like he knew exactly what he wanted to do for the whole game whereas we spent 80 minutes reacting to him. That made all the difference.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:17:13:56 by joethefanatic.
Quote:Thishasta
Can't blame the ref for our knock-ons and our lineout
The knock ons for the try then penalty in the 1st half swung the game heavily in their direction
Brave performance but a little inaccurate at crucial moments. Thought Hennessey was brilliant in particular.
We struggled in the second half having played most of the rugby in the first and failed to take our chances in their 22.
Still think there was a shoulder to Alfie's head in the first half with no mitigation but wasn't looked at, and that could have changed the game.
When Spencer hoofed it 90 m up field it should have been a 5 m lineout, not 10+, but we then over threw it anyway - trhat could have shifted the momentum our way.
I think it was a game we could have won if we had been more accurate and clinical, and UBB were very clinical, that was the difference.
I think Horse broke his arm from the pictures.
gGood thing is the players looked absolutely gutted.
Still think there was a shoulder to Alfie's head in the first half with no mitigation but wasn't looked at, and that could have changed the game.
When Spencer hoofed it 90 m up field it should have been a 5 m lineout, not 10+, but we then over threw it anyway - trhat could have shifted the momentum our way.
I think it was a game we could have won if we had been more accurate and clinical, and UBB were very clinical, that was the difference.
I think Horse broke his arm from the pictures.
gGood thing is the players looked absolutely gutted.
Quote:theredseat
Just too may things at a 6/10 that need to be at least 7 or 8 to win a game like that in the end. Handling, line out, first up tackling, pick and go all below par unfortunately.
Muir immense. Bayliss and Spencer excellent. Hennessey is special. Not to be
Yeah agree with this, few too many 6/10 is the right description.
A word for the crowd and the atmosphere - phenomenal.
A word for the stadium queueing and loos - primitive.
No shame in losing by 12 points to the world's best club side away from home and I'm proud of the boys for the fight they showed throughout.
It's a shame we didn't perform at our highest level skills-wise today – eliminate the sloppy knock-ons and dysfunctional lineout and we could have pushed them all the way.
It's a shame we didn't perform at our highest level skills-wise today – eliminate the sloppy knock-ons and dysfunctional lineout and we could have pushed them all the way.
Quote:Dorset Boy
Still think there was a shoulder to Alfie's head in the first half with no mitigation but wasn't looked at, and that could have changed the game.
Yep, you’d say on balance UBB still likely to win, but games like this can change momentum very quickly and that could have been a big shift in our favour
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:Dorset Boy
Still think there was a shoulder to Alfie's head in the first half with no mitigation but wasn't looked at, and that could have changed the game.
Yep, you’d say on balance UBB still likely to win, but games like this can change momentum very quickly and that could have been a big shift in our favour
Might have made it 15 vs 15 though!
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:Dorset Boy
Still think there was a shoulder to Alfie's head in the first half with no mitigation but wasn't looked at, and that could have changed the game.
Yep, you’d say on balance UBB still likely to win, but games like this can change momentum very quickly and that could have been a big shift in our favour
Might have made it 15 vs 15 though!
🤣
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
No shame in that loss at all. Don’t want to be a salty fan but it makes you wonder what could have been if a couple of big calls went our way. Lucu headshot on Barbeary could have been a red but he ends up winning MOTM instead.
What could have been…
Nonetheless, very proud of our team! To think that we really didn’t get the rub of the green but still be within touching distance shows how far we’ve come as a club.
What could have been…
Nonetheless, very proud of our team! To think that we really didn’t get the rub of the green but still be within touching distance shows how far we’ve come as a club.
Frustrating watch but you can’t fault anyone for giving 100% effort - just the execution slightly off. Proud of the whole team for giving it a shot, and Finn is right in that this is a learning curve and now we know!
French TV farcical, something really should be done!
French TV farcical, something really should be done!
Quote:Dorset Boy
There was also the shoulder to Alfie's head
Yeah looking at that photo makes me think it definitely should be a red. Lucu no attempt to lower at all. Bordeaux down to 14, lose their goal kicker and captain…
I suppose the result is what we expected but there is a genuine feeling it was a game we could have won. Some crucial errors and questionable refereeing didn't help but ultimately UBB confirmed their standing as favourites. Personally I'm proud of our players, they've got 2 days off to reflect and recover then it's back to preparing for Exeter and the defence of their title.
We probably shouldn’t blame the ref but everything he did was in BB’s favour and the TV editor shouldn’t be allowed to choose what incidents to replay.
Hard to compete with a team on a different budget all together and wrongly given home advantage. Final score totally flattered BB, but I do hope they stuff Ireland in the final.
Hard to compete with a team on a different budget all together and wrongly given home advantage. Final score totally flattered BB, but I do hope they stuff Ireland in the final.
It was always a tough ask and, at that level, you can't make mistakes, let alone compound them.
Lineout needs sorting urgently as it is the kind of thing that will, and has, cost us.
Cut the errors out we could have won that but, boy, the french use of replays is clearly biased. That can't be allowed to persist.
Lineout needs sorting urgently as it is the kind of thing that will, and has, cost us.
Cut the errors out we could have won that but, boy, the french use of replays is clearly biased. That can't be allowed to persist.
Valiant effort from the lads, can’t fault any one of them. They tried their best but not to be on the day. Now need to pick themselves up for the Prem which is going to be a tough ask away against a top 4 team.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:17:51:29 by BathMatt53.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:17:51:29 by BathMatt53.
Well played boys unfortunately you are just not going to get the decisions. Personally I feel the officials were really poor today typified by Charlie Ewels yellow card given Bordeaux’s repeated behaviour in their 22 and the warning issued.
Ben Whitehouse in the TMO truck must have been sleeping he missed so much it was incredible TBH.
Bordeaux deserved the victory and well played so glad our boys did not give up when everything was against them, just pray and hope Horse’s injury is not too bad albeit it did not look good.
Ben Whitehouse in the TMO truck must have been sleeping he missed so much it was incredible TBH.
Bordeaux deserved the victory and well played so glad our boys did not give up when everything was against them, just pray and hope Horse’s injury is not too bad albeit it did not look good.
The biased nature of the TV, low quality refereeing and the utterly incompetent TMO really highlighted by Bath getting a yellow and BB not even checked for blatant foul play.
Quote:Yes definitelyhasta
Muir's arm looked fractured, pretty sure he's done for the season
Incredible performance from Horse, but more opportunities for Hennessy and we all love Joe C
With both yourselves and Chiefs losing the closing stages of the Prem will be full-blooded at least.
I hope Muir isn't as bad as it sounds he had a really impressive game.
I hope Muir isn't as bad as it sounds he had a really impressive game.
Awful for Muir, but does give more chance for Hennessy who is ascending rapidly to the level of “must play”
Two things for me.
The absolute most farcical thing in rugby union is not the conduct of French TV producers/directors/decision makers, but that they are allowed to conduct themselves that way. I don't think they lost us the game but the fact that they do it every time and everyone seems to shrug/laugh it off is so odd to me. Surely that is an obvious problem and an easy fix?
Secondly, I'd been swept up in the school of thought that this year would be Bath's best/only shot at winning this comp with the squad we've currently got - TdT in particular. Now, with how we played and the likes of Hennessy going as well as they did, I'm pretty convinced we've got a few more goes at it.
Really like UBB, hope they win it back.
The absolute most farcical thing in rugby union is not the conduct of French TV producers/directors/decision makers, but that they are allowed to conduct themselves that way. I don't think they lost us the game but the fact that they do it every time and everyone seems to shrug/laugh it off is so odd to me. Surely that is an obvious problem and an easy fix?
Secondly, I'd been swept up in the school of thought that this year would be Bath's best/only shot at winning this comp with the squad we've currently got - TdT in particular. Now, with how we played and the likes of Hennessy going as well as they did, I'm pretty convinced we've got a few more goes at it.
Really like UBB, hope they win it back.
Think if I could pick the team in retrospect and without injuries I’d be going Max O + Hennessey. Just didn’t seem like Finn was able to drop back into that space and give us width. The pick and go obsession was an unwelcome throw-back.
Quote:JK7
. Now, with how we played and the likes of Hennessy going as well as they did, I'm pretty convinced we've got a few more goes at it.
Really like UBB, hope they win it back.
That oft repeated statement that we ‘have’ to win it this year has annoyed me for quite a while now. Imagine we end up with a similar route to the final that a distinctly under whelming Leinster had this year, you would definitely back us to reach the final even without TDT.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:hasta
Muir's arm looked fractured, pretty sure he's done for the season
Agree, looked like a broken arm to me.
So many comments around, even from non-Bath fans, about the poor officiating and total abject failure to look at the clear head contacts.
ERC and the 6N really do need to do something about the lack of replays of foul play by french teams .
UEFA have a broadcast standard across production for it's Champions League games and host browdcasters which by and large is on the money. Less stakes in that replays can't impact officials ofc
If EPCR/6N do, it's hard to see in action
The other option is kill all big screens in stadiums showing anything other than live action, and give TMO more time to review things but would likely lead to a slow down in games which I'm not sure I personally can tolerate
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:19:06:31 by A.M 180.
If EPCR/6N do, it's hard to see in action
The other option is kill all big screens in stadiums showing anything other than live action, and give TMO more time to review things but would likely lead to a slow down in games which I'm not sure I personally can tolerate
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:19:06:31 by A.M 180.
Is Will Muir the most underrated player in rugby? Has the be up there. As impactful as Henry and Joe and others are, I'd have Muir in the team every time.
Up there with Ted as the most criminally underused by Borthwick.
Up there with Ted as the most criminally underused by Borthwick.
Quote:Indeed, a slightly better pool stage performance would could have changed the seeding for the knockout stages and then who knows…Toast and MarmiteQuote:JK7
. Now, with how we played and the likes of Hennessy going as well as they did, I'm pretty convinced we've got a few more goes at it.
Really like UBB, hope they win it back.
That oft repeated statement that we ‘have’ to win it this year has annoyed me for quite a while now. Imagine we end up with a similar route to the final that a distinctly under whelming Leinster had this year, you would definitely back us to reach the final even without TDT.
A few points:
The AI summary was pretty accurate even to timing of Tameifuna’s intervention.
Bordeaux beat Bath at their own game with their bomb squad.
I failed to realise that TV coverage, the Ref and the TMO were part of ‘Le Handicap”. This needs to be officially reviewed it happens too often in France.
Both finalists effectively played ‘at home’ to get to the final in Bilbao. If that game were played at a neutral venue with quality refereeing the result might well be different.
Question: For those who enjoy seeing Leinster lose, do you want them to lose in this Champions Cup final?
I don’t think TdT’s starting worked but equally I’m not sure TdT coming on as a sub would have worked either.
I suspect the physical attrition of this competition will affect our Prem chances. We'll see Monday.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
The AI summary was pretty accurate even to timing of Tameifuna’s intervention.
Bordeaux beat Bath at their own game with their bomb squad.
I failed to realise that TV coverage, the Ref and the TMO were part of ‘Le Handicap”. This needs to be officially reviewed it happens too often in France.
Both finalists effectively played ‘at home’ to get to the final in Bilbao. If that game were played at a neutral venue with quality refereeing the result might well be different.
Question: For those who enjoy seeing Leinster lose, do you want them to lose in this Champions Cup final?
I don’t think TdT’s starting worked but equally I’m not sure TdT coming on as a sub would have worked either.
I suspect the physical attrition of this competition will affect our Prem chances. We'll see Monday.
Quote:Optimist
Ted isn’t exactly over-used by JVG either.
Couldn’t agree more
Absolute Farce.
Proud of the boys playing an un-salary capped team with home advantage, a low quality Ref swayed by the home crowd, a French TV director only showing bath errors or infringements clear and obvious red cards ignored, a clear knock on after the disallowed try which was was being showed only to cut away and never seen again.
We weren't perfect but we should have/ could have been closer.
Proud of the boys playing an un-salary capped team with home advantage, a low quality Ref swayed by the home crowd, a French TV director only showing bath errors or infringements clear and obvious red cards ignored, a clear knock on after the disallowed try which was was being showed only to cut away and never seen again.
We weren't perfect but we should have/ could have been closer.
Quote:We on here will see on Wednesday of course, but can assume Muir is out. Spencer isn't 100% fit to me but will clearly be managed to see out the season. Other than that? Sore bodies for sure, and those who missed this week can't be far off.shipwrecked
I suspect the physical attrition of this competition will affect our Prem chances. We'll see Monday.
All focus now on the PREM. Seal a Top 2 and we're in with as good a chance as we were at the same time last season
Question: For those who enjoy seeing Leinster lose, do you want them to lose in this Champions Cup final?
Answer: Yes a bit
I was in Dublin when they lost to La Rochelle, and the only people happier than the french were the Red Shirted Munstermen! It was joyful and funny at the same time....
Answer: Yes a bit
I was in Dublin when they lost to La Rochelle, and the only people happier than the french were the Red Shirted Munstermen! It was joyful and funny at the same time....
I'd rather UBB win the final than Leinster.
They play good rugby, and it's not their fault the officating team weren't up tp it, and failed to give the red and yellows that were deserved.
They play good rugby, and it's not their fault the officating team weren't up tp it, and failed to give the red and yellows that were deserved.
Quote:WasBBWBaaBaa
Question: For those who enjoy seeing Leinster lose, do you want them to lose in this Champions Cup final?
Answer: Yes a bit
Oh I’m 100% team UBB in a few weeks time
Loved Beno's post match interview - his mindset is brilliant.
A wise man once said "the best is yet to come".
Another said "dust yourself off and move on to next week's game".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:19:48:41 by Benisjammin.
A wise man once said "the best is yet to come".
Another said "dust yourself off and move on to next week's game".
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:19:48:41 by Benisjammin.
Hugely proud. Only became apparent the size of the task in the game, with the 40,000 French fans and seeing how well they play. They’re such a good team, so well coached and with brilliant players. We should be so proud of the game we gave them. We had them rattled in the third quarter, and had we got a TMO decision in our favour, or held the line out, or Ollie doesn’t lose his marbles and jump on top of a maul (??!!), who knows. But can’t fault any of our guys- no shame in that performance or result.
I think we’ll be invigorated for the league return. We went toe to toe with the best club side in the world today, and I don’t think anyone, including Saints, would’ve done better. The league defence can be ours if we turn up with the right attitude this week. Allez Bath!
I think we’ll be invigorated for the league return. We went toe to toe with the best club side in the world today, and I don’t think anyone, including Saints, would’ve done better. The league defence can be ours if we turn up with the right attitude this week. Allez Bath!
Asked if there is a problem with French broadcasters providing footage, Van Graan told BBC Sport: "Yes. All we want is consistency on both sides of the ball right through the competition.
"I believe specifically that three carries from Alfie Barbeary made direct contact to the head.
"I want to make clear that the better team won on the day, but I want to ask why certain things are not picked up when you play away from home in France."
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
"I believe specifically that three carries from Alfie Barbeary made direct contact to the head.
"I want to make clear that the better team won on the day, but I want to ask why certain things are not picked up when you play away from home in France."
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Stats make for interesting reading. We're rightly fixated on the lineout, but a tackle success of just 56% isn't going to win many games either:
[www.epcrugby.com]
[www.epcrugby.com]
Quote:It's a shockingly low number BUT, don't think it tells the full story. Defence isn't only about tacklesMini Maximus
Stats make for interesting reading. We're rightly fixated on the lineout, but a tackle success of just 56% isn't going to win many games either:
[www.epcrugby.com]
Quote:BathMatt53
Asked if there is a problem with French broadcasters providing footage, Van Graan told BBC Sport: "Yes. All we want is consistency on both sides of the ball right through the competition.
"I believe specifically that three carries from Alfie Barbeary made direct contact to the head.
"I want to make clear that the better team won on the day, but I want to ask why certain things are not picked up when you play away from home in France."
That is an extraordinary quote from JvG who is usually silent when it comes to officiating.
Quote:Benisjammin
Loved Beno's post match interview - his mindset is brilliant.
A wise man once said "the best is yet to come".
Another said "dust yourself off and move on to next week's game".
He’s the absolute best.
Quote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53
Asked if there is a problem with French broadcasters providing footage, Van Graan told BBC Sport: "Yes. All we want is consistency on both sides of the ball right through the competition.
"I believe specifically that three carries from Alfie Barbeary made direct contact to the head.
"I want to make clear that the better team won on the day, but I want to ask why certain things are not picked up when you play away from home in France."
That is an extraordinary quote from JvG who is usually silent when it comes to officiating.
Agreed, never heard JvG say anything like that before.
Hopefully there is an offical complaint made to EPRC to ensure that there is fairness in future, along with highlighting the lack of neutral venues.
I took that quote a bit out of context to be fair - it’s a criticism of the broadcasters not the officials which he said were excellent:
Van Graan added: "Three words [points I would like to make]. Congrats to UBB, they were the better side. Number two the officials were exceptionally good today. The main point I want to make is that from a consistency point of view that where every game is played that the TMO [television match official] gets access to all the footage he wants.
"From my point of view, you want the match officials to know what they are looking at. Whatever decision a ref makes is the final call."
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:20:23:31 by BathMatt53.
Van Graan added: "Three words [points I would like to make]. Congrats to UBB, they were the better side. Number two the officials were exceptionally good today. The main point I want to make is that from a consistency point of view that where every game is played that the TMO [television match official] gets access to all the footage he wants.
"From my point of view, you want the match officials to know what they are looking at. Whatever decision a ref makes is the final call."
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:20:23:31 by BathMatt53.
Quote:Without hearing his voice, hard to tell if it's coming from a place of prolonged frustration - cant really remember the Castres or Toulon games well enough to think of other incidents.Dorset BoyQuote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53
Asked if there is a problem with French broadcasters providing footage, Van Graan told BBC Sport: "Yes. All we want is consistency on both sides of the ball right through the competition.
"I believe specifically that three carries from Alfie Barbeary made direct contact to the head.
"I want to make clear that the better team won on the day, but I want to ask why certain things are not picked up when you play away from home in France."
That is an extraordinary quote from JvG who is usually silent when it comes to officiating.
Agreed, never heard JvG say anything like that before.
Hopefully there is an offical complaint made to EPRC to ensure that there is fairness in future, along with highlighting the lack of neutral venues.
Quote:A.M 180Quote:Without hearing his voice, hard to tell if it's coming from a place of prolonged frustration - cant really remember the Castres or Toulon games well enough to think of other incidents.Dorset BoyQuote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53
Asked if there is a problem with French broadcasters providing footage, Van Graan told BBC Sport: "Yes. All we want is consistency on both sides of the ball right through the competition.
"I believe specifically that three carries from Alfie Barbeary made direct contact to the head.
"I want to make clear that the better team won on the day, but I want to ask why certain things are not picked up when you play away from home in France."
That is an extraordinary quote from JvG who is usually silent when it comes to officiating.
Agreed, never heard JvG say anything like that before.
Hopefully there is an offical complaint made to EPRC to ensure that there is fairness in future, along with highlighting the lack of neutral venues.
This has been an issue for every club/nation playing in France for some time now. They really shouldn't sink to it, they're good enough to win without the help. Whichever authority has power here needs to wake up.
I'd say that JvG now knows what he can get away with in terms of team selection, Redpath or Mojo at 12 makes a big difference in backs defence with top class wingers to account for out wide. Ollie at 12 isn't ideal.
Carerras at 15 was an attacking threat but is he the best defender?
We need a line out jumper who is a banker or Ted Hill as an extra jumper/stealer. We missed, Mojo. Cam and probably Joe C as well. We also need Will Stuart back. Will Muir is a big loss, he makes our kick chase work.
If Ben Spencer isn't fit can we afford to have him under operating? BvDL was just beginning to look good!
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Carerras at 15 was an attacking threat but is he the best defender?
We need a line out jumper who is a banker or Ted Hill as an extra jumper/stealer. We missed, Mojo. Cam and probably Joe C as well. We also need Will Stuart back. Will Muir is a big loss, he makes our kick chase work.
If Ben Spencer isn't fit can we afford to have him under operating? BvDL was just beginning to look good!
Hope that Spenny came through without further shoulder damage. Have said all season that among the worldies in the squad, he is the one who is irreplaceable. If he doesnt see the season out id question any trophy at all
Quote:I've seen it, and it's even more surprising than I thought.A.M 180Quote:Without hearing his voice, hard to tell if it's coming from a place of prolonged frustration - cant really remember the Castres or Toulon games well enough to think of other incidents.Dorset BoyQuote:shipwreckedQuote:BathMatt53
Asked if there is a problem with French broadcasters providing footage, Van Graan told BBC Sport: "Yes. All we want is consistency on both sides of the ball right through the competition.
"I believe specifically that three carries from Alfie Barbeary made direct contact to the head.
"I want to make clear that the better team won on the day, but I want to ask why certain things are not picked up when you play away from home in France."
That is an extraordinary quote from JvG who is usually silent when it comes to officiating.
Agreed, never heard JvG say anything like that before.
Hopefully there is an offical complaint made to EPRC to ensure that there is fairness in future, along with highlighting the lack of neutral venues.
It's not exactly Rafa Benitez's 'Mr Ferguson' rant but it won't take much for people trying to portray it like that.
Appreciate I'm contributing to the problem here, but would rather we don't come away looking bitter from this when it's clearly obvious we were 2nd best today
Quote:BathMatt53
"I believe specifically that three carries from Alfie Barbeary made direct contact to the head."
Yet Barbeary wasn't subbed till 53 minutes in a standard sub along with Pepper.
Given comments about IFW and Baxter elsewhere here should you be asking why Barbeary was left on? I get that not all head contact is a HIA, is a subbing, etc but if JVG really thinks there were two let alone three in a row?
I think he makes a good point about that lack of images though. They did manage to get them for writing off a UBB try though so it sometimes works.
Tony Spreadbury addressed the issue of broadcaster control of replays in “Ask the Ref”.
He told us that EPCR lays down ground rules for broadcasters on providing replay footage when requested by refs, at the beginning of each season.
It appears therefore that the rule is there but maybe it is being flouted? That suggests some sharper teeth are required.
PG
He told us that EPCR lays down ground rules for broadcasters on providing replay footage when requested by refs, at the beginning of each season.
It appears therefore that the rule is there but maybe it is being flouted? That suggests some sharper teeth are required.
PG
[quote PaulHerox][quote BathMatt53]
I think he makes a good point about that lack of images though. They did manage to get them for writing off a UBB try though so it sometimes works.[/quote]
Was that the one where they went on to score from the penalty after we got the yellow, which we wouldn't have had if the original try was given? That worked out well!
I think he makes a good point about that lack of images though. They did manage to get them for writing off a UBB try though so it sometimes works.[/quote]
Was that the one where they went on to score from the penalty after we got the yellow, which we wouldn't have had if the original try was given? That worked out well!
Quote:Could be wrong, but is the issue that the replay wasn't requested, because the game wasn't stopped.P G Tips
Tony Spreadbury addressed the issue of broadcaster control of replays in “Ask the Ref”.
He told us that EPCR lays down ground rules for broadcasters on providing replay footage when requested by refs, at the beginning of each season.
It appears therefore that the rule is there but maybe it is being flouted? That suggests some sharper teeth are required.
PG
In the interest of time, I'm assuming TMOs rely on the broadcast feed when referees say they have a clear view on the field.
It's never been clear to me if TMOs are sat next to an independent replay operator or not, or whether they are communicating with the broadcast truck for the angles they want in a review scenario.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:03:21:45:47 by A.M 180.
Quote:JK7
Was that the one where they went on to score from the penalty after we got the yellow, which we wouldn't have had if the original try was given? That worked out well!
I mean obviously the French TV are a bunch of nefarious so and sos but I don't think even they can predict the future and made sure a try was ruled out so you could get a card and concede a try!
Quote:Bath Blues
Absolute Farce.
Proud of the boys playing an un-salary capped team with home advantage, a low quality Ref swayed by the home crowd, a French TV director only showing bath errors or infringements clear and obvious red cards ignored, a clear knock on after the disallowed try which was was being showed only to cut away and never seen again.
We weren't perfect but we should have/ could have been closer.
+1
Proud of the team, but bitter about the cheating in favour of French teams. I guess EPCR got the final they wanted.
Really hope BB do a number on Ireland though.
Just re-read your match preview Shipwrecked - you pretty much got it spot on I’d say. The commentary around cards was prescient in a way - you have to think that a Yellow or even red for Lucu could have closed the gap.
And no YC despite repeated penalties AFTER final warning from ref.
But Ewels YC with no warning. Not sure what for as TV didn’t show it & couldn’t hear commentary in noisy pub.
Every 50/50 & bounce went against us which compounded the 3 or 4 knock ons & lineout fails. UBB got fortunate ☹️
But Ewels YC with no warning. Not sure what for as TV didn’t show it & couldn’t hear commentary in noisy pub.
Every 50/50 & bounce went against us which compounded the 3 or 4 knock ons & lineout fails. UBB got fortunate ☹️
TBH the call that REALLY cost us was the one the TMO got right. La Mothe grounds that ball and Charlie doesn't get 10 minutes. But he didn't, he did, Big Ben scores from the next play anyway and we play the last 10 minutes with 14 against UBB. You'd have to assume that the analysts have concluded that the risk/reward favors pulling the maul down in those circumstances but it really, really doesn't feel that way to me.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Not sure what to make of all that.
I thought too many of players performed below their best, too many unforced individual errors, and too many repeating issues this issue like wobbly lineout, isolated carriers and narrow defence.
UBB clearly a class team and deserved the win but it's really hard to ignore the impact of the tv images, it's just absurd how you can have that situation- jvg never complains , and let's be clear he wasn't pointing the finger at the officials but the pictures they were supplied.
On the positives:
Think only muir injured in such a brutal games? Was hennessey struggling at the end?
Muir was unbelievable- is 7 weeks til prem final enough time to get him back if we get there?
Hennessey repaid the faith with an excellent display.
Kepu was good off the bench and sela has experienced a champions cup semi
I think our chances of winning the prem have increased significantly from not making the final
I thought too many of players performed below their best, too many unforced individual errors, and too many repeating issues this issue like wobbly lineout, isolated carriers and narrow defence.
UBB clearly a class team and deserved the win but it's really hard to ignore the impact of the tv images, it's just absurd how you can have that situation- jvg never complains , and let's be clear he wasn't pointing the finger at the officials but the pictures they were supplied.
On the positives:
Think only muir injured in such a brutal games? Was hennessey struggling at the end?
Muir was unbelievable- is 7 weeks til prem final enough time to get him back if we get there?
Hennessey repaid the faith with an excellent display.
Kepu was good off the bench and sela has experienced a champions cup semi
I think our chances of winning the prem have increased significantly from not making the final
I thought I heard someone say dislocated for Muir. Either way, he’s out for a good while. Not very classy of the crowd to be booing whilst he was clearly in a lot of pain, but at least they clapped him off the pitch. A good run for Bath, battling against a home semi, a home TMO, head shots, a shocking lineout again and second best in a few areas (their first up tackling was rapid). Let’s take it out on the Prem and leave no stone unturned.
Quote:Optimist
Just re-read your match preview Shipwrecked - you pretty much got it spot on I’d say. The commentary around cards was prescient in a way - you have to think that a Yellow or even red for Lucu could have closed the gap.
I actually considered ditching that preview because I thought it was too negative. PG added the 'Le handicap' title. If you look at some of the posts pre match, including your own you can't help being impressed by the number of accurate comments. There are some sharp rugby brains out there.
Quote:joethefanatic
TBH the call that REALLY cost us was the one the TMO got right. La Mothe grounds that ball and Charlie doesn't get 10 minutes. But he didn't, he did, Big Ben scores from the next play anyway and we play the last 10 minutes with 14 against UBB. You'd have to assume that the analysts have concluded that the risk/reward favors pulling the maul down in those circumstances but it really, really doesn't feel that way to me.
It happens less now our discipline is generally better but there’s been plenty of times when I’ve wanted Bath to let the opposition score because you know a yellow card and penalty 5m out is going to be a worse outcome.
There does also seem to be some situations where penalty advantage essentially means ‘unless you score here we’re coming back’ which I don’t love either.
I don’t know how you solve (or if we should even try to solve) this stuff but it’s frustrating when you’re on the wrong side of it
Quote:theredseatQuote:joethefanatic
TBH the call that REALLY cost us was the one the TMO got right. La Mothe grounds that ball and Charlie doesn't get 10 minutes. But he didn't, he did, Big Ben scores from the next play anyway and we play the last 10 minutes with 14 against UBB. You'd have to assume that the analysts have concluded that the risk/reward favors pulling the maul down in those circumstances but it really, really doesn't feel that way to me.
It happens less now our discipline is generally better but there’s been plenty of times when I’ve wanted Bath to let the opposition score because you know a yellow card and penalty 5m out is going to be a worse outcome.
There does also seem to be some situations where penalty advantage essentially means ‘unless you score here we’re coming back’ which I don’t love either.
I don’t know how you solve (or if we should even try to solve) this stuff but it’s frustrating when you’re on the wrong side of it
Thats at the refs discretion but if its penalty try the ref has to card the player. Also if the offence is cynical.
I agree about the frustration especially around scrum offences where teams get penalised because they are simply less skilled/talented then get penalised again losing another player because the scrum is weaker because of the first offence.
I wonder if you could up the penalty try value to say 9 but keep the full complement of players. The multiple cards thing tends to decide games.
Quote:hantssabreQuote:Optimist
Ted isn’t exactly over-used by JVG either.
Couldn’t agree more
but is Ted playing at the same level as when he came from Worcester? I think not.
I would question what that chap was doing in the TMO van. He was amazingly quiet when those head offences were committed. Surely the lack of camera angles doesn’t stop him intervening? Also, in many regards we didn’t play well, making crucial errors that led to tries. I would suggest that had we been playing Northampton Saints we would have probably lost.
Quote:Charlieboa1
I think our chances of winning the prem have increased significantly from not making the final
Charlieboa, I really hope you’re right but I’ve got a nagging feeling that the job of making a home semifinal just got a whole lot harder. Assuming that we beat Newcastle, we still need an away win (I think) to avoid an all or nothing last game against Tigers. I thought before yesterday that next Saturday against a depleted Exeter might be our best chance but the Bordeaux game was physically and mentally brutal. The team doesn’t reassemble until Wednesday which doesn’t give much time to fix the physical and psychological hangover from that game. Exeter are also in the position of needing a win in their race for a top 4 spot. It’s going to be difficult and Brizz at AG is never easy.
I have a real worry that the elephant in the room about falling short this season that I spoke about in an earlier preview might be getting louder!
Still, if anybody can steer us through this, it’s JvG.
Feeing very proud of that team this morning - going away to France against a superstar team loaded with Champions Cup experience and keeping in the fight until the very end is something special. The experience we’ve gained today, though it stings now, will be invaluable going forward.
TMO gripes aside - personally I’d like to see less focus on it as it’s starting to move in to sour grapes territory - I think the game was pretty evenly balanced. They fired shots and so did we, as a neutral I imagine it was a great game?
It’s also made up my mind to make some European travels next season, the pictures of fans in Bordeaux on social media looked fantastic so I’m hoping for a repeat next year!
TMO gripes aside - personally I’d like to see less focus on it as it’s starting to move in to sour grapes territory - I think the game was pretty evenly balanced. They fired shots and so did we, as a neutral I imagine it was a great game?
It’s also made up my mind to make some European travels next season, the pictures of fans in Bordeaux on social media looked fantastic so I’m hoping for a repeat next year!
Quote:PaulHerox
Given comments about IFW and Baxter elsewhere here should you be asking why Barbeary was left on? I get that not all head contact is a HIA, is a subbing, etc but if JVG really thinks there were two let alone three in a row?
Slight difference for me between a suspected head contact and a guy seemingly knocked out on the ground then having a spasm back into conciousness. I think that it is the independent doctor that decides whether players come off for an HIA (and get removed immediately in the case of a primary concussion symptom and start the HIA later).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:joethefanatic
You'd have to assume that the analysts have concluded that the risk/reward favors pulling the maul down
Does anyone ever deliberately/proactively pull a maul down? All I ever see is the inevitable consequence of momentum x gravity x loss of balance.
BathMatt you're totally right that there's a difference and I sort of made reference to not all head contact being the same in my original post. Pretty sure your own team can call an HIA assessment too.
Quote:PaulHerox
Pretty sure your own team can call an HIA assessment too.
Yes you are of course correct, the team doctor can call it if the MDD or ref(s) don't:
players who sustain head impact events with the potential for a concussion are identified by Match Officials, Team Doctors, pitch side medical practitioners or Independent Match Day Doctor (MDD). The identification is via direct observation, video review or instrumented mouth guard (iMG) data/alerts.
For me the IFW knock was a 'Criteria 1' event (i.e. obvious on-field signs of concussion).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
For all the furore about the referee and TMO, and to be fair I think Bath were unlucky on a couple of occasions yesterday, it should also be remembered that Bath were equally fortunate when playing in the quarter finals. Maybe what goes around comes around…..I think it’s called Karma.
Bit harsh NGSB when we’re all in mourning
Widcombe Garçon
Quote:NGSB
For all the furore about the referee and TMO, and to be fair I think Bath were unlucky on a couple of occasions yesterday, it should also be remembered that Bath were equally fortunate when playing in the quarter finals. Maybe what goes around comes around…..I think it’s called Karma.
Widcombe Garçon
Quote:NGSB
For all the furore about the referee and TMO, and to be fair I think Bath were unlucky on a couple of occasions yesterday, it should also be remembered that Bath were equally fortunate when playing in the quarter finals. Maybe what goes around comes around…..I think it’s called Karma.
Crikey, time to move on NGSB.
(for clarity, its the French broadcasters that are the focus of the ire).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:NGSB
For all the furore about the referee and TMO, and to be fair I think Bath were unlucky on a couple of occasions yesterday, it should also be remembered that Bath were equally fortunate when playing in the quarter finals. Maybe what goes around comes around…..I think it’s called Karma.
We lost to a better, stronger side away from home. I suspect that was the result most people expected if we're being honest.
But the issue for me is about player welfare and standards in the game not 'what if this, what if that'.
If we're trying to eliminate head contact from the game and avoid any further Steve Thompson-type situations then yesterday was simply not good enough for a showpiece event and it needs to be looked at and addressed because we can all see that Europe lags far behind the Prem in this regard.
Quote:NGSB
For all the furore about the referee and TMO, and to be fair I think Bath were unlucky on a couple of occasions yesterday, it should also be remembered that Bath were equally fortunate when playing in the quarter finals. Maybe what goes around comes around…..I think it’s called Karma.
Thanks for coming on our site and behaving like an uneducated troll.
[quote NGSB]For all the furore about the referee and TMO,…… it should also be remembered that Bath were equally fortunate when playing in the quarter finals.[quote]
So would you agree that there is a general issue about head contact & how it is dealt with in the game?
That it is a subject worthy of discussion?
PG
So would you agree that there is a general issue about head contact & how it is dealt with in the game?
That it is a subject worthy of discussion?
PG
A question my pal asked me was how many Bath players would be selected in a combined team based on yesterday's game? I could only think of Muir getting the shirt. As someone said above, too many 6/10 performances on the day. 💙🖤🤍
What did the French TV broadcasters do? As I understand it the tmo has access to all pitch facing cameras, they clearly do once they choose to replay an event. So unless the producers had told cameramen not to follow the play, which seems pretty unlikely.
Looks to me like the tmo just missed it. Like all reffing calls or happens.
Looks to me like the tmo just missed it. Like all reffing calls or happens.
Names on shirts.
Because they are not shown on Top 14 or URC shirts, EPCR don’t require them for European games.
Because they are not shown on Top 14 or URC shirts, EPCR don’t require them for European games.
Quote:Dan Wiley
What did the French TV broadcasters do? As I understand it the tmo has access to all pitch facing cameras, they clearly do once they choose to replay an event. So unless the producers had told cameramen not to follow the play, which seems pretty unlikely.
Looks to me like the tmo just missed it. Like all reffing calls or happens.
I think that its the flip of the Prem system where the TMO has both the pictures and the TV commentary Dan? So whether a particular event is picked up in the Prem is partly reliant on whether Austin Healey talks about it a dozen times. In France it seems to be the case (I don't have any facts about how it actually works) that their broadcaster focusses on events that affect the french team (I assume as their audience would be more interested?). This is obviously not just a Bath problem or even an English teams problem. Maybe it's not a problem at all and just our perception (including that of JVG).
In the words of the Telegraph Journo:
Still it leaves a sour taste when the match’s key decisions have to go through an extra filter of the prejudices of a French television director. To be clear this is a particularly French problem. The absence of incriminating replays does not seem to happen in other countries. Maybe it was for this reason that World Rugby made sure that TMOs had access to an independent television feed for the 2023 men’s World Cup in France.
As an example:
Instinctively, it felt like Coleman had made contact with Barbeary’s head, but the only angle shown by the initial television feed was inconclusive where that occurred. Any reverse angle would immediately have clarified the situation, but none was forthcoming and referee Nika Amashukeli said on the pitch that there was “no clear head contact”.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
The image posted by DB earlier in the thread and this one from the BBC should be widely circulated to force rugby to act.
PG noted that there are ground rules for broadcasters on providing replay footage when requested by refs. At this level, (is there higher apart from internationals?) TV coverage is part of the refereeing. To simply deny the referee the chance to see it when asked or present it when the ref has missed it is basically ruining the game as a spectacle, you could say corrupting the competition.
Its an additional layer of handicap on top of the already questionable salary cap issues and home' game' venues.
Its not the only incident either as this video show head contact with considerable force as Alfies head is jerked backwards.
There is an argument that its head to chest. I would argue if the tackle causes that violent whiplash it should make no difference.
The whole situation needs a review of procedures.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
PG noted that there are ground rules for broadcasters on providing replay footage when requested by refs. At this level, (is there higher apart from internationals?) TV coverage is part of the refereeing. To simply deny the referee the chance to see it when asked or present it when the ref has missed it is basically ruining the game as a spectacle, you could say corrupting the competition.
Its an additional layer of handicap on top of the already questionable salary cap issues and home' game' venues.
Its not the only incident either as this video show head contact with considerable force as Alfies head is jerked backwards.
There is an argument that its head to chest. I would argue if the tackle causes that violent whiplash it should make no difference.
The whole situation needs a review of procedures.
In that photo:
1. Has head contact occurred? Yes
2. Was there any foul play? Yes (player at fault rather than pure accident)
3. What was the degree of danger? Medium (YC)
• Direct vs indirect contact: indirect
• High force vs low force: medium?
• Dynamic: yes, not passive
4. Is there any mitigation?
Considerations include:
• Line of sight: he could see him
• Sudden and significant drop or movement: not that I could see from Alfie
• Clear attempt to reduce height: no
• Level of control: controlled
• Passive tackler: no, active
For me that's a yellow. Mitigation down from red for the initial chest and onto head.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
1. Has head contact occurred? Yes
2. Was there any foul play? Yes (player at fault rather than pure accident)
3. What was the degree of danger? Medium (YC)
• Direct vs indirect contact: indirect
• High force vs low force: medium?
• Dynamic: yes, not passive
4. Is there any mitigation?
Considerations include:
• Line of sight: he could see him
• Sudden and significant drop or movement: not that I could see from Alfie
• Clear attempt to reduce height: no
• Level of control: controlled
• Passive tackler: no, active
For me that's a yellow. Mitigation down from red for the initial chest and onto head.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53
For me that's a yellow. Mitigation down from red for the initial chest and onto head.
Completely agree Matt, that's a concise refs analysis. I would add though when the impact is that significant is the initial point of contact relevant?
It has virtually no affect in reducing the rattling of the brain in the skull. That is the whole point of the head height reduction. It's playing with wording again.
I have spoken to a school dad who is a freelance camera operator who made a good point, whether covering rugby, football or cricket, the camera operators are now a key part of the sports, providing replay evidence that changes the outcome of elite competition.
Now, people can make mistakes whether players, refs or holding a camera, BUT to think there is deliberate action by a TV director to withold replay evidence is terrible and needs at least an investigation. If nothing else it will clear the French TV coverage of wrong doing. Or, prove a worrying series of claims.
Not because of yesterday but based on seeing evidence from previous seasons.
Now, people can make mistakes whether players, refs or holding a camera, BUT to think there is deliberate action by a TV director to withold replay evidence is terrible and needs at least an investigation. If nothing else it will clear the French TV coverage of wrong doing. Or, prove a worrying series of claims.
Not because of yesterday but based on seeing evidence from previous seasons.
Quote:As your friend will attest, it would be extraordinarily unlucky if they only had two angles of any particular incident. These guys know where their cameras need to be pointing when the ball is in play.B4thB4ck
I have spoken to a school dad who is a freelance camera operator who made a good point, whether covering rugby, football or cricket, the camera operators are now a key part of the sports, providing replay evidence that changes the outcome of elite competition.
Now, people can make mistakes whether players, refs or holding a camera, BUT to think there is deliberate action by a TV director to withold replay evidence is terrible and needs at least an investigation. If nothing else it will clear the French TV coverage of wrong doing. Or, prove a worrying series of claims.
Not because of yesterday but based on seeing evidence from previous seasons.
If shots are getting obscured, then the stadium isn't fit for purpose or someone has seriously @#$%& up when planning positioning
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:04:11:51:18 by A.M 180.
In full agreement BB and nice to see you chipping in again.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Quote:shipwrecked
Completely agree Matt, that's a concise refs analysis. I would add though when the impact is that significant is the initial point of contact relevant?
According to the World Rugby Law Application Guidelines: Head Contact Process (that I copied from), yes it's critical. So for example targeting the ball / chest and slipping up into the face is a major mitigation point (as it should be IMO) when compared with just nutting someone in the face by accident.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:shipwrecked
Completely agree Matt, that's a concise refs analysis. I would add though when the impact is that significant is the initial point of contact relevant?
According to the World Rugby Law Application Guidelines: Head Contact Process (that I copied from), yes it's critical. So for example targeting the ball / chest and slipping up into the face is a major mitigation point (as it should be IMO) when compared with just nutting someone in the face by accident.
Agree that's the ruling Matt but should it be? Isn't the whole point that head impact leading to brain damage should be avoided.
Looking at that video Alfie's head is going forward one second then violently backwards the next. Why should the sanction be mitigated simply because of a few cms difference of impact. Its the final result that does the damage.
I think that aspect of the law need reviewing.
Quote:B4thB4ck
I have spoken to a school dad who is a freelance camera operator who made a good point, whether covering rugby, football or cricket, the camera operators are now a key part of the sports, providing replay evidence that changes the outcome of elite competition.
Now, people can make mistakes whether players, refs or holding a camera, BUT to think there is deliberate action by a TV director to withold replay evidence is terrible and needs at least an investigation. If nothing else it will clear the French TV coverage of wrong doing. Or, prove a worrying series of claims.
Not because of yesterday but based on seeing evidence from previous seasons.
The French withholding key video replays should be investigated, but given that EPCR has a French CEO that’s just not going to happen.
We can’t say BB getting the cards they deserved would have made a difference, but the challenges not even being looked at does make the loss more frustrating.
Whilst the score line flattered BB at the end of the day we weren’t good enough. To beat top French teams you have to dominate them up front, we didn’t do that and with a weaker pack for next season it’s difficult to see how we can win the CC.
Quote:shipwrecked
can't help being impressed by the number of accurate comments. There are some sharp rugby brains out there.
Likewise SW - i've learned/learn more about rugby on this board than anywhere.
Agree OB.
Personally I think the true value of this debate is wider than one match.
1. Games at this level should preferably not be blighted by entirely avoidable controversy, initiated by actors not even on the pitch.
2. The most important point - in a game facing an existential crisis from the threat of class action over CTE- manipulating evidence in cases of suspected head contact is not only dangerous for the game, but immoral.
So, our disappointment at the result should be secondary to the wider issue. I hope we would be just as concerned at similar incidents in games in which we have only neutral interest.
PG
Personally I think the true value of this debate is wider than one match.
1. Games at this level should preferably not be blighted by entirely avoidable controversy, initiated by actors not even on the pitch.
2. The most important point - in a game facing an existential crisis from the threat of class action over CTE- manipulating evidence in cases of suspected head contact is not only dangerous for the game, but immoral.
So, our disappointment at the result should be secondary to the wider issue. I hope we would be just as concerned at similar incidents in games in which we have only neutral interest.
PG
Feels like we're looking for someone to blame if I'm honest.
The tmo must have access to all feeds, if he's missed it, he's missed it. The ref saying "nothing clear and obvious" sounds like code for "there are 4 pro refs watching it and no-one of them raised a concern so we aren't going back to look at it." Seems hard to see how they all missed out but they did and it happens.
I don't think the French have done anything particularly bad not showing it. It shouldn't rely on the TV showing a replay or the commentators saying something. That's just opening it up for inconsistency however you implement things.
The tmo must have access to all feeds, if he's missed it, he's missed it. The ref saying "nothing clear and obvious" sounds like code for "there are 4 pro refs watching it and no-one of them raised a concern so we aren't going back to look at it." Seems hard to see how they all missed out but they did and it happens.
I don't think the French have done anything particularly bad not showing it. It shouldn't rely on the TV showing a replay or the commentators saying something. That's just opening it up for inconsistency however you implement things.
Dan - I don't think there's a single comment on this thread to the tune of 'we was robbed'. The simple facts are that none of the incidents cost us anything other than the 'opportunity cost' of an opposition player being dismissed for 10 or more minutes. None of the actions by UBB players gave them any actual rugby advantage. But it's also absolutely plain to see that identical incidents have resulted in yellow, often red, cards, and that 'nothing to see' was beyond ridiculous by the ref.
As clearly evidenced in the photos and videos on this thread, nothing to see is utter nonsense. Dan please look at the photos - there is very clear head contact, and Coleman also had a tucked right arm.
It is a disgrace that none of the head shots were properly reviewed, be that the usual French broadcaster bias, or sheer incompetence from the TMO.
No one knows the impact on the match, but the Coleman one was early on in the game, and both his and Lucu's look like 20 minute reds to me.
Too many people have called out the French TV production bias for this not to be properly looked at by EPCR, and a public statement to be made. But as rugby administrators don't care, nothing will come of it to the detriment of the game, and player safety.
It is a disgrace that none of the head shots were properly reviewed, be that the usual French broadcaster bias, or sheer incompetence from the TMO.
No one knows the impact on the match, but the Coleman one was early on in the game, and both his and Lucu's look like 20 minute reds to me.
Too many people have called out the French TV production bias for this not to be properly looked at by EPCR, and a public statement to be made. But as rugby administrators don't care, nothing will come of it to the detriment of the game, and player safety.
I suspect that it is also just different from what we are used to seeing in the Prem - hyper analysis of every incident from every angle.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
The disappointment is finally subsiding and I’m managing to find some positives.
I no longer need premier sports to watch European rugby so have cancelled it, thereby saving some money.
I no longer need premier sports to watch European rugby so have cancelled it, thereby saving some money.
On a different note, full respect to the team being out at the rec for a fan event 18 hours after that match.
I'm not saying there wasn't anything to see. But four well trained pairs of eyes, one with all the angles and replay, didn't see it. The ref said "nothing to see" because in that situation, where the refs all missed, we can't go back and look at every incident. That would kill the game. We have to accept refs miss things, it's not up to a TV producer to correct that. If you want to call them incompetent for that it's up to you, but I've never heard of a perfect ref.
I presume we'll cite so he won't get away with it.
I presume we'll cite so he won't get away with it.
Quote :- "On a different note, full respect to the team being out at the rec for a fan event 18 hours after that match."
Full credit to the players for turning up after that very bruising encounter!
Full credit to the players for turning up after that very bruising encounter!
Quote:BathMatt53
I suspect that it is also just different from what we are used to seeing in the Prem - hyper analysis of every incident from every angle.
Probably in a minority of one but I prefer when we don't get endless TV reviews of contestable events and back the referees decision. No ref, or TMO, is 100% perfect and the game did flow. Its just a shame that judicious use of the big screen Replay forced the ref to puncture that illusion. Would prefer if the ref ignored the big screen but if they are to use it it needs to work both ways.
Quote:Optimist
Dan - I don't think there's a single comment on this thread to the tune of 'we was robbed'. The simple facts are that none of the incidents cost us anything other than the 'opportunity cost' of an opposition player being dismissed for 10 or more minutes. None of the actions by UBB players gave them any actual rugby advantage. But it's also absolutely plain to see that identical incidents have resulted in yellow, often red, cards, and that 'nothing to see' was beyond ridiculous by the ref.
I think there is a clear hierarchy for why rugby needs to get these things right and it goes something like this:
1. Player welfare – by far the most important
2. Consistent officiating – not having different standards in the game
3. Punishing serious foul play
I don't feel robbed and I don't think anyone else here does. I didn't feel robbed last week against Saints either – Enoch should have been lower. And I also don't want to point fingers at French TV directors or officials, but we are seeing too many examples of head contact not being properly refereed and we are used to it being done pretty well in the Prem, so therefore improvements are clearly needed.
I think you could reduce the tmo reviews, and the cards that really, to a level your be happy with it you changed two laws:
- give the overwhelming advantage to the attacker in a held up situation. Unless the ref can see it clearly held up, it's a try. No more Tmo review there. There are good bits of play holding up a try, but it's not the majority of cases, usually it's just someone falling over (and aren't they illegally preventing the attacker placing the back anyway?)
- bring in the sternum height tackling, or a variation on that. No more head contact or reviews. One big advantage of this, for me, is it's really easy to ref. Yes you miss whether there was actual head contact, but you don't miss whether the tackler bent sufficiently. If they've got the wrong body shape, point them, it's really clear. You don't need a review and as you can see it clearly in real time and you can penalize every time, so they do change their technique*. All the chat about french TV producers goes away.
* Except those that insist it's ok because they've seen it on TV. It leads to a yellow for repeat offending though so one way or another that player isn't a danger for long.
- give the overwhelming advantage to the attacker in a held up situation. Unless the ref can see it clearly held up, it's a try. No more Tmo review there. There are good bits of play holding up a try, but it's not the majority of cases, usually it's just someone falling over (and aren't they illegally preventing the attacker placing the back anyway?)
- bring in the sternum height tackling, or a variation on that. No more head contact or reviews. One big advantage of this, for me, is it's really easy to ref. Yes you miss whether there was actual head contact, but you don't miss whether the tackler bent sufficiently. If they've got the wrong body shape, point them, it's really clear. You don't need a review and as you can see it clearly in real time and you can penalize every time, so they do change their technique*. All the chat about french TV producers goes away.
* Except those that insist it's ok because they've seen it on TV. It leads to a yellow for repeat offending though so one way or another that player isn't a danger for long.
Quote:Dan Wiley
What did the French TV broadcasters do? As I understand it the tmo has access to all pitch facing cameras, they clearly do once they choose to replay an event. So unless the producers had told cameramen not to follow the play, which seems pretty unlikely.
Looks to me like the tmo just missed it. Like all reffing calls or happens.
I think the suggestion is that the French TV crews don't replay the feeds for the ref and/or TMO on the big screen when there has been an incident with one of the French team players.
It certainly appeared for the TV broadcast that any potentially controversial incidents were not replayed, and that was the source of a lot of complaining by Goode etc. Certainly there was at least one incident where Amashukeli looked/gestured to the big screen and seemingly nothing was played.
However, whether that translates to 'the French are concealing footage from the TMO', I suspect not, but the perception arises because of the lack of broadcast replays.
It didn't help that there were those big screen replays that got the crowd going (there was at least one occasion where the ref looked at something again because of the crowd noise) either.
In my mind Nika Amashukeli is a very similar ref to Karl Dickson, they both very confidently get things wrong. What saves Dickson quite often is that he has a good quality English team around him that tell him about the error and correct it. Amashukeli had the utterly useless Ben Whitehouse as TMO. The non English or French officiating teams are just not good enough to be involved with top level rugby.
Disagree with that. Andrea Piardi for example is excellent. As are some of the other non English ones such as Hollie Davidson.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
They are both decent enough individual refs, my point was about the overall quality of the match day officiating teams. It’s ok for a ref to confidently make a decision as long as if it is wrong the rest of the team sweep up and correct it. The best refs are having a constant dialogue to check this and check that while play goes on.
Quote:SJS
I think the suggestion is that the French TV crews don't replay the feeds for the ref and/or TMO on the big screen when there has been an incident with one of the French team players.
It certainly appeared for the TV broadcast that any potentially controversial incidents were not replayed, and that was the source of a lot of complaining by Goode etc. Certainly there was at least one incident where Amashukeli looked/gestured to the big screen and seemingly nothing was played.
Unless it has changed the TMO has access to all live camera streams and, crucially, the broadcast stream (with all its replays). They have an assistant who can replay the various angles when it is identified as required.
So, yes, the TMO missed any suggested offences as they happened. Back here the various replays (and, likely, Healey) would probably have prompted the TMO to have a word in the refs ear.
As I understand it, the Prem the TMO has automatic access to all the angles via the Hawkeye system. The EPCR doesn’t use this; the TMO has two laptops, one watching the game live, one on a short delay. The EPCR process means that the TMO depends on the TV director to provide footage in order to review an incident.
You are correct DL.
As i posted above:
"Tony Spreadbury addressed the issue of broadcaster control of replays in “Ask the Ref”.
He told us that EPCR lays down ground rules for broadcasters on providing replay footage when requested by refs, at the beginning of each season."
This, he told us, was because some broadcasters chose not to show replays from angles that incriminated or disadvantaged the home side. He specifically referenced the French broadcaster. He & his team meet all EPCR broadcasters to agree ref/TMO control of replays at the beginning of each season.
To be clear, that means the ref & TMO can request what they require to be shown -it does not automatically follow that they see all angles or. that the broadcaster complies promptly with their request. Hence the comments (however poorly informed or expressed) by commentators and (argued in measured tones) by J van Graan (who was careful to compliment the officials).
PG
As i posted above:
"Tony Spreadbury addressed the issue of broadcaster control of replays in “Ask the Ref”.
He told us that EPCR lays down ground rules for broadcasters on providing replay footage when requested by refs, at the beginning of each season."
This, he told us, was because some broadcasters chose not to show replays from angles that incriminated or disadvantaged the home side. He specifically referenced the French broadcaster. He & his team meet all EPCR broadcasters to agree ref/TMO control of replays at the beginning of each season.
To be clear, that means the ref & TMO can request what they require to be shown -it does not automatically follow that they see all angles or. that the broadcaster complies promptly with their request. Hence the comments (however poorly informed or expressed) by commentators and (argued in measured tones) by J van Graan (who was careful to compliment the officials).
PG
Congrats UBB and on to the final. I’m neutral where Irish teams are concerned - I don’t care who beats them. Well, Leinster anyway.
As for the officiating, I guess we got the rub against saints and this time we didn’t. Or maybe Amashukeli“s head is still spinning from Josh B taking him out a few weeks back.
Anyway, no sour grapes here. Best club comp on the planet for me. Or should be. If only they’d sort out the joke of the qualification and group stages.
Must have been ten years back that spreaders first commented on the tmo at ask the ref. On that occasion he referenced a game the preceding weekend when Barnsey was about to blow time when the saffas, trailing by a point or two, knocked on under the posts. The home broadcaster put endless replays of an offence prior to that on the big screen until Barnes had no choice but to review. Saffas got a pen and win. I really thought this would have been sorted by now, esp for such a high profile event.
Hennessy is gonna be good. Didn’t really look out of place in that company.
As for the officiating, I guess we got the rub against saints and this time we didn’t. Or maybe Amashukeli“s head is still spinning from Josh B taking him out a few weeks back.
Anyway, no sour grapes here. Best club comp on the planet for me. Or should be. If only they’d sort out the joke of the qualification and group stages.
Must have been ten years back that spreaders first commented on the tmo at ask the ref. On that occasion he referenced a game the preceding weekend when Barnsey was about to blow time when the saffas, trailing by a point or two, knocked on under the posts. The home broadcaster put endless replays of an offence prior to that on the big screen until Barnes had no choice but to review. Saffas got a pen and win. I really thought this would have been sorted by now, esp for such a high profile event.
Hennessy is gonna be good. Didn’t really look out of place in that company.
Quote:Devonport Lad
As I understand it, the Prem the TMO has automatic access to all the angles via the Hawkeye system. The EPCR doesn’t use this; the TMO has two laptops, one watching the game live, one on a short delay. The EPCR process means that the TMO depends on the TV director to provide footage in order to review an incident.
If you are correct, that is frankly a rank amateur arrangement, and needs addressing.
I hope we cite. It will seem like sour grapes but it's the only way EPRC are going to be forced to address what is, at the very least, a long standing issue of perception. Being "good chaps" about this is not going to be enough.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
I don't expect anyone to know on here necessarily but is it possible that there may be footage of the various camera angles that could be subsequently recovered and used as part of a question to the broadcaster?
I recall a 6N game in Paris a couple of seasons ago where only after the match was over did some extra footage emerge of a contentious decision that could have gone against France.
The pundits picked over it with the stadium nearly empty behind them.
My brain was saying 'where was this 20 minutes ago' but the live team didn't want to pull at that thread....
I would assume the footage is stored somewhere as it might be needed as a standard process for any disciplinary issues arising.
Think of it as a rugby black box. If the broadcaster is completely innocent, and that is entirely possible, then they won't mind releasing what they have and explaining what happened.
I recall a 6N game in Paris a couple of seasons ago where only after the match was over did some extra footage emerge of a contentious decision that could have gone against France.
The pundits picked over it with the stadium nearly empty behind them.
My brain was saying 'where was this 20 minutes ago' but the live team didn't want to pull at that thread....
I would assume the footage is stored somewhere as it might be needed as a standard process for any disciplinary issues arising.
Think of it as a rugby black box. If the broadcaster is completely innocent, and that is entirely possible, then they won't mind releasing what they have and explaining what happened.
I guess that footage must be available as I would imagine officials use it for performance review and in citing hearings
Whether they would ever consider releasing that to the public is another question entirely though.
Just as a general comment and in light of the other thread from Sundays game I think it’s a good sign that the consensus here seems to be that we got a really poor deal from some decisions but not claiming we obviously would have won otherwise or that UBB don’t deserve their spot.
Whether they would ever consider releasing that to the public is another question entirely though.
Just as a general comment and in light of the other thread from Sundays game I think it’s a good sign that the consensus here seems to be that we got a really poor deal from some decisions but not claiming we obviously would have won otherwise or that UBB don’t deserve their spot.
It's real amateur hour if the tmo is only watching the TV footage and has very limited ability to selectively watch. If that's the case in Europe, ditch the whole concept of tmos because it's pointless at best and at worst it's actually making the game less fair.
It’s interesting that this is getting the level of headlines it is, it certainly supports what many of us have complained about for years.
It probably requires a united Premiership effort to lobby EPCR to achieve change, maybe URC too.
It probably requires a united Premiership effort to lobby EPCR to achieve change, maybe URC too.
Quote:P G Tips
This, he told us, was because some broadcasters chose not to show replays from angles that incriminated or disadvantaged the home side. He specifically referenced the French broadcaster. He & his team meet all EPCR broadcasters to agree ref/TMO control of replays at the beginning of each season.
PG
If that's the case and Spreaders is happy for it to be on the record then the Club, PREM Rugby and even RFU should be approaching him with a view to getting this insight to Telegraph, Times etc journos. Strike while the iron's hot and use this to put pressure on World Rugby to level the playing field.
edit: just clocked dcsh's comment above virtually saying the same. Hopefully this won't be the last we hear about this
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:04:21:23:31 by Barfboy.
PersonallyI hope we do not cite - as I do think that could lead to "sour grapes" pushback, but completely agree with Barfboy that a coordinated appeal to EPCR could be most persuasive.
As for footage, I think that the phots shipwrecked shows above (at 10:52)- especially the first one - give enough indication that EPCR need to investigate and to come up with stronger solutions.
PG
As for footage, I think that the phots shipwrecked shows above (at 10:52)- especially the first one - give enough indication that EPCR need to investigate and to come up with stronger solutions.
PG
Citings are for acts that meet the red card threshold and I don’t think that these do - there is mitigation there. In my view any citings would be unsuccessful and wouldn’t change the result in any event.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Agreed - citing's are irrelevant. But using the traction this has had so far to try and force some meaningful change for English/URC clubs has got to be worth a punt.
The French teams already have a salary cap advantage, they don't the TV replay one too.
The French teams already have a salary cap advantage, they don't the TV replay one too.
If you want to keep it in the public eye you have to cite do you not? Even if it is dismissed. If it makes no difference as Matt says.
Sometimes you prosecute for political, practical or strategic reasons even with weak evidence.
I get we don't want to winge but its the big picture to consider. Otherwise it could happen again in the future.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Sometimes you prosecute for political, practical or strategic reasons even with weak evidence.
I get we don't want to winge but its the big picture to consider. Otherwise it could happen again in the future.
I think if it is the big picture you want to influence then the support needs to be big- citing would be the representation of one club- which is why I prefer Barfboy's suggestion - if possible get the whole Prem behind the point, so it cannot be dismissed as sour grapes but shown as a concern for a significant number of clubs.
PG
PG
Possibly PG but if you cite that becomes the vehicle. At the hearing you need evidence, you state your case with photos, footage etc. It then highlights the fact that the footage available now was not available at the time. The panel would have a chair thats legally qualified. In the interests of natural justice questions would be asked.
The referees would defend themselves stating there was no choice.
That is the point that other Prem clubs show their support. Its all very well doing the 'sporting thing' but lets face it this muddle needs to be corrected.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
The referees would defend themselves stating there was no choice.
That is the point that other Prem clubs show their support. Its all very well doing the 'sporting thing' but lets face it this muddle needs to be corrected.
Just announced: independent tv director to be in charge of the Final.
An admission of guilt? Who knows. Hopefully it stays that way in future (including 6N games).
An admission of guilt? Who knows. Hopefully it stays that way in future (including 6N games).
grauniad reporting that an independent TV director will be in place for the final. Which is nice.
[www.theguardian.com]
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:05:03:49:10 by joethefanatic.
[www.theguardian.com]
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:05:03:49:10 by joethefanatic.
Quote:Barfboy
Just announced: independent tv director to be in charge of the Final.
An admission of guilt? Who knows. Hopefully it stays that way in future (including 6N games).
Well given the final is in Bilbao, which is in Spain, unless RTE or TF2 were going to be made responsible for the coverage, itb was always going to be independent.
So something of a disingenious announcement by EPCR
[www.rugbypass.com]
Hennessy and Muir make the composite semi final team of the weekend. Any news on Muir's injury yet?
Hennessy and Muir make the composite semi final team of the weekend. Any news on Muir's injury yet?
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:Barfboy
Just announced: independent tv director to be in charge of the Final.
An admission of guilt? Who knows. Hopefully it stays that way in future (including 6N games).
Well given the final is in Bilbao, which is in Spain, unless RTE or TF2 were going to be made responsible for the coverage, itb was always going to be independent.
So something of a disingenious announcement by EPCR
Despite the fact EPCR clearly got the final they wanted perhaps they realise the cheating by French TV was a step too far this time.
As DB says, its a bit of a meaningless statement. STOP PRESSS : "Neutral producer at neutral venue!"
For me, if its as described, the thing to come from this is the European TMO system isn't worth having. However neutral the producers if the TMO effectively can't review the things they've seen then what's the point in it? Get a decent system or get rid of it.
For me, if its as described, the thing to come from this is the European TMO system isn't worth having. However neutral the producers if the TMO effectively can't review the things they've seen then what's the point in it? Get a decent system or get rid of it.
Quote:Dorset BoyQuote:Barfboy
Just announced: independent tv director to be in charge of the Final.
An admission of guilt? Who knows. Hopefully it stays that way in future (including 6N games).
Well given the final is in Bilbao, which is in Spain, unless RTE or TF2 were going to be made responsible for the coverage, itb was always going to be independent.
So something of a disingenious announcement by EPCR
True. Use this - and Spreaders' comments - to lobby EPCR saying that it doesn't go far enough. Hopefully we hear from PREM Rugby and a few others in the coming days.
Hard lines guys. Your boys fought like hell and looked a level above what any other English team has produced in Europe this year. Bordeaux in Bordeaux is an almost impossible task though for many reasons. You'll learn and come back an even better rugby team for the run in at home I have zero doubt about it.
Home refereeing (using the term loosely to mean everything from how easily swayed the man int he middle is by a baying crowd to french tv directors possibly being selective with replays) is a blight on the modern game I'm growing increasingly frustrated with as it is robbing the game of jeopardy. Both semi finals were great but you knew who would win each because in reality the home advantage tariff has grown from being worth a single score to being worth two or three.
You guys were hard done by but there are also rugby reasons you lost the game (lineout, hesitancy to pull the trigger on turnover ball occasionally etc.). Complaining vociferously now about home side decisions, yet being so willing to deny they happened in your favour in the quarter final makes all of the clamouring from fans and club management lose credibility.
Complain about the whole problem - not just when it costs your club.
Home refereeing (using the term loosely to mean everything from how easily swayed the man int he middle is by a baying crowd to french tv directors possibly being selective with replays) is a blight on the modern game I'm growing increasingly frustrated with as it is robbing the game of jeopardy. Both semi finals were great but you knew who would win each because in reality the home advantage tariff has grown from being worth a single score to being worth two or three.
You guys were hard done by but there are also rugby reasons you lost the game (lineout, hesitancy to pull the trigger on turnover ball occasionally etc.). Complaining vociferously now about home side decisions, yet being so willing to deny they happened in your favour in the quarter final makes all of the clamouring from fans and club management lose credibility.
Complain about the whole problem - not just when it costs your club.
Wrench - there is a big difference between referee's interpretation (which is what got Pollock carded in the QF), and what happens when the TMO is denied the replays to assess foul play. The photos posted clearly show head contact, but none were reviewed. Purely because the system is a joke.
We had our chances, and in particular the overthrown lineout deep in their 22 which would have really changed momentum had he held it and scored. Add in the 4 silly knock ons.
No one has denied there were plenty of rugby reasons why we lost. But had there been 2 x 20 minute red cards for Coleman and Lucu, the result may just have been different.
For everyone's sake, the replay system used on Sunday needs to be binned and a system fit for purpose put in place.
We had our chances, and in particular the overthrown lineout deep in their 22 which would have really changed momentum had he held it and scored. Add in the 4 silly knock ons.
No one has denied there were plenty of rugby reasons why we lost. But had there been 2 x 20 minute red cards for Coleman and Lucu, the result may just have been different.
For everyone's sake, the replay system used on Sunday needs to be binned and a system fit for purpose put in place.
A voluntary independent TV producer for the final doesn't solve the basic issue. It needs a barnstorming campaign to wake people up.
Thing is I just don't think that is JvG's or Bath's style.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Thing is I just don't think that is JvG's or Bath's style.
Quote:Wrench
Hard lines guys. Your boys fought like hell and looked a level above what any other English team has produced in Europe this year. Bordeaux in Bordeaux is an almost impossible task though for many reasons. You'll learn and come back an even better rugby team for the run in at home I have zero doubt about it.
Home refereeing (using the term loosely to mean everything from how easily swayed the man int he middle is by a baying crowd to french tv directors possibly being selective with replays) is a blight on the modern game I'm growing increasingly frustrated with as it is robbing the game of jeopardy. Both semi finals were great but you knew who would win each because in reality the home advantage tariff has grown from being worth a single score to being worth two or three.
You guys were hard done by but there are also rugby reasons you lost the game (lineout, hesitancy to pull the trigger on turnover ball occasionally etc.). Complaining vociferously now about home side decisions, yet being so willing to deny they happened in your favour in the quarter final makes all of the clamouring from fans and club management lose credibility.
Complain about the whole problem - not just when it costs your club.
So - to clarify - you wouldn't be in favour of a neutral tv network in charge of important Saints' games in France in future?
And there's no need to change an obvious French advantage that has been in place for literal decades?
I believe Wrench that we are complaining about the whole problem. It is the overall issue of -effectively- tampering with evidence that we are griping about, not the result.
PG
PG
Good of Will Kelleher to look into it the way he did. I do think it will lead to a change for EPCR (or at least Champions Cup) games to the Level 2 system he describes which would be a good outcome. Our next visit to France could be very tricky if it doesn't change!
From what I can see Wrench is talking about the home advance having a disproportionate effect on refs these days. I'm not sure its anything new and home advantage is home advantage. I have some sympathy in that the style of a ref, and how they work on the day, can basically dictate the winner. I don't think it always goes with the home team though.
I think they need to get a proper TMO system across the game. They just need to mandate that all the feeds are provided to the TMO who can free select ones to review and go back at will and review events. I wonder if they could filter out crowd noise? But just take producers and commentators out entirely. I think that will happen with time.
The question of home advantage in semis etc is difficult. No one wants half empty neutral venue with no atmosphere. I long to return to a 4 pool, top two go through competition. The a 1/4 is easy, the team that tops gets home advantage. That seems fair reward. The semi is somewhat harder, if top 1st place teams meet (or even second place) assessing their relative group performance is difficult. A top placed group-of-death winner has probably done much better than someone from an easy pool, but their stats probably look worse. Play home and away? But there's already too many games. So as I see it, its give a team home advance based on a fairly tenuous criteria or play Infront of 10 men and a dog. I'd probably go with the former.
I think they need to get a proper TMO system across the game. They just need to mandate that all the feeds are provided to the TMO who can free select ones to review and go back at will and review events. I wonder if they could filter out crowd noise? But just take producers and commentators out entirely. I think that will happen with time.
The question of home advantage in semis etc is difficult. No one wants half empty neutral venue with no atmosphere. I long to return to a 4 pool, top two go through competition. The a 1/4 is easy, the team that tops gets home advantage. That seems fair reward. The semi is somewhat harder, if top 1st place teams meet (or even second place) assessing their relative group performance is difficult. A top placed group-of-death winner has probably done much better than someone from an easy pool, but their stats probably look worse. Play home and away? But there's already too many games. So as I see it, its give a team home advance based on a fairly tenuous criteria or play Infront of 10 men and a dog. I'd probably go with the former.
It is not the only incidence of TV blindness to have occurred:
STORMERS WERE EXPOSED TO THE VAGARIES IN TOULON
Indeed, DHL Stormers fans might cast their minds back a few weeks to the round of 16 Champions Cup tie against Toulon. That wasn’t an issue around head hits, but the final move of the game, where the Stormers were sure they had scored what would have been the winning try.
The attitude to the French television directors in general was summed up a commentator at Toulon’s following game against Glasgow when he suggested that had the French television producers found another angle when the referee was searching for clarity on whether the ball had been grounded or not it would have been the Stormers and not Toulon playing in the Glasgow quarterfinal. Source
The problem you have is that a large part of the current strength of French rugby is based on a lucrative TV deal. See the conflict?
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
STORMERS WERE EXPOSED TO THE VAGARIES IN TOULON
Indeed, DHL Stormers fans might cast their minds back a few weeks to the round of 16 Champions Cup tie against Toulon. That wasn’t an issue around head hits, but the final move of the game, where the Stormers were sure they had scored what would have been the winning try.
The attitude to the French television directors in general was summed up a commentator at Toulon’s following game against Glasgow when he suggested that had the French television producers found another angle when the referee was searching for clarity on whether the ball had been grounded or not it would have been the Stormers and not Toulon playing in the Glasgow quarterfinal. Source
The problem you have is that a large part of the current strength of French rugby is based on a lucrative TV deal. See the conflict?
Wouldn't mind ditching the play-offs altogether in the Prem (yes - discussed ad nauseam, argument for play offs put to bed long ago etc) - in exchange for home/away 18 game proper old league, with relegation/promotion to/from the Champ. Reduce the number of teams going into the Champions Cup, automatically relegate 1, send 1 more to a play-off - ought to keep pretty much every game alive, especially with the salary cap. Tinker with the Bonus Point system if a way can be contrived to keep the interest going to the bitter end (in-game, and in league places).
From a player welfare perspective, I reckon it's these extra, Test-match intensity play-offs/finals, which inevitably involve the International players, that are most damaging. Imagine, for example, that you are Sam Underhill and notionally we'd made the CRC Final, and the GP Final, and then you're straight on the plane to SA ....
From a player welfare perspective, I reckon it's these extra, Test-match intensity play-offs/finals, which inevitably involve the International players, that are most damaging. Imagine, for example, that you are Sam Underhill and notionally we'd made the CRC Final, and the GP Final, and then you're straight on the plane to SA ....
I believe a neutral venue for the semis is only fair and right, but neutral cannot mean in the home town / city of one of the participants.
So, sorry Leinster, you go to Limerick or Belfast, or Liverpool or Manchester (thousands head from Dublin to Liverpool / Manchester to watch football each week).
Bordeaux, play elsewhere in France.
Quins / Sarries have to play outside London, etc
So, sorry Leinster, you go to Limerick or Belfast, or Liverpool or Manchester (thousands head from Dublin to Liverpool / Manchester to watch football each week).
Bordeaux, play elsewhere in France.
Quins / Sarries have to play outside London, etc
I personally do think that Bath got away with a couple in the 1/4f and then UBB had the same in the 1/2f. I don’t think that anyone on here has said that the UBB result was unfair in the end though. It’s definitely an area which could be subject to improvement at the top of the game though, ie make the TMO and refs jobs as easy as possible - present them with the information and let them decide (whether we agree with that decision or not). For example in the case of the Pollock tackle the ref saw it and gave it his view - more camera angles wouldn’t have changed that. I. The case of the Roots punch / slap it may have resulted in a straight red (again didn’t matter at that point of the game).
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[quote Devonport Lad]
Charlieboa, I really hope you’re right but I’ve got a nagging feeling that the job of making a home semifinal just got a whole lot harder. Assuming that we beat Newcastle, we still need an away win (I think) to avoid an all or nothing last game against Tigers. /quote]
Can't help feeling that, this is a cup-half-empty view of things.
My viewpoint: After last weekend's results, we can lose away to both Exeter and Bristol and still clinch second if we beat Tigers at home in the final regular season game, which we would want to win well under any circumstances.
This means we could (not saying we will) field Purples type sides at Exeter & Bristol. They have demonstrated at Sale and Saints that they are more than capable of winning those games . I'm quite sure they could also do the job at home v Newcastle too. This gives JvG the option to rest as many as he needs to over the next 4 weekends in preparation for the final 3-match push: Tigers, SF, F.
BATH supporter since 1975
Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart
Charlieboa, I really hope you’re right but I’ve got a nagging feeling that the job of making a home semifinal just got a whole lot harder. Assuming that we beat Newcastle, we still need an away win (I think) to avoid an all or nothing last game against Tigers. /quote]
Can't help feeling that, this is a cup-half-empty view of things.
My viewpoint: After last weekend's results, we can lose away to both Exeter and Bristol and still clinch second if we beat Tigers at home in the final regular season game, which we would want to win well under any circumstances.
This means we could (not saying we will) field Purples type sides at Exeter & Bristol. They have demonstrated at Sale and Saints that they are more than capable of winning those games . I'm quite sure they could also do the job at home v Newcastle too. This gives JvG the option to rest as many as he needs to over the next 4 weekends in preparation for the final 3-match push: Tigers, SF, F.
BATH supporter since 1975
Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart
There is one "huge" factor that everyone seems to have missed and it has nothing to do with how good UBB are or any missed replay footage.
Wearing the black euro kit Bath beat Munster, Castres, Edinburgh, Saracens and Northampton. 100% won!
But wearing the white away kit Bath lost to Toulon and UBB. 0% won!
Got to scrap the awful white kit next year if we want to have a chance
.
Wearing the black euro kit Bath beat Munster, Castres, Edinburgh, Saracens and Northampton. 100% won!
But wearing the white away kit Bath lost to Toulon and UBB. 0% won!
Got to scrap the awful white kit next year if we want to have a chance
. Quote:Barfboy
"French broadcaster hits back at Bath's TMO criticism"
[www.bbc.co.uk]
This story has got legs
This has strong ‘we’ve investigated ourselves and we’ve done nothing wrong’ vibes
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
What's the deal with the mouth-guards that record G-Forces. It would seem they weren't worn in this game? Are they not mandated now. Seems like something that should be changed if not although I understand many players don't like them.
Quote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:Barfboy
"French broadcaster hits back at Bath's TMO criticism"
[www.bbc.co.uk]
This story has got legs
This has strong ‘we’ve investigated ourselves and we’ve done nothing wrong’ vibes
Andy Goode has stated on his podcast that he could hear the TMO asking for more angles, and the director refusing/telling him they didn’t have any - his point being that as a commentator he had the responsibility to tell the audience what was happening and explain why we weren’t seeing replays.
He’s gone pretty hard, if you can catch a clip on Instagram or Twitter then it’s worth it.
Quote:BathRobQuote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:Barfboy
"French broadcaster hits back at Bath's TMO criticism"
[www.bbc.co.uk]
This story has got legs
This has strong ‘we’ve investigated ourselves and we’ve done nothing wrong’ vibes
Andy Goode has stated on his podcast that he could hear the TMO asking for more angles, and the director refusing/telling him they didn’t have any - his point being that as a commentator he had the responsibility to tell the audience what was happening and explain why we weren’t seeing replays.
He’s gone pretty hard, if you can catch a clip on Instagram or Twitter then it’s worth it.
Yes, have seen a lot of this. I was (initially) surprised that so many commentators and podcasters leapt into Goode when he responded - somewhat intemperately - to Squidge.
Now I get that Goode is far from universally popular, and indeed knowing he will be commenting on a game elicits groans from me. That does not mean every single point he makes is incorrect, and in this instance his role actually gives us inside info into what did - and didn’t- occur.
I also suspect there is a strong reflex by certain podcasts and YouTubers to use any opportunity to kick against legacy media and defend’one of their own’.
’’Paint the whole world with a rainbow”
Quote:Toast and MarmiteQuote:Barfboy
"French broadcaster hits back at Bath's TMO criticism"
[www.bbc.co.uk]
This story has got legs
This has strong ‘we’ve investigated ourselves and we’ve done nothing wrong’ vibes
French broadcaster caught cheating and doesn't like it so makes meaningless nonsense statement.
It’s funny how we see different referees I think Piardi is no where near international quality!
I think Amashukeli is normally very good and don’t think he had a bad game on Sunday! Yes he reacted to the crowd on at least one occasion but the blame their lies with EPCR and the lack of Neutral venues for SFs.
I still think Pearce is the best of the English referees.
Hollie is very good.
Can’t stand Brace and still not sure about Brousset.
What does constantly amaze me is that World Rugby and other organisations appointing referees think they can put 4 random officials together and it will make a good team!!
Have the set of officials working together as a team for a series of games and I am certain things would improve!
I think Amashukeli is normally very good and don’t think he had a bad game on Sunday! Yes he reacted to the crowd on at least one occasion but the blame their lies with EPCR and the lack of Neutral venues for SFs.
I still think Pearce is the best of the English referees.
Hollie is very good.
Can’t stand Brace and still not sure about Brousset.
What does constantly amaze me is that World Rugby and other organisations appointing referees think they can put 4 random officials together and it will make a good team!!
Have the set of officials working together as a team for a series of games and I am certain things would improve!
Your last paragraph, tigersimon was the methodolgy of Tony Spreadbury when he headed Premiership referees. I think, but cannot be certain, that he follows that principle now that he heads EPCR Officials.
PG
PG
What always amazes me is that casual fans, most of which have never officiated at any level in their lives and still more who would never be able to pass the World Rugby Laws of the Game exam consistently moan about the top Referees being ‘wrong’ and others not being good enough to officiate at whatever level. The reality is that they are, they have passed the various stages to get where they are (ie at the very top of the game, same as the players they are officiating). The are audited every single time they officiate. Make no mistake these refs are the best of the best and know more about the Laws and Law Interpretation than the rest of us mere mortals put together. This is a simple fact, ie they don’t just pull these men and women off the street and ask them to blow a whistle, they are professionals and without them there would be no game of rugby.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:
Thanks AM180.
I have just listened & what he says about different systems is true - almost verbatim what the head of EPCR refs explained.
I am no fan of Goode but I think we must believe him here as his summary of the EPCR TMO arrangements is spot on.
PG
I suspect Andy Goode will turn into a half-decent pundit/commentator. He's spent a bit of time churning out his share of clickbait stuff - but I guess you have to do that to carve out a bit of a 'position'. But, he was a very successful professional rugby player, and he certainly wasn't someone who 'played the first 10 metres in his legs', so he must have a pretty decent rugby brain!
I'm surprised the TMOs aren't livid about all this though, and they'd get listened to. Just imagine you're trying to do your job, including protecting player's safety, and a TV producer refuses to give you angles you know exist, that they can give you in other matches and will be on the internet later. Instead you are made to look incompetent.
By all accounts this isn't an isolated incident, so it wouldn't be just one refs making this complaint.
I don't know what to make of that, but it seems an effective way to get improvements. Get the refs to complain.
By all accounts this isn't an isolated incident, so it wouldn't be just one refs making this complaint.
I don't know what to make of that, but it seems an effective way to get improvements. Get the refs to complain.
On another theme, Arundell and Muir apparently named in EPCR team of the weekend
Quote:gaz59
On another theme, Arundell and Muir apparently named in EPCR team of the weekend
Hennessey and Muir?
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:gaz59
On another theme, Arundell and Muir apparently named in EPCR team of the weekend
Hennessey and Muir?
All three.
Four UBB forwards.
Quote:tigersimonQuote:joethefanaticQuote:gaz59
On another theme, Arundell and Muir apparently named in EPCR team of the weekend
Hennessey and Muir?
All three.
Four UBB forwards.
Three seems high for a team that was basically outplayed by UBB!
Horse? - yes. Henry and Louie? - not quite so sure.
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:05:19:29:19 by joethefanatic.
Quote:tigersimonQuote:joethefanaticQuote:gaz59
On another theme, Arundell and Muir apparently named in EPCR team of the weekend
Hennessey and Muir?
All three.
Four UBB forwards.
Well done lads.
[24/25 adoptee: Francois van Wyk]
Quote:BathMatt53Quote:tigersimonQuote:joethefanaticQuote:gaz59
On another theme, Arundell and Muir apparently named in EPCR team of the weekend
Hennessey and Muir?
All three.
Four UBB forwards.
Well done lads.
Arundell's defence can't have been that bad!
Quote:Dan Wiley
I'm surprised the TMOs aren't livid about all this though, and they'd get listened to.
…..
I don't know what to make of that, but it seems an effective way to get improvements. Get the refs to complain.
Dan
There is an article in today’s Times headlined “Referees sick of unreliable replay systems” which states they are “frustrated”.
There is also Andy Goode’s testimony that he heard Ben White, the TMO, asking for more angles & being told they were not available.
PG
This has been going on for years though? And I wouldn't be frustrated if someone was making me look incompetent at my job, I'd be mad as hell. And I'd be listened to, refs are basically a protected species in rugby (rightly), if I go to the sports governing bodies and say "some TV producers in one specific country are making my job impossible and putting rugby players at risk as a result." I think that's going to carry weight. Not just one even, all of them must see this system doesn't work.
Why hasn't that happened?
Why hasn't that happened?
The Andy Goode pile on has been totally over the top in my opinion.
In the interests of balance, I have noticed in previous games I have watched that Goode has a tendency to refer back to contentious issues multiple times after the game has moved on. Perhaps it's his inner sense of injustice, but I can understand why it annoys some people and he could make a small adjustment to his approach and probably be perceived as a better commentator by his detractors.
However, I don't have any complaints whatsoever with his commentary on Sunday, although I can understand why neutrals might take issue. He's sticking up for standards in the game and was outraged at illegal head contact being overlooked, he also has a right to tell viewers what's going on behind the scenes, so those of us who normally watch the Prem, for instance, can understand why we're not seeing what we're used to on Premier Sports.
Another observation I will make is that Goode tends to back English teams in Europe. He's one of those commentators I'd suggest isn't a natural Bath fan, but there was no suggestion of that on Sunday during the game or in his interview with Ollie Lawrence at Farleigh House – fair play.
In the interests of balance, I have noticed in previous games I have watched that Goode has a tendency to refer back to contentious issues multiple times after the game has moved on. Perhaps it's his inner sense of injustice, but I can understand why it annoys some people and he could make a small adjustment to his approach and probably be perceived as a better commentator by his detractors.
However, I don't have any complaints whatsoever with his commentary on Sunday, although I can understand why neutrals might take issue. He's sticking up for standards in the game and was outraged at illegal head contact being overlooked, he also has a right to tell viewers what's going on behind the scenes, so those of us who normally watch the Prem, for instance, can understand why we're not seeing what we're used to on Premier Sports.
Another observation I will make is that Goode tends to back English teams in Europe. He's one of those commentators I'd suggest isn't a natural Bath fan, but there was no suggestion of that on Sunday during the game or in his interview with Ollie Lawrence at Farleigh House – fair play.
Quote:P G TipsQuote:Dan Wiley
I'm surprised the TMOs aren't livid about all this though, and they'd get listened to.
…..
I don't know what to make of that, but it seems an effective way to get improvements. Get the refs to complain.
Dan
There is an article in today’s Times headlined “Referees sick of unreliable replay systems” which states they are “frustrated”.
There is also Andy Goode’s testimony that he heard Ben White, the TMO, asking for more angles & being told they were not available.
PG
Ben Whitehouse. Ben White was otherwise, and rather more successfully, engaged both on Saturday and today
... IMHO, of course.
Now in Honolulu
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:05:05:22:08:04 by joethefanatic.
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:P G TipsQuote:Dan Wiley
I'm surprised the TMOs aren't livid about all this though, and they'd get listened to.
…..
I don't know what to make of that, but it seems an effective way to get improvements. Get the refs to complain.
Dan
There is an article in today’s Times headlined “Referees sick of unreliable replay systems” which states they are “frustrated”.
There is also Andy Goode’s testimony that he heard Ben White, the TMO, asking for more angles & being told they were not available.
PG
Ben Whitehouse. Ben White was otherwise, and rather more successfully, engaged both on Saturday and today
And tonight as well as Arsenal reach a Champions League final. Now watch them slip up against West Ham away.
Quote:joethefanaticQuote:P G TipsQuote:Dan Wiley
I'm surprised the TMOs aren't livid about all this though, and they'd get listened to.
…..
I don't know what to make of that, but it seems an effective way to get improvements. Get the refs to complain.
Dan
There is an article in today’s Times headlined “Referees sick of unreliable replay systems” which states they are “frustrated”.
There is also Andy Goode’s testimony that he heard Ben White, the TMO, asking for more angles & being told they were not available.
PG
Ben Whitehouse. Ben White was otherwise, and rather more successfully, engaged both on Saturday and today
Correct- Ben WhiteHOUSE. Flippin autocorrupt!
PG
Goode for me is meh as a commentator, but as a podcast pundit I really enjoy him and Jim Hamilton together.
I think this whole debacle has really shown how differently the Prem is consumed (via TNT) where we would expect multiple replays and dissection of events. Premier Sports are so poor in comparison, I’d like for the CC to come back to TNT on quality grounds even more than on price grounds!
I think this whole debacle has really shown how differently the Prem is consumed (via TNT) where we would expect multiple replays and dissection of events. Premier Sports are so poor in comparison, I’d like for the CC to come back to TNT on quality grounds even more than on price grounds!
Im halfway through this week's (award winning) RugbyPod and Goode and Jim are talking complete sense - especially highlighting that there are different officiating systems across the various league (orange cards, hawkeye video TMO, 20min reds etc)
The game is far too fragmented and needs complete alignment when it comes to how its officiated
Designed in Scotland | Made in the West Country
The game is far too fragmented and needs complete alignment when it comes to how its officiated
Designed in Scotland | Made in the West Country
Quote:Sans CulottesQuote:Devonport Lad
As I understand it, the Prem the TMO has automatic access to all the angles via the Hawkeye system. The EPCR doesn’t use this; the TMO has two laptops, one watching the game live, one on a short delay. The EPCR process means that the TMO depends on the TV director to provide footage in order to review an incident.
If you are correct, that is frankly a rank amateur arrangement, and needs addressing.
It is. It does.
One thing I'm not clear on though: If play is continuing, can the TMO request footage, or does he have to wait until play stops before he can?
Seem to me neither he or the French producer can do two jobs at once:
TMO: Continue watching live action AND review footage from different angles.
Producer: Continue to put out live action and service the TMO.
So if the ref didn't see anything and allows action to continue, the TMO is stuck with the live feed (and 5s delay of the same thing) and whatever replays the French producer might choose to put out. IF play is stopped, the TMO might be given what he needs. I think that was the substance of the French riposte.
Absolutely unacceptable. I blame EPRC 100% for this. The International/PREM system is better, it is there. AIUI, the only reason for not using it is money.
BATH supporter since 1975
Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart
[www.epcrugby.com]
Very revealing stats!
We had more than enough possession and territory to win, but when UBB had the ball they were far more effective, more meters, more clean breaks, more offloads, more defenders beaten.
In defense, our tackle success was too low. Too narrow defense. Anthony Watson has put out a good analysis of that. Forwards as well as backs too slow to track across (inc TdT).
Lineout success too low. Again!!!
Breakdown good.
Kicking game really worked: 13 retained kicks to 1. Amazing!
Discipline: 10 penalties is OK and as has been discussed ad infinitum already, they should have had at least 2 yellow cards, possibly more.
BATH supporter since 1975
Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart
Very revealing stats!
We had more than enough possession and territory to win, but when UBB had the ball they were far more effective, more meters, more clean breaks, more offloads, more defenders beaten.
In defense, our tackle success was too low. Too narrow defense. Anthony Watson has put out a good analysis of that. Forwards as well as backs too slow to track across (inc TdT).
Lineout success too low. Again!!!
Breakdown good.
Kicking game really worked: 13 retained kicks to 1. Amazing!
Discipline: 10 penalties is OK and as has been discussed ad infinitum already, they should have had at least 2 yellow cards, possibly more.
BATH supporter since 1975
Adopted players:
2015/6 Tom Homer
2016/7 Matt Banahan
2017/8 Jeff Williams
2018/9 Victor Delmas
2019/20 Semesa Rokoduguni
2020/21 Will Stuart
I decided to take a look at the Bordeaux Fans forum.
Really wish I hadn't done that. Several comments that we are winning about the refereeing decisions because we lost and shouldn't have placed a complaint to EPCR.
Little recognition of the problem with the TV.
They seem confused and feel the ref missed infringements by Bath on Toulouse players blaming the referee rather than TV coverage.
Absolutely, dishonest and hypocritical. When you start by saying, "I'm not questioning the refereeing, nor the fact that UBB deserved their victory," but then only talk about the refereeing, and end up filing a complaint, you're hiding behind that excuse and shirking your responsibilities. This attitude was instigated by the British press, and complacently, by a section of the French press, because Bath didn't request to name anyone within 26 hours, and now they're adopting this convenient narrative.
Frankly, it's dishonest, quite unbelievable, I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. A number of things weren't reviewed on Bath's side either, like that very high tackle on Moefana which wasn't even checked, or the clear-out by the number 4 on Coleman once he was on the ground after that supposed head tackle when it was actually his shoulder in the ball (Barbeary even put his elbow away from his body on Coleman's head), anyway... We also have things to say about that.
I think this will all be pushed under the table. French media are very focused on France facing 50% quotas for French content and resisting outside influences.
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
Really wish I hadn't done that. Several comments that we are winning about the refereeing decisions because we lost and shouldn't have placed a complaint to EPCR.
Little recognition of the problem with the TV.
They seem confused and feel the ref missed infringements by Bath on Toulouse players blaming the referee rather than TV coverage.
Absolutely, dishonest and hypocritical. When you start by saying, "I'm not questioning the refereeing, nor the fact that UBB deserved their victory," but then only talk about the refereeing, and end up filing a complaint, you're hiding behind that excuse and shirking your responsibilities. This attitude was instigated by the British press, and complacently, by a section of the French press, because Bath didn't request to name anyone within 26 hours, and now they're adopting this convenient narrative.
Frankly, it's dishonest, quite unbelievable, I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. A number of things weren't reviewed on Bath's side either, like that very high tackle on Moefana which wasn't even checked, or the clear-out by the number 4 on Coleman once he was on the ground after that supposed head tackle when it was actually his shoulder in the ball (Barbeary even put his elbow away from his body on Coleman's head), anyway... We also have things to say about that.
I think this will all be pushed under the table. French media are very focused on France facing 50% quotas for French content and resisting outside influences.
Quote:I can categorically state that NO Bath player laid a finger on a TOULOUSE player during the match!!shipwrecked
They seem confused and feel the ref missed infringements by Bath on Toulouse players blaming the referee rather than TV coverage.
Quote:dcshQuote:I can categorically state that NO Bath player laid a finger on a TOULOUSE player during the match!!shipwrecked
They seem confused and feel the ref missed infringements by Bath on Toulouse players blaming the referee rather than TV coverage.
![[:wor kid:]](/phorum-5.1.15/mods/smileys/images/13.gif "[:wor kid:]")
It's a fair comment from the French fans actually. There is a definite high shot from Quinn Roux about 2-3 minutes into the second half, for instance, that we were lucky to get away with. I genuinely think they are less worried about head contact in France, not that this excuses the lack of a standard approach in the game.
In a statement on the Offy Tarquin states:
There was much debate in the press following our semi-final regarding the process around match footage.
We believe that EPCR should upgrade the technology it deploys to bring it in line with other global elite competitions, recognising that the Investec Champions Cup is the most prestigious club competition in global rugby, and we are making this recommendation to EPCR.
It will be interesting to see if anything happens. The CEO of EPCR is Jacques Raynaud. I do wonder if they are willing to put French TV under pressure given that French rugby is funded by their huge TV deal. I have to say I'm sceptical the graph below shows why French clubs can afford a higher cap.
Rugby union domestic league media rights value (€m)
Tyler Offiah
Opinion is based on assumptions, whereas fact is based on observation or research.
There was much debate in the press following our semi-final regarding the process around match footage.
We believe that EPCR should upgrade the technology it deploys to bring it in line with other global elite competitions, recognising that the Investec Champions Cup is the most prestigious club competition in global rugby, and we are making this recommendation to EPCR.
It will be interesting to see if anything happens. The CEO of EPCR is Jacques Raynaud. I do wonder if they are willing to put French TV under pressure given that French rugby is funded by their huge TV deal. I have to say I'm sceptical the graph below shows why French clubs can afford a higher cap.
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